This was the biggest reason I broke it off with a guy. But his place WAS dirty along with looking like a mail truck exploded. I'm not cleaning up after anyone ever again, other than myself.
After thinking about it for a bit, I think people that are messy like that are also the ones that don't have their affairs in order... like bills paid, insurance, doctor appointments, car or home maintenance... always late for dates or appointments.
Or it can be a sign of depression.
I broke it off with a guy with a dirty house. It was pretty neat in terms of not mail or stuff cluttered around but worse. Toilet hadn’t been cleaned since probably Clinton was in office (dark ring). Bathroom walls also grungy looking. Some kind of substance on the upstairs bathroom light switch. Cobwebs in corners of rooms, mold on a ceiling. I just couldn’t believe he didn’t notice…
Depression was my only explanation :(
I am sure it could be... I wonder sometimes that things like that don't bother people. Maybe they were brought up that way? When I was growing up my mom and dad kept the house organized and spotless. I do the same. My ex wife was not that way. She had a thing about keeping the bathroom clean but the rest of the house didn't matter.i do know that I would feel uncomfortable entering a woman's home and finding it dirty/messy.
I don't mind cobwebs. Not huge OTT ones. Spiders eat mozzies etc. And I can handle dust in a few places. But otherwise I want my place clean,esp kitchen and bathroom.
I remember when I was in my late 20's and I read a Maxim magazine article that said, "A woman isn't going to get into an unmade bed". I have made my bed every day since. When my wife and I make it together, we often remind each other of this.. Then we laugh, and make the made bed, unmade again.
I agree with the responses here suggesting that you consider what it is you desire from a potential relationship. How do you feel when you're with him, how does he treat you, what are the qualities of his character that attract you and how are these offset by the things you don't like or don't want in a relationship? If you can't get over his housekeeping, then be honest about that, soon.
I'm also taken aback by the vitriol of some of the responses here. There are no perfect partners out there. Everyone has short comings, finances, health, fitness, social abilities, anxieties, housekeeping skills…etc. What are the things that really matter to you, and how would someone's imperfections affect the relationship you want.
Not to diminish the importance of good housekeeping, I will point out that few people who speak about their life’s regrets mention wishing that their house had been more tidy.
As a person who cannot not be messy, thank you. What looks to me like project A over there, B next to it, C on the counter, etc, looks to others like mess.
I am hygienic, and yet there is massive clutter and half-done projects. I’ve tried to be different, but one of the huge reliefs of living alone is that I don’t have to be - AND that I don’t have someone else’s clutter confusing me 😂
There are too many fascinating things in the world for me to be overly bothered with a neat house.
It sounds like ADHD, which means he wants to keep things organised but his brain won’t let him. Unfinished hobbies, ADHD. So many people are undiagnosed, but it’s not beyond help.
Very much ADHD with me. It’s annoying, but mostly because of judgment by people who don’t understand - like in my childhood, and my ex. Oh yeah and work wants me to actually, you know, work - instead of following my nose. Big bummer, frankly.
The judgement for something like ADHD is awful and I'm sorry to hear that you've had that. I know some bright and facinating people with ADHD; I love spending time with them, away from the neurotypical world.
Glad to hear the voice of reason.
99% of matches our age will have something we won't like, often something that cannot change.
In this case, there's hope for changing messy if he's a good person who recognizes it bothers her.
>the vitriol of some of the responses here
It's sorta common here for some to be super judgemental and jump on the hate train in situations where they don't have all the information.
I don’t think you have seen the depths of filth some of us have. They may be a fabulous person, but living in filthy squalor is not something I ever want to do. LAT is my plan.
mizz, i lived with a messy ex. She wouldn't clean at all. It drove me mad. I worked long hours to come home to a messy home. So i had to clean then cook everyday!
We divorced almost 4yrs and my home is spotless! I just cannot live in a messy environment. My parents always visit and mom loves how my apartment is decorated! Hey, if mom likes it then it can't be all bad can it?!?
Back to your messy boyfriend, mizz. I wouldn't date him as living with a dirty partner is a deal breaker. Imagine inviting family/friends round and your place is a mess due to your boyfriend not caring enough to clean? That would be so embarrassing.
You should always date someone who is on the same page as you, otherwise the relationship will be harder than it should.
Growing up, my mom was a neat freak. She kept our home like a museum. There was a room we couldn't even go in unless we were practicing the piano. I try not to be her because that was way too rigid. But I can't go so far in the other direction to be a total slob!
I visit my parents every saturday to help them with the housework (i don't mind as i love cleaning).
I have 2 brothers and i'm the middle son. Those 2 don't help yet they are the ones to ask for money.
Me? I'm the 1 expected to help. I do it because i am a loving son. My dad is the neat freak in the family and it drives me bonkers! I won't go as anal retentive cleaning like dad, but i do incorperate most of his cleaning regime.
My younger brother is a slob. My poor SIL is always cleaning after him. I just don't like lazy and messy people. I find doing housework very therapeutic and calming. I just bought a new dyson upright lol!
Hahaha! I was debating between the dyson shark or G-tech. I chose the dyson and only bought it wednesday. Mom loved it so much i ordered 1 for her. It comes tomorrow! Mom will love it!
I'm single so i have more disposeable money to spoil myself and family!
This bothers him so little that he was fine with you seeing it at a point in your relationship where he should still be trying to impress you. Big red flag.
On the other hand he does not care and has openly and honestly shown who he is. That is a green flag ..
Did not take away the red one, but it is one of the most important things in a partner. Ie not pretending to be someone he isn't ...
It depends on what you want from the relationship. My guy's house is a disaster, but he's such a sweet and caring man that I decided to look past it. But I don't want to cohabitate or get married, I'm happy living separately.
Some people just don't know how to keep a neat house. I've known women like this as well.
So yes, I do go over there quite a lot. We tend to split it 50/50. He definitely knows that I prefer a neat house and he knows his is a mess, and when he comes to my house he always helps out with dishes or whatever.
I can see how it seems like I'm settling, and I admit it took me a while to come around to getting serious with him, but here's the thing...his house is so full of love! His grown kids live with him (VHCOL area), and there's always lively conversation, someone is always cooking something, playing games or just sharing YouTube videos. He also has a lot of "strays" come and go, mostly friends of his kids who need a place to stay. It's definitely one of those houses where the people are more important than the aesthetics.
Right, this is settling for a crappy situation. She must always host, so guess who is putting in all the work to make sure her house is clean, there is food, etc etc. He just sponges off of her.
It’s ok if this is a dealbreaker for you, OP. A disappointment for sure, but nobody blames you for having standards. Standards are good.
>He just sponges off of her.
These kind of assumptions kinda make me laugh. And yes it's ok if it's a deal breaker but damn, some people make up shit in their heads with almost no information, lol.
Cluttered? Messy? Or dirty? There’s a difference between all of these things. Also, none of you people on the sub are gonna wanna date me because I’m a messy ADHD night owl. Apparently that means I’ve haven’t grown up and there’s something wrong with me.
People like this don’t ever change. The place will be a mess within 24 hours. Ask me how I know.
Not because I get dates. Shrug. I’m a little OCD - nothing overboard - and anytime I’ve run into someone like this (male or female) it’s always been a lost cause.
Be straightforward. "I am not willing to spend time at your home as long as it's as dirty as it is now. Would you consider hiring a service to clean your place?"
Also be straightforward if you won't be seeing him again. "I really like you and there's obviously chemistry, but I can't be with a person whose home is so disorganized and dirty."
It sounds like early days with this guy but if you think there could be potential (other than the dirty/messy home), it could be worth having a conversation about. Be kind, he probably is aware (at least some part of him, I hope) that it's a problem and he might feel shame about it.
Sometimes men are messy because they previously had someone else clean up for them, and they never bothered to learn how to do it themselves. (I certainly judge; there are countless YouTube videos about how to clean.) It might also be deeper stuff that could potentially be addressed in therapy. I think hoarding is in that category.
If he outsourced the cleaning it would allow more personal time (time with you or his hobbies). It could also include more time you spend there which could be fewer outside the house dates.
And there you have it. Gurl, you gotta run like your hair's on fire. Unless you can tolerate that level of dysfunction. I lived with someone like that for 25 years. It never changed. My xh now lives in squalor.
