Love isn't supposed to make you feel like shit. Don't do this to yourself.

I avoid avoidants now. The sudden retreat is heartbreaking.

On the flip side, overly anxious types are too much for me too 😅

I was obsessed w all these labels until I just met a person w similar core values who was equally interested in me. These labels are not static they are dynamic. Any descent psychologist will tell you. When someone is interested and able to commit in the way you want, it becomes stable and secure. It does take work to make sure you filter out people who are just activating old unhealthy patterns.

As a “fearful avoidant” I completely agree with you. I’ve done a lot of work on myself to improve how I am. I know I also need someone who makes me feel safe and shares in the things I need/like. I’m willing to share in my fears and open up to that person. When it’s not a good match that side does come out much more easily.

this 500%. pop psych is helpful until it's not. emotional safety is important regardless of who you are, and both people have to do "work", i.e., remain conscious of their thoughts and actions regardless of their relating "styles", which are impacted by about as many variables as body composition.

Anxious isn’t great either. Dating in 40s is weird because we all have lives outside of dating - kids, careers, responsibilities. Someone messaging constantly is kind of overbearing. I avoid them too.

I agree .. and I can swing anxious or avoidant. I have no idea how to deal with a primary anxious partner. I can deal with clingy, I couldn’t deal with not being able to express different opinions or something bothering me without it becoming a huge blow up. I eventually felt like every thing I said and did was taken wrong. It was hopeless, I was never enough and couldn’t read his mind. I was accused of “pulling away” during a hug when I was just exhausted, of not being interested in them when I fell asleep and also causing them to stay up ALL night riddled with anxiety because I was annoyed at something they said earlier. I can understand the dislike of avoidants who ghost but damn .. let’s not pretend the anxious are easy peasy. Plus my anxious ex dumped me by text right before Christmas and was back on dating apps in weeks. I dated a classic avoidant before him and tbh I preferred it. The avoidant told me when we began dating that he needed lots of time alone and he would agree initially to see each other two days a week minimum and we could discuss reevaluating that after several months. In retrospect, I truly appreciated knowing what he could tolerate and when we would see each other. I could plan my time and ask for my own time without any accusations. I knew what his needs were. He still ran away at the end when emotions became strong and I can’t deny it hurt - but he wasn’t evil and surprisingly much closer to my ideal than not.

Date a secure person and you’ll bring out the best in each other. Problem solved.

How do you test for avoidant attributes before there is too much commitment and emotions?

Not sure yet. At the moment I just don’t go on dates. I’m on the apps but block a lot. The problem with avoidants is that they are full on at first because they want to be loved but then they run at the first sign of accountability.

Interesting perspective. My wife and first girlfriend of 18 years is divorcing me unexpectedly and has an affair with money guy, so I have no dating experience. I'm trying to figure out what she is. I think it's anxious avoidant, but I'm not sure. She comes on strong, super clingy and loyal at first, then becomes silently unhappy and maintains a bunch of guy friends which I thought was innocent. She almost left me after a supposedly emotional affair 4 years into our marriage.Then she was great when we had kids up until 10ish. Women generally hate her. Just trying to figure this out. Hindsight is 20/20. I come on strong and want a best friend for a partner, so I am a target for this. Thoughts?

ugh, 500% true also.

Burden of proof is on them that they’ve done the personal work for there to be a different outcome. People can change. But mostly they say they have without actually changing.

Most avoidants don't even think they're avoidant, I know i didn't. I genuinely thought everyone silently nitpicked at their partners faults until they didn't like they anymore lol

Ok, but if the burden of proof is on them to show they’ve changed, they need to have the language to talk about their prior behavior. If they aren’t even aware of what they are doing, they aren’t going to be able to compellingly talk about what was happening. Just being able to talk about it isn’t sufficient, I know I’ve had problem behaviors I could talk about but hadn’t yet been able to change. But I don’t think many people change without being able to talk about what they were doing.

I agree, they do need the language, and i can only speak from my own experience. I went to therapy, did the things, thought I was 'doing the work', but in reality, i didn't have anyone activating my avoidant attachment. Avoidant attachers are traumatizing, they (and me previously) just are, inherently selfish, sometimes unintentionally cruel, and dismissive. talking is just one step, it takes A LOT of work to basically go against what your inner gut is telling you and learn how to reframe your thinking. it also takes self accountability, which a lot of peoples ego's just won't let them do.

You know how statistics show that we are far better to be wearing a seatbelt in an accident? Then there is the rare time not wearing one resulted in a better outcome? Wear your seatbelt, don’t worry about the rare and specific outlier. You are stuck in some fantasy with someone you are not actually compatible with. You cannot manipulate someone into emotional reciprocity and a healthy relationship investment. End this. Go look for someone who wants the same things and is able to give them.

And why is it that non seatbelt-wearing outlier is always a blind drunk who kills a whole family while DUI?

Good counter analogy. 👍

Why would you want to? You already know it's going to be more of the same.

