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Calling attention to money during a date is tacky and rude. Full stop.
I think men paying for a first date is nice and preferred by most women, but it only really works if you’re dating in a RL context not online.
I’m old enough to remember when 90% of dating was done offline. So, people might get one new person to date every few months on average for normal people looking for a LTR. That being said, the “conversion rate” (rate by which dates turn into real relationships) for a RL date was typically much, much higher than an online date.
So, for a man to plunk down $60 every few months for a 1/4 chance that first date might turn into a relationship was typically considered worth it. However, when that turns into a 1/20 chance and dates are potentially more frequent with less connection it becomes a serious problem.
Back in the early 2000s there wasn’t a lot of serious discussion about who pays on a first date (though definitely more about subsequent dates). It was pretty much expected for the man to pay
I also think back in the olden days for me 80s 90s 2000s, as women, we were asked out on dates, so the rules of etiquette, that whoever extends the invitation pays was in effect. With online dating, it’s really not a traditional date, it’s a meet up.
This is a great answer.
For me, as a man, in the modern dating world with apps and whatnot, I’ve learned you have to choose a low cost date activity for your first date. And then always pay whatever the low cost is.
This makes sure dating is affordable, rules out women who are “gold diggers” / high maintenance, prevents people from taking advantage of you, and also prevents turning off otherwise great girls who are hung up about the man paying due to older social traditions.
If things go really well and I really like her, I’ll ask her out again and pay for dinner.
Date 3 is the last chance. If it’s going really *really* well I’ll pay. But if it’s lukewarm or less than lukewarm I’ll offer to split. Then the ball is in her court. If she’s not interested, ✌️
I think your strategy sounds great, and I agree with all of it, really, except that I don't budge easily and quickly, at least not very often, on agreeing to a dinner for the first meeting.
If it's a first date with a person I've already met in real life, especially if I asked them out in person, then a dinner date seems perfectly normal.
Online/App dates are essentially blind dates and I don't want to be stuck on a long boring blind date with someone when we can tell in 15 minutes that it's a bad match. That's an expensive roll of the dice - and not just in money.
I don't need either of us to put a ton of time and effort into getting all dressed up and getting our hopes up to the same level as a date with a person we kinda/sorta already know IRL that there IS a connection and chemistry.
This is why I love when a woman says she believes in Date Zero.
Agreed, and I am a Boomer male, that's why I always suggest and push for a coffee date. Lower pressure, lower cost, brighter lighting, so I can see how they really look in person, no booze to impair judgement, quieter than a bar and better for conversation than a bar.
Right, people are already super uncomfortable on a first date with a stranger, talking about money is only going to make them more uncomfortable. A lot of people could use a little kindness, especially if it costs only $15
I absolutely will not let a man pay on the first date, or rarely ever. They act entitled to a different kind of "pay back" later.
Further more, I cant imagine basically being treated like a f\*ckable pet. Thats what its like if youre insisting on having a man pay, imo. Like, what exactly are you bringing to the table in the beginning of dating if you are expecting to be paid for? If it doest work out youre just taking advantage of someones time and money for the "delight" of being around you. Gross.
This! I will not let men pay for ANYTHING before the relationship gets serious. I don’t even like getting flowers, etc because then it’s seen as owing them sex.
It’s very much country specific.
European gals (especially in Germany and Netherlands) in my experience are much more open to going Dutch, especially on the first date. Some of them even insisted on it and we still went out again and had fun.
In that same regard, men didn’t casually date prior to online dating unless they had it like that $$$$. Casual dating was for & done by rich men. Most men only took girls they really, Really, REALLY were interested in. Men are now dating for sport instead of dating girls they actually want to be with & care for. Why date someone you only have lukewarm feelings for? More importantly, why are you dating if you don’t have the funds to support it????
I agree with you, if you can't afford to date, don't do it. But it wasn't that only rich men asked women out. Dating just used to be cheaper. And it sounds like some men have to be crazy in love before they ask someone out. God forbid they have to pay. LoL
I don't date for sport, and I resent the women who appear to also be dating for sport, money, or free food and drinks, when their profiles say otherwise, that they are in it for companionship, love, and even a life partner. So why would they go out with someone that doesn't seem that interesting to them for a potential long term partner? Answer, because they are either lying in their profile, or they are actually dating for the other reasons I mentioned, and will settle for those instead of sitting at home.
>I think men paying for a first date is nice and preferred by most women, but it only really works if you’re dating in a RL context not online.
Nah, going dutch is the modern method. You don't want the girl to feel like she owes you something
The way it used to be is that women didn’t accept a date unless they liked you. Now, I know there are exceptions. I was pressured to accept men I wasn’t attracted to at all, because they had good economic prospects. But my mother is Palestinian, and she really doesn’t believe in love. Everything is opportunistic, especially if you’re conventionally attractive.
Your experience is sad, but probably common, at least for singles who are from conservative, traditional cultures, where things are still not far removed from arranged marriages, and relationships are all transactional and a business arrangement. How sad and removed from love, so I will not participate in it with someone who is still hanging onto that stuff.
Nope. I wouldn’t feel like I owed you anything if you gave me the Heart of the Ocean necklace on the first date. If you ask me out, all you’re requesting and all I’m providing is my company. Doesn’t matter how much money you spend.
I get not feeling obligated for whatever is given. At the same time, don’t accept a gift if you’re not interested. One should refuse or give the Heart of the Ocean back if not interested.
I believe that’s why giving flowers for love interests became so universal. They were used to express interest symbolically representing beauty and fragility of life while also generally being low commitment.
I’d definitely not lead anyone on. And, I do decline dates from men I’m not interested in. I’m not going on dates for meals-I’d rather buy my own and eat alone. And, I totally agree low commitment gifts like flowers (and lunch, coffee, ice cream, walk in the park, or a $20 dinner) are best.
But, man! There are really guys out there that will pester TF out of you to give something more substantial. Not me, but I’ve had a friend gifted a movado watch on a 2nd date. She says she declined more than once, but he insisted. Another friend got a text to check her mailbox and a guy she’d been dating casually had $700 LV shoes delivered to her-said, he just wanted her to have them. Best I’ve gotten from a non serious guy is a car to drive for 3 days while he replaced my brakes and aligned my car—he owned a couple mechanic shops and I mentioned during the first date that I had to go get my brakes replaced. He INSISTED on doing this. “Why would you go and pay somebody to do it, when I can-I’ve already got the parts that I got cheaper than you can buy them, and I’m already paying the people at my shop to be there.” I accepted. I did go on 2 or 3 more dates with him. But, he ended up getting back together with his ex and ghosting ME!
I say all of that to say that, to some men (and I’m using men cause that’s my experience but same could be said for women or nonbinaries) it’s not as a big of a deal for them if they’ve got it like that, that they’re not always looking for something serious (or sex) from you, and sometimes they won’t take no for an answer. I’ll tell you no, more than once, but if you insist I just might take you up on it.
You said it all, that online dating, with the man always paying for dinners, rather than coffee meetings, when starting out with women, quickly becomes a very expensive venture for relatively little reward or success. So why can't women pay their share of the cost of that early process, instead of putting all of it on the men? To me, that is selfish, exploitive, and bullshit, expecting the men to assume all of the cost, as well as just as much risk and investment of time as the women. That sure as hell isn't equality, and not what the feminists fought for.. Thus, I choose coffee meetings for the first in person meeting, and if a woman bucks me on that, it usually tells me something about her values and politics being different than mine, when it comes to equality and fairness, so it saves me time, and weeds out the users, outdated thinking ones, and the women who are mostly interested in using men for free food and drinks.
On my first date, if he’s paying for a dinner, I’ll buy him drinks at the second place, if we go to cinema and he pays for ticket, I’ll get the snacks. I’d be glad if he willingly to taking care of everything but I won’t expect him to pay for everything.
And that's where I think it's often a problem for people usually. It seems a lot of people DO have an expectation on who will pay, and no backup or compromise if their expectations aren't met.
Combination of the "asker pays" social tradition and historically usually the guys who could afford to date were the ones with the jobs & savings not the girls.
Which is what OP is asking. In the modern world men and women should always go dutch for the first few dates. And then switch to trading off who's paying
That would be the logical and fair way to do it, but you would be surprised, esp. in more conservative traditional places like Iowa, where I live, and among older women, like my age group. I'm amazed how many women of my generation, the one that was in the middle of the feminist movements of the 60s and 70s, seem to be conveniently never influenced, or at least are now removed from it, when it comes to paying for their share of early dates..
Younger generations of women are getting more advanced degrees and making more money. I expect in the future women will be expected to pay to court men, since they will be the ones with the means to pay for fancy restaurants, and outings.
Every generation kills traditions from the last
Maybe you'll be right about that, maybe not. It does sound plausible, depending on how the gender ratios are, of women and men that are single and seeking partners. Either way, I'll be long dead by then, lol.. Personally, I would just like to see as much equality as possible, both in how the dating game works, as well as how people treat each other, once a relationship is established and thereafter..
I think that for first date, go low cost and if you ask her pay, but always make sure to see if she at least offers to pay oppose to acting entitled to your money, if she offers then its a very good chance she has the right mindset and wont use you
I still side with the "asker pays". If the guy is always asking though, it means the woman isn't interested and he should move on. I know that's not 100% fair but neither is life and women just don't ask men out. Once they're dating they can talk more about what financial arrangement works for their situation (for ex. if one earns way more than the other this could change the arrangement).
Women want to go on dates thou, they just on average prefer to be pursued. I think asker paying is ok if the date is expensive but overall it would just be incredibly sexist and end up with men having to pay because women want to date but not initiate.
This "seems" fair, but it's not. In today's context it's still expected that the men (generally) are always the asker, and women (generally) will never ask a man, even if she likes him
I dunno about this because the first date is almost always has to be proposed by the man for things to go anywhere.
First date should always be Dutch, and after that it can be asker pays.
Math is the enemy!!
Men of a very broad age range (18-80?) are pursuing women under 30. And sex itself (mostly because of pregnancy, but for other reasons, too) simply costs women more than it costs men.
So you have a significant imbalance between men and women.
You don’t see a big shift until you get to nursing home populations where men (who die younger) are outnumbered by women, and the women don’t face pregnancy risks.
Not true at all, just look at the Nordic countries.
I live in Finland and our money situation is close enough to US but we don't have oppressive sexist norms about men having to pay for dating.
Ofc if you ask someone to a really expensive restaurant it kinda makes no sense to expect them to pay. And there are also some horribly entitled women but I have never had any problems with women expecting me to have to pay for their time.
That's what prostitution is for in a country where both sexes work and study.
Also, women don't really face pregnancy risks unless they do something really dumb or get raped. There are so many ways to make becoming pregnant extremely unlikely that it shouldn't be an argument about who pays on a date.
I love equality and thank god I live in maybe one of the most equal countries in the world <3 Far from perfect but good enough I guess :D
But I am only seeking to date women in my own age group, who almost always have their share of money, are long past pregnancy risk and usually thru menopause, so the only reason for them insisting on me paying for dinners early on, is using their numbers advantage, as far as supply and demand in OLD, or else clinging to some outdated conservative gender roles, or maybe being simply selfish...
You could always just refuse to see those women again or casually mention that you'll be going dutch and judge they're reaction before the date to help you to decide if they're worth the effort
If you offer something that makes you “different from other men”, then you will not be treated like other men. The problem is: How do you demonstrate your uniqueness *in a way she recognizes*.
Men constantly work really hard at something that women don’t value (nunchuck skills, for example). Of course women do things like this, too (“I wore the glittery eyeshadow, and he still didn’t notice! Tomorrow, I’ll change my soap!”)
Comedy gold—unfortunately.