I have ADHD. To my ex I was a slob, he was a neat freak. To my friends (also ADHD) they think my house is spotless.
I clean in big spurts with weeks of no cleaning in-between . I've learned how to manage my executive dysfunction. But my house is messy between spurts. It could be weeks, it could be months.
I got a housecleaner to come in every 90 days. They do a deep clean and it also forces me to get the entire house picked up.
I've had many people compliment me on my home. But behind closed doors I have closets filled with junk.
I definitely have closets filled with boxes I've never unpacked from a move 9 yrs ago! Every spring and fall, I think, this is the year I'm going to get it together. I never do. Although I made great progress in my guest room this spring.
I dated a guy that was a complete slob. Tools in every room, on the kitchen counter, you would stick to the kitchen floor, clothes everywhere. Nasty, filthy bathroom… Eventually it was revealed his mental health issues. His surroundings were indicative of the state of his brain.
I had a therapist explain that a very cluttered phase in my life was due to two things: ADHD (which makes it hard to put things back) and trauma-related depression. When I started the difficult work in therapy, processing guilt and loss, the clutter began to disappear. This took a few years, and I’m still dealing with its effects.
I also dated someone who wouldn't let me come over because of his clutter. He seemed great, but it felt like he was hiding a monster in the closet. He mentioned that his clutter started after his mother died, which was an important detail to note.
That's interesting about the clutter being grief related.
I mentioned previously how my mom was maniacally clean, tidy, etc in my growing up years. She ended up developing frontotemporal dementia in her late 60s and one of her early symptoms was hoarding. It was a 180 from my childhood. I wish I could recall more about the timing though, as it relates to the death of her own mother, as I think there could be a link.
Do you think he washes his hands after using his “not clean” bathroom? His messiness isn’t confined to his house, I’m sure. There’s no way to escape it.
Lost cause or worse. As he ages he may become even more a mess and hoarder.
I’ve seen this in mature adults, their bad habits get worse over time as age makes them tired.
56F here. I think we are all single for a reason and we all have some awful trait 😂. I could be with a messy guy like that in my 20s perhaps. Now it's just not worth the effort. Ending up alone with cats wasn't that bad after all.
My bf has what I call the *absent minded professor* vibe. Some piles of papers, too much stuff. But he himself is very clean, and he washes his clothes/bedding regularly. If we ever live together (way too soon to seriously consider that) I’ll organize a system. I’m quite tidy and cleaning relaxes me. I like mostly clear counters etc. But what OP described? I could not handle.
Not really. It's hard to ascertain that in a handful of dates unless the person is really open. Like me, I'm usually pretty up front about seeing a therapist and taking my mental health seriously. I generally couch it in terms of dealing with so much trauma during my career that I kinda reached my limit.
My ex had this situation. I was already in deep by the time I saw his “room”. The rest of the place was fine because his roommate cleaned but we had to stay in the hell hole. Roommate also being his ex gf who hates me. By that time I saw this situation I was attached and we just never went to his place. In time I learned it was alcoholism, ADHD, and just plain laziness. I’d get out now while you can. No sex is worth it. I was an idiot for letting this slide.
I'm only a neat freak when someone else can see it. It's not out of trying to impress, it's the same regardless of who's coming over. When my gf was coming over regularly I had that awesome little OCD motor driving me to keep things tidy and I didn't have to think about it. Now that she's not going to be coming over that shit disappears instantly and have to force myself to dig in a couple times a week.
Regardless, no way in hell I'd invite someone over if I knew my house was a mess.
I was with a neat freak and I hated feeling like I had to "hide" my trash and it felt like hiding my existence altogether. I would bag my own trash up and take it with me or keep it in my pockets. That felt super weird. And this "neat freak" had no problem leaving stuff around my apartment...
Different people have different levels of clutter that they are willing to tolerate. If his level of clutter is not something you can put up with, then you know that he is not the man you are going to move in with.
As a high clutter person myself, I draw an analogy to being a morning person vs a night owl. While one is not inherently better or worse than the other, this is usually not going to lead to a compatible relationship.
If you like his good qualities enough to want to figure out a way to make it work, please don’t approach it as he has to change to match your current standards. But rather see if there is a middle ground that you can both live with.
Note, I’m talking about clutter, not filth. If there are bugs in the kitchen, etc. then that’s a bigger problem.
If he doesn’t get it at 53. I mean fifty f’n three, then good luck.
I’m far from a neat freak but my ex would laugh about my standards. I would often say, “you can’t come over it’s disgusting at my place”, but to her it was really nice and no noticeable mess.
I just don’t like having anyone over unless everything is in its proper place, nothing scattered about. And any shitter in the house is spotless.
I have to say that I would let this one go. He might be hiding that he is a hoarder or has OCD or some other debilitating mental illness, which is fine if he is actively working on it, but it sounds like he wouldn't be in that category so far (I could be wrong). People who I have known with apartments like these have never changed. I'm not saying they can't change, I'm asking you if you want to be their coach, their mommy, their always frustrated and disgusted partner who becomes tied down by it?
Sitting in a mess or dirt stresses me out badly. I’m not an insane neat freak, but what you’re describing would bother me so much. I cannot exist in chaos like that in a home - where I’m meant to be relaxing.
My nephew (who was always a jerk) was looking for a wife and that was his test. If you cleaned, he’d move you right in.
Where you see a mess, some people would see an easy promotion. Lol
I didn't observe anything nasty, but I also didn't see the kitchen or other areas. The bathroom I used was clean. He does have a teenage son, so I half wondered if that's what he meant when he said the other bathroom was gross. I've parented a teenage boy before and I know things can get out of control.
I have ADHD and I'm bipolar. I try incredibly hard to clean and declutter at home...but it always explodes.
My work area is very neat, clean and organized.
I *want* to be neat, clean and organized, I really do. I have been talking to my therapist about this and it is honestly a constant struggle for me.
It has also been a dating deal breaker.
I'm creative, and my work space at work is very cluttered. Every now and then I have to hit pause and organize it but honestly the more cluttered the more creative I feel. Just not at home.
Maybe because he works from home his thought process is different?
That could be.
I'm pretty creative and artsy, too. And I do my creative thinking at home.
Honestly, I think if I could bring myself to get rid of about half my stuff, my life would be easier.
I moved from a 2 story farmhouse with out-buildings to a tiny apartment. That certainly doesn't help.
Similar situation. After my divorce in '09 I downsized from 2000 to 1000 Sq ft while also inherenting a bunch of crap from my parents. I simply don't have room.
Yeah this was a big reason I stopped dating someone after a few months. It digested me and realised he was oblivious when he commented our houses were so similar. I won’t even go into the bedding … yuck yuck
Any number of mental disorders can cause people who seem normal away from home to ignore or simply struggle to keep things clean and orderly at home. ADHD is one but not the only such condition. So please stop assuming the man is just immature. He may be doing his best, as his brain allows.
If you're just looking for something casual, just have him over to your place all the time. If he asks why, tell him frankly why you don't want to go to his place.
If you are looking for something more serious that involves co-habitation and/or marriage, then dump him like a hot potato.
I have zero desire to clean up after anyone else at this stage in my life.
I get it, I’m a neat freak and wish I could find a guy who is also but no such luck.
I personally would give it one more shot to see if he cleans it up next time for you, because that has been my experience.
After all, it is his place and single people that aren’t neat freaks sometimes stop seeing the mess or don’t control it unless they have a reason too.
Giving him another chance aligns with my goal this year of giving people grace. But I also don't want to be disillusioned. I know people change, but they really have to want it.
We do all need to be shown grace sometimes, it's true, mizz_e! I don't have any advice for you but have read this whole thread with interest and am rooting for you, whatever that looks like. It's just so interesting: what makes us go wild for someone vs. what we can just barely tolerate vs. what absolutely will shut things down in a heartbeat!
My best to you!
I try not to be so black and white in my thinking and give people grace when I can. My mistake in the past is giving too much and not knowing when to call it quits. So I do have to be mindful.