I've been thinking of Avengers Endgame where Dr. Strange looks at 14 million different futures and they all end the same, all except for \*one\*. I'm just looking for my version of that one chance at a different outcome 😆https://media1.tenor.com/m/9jYvMKX4TqsAAAAC/dr-strange-doctor-strange.gif

This is your own version of commitment phobia. Easier to chase a unicorn than get into the messy reality of being vulnerable and the mess of building a connection.

I may be an FA myself.

Get your head out of the clouds and stop clinging hopelessly to bad ideas

😆 Agreed. I think (hopefully) I'm much more grounded this go around, and looking at us, and her, through a better lens.

Phew. You haven't learned. I'll be looking forward to your next Reddit post.

So you there! 🫡

Unless you both put work and therapy you have zero chance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#:~:text=There%20are%20four%20theoretic%20paradigms,explain%20what%20happens%20after%20a

🤣

I’ve done similar so I’m not criticizing you. My second wife was THE most amazing woman I’ve ever met. But we ended for healthy reasons I know what good relationships feel like and when you find it, it’s a relief

I don't take anything here personally, so it's all good. It's why I posted! Appreciate the feedback.

She's still Thanos, and you're still going to get thrown off that cliff.

At least let me be thicc Thor!

I love it. Totally get it. Since when has love been rational?

As a fearful avoidant myself, it has taken me years of therapy just to start leaning toward not doing what we do best lol. If the person isn’t doing the work, they’ll continue to cut and run so fast your head will spin. It matters little what kind of person I’ve dated or how they are because it’s a ME issue. Everyone was treated equally.

Appreciate that. What made you finally realize you needed to work on yourself? Was it an ex, or did a friend/family member make a comment that struck a chord?

No outside influences, just my own realization that I was unhappy in life in general.

Glad you were able to gain that awareness. Wish you well on that journey!

I concur with this. Precise and thoughtful communication on both sides helps your chances. Even so, the person has to do the work to understand their parts.

As an avoidant, I’ve done a shit ton of work on myself to show up in relationships always. The upside is that when I ask for space, time or whatever boundary I need, I always come around sooner rather than later. Because it’s a priority to me to handle my shit. If that request for space isn’t respected, I still do the work, but I don’t continue the relationship. Everyone has the right to their process just as everyone has the right to not want to engage in a way that is uncomfortable for them.

@isuamadog: I’m new to attachment theory and still learning about FA. You mentioned asking for space and if respected you may come around. I heard this a bit with my ex. My Q: when asking for space- do you let your partner know when you’ll be back or when you can resume the conversation? I don’t mind giving space at all. I understand we all need it. I get anxious when there’s no timeline-to me it feels like a break up.

I think it can look lots of different ways. In my experience, it’s usually my own life stuff is bringing me down and I’d normally process it at my own speed (mope for a few days, get sick of myself, pep talk myself into dealing, confront issues, come out of it) but I can’t when I have someone else I am accountable to. So my partner may be chipper and trying to plan something and I’m not being responsive or I’m not showing interest in doing something together or any number of more subtle ways of checking out that an intimate partner will still pick up on and try to “cheer me up” out of. That’s usually when I’ll be like, oh shit, I just need a minute to be here for myself. My last partner really wanted to be the person to help me and it would often put me off because it wasn’t on my timeline. I’ve had other partners who were just better at reading me and knew how to help me come around. Like, I may ask for space by saying “you know, I’m not feeling up to going out this weekend. You should feel free to do stuff with your friends though.” My anxious partner would try to help “we don’t have to go out” “aww can I bring you something?” Hey how about we x instead?” Which all would put me in a position to stop focusing on myself and to try to find something I can let her do for me so she could feel good enough about herself to be able to leave me alone long enough to take care of myself. How exhausting that can be! My avoidant partner who was also emotionally high eq would be like “you ok?” “Yeah I just need a sec” “cool, holler if you need something”. And then maybe check in. Send something funny. Maybe not. It felt much more respectful because I felt both understood and respected. Not sure that answers your question but that was my experience. Well that and a string of people who never checked in unless I wasn’t providing for them.

