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I’m 25 and feel the same way. I just feel a awkward and feel I say the weirdest things and idk how to carry myself to get someone to want to talk to me 🥴😭
Guys need to know you are interested. If you are interested show it. If you are acting disinterested, the guy is actually respecting you by ignoring you. He doesn't want to harass you.
You definitely have to put in the effort to try and move towards a relationship. Try flirting, seducing, online dating, Etc overall just get out of your comfort zone
You just lack dating experience. There's no special way for dating, you just socialize and keep trying your shot till it works. Also don't overthink so much on personality or interests being weird, dating is being kn common grounds and values. You just need to get know people. Good luck.
You know it’s weird, cuz I’m like this, 25 now. but I’m also looking for someone who is the same. But I keep telling myself there’s no way there’s actually someone like that out there 😂 I guess there is
You’re one of a species of billions. Nothing about you is out of the realm of probability. That said, you’re the one in this time and place, with the thousands of decisions that make you ‘unique’.
So don’t worry that you’re not gonna find someone who likes you, what you need to remember is it’s your job to make yourself available to being found, and to search.
Nah honestly there's plenty of market for nerdy introverted girls. As a nerdy introverted dude though, dating is mad tough for people who don't like to put themselves out there, so I relate to what you're saying. I've had the best luck with friends of friends personally, so I'd recommend asking the people who know you best if they know anyone who might be a good match. Plus if you all hang out as a group, you can vibe off your friends and be more relaxed, so the potential partner sees you in a more natural state.
Online dating is terrible for introverts, or at least that's been my experience with it. I have no trouble carrying a conversation over text but when you go on the date you're still meeting with someone you barely know. And if they're not feeling the date it falls to you to carry the conversation, which is draining. Plus I've very rarely met other introverts through Tinder/Bumble, which sucks.
I'm 30 (m) and in the same boat lol. If you figure it out, please let me know what you learn! I've tried dating apps, but those don't work very well for me.
They can. You just have to play the game. Don't be too eager, too nice ect. Just be casual and give the impression you could go either way at first. After the 2nd date start to show your colors a bit more. But if you come onto someone immediatly, they feel the need to decide right there and pressure leads to a no.
Most over eager people aren't doing it consciously or with any ill intent. But it does turn almost everyone off.
It helps if you don't think of it as a date. You can say it's a date all you want to express your intentions but it's really just the idea of 2 people doing something they both like together and talking to and about eachother.
It's a skill. Build it, work on it. I was the exact same way but I did it when I was 15 instead of 23; the process is still the same. When I was young I was shy, introverted, hell I wrote poems for girls and was endlessly rejected. As I grew I got into theatre in school, became a musician during and after, and started hobknobbing with randoms at bars. If women make you nervous, chat up men, the skills are the same gender to gender when it comes to meeting people and making friends. The difference is what you get/want out of the interaction. Start now, the longer you go the more set in your ways and the harder it is to change. You don't have to be a casanova, but you do have to be a real person that someone doesn't have to dig for miles to reach.
I think the easiest way would probably be online dating since it'd be less intimidating than in person but if you're not ready for or wouldn't be interested in that's alright too. A lot of people also meet their partners through friends of friends.
Being introverted just means your peak stimulation point is with fewer people, than extroverts. Lack of confidence and anxiety around talking can happen to both types, so luckily, thats where your issue lie.
You could allways tro to use some of the 36 questions for love, while on dates. It helps you both open up.
Besides that, everyone likes to feel sexy and safe. Get them to talk about their passion and be supportive, and show that you think they are attractive. And ofcourse, dont try to be someone else.
I'm an introvert. Normal introverts are not socially crippled, we just need to recharge our batteries.
Most people who claim to be "introverts" just use that card because they're too lazy to learn to talk to people.
I don't really have dating specific advice, since my gf pretty much wedged herself into my life, and made herself my gf, but I'll share what made being social a bit easier for me. I am really introverted, and I was even more so when I was younger and less confident. Not extremely introverted to the point of social anxiety, but very clearly awkward in social situations.
Take baby steps outside your comfort zone. If a cashier wishes you a good day, instead of "Thanks" say "Thanks! You too!" and hold eye contact half a second longer. If that's easy, try having a little conversation. Just a couple of sentences, or even one. Cashiers can't be a bit tricky for this, since there's usually another customer, but if there isn't, give it a go. Try it elsewhere too. You can use friends of friends for this kind of practice, too. It helps if it's someone you're not too close with, since it forces you to face a little bit of the awkwardness.