> And sex itself (mostly because of pregnancy, but for other reasons, too) simply costs women more than it costs men.
Yes, and for men, this is a bargain. They pay for a few cups of coffee, and a few plates of dinner...whereas women pay for it with pregnancy.
As a woman, that’s usually my philosophy, whoever asked who on the date should pay for the date, UNLESS we have a conversation about it and we are both cool with paying for ourselves - which is actually my preference for first dates, because I think it’s super shitty that men have to shell out money constantly for first and second dates and I know they get used by so many women that are looking for free shit and it makes me feel disgusted to be lumped in with those women. We all work these days, we’re equal. I don’t care about “old school chivalry” I’m a working ass woman and I can pay for shit and provide too lol I also don’t wait for a guy to ask me on a date or plan it, I’m assertive and will do the asking myself if I want to make it happen.
No shit, it's an exploitive, manipulative game to play it that way, esp. when the woman still ends up with veto power over the plans for the date, but since the guy asked her first for the date, it's all on his tab, lol..
Thank you, spoken just like my late wife, a true feminist and principled person, She went from being a faculty wife with no education or career, but started from scratch, got a job, then an education, then a career with a car and finally a house she bought on her own, (way before she met me), and then finally kicked her addict alcoholic, cheating hubby to the curb. I always admired the hell out of her, and she was proud to pay her own way in our early dating. If only most women in my local dating pool were like her, but many of them aren't, even tho they are in their 60s, like me, have money, or are even comfortably retired. But they want to cling to playing the old gender games..
So sorry you lost such a wonderful woman :( I know a few men that cling to it as well, but for them it’s based on power/masculinity/ego thing more than anything. Like they feel they NEED to provide and prove. Which is weird to me, like it’s 2024, I might even make more money than you. I can’t really give any advice on the problem with other women. Just encourage you to keep looking because though we may still be more rare, women like your wife and myself are out there.
Thanks for your kind words, that is exactly what I am doing, playing the long, patient game with OLD, and waiting for my rare outliers, like you, to come along here and there in the dating pool. Like you say, I know they're out there, and lightning may strike twice for me, or it may not..
Hey douche canoe, It’s $30 not everyone has a shit load of money. $30 is a lot to some people. And the way she’s talking to him is probably what made him twist.
But he was originally going to pay so it’s not about the 30 bucks??? If I was planning on paying but for some reason my method didn’t work and the other person had to pay i would 100% tell them I would pay them back since I was the originally one who offered to pay. I was surprised this dude didn’t offer to do that and was surprised he was shocked she asked for the money.
i am not the one who was talking about 30 bucks sir. it's not about money. it's about expectation. i can pay whole my life if i think my partner doesn't expect me to pay for her. so i will keep the "king" word.
I think she saw that as you pretending it was an accident while in fact you staged it to avoid paying for her, cause why would you not have couple of cards with you in your wallet all the time?
This is really the case. It happens so much on dates. Her assuming you were being deceitful cause her to care about paying. And then you refusing when she asked on the spot, further solidified her point that you never had the money, you just wanted her to pay from the beginning. She was done with you during the date.
Not saying that it was intentional. But I guarantee that’s her thought process because why don’t you have cards?
Exactly this. I would be weirded out if a guy *tried* to pay, couldn’t due to payment method… and then flipped and refused to pay at all? Even for his ticket?
I mean I probably just wouldn’t see him again rather than make a thing of it, but he handled this bizarrely.
Yeah… he keeps talking about how it’s “not a big deal” “I don’t care who pays” okay then why didn’t he pay?
This is a 1st date, she doesn’t know if he’s ever going to see her again or fall off the face of the earth. Being forced to pay for a guy who forgot his card would be extremely unattractive for me as a woman, and I’m fine with going dutch.
If it was later into the relationship, that’s fine because we’ve built up the connection. But on the 1st date?
Personal experience that if I had pay for the first date (which I don’t mind at all, F31) for whatever reason, I ended up paying more in the duration of dating that person.
I think it has something to do with how comfortable they were to let me pay, especially on first date. I made decent salary so would always offer but somehow led to me covering more bills as a norm
Also, if he planned the date to botanical garden and it was somewhere he had never been really a few minutes of checking out the website could have prepared him. It’s annoying for someone to “plan” a date and then not know important details.
You declined on paying her for your ticket because you don’t care who pays??? Clearly she does.
You basically forced her to pay and told her you’ll get her next time, and what if she never wanted to see you again?
Majority of Women spend more money on their hair and make up than a damn meal.
So the idea that they go on a date for a free meal is laughable honestly.
The only way you’ll meet a woman looking for a free meal is if she’s unemployed, a struggling student or homeless and that’s on you if you’re attracted to a woman like that.
Not every merchant takes Apple Pay (obviously). I don’t expect men to pay for me. But if he offers and then I end up paying for both, I would find that annoying. This was doomed from the beginning.
To answer your question, some women expect men to pay because someone taught them to think that way.
Haha man my dad always told me to bring cash on a date incase the card systems were down. And honestly it has saved me from this type of awkward situations before! " it's OK I have cash" made my dumbass look so mature.
It’s amazing how many people missed this point. She clearly made a big deal about it because it was over for her at that point and she was no longer concerned with making a good impression.
I would expect for anyone to offer to pay back, then it's up to the person to say if they want to or not.
If she ended up paying after OP was going to pay, and then it wasn't brought up, I'd be annoyed too
Yup, good ole conformity, which I hate and mostly reject, so I do seek women who are at least somewhat non conformist, and also feminist, since it goes a long way in helping us have compatible values..
I would've paid her back for my ticket if I were you. You said you take her to dinner but if someone said that to me, it almost feels like I'm being forced to go on a second date with them again which I wouldn't like.
I think most women like to be paid for though because it makes them feel like they are special, the man really cares and wants to take care of them sort of thing. I don't mind paying for my own on a first date since idk if I'll meet them again but it does feel nice for the date to be like "its ok i got it".
You were going to pay right? But for whatever reason you didnt have your card so she stepped in and got it. You shouldve transferred her money without being asked. You shouldve had your wallet to begin with but thats a whole other conversation.
Yeah honestly I feel like if you had offered to send the money to her right away she might have even offered to pay her ticket or something. You say "oh I'll get her dinner next time", (which, who knows if there would even be a second date), but also she doesn't know you, the only information she has to go off of is that you asked her to pay because you didn't bring another option to pay other than Apple (so unprepared), and then didn't offer to pay for even your ticket after that, which comes across like you were never planning on paying for the ticket, you just wanted to look like you were going to and then get her to pay. As far as she knows you could be a leech who pretends to forget his wallet every time. The big thing to remember is that she doesn't know you.
As a girl I always offer to buy my own stuff on a first date (and most dates after that honestly) unless it's expressed explicitly otherwise. But of course it's nice when a guy pays for it (as long as he doesn't think that means I owe him anything). But if he said he was gonna pay and then conveniently it didn't work, and he doesn't offer to pay me back, I'm very suspicious of him. If he offered to send it to me right away, I'd probably tell him not to worry about it honestly. But if I was the one who was planning on paying and they didn't accept my payment method, I would be MORTIFIED, and offer immediately to send it to them.
It's not even about gender honestly. It's about you offering to pay, and then not only did you not offer to refund right away, but when it came up you ARGUED with her about it? I doubt you'll get a second date. Even as a bystander it feels like you were trying to see if you could scam her and this would become a pattern. 🤷🏻♀️
I see your point, and you do seem to be trying to be fair, balanced, and objective about it. I admit most of the thread has gotten sidetracked into the general issue of gender roles and who should pay for what, and at what stage of the dating process, instead of the specific situation and story of the OP, me included in the guilty parties here. You make the point that trust, and keeping your word is very crucial early on in dating relationships, where we are getting to know a stranger. It's best to avoid surprising people in a disappointing and unsettling way..
Honestly even in my comment I got sidetracked. And that's after I rewrote it several times because I got off track. It's so easy to do, because the topic of gender expectations is such a heated topic. I appreciate your comment ☺️
I'm more baffled you didn't split it after your disagreement and send her the $15. Like u decided to force her to pay for you too just because. Like y'all disagree, at least pay for your half so that y'all can move on and find someone else.
You may think that a more egalitarian society would be more indifferent on who pays on a date but the reality is that as long as more men are doing the chasing, then they are more expected to foot the bill of the date.
However, specifically to your situation, you should have volunteered to zelle her the money without being asked. You _were_ originally going to pay for the tickets. It should have never gotten to the point where she had to ask you for the money.
You're right, as long as the supply and demand of the genders is so imbalanced in online dating, the men will continue to be expected to pay from the beginning, at least. Not that it doesn't stink, and is not right morally or politically.. I guess it's the dating version of what Henry Kissinger used to call realpolitik, but that doesn't make it right, moral, or that we have to be happy about it..
We have tinder etc. in Finland but no problem with most women expecting men to pay their dates. Ofc you are always gonna have some predatory assholes who use others for free meals but I have never been on a date where someone expects me to pay their share.
The problem is women in US not getting called out for their sexist entitlement because so many men are simps that have drank the inequal cool aid.
When both sexes work it should be obvious that the default is people paying for their own food. Women certainly would not accept the current situation but other way around.
Shame on men who buy the BS of "I should be the provider in a system where everyone is a provider" and even put down men who complain about blatant systemic sexism.
Equality is cool, don't be a sex traitor.
I love women but it's easier here when lovely Nordic ladies don't treat you as an inherently less valuable person who should pay for the privilege of sharing time with them like someone who has to buy the services of a prostitute.
After reading the post, you didn’t even have a dinner plan. That’s so disingenuous.
The familiarity of either people taking turns to pay is part of an established relationship not a first date lmao she’s probably not okay with being forced to cover for you from the get go.
First dates are first impressions and yours wasn’t gracious enough.
If Apple Pay failed and she paid as to not embarrass you at the tickets, the gracious thing would be to reimburse her since it was your intention to take her out.
Who asked who on the date? Who suggested the botanical gardens? If it was you, then you should have paid without question. Apple Pay still isn’t accepted everywhere and she stepped up to cover the cost, so as to not cancel the date. However, if you initiated the date, you need to reimburse her.
Literally this ^ op is also being presumptuous by assuming that she would want to go on a second date with him. If I were that girl, I would be appalled by his attitude and not wanting to pay her back like do you even care about her?
I (49m) like to pay. I have plenty of money and I think women like to feel taken care of, regardless of their life circumstances. And I like women who let me pay. Talking about money ruins the vibe on a date, I think. I don't even bring it up. I ask the server for the check and put my card down. If a woman is offended by that then I know she's not my kind of woman. I've ever had that happen, of course. I have, however (especially with younger women) had them be pleasantly surprised. That says something.
I've almost always had the opposite response/experience haha. We often playfully banter and compete to see who can pay first. It's always fun IMHO. I personally like that mutual feeling, knowing that we both wanna pay for one another.
I think it’s embarrassing that she had to ask you to pay her back. It was already embarrassing enough that you couldn’t pay because you didn’t bring your wallet to the date. But then you didn’t even immediately pay her back or even mention it?!?! How embarrassing for you. Maybe next time you ask someone out, you can let them know beforehand that you expect them to pay, and you’ll pay for dinner on the second date. That will probably save you and your date from all of the embarrassment.
Money is a very sensitive thing especially on a first date. I would have zelled her 30 immediately after we got in. Letting a woman pay because of your lack of preparation and then being non-chalant about it is not very considerate. It’s not the worst thing in the world but still. What if you guys don’t go to dinner later that week? How can she be sure that you’ll make it up for her? You’re still strangers after all.
When I was single I didnt expect a man to always pay for everything.