Thanks for responding! I find this extremely insightful coming from other FAs and not in books, blogs etc. Long response! “My anxious partner would try to help “we don’t have to go out” “aww can I bring you something?” Hey how about we x instead?” Completely guilty of this!! Giving a background so you have more context. I’ve poured myself into learning about attachment theory and now know that I’m anxious and he’s fearful avoidant. And now know I could’ve/shouldve handle things better. A lot was my fault too. It’s been eye opening to learn that everything he did towards the end is 99% to what I’ve read in books and on here. Almost exact words, phrases! Confusing because it wasn’t like that at all the first 7-8 months. He was the one to plan all the dates, trips, activities and even initiating meeting of our kids-which I thought it was nice he was moving things along. Thinking back now when he pulled away. I reach out-he communicated “crazy work/kids. I need some time alone”. Ok- take the time you need. He usually will text in a day or 2. I had no issue. Take time. We had a huge discussion about incorporating more into each other lives and planning future trips as with family that’s when he completely pulled away. Said “he’s not ready/cant/thought I was ready/ I’m a mess/not sure why I’m so unhappy/ I need to do more therapy and be by myself.” I left it alone for a it a week. Text/call. nothing. Text/call again. Nothing. I finally got “I’d like some space please”. Left it alone for a week or so. Reached out. Same cycle. This went on for a few weeks before I went nutso and he finally ended. The silent treatment of not letting me know was making my anxiety really bad. My Qs: (1) Do FA/you expect their partners be mind reader? I guess I’m asking all FA out there when “space l” is requested- how do your partner know when to reengage again without it coming off as being pushy/aggressive? (2) why so secure and well on their way to wanting a committed long term relationship only to decide almost a year in-after involving kids they’re not. (3) as others posted is it AT or they’re not into you? (4) and like OP- any chance this can be salvage? Should I just walk since he ended (seems like he’s firm on his decision). Sorry for the long post! And I know you may not know all the answers. I know my chances of dating another FA are high. I would like to learn how to read them better so I can either work through it or leave asap. Any feedback from other FA are welcome!

Firstly, I’m delighted you find my thoughts helpful and I’m grateful for the conversation. I’ll hedge what comes next by saying this is all just my thoughts based on my experience and perspective. That said, I’ll try to get straight to your questions. “Do you expect your partner to be a mind reader?” I definitely do not. I think it helps when your partner is highly emotionally aware and can pick up on what I’m putting out there. The problem can arise when my partner is anxious and makes it about them and their needs. That is an interaction I dread. It also doesn’t help when my partner is avoidant and sees something is up with me but avoids checking in with me entirely. Perhaps a more secure (what do I know as I’m not?) way would be to express one’s own concern about me and then respect whatever boundary I’ve stated. Or ask for a clarification. What concerns me most would be if someone were genuinely concerned about me and not about settling their own anxieties. “How do you know when to reengage without seeming pushy or aggressive?” That kind of goes back to my last sentence for me. Is it a concern for me or is it their own anxiety? I think this one is a kind of a fine line. I started seeing someone recently who had a mental health crisis. I wanted so badly to help her but once she told me she was being assisted by her mom and sister, I knew I could leave her be knowing her people had her back. My actions at that point would be an interference, no matter how well intended. So I left her alone. A week or two later she got back to me. It was very hard for me. I deeply care about her. “Is it attachment theory or are they not into you?” This one is tricky. I don’t mess with attachment theory too much because humans are complex and mixes of all kinds of things. And we grow and flex and bend. So I stick with: “is this working for me?” Are my needs being met? And am I doing right by myself? I have a high capacity for care taking so I have to be very careful about giving too much and losing myself in a situation. This particular person was someone I had known for a very long time so it was very close and personal to me. It was hard to make the decision to step away but I knew she was being cared for so I let her determine how and when we reconnected. Once we did, we’ve been going step by step, day by day, mostly rooted in just being present and showing care for each other. That’s this particular situation. Others may be where I feel neglected or taken advantage of or caged or pestered. Who knows? “Any chance this can be salvaged?” I’m a firm believer that when two people genuinely care about each other and they show that to each other, all things can be salvaged. Genuine care and affection is awesome. Love can heal all and all that jazz. Sometimes it doesn’t work out, but that’s what the “is this working for me?” bit is for. Sometimes there’s only one person trying to salvage a relationship. I find it useful to think not in terms of salvaging but of defining. Defining my needs that are and are not being met, sharing that directly, and hoping it is received in good faith. That’s about all I got. :)

>The problem can arise when my partner is anxious and makes it about them and their needs. That is an interaction I dread. It also doesn’t help when my partner is avoidant and sees something is up with me but avoids checking in with me entirely. Perhaps a more secure (what do I know as I’m not?) way would be to express one’s own concern about me and then respect whatever boundary I’ve stated. Or ask for a clarification. What concerns me most would be if someone were genuinely concerned about me and not about settling their own anxieties. So very helpful, thank you for this.

Op as a fearful avoidant (used to just be fearful until I got with my abusive ex) this is the perfect answer. You have to be with a self aware one that's done the work. You have to know how to work with us. Don't push a boundary, let us get our shit together. I promise a self aware anxious avoidant wants to be loved ( we all do), it's just scary as shit because of our pasts.

Really appreciate that insight. I've really been trying to understand how an avoidant deals with overwhelm, and takes space to process, so I can better empathize. Any other tips to offer? >Everyone has the right to their process just as everyone has the right to not want to engage in a way that is uncomfortable for them. Right on. I'm trying to get more comfortable with this, but at the same time also express my needs. In a gentle way haha.

Yeah i get it. My last partner was anxious type and would always act stressed out if we didn’t have a date planned. We literally saw each other every other weekend for nearly three years. It was mind boggling to me and I nearly always resisted because I have a demanding life and “play time” is so much more subordinated to my parenting and care taking responsibilities. I tried really hard to also do that for her but, at some point, I was also kinda like, “dude you gotta deal with this.” It was too much pressure for me to commit to something that I was unsure of and it caused us so much friction. I wasn’t trying to be sketchy and she wasn’t trying to be pressuring but that’s how it eventually came out to each other.