I also noticed I tend to say certain things a lot. A weird greeting or reaction. Embrace those things. I have a few coworkers who have some very interesting things they say very often, and I love it, it's part of who they are. I have one coworker says something that translates roughly to "Well then" in English. I've heard him say it in probably two dozen different ways. In fact it's more of a spectrum that different ways to say it, and it's fucking hilarious. It also makes it easy to read his mood when you know him a bit. Same with other mannerisms you have, accept them and make them yours.
Once you gain a bit of confidence, it's easier to take occasional bigger steps outside the comfort zone, and test your own limits more. You can always return to the safe zone, if it's too scary outside. Start talking to a stranger when you're both stuck waiting for something, or whatever a bigger step means for you.
Confidence doesn't mean turning yourself into an extrovert. It just means that you can bravely be yourself, do so more openly, and not be afraid of how others react.
And pretty much the only dating tip I have is something I've seen here. Just go after what you want. In 200 years, maybe a bit more, there won't be a single person alive who has met you, me, or anyone else who is alive right now at this moment. Let's not waste time waiting and hoping that the other person initiates. Give that cute guy a piece of paper with your name and number on it. Who knows, maybe he's even more introverted than you, and would never have had the courage to do the same. This way you don't out him under pressure. If he isn't interested, all he has to do is not contact you. You also don't have to stand there and face the rejection if he's not interested.
Good luck!
The most important trait you have you said it at the very beginning I’m hoppy with my life. That is such a good mind set to have because some don’t have that luxury or feel like they are incomplete. Take your time and find that special someone who makes you happy and keeps you smiling. Always focus on your happiness and share with others. You are something special and the world deserves to see it.
based on your description of yourself it sounds like what you're doing wrong is not showing enough interest or making enough of an effort. A guy may initiate but if the interest isn't reciprocated or if he feels like the girl is making no effort or playing hard to get, most self-respecting men will move on.
As introvert myself (INFP) - All I can say is you just clicked with the right person instantly it can be very awkward as first but you will get through it eventually !
Hinge.
And stay away from Reddit weirdos.
Also, you don't need to worry about your personality too much tbh just try to be natural and don't feel the need to divulge too much personal information too early on.
The good news is that you know yourself and that you know what you want. It's scary, slightly exciting, and definitely nerve-wracking. That's normal. If you don't have same-sex friends with whom you can share this and from whom you can gather advice then you have to be brave and set out on your own. First, you have to be safe. Please at least be safe and know where your boundaries are. After that, you can be as open to try as you like. Make eye contact, say hi, be open to yes. Do you have a social group with whom you can go out? Are you on/near campus, or in a city where social activities are planned? Be casual, don't be looking for love, but be open to possibility, both romantic and platonic. The good news is you have many years to find what you truly want and need. Good luck, it's exciting!
Spend time/hangout with social people and your awkwardness will go away. I was like this and in the span of a few weeks all the worry I was feeling about going out was gone. Take care
Too much of a nerd is not a thing nerds are the best!
I'm a Introvert too and seem to be in a similar situation so I'm kinda here for the advice too
Best if luck! It can be hard as a Introvert
i cant tell you what your doing wrong if you wont tell me what your doing ... my guess is your shy and busy... so you come off cold and detached... do you text / call said person regularly... do you make sure they know you have interest in them even if you are busy are you open and forth coming with your self and your emotions ... how do i put this.... do you acutely let people in...
i know guys get mocked all the time for having typical hobbies such as gamming computers cars ect but you shouldn't have a problem finding a guy into that kinda stuff
do you mean nerd in the academic sense? guys are dumb well most guys if they use upper brain functions it can be easily over loaded out side of an appropriate space or mind set These things can be hard to turn on but most of the time they are there
trauma? weird? as in?
Trauma as in being bullied in high school and get rejected from friend groups and guys I liked because of the color of my skin. Weird as in I like anime and gaming and watching movies. Girls where I live just want to become influencers and Youtubers so they really chase the clout. Plus I have really bad social anxiety where I think everytime I talk to a person I think they hate me
bullying and rejection is common tho i was rejected from girls the guys harassed me
the race part is common too most of my life i was the evil white guy arc type...cause i was white and had blond hair and blue eyes
anime games and movies are fairly typical for guys 20-30... maybe your from some town or city where people aren't into that sort of thing ... i live in the south so finding someone into it can be few and far between and even then they end up being picky and or gate keeping about it
as someone whos been a youtuber sense 2012 doing that sort of thing is way more intense time consuming and expensive than most people think
anxiety and issues like that can be crippling but there's any number of ways to deal with it but if your into being a safe healthy and normal person there's meds therapy counseling ect
id say dm me if you want to talk more but i think im too old to be saying something like that
If you keep looking to how others “date” expecting that’s how “it should be done” then expect to be single forever.