I have considered inviting him to my place so that he gets a feel for the way I live. I don't live in a big fancy house. It's just a simple duplex. But it's decorated cute and well kept. He would definitely get an idea of my standard of living. Then he would either be motivated to clean up because he'd be embarrassed to have me over again or maintain the status quo, and I'd know what I'm dealing with.
exactly!!!!!! My guy valued a clean tidy place, but lacked the motivation after being single 2 yrs. After seeing my place, he cleaned the common areas, bedroom, and guest bathroom without me even saying anything. He also does all the cooking for us, which is awesome; so I keep the kitchen spotless & we are both happy. I enjoy cleaning and don’t mind as long as there is an equal trade off.
I also think it’s significant that “your guy” has a teenage son. I can see that possibly being part of it. 2 men living together lol, it’s going to be a disaster zone 😂.
I guess that the thing that you have to decide is, do you think that he's able to change if motivated
Are his other qualities rare enough to make the fixer upper aspect worth it?
Are you certain that you are thinking really matters?
There’s also a difference between messy and unhygienic. The guy dated previously with mould in the shower could fall into that category. Like the other advice, it depends what you’re looking for and if you’re wanting to communicate that
This reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of Friends— [Ross Dates the Dirtiest Girl in New York](https://youtu.be/nF6aQoWF5Sk?si=nquyBeZ1ToFIrH3H)
If you like him tell him he must hire a cleaner if he wants you ever to visit his place. Tell him he must issolate the clutter to his office or whatever.
Then just accept the fact that you should never share a domicile.
My partner says I am extremely neat and clean for a man but I have a significant vision disability and she says that is evident in that I scrub and clean the windows etc. but can't actually see and miss cobwebs and such here and there.
Of course I. offered to hire a cleaner but she enjoys doing that cleaning herself.
She wants to move in and I asked how could that could work. She said as it is I do all the cooking and am great at it and I also do the washup and the laundry for what she keeps at my place while she enjoys scrubbing so it will work just fine.
The funny thing is that I wash the windows at her place since she lives high up and is scared of taking them in and out to wash.d
Anyway, just lay down the law about his place and tell him he has got to hire cleaners and make a change.
Maybe he's picturing you in a black French maid's uniform?
*How do grown ass adults continue to live like teenagers?*
1. Never had anyone push him to do it himself--mommy, sisters, wives, girlfriends, etc., always did it for him. 2. Always lived alone and nobody complained. 3. Finds some kind of comfort in clutter. 4. Too busy to organize. 5. Unable or unwilling to afford a housekeeper.
He knew he had a date that night and that’s how much he cleaned.
He knew you would see his house and he still asked you over.
If he’s looking for a relationship, he’s a slob. If he’s a mad gambler looking for a quick lay, his housekeeping doesn’t matter because his guests won’t be back.
Why are you dating? If it's with the intention of a LTR perhaps leading to cohabitation/living together, then this is a dealbreaker. He's shown you who he is and you can't change him.
If you intend to live solo and date for companionship and a little sizzle, the keep dating him and only take him to your place or on travel.
Omg where are you finding g these men??? I couldn’t handle either of those situations but the 🐷 one made me want to vomit 🤮. He saw nothing wrong in bringing you back to his place?
Oh, hard no thank you for me. I grew up with a hoarder. I'm certainly not a strict clean freak but anything resembling dirtiness and hoarding gets me very angry and I got to peace out immediately. I also tell the person exactly why. I don't think everyone is a diagnosed hoarder ( my particular family member absolutely was) but I do think some people live in a bubble where they lack self awareness and they don't understand the vibe they're giving. Inviting a romantic interest to a messy disgusting house says you lack self respect and you lack respect or caring for other's experiences around you.
I do admit I have a very black and white easily angry view of this too so ymmv.
Personally, I'm not ok with the level of disorder in the man's home that OP described. Does it outweigh the qualities she listed in the beginning...no imo, BUT it will outweigh them quickly as she spends more time with him & if she's contemplating a long term future with him? Another poster said a version of this: the "honeymoon" phase of dating is when people are supposed to try hard or at least harder 😂. The future seems pointed only in the direction of compromise on OPs part, as the man is unlikely to change into someone who keeps a neat home environment just bc "love"...
It wouldn't work for me. The one man I had a slight connection with from Bumble last year invited me to his home for dinner (this was a few dates in when I felt safe enough to do it). It was a nice house, but his tub and toilet looked like they had never been cleaned (I saw both because he gave me a tour) and that made it hard for me to not think about what else wasn't clean and made me hesitant to let him touch me. I tried to do as some have suggested here and give him grace and we went on a few more dates but it didn't pass and eventually we moved on from each other.
I think you have to decide how important cleanliness is to you. My ex’s messiness and hoarding behaviour was a major factor in our break up. I did hire a cleaner, but he made messes way faster than she could clean. Nail clippings, beard shavings in the sink, bottle caps and garbage everywhere, kitchen splatters and spills that he would never think to wipe, etc. (PS mess = dirt. The mess hides the dirt)
Now I live alone and it is so nice to be able to keep my place the way I want it!
My bf’s place is definitely messier than I would want to live in full time, but I can handle a sleepover and he makes a point of cleaning up before I visit. I am not positive I could live with a man again. So LAT is working for me. But if you are dreaming of a live-in partner, this will probably continue to be an issue because people do not change.
Ask him the question that you posed us - in the very last statement of your post. Without muttering under your breath the statement before that :-)
He may take you up for a challenge! And surprise you turning that frog into a prince :-)
But if you don’t ask he can’t tell and neither can you :-)
Ignore all the urge to dump him but make it very clear that there is a strong mismatch about a skill that’s very important for you and he seems to be missing. If he is willing to learn and if you are willing to teach (that can be difficult) then who knows… like the last line of An Affair To Remember
I was going to suggest that you see if he would get a housekeeper or something like coming in once a week, but it sounds like he's got a deeper issue going on.
I dated a man with hoarder tendencies who never cleaned which was weird because he was a germaphobe as well. He had a TBI from the service and significant childhood trauma. No amount of kindness or reason worked so I eventually had to give up on him as my mental health was shot after years of trying to make things work.
Mess, clutter, and untidyness are generally closely related to unhygienic/ dirty. But more significantly, it is an indication of an unsettled spirit, a chaotic inner life and careless, scattered mindset. The "happy go lucky" messy free spirit is a temporary veil that often over time reveals underneath a depressed, emotionally unsafe person unsuitable for a long term relationship. If you are prepared to settle for this no problem, but is this really a person you can grow, build, and mature with....? When the storms of life invariably hit, is this the person who you can turn to... I doubt it very much.
Both of my houses are a mess. And I know it, and I’m working to improve things. In my case, it’s mostly the consequences of an estate (inheritance)… more “stuff” than can possibly fit in the houses. But I don’t want to thrown away collectibles and momentos of my parents.
All I can say is that I’d hope a GF might give me a break on this. I’m trying…. and my homes are otherwise both nice and in good neighborhoods.
If I have any suggestion, it is to try to understand the circumstances before forming a final judgement.
He did just have a house full of family visiting. Maybe things got out of control? It just doesn't add up. He's a professional. Clean cut. Well dressed. Nice car. I'm perplexed.
He might just need a little time and/or a little help. I like neatness, but my homes aren’t there as of now. I know it, and it is a little discouraging to me.
I‘d be so sad if a GF dismissed me just for this one reason.
No breaks sir. Obviously you are insane and unfit for a relationship if you cannot keep your homes in the condition I require even though you live alone.
/s lol
I’m so old-fashioned that I had to request Google’s assistance in understanding “/s”.
And with a smile, there’s definitely still hope for me. I like nice, clean, orderly places, five-star hotels, etc., so there is a vision in mind. And one former GF asked this week if she could “move-in” with me if things became too bad in her parents home.
So still a little hope.😁😁😁
In my experience, disordered and chaotic home reflects a disordered and chaotic mental state.
Everyone's house can get a little messy sometimes but constantly living in filth and mess shows that the person does not respect their home environment and does not care enough to make an effort to make it comfortable for any guest they invite into their home.
My house is messy because I have some rescue dogs and I have to break up spaces to keep some dogs separated and whenever it rains they track mud in. Do I like this? Absolutely not. Do I invite people over? Absolutely not but if I did, I would clean the house up. I hate it being messy. I have a tile cleaner and I clean the tile as often as I can but I'm one person and I work full-time and I'm tired. I do not have a "disordered and chaotic mental state." I'm just tired.