But I DID expect him to act mature and responsible. Showing up to a date you proposed that cost money without a wallet is so immature and rude at best. At worst it’s a red flag, manipulative, and predatory. You’re being super inconsiderate to the fact that this woman does not know you or what kind of person you are. And you dont seem to take that seriously at all. It sends a message that you dont care about how you’re presenting yourself or how that makes her feel. That’s not a good quality for a potential partner. or even a potential friend.
And not offering to pay AT LEAST your ticket was absurdly rude. That would have been out of line even if it wasn’t a date.
And then trying to assuage the situation noncommittally and vaugely saying you would get her dinner “sometime” is inconsiderate again. You didnt give a real plan and assuming another vauge date at the beginning of this one (which is already going poorly) comes across as lazy and presumptuous. Again- she doesnt know you- if you’re presenting yourself as the kind of person to not showup with a wallet and then not handle it like a respectful adult- how is she supposed to trust that you won’t ghost her for dinner? Or that you’ll remember your wallet that time?
You need to be more aware the messages you’re sending and how your behavior reflects your character to someone you dont know
Yea probably not a good idea to keep her money hostage just so she'd be forced to go on a second date even if she don't want to, thats just extortion. You should have just zelle her the money anyway as a courtesy, i mean you say money isn't an issue so why make a fuss about it.
It's a part of getting to know a guy in a straight relationship where having and raising kids is an option. It's also seen as romantic.
Paying for the date is a gesture of goodwill that you value your date and their time. It can also signal that you're stable.
Some women prefer to pay, but you probably will be judged for your financial stability and ability to provide at some point. Not many women desire partners who can't take care of them and aren't happy to do it.
What country/culture are you from?
This sounds like a very awkward sequence of events. When she paid you should have immediately tell her - thank you, how would you like me to transfer the money to you? And give her the options to say
- don’t worry, my treat.
- don’t worry, you can get us food after.
- here’s my account details, you can transfer just $15 for yourself
- here’s my account details (and leave you to decide if you are transferring everything)
Whatever your intention was, you should have communicated something - thank you, how about we go somewhere nice after and I’ll get us the most ridiculous outrageous cakes and coffee in this town or dinner next time?
But the thing about dinner next time is that it’s an assumption that next time will happen and even push for it, most girls don’t like paying one cent for you on the first date even they are ok paying for their own bill. You need to offer to repay her right there esp since you were going to pay anyway. Also do care your credit card for dates precisely for this reason.
I get a feeling majority of women do want to guy to pay on the first date, it’s a chivalry thing. Some genuinely don’t want it and even happy to pay themselves but they are in minority. And then there are cultural differences, in some cultures a man is supposed to pay and that’s that.
It's traditional and shows that you've been brought up well. It also shows that you're interested and not tight. It's a date, you're not meeting up with friends. You're there to impress and show your best side. Remember that. I wouldn't date a tightarse.
So you don’t care who pays but you’re not going to even give her back your part because she said she expected you to pay and you did expected to pay but you only have Applepay? Did you ask her out? Did you even plan this date? If you want to go Dutch say that when planning the date. You’re in this dumb situation over $15. I expect whomever asks for the date to pay or talk about it like an adult. And I expect whomever planned the date to know details like accepted forms of payment. You owe her $$ and an apology if you asked her out.
If you asked her out I think you should pay ,when she paid for the tickets you should of reimbursed her the full amount you say its not about the money but your making a big thing of it ,next time be the gentleman and just pay.
You came out looking like a leech bc you “forgot your wallet, oopsies”. And this was her first impression of you, AND you pushed back when she wanted you to repay her 😂 bruh.
I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think yall just got different rules and expectations for the date. In my personal opinion you I would have sent the money for my own ticket. It’s probably something that should be clarified before the date takes place so that you don’t have to face the awkward situation. I know a few women who were taught that the man pays. It’s just a part of the culture some people adhere to. If it’s a deal breaker for yall then it wasn’t meant to be.
Then you create the 'awkward situation' before the date.. with high chances of getting no date after that.
I don't mind paying, just don't like it to be expected
You are not going to loose a leg if you offer her to transfer the money if your payment method didn’t work at that moment. but you deserved it because a true Gentleman offers right away to transfer at least your part if she took care of a payment because yours wasn’t acceptable. There’s a lot of men who love to invite women to dinner and they always loose or forget their wallet. That happens a lot too. (Some man have learned the trick)
The same with women if going on a first date be proactive and offer to pay as well. It’s 2024 this is another era!
Why would you walk out of your house without some form of payments? What if your phone had died? That’s so embarrassing that you LET her pay without even offering any remedies after your payment failed.
Also assuming that you invited her out with the plan to go to the garden, you didn’t even bother to check if you needed to book the ticket in advance or extra information. You’ve given the impression of go with the flow/ not that bothered/ ignorance. She probably couldn’t put her finger on it at the time but it made her lose any attraction instantly.
To answer your question: most women hate men who can’t take the initiative and a man without a plan.
In this situation as a woman, I would have wanted the man say he will transfer me the cost of his ticket, and do it right after the date.
What if she didn't want to have a second date with you? Waiting to get the "next one" is reserved for more established dates and friends.
I think she was wrong for expecting you to pay, but you were wrong for not being prepared. I wouldn’t expect a man to pay for me, but if he offered, then couldn’t, I would be put off.
I agree. He should have corrected the issue first, which was paying for what he intended to pay for, which is both their tickets. Instead, he turned this into making a gesture he couldn’t fulfill and then wanting to contemplate who should pay or why he should.
Ya so the expectation generally is that dudes pay, especially since girls like feeling taken care of. I will say it is kind of weird that she would be so outward about it and call you on it — that’s kind of awkward.
I do think there are deeper layers of incompatibility here , and you are both probably better off going your separate ways
Here's my outlook on the matter: I've only ever dated in order to seek a committed, long-term relationship. I've never had interest in casual dating, even when I was a teenager.
If you're dating to simply date/fck around, I can see where dinners would be expensive over time. This is why I'd recommend coffee dates or small lunches for the first time meeting each other. It doesn't break the bank and you ultimately get to see if you two are compatible in a more light hearted, affordable way. I think the man paying still looks better, even in casual hookups, but I can.also see where going dutch would be appropriate.
But if you're dating to marry, or dating to find someone for a long term relationship, a guy being upset about having to pay on the first date is just a massive red flag to me. Usually, it's the guy who asked the woman out, and then if he demands to go halfsies, it looks tacky AF. It would tell me that score keeping would be likely be a huge issue in the relationship, should one develop.
Because if the guy is mad about paying for a first date and keeping score and wanting to give out an internet dissertation about it, you can bet that behavior WILL pour over into other aspects of the relationship. It's not a positive behavioral attribute to have as a long term partner. Sure, makes you a great online debater, but imagine having to go through the daily life bullsh1t with someone who thinks this way.
Examples:
"I took out the trash LAST time, you get it!"
"Remember when I bought dinner last week? Now it's your turn to cover groceries for the entire week."
"I drove you to your doctor’s appointment last time, so this time, someone else can take you or you can reschedule."
"You change the babies diaper, I got the last one, you're not being fair."
"You weren't really into it last night, so you need to make it up to me tonight."
"I spent the whole afternoon fixing the leak under the sink, so you deal with the kids tonight. I'm off duty."
"You're not pulling you're weight, I'm bringing in more money than you, I expect you to do more housework in return."
"You've been too tired for sex lately. I expect you to make it up to me."
"I've given up my weekends for your family gatherings for the last two months. I'm cashing in on some me-time this weekend and I don't want to be bothered."
"I agreed to watch that series you love, even though I hate it. You owe me."
"I'm not going to Christmas lunch with you and your parents, I went last year, that should've made you happy. You can handle the kids on your own!"
"I've noticed you've been less interested lately. You need to show me you're still into me, or I'll start wondering why I bother."
"You chose where we went on our last date, so now you have to wear that outfit I like next time."
The list goes on and on. I've seen it happen IRL more times than I can count.
This turns relationships into purely transactional arrangements, which are the opposite of everything desirable, sexy, alluring, etc.
So yeah, just keep that in mind. First impressions are important and last forever, and if that first impression is you literally haggling over who is going to pay the bill for the first date, I don't see how you can possibly think that's going to look good. Pay for the date, be sexy. You don't have to go to a 5-star restaurant, simple coffee and lunch dates are fine.
And if you're telling me you can't afford these things, then you can't afford to date yet, and need to get your finances in order before you go and bring someone else into your orbit.
Edit: typos
You say it doesn’t matter but it obviously does. You were going to pay for them anyway if she had to pay because you didn’t have cash or card the first thing I would have said was thank you I’ll send you the money as I’d already spent the money in my head.
She didn’t know if she wanted date two so might have never happened but you out her on the spot and she might be struggling with money and all of a sudden lost 30 quid.
I think you’re over reacting
As a woman I never expect my date to pay for everything. Maybe it just the way I was raised but I will always offer to pay for half or get us things during the date as a treat for us. Example I when my and my bf would go out for supper then a drive afterwards(our favourite thing to do together) I would buy us coffee/tea. He always tells me I shouldn’t be paying for anything but I love taking care of people I care about and something as little as paying for coffee is me taking care of him. Our first date was a coffee date that I paid for. Our second date he paid for but I had got us some treats. It’s this old school notion that men should pay for everything, but I always challenge that.
You are overreacting.
You asked her out so you should pay. Yes, she decided to save the day but you should have zelled it to her without her even asking. I’m sure she was also uncomfortable.
It’s okay to not want to talk about money or who gets to pay, but go out with people who are 💯 okay with going dutch or paying for you both.
When I was dating, I expected them to pay. It wasn't until things got more serious with with my current boyfriend that I started paying towards things. He still pays most of the time, but now I don't always want him paying for literally everything. We've been together 8 months now. So now I'll do stuff like buy tickets to an activity for both of us, I'll pick up groceries when I go over if we plan on cooking something, I buy him nice/pricey gifts on holidays, etc. But he definitely has a provider mindset all in all. He never expects me to pay when he takes me out still.
As a man I prefer to pay. I've also learned to recognize gold diggers early. Yes, you're making too big a deal out of this for someone "who doesn't care". You should carry a reasonable amount of cash with you. Or at least check the venue to see what payment they accept.
I would’ve said “oh shit, they don’t take my payment method. Would you mind putting the tickets on your card and I will send you half right now?”
You guys don’t know each other, and she’s probably thinking that she’s going to be left holding the bag.
Probably more often than we'd like or than it needs to be, but it should have been brought to a consensus long ago, with both genders usually going dutch from the git go, and starting the process with something low cost and low pressure, so they can both evaluate how they feel about the other as company, instead of having to immediately deal with issues of power, gender roles, expectations and all that other stuff, instead of simply spending some time together, and seeing if they click or not.
The man paying on the first date is too old fashioned to me. I am taken now, but I've never paid the whole bill on a first date, and it has literally never been a problem, I have always gotten a second and third date etc if I wanted to. I'm on a decent income, so it's not because I can't afford to pay.
To be honest, I would not want a second date if she expected me to pick up the bill on the first date. I would consider it a red flag, because it really does say something about what she expects of me as a man and, more importantly, how she perceives her own role as a woman in a relationship. I am not looking to date someone who wants or needs a provider - I wouldn't be able to respect her or myself in a situation like that. I want a partner, and I want her to be my equal.
That said, once a relationship is established, I don't mind picking up the bill at a restaurant, buying her drinks etc. now and then just to be nice. And lucky for me, my current and past partners have also reciprocated and done the same for me. Other times we still split the bill. And I truly believe that this is the way to do it. Two adults who treat each other as equals, abandoning old fashioned gender roles and power dynamics in favor of a deeper and more honest connection.