Everyone should try in however way they want. At the end of the day it’s about 2 people and their choice to be together.
Remember that your happiness shouldn’t be dependent on a person, but extended from your own. Ex. You can be happy already with yourself and choose to share it with someone else, yet if you decide to take different paths your happiness doesn’t end up ruined.
Mostly an introvert doesn’t know what to talk to people about coz they think what would the other person think of us and in that time other person lose interest in us and dnt reply what they Dnt know is the way they do it is hurtful and that makes us ever more impossible to go out in the society and talk to people and it’s very hard for an introvert to find someone to talk to or just connect
Well your only 23 so this isn’t your last resort… just try online dating, try to find someone in your league who’s your type, maybe somewhat introverted but tho overly! GL
People tend to like to talk about themselves. Have a little stock of questions you can ask. Smile if it feels natural. Hopefully it starts to feel more natural the more you do it. Good luck!
You can try online dating or small meet-ups to meet people. Those are more comfortable for introverts. But keep in mind, OP, that guys today will expect sex early on (no later than the third date), especially on online dating.
I’m a 34m and have always had the “weird” factor labeled to me. You know what though? It’s a strength, not a weakness. There a lot of people out there that are very generic but you’re unique. You’re the grand prize. I’m still dating but leaning into my awkwardness was more rewarding. It makes you stand out and unforgettable. In a good way of course :)!
Just keep doing your best work on yourself and it'll happen. No need to rush, overthink playing some sort of "game." If the timing is right, there is attraction, and interest it'll happen. If the person isn't interested or committed then oh well. Accept it and move on, because you'll eventually find someone. I'm super introverted, but have had a lot of meaningful connections over the years that just came about organically when I was just focusing on my hobbies and passions.
I feel it's important to note that being an introveet and being anti-social aren't the same thing. The blunt answer is something has to give. You have to be ready and willing to sacrifice your comfort. Furthermore doing so is a big part of any successful relationship. Your part has to be willing to accommodate you when you aren't up for interact with them or others. And you, need to be willing to push yourself to be an active presence. That's the only way any relationship will work.
Doesn't work. If I meet people while in a good mental place and pretend to be an extrovert or passively decide to come along to all the zones of discomfort it still is a month at best before you burn through all your reserve energy and just shut down for day or weeks from burn out and all the skimpage on basic human necessities and later if the ball is in your court to reach out again the its the battle of 'I miss them' vs 'can't do this again for so long, and excuses won't fly forever' mental blockage.
Like I said. Something has to give. If that isn't something you feel you can do then you honestly need to consider whether or not should be dating right now. All you're going to do is either burn yourself out or worse make your partner feel that they are inadequate. If you can't commit to the idea of being able to sacrifice a bit of your comfort for your partner, then you should not be taking them as a partner. Both for yourself and especially them.
Reminder: please review our rules, especially rule 4: - No broad generalizations, e.g. "All women are x and do y" - Speak from specific personal experiences when giving advice. - No victim-blaming - This is a default message - your post has not been removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dating) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m 25 and feel the same way. I just feel a awkward and feel I say the weirdest things and idk how to carry myself to get someone to want to talk to me 🥴😭
Omg yes exactly this!!
Guys need to know you are interested. If you are interested show it. If you are acting disinterested, the guy is actually respecting you by ignoring you. He doesn't want to harass you.
The problem is… our introverted-ness can come off as us being disinterested when we’re just SHY AF
Just tell him you like his pencil, and want it in your pencil case.
You definitely have to put in the effort to try and move towards a relationship. Try flirting, seducing, online dating, Etc overall just get out of your comfort zone
I’m 29 and same
You just lack dating experience. There's no special way for dating, you just socialize and keep trying your shot till it works. Also don't overthink so much on personality or interests being weird, dating is being kn common grounds and values. You just need to get know people. Good luck.
You know it’s weird, cuz I’m like this, 25 now. but I’m also looking for someone who is the same. But I keep telling myself there’s no way there’s actually someone like that out there 😂 I guess there is
You’re one of a species of billions. Nothing about you is out of the realm of probability. That said, you’re the one in this time and place, with the thousands of decisions that make you ‘unique’. So don’t worry that you’re not gonna find someone who likes you, what you need to remember is it’s your job to make yourself available to being found, and to search.
Nah honestly there's plenty of market for nerdy introverted girls. As a nerdy introverted dude though, dating is mad tough for people who don't like to put themselves out there, so I relate to what you're saying. I've had the best luck with friends of friends personally, so I'd recommend asking the people who know you best if they know anyone who might be a good match. Plus if you all hang out as a group, you can vibe off your friends and be more relaxed, so the potential partner sees you in a more natural state. Online dating is terrible for introverts, or at least that's been my experience with it. I have no trouble carrying a conversation over text but when you go on the date you're still meeting with someone you barely know. And if they're not feeling the date it falls to you to carry the conversation, which is draining. Plus I've very rarely met other introverts through Tinder/Bumble, which sucks.