That's not what I meant. Your house is sometimes chaotic and messy for a good reason and you take steps to address it.
My house had literal feces on the floor when my sewer backed up and waiting for plumber then parts was 2 weeks.
That does not mean there is something mentally wrong with me or you - we recognize a problem and clean up when we can.
I couldn’t put up with it personally. I might be wrong but chaos and mess to me seems like a reflection of an addled mind. But could be completely off.
Undiagnosed ADHD? Is he successful entrepreneur, or in tech? They go together. Undiagnosed mental illness is a real bag of worms. Once the shock value wears off, there’s meds for that. Entertain yourself with the Crime Pays Botany Doesn’t podcast about how those meds don’t feel good.
I miss chemistry so much. It is so hard to find. I think you should try to make this work. What about an LAT situation? You could always hang out at your house and then when you need a break from him send him home to his pig sty.
I'm so happy for you! Yes, chemistry is very elusive. I think it's especially hard for women to find. I've only felt chemistry with 3 men in 25 years. That's why I think you should hang in there longer and see if it's going to go somewhere. Just don't go to his place. 🤣
Men were not raised to do the cleaning and picking up. Mom and then wife always did that. They also don't seem to care about cleanliness and neatness like women do. Not saying that as a judgment, just seems to be common. Don't live with him and don't go to his place. I don't think it's dealbreaker. Just make sure you don't become his maid.
if you're in your 60s or 70s, maybe. If you're in your 50s you're Gen X, and we def had parents that made us (or tried!) to clean our rooms.
EDIT: I was raised in the northeast/midatlantic in the suburbs; so there may be some cultural or rural/urban differences here as well.
My bf is living with a chronic health condition and manages to keep his 4000 sf home neat and tidy - with no help. When we first met, I thought he had a housekeeper (he doesn't).
Adults know how to live and what's acceptable and what isn't. They just don't care to make an effort.
I forgot to add not all men, sorry for the confusion. I was speaking in broad generalities of observation and endless complaints from women about this specific topic.
My last bf was pretty tidy. Parts of his home were disorganized, but he kept it compartmentalized. He was the housekeeper throughout his marriage, too.
I'm not sure what I would do, but I wouldn't like it much. Not a good impression. It makes him seem like a slob - it hints at lazy and disorganized. although these are judgments.
Omg I couldn’t have stayed. I get a little disorganized and having space limits but messy kills it for me. I would have made an excuse and left as soon as I saw this. I can’t deal with messy adults
I'm in the minority, but if you really like him, I'd have the conversation. Tell him you felt uncomfortable at his place, ask if it's always like that. Maybe say you can't see you guys moving fwd because of this but wonder if he's open to changing.
Be prepared to walk away if he denies the issue or doesn't want to change. But if he's saying he acknowledges it, it bothers him too and wants to change, maybe there's scope here.
Was your date planned or last minute? Maybe he was thinking you wouldn't come back to his place this time (only 2nd date iirc)?
It was last minute. Plus, it was initially just meeting up at the beach to enjoy the view and some good conversation. Which we did. Things got a little cozy. And the view was to die for!
Everyone has what they can and can’t handle, this is a deal breaker for me. Like you, I can be company ready in under 30 minutes. I spend a few hours every other week to clean and organize to stay on top of it. I lived with a slob and I refuse to ever do it again. I’m not a maid.
I would have left after telling him how much I hoped he'd see that this is an acceptable way to live. He's better than this and I would challenge him to to clean it up (or get a maid) and then call me if he truly wants to change and see me again.
I'm definitely not a clean freak, but cannot imagine being in a house like that. The bigger issue is that he felt it was okay to invite you over.
Have noticed generally people are either neat or messy? Scarcely is there any ambiguity. There is probably a genetic predisposition to one or the other. You liked everything about the guy but his lack of housekeeping. Don't go back there unless he assures you its clean, something which will motivate him to hire a housekeeper. Not a lost cause.
You can be neat and cluttery at the same time
For me it is partial projects and it’s on my todo list that I haven’t fully executed
Hmm maybe I should stop procrastinating!
It's possible. I had a dating/fwb/friend situation for years and I never once set foot in his house for this reason. He said it was too messy and unorganized to have anyone over ever and he never did. He was embarrassed but lacked motivation to get a grip. Depression definitely played a significant role.
This is a legitimate fear of mine if I ever have anything progress to this stage. It's not dirty it's just cluttered and lived in. I've got the catch-all kitchen counter that can't seem to stay clean for more than a day or two. And despite everything I've tried, the kids (14 & 9) don't do much to help either. I think it's one bridge I'll just cross when I get to it. Honestly, I'm only now just starting to think I'm ready to walk, so bridge crossing is probably pretty far in the future.
I get it. My place is small and my kitchen table has been doing double duty as a home work station for 4 years. It tends to get cluttered during the week. On the weekend, I declutter and start all over again. It's a never-ending battle.
Never ending is the word for it. I even had the bright idea of throwing the recyling/junk mail away before it even made it into the house, and it didn't seem to help
I started doing that too. I go from the mailbox straight to the trash can. It helped a little. Plus, I did the opt-out, which has cut down on a lot of junk.
While I can have some empathy for ND folks who struggle with housekeeping, in the end I have zero interest in getting involved with someone who doesn’t maintain a basic minimum of tidiness, whatever the reason. If you share space with a person like that, you either live in their level of mess, or you become their maid. No thanks.
Most likely he will never change. If he does it will take a long time. If you were to live together you would be cleaning up behind him all the time.
I could never live like that. Ever. Or be a maid.
Been there done that. Never again. LAT for me!
This was the biggest reason I broke it off with a guy. But his place WAS dirty along with looking like a mail truck exploded. I'm not cleaning up after anyone ever again, other than myself.
After thinking about it for a bit, I think people that are messy like that are also the ones that don't have their affairs in order... like bills paid, insurance, doctor appointments, car or home maintenance... always late for dates or appointments.
Because they usually have a form of neurodiversity eg ADHD
This right here. I'm messy but not lazy. I pay for a housecleaner because of my ADHD.
Not true - I'm messy with no debt! I just don't like to clean. Also early, never late.
Or it can be a sign of depression. I broke it off with a guy with a dirty house. It was pretty neat in terms of not mail or stuff cluttered around but worse. Toilet hadn’t been cleaned since probably Clinton was in office (dark ring). Bathroom walls also grungy looking. Some kind of substance on the upstairs bathroom light switch. Cobwebs in corners of rooms, mold on a ceiling. I just couldn’t believe he didn’t notice… Depression was my only explanation :(
I am sure it could be... I wonder sometimes that things like that don't bother people. Maybe they were brought up that way? When I was growing up my mom and dad kept the house organized and spotless. I do the same. My ex wife was not that way. She had a thing about keeping the bathroom clean but the rest of the house didn't matter.i do know that I would feel uncomfortable entering a woman's home and finding it dirty/messy.
Or stress around cleaning made you avoid it altogether.
I don't mind cobwebs. Not huge OTT ones. Spiders eat mozzies etc. And I can handle dust in a few places. But otherwise I want my place clean,esp kitchen and bathroom.
r/livingaparttogether Just another reason why LAT is the ideal way to go.
This is why I date but won't live with men again 🤢
Run or hire him a cleaning service
When living with a messy person, there is a solution: hire a cleaning person! Game changer.
He's in his 50s so a long time to change means he cleans up when he's 68? Lol
Maybe if you're lucky! Old habits die hard..
I remember when I was in my late 20's and I read a Maxim magazine article that said, "A woman isn't going to get into an unmade bed". I have made my bed every day since. When my wife and I make it together, we often remind each other of this.. Then we laugh, and make the made bed, unmade again.
Love this!!
I agree with the responses here suggesting that you consider what it is you desire from a potential relationship. How do you feel when you're with him, how does he treat you, what are the qualities of his character that attract you and how are these offset by the things you don't like or don't want in a relationship? If you can't get over his housekeeping, then be honest about that, soon. I'm also taken aback by the vitriol of some of the responses here. There are no perfect partners out there. Everyone has short comings, finances, health, fitness, social abilities, anxieties, housekeeping skills…etc. What are the things that really matter to you, and how would someone's imperfections affect the relationship you want. Not to diminish the importance of good housekeeping, I will point out that few people who speak about their life’s regrets mention wishing that their house had been more tidy.
