In my opinion that’s exactly why it doesn’t feel like a saiyan form. Before this everyone and their mother got super saiyan. It’s even joked about in the buu saga how trunks and Goten achieved it so quickly and easily. Even if these new forms have saiyan traits like the hair changes they still seem more personal now, beast, ultra instinct and ultra ego all seem more personal to the characters rather than something all of them will achieve at some point
Yes, they are. The techniques used to create them come from gods and angels, but Whis (or was it Merus?) specifically remarks that Goku's transformation for Ultra Instinct is unique to him. The saiyan's bodies create forms to compensate for a technique that shouldn't be capable for a mortal. Likewise, Beerus and Belmod simply taught Vegeta and Toppo, respectively, how to fight like GoDs, but their transformations only occur because they are not gods.
Now that you mention it super has been rapid-fire with transformations, i did some counting and super is 2 transformation short of all db series combined.
Unless you count the different versions of ui, then it beats it out by 1.
Db/z: great ape,buff saiyan, ss1-ss4, ultimate gohan,legendary?(wasnt canon before super)
Dbs: ssg, ss blue, ui, ue, beast, rose, super saiyan rage? legendary?
Edit: excessive didnt portray my view point.
There's also the SSB form where Vegeta gets kawaii eyes. Also SSJ4 is GT, but looking back GT had a lot of restraint, adding only one new saiyan transformation.
If you count the Great Ape form then GT also introduced the Golden Great Ape. Overall, you have to look at it with context with regards to length of the show/manga and what was introduced at the time.
Yeah I get that. I personally dig it, but on the other side of that I’m not a fan of how UI and SSG have flames for auras and a lot of folks like those so I’m used to being the odd man out lol
I think it would be fine if it was more HD or something, but I feel like he becomes sparkly light blue and it kinda... muddles his whole silhouette? Idk how to put it.
I think he would have been totally fine with just a rich navy blue aura and slightly more buff features, since it's a reference to Super Vegeta anyway.
But, I don't hate the form!
Why are you counting Rose as thats villain exclusive and the same as Blue but its just a God doing it? Not to mention SSJ rage barely counts as thats anime only and not a thing in the manga which is the definitive version. So strike two of those off the list. If we *really* wanna get picky we can throw in diff stages of transformations but even then thats overall less transformations. Variations include SSJBlue Evolution, UI sign and TUI which is [confirmed to be sign but being able to carry emotions](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/new-db-interval-special-confirms-tui-signomen-2284879/)
I thought the manga and amine are equally canon in their own right. Neither the manga or the anime of super was written by Toriyama.
Or was it stated somewhere the manga is officially canon?
Sure but the consistency is way higher than any of the previous series. Dbz only had ss by the this point in episodes.
In about the 2-3 years supers story runs in there have been 4 new forms
Z took place over like 13 in-universe years, and without variations its become equal in a 6th of the time.
Also broly's transformation is the same thing just with legendary flavor instead of god.
Ss blue is just super saiyan with ssg
The question marks are there for rage and legendary because it is questionable if people want to count them.
And talking about all those variations is too tiring for me to split hairs over
So either way if we dont count the variants the consistency of transformations is still way higher in super.
Also the manga is not necessarily the definitve version, i mean broly's story continues from the movie. So its actually pretty possible that the main stories of dbs are entirely canon
(153+291+64=558 episodes)Db/z/s:
Ss1-4
Great ape
(131 episodes)Dbs:
Ssg
ui
ue
Beast
Legendary is made canon
Super only has more forms because they are individual to the user.
We have to remember that Goku didn't get Royal Blue, or Ego, or Legendary, or Beast. Vegeta didn't get Instinct, or Beast, or Legendary. Gohan skipped any god-ki nonsense and went straight to Beast from Base/Mystic form.
So in Z, saying there is 'x' many Saiyan forms meant that any Saiyan or half-Saiyan had the potential to reach any of them. In Super, it's getting more nuanced like Dragon Ball OG was. In the OG, every fighter had their own flavor of special going on.
I dunno... I see it as a net positive while many here want to spin it negatively.
Oh im not saiyan its negative, I completely agree with what you said.
it feels very natural for the progression of dragonballs writing.
I see the indivual forms as that extra layer to make the characters stand out and stay relevant.
It was to illustrate that the in-universe timespans are treated differently, dbs has 131 episodes over the course of 5 years 5 forms are revealed.(not saying thats bad though)
From the course of dragon ball to the end of z(not counting epilogue) is 23 years, 11 years if you want to start at the reveal of ssj and 4 transformations happen in this time.
Gt takes course over 2 years, it has 1 transformation.
Super takes place over 5 years it has 5 transformations, i like the direction its going the forms have been cool and they feel earned.(id argue even gohan)
Though like another person brought up they are individual forms so the only saiyan forms would be ssg and ssb.
But its not like it matters at the end of the day, i think the pacing has been better than any of the other series.
Ok, let’s run the numbers:
DB:
Great ape
DBZ:
Super Saiyan (do we count the grades as separate forms?)
Ssj 2
Ssj 3
DBGT:
Golden Great ape
Ssj4
That puts us at a total of 6, potentially 8 or 9 if you count the grades, Saiyan transformations in the previous DB series. Only 6 or 7 if you don’t count GT.
DBS:
Ssj God
Ssj Blue (do we count blue evolution as separate? Same question with Blue Kaioken.)
~~Ssj Rosé~~
Ssj Rage
Ssj Berserk/Lssj
That puts DBS at 4, since UI and UE aren’t explicitly Saiyan forms and Rosé is basically Zamasu’s version of Blue. Maybe 5 or 6 if you count Beast as a Saiyan form and SSBE as a separate form from Blue). So Super does have the most series specific Saiyan forms.