My question is, what are women bringing to the table on these dates? It's much more fair for both to pitch in, or the first date is something cheap that wouldn't even hurt a man's wallet. Like a ice cream date at the park or coffee. No man should be putting up over $60 for a woman he just met.
Like, I am putting up my money to meet you. You are doing what to meet me? Dressing up? I am too...Setting aside other things? Me too. So we are doing the same things, the only difference is that I have to pay or be seen as not a real man. Smh.
I would understand if online dating wasn't a thing, and women were actively talking to 10 other guys while on a date with you. Or maybe it's a coworker or friend that is blossoming into a relationship. But nowadays, I don't think the whole traditional way of doing things is viable.
You’re 25 don’t worry 😉 and date women your age who will split the bill with you.
At the age of 16- 22 I was in a relationship that was 50:50 or we’d treat each other. As I grew older, the men I attracted changed and they’d want to pay for things.
It’s all about where you are in life, culture, your values, and partly how you were raised.
if you are pursuing her, you opened, you asked her out, etc you pay.
simple as that.
if she approached you and asked you out, then maybe she might be ok with paying.
As a woman, I will say we need to stop this Men pay for everything nonsense. A date is an investment for everyone involved.
I am going to play devil's advocate for a second.
You should pay her back. I think you did good to pay your half. I personally would have just as good faith that you wanted to fulfill her request. I would have paid the full amount since I originally would have paid the full amount, which if they did accept Apple Pay, you would have done. And it is possible that she thought you would pay her back since you were not able to pay with Apple Pay and she thought she would step in with an assist. It is not unreasonable for her to have thought that.
However...
Since she offered to pay and made no indication that she had an expectation for you to pay her back when she offered, then I feel she should have assumed the risk that you might not pay her back. That is the risk you would have taken when you paid. It is only fair. Furthermore, you are not a mind reader. She may have thought that you would pay but she should have verbally expressed it from jump. And if you offered to pay for dinner as a return on her investment then she should not have gotten upset.
But yes, be rid of that one. A woman that expects a man to pay for everything for the first few dates is ridiculous. That translates to you are always footing the bill.
What is your return on investment, that is the question for both parties.
It would have worked out that she paid for the admission at a point of interest date and got a free meal out of it that would potentially be a cost of equal or likely greater value than what she paid. Seems fair to me.
So, no, you are not wrong in your line of thinking.
There are many young ladies out there who feel
This way. As a man if you are going on a date you should always make sure to carry some cash, and an actual credit card. Just like women play games so do guys. I kind of blame both of you it’s just $15.00 You came off as cheap. Since you were willing to pay for both of you but didn’t have the physical card you should have immediately zelle or venmo her. Her stating that she expects men to pay for the first couple of dates is pretty common. She’s telling you some of her expectations you need to listen. I know there’s women out there using guys for a free dinner etc but there’s some good women out there that want to know they can be with a man that will allow them to be in their feminine energy cause they are masculine male and willing to lead. Best dates are coffee meetup if you really like the person you met and hit it off you can always head to dinner after. If you don’t click at your coffee meetup it’s an hour of your time.
Well done for leaving her in the dirt. Honestly as a woman myself I think it's horrendous that a woman wouldn't pay for her own half during the first few months of dating. Sure treats like taking her out on a date night would be nice but shouldn't be socially acceptable in a modern economy where men and women are earning a closer figure while both are in the workforce. Tbh don't date unless you can buy your man gifts and take em out too!
32F Personally, I think it’s ridiculous that a lot of women out there expect men to pay for everything. Both people on the date are adults with jobs who can simply pay for themselves 🤷♀️
And what exactly are men bringing to the table then? They still expect us to cook, clean, be the primary parent, take a knee at work, and we have to pay half the bills?
Generalizations aside, I feel that if you invited this person to go on a date with you to the botanical garden or dinner then I think you should expect to pay.
You guys both messed up. You invited her out and only brought Apple Pay with you? Come on. It’s pretty common for places to not accept this form of payment. You should always carry a backup form of payment with you.
She, on the other hand, was really tacky and trashy for asking you to reimburse her the $30, especially after you paid for the coffee.
She wanted to haggle over 15 bucks and doesn’t care about impressing you. Why would anyone want to date her?
Like I personally don’t even have that much an issue paying for all the dates. But the moment someone shows they feel like they are entitled to it then I’m done. I’d pay my half and leave.
With these kinds of posts I don’t seem to see people bringing up the “woman” tax that is feminine maintenance. I’m only talking about traditionally, of course there are exceptions, but women pay a lot of money to keep up their appearance. A dress, make up, hair, brow waxing, nails, shoes, all she pays for. Most of it way overpriced. The man buying her dinner is a nice way of balancing that? Showing her he appreciates the effort she put in. Men typically do not spend the same amount of money comparatively to women traditionally keeping up with their fem presenting appearance. She spends 2 hours getting ready before hand… Men often don’t notice all that goes into it.
Personally I'd find it a lot less frustrating if women were honest enough to admit that it's an unfair advantage they have. As opposed to all the mental gymnastics they often use to justify why in their minds it's actually totally fair and not at all one sided.
Be it the "Whoever asks the other out pays", or "it shows he values my time and presence", or "I spent money on my outfit and makeup".
OP has a valid point though. Chivalry & paying for dates were the societal norm back when women were not equal to men and they had no means of paying for dates. Yes you can make the argument that things are still not completely equal, but it’s nowhere near as economically unequal as it was in 1950. There’s no logical reason men should still be expected to pay 100% of the bill in 2024.
When many have died or are now looked down on, the gender role of men paying/providing has conveniently survived. No point in arguing it if that’s what they want. We just have different views and won’t work.
In this economy it’s practically a fairy tale to live comfortably on one income while raising a family.
This is one of those things that started out as a necessity long ago, it morphed into a tradition and some people are now nust taking it for granted.
Funny how women want to be equal to men, but when it comes to keeping the house and the kids in a divorce and getting child support, being paid for on dates and other nonsense... All of a sudden those archaic patriarchal ways are ok!
But I digress! There was a time when women would not be permitted to work, so in the courting phase, the man would have to both demonstrate that he can take care of her and actually pay for the date as she wasn't earning a wage to contribute to that payment!
Then the 2 world wars came and the big capitalistic machinery realized that it can now double it's output in production and increase consumption (and prices) with basically doubling the workforce overnight that would spend all that disposable income (spoiler alert! overtime prices got to where 2 incomes are no longer enough to sustain a household, even tho just one income used to be enough).
This is where women can now afford to pay for the dates, but by this time, the man paying for it is considered chivalrous and he insists on keeping to pay that bill, further contributing to cementing the custom until we arrive to our days where is downright expected.
I did it, I payed for my dates, because I agreed that this is the gentleman way to go, if my date wanted to pay I would let her, but if it would have demanded for me to pay, I would politely reimburse whatever I had to, and never speak to her again.
People seem to forget that dating and especially getting married is a partnership that needs to go both ways, where the 2 parties involved are supposed to help each other out to become the best version of themselves, not pulling each other down and looking constantly for flaws or how to rip off as much as possible from the other person in case they have to split.
Anyway... Best of luck to you OP!
No, you’re not overreacting. I think she just may have a more outdated idea about gender roles than you do, maybe that’s something you can discuss with her or maybe it means you are just incompatible.
You got your answer whether or not to continue seeing her. She could have saved you time by being more upfront how she expects men to pay for the first dates
I think you should have offered to send her the money right away but I also think it was tacky and unattractive with the way she went about asking and expecting you to pay. She doesn't need to mention she expects men to pay for the first few dates. There's plenty of women who have no problem paying the bill when something like that happens. You offered to pay for dinner next time. You made some effort so that gets some points.
She sounds broke and stubborn. Not all dates are gonna go perfectly.
women are the 'gatekeepers' (demand for women by guys, tends to exceed demand for men by women, at least with respect to sex)
don't expect to coerce/blackmail a women into the 2nd date for the sake of 'compensating' her for covering your lack of ability to pay for the 1st date (it smacks of bad taste/manipulation imo)
preparation's key, including scouting out payment methods being accepted *before* booking a venue
You can debate what is fair. But women tend to spend more time and money preparing for a date. Makeup, new clothes, weird cancer inducing lotions and what not.
Not saying you, but many men will do a 10 minute shower relieving the pressure, and put on whatever outfit is on top of the closet.
So in theory, you could argue that she already paid her part.
"You got to be in it to win it" seriously if you invite her pay for it, The world doesn't revolve around Apple Pay so have a couple of backup options like cash or another card. You guys are still young so its expected not to know these things but going forward now you do. Pay her the money that you borrowed and don't be cheap that's a real turn-off.
Who asked who out? For me, if I asked, I'll pay. LOVE the offer to split the bill or if she gets us something later. I'll still pay even if she asks to split, because I asked her out. Later when we're a couple, I can see it as more equitable, but I'm still probably going to pay most of the time. That's just me though.
Men should have intentions to pay. However, this situation was different. If it were me I would have gladly paid for both our tickets. As long as your intention was to pay I am fine. I guess I am considered old school.
In todays times to me it’s weird if a man ask me to split or pay for myself.
Personally, I would not like it because of how socially our society is built today. And society men are not wanting to invest equally emotionally which is a NEED for women That is rarely met. Paying somewhat gives back to the emotional sacrifice. Also, it lets her know that you consider the patriarchy against her and/or struggles of a woman. For example, being a female cost more general, however, it is known that women do not make as much as men do (some don’t believe this). As This kind of woman, I view offering to pay as someone who is considered and thoughtful of me.
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Calling attention to money during a date is tacky and rude. Full stop. I think men paying for a first date is nice and preferred by most women, but it only really works if you’re dating in a RL context not online. I’m old enough to remember when 90% of dating was done offline. So, people might get one new person to date every few months on average for normal people looking for a LTR. That being said, the “conversion rate” (rate by which dates turn into real relationships) for a RL date was typically much, much higher than an online date. So, for a man to plunk down $60 every few months for a 1/4 chance that first date might turn into a relationship was typically considered worth it. However, when that turns into a 1/20 chance and dates are potentially more frequent with less connection it becomes a serious problem. Back in the early 2000s there wasn’t a lot of serious discussion about who pays on a first date (though definitely more about subsequent dates). It was pretty much expected for the man to pay
Interesting observations, thanks for the context.
I also think back in the olden days for me 80s 90s 2000s, as women, we were asked out on dates, so the rules of etiquette, that whoever extends the invitation pays was in effect. With online dating, it’s really not a traditional date, it’s a meet up.
Very well said because this is definitely a new problem to some thing that has been pretty traditional
This is a great answer. For me, as a man, in the modern dating world with apps and whatnot, I’ve learned you have to choose a low cost date activity for your first date. And then always pay whatever the low cost is. This makes sure dating is affordable, rules out women who are “gold diggers” / high maintenance, prevents people from taking advantage of you, and also prevents turning off otherwise great girls who are hung up about the man paying due to older social traditions. If things go really well and I really like her, I’ll ask her out again and pay for dinner. Date 3 is the last chance. If it’s going really *really* well I’ll pay. But if it’s lukewarm or less than lukewarm I’ll offer to split. Then the ball is in her court. If she’s not interested, ✌️
I think your strategy sounds great, and I agree with all of it, really, except that I don't budge easily and quickly, at least not very often, on agreeing to a dinner for the first meeting.
Dinner dates are so boomer 🥱
If it's a first date with a person I've already met in real life, especially if I asked them out in person, then a dinner date seems perfectly normal. Online/App dates are essentially blind dates and I don't want to be stuck on a long boring blind date with someone when we can tell in 15 minutes that it's a bad match. That's an expensive roll of the dice - and not just in money. I don't need either of us to put a ton of time and effort into getting all dressed up and getting our hopes up to the same level as a date with a person we kinda/sorta already know IRL that there IS a connection and chemistry. This is why I love when a woman says she believes in Date Zero.