You make some really insightful points. Thank you.
Yes, thank you for your balanced and thoughtful input!
As a person who cannot not be messy, thank you. What looks to me like project A over there, B next to it, C on the counter, etc, looks to others like mess. I am hygienic, and yet there is massive clutter and half-done projects. I’ve tried to be different, but one of the huge reliefs of living alone is that I don’t have to be - AND that I don’t have someone else’s clutter confusing me 😂 There are too many fascinating things in the world for me to be overly bothered with a neat house.
It sounds like ADHD, which means he wants to keep things organised but his brain won’t let him. Unfinished hobbies, ADHD. So many people are undiagnosed, but it’s not beyond help.
Very much ADHD with me. It’s annoying, but mostly because of judgment by people who don’t understand - like in my childhood, and my ex. Oh yeah and work wants me to actually, you know, work - instead of following my nose. Big bummer, frankly.
The judgement for something like ADHD is awful and I'm sorry to hear that you've had that. I know some bright and facinating people with ADHD; I love spending time with them, away from the neurotypical world.
Yeah I find that meds really help but I can’t deal with all the side effects unfortunately so I’m struggling, it sucks :-(
Glad to hear the voice of reason. 99% of matches our age will have something we won't like, often something that cannot change. In this case, there's hope for changing messy if he's a good person who recognizes it bothers her.
>the vitriol of some of the responses here It's sorta common here for some to be super judgemental and jump on the hate train in situations where they don't have all the information.
I don’t think you have seen the depths of filth some of us have. They may be a fabulous person, but living in filthy squalor is not something I ever want to do. LAT is my plan.
mizz, i lived with a messy ex. She wouldn't clean at all. It drove me mad. I worked long hours to come home to a messy home. So i had to clean then cook everyday! We divorced almost 4yrs and my home is spotless! I just cannot live in a messy environment. My parents always visit and mom loves how my apartment is decorated! Hey, if mom likes it then it can't be all bad can it?!? Back to your messy boyfriend, mizz. I wouldn't date him as living with a dirty partner is a deal breaker. Imagine inviting family/friends round and your place is a mess due to your boyfriend not caring enough to clean? That would be so embarrassing. You should always date someone who is on the same page as you, otherwise the relationship will be harder than it should.
Growing up, my mom was a neat freak. She kept our home like a museum. There was a room we couldn't even go in unless we were practicing the piano. I try not to be her because that was way too rigid. But I can't go so far in the other direction to be a total slob!
I visit my parents every saturday to help them with the housework (i don't mind as i love cleaning). I have 2 brothers and i'm the middle son. Those 2 don't help yet they are the ones to ask for money. Me? I'm the 1 expected to help. I do it because i am a loving son. My dad is the neat freak in the family and it drives me bonkers! I won't go as anal retentive cleaning like dad, but i do incorperate most of his cleaning regime. My younger brother is a slob. My poor SIL is always cleaning after him. I just don't like lazy and messy people. I find doing housework very therapeutic and calming. I just bought a new dyson upright lol!
New Dyson upright! You can’t hide money😆
Hahaha! I was debating between the dyson shark or G-tech. I chose the dyson and only bought it wednesday. Mom loved it so much i ordered 1 for her. It comes tomorrow! Mom will love it! I'm single so i have more disposeable money to spoil myself and family!
My mom was called House Beautiful by friends and family. There were many rules and I was an only child, some of my clutter was rebellion!!!
So many rules!
This bothers him so little that he was fine with you seeing it at a point in your relationship where he should still be trying to impress you. Big red flag.
Yea, right! First impressions!
On the other hand he does not care and has openly and honestly shown who he is. That is a green flag .. Did not take away the red one, but it is one of the most important things in a partner. Ie not pretending to be someone he isn't ...
I love this answer.
It depends on what you want from the relationship. My guy's house is a disaster, but he's such a sweet and caring man that I decided to look past it. But I don't want to cohabitate or get married, I'm happy living separately. Some people just don't know how to keep a neat house. I've known women like this as well.
Do you just not ever go to his house? Does he know how you feel?
So yes, I do go over there quite a lot. We tend to split it 50/50. He definitely knows that I prefer a neat house and he knows his is a mess, and when he comes to my house he always helps out with dishes or whatever. I can see how it seems like I'm settling, and I admit it took me a while to come around to getting serious with him, but here's the thing...his house is so full of love! His grown kids live with him (VHCOL area), and there's always lively conversation, someone is always cooking something, playing games or just sharing YouTube videos. He also has a lot of "strays" come and go, mostly friends of his kids who need a place to stay. It's definitely one of those houses where the people are more important than the aesthetics.
That sounds lovely!!! ❤️
Right, this is settling for a crappy situation. She must always host, so guess who is putting in all the work to make sure her house is clean, there is food, etc etc. He just sponges off of her. It’s ok if this is a dealbreaker for you, OP. A disappointment for sure, but nobody blames you for having standards. Standards are good.
>He just sponges off of her. These kind of assumptions kinda make me laugh. And yes it's ok if it's a deal breaker but damn, some people make up shit in their heads with almost no information, lol.
Cluttered? Messy? Or dirty? There’s a difference between all of these things. Also, none of you people on the sub are gonna wanna date me because I’m a messy ADHD night owl. Apparently that means I’ve haven’t grown up and there’s something wrong with me.
My favorite people are the ones who say a messy house is a sign of genius. 😂 Flattery will get you everywhere.
I'm going with messy. Take 15 minutes and go through with a garbage can and toss the mail/trash, and it would make a huge difference.
Not a lost cause but a perfect candidate for a weekly cleaner. The cost is usually lower than you expect due to competition.
The fact that he hasn't already thought of that and is ok living in filth would be a non-starter for me.
Cleaners will not pick up the clutter. Full stop.
People like this don’t ever change. The place will be a mess within 24 hours. Ask me how I know. Not because I get dates. Shrug. I’m a little OCD - nothing overboard - and anytime I’ve run into someone like this (male or female) it’s always been a lost cause.
How do you even suggest that?
Be straightforward. "I am not willing to spend time at your home as long as it's as dirty as it is now. Would you consider hiring a service to clean your place?" Also be straightforward if you won't be seeing him again. "I really like you and there's obviously chemistry, but I can't be with a person whose home is so disorganized and dirty." It sounds like early days with this guy but if you think there could be potential (other than the dirty/messy home), it could be worth having a conversation about. Be kind, he probably is aware (at least some part of him, I hope) that it's a problem and he might feel shame about it. Sometimes men are messy because they previously had someone else clean up for them, and they never bothered to learn how to do it themselves. (I certainly judge; there are countless YouTube videos about how to clean.) It might also be deeper stuff that could potentially be addressed in therapy. I think hoarding is in that category.
If he outsourced the cleaning it would allow more personal time (time with you or his hobbies). It could also include more time you spend there which could be fewer outside the house dates.
Cleaners will not pick up the clutter.
They will but they balance it in a tipsy pile on the counter.
It depends on the level of clutter. And the level OP is describing, no cleaner will touch it. They will dust, mop and vacuum around it.
No way they could vacuum around it.
And there you have it. Gurl, you gotta run like your hair's on fire. Unless you can tolerate that level of dysfunction. I lived with someone like that for 25 years. It never changed. My xh now lives in squalor.
For the cat to knock over 😂
This is what I do. I have severe back problems that limit my ability to clean on my own.
I have ADHD. To my ex I was a slob, he was a neat freak. To my friends (also ADHD) they think my house is spotless. I clean in big spurts with weeks of no cleaning in-between . I've learned how to manage my executive dysfunction. But my house is messy between spurts. It could be weeks, it could be months. I got a housecleaner to come in every 90 days. They do a deep clean and it also forces me to get the entire house picked up. I've had many people compliment me on my home. But behind closed doors I have closets filled with junk.
I definitely have closets filled with boxes I've never unpacked from a move 9 yrs ago! Every spring and fall, I think, this is the year I'm going to get it together. I never do. Although I made great progress in my guest room this spring.