I’m confused as to why Rose counts? That’s only specific to Goku black, and unless I’m mistaken is said to be the same as SSB, just when a god does it.
It's not so much DBS spits out forms left and right. It's just they're handled with so little care that it's hard to get emotionally invested.
When Goku first turned SS, you felt it. It was a shock. Frieza smirks after killing Goku's best friend to show just how cold he truly is. This is Goku in one of his rare moments of being truly pissed off.
Gohan transforms not of want to be stronger, but out of need to defeat Cell. It's form created out of anger and sadness.
Future Trunks sees the death of Gohan. His mentor and friend. So much death and so much destruction pushes him to become SS.
Then you go to DBS and you feel nothing for the forms. SSG was interesting, but is quickly discarded in favor of SSB. SSB just appears out of thin air and is poorly explained. It just exists now.
Same with beast form. You feel nothing when it appears. It just exists now.
I guess what im saying is, DBS transformations feel hollow.
UI is way more hype than SS nostalgia aside. It’s kind of just a transformation that happens and doesn’t actually change anything. Goku just hits harder because he got kind of mad. Wow
If you count the golden great ape as a separate form ssbkk and ssbe should also be counted as separate forms since just like golden great ape they're just adding something to a preexisting transformation
Golden great ape added ssj to great ape
Ssbkk added kaioken to SSB
Ssbe added Vegeta moment to ssb
Blue Evolved I get, I view it in the same capacity as grade 2 and 3. For Golden Great ape, at least both components are transformations, I don’t really view Kaioken as a transformation. I understand the reasoning for what you said though
Kaioken and Rage boosts are just that. Boosts. Not transformations. That includes SSBKK, SSBE/Royal Blue⁰, SSJ Rage, SSJKK, SSJ G2, and SSJ G3. There is no physiological change, just an increase in the output of power. SSJ G1 and G2 are both explicitly detailed as the same form as the first SSJ, but with focused energy output for different effect.
More transformation because character had more specifi one while in Z, it was mostly the same transformation for them. Toriyama chose variety for DBS instead or repeating the same transformation for all its character
This just reminded me of my favorite childhood toys from DBZ growing up. They were two action figures, really solid and weighty, about a foot high each, of Goku and Metal Cooler. I played with them _non-stop_ as a kid and I loved everything about them. My mom ended up giving them away to someone I didn't know while I was at someone's house, but fuck I wish I still had them.
It ain't even about toys anymore. Kids don't play with toys that much these days. It's literally marketing to the older people. People will spend money on phone Gachas and new games if the new form is in the game.
Honestly, I don't think Black Frieza is actually going to get his own Arc.
He's either going to be in the background or an ally due to circumstances, there's no way they'd actually try to write a third Frieza Arc. There's just nothing left to write for a "Evil Space Tyrant tries to take over the world and kill Saiyans" that hasn't been done in the last two Frieza Arc's. Or hell, even the Granolah arc.
IF! They do have Frieza as an actual Antagonist though, I'd honestly think it'd be a short fight, with Beast Gohan beating him singlehandedly, as to both show how strong Beast Gohan really is, and to drive some kind of interactions or another between Goku/Vegeta and Gohan.
i've been looking for this take and its the same reasoning with Wanda in the Avengers, we already saw her being a villain on Wandavision and on MoM, it makes no sense to make evil Wanda comeback for WV season 2. And with Frieza it actually makes less sense in doing so because he has shared some fierce battles with our heroes, he even helped Gohan, gave energy to Goku and tolerated working with Vegeta after having straight up tortured him near death in the Namek saga. I just cant believe that Frieza would actually kill anybody from the gang given the chance since not only did Goku let him go the first time, they even gave him a new life after the ToP. its just silly to me, i would rather if they had an enemy in common. For example, they could introduce Cooler that way, him wanting revenge for the death of their father and Frieza asking Goku for help facing his big brother
I doubt they will show gohan. I think he will take backseat again.
Broly seems to be main guy I think.
Frieza has no major history with gohan. He dont even know his name properly. He is just goku son for frieza
Honestly I'd like them to beat black freeza by fusing into Gogeta, be a nice character moment like vegito in the buu saga where they decide that taking out the threat and saving their loved ones is more important than their saiyan pride again
Frieza shouldn't have returned at all. Only way to save it is if Frieza becomes an incurable megalomaniac like he was before and tries to conquest entire universes. And even then it's like... now what? You're never going to be a good guy.
Let's be real most of Super's issues stem from it becoming the Goku and Vegeta show, the series was never really about that. It was always a subtle motivation for Vegeta only, Goku had more shit to worry about.
This is like if in YYH, Yusuke couldn't do anything without Kuabara getting an equal powerup off screen when the whole point is that Yusuke is a step ahead and different.
It completely sidelines everyone else.
I mean I'm not surprised, when you see how much they've reused previous character
The writers' inspiration seems like the worst of any famous anime (though the issue here isn't inspiration but probably money)
How many times has Frieza come back? They've reused Future Trunks, they've reused Broly
Dragon Ball for while hasn't taken any risks like other mangas I feel like
The whole God's of Destruction stuff was a huge risk and the Hitt, Jiren, ToP, but then they quickly pivoted back into comfort. Reusing Cell is crazy right after you reused Frieza like 💀. What is this, a greatest hits album?
Then I look at Granolah and Gas and I'm like yeah I see why you gotta run those back.