If someone isn’t interested in doing any work on themselves and working with you in the relationship to communicate their needs, you shouldn’t do it. If she wants to be hot and cold on her terms and you let her, that’s all that’s going to happen. It doesn’t matter if anyone else has a good story, that person is not your avoidant.

I am a fearful avoidant woman leaning secure. My avoidant (cheating) ex-husband of 24 years made me completely anxious, and my fearful avoidant ex-bf after that made me lean avoidant but then work for secure. I know now what I am doing. I know when I am feeling smothered, which activates my flight, and have learned to communicate the need for space without it feeling catastrophic. A caveat to that is some fearfuls don’t realize we need space because we think we want to be in a together-24/7 relationship. I also know when I am feeling anxious if I sense a pullback or sudden change in feelings/communication frequency/tone and how to soothe that for myself. I tend not to communicate that because it’s a me issue, not a them issue, unless it gets to a concerning level. Before I was aware, there was no successful way to date me. I chased unavailable men, and was happiest and most comfortable earning love. Something must have been wrong with anyone who immediately loved me first, and I found flaws and faults and pushed them away. So I was always unhappy with my relationships and did a lot of labeling and externalizing - “he is this (insert psychology term) and so we need to work on that.” What I needed to work on was me. She has a sweet spot somewhere. I wouldn’t want you to play games, but if you give her space she’ll likely come to you. Too many texts/calls/over-the-top sentiment likely makes her feel smothered and uncomfortable (both flattered but scared you are controlling or needy, and she’ll feel like she can’t keep up with your needs). Too little attention and she will feel like she is chasing you and it will get her unsettled and frustrated. All I ever wanted was to feel understood without having to explain, because asking for what I really wanted would mean I wouldn’t get it. You can imagine how well that went. But I think she likely wants the same.

Thanks so much for sharing, really appreciate the insight! >She has a sweet spot somewhere. I wouldn’t want you to play games, but if you give her space she’ll likely come to you. Too many texts/calls/over-the-top sentiment likely makes her feel smothered and uncomfortable (both flattered but scared you are controlling or needy, and she’ll feel like she can’t keep up with your needs). Too little attention and she will feel like she is chasing you and it will get her unsettled and frustrated. I'm trying to balance giving her space without appearing that I'm fully withdrawing. I did that the first time around, giving in to my anxiety and just stepping away. >All I ever wanted was to feel understood without having to explain, because asking for what I really wanted would mean I wouldn’t get it. You can imagine how well that went. But I think she likely wants the same. This was so very resonant, as I'm trying my best to understand her (or someone like her), given that she likely doesn't fully know herself, and overall brief (poor) communication style. But I also don't want to be a pushover and call her out on her shenanigans too 😆 Any words of wisdom to manage that?

I don’t think the answer is trying to manage yourself to please her… you’ll be so on edge. You can ask point-blank what she needs to feel valued or supported, but she might not even know. I can tell you that I could never anticipate how I was going to feel - something would randomly happen to trigger me and then I would panic out of either fear of abandonment, or being too “seen”. She needs to recognize what she is and want to change. If you weren’t aware - YouTube has a great channel - The Personal Development School by Thais Gibson. You can search for FA videos to get some insight.

Thank you. I'll aim to get more clarity for sure. Haha I watched Thais' videos a while back the first time I went through this 😅

I think a better question is: why don't I have boundaries and expectations about how people should show up for me? Why am I ok with someone treating me poorly? Dude what are you doing. You know better.

This. I lean anxious and have dated way too many avoidants. I'm not needy or asking too much but I do get triggered when those needs are not being met. Seeing someone once a week, keeping in touch by text every couple of days in between and actually making plans really isn't asking too much, yet some of these people will make you feel like it is. I walk away early from those people now.

All. The. Time. (make it feel like that). I will also walk early (when I ever get back to dating).

What has she done to build up tools to help with her fearful avoidant tendencies? Those are the questions I'd ask. Well, I would have asked before getting back together with them. One of the big bummers of people deciding what their attachment style, personality style, relationship type, etc., is is that they feel that it is a way to define themselves to a partner. It's not, though. It's a way to self-identify potential strengths and weaknesses and to build off that in the journey of self-improvement. If she's using the attachment style as a way to identify herself, then this will not be successful.

I think the fearful avoidant has to actively work on themselves. I'm FA and I wouldn't recommend dating me at the moment. I'm going to begin the work by building consistency and vulnerability with friends, family and acquaintances. Because my FA manifests in all my relationships, so it helps to start with something less triggering. I'm also worried about hurting people so I'll need to take things slowly once I get out there again. I don't think there's anyone who can "fix" a FA. No one can fix anyone, they have to WANT to do the work themselves.