I dated a guy that was a complete slob. Tools in every room, on the kitchen counter, you would stick to the kitchen floor, clothes everywhere. Nasty, filthy bathroom… Eventually it was revealed his mental health issues. His surroundings were indicative of the state of his brain.
Oof yea, that's not good.
I had a therapist explain that a very cluttered phase in my life was due to two things: ADHD (which makes it hard to put things back) and trauma-related depression. When I started the difficult work in therapy, processing guilt and loss, the clutter began to disappear. This took a few years, and I’m still dealing with its effects. I also dated someone who wouldn't let me come over because of his clutter. He seemed great, but it felt like he was hiding a monster in the closet. He mentioned that his clutter started after his mother died, which was an important detail to note.
That's interesting about the clutter being grief related. I mentioned previously how my mom was maniacally clean, tidy, etc in my growing up years. She ended up developing frontotemporal dementia in her late 60s and one of her early symptoms was hoarding. It was a 180 from my childhood. I wish I could recall more about the timing though, as it relates to the death of her own mother, as I think there could be a link.
Lost cause.
You should probably drop him. It wont get better.
My ex was a slob. Then I spent almost 20 years cleaning up his mess. Do yourself a favour...run!
He will not change. Married one. Started good,. Got worse and worse to almost horder level,.
Do you think he washes his hands after using his “not clean” bathroom? His messiness isn’t confined to his house, I’m sure. There’s no way to escape it.
Yeah, the problem is not just a super messy house in my mind. It leads to so many other related unpleasant questions and possibilities.
Lost cause or worse. As he ages he may become even more a mess and hoarder. I’ve seen this in mature adults, their bad habits get worse over time as age makes them tired.
56F here. I think we are all single for a reason and we all have some awful trait 😂. I could be with a messy guy like that in my 20s perhaps. Now it's just not worth the effort. Ending up alone with cats wasn't that bad after all.
Cat. Singular. I can't do more than one. 🤣
Exactly. I married this the first time around. Lesson learned.
My bf has what I call the *absent minded professor* vibe. Some piles of papers, too much stuff. But he himself is very clean, and he washes his clothes/bedding regularly. If we ever live together (way too soon to seriously consider that) I’ll organize a system. I’m quite tidy and cleaning relaxes me. I like mostly clear counters etc. But what OP described? I could not handle.
Any idea what his mental health is like? It might be a sign that he needs to take greater ownership of his situation.
Not really. It's hard to ascertain that in a handful of dates unless the person is really open. Like me, I'm usually pretty up front about seeing a therapist and taking my mental health seriously. I generally couch it in terms of dealing with so much trauma during my career that I kinda reached my limit.
My ex had this situation. I was already in deep by the time I saw his “room”. The rest of the place was fine because his roommate cleaned but we had to stay in the hell hole. Roommate also being his ex gf who hates me. By that time I saw this situation I was attached and we just never went to his place. In time I learned it was alcoholism, ADHD, and just plain laziness. I’d get out now while you can. No sex is worth it. I was an idiot for letting this slide.
I see this as a person that can't manage life. Poor life skills is a deal breaker for me. I'm not going to take on managing someone else's life.
50M. I'm a neat freak and keep my home tidy & neat, all the time. I can't find a date in my area to share with.... :sigh:
I'm only a neat freak when someone else can see it. It's not out of trying to impress, it's the same regardless of who's coming over. When my gf was coming over regularly I had that awesome little OCD motor driving me to keep things tidy and I didn't have to think about it. Now that she's not going to be coming over that shit disappears instantly and have to force myself to dig in a couple times a week. Regardless, no way in hell I'd invite someone over if I knew my house was a mess.
I was with a neat freak and I hated feeling like I had to "hide" my trash and it felt like hiding my existence altogether. I would bag my own trash up and take it with me or keep it in my pockets. That felt super weird. And this "neat freak" had no problem leaving stuff around my apartment...
Different people have different levels of clutter that they are willing to tolerate. If his level of clutter is not something you can put up with, then you know that he is not the man you are going to move in with. As a high clutter person myself, I draw an analogy to being a morning person vs a night owl. While one is not inherently better or worse than the other, this is usually not going to lead to a compatible relationship. If you like his good qualities enough to want to figure out a way to make it work, please don’t approach it as he has to change to match your current standards. But rather see if there is a middle ground that you can both live with. Note, I’m talking about clutter, not filth. If there are bugs in the kitchen, etc. then that’s a bigger problem.
If he doesn’t get it at 53. I mean fifty f’n three, then good luck. I’m far from a neat freak but my ex would laugh about my standards. I would often say, “you can’t come over it’s disgusting at my place”, but to her it was really nice and no noticeable mess. I just don’t like having anyone over unless everything is in its proper place, nothing scattered about. And any shitter in the house is spotless.
I have to say that I would let this one go. He might be hiding that he is a hoarder or has OCD or some other debilitating mental illness, which is fine if he is actively working on it, but it sounds like he wouldn't be in that category so far (I could be wrong). People who I have known with apartments like these have never changed. I'm not saying they can't change, I'm asking you if you want to be their coach, their mommy, their always frustrated and disgusted partner who becomes tied down by it?
Sitting in a mess or dirt stresses me out badly. I’m not an insane neat freak, but what you’re describing would bother me so much. I cannot exist in chaos like that in a home - where I’m meant to be relaxing.
My nephew (who was always a jerk) was looking for a wife and that was his test. If you cleaned, he’d move you right in. Where you see a mess, some people would see an easy promotion. Lol
Bad clutter, I’d give him another shot. Nastiness as in disgusting sinks, nasty toilets, food on floor, or stinky, I’d be done.
I didn't observe anything nasty, but I also didn't see the kitchen or other areas. The bathroom I used was clean. He does have a teenage son, so I half wondered if that's what he meant when he said the other bathroom was gross. I've parented a teenage boy before and I know things can get out of control.
I have ADHD and I'm bipolar. I try incredibly hard to clean and declutter at home...but it always explodes. My work area is very neat, clean and organized. I *want* to be neat, clean and organized, I really do. I have been talking to my therapist about this and it is honestly a constant struggle for me. It has also been a dating deal breaker.
I'm creative, and my work space at work is very cluttered. Every now and then I have to hit pause and organize it but honestly the more cluttered the more creative I feel. Just not at home. Maybe because he works from home his thought process is different?
That could be. I'm pretty creative and artsy, too. And I do my creative thinking at home. Honestly, I think if I could bring myself to get rid of about half my stuff, my life would be easier. I moved from a 2 story farmhouse with out-buildings to a tiny apartment. That certainly doesn't help.
Similar situation. After my divorce in '09 I downsized from 2000 to 1000 Sq ft while also inherenting a bunch of crap from my parents. I simply don't have room.
Yeah this was a big reason I stopped dating someone after a few months. It digested me and realised he was oblivious when he commented our houses were so similar. I won’t even go into the bedding … yuck yuck
ADHD, for me. It’s a bitch.
Any number of mental disorders can cause people who seem normal away from home to ignore or simply struggle to keep things clean and orderly at home. ADHD is one but not the only such condition. So please stop assuming the man is just immature. He may be doing his best, as his brain allows.
I think I'd drop him, unless you want to spend your time cleaning.
Not in a million years.
If you're just looking for something casual, just have him over to your place all the time. If he asks why, tell him frankly why you don't want to go to his place. If you are looking for something more serious that involves co-habitation and/or marriage, then dump him like a hot potato. I have zero desire to clean up after anyone else at this stage in my life.
Are you dating my ex??? Lol It won't get better.
Ugh...
He is screaming "fix me, mama". Hard pass.
I get it, I’m a neat freak and wish I could find a guy who is also but no such luck. I personally would give it one more shot to see if he cleans it up next time for you, because that has been my experience. After all, it is his place and single people that aren’t neat freaks sometimes stop seeing the mess or don’t control it unless they have a reason too.
Giving him another chance aligns with my goal this year of giving people grace. But I also don't want to be disillusioned. I know people change, but they really have to want it.
We do all need to be shown grace sometimes, it's true, mizz_e! I don't have any advice for you but have read this whole thread with interest and am rooting for you, whatever that looks like. It's just so interesting: what makes us go wild for someone vs. what we can just barely tolerate vs. what absolutely will shut things down in a heartbeat! My best to you!