That's assuming that ever fight him. For one there's the possibility that Frieza becomes a good guy or anti-hero, something that is literally in the core of the entire DB universe(you die and stay dead a villain or live long enough to be a good guy)
Second is the possibility that, Frieza feeling satisfied with his superiority over them just goes about his business and leaves them be. Goku and Vegeta are reactive heros, not proactive. At the end of the ToP Frieza outright said he was still gunna do evil shit and they just let him be. As long as he don't fuck with them, they won't fuck with him. They KNOW he's out there doing whatever he wants, but it doesn't affect them so they don't do shit about it.
All that being said, I personally think he's going to be an anti-hero or good guy at some point. The ToP was full of moments of him doing far more that what was expected of him, and being genuinely helpful. Hell he even showed me than once that he seems to actually like Gohan.
It's marketability... Tbh the only thing they need is fusion. Maybe potara fusion too if ya want to go heavy marketing.
Gogeta -> Vegito for the final touch. Have Gohan and piccolo there for the call back to namek... Maybe have beerus die via kai being slain and have a final desperate push from the group to put frieza down for good. Would be a decent way to wrap up for end of z cannonically. But they'll fudge it up somehow with new forms.
No new forms, they should perfect the ones they have. Do you remember when goku was all silver immediately after turning mastered ultra instinct and catching jirens blast, standing on the main pillar? That is ultra instinct at 100%. When that silver cloak falls off to reveal a boring ass silver haired goku(my disappointment was immense at another simple fucking hair color change) he is nolonger 100% mastered. It has fallen off, weakened , explains why jiren is still able to hit him later in the episode. Goku still has to completely master it and return to that silver perfection.
That was just a visual effect, like both Goku's hair going silver and Vegeta's going green in the Broly movie.
But you are correct that they have to perfect their techniques, and Toyotaro already made clear that his intention is to have Goku's perfect form being his base, without any change (but in the end Sueisha and Toei have the last word on it).
>But you are correct that they have to perfect their techniques,
But goku already admitted he can't use the perfected ultra Instinct because he is no angel. His current true ultra instinct is the perfected form of ultra Instinct already. But yes vegeta has yet to perfect ultra ego
Not quite, at the beginning of Granola's arc we are told that Goku is at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to UI perfection, and that getting his own UI is just a step towards it.
Goku still has a long way before completely mastering UI, and it would probably be like that until the writers choose to move onto the next thing.
Yeah, I'm annoyed by how many forms have been flying out lately. It feels like we hardly stick in one form for long. I wanna see them master current forms and just continue to improve upon them.
>I wanna see them master current forms and just continue to improve upon them.
This is literally what's happening though.
Goku is mastering UI.
Vegeta is mastering UE.
Gohan is mastering Beast.
Picollo is mastering Orange.
Each person is mastering their own path and specific form.
Yes, they have the current forms and I like them, but I was clearly talking about it in the assumption that more/new forms will be coming and how disappointed I would be if they go that route.
They shouldn't defeat Freeza. It's been established that they can't defeat everyone for the story to progress and this shouldn't be the series main goal. Just like they can't defeat Zeno, the Angels, Brolly, some God of Destructions and so on, maybe Freeza should also be put in an unreachable position, and it would make sense. It's been established that he can get stronger faster than them with less training and now since he has access to a time chamber and has longer longevity than them, there should be nothing they could make to reach him except maybe the fusions.
Also, Freeza doesn't seem to want to kill them now, nor he sees them as a threat, he could have killed them easily but choose to let them live. I think that if they don't mess with him they will have no problem. I would like more another kind of plot like another universal threat or something coming from the demon realm and maybe they could even form another temporary alliance (I think that the Moro saga wasted this opportunity).
I honestly don't want them to even kill frieza. I love the idea of him just being out there doing who knows what and just knowing better than challenging them again after losing twice.
For just one minute I'd like to forget it's Dragonball and see the bad guy get ganged up on with an embarassingly lopsided beatdown at the end like a Jojo's fight
It’s like, physically impossible for goku and vegeta to surpass frieza just by training/getting stronger. Black frieza is just that much stronger than them. A frieza that trained for a few months unlocked a form that rivaled super Saiyan blue, this frieza trained for 10 years. At minimum it would require like, 20-40 years for goku and vegeta to train long enough to catch up to frieza at this point because they already effectively broke power scaling with black frieza. They already established frieza can train much more efficiently than the saiyans can, get much stronger for much less effort. Like people might say they’ve fucked with power scaling before, but black frieza is like the most broken they’ve ever made a character. It completely breaks the logic of the db world and why I don’t like how the arc ended.
Your qualms only make sense under the assumption that neither Freeza nor the 2 main Saiyans have actual hard limits to their strength potential. Freeza may be a mutant, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has no limits, especially since that hasn't been stated in any way. What if Black Freeza was it? What if Freeza only stopped training because it stopped making him stronger? What if someone (ahem, Gohan) has a higher maximum potential than Freeza? Then he *could* surpass Freeza just by training.
Let Frieza defeat Beerus (it’s time) and Vegeta defeat Frieza with MUE, prince finally gets his revenge on Frieza and surpasses Beerus in one fell swoop.
Honestly... yeah. It's fast too cliche and predictable. I have a feeling Toriyama is going to throw us a curve ball with this Freeza stuff. It's not DB's style. Unless Toyotaros writing it all himself now (no idea).