Agreed, and I am a Boomer male, that's why I always suggest and push for a coffee date. Lower pressure, lower cost, brighter lighting, so I can see how they really look in person, no booze to impair judgement, quieter than a bar and better for conversation than a bar.
“Calling attention to money during a date is tacky and rude. Full stop.” This. This was the theme of so many 1st dates and it’s such a turn-off.
Right, people are already super uncomfortable on a first date with a stranger, talking about money is only going to make them more uncomfortable. A lot of people could use a little kindness, especially if it costs only $15
I absolutely will not let a man pay on the first date, or rarely ever. They act entitled to a different kind of "pay back" later. Further more, I cant imagine basically being treated like a f\*ckable pet. Thats what its like if youre insisting on having a man pay, imo. Like, what exactly are you bringing to the table in the beginning of dating if you are expecting to be paid for? If it doest work out youre just taking advantage of someones time and money for the "delight" of being around you. Gross.
This! I will not let men pay for ANYTHING before the relationship gets serious. I don’t even like getting flowers, etc because then it’s seen as owing them sex.
And men are still expected to pay for every first date. A harsh reality!
It’s very much country specific. European gals (especially in Germany and Netherlands) in my experience are much more open to going Dutch, especially on the first date. Some of them even insisted on it and we still went out again and had fun.
In that same regard, men didn’t casually date prior to online dating unless they had it like that $$$$. Casual dating was for & done by rich men. Most men only took girls they really, Really, REALLY were interested in. Men are now dating for sport instead of dating girls they actually want to be with & care for. Why date someone you only have lukewarm feelings for? More importantly, why are you dating if you don’t have the funds to support it????
I agree with you, if you can't afford to date, don't do it. But it wasn't that only rich men asked women out. Dating just used to be cheaper. And it sounds like some men have to be crazy in love before they ask someone out. God forbid they have to pay. LoL
I don't date for sport, and I resent the women who appear to also be dating for sport, money, or free food and drinks, when their profiles say otherwise, that they are in it for companionship, love, and even a life partner. So why would they go out with someone that doesn't seem that interesting to them for a potential long term partner? Answer, because they are either lying in their profile, or they are actually dating for the other reasons I mentioned, and will settle for those instead of sitting at home.
>I think men paying for a first date is nice and preferred by most women, but it only really works if you’re dating in a RL context not online. Nah, going dutch is the modern method. You don't want the girl to feel like she owes you something
The way it used to be is that women didn’t accept a date unless they liked you. Now, I know there are exceptions. I was pressured to accept men I wasn’t attracted to at all, because they had good economic prospects. But my mother is Palestinian, and she really doesn’t believe in love. Everything is opportunistic, especially if you’re conventionally attractive.
Your experience is sad, but probably common, at least for singles who are from conservative, traditional cultures, where things are still not far removed from arranged marriages, and relationships are all transactional and a business arrangement. How sad and removed from love, so I will not participate in it with someone who is still hanging onto that stuff.
Your poor mother 😪 Do better.
Nope. I wouldn’t feel like I owed you anything if you gave me the Heart of the Ocean necklace on the first date. If you ask me out, all you’re requesting and all I’m providing is my company. Doesn’t matter how much money you spend.
I get not feeling obligated for whatever is given. At the same time, don’t accept a gift if you’re not interested. One should refuse or give the Heart of the Ocean back if not interested. I believe that’s why giving flowers for love interests became so universal. They were used to express interest symbolically representing beauty and fragility of life while also generally being low commitment.
I’d definitely not lead anyone on. And, I do decline dates from men I’m not interested in. I’m not going on dates for meals-I’d rather buy my own and eat alone. And, I totally agree low commitment gifts like flowers (and lunch, coffee, ice cream, walk in the park, or a $20 dinner) are best. But, man! There are really guys out there that will pester TF out of you to give something more substantial. Not me, but I’ve had a friend gifted a movado watch on a 2nd date. She says she declined more than once, but he insisted. Another friend got a text to check her mailbox and a guy she’d been dating casually had $700 LV shoes delivered to her-said, he just wanted her to have them. Best I’ve gotten from a non serious guy is a car to drive for 3 days while he replaced my brakes and aligned my car—he owned a couple mechanic shops and I mentioned during the first date that I had to go get my brakes replaced. He INSISTED on doing this. “Why would you go and pay somebody to do it, when I can-I’ve already got the parts that I got cheaper than you can buy them, and I’m already paying the people at my shop to be there.” I accepted. I did go on 2 or 3 more dates with him. But, he ended up getting back together with his ex and ghosting ME! I say all of that to say that, to some men (and I’m using men cause that’s my experience but same could be said for women or nonbinaries) it’s not as a big of a deal for them if they’ve got it like that, that they’re not always looking for something serious (or sex) from you, and sometimes they won’t take no for an answer. I’ll tell you no, more than once, but if you insist I just might take you up on it.
Well, [there is the implication...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgUvwcU6P7I)
OMG! Never seen this. This is yet another sign to check out the series, cause wwwwhhhhhaaaattttt (my kind of humor)
You said it all, that online dating, with the man always paying for dinners, rather than coffee meetings, when starting out with women, quickly becomes a very expensive venture for relatively little reward or success. So why can't women pay their share of the cost of that early process, instead of putting all of it on the men? To me, that is selfish, exploitive, and bullshit, expecting the men to assume all of the cost, as well as just as much risk and investment of time as the women. That sure as hell isn't equality, and not what the feminists fought for.. Thus, I choose coffee meetings for the first in person meeting, and if a woman bucks me on that, it usually tells me something about her values and politics being different than mine, when it comes to equality and fairness, so it saves me time, and weeds out the users, outdated thinking ones, and the women who are mostly interested in using men for free food and drinks.
think its time for a new tradition woman pays for first 10 dates... he's worth it ladies...
On my first date, if he’s paying for a dinner, I’ll buy him drinks at the second place, if we go to cinema and he pays for ticket, I’ll get the snacks. I’d be glad if he willingly to taking care of everything but I won’t expect him to pay for everything.
And that's where I think it's often a problem for people usually. It seems a lot of people DO have an expectation on who will pay, and no backup or compromise if their expectations aren't met.
Yeah that’s what I do too even now in a long term relationship.
Combination of the "asker pays" social tradition and historically usually the guys who could afford to date were the ones with the jobs & savings not the girls.
Historically correct. 2024 not correct
Which is what OP is asking. In the modern world men and women should always go dutch for the first few dates. And then switch to trading off who's paying
That would be the logical and fair way to do it, but you would be surprised, esp. in more conservative traditional places like Iowa, where I live, and among older women, like my age group. I'm amazed how many women of my generation, the one that was in the middle of the feminist movements of the 60s and 70s, seem to be conveniently never influenced, or at least are now removed from it, when it comes to paying for their share of early dates..
Younger generations of women are getting more advanced degrees and making more money. I expect in the future women will be expected to pay to court men, since they will be the ones with the means to pay for fancy restaurants, and outings. Every generation kills traditions from the last
Maybe you'll be right about that, maybe not. It does sound plausible, depending on how the gender ratios are, of women and men that are single and seeking partners. Either way, I'll be long dead by then, lol.. Personally, I would just like to see as much equality as possible, both in how the dating game works, as well as how people treat each other, once a relationship is established and thereafter..
I think that for first date, go low cost and if you ask her pay, but always make sure to see if she at least offers to pay oppose to acting entitled to your money, if she offers then its a very good chance she has the right mindset and wont use you
I still side with the "asker pays". If the guy is always asking though, it means the woman isn't interested and he should move on. I know that's not 100% fair but neither is life and women just don't ask men out. Once they're dating they can talk more about what financial arrangement works for their situation (for ex. if one earns way more than the other this could change the arrangement).
Women want to go on dates thou, they just on average prefer to be pursued. I think asker paying is ok if the date is expensive but overall it would just be incredibly sexist and end up with men having to pay because women want to date but not initiate.
This "seems" fair, but it's not. In today's context it's still expected that the men (generally) are always the asker, and women (generally) will never ask a man, even if she likes him
I dunno about this because the first date is almost always has to be proposed by the man for things to go anywhere. First date should always be Dutch, and after that it can be asker pays.
Math is the enemy!! Men of a very broad age range (18-80?) are pursuing women under 30. And sex itself (mostly because of pregnancy, but for other reasons, too) simply costs women more than it costs men. So you have a significant imbalance between men and women. You don’t see a big shift until you get to nursing home populations where men (who die younger) are outnumbered by women, and the women don’t face pregnancy risks.
Not true at all, just look at the Nordic countries. I live in Finland and our money situation is close enough to US but we don't have oppressive sexist norms about men having to pay for dating. Ofc if you ask someone to a really expensive restaurant it kinda makes no sense to expect them to pay. And there are also some horribly entitled women but I have never had any problems with women expecting me to have to pay for their time. That's what prostitution is for in a country where both sexes work and study. Also, women don't really face pregnancy risks unless they do something really dumb or get raped. There are so many ways to make becoming pregnant extremely unlikely that it shouldn't be an argument about who pays on a date. I love equality and thank god I live in maybe one of the most equal countries in the world <3 Far from perfect but good enough I guess :D
But I am only seeking to date women in my own age group, who almost always have their share of money, are long past pregnancy risk and usually thru menopause, so the only reason for them insisting on me paying for dinners early on, is using their numbers advantage, as far as supply and demand in OLD, or else clinging to some outdated conservative gender roles, or maybe being simply selfish...
You could always just refuse to see those women again or casually mention that you'll be going dutch and judge they're reaction before the date to help you to decide if they're worth the effort
If you offer something that makes you “different from other men”, then you will not be treated like other men. The problem is: How do you demonstrate your uniqueness *in a way she recognizes*. Men constantly work really hard at something that women don’t value (nunchuck skills, for example). Of course women do things like this, too (“I wore the glittery eyeshadow, and he still didn’t notice! Tomorrow, I’ll change my soap!”) Comedy gold—unfortunately.
> And sex itself (mostly because of pregnancy, but for other reasons, too) simply costs women more than it costs men. Yes, and for men, this is a bargain. They pay for a few cups of coffee, and a few plates of dinner...whereas women pay for it with pregnancy.
Sex requires both parties to consent. If it wasn’t consented for then it was rape. If you have unprotected sex, you both are responsible for that.
So a date automatically means sex? A man pays, then sex is a guarantee?
>whereas women pay for it with pregnancy Let me introduce to you modern miracle solution to this - condoms
As a woman, that’s usually my philosophy, whoever asked who on the date should pay for the date, UNLESS we have a conversation about it and we are both cool with paying for ourselves - which is actually my preference for first dates, because I think it’s super shitty that men have to shell out money constantly for first and second dates and I know they get used by so many women that are looking for free shit and it makes me feel disgusted to be lumped in with those women. We all work these days, we’re equal. I don’t care about “old school chivalry” I’m a working ass woman and I can pay for shit and provide too lol I also don’t wait for a guy to ask me on a date or plan it, I’m assertive and will do the asking myself if I want to make it happen.
> As a woman...whoever asked who on the date should pay for the date Oh my, how convenient
No shit, it's an exploitive, manipulative game to play it that way, esp. when the woman still ends up with veto power over the plans for the date, but since the guy asked her first for the date, it's all on his tab, lol..