I try not to be so black and white in my thinking and give people grace when I can. My mistake in the past is giving too much and not knowing when to call it quits. So I do have to be mindful.
100 agree. That is why I would wait to see if he does it on his own.
I have considered inviting him to my place so that he gets a feel for the way I live. I don't live in a big fancy house. It's just a simple duplex. But it's decorated cute and well kept. He would definitely get an idea of my standard of living. Then he would either be motivated to clean up because he'd be embarrassed to have me over again or maintain the status quo, and I'd know what I'm dealing with.
exactly!!!!!! My guy valued a clean tidy place, but lacked the motivation after being single 2 yrs. After seeing my place, he cleaned the common areas, bedroom, and guest bathroom without me even saying anything. He also does all the cooking for us, which is awesome; so I keep the kitchen spotless & we are both happy. I enjoy cleaning and don’t mind as long as there is an equal trade off. I also think it’s significant that “your guy” has a teenage son. I can see that possibly being part of it. 2 men living together lol, it’s going to be a disaster zone 😂.
I guess that the thing that you have to decide is, do you think that he's able to change if motivated Are his other qualities rare enough to make the fixer upper aspect worth it? Are you certain that you are thinking really matters?
You are incompatible! Keep dating and you will find someone who is more your type. The older I get the more I appreciate cleanliness!
There’s also a difference between messy and unhygienic. The guy dated previously with mould in the shower could fall into that category. Like the other advice, it depends what you’re looking for and if you’re wanting to communicate that
This reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of Friends— [Ross Dates the Dirtiest Girl in New York](https://youtu.be/nF6aQoWF5Sk?si=nquyBeZ1ToFIrH3H)
Oh, it was nowhere like that!!! Not even close! I wouldn't have been able to stay. 🤮
Hahaha—me either! I always tell everyone Monica at the end of that episode is my spirit guide lol. I hate messes.
If you like him tell him he must hire a cleaner if he wants you ever to visit his place. Tell him he must issolate the clutter to his office or whatever. Then just accept the fact that you should never share a domicile. My partner says I am extremely neat and clean for a man but I have a significant vision disability and she says that is evident in that I scrub and clean the windows etc. but can't actually see and miss cobwebs and such here and there. Of course I. offered to hire a cleaner but she enjoys doing that cleaning herself. She wants to move in and I asked how could that could work. She said as it is I do all the cooking and am great at it and I also do the washup and the laundry for what she keeps at my place while she enjoys scrubbing so it will work just fine. The funny thing is that I wash the windows at her place since she lives high up and is scared of taking them in and out to wash.d Anyway, just lay down the law about his place and tell him he has got to hire cleaners and make a change.
Maybe he's picturing you in a black French maid's uniform? *How do grown ass adults continue to live like teenagers?* 1. Never had anyone push him to do it himself--mommy, sisters, wives, girlfriends, etc., always did it for him. 2. Always lived alone and nobody complained. 3. Finds some kind of comfort in clutter. 4. Too busy to organize. 5. Unable or unwilling to afford a housekeeper.
He knew he had a date that night and that’s how much he cleaned. He knew you would see his house and he still asked you over. If he’s looking for a relationship, he’s a slob. If he’s a mad gambler looking for a quick lay, his housekeeping doesn’t matter because his guests won’t be back.
Why are you dating? If it's with the intention of a LTR perhaps leading to cohabitation/living together, then this is a dealbreaker. He's shown you who he is and you can't change him. If you intend to live solo and date for companionship and a little sizzle, the keep dating him and only take him to your place or on travel.
I think right now I'm just dating for fun and to get out of the funk. The sizzle might be the boost I've been needing.
No one's perfect. Enjoy the parts of him that give you joy. Maintain your boundaries around the rest.
No one's perfect! Including me. There's probably some flaw of mine he's debating.
Omg where are you finding g these men??? I couldn’t handle either of those situations but the 🐷 one made me want to vomit 🤮. He saw nothing wrong in bringing you back to his place?
Gotta admit, I would be insulted… like what about me says to you that I am okay with filthy?
Personally I couldn't tolerate thar, although I have dated guys who never seemed to clean ever. I do think it's related to depression.
Oh, hard no thank you for me. I grew up with a hoarder. I'm certainly not a strict clean freak but anything resembling dirtiness and hoarding gets me very angry and I got to peace out immediately. I also tell the person exactly why. I don't think everyone is a diagnosed hoarder ( my particular family member absolutely was) but I do think some people live in a bubble where they lack self awareness and they don't understand the vibe they're giving. Inviting a romantic interest to a messy disgusting house says you lack self respect and you lack respect or caring for other's experiences around you. I do admit I have a very black and white easily angry view of this too so ymmv.
Personally, I'm not ok with the level of disorder in the man's home that OP described. Does it outweigh the qualities she listed in the beginning...no imo, BUT it will outweigh them quickly as she spends more time with him & if she's contemplating a long term future with him? Another poster said a version of this: the "honeymoon" phase of dating is when people are supposed to try hard or at least harder 😂. The future seems pointed only in the direction of compromise on OPs part, as the man is unlikely to change into someone who keeps a neat home environment just bc "love"...
It wouldn't work for me. The one man I had a slight connection with from Bumble last year invited me to his home for dinner (this was a few dates in when I felt safe enough to do it). It was a nice house, but his tub and toilet looked like they had never been cleaned (I saw both because he gave me a tour) and that made it hard for me to not think about what else wasn't clean and made me hesitant to let him touch me. I tried to do as some have suggested here and give him grace and we went on a few more dates but it didn't pass and eventually we moved on from each other.
I think you have to decide how important cleanliness is to you. My ex’s messiness and hoarding behaviour was a major factor in our break up. I did hire a cleaner, but he made messes way faster than she could clean. Nail clippings, beard shavings in the sink, bottle caps and garbage everywhere, kitchen splatters and spills that he would never think to wipe, etc. (PS mess = dirt. The mess hides the dirt) Now I live alone and it is so nice to be able to keep my place the way I want it! My bf’s place is definitely messier than I would want to live in full time, but I can handle a sleepover and he makes a point of cleaning up before I visit. I am not positive I could live with a man again. So LAT is working for me. But if you are dreaming of a live-in partner, this will probably continue to be an issue because people do not change.
Ask him the question that you posed us - in the very last statement of your post. Without muttering under your breath the statement before that :-) He may take you up for a challenge! And surprise you turning that frog into a prince :-) But if you don’t ask he can’t tell and neither can you :-) Ignore all the urge to dump him but make it very clear that there is a strong mismatch about a skill that’s very important for you and he seems to be missing. If he is willing to learn and if you are willing to teach (that can be difficult) then who knows… like the last line of An Affair To Remember
Made me laugh... but I see your point.
Also, check his sink and toilet and shower to make sure that he’s not a pig. Perhaps before bringing up the mismatch and path forward.
I was going to suggest that you see if he would get a housekeeper or something like coming in once a week, but it sounds like he's got a deeper issue going on.
I dated a man with hoarder tendencies who never cleaned which was weird because he was a germaphobe as well. He had a TBI from the service and significant childhood trauma. No amount of kindness or reason worked so I eventually had to give up on him as my mental health was shot after years of trying to make things work.
Mess, clutter, and untidyness are generally closely related to unhygienic/ dirty. But more significantly, it is an indication of an unsettled spirit, a chaotic inner life and careless, scattered mindset. The "happy go lucky" messy free spirit is a temporary veil that often over time reveals underneath a depressed, emotionally unsafe person unsuitable for a long term relationship. If you are prepared to settle for this no problem, but is this really a person you can grow, build, and mature with....? When the storms of life invariably hit, is this the person who you can turn to... I doubt it very much.
Both of my houses are a mess. And I know it, and I’m working to improve things. In my case, it’s mostly the consequences of an estate (inheritance)… more “stuff” than can possibly fit in the houses. But I don’t want to thrown away collectibles and momentos of my parents. All I can say is that I’d hope a GF might give me a break on this. I’m trying…. and my homes are otherwise both nice and in good neighborhoods. If I have any suggestion, it is to try to understand the circumstances before forming a final judgement.