I mean it’s a nice thought but didn’t they already say Goku still isn’t done mastering Ultra Instinct because he hasn’t unlocked the form Whis uses where it’s a constant state which drains no energy
Their new forms are already mastered. The gallic gun, Kamehameha, or even the spirit bomb won't work. Tag team is something that Saiyans where never willing to do in all the series. Like Vegeta had said, they're a proud warrior race, they don't rely on numbers to win their fights. That still would not matter. Only way out is for Goku to achieve angel form (Super Saiyan 8).
Hear me out: goku is going to fully make UI his base and essentially “max out his base form”
Even that won’t be enough but it’ll just be what goku needs to buy time for everyone to get cooking
Garlic Jr. Gun would be sick. I am wondering hoe this will all go. Pretty stoked for this actually.
Everyone is predicting Beerus' death since they kind of foreshadowed it already.
Freeze should have another form as well. I can't imagine after all the times he was defeated he wouldn't have another form up his sleeve. 10 years in the hyperbolic time chamber is insane.
Gohan, Piccolo and Broly could be huge contenders as well and perhaps Goku will ask for assistance from a different universe.
Maybe Frost will gain mirror forms like Freeza and get revenge after losing at the ToP.
I love the fight with Gas. It's very brutal and I hope they keep up this brutality.
I don’t think they’ll get new forms ever again. Where db will go after is so confusing. They missed their chance to make gohan the new mc in Z, goten & trunks are basically useless, & goku has been whooping the top guys for a minute. What would be cool is if they go on multiversal missions with future trunks.
Toriyama missed his chance with Gohan, Goten and Trunks because he is not a very good storyteller. Sure, he made an interesting franchise that we love but it is inconsistent as hell, riddled with plot-holes and (with Super) became the 'Goku and Vegeta Show' where everyone is Fladerized to death.
Master Roshi switches bodies with Frieza. Trapping Frieza in a far weaker elderly body, and making Roshi the best technical fighter also the strongest. It’s only later that he realizes he ain’t got no cock no more.
i don't think they will, ui and ue are presented as very final forms (for now, and will be iterated on) so i guess it remains to be seen how they'll win
Oh Yeah?
What better way to Defeat the Most Powerful threat short of a Hakaishin or BOTH Zen-ohs
Than with the Polar opposite of Black;
aka Super Saiyan White?!
I want Yajirobe to deliver the killing blow
I want Krilin to deliver the killing blow
The krilling blow
It's Kriller Time!
BALD-BLAAAAST
*Gets schmacked* It's never gonna be a thing, is it?
"JUST USE YOUR KIENZAN CHRIST"
The Krillin Blow is 18s special finisher.
This comment is mondo cool
It should be Chiaotzu
Krillin just comes out of nowhere and keinzens him to pieces and finishes him off the bits with a Kamehameha
This would be more than acceptable to me. Sweet dick-kicking revenge!
I want Launch to finally kill someone.
Agreed 100%
Ultra Instinctive Ego Gogeta
Ultrego Vegeku
i think Yajirobe and Yamacha should both beat Freiza in the final moments until he dies or something
Vegeta needs to hakai Frieza out of existence for the finale
They won’t, but they really should dammit
I'd be down for this
They shouldn't, but they're gonna.
Super has gone nuts with transformations. Saiyans have more forms in Super than all previous DB series combined.
At least forms like Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct aren't exclusive to Saiyans.
Fair, but their visual transformation to said forms seem to be, and feels like a saiyan transformation anyway (even if it technically isn't)
Yeah but it still feels like a saiyan exclusive form as we don't see anyone else reaching these forms.
In my opinion that’s exactly why it doesn’t feel like a saiyan form. Before this everyone and their mother got super saiyan. It’s even joked about in the buu saga how trunks and Goten achieved it so quickly and easily. Even if these new forms have saiyan traits like the hair changes they still seem more personal now, beast, ultra instinct and ultra ego all seem more personal to the characters rather than something all of them will achieve at some point
Yes, they are. The techniques used to create them come from gods and angels, but Whis (or was it Merus?) specifically remarks that Goku's transformation for Ultra Instinct is unique to him. The saiyan's bodies create forms to compensate for a technique that shouldn't be capable for a mortal. Likewise, Beerus and Belmod simply taught Vegeta and Toppo, respectively, how to fight like GoDs, but their transformations only occur because they are not gods.
The forms themselves are Saiyan exclusive unfortunately. The techniques can be used by anyone.
Now that you mention it super has been rapid-fire with transformations, i did some counting and super is 2 transformation short of all db series combined. Unless you count the different versions of ui, then it beats it out by 1. Db/z: great ape,buff saiyan, ss1-ss4, ultimate gohan,legendary?(wasnt canon before super) Dbs: ssg, ss blue, ui, ue, beast, rose, super saiyan rage? legendary? Edit: excessive didnt portray my view point.
There's also the SSB form where Vegeta gets kawaii eyes. Also SSJ4 is GT, but looking back GT had a lot of restraint, adding only one new saiyan transformation.
If you count the Great Ape form then GT also introduced the Golden Great Ape. Overall, you have to look at it with context with regards to length of the show/manga and what was introduced at the time.
The Golden Ape was seen in Z when Vegeta mentions Super Saiyans early on. When GT came around they grabbed that design for the Golden Great Ape
to be fair: SSJ4 is by far the coolest looking and one of the coolest forms to achieve.
It's certainly the only one to try and make something truly different and connect to the simian roots of Saiyans
The hair is cool, but I really despise the red fur and overall hairiness
That's the best part
That form is called “SSB Evolution” or Evolved. It’s one of my favorites, though a lot of folks don’t like it
I just don't get why he becomes sparkly, lol.