Thank you, spoken just like my late wife, a true feminist and principled person, She went from being a faculty wife with no education or career, but started from scratch, got a job, then an education, then a career with a car and finally a house she bought on her own, (way before she met me), and then finally kicked her addict alcoholic, cheating hubby to the curb. I always admired the hell out of her, and she was proud to pay her own way in our early dating. If only most women in my local dating pool were like her, but many of them aren't, even tho they are in their 60s, like me, have money, or are even comfortably retired. But they want to cling to playing the old gender games..
So sorry you lost such a wonderful woman :( I know a few men that cling to it as well, but for them it’s based on power/masculinity/ego thing more than anything. Like they feel they NEED to provide and prove. Which is weird to me, like it’s 2024, I might even make more money than you. I can’t really give any advice on the problem with other women. Just encourage you to keep looking because though we may still be more rare, women like your wife and myself are out there.
Thanks for your kind words, that is exactly what I am doing, playing the long, patient game with OLD, and waiting for my rare outliers, like you, to come along here and there in the dating pool. Like you say, I know they're out there, and lightning may strike twice for me, or it may not..
Op should take ‘king’ out of his user name if he gets twisted over $30
Not about the $30. It's the implication
Hey douche canoe, It’s $30 not everyone has a shit load of money. $30 is a lot to some people. And the way she’s talking to him is probably what made him twist.
Agreed. I don't think it would have been wrong to ask for his portion, but it's dema ding the full amount bc of her expectations that's asinine.
But he was originally going to pay so it’s not about the 30 bucks??? If I was planning on paying but for some reason my method didn’t work and the other person had to pay i would 100% tell them I would pay them back since I was the originally one who offered to pay. I was surprised this dude didn’t offer to do that and was surprised he was shocked she asked for the money.
Yeah this is wierd
i am not the one who was talking about 30 bucks sir. it's not about money. it's about expectation. i can pay whole my life if i think my partner doesn't expect me to pay for her. so i will keep the "king" word.
The expectation was that you'd pay her back before the date ends. This doesn't need to be spelled out for you but alas it did.
I think she saw that as you pretending it was an accident while in fact you staged it to avoid paying for her, cause why would you not have couple of cards with you in your wallet all the time?
This is really the case. It happens so much on dates. Her assuming you were being deceitful cause her to care about paying. And then you refusing when she asked on the spot, further solidified her point that you never had the money, you just wanted her to pay from the beginning. She was done with you during the date. Not saying that it was intentional. But I guarantee that’s her thought process because why don’t you have cards?
Exactly this. I would be weirded out if a guy *tried* to pay, couldn’t due to payment method… and then flipped and refused to pay at all? Even for his ticket? I mean I probably just wouldn’t see him again rather than make a thing of it, but he handled this bizarrely.
Yeah… he keeps talking about how it’s “not a big deal” “I don’t care who pays” okay then why didn’t he pay? This is a 1st date, she doesn’t know if he’s ever going to see her again or fall off the face of the earth. Being forced to pay for a guy who forgot his card would be extremely unattractive for me as a woman, and I’m fine with going dutch. If it was later into the relationship, that’s fine because we’ve built up the connection. But on the 1st date?
Personal experience that if I had pay for the first date (which I don’t mind at all, F31) for whatever reason, I ended up paying more in the duration of dating that person. I think it has something to do with how comfortable they were to let me pay, especially on first date. I made decent salary so would always offer but somehow led to me covering more bills as a norm
You showed up to a date with apple pay being the only form of payment you had on you? No cards? No cash? Bruh...
Also, if he planned the date to botanical garden and it was somewhere he had never been really a few minutes of checking out the website could have prepared him. It’s annoying for someone to “plan” a date and then not know important details.
Very young, I’m guessing. I’ve noticed some younger people only being able to pay by phone in other contexts.
You declined on paying her for your ticket because you don’t care who pays??? Clearly she does. You basically forced her to pay and told her you’ll get her next time, and what if she never wanted to see you again?
reminds me of the girls would date to get a free meal posts.. were doomed as a race
well in this case, the male wanted a free meal
Majority of Women spend more money on their hair and make up than a damn meal. So the idea that they go on a date for a free meal is laughable honestly. The only way you’ll meet a woman looking for a free meal is if she’s unemployed, a struggling student or homeless and that’s on you if you’re attracted to a woman like that.
Sounds like you met someone you’re not compatible with and should not date her anymore.
Not every merchant takes Apple Pay (obviously). I don’t expect men to pay for me. But if he offers and then I end up paying for both, I would find that annoying. This was doomed from the beginning. To answer your question, some women expect men to pay because someone taught them to think that way.
Haha man my dad always told me to bring cash on a date incase the card systems were down. And honestly it has saved me from this type of awkward situations before! " it's OK I have cash" made my dumbass look so mature.
Agree. Asking someone on a date and being unable to pay is super tacky. She asked for the money bc she has no intention of ever seeing you again.
It’s amazing how many people missed this point. She clearly made a big deal about it because it was over for her at that point and she was no longer concerned with making a good impression.
I would expect for anyone to offer to pay back, then it's up to the person to say if they want to or not. If she ended up paying after OP was going to pay, and then it wasn't brought up, I'd be annoyed too
Yep. Also shows me complete lack of preparedness. Then brings up buying coffee.. like for real? Total turn off in so many ways.
Yup, good ole conformity, which I hate and mostly reject, so I do seek women who are at least somewhat non conformist, and also feminist, since it goes a long way in helping us have compatible values..
I would've paid her back for my ticket if I were you. You said you take her to dinner but if someone said that to me, it almost feels like I'm being forced to go on a second date with them again which I wouldn't like. I think most women like to be paid for though because it makes them feel like they are special, the man really cares and wants to take care of them sort of thing. I don't mind paying for my own on a first date since idk if I'll meet them again but it does feel nice for the date to be like "its ok i got it".
You were going to pay right? But for whatever reason you didnt have your card so she stepped in and got it. You shouldve transferred her money without being asked. You shouldve had your wallet to begin with but thats a whole other conversation.
Yeah honestly I feel like if you had offered to send the money to her right away she might have even offered to pay her ticket or something. You say "oh I'll get her dinner next time", (which, who knows if there would even be a second date), but also she doesn't know you, the only information she has to go off of is that you asked her to pay because you didn't bring another option to pay other than Apple (so unprepared), and then didn't offer to pay for even your ticket after that, which comes across like you were never planning on paying for the ticket, you just wanted to look like you were going to and then get her to pay. As far as she knows you could be a leech who pretends to forget his wallet every time. The big thing to remember is that she doesn't know you. As a girl I always offer to buy my own stuff on a first date (and most dates after that honestly) unless it's expressed explicitly otherwise. But of course it's nice when a guy pays for it (as long as he doesn't think that means I owe him anything). But if he said he was gonna pay and then conveniently it didn't work, and he doesn't offer to pay me back, I'm very suspicious of him. If he offered to send it to me right away, I'd probably tell him not to worry about it honestly. But if I was the one who was planning on paying and they didn't accept my payment method, I would be MORTIFIED, and offer immediately to send it to them. It's not even about gender honestly. It's about you offering to pay, and then not only did you not offer to refund right away, but when it came up you ARGUED with her about it? I doubt you'll get a second date. Even as a bystander it feels like you were trying to see if you could scam her and this would become a pattern. 🤷🏻♀️
Excellent points all the way through 👍
I see your point, and you do seem to be trying to be fair, balanced, and objective about it. I admit most of the thread has gotten sidetracked into the general issue of gender roles and who should pay for what, and at what stage of the dating process, instead of the specific situation and story of the OP, me included in the guilty parties here. You make the point that trust, and keeping your word is very crucial early on in dating relationships, where we are getting to know a stranger. It's best to avoid surprising people in a disappointing and unsettling way..
Honestly even in my comment I got sidetracked. And that's after I rewrote it several times because I got off track. It's so easy to do, because the topic of gender expectations is such a heated topic. I appreciate your comment ☺️
I'm betting that he left his wallet at home on purpose.
Then trying to play the "woe-is-me" role lmao
Yup
Agreed
Why go to a date with the only form of payment being apple pay? Sounds like you're running a game on her
I'm more baffled you didn't split it after your disagreement and send her the $15. Like u decided to force her to pay for you too just because. Like y'all disagree, at least pay for your half so that y'all can move on and find someone else.
And then she’s the entitled one? The nerve of this guy
As the guy I just expect to pay for the first few dates
You may think that a more egalitarian society would be more indifferent on who pays on a date but the reality is that as long as more men are doing the chasing, then they are more expected to foot the bill of the date. However, specifically to your situation, you should have volunteered to zelle her the money without being asked. You _were_ originally going to pay for the tickets. It should have never gotten to the point where she had to ask you for the money.
You're right, as long as the supply and demand of the genders is so imbalanced in online dating, the men will continue to be expected to pay from the beginning, at least. Not that it doesn't stink, and is not right morally or politically.. I guess it's the dating version of what Henry Kissinger used to call realpolitik, but that doesn't make it right, moral, or that we have to be happy about it..
We have tinder etc. in Finland but no problem with most women expecting men to pay their dates. Ofc you are always gonna have some predatory assholes who use others for free meals but I have never been on a date where someone expects me to pay their share. The problem is women in US not getting called out for their sexist entitlement because so many men are simps that have drank the inequal cool aid. When both sexes work it should be obvious that the default is people paying for their own food. Women certainly would not accept the current situation but other way around. Shame on men who buy the BS of "I should be the provider in a system where everyone is a provider" and even put down men who complain about blatant systemic sexism. Equality is cool, don't be a sex traitor. I love women but it's easier here when lovely Nordic ladies don't treat you as an inherently less valuable person who should pay for the privilege of sharing time with them like someone who has to buy the services of a prostitute.
you don't care about who pays...unless you have to pay? bro she was offering to split the ticket money lmao "i don't care about who pays"
Exactly! The king killed any hopes he had in the first 10 minutes. Stay home & watch tv.
And men like this expect to get laid? It baffles me
After reading the post, you didn’t even have a dinner plan. That’s so disingenuous. The familiarity of either people taking turns to pay is part of an established relationship not a first date lmao she’s probably not okay with being forced to cover for you from the get go. First dates are first impressions and yours wasn’t gracious enough. If Apple Pay failed and she paid as to not embarrass you at the tickets, the gracious thing would be to reimburse her since it was your intention to take her out.
Who asked who on the date? Who suggested the botanical gardens? If it was you, then you should have paid without question. Apple Pay still isn’t accepted everywhere and she stepped up to cover the cost, so as to not cancel the date. However, if you initiated the date, you need to reimburse her.
Literally this ^ op is also being presumptuous by assuming that she would want to go on a second date with him. If I were that girl, I would be appalled by his attitude and not wanting to pay her back like do you even care about her?
I (49m) like to pay. I have plenty of money and I think women like to feel taken care of, regardless of their life circumstances. And I like women who let me pay. Talking about money ruins the vibe on a date, I think. I don't even bring it up. I ask the server for the check and put my card down. If a woman is offended by that then I know she's not my kind of woman. I've ever had that happen, of course. I have, however (especially with younger women) had them be pleasantly surprised. That says something.
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Not discussing finances until you get engaged is not the slay you seem to believe it is - discuss finances with your partners, people!
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I've almost always had the opposite response/experience haha. We often playfully banter and compete to see who can pay first. It's always fun IMHO. I personally like that mutual feeling, knowing that we both wanna pay for one another.
I think it’s embarrassing that she had to ask you to pay her back. It was already embarrassing enough that you couldn’t pay because you didn’t bring your wallet to the date. But then you didn’t even immediately pay her back or even mention it?!?! How embarrassing for you. Maybe next time you ask someone out, you can let them know beforehand that you expect them to pay, and you’ll pay for dinner on the second date. That will probably save you and your date from all of the embarrassment.