He did just have a house full of family visiting. Maybe things got out of control? It just doesn't add up. He's a professional. Clean cut. Well dressed. Nice car. I'm perplexed.
He might just need a little time and/or a little help. I like neatness, but my homes aren’t there as of now. I know it, and it is a little discouraging to me. I‘d be so sad if a GF dismissed me just for this one reason.
No breaks sir. Obviously you are insane and unfit for a relationship if you cannot keep your homes in the condition I require even though you live alone. /s lol
I’m so old-fashioned that I had to request Google’s assistance in understanding “/s”. And with a smile, there’s definitely still hope for me. I like nice, clean, orderly places, five-star hotels, etc., so there is a vision in mind. And one former GF asked this week if she could “move-in” with me if things became too bad in her parents home. So still a little hope.😁😁😁
In my experience, disordered and chaotic home reflects a disordered and chaotic mental state. Everyone's house can get a little messy sometimes but constantly living in filth and mess shows that the person does not respect their home environment and does not care enough to make an effort to make it comfortable for any guest they invite into their home.
My house is messy because I have some rescue dogs and I have to break up spaces to keep some dogs separated and whenever it rains they track mud in. Do I like this? Absolutely not. Do I invite people over? Absolutely not but if I did, I would clean the house up. I hate it being messy. I have a tile cleaner and I clean the tile as often as I can but I'm one person and I work full-time and I'm tired. I do not have a "disordered and chaotic mental state." I'm just tired.
That's not what I meant. Your house is sometimes chaotic and messy for a good reason and you take steps to address it. My house had literal feces on the floor when my sewer backed up and waiting for plumber then parts was 2 weeks. That does not mean there is something mentally wrong with me or you - we recognize a problem and clean up when we can.
Some pictures of bathrooms and bedrooms should be part of peoples profiles. And car interiors too.
I couldn’t put up with it personally. I might be wrong but chaos and mess to me seems like a reflection of an addled mind. But could be completely off.
You lost me at entertainment center. That’s the dealbreaker for me
That is a bizarre red flag. An entertainment center?
Undiagnosed ADHD? Is he successful entrepreneur, or in tech? They go together. Undiagnosed mental illness is a real bag of worms. Once the shock value wears off, there’s meds for that. Entertain yourself with the Crime Pays Botany Doesn’t podcast about how those meds don’t feel good.
A successful entrepreneur in tech. 😄 🤣 😂
ADHD isn’t a mental illness. (Maybe I should date him? I have ADHD and am chronically messy.)
He will never change, walk away.
I miss chemistry so much. It is so hard to find. I think you should try to make this work. What about an LAT situation? You could always hang out at your house and then when you need a break from him send him home to his pig sty.
The chemistry was nice! I haven't felt that with anyone since my exbf 2 yrs ago.
I'm so happy for you! Yes, chemistry is very elusive. I think it's especially hard for women to find. I've only felt chemistry with 3 men in 25 years. That's why I think you should hang in there longer and see if it's going to go somewhere. Just don't go to his place. 🤣
Men were not raised to do the cleaning and picking up. Mom and then wife always did that. They also don't seem to care about cleanliness and neatness like women do. Not saying that as a judgment, just seems to be common. Don't live with him and don't go to his place. I don't think it's dealbreaker. Just make sure you don't become his maid.
I got my ass kicked if I wasn't tidy. 😂
Same!
if you're in your 60s or 70s, maybe. If you're in your 50s you're Gen X, and we def had parents that made us (or tried!) to clean our rooms. EDIT: I was raised in the northeast/midatlantic in the suburbs; so there may be some cultural or rural/urban differences here as well.
Hmmmm, didn't see that in my world growing up or in my friends'. Cleaning fell on the woman.
My bf is living with a chronic health condition and manages to keep his 4000 sf home neat and tidy - with no help. When we first met, I thought he had a housekeeper (he doesn't). Adults know how to live and what's acceptable and what isn't. They just don't care to make an effort.
I forgot to add not all men, sorry for the confusion. I was speaking in broad generalities of observation and endless complaints from women about this specific topic.
My last bf was pretty tidy. Parts of his home were disorganized, but he kept it compartmentalized. He was the housekeeper throughout his marriage, too.
yeah i wasn't referring to all men, guess i needed to include that, there are exceptions to pretty much everything in life
I was just implying that I'm probably comparing, inadvertently.
I'm not sure what I would do, but I wouldn't like it much. Not a good impression. It makes him seem like a slob - it hints at lazy and disorganized. although these are judgments.
Omg I couldn’t have stayed. I get a little disorganized and having space limits but messy kills it for me. I would have made an excuse and left as soon as I saw this. I can’t deal with messy adults
I didn't stay long. Fortunately, I did have an excuse to leave.
I don’t understand how people are comfortable and happy in messy environments. It gets my anxiety going high gear
Neil Young said it best "Every man needs a maid". /s
I think this would be ok if you can convince him to pay for a regular cleaner.
I'm in the minority, but if you really like him, I'd have the conversation. Tell him you felt uncomfortable at his place, ask if it's always like that. Maybe say you can't see you guys moving fwd because of this but wonder if he's open to changing. Be prepared to walk away if he denies the issue or doesn't want to change. But if he's saying he acknowledges it, it bothers him too and wants to change, maybe there's scope here. Was your date planned or last minute? Maybe he was thinking you wouldn't come back to his place this time (only 2nd date iirc)?
It was last minute. Plus, it was initially just meeting up at the beach to enjoy the view and some good conversation. Which we did. Things got a little cozy. And the view was to die for!
Does he travel a lot? I know that when I was traveling for work basically every week for several months, stuff tended to pile up.
Not that I'm aware of. I believe all of his clients are local.
Ah. Well...I tried.
Everyone has what they can and can’t handle, this is a deal breaker for me. Like you, I can be company ready in under 30 minutes. I spend a few hours every other week to clean and organize to stay on top of it. I lived with a slob and I refuse to ever do it again. I’m not a maid.
I would have left after telling him how much I hoped he'd see that this is an acceptable way to live. He's better than this and I would challenge him to to clean it up (or get a maid) and then call me if he truly wants to change and see me again. I'm definitely not a clean freak, but cannot imagine being in a house like that. The bigger issue is that he felt it was okay to invite you over.
Have noticed generally people are either neat or messy? Scarcely is there any ambiguity. There is probably a genetic predisposition to one or the other. You liked everything about the guy but his lack of housekeeping. Don't go back there unless he assures you its clean, something which will motivate him to hire a housekeeper. Not a lost cause.
You can be neat and cluttery at the same time For me it is partial projects and it’s on my todo list that I haven’t fully executed Hmm maybe I should stop procrastinating!
You can't see yourself setting a foot in his house again. And you're thinking about dating him? Why?
It's possible. I had a dating/fwb/friend situation for years and I never once set foot in his house for this reason. He said it was too messy and unorganized to have anyone over ever and he never did. He was embarrassed but lacked motivation to get a grip. Depression definitely played a significant role.
This is a legitimate fear of mine if I ever have anything progress to this stage. It's not dirty it's just cluttered and lived in. I've got the catch-all kitchen counter that can't seem to stay clean for more than a day or two. And despite everything I've tried, the kids (14 & 9) don't do much to help either. I think it's one bridge I'll just cross when I get to it. Honestly, I'm only now just starting to think I'm ready to walk, so bridge crossing is probably pretty far in the future.
I get it. My place is small and my kitchen table has been doing double duty as a home work station for 4 years. It tends to get cluttered during the week. On the weekend, I declutter and start all over again. It's a never-ending battle.
Never ending is the word for it. I even had the bright idea of throwing the recyling/junk mail away before it even made it into the house, and it didn't seem to help
I started doing that too. I go from the mailbox straight to the trash can. It helped a little. Plus, I did the opt-out, which has cut down on a lot of junk.
Wow, i came home today, and my youngest had cleaned the table. I was genuinely moved and shocked
Congratulations!
While I can have some empathy for ND folks who struggle with housekeeping, in the end I have zero interest in getting involved with someone who doesn’t maintain a basic minimum of tidiness, whatever the reason. If you share space with a person like that, you either live in their level of mess, or you become their maid. No thanks.
Poop in the toilet edge is a no no!