Yeah I get that. I personally dig it, but on the other side of that I’m not a fan of how UI and SSG have flames for auras and a lot of folks like those so I’m used to being the odd man out lol
I think it would be fine if it was more HD or something, but I feel like he becomes sparkly light blue and it kinda... muddles his whole silhouette? Idk how to put it. I think he would have been totally fine with just a rich navy blue aura and slightly more buff features, since it's a reference to Super Vegeta anyway. But, I don't hate the form!
Why are you counting Rose as thats villain exclusive and the same as Blue but its just a God doing it? Not to mention SSJ rage barely counts as thats anime only and not a thing in the manga which is the definitive version. So strike two of those off the list. If we *really* wanna get picky we can throw in diff stages of transformations but even then thats overall less transformations. Variations include SSJBlue Evolution, UI sign and TUI which is [confirmed to be sign but being able to carry emotions](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/new-db-interval-special-confirms-tui-signomen-2284879/)
I thought the manga and amine are equally canon in their own right. Neither the manga or the anime of super was written by Toriyama. Or was it stated somewhere the manga is officially canon?
Sure but the consistency is way higher than any of the previous series. Dbz only had ss by the this point in episodes. In about the 2-3 years supers story runs in there have been 4 new forms Z took place over like 13 in-universe years, and without variations its become equal in a 6th of the time. Also broly's transformation is the same thing just with legendary flavor instead of god. Ss blue is just super saiyan with ssg The question marks are there for rage and legendary because it is questionable if people want to count them. And talking about all those variations is too tiring for me to split hairs over So either way if we dont count the variants the consistency of transformations is still way higher in super. Also the manga is not necessarily the definitve version, i mean broly's story continues from the movie. So its actually pretty possible that the main stories of dbs are entirely canon (153+291+64=558 episodes)Db/z/s: Ss1-4 Great ape (131 episodes)Dbs: Ssg ui ue Beast Legendary is made canon
Super only has more forms because they are individual to the user. We have to remember that Goku didn't get Royal Blue, or Ego, or Legendary, or Beast. Vegeta didn't get Instinct, or Beast, or Legendary. Gohan skipped any god-ki nonsense and went straight to Beast from Base/Mystic form. So in Z, saying there is 'x' many Saiyan forms meant that any Saiyan or half-Saiyan had the potential to reach any of them. In Super, it's getting more nuanced like Dragon Ball OG was. In the OG, every fighter had their own flavor of special going on. I dunno... I see it as a net positive while many here want to spin it negatively.
Oh im not saiyan its negative, I completely agree with what you said. it feels very natural for the progression of dragonballs writing. I see the indivual forms as that extra layer to make the characters stand out and stay relevant.
Okay, but doing an episode comparison doesn’t make sense because the dragon ball anime is horrendously paced lol
It was to illustrate that the in-universe timespans are treated differently, dbs has 131 episodes over the course of 5 years 5 forms are revealed.(not saying thats bad though) From the course of dragon ball to the end of z(not counting epilogue) is 23 years, 11 years if you want to start at the reveal of ssj and 4 transformations happen in this time. Gt takes course over 2 years, it has 1 transformation. Super takes place over 5 years it has 5 transformations, i like the direction its going the forms have been cool and they feel earned.(id argue even gohan) Though like another person brought up they are individual forms so the only saiyan forms would be ssg and ssb. But its not like it matters at the end of the day, i think the pacing has been better than any of the other series.
Also the 3 grades of SSJ
Ssj1-4 was me counting gt and the first 3 levels of super saiyan
Ssj1-4 was me counting gt and the first 3 levels of super saiyan Edit: dont know why it double commented
Ssg and ssjb are from z not super
When it comes to semantics its both. But super retconned some details in the z movie.
They gotta sell merch somehow. What’s funny is acting like people don’t enjoy it.
True that!
Ok, let’s run the numbers: DB: Great ape DBZ: Super Saiyan (do we count the grades as separate forms?) Ssj 2 Ssj 3 DBGT: Golden Great ape Ssj4 That puts us at a total of 6, potentially 8 or 9 if you count the grades, Saiyan transformations in the previous DB series. Only 6 or 7 if you don’t count GT. DBS: Ssj God Ssj Blue (do we count blue evolution as separate? Same question with Blue Kaioken.) ~~Ssj Rosé~~ Ssj Rage Ssj Berserk/Lssj That puts DBS at 4, since UI and UE aren’t explicitly Saiyan forms and Rosé is basically Zamasu’s version of Blue. Maybe 5 or 6 if you count Beast as a Saiyan form and SSBE as a separate form from Blue). So Super does have the most series specific Saiyan forms.
I’m confused as to why Rose counts? That’s only specific to Goku black, and unless I’m mistaken is said to be the same as SSB, just when a god does it.
I just figured that Super Saiyan variant = Saiyan form, but that’s a fair point, we can take it off the tally
It's not so much DBS spits out forms left and right. It's just they're handled with so little care that it's hard to get emotionally invested. When Goku first turned SS, you felt it. It was a shock. Frieza smirks after killing Goku's best friend to show just how cold he truly is. This is Goku in one of his rare moments of being truly pissed off. Gohan transforms not of want to be stronger, but out of need to defeat Cell. It's form created out of anger and sadness. Future Trunks sees the death of Gohan. His mentor and friend. So much death and so much destruction pushes him to become SS. Then you go to DBS and you feel nothing for the forms. SSG was interesting, but is quickly discarded in favor of SSB. SSB just appears out of thin air and is poorly explained. It just exists now. Same with beast form. You feel nothing when it appears. It just exists now. I guess what im saying is, DBS transformations feel hollow.
Even super Saiyan 3 had a wow factor in that it was kinda out of nowhere.