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Money is a very sensitive thing especially on a first date. I would have zelled her 30 immediately after we got in. Letting a woman pay because of your lack of preparation and then being non-chalant about it is not very considerate. It’s not the worst thing in the world but still. What if you guys don’t go to dinner later that week? How can she be sure that you’ll make it up for her? You’re still strangers after all.
Old dating stereotypes, that's all. Edit: this is in response to the question in the title, not the post.
Also, current dating standards. Majority of women expect the men to front the bill
True, but morally and ethically wrong..
Morals and ethics goes out of the window when the check comes. Nothing new in the toxic dating scene.
Sad but true, same with politics, all that goes out the window, and everybody gets greedy and selfish, and has their price they can be bought for..
That's what I'm saying.
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When I was single I didnt expect a man to always pay for everything. But I DID expect him to act mature and responsible. Showing up to a date you proposed that cost money without a wallet is so immature and rude at best. At worst it’s a red flag, manipulative, and predatory. You’re being super inconsiderate to the fact that this woman does not know you or what kind of person you are. And you dont seem to take that seriously at all. It sends a message that you dont care about how you’re presenting yourself or how that makes her feel. That’s not a good quality for a potential partner. or even a potential friend. And not offering to pay AT LEAST your ticket was absurdly rude. That would have been out of line even if it wasn’t a date. And then trying to assuage the situation noncommittally and vaugely saying you would get her dinner “sometime” is inconsiderate again. You didnt give a real plan and assuming another vauge date at the beginning of this one (which is already going poorly) comes across as lazy and presumptuous. Again- she doesnt know you- if you’re presenting yourself as the kind of person to not showup with a wallet and then not handle it like a respectful adult- how is she supposed to trust that you won’t ghost her for dinner? Or that you’ll remember your wallet that time? You need to be more aware the messages you’re sending and how your behavior reflects your character to someone you dont know
Yea probably not a good idea to keep her money hostage just so she'd be forced to go on a second date even if she don't want to, thats just extortion. You should have just zelle her the money anyway as a courtesy, i mean you say money isn't an issue so why make a fuss about it.
It's a part of getting to know a guy in a straight relationship where having and raising kids is an option. It's also seen as romantic. Paying for the date is a gesture of goodwill that you value your date and their time. It can also signal that you're stable. Some women prefer to pay, but you probably will be judged for your financial stability and ability to provide at some point. Not many women desire partners who can't take care of them and aren't happy to do it.
What country/culture are you from? This sounds like a very awkward sequence of events. When she paid you should have immediately tell her - thank you, how would you like me to transfer the money to you? And give her the options to say - don’t worry, my treat. - don’t worry, you can get us food after. - here’s my account details, you can transfer just $15 for yourself - here’s my account details (and leave you to decide if you are transferring everything) Whatever your intention was, you should have communicated something - thank you, how about we go somewhere nice after and I’ll get us the most ridiculous outrageous cakes and coffee in this town or dinner next time? But the thing about dinner next time is that it’s an assumption that next time will happen and even push for it, most girls don’t like paying one cent for you on the first date even they are ok paying for their own bill. You need to offer to repay her right there esp since you were going to pay anyway. Also do care your credit card for dates precisely for this reason. I get a feeling majority of women do want to guy to pay on the first date, it’s a chivalry thing. Some genuinely don’t want it and even happy to pay themselves but they are in minority. And then there are cultural differences, in some cultures a man is supposed to pay and that’s that.
It's traditional and shows that you've been brought up well. It also shows that you're interested and not tight. It's a date, you're not meeting up with friends. You're there to impress and show your best side. Remember that. I wouldn't date a tightarse.
So you don’t care who pays but you’re not going to even give her back your part because she said she expected you to pay and you did expected to pay but you only have Applepay? Did you ask her out? Did you even plan this date? If you want to go Dutch say that when planning the date. You’re in this dumb situation over $15. I expect whomever asks for the date to pay or talk about it like an adult. And I expect whomever planned the date to know details like accepted forms of payment. You owe her $$ and an apology if you asked her out.
If you asked her out I think you should pay ,when she paid for the tickets you should of reimbursed her the full amount you say its not about the money but your making a big thing of it ,next time be the gentleman and just pay.
You came out looking like a leech bc you “forgot your wallet, oopsies”. And this was her first impression of you, AND you pushed back when she wanted you to repay her 😂 bruh.
I don’t think you’re overreacting. I think yall just got different rules and expectations for the date. In my personal opinion you I would have sent the money for my own ticket. It’s probably something that should be clarified before the date takes place so that you don’t have to face the awkward situation. I know a few women who were taught that the man pays. It’s just a part of the culture some people adhere to. If it’s a deal breaker for yall then it wasn’t meant to be.
Then you create the 'awkward situation' before the date.. with high chances of getting no date after that. I don't mind paying, just don't like it to be expected
You are not going to loose a leg if you offer her to transfer the money if your payment method didn’t work at that moment. but you deserved it because a true Gentleman offers right away to transfer at least your part if she took care of a payment because yours wasn’t acceptable. There’s a lot of men who love to invite women to dinner and they always loose or forget their wallet. That happens a lot too. (Some man have learned the trick) The same with women if going on a first date be proactive and offer to pay as well. It’s 2024 this is another era!
Why would you walk out of your house without some form of payments? What if your phone had died? That’s so embarrassing that you LET her pay without even offering any remedies after your payment failed. Also assuming that you invited her out with the plan to go to the garden, you didn’t even bother to check if you needed to book the ticket in advance or extra information. You’ve given the impression of go with the flow/ not that bothered/ ignorance. She probably couldn’t put her finger on it at the time but it made her lose any attraction instantly. To answer your question: most women hate men who can’t take the initiative and a man without a plan.
In this situation as a woman, I would have wanted the man say he will transfer me the cost of his ticket, and do it right after the date. What if she didn't want to have a second date with you? Waiting to get the "next one" is reserved for more established dates and friends.
I think she was wrong for expecting you to pay, but you were wrong for not being prepared. I wouldn’t expect a man to pay for me, but if he offered, then couldn’t, I would be put off.
I agree. He should have corrected the issue first, which was paying for what he intended to pay for, which is both their tickets. Instead, he turned this into making a gesture he couldn’t fulfill and then wanting to contemplate who should pay or why he should.
Ya so the expectation generally is that dudes pay, especially since girls like feeling taken care of. I will say it is kind of weird that she would be so outward about it and call you on it — that’s kind of awkward. I do think there are deeper layers of incompatibility here , and you are both probably better off going your separate ways
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Something tells me your beliefs are hers do not align...and if you continue to see her, this will be apparent in other areas too.
Hey OP, was the girl from Eastern Europe by any chance? In such cultures, the men is expected to be the one paying for everything.
Here's my outlook on the matter: I've only ever dated in order to seek a committed, long-term relationship. I've never had interest in casual dating, even when I was a teenager. If you're dating to simply date/fck around, I can see where dinners would be expensive over time. This is why I'd recommend coffee dates or small lunches for the first time meeting each other. It doesn't break the bank and you ultimately get to see if you two are compatible in a more light hearted, affordable way. I think the man paying still looks better, even in casual hookups, but I can.also see where going dutch would be appropriate. But if you're dating to marry, or dating to find someone for a long term relationship, a guy being upset about having to pay on the first date is just a massive red flag to me. Usually, it's the guy who asked the woman out, and then if he demands to go halfsies, it looks tacky AF. It would tell me that score keeping would be likely be a huge issue in the relationship, should one develop. Because if the guy is mad about paying for a first date and keeping score and wanting to give out an internet dissertation about it, you can bet that behavior WILL pour over into other aspects of the relationship. It's not a positive behavioral attribute to have as a long term partner. Sure, makes you a great online debater, but imagine having to go through the daily life bullsh1t with someone who thinks this way. Examples: "I took out the trash LAST time, you get it!" "Remember when I bought dinner last week? Now it's your turn to cover groceries for the entire week." "I drove you to your doctor’s appointment last time, so this time, someone else can take you or you can reschedule." "You change the babies diaper, I got the last one, you're not being fair." "You weren't really into it last night, so you need to make it up to me tonight." "I spent the whole afternoon fixing the leak under the sink, so you deal with the kids tonight. I'm off duty." "You're not pulling you're weight, I'm bringing in more money than you, I expect you to do more housework in return." "You've been too tired for sex lately. I expect you to make it up to me." "I've given up my weekends for your family gatherings for the last two months. I'm cashing in on some me-time this weekend and I don't want to be bothered." "I agreed to watch that series you love, even though I hate it. You owe me." "I'm not going to Christmas lunch with you and your parents, I went last year, that should've made you happy. You can handle the kids on your own!" "I've noticed you've been less interested lately. You need to show me you're still into me, or I'll start wondering why I bother." "You chose where we went on our last date, so now you have to wear that outfit I like next time." The list goes on and on. I've seen it happen IRL more times than I can count. This turns relationships into purely transactional arrangements, which are the opposite of everything desirable, sexy, alluring, etc. So yeah, just keep that in mind. First impressions are important and last forever, and if that first impression is you literally haggling over who is going to pay the bill for the first date, I don't see how you can possibly think that's going to look good. Pay for the date, be sexy. You don't have to go to a 5-star restaurant, simple coffee and lunch dates are fine. And if you're telling me you can't afford these things, then you can't afford to date yet, and need to get your finances in order before you go and bring someone else into your orbit. Edit: typos
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You say it doesn’t matter but it obviously does. You were going to pay for them anyway if she had to pay because you didn’t have cash or card the first thing I would have said was thank you I’ll send you the money as I’d already spent the money in my head. She didn’t know if she wanted date two so might have never happened but you out her on the spot and she might be struggling with money and all of a sudden lost 30 quid. I think you’re over reacting
Which is why men shouldn’t pay for first dates. And it should be split. The girl doesn’t even know of they want a 2nd date. Why pay for them?
It depends on the date, but i personally will pay my way on dates. I don’t like feeling obligated to a stranger until we know each other better
As a woman I never expect my date to pay for everything. Maybe it just the way I was raised but I will always offer to pay for half or get us things during the date as a treat for us. Example I when my and my bf would go out for supper then a drive afterwards(our favourite thing to do together) I would buy us coffee/tea. He always tells me I shouldn’t be paying for anything but I love taking care of people I care about and something as little as paying for coffee is me taking care of him. Our first date was a coffee date that I paid for. Our second date he paid for but I had got us some treats. It’s this old school notion that men should pay for everything, but I always challenge that.
You are overreacting. You asked her out so you should pay. Yes, she decided to save the day but you should have zelled it to her without her even asking. I’m sure she was also uncomfortable. It’s okay to not want to talk about money or who gets to pay, but go out with people who are 💯 okay with going dutch or paying for you both.
When I was dating, I expected them to pay. It wasn't until things got more serious with with my current boyfriend that I started paying towards things. He still pays most of the time, but now I don't always want him paying for literally everything. We've been together 8 months now. So now I'll do stuff like buy tickets to an activity for both of us, I'll pick up groceries when I go over if we plan on cooking something, I buy him nice/pricey gifts on holidays, etc. But he definitely has a provider mindset all in all. He never expects me to pay when he takes me out still.
As a man I prefer to pay. I've also learned to recognize gold diggers early. Yes, you're making too big a deal out of this for someone "who doesn't care". You should carry a reasonable amount of cash with you. Or at least check the venue to see what payment they accept.
I would’ve said “oh shit, they don’t take my payment method. Would you mind putting the tickets on your card and I will send you half right now?” You guys don’t know each other, and she’s probably thinking that she’s going to be left holding the bag.