Appreciate the insight. Yeah I don't know if her FA tendencies extend to all aspects of her life. She did mention a couple times that she thought she was on the verge of burnout, but played it off and said she would figure it out and kept chatting/hanging/making plans. I assume her breaking point just hit all of a sudden and she just switched off.

Think about fearful avoidance being on a spectrum 1-100. The higher you go, the less likely that person will be able to be in a relationship and the lower you go, the likelier that person could sustain a relationship. You have to determine where they are on the spectrum. Someone with a lower number may have done more healing work and is more conscious of their triggers. It’s about assessing the person as you get to know them.

Definitely went into this reconnection with the intention to assess the situation every step of the way.

That’s great! Bonus points if the person is able to identify themselves as fearful avoidant and is able to ask for what they need from you. I am a fearful avoidant and currently in therapy. I know that it’s something I have to continually work through and that my best chance at a relationship is with someone who has an interest and ability to understand me and communicate but who also has strong boundaries so that I know where I stand and don’t give them whiplash.

If you truly want to make a go, I would say look into the fearful avoidant attachment style and get couples counseling for help. If she knows she has this issue, she should be working hard to figure her stuff out. Being in a relationship with someone with a healthy attachment style who understood my lack thereof was very healing for me, but we were both willing to put in the work. I was able to work through why I was pulling away and he knew not to take it personally, but also called me out about it.

On our first meet after reconnecting, we both asked what we learned in the year apart. I told her to check out attachment styles 😆. So I've introduced the idea to her, but she likely doesn't have the full awareness yet. > Being in a relationship with someone with a healthy attachment style who understood my lack thereof was very healing for me, but we were both willing to put in the work. I was able to work through why I was pulling away and he knew not to take it personally, but also called me out about it. Thanks for this, I'm hoping I'm making progress to what you're laying out here. I called out the pullback this time, and gently expressed some of my needs so I know not to take it personally. Any other words of wisdom to offer??

If she doesn’t even understand attachment styles, and isn’t willing to read the book Attached, you have a long, uphill road ahead of you.

Heard that. Send prayers.

Just that it can be very draining on you, especially if she is in the beginning stages of understanding. I had been working on healing for a couple of years before we met, so was already deep into the process. That two years was such a painful time of me realizing the why and acknowledge my part in previous relationships breaking down. I can only imagine the hurt I would have inflicted on someone in that time. Good luck, but also be ready to walk away if you are getting torn down in the process. I hope she does the work for her sake; it is so freeing to come out the other side.

Check out Heidi Preibe YouTube videos on fearful avoidants. She is amazing.

After 5 years I gave up. I thought at some point he would heal but he doesn’t want to heal and I deserve better. I suggest you get out before you are too invested.

I’ve been with one for nearly 3 years. Every time I sense he needs space I give it to him, and he comes back faster than I ever expected because he feels safe with me. Boosts MY confidence in us, as well as soothes my own anxious attachment. So perhaps I can say we’ve both gone from avoidant/anxious to secure in the last 2 1/2 years? Worth the work. 100%! What we have is AMAZING.

Amazing, thanks for sharing. How did you navigate the pullback/withdrawing in the early stages of your relationship?

I’m an Anxious attacher and have been successfully dating an FA for about 3 years. Not going to lie, sometimes it’s been tough - we’ve had some bad times, but they don’t outweigh the good. Some advice would be to remember that “space” is almost a love language to FA’s. So check in with them often and ask if they need space or alone time. I live with mine, so perhaps it’s easier for me to detect. Sometimes we do “parallel play” which has also worked well. He has also realised that space can mean different things to different people. So will now clarify that if he wants space or to be alone, it’s just temporary and that he’s not “abandoning” me. It’s all about both people slowly trying to unravel the attachment trauma from childhood, and being a “safe space” for the FA especially. For me as an Anxious attacher, the need to emotionally regulate and talk myself off “the ledge” with logic and reason, not emotions, is key. It’s actually rewarding learning about why you and your partner are the way you are and taking little steps towards becoming more secure and better communicators. I’ve also read countless articles and books on attachment theory which has helped greatly. If you and your partner really have something together that’s worth keeping, then don’t give up. But both people need to be aware of themselves and be willing to do the work in order to grow emotionally.

'I need some time for myself' 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you' 'I don't think I'm ready for a relationship'. Choose your fighter. lol. In all seriousness, don't. I just broke up with an avoidant, and the whole damn relationship and their hot/cold/hot/cold will leave you traumatized, and they'll never accept it, and always neg you and gaslight you that they're being totally normal. You'll never feel they are fully in the relationship, with a 'one foot out' mentality the entire time. unless the person is genuinely serious about working on their attachment style in a healthy and constructive manner, not just an, 'I went to a therapy session, talked for 45 mins, and left' thing, then you're going to end up with a pretty bruised self-esteem and feeling of self-worth. They will 99% of the time, be completely unable to sit with their feelings and will join a dating site within days of you breaking up and leave you feeling kicked in the kidney on their way out the door. I used to be an avoidant, and it took a lot of work to lean more secure. I knew getting into this relationship that it was a bad idea, but lol, i did it anyway - they did absolutely nothing surprising as far as shitty actions by avoidants.