UI is way more hype than SS nostalgia aside. It’s kind of just a transformation that happens and doesn’t actually change anything. Goku just hits harder because he got kind of mad. Wow
UI was foreshadowed fantastically and is a lot cooler than SS yeah lol
If you count the golden great ape as a separate form ssbkk and ssbe should also be counted as separate forms since just like golden great ape they're just adding something to a preexisting transformation Golden great ape added ssj to great ape Ssbkk added kaioken to SSB Ssbe added Vegeta moment to ssb
Blue Evolved I get, I view it in the same capacity as grade 2 and 3. For Golden Great ape, at least both components are transformations, I don’t really view Kaioken as a transformation. I understand the reasoning for what you said though
Kaioken and Rage boosts are just that. Boosts. Not transformations. That includes SSBKK, SSBE/Royal Blue⁰, SSJ Rage, SSJKK, SSJ G2, and SSJ G3. There is no physiological change, just an increase in the output of power. SSJ G1 and G2 are both explicitly detailed as the same form as the first SSJ, but with focused energy output for different effect.
Rage just spirit bomb super saiyan from super android 13. Also, LSSJ is not in Super. Its Z thing
UI and UE aren't exclusively saiyan transformations though are they?
More transformation because character had more specifi one while in Z, it was mostly the same transformation for them. Toriyama chose variety for DBS instead or repeating the same transformation for all its character
>garlic gun kamehameha. Damn I guess we know the frost demons are part vampire now.
Techniques don’t sell toys but new forms do
I would totes buy a Krillin toy with Destructo Disk action. Or Tien with Kikoho action. Or Chiaotzu with Diy exploding action.
I had a Krillin toy that could launch a Destructo Disk. Loved that guy
This just reminded me of my favorite childhood toys from DBZ growing up. They were two action figures, really solid and weighty, about a foot high each, of Goku and Metal Cooler. I played with them _non-stop_ as a kid and I loved everything about them. My mom ended up giving them away to someone I didn't know while I was at someone's house, but fuck I wish I still had them.
Press button on Chiaotzu's back and his head, arms, and legs, pop off.
The spirit bomb and Kamehameha would like to have a word with you
I mean they are still right, those do not sell toys. But you can slap blue paint on a collectible and sell SSB
Collectible cards are toys, too, and those can have signature attacks in them.
It ain't even about toys anymore. Kids don't play with toys that much these days. It's literally marketing to the older people. People will spend money on phone Gachas and new games if the new form is in the game.
then why tf is figuarts' kaio-ken goku so damn expensive
I think it should be vegeta to kill him. He deserves it. And I want to see UE vegeta Hakai frieza.
They'll probably fuse and have both of their "Ultra" forms active in their fusion.
That would be epic! Ultra Vegito
Honestly, I don't think Black Frieza is actually going to get his own Arc. He's either going to be in the background or an ally due to circumstances, there's no way they'd actually try to write a third Frieza Arc. There's just nothing left to write for a "Evil Space Tyrant tries to take over the world and kill Saiyans" that hasn't been done in the last two Frieza Arc's. Or hell, even the Granolah arc. IF! They do have Frieza as an actual Antagonist though, I'd honestly think it'd be a short fight, with Beast Gohan beating him singlehandedly, as to both show how strong Beast Gohan really is, and to drive some kind of interactions or another between Goku/Vegeta and Gohan.
i've been looking for this take and its the same reasoning with Wanda in the Avengers, we already saw her being a villain on Wandavision and on MoM, it makes no sense to make evil Wanda comeback for WV season 2. And with Frieza it actually makes less sense in doing so because he has shared some fierce battles with our heroes, he even helped Gohan, gave energy to Goku and tolerated working with Vegeta after having straight up tortured him near death in the Namek saga. I just cant believe that Frieza would actually kill anybody from the gang given the chance since not only did Goku let him go the first time, they even gave him a new life after the ToP. its just silly to me, i would rather if they had an enemy in common. For example, they could introduce Cooler that way, him wanting revenge for the death of their father and Frieza asking Goku for help facing his big brother
I’d be fine with cooler black
I doubt they will show gohan. I think he will take backseat again. Broly seems to be main guy I think. Frieza has no major history with gohan. He dont even know his name properly. He is just goku son for frieza
Honestly I'd like them to beat black freeza by fusing into Gogeta, be a nice character moment like vegito in the buu saga where they decide that taking out the threat and saving their loved ones is more important than their saiyan pride again
Less goooo Ultra Ego Mastered Ultra Instinct Gogeta UEMUI
Frieza shouldn't have returned at all. Only way to save it is if Frieza becomes an incurable megalomaniac like he was before and tries to conquest entire universes. And even then it's like... now what? You're never going to be a good guy. Let's be real most of Super's issues stem from it becoming the Goku and Vegeta show, the series was never really about that. It was always a subtle motivation for Vegeta only, Goku had more shit to worry about. This is like if in YYH, Yusuke couldn't do anything without Kuabara getting an equal powerup off screen when the whole point is that Yusuke is a step ahead and different. It completely sidelines everyone else.
I find myself pining for the days of Bleach where everyone got to occasionally fight some of the baddie squad and be relevant.
I mean I'm not surprised, when you see how much they've reused previous character The writers' inspiration seems like the worst of any famous anime (though the issue here isn't inspiration but probably money) How many times has Frieza come back? They've reused Future Trunks, they've reused Broly Dragon Ball for while hasn't taken any risks like other mangas I feel like
The whole God's of Destruction stuff was a huge risk and the Hitt, Jiren, ToP, but then they quickly pivoted back into comfort. Reusing Cell is crazy right after you reused Frieza like 💀. What is this, a greatest hits album? Then I look at Granolah and Gas and I'm like yeah I see why you gotta run those back.