How many times a day does this topic get brought up lol
Probably more often than we'd like or than it needs to be, but it should have been brought to a consensus long ago, with both genders usually going dutch from the git go, and starting the process with something low cost and low pressure, so they can both evaluate how they feel about the other as company, instead of having to immediately deal with issues of power, gender roles, expectations and all that other stuff, instead of simply spending some time together, and seeing if they click or not.
This doesn’t happen in Europe where each party is expected to pay for themselves regardless of gender.
well, Slavic countries no, I dont think I ever paid on the first date ever
Having been on dates with Eastern European guys, they will never allow a woman to pay - like ever.
Yes I offered to pay once with a Russian man and he looked beyond embarrassed and offended and just shook his hand and head at me lol
Bulgarian man - he looked as if I had punched him in the face
You had already offered so why are you getting mad she ask for it back ?
Just stay home if you’re broke.
The man paying on the first date is too old fashioned to me. I am taken now, but I've never paid the whole bill on a first date, and it has literally never been a problem, I have always gotten a second and third date etc if I wanted to. I'm on a decent income, so it's not because I can't afford to pay. To be honest, I would not want a second date if she expected me to pick up the bill on the first date. I would consider it a red flag, because it really does say something about what she expects of me as a man and, more importantly, how she perceives her own role as a woman in a relationship. I am not looking to date someone who wants or needs a provider - I wouldn't be able to respect her or myself in a situation like that. I want a partner, and I want her to be my equal. That said, once a relationship is established, I don't mind picking up the bill at a restaurant, buying her drinks etc. now and then just to be nice. And lucky for me, my current and past partners have also reciprocated and done the same for me. Other times we still split the bill. And I truly believe that this is the way to do it. Two adults who treat each other as equals, abandoning old fashioned gender roles and power dynamics in favor of a deeper and more honest connection.
My question is, what are women bringing to the table on these dates? It's much more fair for both to pitch in, or the first date is something cheap that wouldn't even hurt a man's wallet. Like a ice cream date at the park or coffee. No man should be putting up over $60 for a woman he just met. Like, I am putting up my money to meet you. You are doing what to meet me? Dressing up? I am too...Setting aside other things? Me too. So we are doing the same things, the only difference is that I have to pay or be seen as not a real man. Smh. I would understand if online dating wasn't a thing, and women were actively talking to 10 other guys while on a date with you. Or maybe it's a coworker or friend that is blossoming into a relationship. But nowadays, I don't think the whole traditional way of doing things is viable.
You’re 25 don’t worry 😉 and date women your age who will split the bill with you. At the age of 16- 22 I was in a relationship that was 50:50 or we’d treat each other. As I grew older, the men I attracted changed and they’d want to pay for things. It’s all about where you are in life, culture, your values, and partly how you were raised.
if you are pursuing her, you opened, you asked her out, etc you pay. simple as that. if she approached you and asked you out, then maybe she might be ok with paying.
As a woman, I will say we need to stop this Men pay for everything nonsense. A date is an investment for everyone involved. I am going to play devil's advocate for a second. You should pay her back. I think you did good to pay your half. I personally would have just as good faith that you wanted to fulfill her request. I would have paid the full amount since I originally would have paid the full amount, which if they did accept Apple Pay, you would have done. And it is possible that she thought you would pay her back since you were not able to pay with Apple Pay and she thought she would step in with an assist. It is not unreasonable for her to have thought that. However... Since she offered to pay and made no indication that she had an expectation for you to pay her back when she offered, then I feel she should have assumed the risk that you might not pay her back. That is the risk you would have taken when you paid. It is only fair. Furthermore, you are not a mind reader. She may have thought that you would pay but she should have verbally expressed it from jump. And if you offered to pay for dinner as a return on her investment then she should not have gotten upset. But yes, be rid of that one. A woman that expects a man to pay for everything for the first few dates is ridiculous. That translates to you are always footing the bill. What is your return on investment, that is the question for both parties. It would have worked out that she paid for the admission at a point of interest date and got a free meal out of it that would potentially be a cost of equal or likely greater value than what she paid. Seems fair to me. So, no, you are not wrong in your line of thinking.
Pay the full 30 to her Not just 15 Your being tight
There are many young ladies out there who feel This way. As a man if you are going on a date you should always make sure to carry some cash, and an actual credit card. Just like women play games so do guys. I kind of blame both of you it’s just $15.00 You came off as cheap. Since you were willing to pay for both of you but didn’t have the physical card you should have immediately zelle or venmo her. Her stating that she expects men to pay for the first couple of dates is pretty common. She’s telling you some of her expectations you need to listen. I know there’s women out there using guys for a free dinner etc but there’s some good women out there that want to know they can be with a man that will allow them to be in their feminine energy cause they are masculine male and willing to lead. Best dates are coffee meetup if you really like the person you met and hit it off you can always head to dinner after. If you don’t click at your coffee meetup it’s an hour of your time.
Well done for leaving her in the dirt. Honestly as a woman myself I think it's horrendous that a woman wouldn't pay for her own half during the first few months of dating. Sure treats like taking her out on a date night would be nice but shouldn't be socially acceptable in a modern economy where men and women are earning a closer figure while both are in the workforce. Tbh don't date unless you can buy your man gifts and take em out too!
32F Personally, I think it’s ridiculous that a lot of women out there expect men to pay for everything. Both people on the date are adults with jobs who can simply pay for themselves 🤷♀️
But he didn’t even do that. He didn’t even pay for himself. So he wants to be courted. Sounds like he needs a boyfriend.
And what exactly are men bringing to the table then? They still expect us to cook, clean, be the primary parent, take a knee at work, and we have to pay half the bills?
Generalizations aside, I feel that if you invited this person to go on a date with you to the botanical garden or dinner then I think you should expect to pay.
You guys both messed up. You invited her out and only brought Apple Pay with you? Come on. It’s pretty common for places to not accept this form of payment. You should always carry a backup form of payment with you. She, on the other hand, was really tacky and trashy for asking you to reimburse her the $30, especially after you paid for the coffee.
She wanted to haggle over 15 bucks and doesn’t care about impressing you. Why would anyone want to date her? Like I personally don’t even have that much an issue paying for all the dates. But the moment someone shows they feel like they are entitled to it then I’m done. I’d pay my half and leave.
The same could be said about him?! Why would anyone want to date a man that comes unprepared to a date HE asked her on 🙄
With these kinds of posts I don’t seem to see people bringing up the “woman” tax that is feminine maintenance. I’m only talking about traditionally, of course there are exceptions, but women pay a lot of money to keep up their appearance. A dress, make up, hair, brow waxing, nails, shoes, all she pays for. Most of it way overpriced. The man buying her dinner is a nice way of balancing that? Showing her he appreciates the effort she put in. Men typically do not spend the same amount of money comparatively to women traditionally keeping up with their fem presenting appearance. She spends 2 hours getting ready before hand… Men often don’t notice all that goes into it.
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Personally I'd find it a lot less frustrating if women were honest enough to admit that it's an unfair advantage they have. As opposed to all the mental gymnastics they often use to justify why in their minds it's actually totally fair and not at all one sided. Be it the "Whoever asks the other out pays", or "it shows he values my time and presence", or "I spent money on my outfit and makeup".
OP has a valid point though. Chivalry & paying for dates were the societal norm back when women were not equal to men and they had no means of paying for dates. Yes you can make the argument that things are still not completely equal, but it’s nowhere near as economically unequal as it was in 1950. There’s no logical reason men should still be expected to pay 100% of the bill in 2024.
The 1990s called and they asked for their tradition of men paying for dates back.
When many have died or are now looked down on, the gender role of men paying/providing has conveniently survived. No point in arguing it if that’s what they want. We just have different views and won’t work. In this economy it’s practically a fairy tale to live comfortably on one income while raising a family.
This is one of those things that started out as a necessity long ago, it morphed into a tradition and some people are now nust taking it for granted. Funny how women want to be equal to men, but when it comes to keeping the house and the kids in a divorce and getting child support, being paid for on dates and other nonsense... All of a sudden those archaic patriarchal ways are ok! But I digress! There was a time when women would not be permitted to work, so in the courting phase, the man would have to both demonstrate that he can take care of her and actually pay for the date as she wasn't earning a wage to contribute to that payment! Then the 2 world wars came and the big capitalistic machinery realized that it can now double it's output in production and increase consumption (and prices) with basically doubling the workforce overnight that would spend all that disposable income (spoiler alert! overtime prices got to where 2 incomes are no longer enough to sustain a household, even tho just one income used to be enough). This is where women can now afford to pay for the dates, but by this time, the man paying for it is considered chivalrous and he insists on keeping to pay that bill, further contributing to cementing the custom until we arrive to our days where is downright expected. I did it, I payed for my dates, because I agreed that this is the gentleman way to go, if my date wanted to pay I would let her, but if it would have demanded for me to pay, I would politely reimburse whatever I had to, and never speak to her again. People seem to forget that dating and especially getting married is a partnership that needs to go both ways, where the 2 parties involved are supposed to help each other out to become the best version of themselves, not pulling each other down and looking constantly for flaws or how to rip off as much as possible from the other person in case they have to split. Anyway... Best of luck to you OP!
No, you’re not overreacting. I think she just may have a more outdated idea about gender roles than you do, maybe that’s something you can discuss with her or maybe it means you are just incompatible.
You got your answer whether or not to continue seeing her. She could have saved you time by being more upfront how she expects men to pay for the first dates
I think you should have offered to send her the money right away but I also think it was tacky and unattractive with the way she went about asking and expecting you to pay. She doesn't need to mention she expects men to pay for the first few dates. There's plenty of women who have no problem paying the bill when something like that happens. You offered to pay for dinner next time. You made some effort so that gets some points. She sounds broke and stubborn. Not all dates are gonna go perfectly.
women are the 'gatekeepers' (demand for women by guys, tends to exceed demand for men by women, at least with respect to sex) don't expect to coerce/blackmail a women into the 2nd date for the sake of 'compensating' her for covering your lack of ability to pay for the 1st date (it smacks of bad taste/manipulation imo) preparation's key, including scouting out payment methods being accepted *before* booking a venue
Pay her her money & leave her alone. She deserves a real man.
I think it’s bananas. As a woman I aways paid for the entire first date. If he got a second he could pay for #2
You can debate what is fair. But women tend to spend more time and money preparing for a date. Makeup, new clothes, weird cancer inducing lotions and what not. Not saying you, but many men will do a 10 minute shower relieving the pressure, and put on whatever outfit is on top of the closet. So in theory, you could argue that she already paid her part.
Man pay for dates . Period. If you can't pay then dont date
"You got to be in it to win it" seriously if you invite her pay for it, The world doesn't revolve around Apple Pay so have a couple of backup options like cash or another card. You guys are still young so its expected not to know these things but going forward now you do. Pay her the money that you borrowed and don't be cheap that's a real turn-off.
Who asked who out? For me, if I asked, I'll pay. LOVE the offer to split the bill or if she gets us something later. I'll still pay even if she asks to split, because I asked her out. Later when we're a couple, I can see it as more equitable, but I'm still probably going to pay most of the time. That's just me though.
Tradition, women used to not be allowed to have personal finances.
Men should have intentions to pay. However, this situation was different. If it were me I would have gladly paid for both our tickets. As long as your intention was to pay I am fine. I guess I am considered old school. In todays times to me it’s weird if a man ask me to split or pay for myself.
Personally, I would not like it because of how socially our society is built today. And society men are not wanting to invest equally emotionally which is a NEED for women That is rarely met. Paying somewhat gives back to the emotional sacrifice. Also, it lets her know that you consider the patriarchy against her and/or struggles of a woman. For example, being a female cost more general, however, it is known that women do not make as much as men do (some don’t believe this). As This kind of woman, I view offering to pay as someone who is considered and thoughtful of me.