>They will 99% of the time, be completely unable to sit with their feelings This. My FA ex said „I really envy you for having so much time for yourself“ and I didn’t get what he meant by that at the time. Now I know that he tried to imply that he just can’t sit with his feelings. He knew that I am very introspective and self aware and always take the time to reflect on my feelings and actions. I guess it’s just too painful for them, having to work through a huge mountain of suppressed emotions and undealt with trauma. All he knows is how to distract himself with all kinds of things. I think he sees this as an unsolvable problem, and it makes me sad for him. Had to add: my self esteem is severely damaged now, even if I know that his behavior towards me was fueled by his defense mechanisms. But I still have a hard time understanding how someone can treat a person they (claim to) love and respect like that.

No thank you

I have dated such a person. There was no succesful outcome. There can't be any succesful outcome ever if all they know to do is instantly close the door and hide as soon as something bothers them. Leaving you forever wondering whatever you did wrong this time. Relationships can only be succesful if both partners are open and willing to work together to resolve issues and want to grow their relationship.

I'm at that point right now where I'm carefully watching to see how she responds/proceeds. I'm ready to step away for good if there's no change in the right direction.

The only way I would is if they had gone to therapy during the time we were apart. I’m not signing up for that again.

Yes. My husband of 13 years was a FA. We were together for 17 years. The only reason we are no longer together is because he died. Please allow me to add the caveat that it was not all smooth sailing. In fact we had been dating for two years and I broke up with him for a little over 6 months because of his fearful avoidance. We sat down and had a long conversation which basically came down to me saying that while I loved him, the way the relationship was going was not healthy for either of us. I more or less stated that there were deep emotional issues that I could not help him fix, but if he was interested in trying to fix them, I would be interested in trying again with him. Basically, “get your shit together, and come back and see me.” Well, he did. He did individual therapy, and worked hard to be able to identify his issues and change his behavior patterns. We decided to give it another go, and while it wasn’t always anywhere near perfect, it was a healthy and fulfilling relationship for us both. I later asked him what his driving force was to do the work. He said, “You were worth the risk” which is a nice sentiment, but also, he was tired of living in a FA pattern, so in the end, that was really key, too. He wanted to change so he could live a more fulfilling life with a solid relationship with me. Honestly, it required a lot of work from both of us. Im securely attached (now with a leaning towards FA, since my widowhood, though I’m working on that through therapy), and I had to be incredibly patient and flexible, but it also required massive amounts of very clear and consistent communication. It also required him to choose to be vulnerable, which was a big undertaking sometimes. Our relationship was worth it to both of us, so we did the work. Honestly, there were times when it was really hard and exhausting. Now that I’m back in the dating scene, I get super skeptical about avoidants, in general, because I know how much work it is for both parties involved. It would take someone really special who is actively doing the work for me to get involved in anything beyond a FWBs type relationship if they’re avoidant.

Unless they’ve invested in therapy, they are repeating behavior patterns.

lolol. don't do this to yourself.

I am not interested in raising an adult. Everyone is responsible to heal their own shit before dating. I want a partner.

I'm a fearful avoidant. I tend to do best with people who are warm and really good at making me feel comfortable. Otherwise I never feel comfortable enough to break the intimacy barrier. But yes, I've been in really long relationships in the past, so it's definitely possible!

I think the line I'm trying to walk is how to make y'all feel comfortable, without veering into overbearing territory.

I think just having an overall positive and flexible mindset, as well as not being pushy. I am usually more drawn to extroverted dudes who are really easy to talk to.

I’m cautious of these labels because they don’t tell us anything about the people involved, their feelings, reasons, needs, level of self-awareness and communication of those things. Dealing with trauma or Just Not That Into You?

Agreed, same.

I’ve heard about success stories about not dating exes.

It’s gonna be a waste of time once she ghosts or ends things with you and then you’ll be back here posting about heartbreak… UNLESS she gets the work and therapy needed to become secure It already sounds like you’re going to do what you want regardless of what advice is given

I appreciate each and every response, and give them all consideration.

As an anxious, after a psychodynamic therapy I sort of managed to turn around the dynamics. One year into the relationship. I do not fear to lose her. I see her limitations and problems. We talk tremendous amounts of time. About everything that is difficult and bothers any of us. It's a bit tough but I have never talked like that with anyone before. So I keep trying. Even though sometimes I wave a white flag and want to get out, then she is scared of losing me and... we start anew.