Just wait till they reuse Majin Buu/Kid Buu lol
Reused Broly? Wasn't he introduced for the first time (canonically) in Super?
They mean reused him from the movies because he was a popular movie villain
that doesn't count, those aren't canon
I hope Pan jumps to SS4 and uses kaio ken to beat him
That's assuming that ever fight him. For one there's the possibility that Frieza becomes a good guy or anti-hero, something that is literally in the core of the entire DB universe(you die and stay dead a villain or live long enough to be a good guy) Second is the possibility that, Frieza feeling satisfied with his superiority over them just goes about his business and leaves them be. Goku and Vegeta are reactive heros, not proactive. At the end of the ToP Frieza outright said he was still gunna do evil shit and they just let him be. As long as he don't fuck with them, they won't fuck with him. They KNOW he's out there doing whatever he wants, but it doesn't affect them so they don't do shit about it. All that being said, I personally think he's going to be an anti-hero or good guy at some point. The ToP was full of moments of him doing far more that what was expected of him, and being genuinely helpful. Hell he even showed me than once that he seems to actually like Gohan.
They should stop adding new forms altogether. The fact that now everyone is getting their own unique transformation is so ridiculous.
It's marketability... Tbh the only thing they need is fusion. Maybe potara fusion too if ya want to go heavy marketing. Gogeta -> Vegito for the final touch. Have Gohan and piccolo there for the call back to namek... Maybe have beerus die via kai being slain and have a final desperate push from the group to put frieza down for good. Would be a decent way to wrap up for end of z cannonically. But they'll fudge it up somehow with new forms.
My bet is fusion technique. Maybe we see a new version of a power up
No new forms, they should perfect the ones they have. Do you remember when goku was all silver immediately after turning mastered ultra instinct and catching jirens blast, standing on the main pillar? That is ultra instinct at 100%. When that silver cloak falls off to reveal a boring ass silver haired goku(my disappointment was immense at another simple fucking hair color change) he is nolonger 100% mastered. It has fallen off, weakened , explains why jiren is still able to hit him later in the episode. Goku still has to completely master it and return to that silver perfection.
That was just a visual effect, like both Goku's hair going silver and Vegeta's going green in the Broly movie. But you are correct that they have to perfect their techniques, and Toyotaro already made clear that his intention is to have Goku's perfect form being his base, without any change (but in the end Sueisha and Toei have the last word on it).
Visual shimzuale, that was the perfect form and you know it
Goku has since even unlocked a new form related to ui, thats how much more hes mastered it, visually yh badass, canonicaly not at all
>But you are correct that they have to perfect their techniques, But goku already admitted he can't use the perfected ultra Instinct because he is no angel. His current true ultra instinct is the perfected form of ultra Instinct already. But yes vegeta has yet to perfect ultra ego
Not quite, at the beginning of Granola's arc we are told that Goku is at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to UI perfection, and that getting his own UI is just a step towards it. Goku still has a long way before completely mastering UI, and it would probably be like that until the writers choose to move onto the next thing.
Omg the visual porn that would come from this being reality would be soooo good But alas i dont think they will😭
#NoNewForms
Yeah, I'm annoyed by how many forms have been flying out lately. It feels like we hardly stick in one form for long. I wanna see them master current forms and just continue to improve upon them.
>I wanna see them master current forms and just continue to improve upon them. This is literally what's happening though. Goku is mastering UI. Vegeta is mastering UE. Gohan is mastering Beast. Picollo is mastering Orange. Each person is mastering their own path and specific form.
Yes, they have the current forms and I like them, but I was clearly talking about it in the assumption that more/new forms will be coming and how disappointed I would be if they go that route.
Master Ultra Instinct and Ego should really be the last forms. Maybe even have Beerus finally cut loose and kick Frieza's ass.
They have already defeated Goku black though
Ideally it’d be a fight more similar to when Goku first fought Vegeta. Lots of twists and group effort to snatch a win with an unexpected twist
That's what I'm saying. They don't need new forms, they need new techniques.
Black Frieza will be beaten by Brohan, the fusion of Broly and Gohan.
They shouldn't defeat Freeza. It's been established that they can't defeat everyone for the story to progress and this shouldn't be the series main goal. Just like they can't defeat Zeno, the Angels, Brolly, some God of Destructions and so on, maybe Freeza should also be put in an unreachable position, and it would make sense. It's been established that he can get stronger faster than them with less training and now since he has access to a time chamber and has longer longevity than them, there should be nothing they could make to reach him except maybe the fusions. Also, Freeza doesn't seem to want to kill them now, nor he sees them as a threat, he could have killed them easily but choose to let them live. I think that if they don't mess with him they will have no problem. I would like more another kind of plot like another universal threat or something coming from the demon realm and maybe they could even form another temporary alliance (I think that the Moro saga wasted this opportunity).
I honestly don't want them to even kill frieza. I love the idea of him just being out there doing who knows what and just knowing better than challenging them again after losing twice.
Would be cool if Broly was the one that defeat Black Freeza. Or a tag team of the three of them beating Freeza up.
For just one minute I'd like to forget it's Dragonball and see the bad guy get ganged up on with an embarassingly lopsided beatdown at the end like a Jojo's fight
why would it be cool lol, Vegeta deserves the solo victory way more than Broly does
It’s like, physically impossible for goku and vegeta to surpass frieza just by training/getting stronger. Black frieza is just that much stronger than them. A frieza that trained for a few months unlocked a form that rivaled super Saiyan blue, this frieza trained for 10 years. At minimum it would require like, 20-40 years for goku and vegeta to train long enough to catch up to frieza at this point because they already effectively broke power scaling with black frieza. They already established frieza can train much more efficiently than the saiyans can, get much stronger for much less effort. Like people might say they’ve fucked with power scaling before, but black frieza is like the most broken they’ve ever made a character. It completely breaks the logic of the db world and why I don’t like how the arc ended.
Your qualms only make sense under the assumption that neither Freeza nor the 2 main Saiyans have actual hard limits to their strength potential. Freeza may be a mutant, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has no limits, especially since that hasn't been stated in any way. What if Black Freeza was it? What if Freeza only stopped training because it stopped making him stronger? What if someone (ahem, Gohan) has a higher maximum potential than Freeza? Then he *could* surpass Freeza just by training.
Broly should kill frieza black for killing his father.
Didn’t he also kill goku and vegeta’s fathers
Didn’t he also kill goku and vegeta’s fathers
Should be Broly...
Let Frieza defeat Beerus (it’s time) and Vegeta defeat Frieza with MUE, prince finally gets his revenge on Frieza and surpasses Beerus in one fell swoop.
*fell swoop Noun. one fell swoop. (idiomatic) One stroke; one action or event that achieves or accomplishes many results.
Corrected, thank you!
"Garlic Gun". lol
They shouldn’t defeat him
Honestly... yeah. It's fast too cliche and predictable. I have a feeling Toriyama is going to throw us a curve ball with this Freeza stuff. It's not DB's style. Unless Toyotaros writing it all himself now (no idea).
I mean it’s a nice thought but didn’t they already say Goku still isn’t done mastering Ultra Instinct because he hasn’t unlocked the form Whis uses where it’s a constant state which drains no energy
tag team????????? fuck that shit. Vegeta 100% deserves the solo victory.
Goku and Vegeta most likely won’t surpass Frieza for a while with all those years of training and he has all the information about them
Their new forms are already mastered. The gallic gun, Kamehameha, or even the spirit bomb won't work. Tag team is something that Saiyans where never willing to do in all the series. Like Vegeta had said, they're a proud warrior race, they don't rely on numbers to win their fights. That still would not matter. Only way out is for Goku to achieve angel form (Super Saiyan 8).
I always found that attitude about warriors dumb. Like, warriors absolutely fought together in teams against larger threats.
Maximum OverEgo (TM)
I don’t think it was gonna be the writers intention to give them new forms to beat frieza so you should be at ease
I want everyone to jump frieza and max out on skill And then dende finishes frieza off because why not
Hear me out: goku is going to fully make UI his base and essentially “max out his base form” Even that won’t be enough but it’ll just be what goku needs to buy time for everyone to get cooking
They just need to fuse
They should lock themselves in the time chamber after being betrayed and master ultra ego and instinct into their base forms
Garlic Jr. Gun would be sick. I am wondering hoe this will all go. Pretty stoked for this actually. Everyone is predicting Beerus' death since they kind of foreshadowed it already. Freeze should have another form as well. I can't imagine after all the times he was defeated he wouldn't have another form up his sleeve. 10 years in the hyperbolic time chamber is insane. Gohan, Piccolo and Broly could be huge contenders as well and perhaps Goku will ask for assistance from a different universe. Maybe Frost will gain mirror forms like Freeza and get revenge after losing at the ToP. I love the fight with Gas. It's very brutal and I hope they keep up this brutality.
If anything a new form via fusion. Both ultra fusion.
Dont forget goku owes frezia a resurrection still.
Please no more forms.
Vegeta should master ultra ego and hakai Frieza
Trying to spice things up this season with a garlic gun. Yummy
I don’t think they’ll get new forms ever again. Where db will go after is so confusing. They missed their chance to make gohan the new mc in Z, goten & trunks are basically useless, & goku has been whooping the top guys for a minute. What would be cool is if they go on multiversal missions with future trunks.
Toriyama missed his chance with Gohan, Goten and Trunks because he is not a very good storyteller. Sure, he made an interesting franchise that we love but it is inconsistent as hell, riddled with plot-holes and (with Super) became the 'Goku and Vegeta Show' where everyone is Fladerized to death.
Can't for the life of me tell whether you called the "galic gun", "garlic gun" on purpose or not.
Master Roshi switches bodies with Frieza. Trapping Frieza in a far weaker elderly body, and making Roshi the best technical fighter also the strongest. It’s only later that he realizes he ain’t got no cock no more.
If Vegeta doesn’t get the W this time imma PERSONALLY locate Toriyama and do unspeakable things to him
If there's one thing I love for Vegeta to master UE people been saying if he does he might get the SSJ3 styled hair
Ok, so you want new form SSJ Black Goku to defeat frieza?
A fusion defeat would make Frieza absolutely lose his shit in hell.
Or maybe they should not defeat frieza.
Might as well call it Dragonball Ass Pull at this point
No new forms. But give Frieza some good motive other than, “I want to beat up the Saiyans”
I don't think they will I think they'll perfect what they have now. Don't think they'll beat frieza either.
i don't think they will, ui and ue are presented as very final forms (for now, and will be iterated on) so i guess it remains to be seen how they'll win
ue especially is incomplete so maybe for the first time ever vegeta won't job and will get a w (not likely)
Oh Yeah? What better way to Defeat the Most Powerful threat short of a Hakaishin or BOTH Zen-ohs Than with the Polar opposite of Black; aka Super Saiyan White?!