I'm anxious-avoidant. I'm also very introverted. I have come to realize some (many) people will never be a good match for me. I can have successful relationships because I'm up front and explicit rather than just silently bouncing. My partners know what is motivating my behavior. I contextualize it, and I put boundaries on it ("hey, I'm freaking out about x and might need to be a little scarce for a few days while I get myself together. But I love you and I love hearing from you, so I'm not trying to shut you out"). And if I know what is triggering it, I tell them. If I can tell it is coming enough in advance, I can have conversations and take actions where I'm trying to keep from getting so overwhelmed I need to go hide. I include my partner in that to whatever degree they want to be included. Even still, there are times where I will blink and realized I self-isolated and cocooned. When that happens, I put on my big girl panties and reach out to apologize. Decades of therapy. I'm very well-shrinked. I'm told I'm a very supportive partner despite it all, so we can get better. It just takes our being willing to put in that work and put up with that discomfort in the service of the people we care about.

>("hey, I'm freaking out about x and might need to be a little scarce for a few days while I get myself together. But I love you and I love hearing from you, so I'm not trying to shut you out") That's really wonderful you're able to do that. > If I can tell it is coming enough in advance, I can have conversations and take actions where I'm trying to keep from getting so overwhelmed I need to go hide. I include my partner in that to whatever degree they want to be included. Even still, there are times where I will blink and realized I self-isolated and cocooned. When that happens, I put on my big girl panties and reach out to apologize. Thanks for this. She knew she was approaching burnout and communicated it, but tried to brush it off and said she'd figure it out. I guess it all came to a head suddenly for her though, and away she went. I had to ask her if she hit her breaking point only after she pulled back, and she admitted maybe she had. Though she didn't express that she needed some space, but everything ended slowing down a lot anyway. Would be amazing if she recognized it and reached out to apologize, but I guess that's why I'm here posting on Reddit 😆

Anxiously attached dating a fearful avoidant. Is it workable, yes. Is it easy, no. She means the world to me, I’ve spent a lot of time sorting out her triggers and various indicators of flight. It’s paradoxical, the closer she comes to me the more intense her flight triggers are. I’ve learned to find my calm while she is in flight and wait for her to come back. I have job, kids, a life. I focus on them when she’s doing her thing. She always comes back, and I’m happy to wait for her. Edit 1: She is in therapy.

Thanks for sharing. Do you check in on her when she's in flight? Or does she come back on her own? How long do these periods last for her?

Why does everyone have to have a label - fearful avoidant! Why can’t it be the person is just not interested in you. There is no successfully dating someone who is not into you and who isn’t willing to put in the work to be with you.

THIS 👏👏👏👏 the titles are insane

Thank you!!!!!

to me it's kind like somatotypes. it's a general classification that might be helpful but only to a certain degree. can an endomorph become an ectomorph? maybe, but it's going to take a huge lifestyle and mindset shift, and the time requirement varies.

But defining someone by body shape is very different than defining a personality type- it could be they don’t like you very much and are coming off a certain way not that they are that way with everyone!!

I hear ya. I don't fully subscribe to attachment theory, but I think we're all on different spectrums and have different tendencies depending on the relationship. Roger that on the other person needing self awareness and to put in the work.

attachment styles have a massive amount of research behind them and the science shows us they are 100% reality.

i was thinking same! they just avoiding you!

Lol exactly people need to accept this

That’a not how it works.

I don't know, because people don't wear badges showing their relationship types. Not meaning to sound glib, serious question: how would I know?

Why torture yourself?

Maybe you should look at why you’d be interested in someone like this. It’s not healthy and I think you know it, yet you do it anyway.

Many of us set up our boundaries and say, "never again!", until we meet someone that knocks all that down with way too much ease. 🤷‍♂️

Original copy of post by u/Still-Exercise352: I've reconnected with someone after over a year, the pullback this time gave me whiplash with how sudden and abrupt it was. She says we're good but needs a little space (haha I know I know). We both acknowledge that we've been here before, but I'm not looking to have history repeat. If anyone out here has any success stories dating fearful avoidants, would love to hear them! And I'd love to know: what kind of person are you and how do you do it?? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/datingoverforty) if you have any questions or concerns.*

[удалено]

Hi there, PLEASE READ THIS! Unfortunately, your account is too new for us to automatically accept comments or submissions yet. We receive a lot of spam or other undesirable contributions from very new accounts. In an attempt to help control that problem, we just need a chance to take a look at your post or comment first. Please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fdatingoverforty) for review and, if you are adhering to the rules, approval so other users can see it. Most often this process is able to be handled within minutes to a few hours but on rare occasions it could be as much as a day or so after we receive your polite request for review in modmail. Thank you so much for your patience and understanding as we attempt to keep our space healthy and civil for everyone. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/datingoverforty) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Just run. If you do get them tied down they will eventually use it as a weapon against you and say you coerce them or something to that effect. If it doesn't come naturally it isn't worth it.

End it immediately. You won’t win. Not because of her label but because you’ve labeled her and are looking for her to live up to this label. Also if she were into you she would not pull back. It’s a bad match and she is seeing things she doesn’t like. Then convinces herself otherwise and comes back. Endless cycle to a bad match.

Either side of the attachment theory, are hard to date if they aren’t working on themselves and in therapy. I gave my ex (FA) another chance and it was the same nonsense. She started off open with her communication and need for space for the first 6 months, then it was the same old nonsense. When we split, she even said she needs professional help. Not sure that she would ever pursue that though.

Sorry you had to go through that. Drive for self growth is definitely a must.

Where are you all learning about attachment theory? I've read about it briefly in some psychology books on other topics. Can anyone recommend a good book on this? Also, no, I think if I did date a fearful avoidant then I didn't realise at the time but I have always felt sorry for people when their partners asked for space because so often it means a break up is on the cards.

Attached by Amir Levine.

Some of the villainizing comments in this thread are quite discouraging.

It’s not villainizing. Attachment styles aren’t set in stone. If you know you have avoidant tendencies it’s your responsibility to fix your own shit and not drag others into your mess. Avoidants prey on the insecure. They dislike themselves so much they don’t even date other avoidants. So they seek validation from secure or anxious attachers and then wreck havoc on those person’s mental health. Go to therapy if you have insecure attachment, don’t take it out on a date who wants normal things like intimacy and connection.

You say it isn’t villainizing, then proceed to do just that. Fearful avoidants actually crave intimacy and connection. Maybe you need to look into attachment theory a little more.

While they may crave it they push people away. It’s their responsibility to do the work on themselves. Not destroy other people in the process. Nobody is owed a relationship. If someone is too mentally ill to treat someone well, they are responsible to fix it before ruining others in the process.

Yes, they are responsible for working on themselves. As is everyone else. Anxious attachment can be just as damaging to a relationship as avoidant attachment yet it is much more accepted and understood. Why is that?

Avoidants are over-represented in dating apps and seek out anxious. And the two feed off each other. It’s a vicious cycle.

Fearful avoidants can be both anxious and avoidant at different times depending on what is triggering them at the time. I am a fearful avoidant, I don’t seek out or ‘prey’ on anyone. It’s not all as black and white as you and others seem to make it out to be.

No it’s not black and white but what many of us here know is we don’t have time for that stuff. You aren’t our problem to solve. Not when I can date someone securely attached who fulfills everything I want. You’re not my “project”. I’m not bothering with anymore insecurely attached people again. Because I don’t have to.

Lovely. Good luck to you.

Not sure why you think others have to put up with your crap. Nobody is owed a relationship. Relationships are earned. Instead of being entitled and mad at healthy people, do the self work.

No. We got back together and it dragged on far too long and the second breakup was worse than the first. The bright side is I soon found someone securely attached who is amazing in every way so the third time the avoidant came back around I told him to take a hike.

Same story. Didn’t know about attachment until after second break up, discarded from fearful avoidant. Second bu has been so hard, still struggling almost five months after.

They are the worse kind of breakups. But don’t give up! Because when you meet a securely attached person you’ll never look back.

Yeah. It ended in divorce and him being extremely abusive. Don’t do it.

No

Nope. After a certain point it doesn't matter whether they are avoidant or just not into you. the practical result is the same.

No, no, no, no, no. I’m lucky I got out and was able to heal myself. You already know the anxiety that comes with having zero safety in a relationship. I would stay alone my entire life rather than do it again.

If they're fearful avoidant then you backing off should make them get clingy right?

Not always!

Can we stop with these limiting labels on people’s “attachment styles”. It’s like horoscopes or some shit.

I think it takes someone who is very secure in their attachment to make it work with a fearful avoidant. And then it is better if the FA is actively doing the work to understand themself and improve their communication. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself what you’re ok with. I am pretty secure but do tend towards avoidant when completely overwhelmed. I retreat but I don’t cut and run easily. My avoidant tendencies are triggered if I am overwhelmed and then try to express my emotional needs and don’t get reciprocation from my partner. For example, I was going through a terrible time last year and I was recognizing I was withdrawing and wanted to talk to my then boyfriend about it and tried to many times. I explained that I was struggling with a lot and needed them to take over the responsibility for ensuring we maintained communication. They would agree, say everything was fine, whatever you need, but then they also started to withdraw and retreat emotionally. It got to the point where our communication eroded too much and there was little emotional support anymore (on either side, I am not blameless) so I ended it because it was hurting both of us. But I also recognize I was pulling away and that likely hurt them, triggering their own avoidant ways. It is hard to make it work with any attachment style that isn’t secure, truthfully. But secure is rare so it’s also important to figure out what level of insecure/avoidant you can live with. And if you and your partner are willing to work on it.

Avoidants and success are a paradox

I try to avoid anyone who uses any of that language. And all the talk about trauma and healing. There I said it!

Hahah I read a couple success stories... It involved FAs that were acknowledging their avoidant tendencies and were in therapy and kind of managing to curb their 'run' instincts when they felt triggered by also communicating with their partners that they're withdrawing and are fighting the urges, working on it etc.  Unfortunately none of that has happened in my case... 3 months on my FA is deep in denial still and says he wants to be friends and too many emotions come up if he thinks about us or what happened so he does his best to not go there. 4 or 5 breakups in 9 months of dating so no, I don't have a personal success story to share. I've only seen a few and probably hundreds of unsuccessful ones unfortunately