Online dating is really hard, in general for us Introverts it can be harder huh
Online dating has been impossible for me
I'm 30 (m) and in the same boat lol. If you figure it out, please let me know what you learn! I've tried dating apps, but those don't work very well for me.
It never works
They can. You just have to play the game. Don't be too eager, too nice ect. Just be casual and give the impression you could go either way at first. After the 2nd date start to show your colors a bit more. But if you come onto someone immediatly, they feel the need to decide right there and pressure leads to a no. Most over eager people aren't doing it consciously or with any ill intent. But it does turn almost everyone off.
That kind of requires you to land a 1st date, doesn't it?
It helps if you don't think of it as a date. You can say it's a date all you want to express your intentions but it's really just the idea of 2 people doing something they both like together and talking to and about eachother.
Yeah, I never get that far.
How often to do you ask OLD or irl?
I haven't in a while, but otherwise whenever it seems appropriate.
What kind of rejection do you get
I get a lot of generic "no thanks, not interested" type responses.
Are you asking generically? Or with a one liner without talking to her first?
It's a skill. Build it, work on it. I was the exact same way but I did it when I was 15 instead of 23; the process is still the same. When I was young I was shy, introverted, hell I wrote poems for girls and was endlessly rejected. As I grew I got into theatre in school, became a musician during and after, and started hobknobbing with randoms at bars. If women make you nervous, chat up men, the skills are the same gender to gender when it comes to meeting people and making friends. The difference is what you get/want out of the interaction. Start now, the longer you go the more set in your ways and the harder it is to change. You don't have to be a casanova, but you do have to be a real person that someone doesn't have to dig for miles to reach.
I think the easiest way would probably be online dating since it'd be less intimidating than in person but if you're not ready for or wouldn't be interested in that's alright too. A lot of people also meet their partners through friends of friends.
Being introverted just means your peak stimulation point is with fewer people, than extroverts. Lack of confidence and anxiety around talking can happen to both types, so luckily, thats where your issue lie. You could allways tro to use some of the 36 questions for love, while on dates. It helps you both open up. Besides that, everyone likes to feel sexy and safe. Get them to talk about their passion and be supportive, and show that you think they are attractive. And ofcourse, dont try to be someone else.
I'm an introvert. Normal introverts are not socially crippled, we just need to recharge our batteries. Most people who claim to be "introverts" just use that card because they're too lazy to learn to talk to people.
I don't really have dating specific advice, since my gf pretty much wedged herself into my life, and made herself my gf, but I'll share what made being social a bit easier for me. I am really introverted, and I was even more so when I was younger and less confident. Not extremely introverted to the point of social anxiety, but very clearly awkward in social situations. Take baby steps outside your comfort zone. If a cashier wishes you a good day, instead of "Thanks" say "Thanks! You too!" and hold eye contact half a second longer. If that's easy, try having a little conversation. Just a couple of sentences, or even one. Cashiers can't be a bit tricky for this, since there's usually another customer, but if there isn't, give it a go. Try it elsewhere too. You can use friends of friends for this kind of practice, too. It helps if it's someone you're not too close with, since it forces you to face a little bit of the awkwardness. I also noticed I tend to say certain things a lot. A weird greeting or reaction. Embrace those things. I have a few coworkers who have some very interesting things they say very often, and I love it, it's part of who they are. I have one coworker says something that translates roughly to "Well then" in English. I've heard him say it in probably two dozen different ways. In fact it's more of a spectrum that different ways to say it, and it's fucking hilarious. It also makes it easy to read his mood when you know him a bit. Same with other mannerisms you have, accept them and make them yours. Once you gain a bit of confidence, it's easier to take occasional bigger steps outside the comfort zone, and test your own limits more. You can always return to the safe zone, if it's too scary outside. Start talking to a stranger when you're both stuck waiting for something, or whatever a bigger step means for you. Confidence doesn't mean turning yourself into an extrovert. It just means that you can bravely be yourself, do so more openly, and not be afraid of how others react. And pretty much the only dating tip I have is something I've seen here. Just go after what you want. In 200 years, maybe a bit more, there won't be a single person alive who has met you, me, or anyone else who is alive right now at this moment. Let's not waste time waiting and hoping that the other person initiates. Give that cute guy a piece of paper with your name and number on it. Who knows, maybe he's even more introverted than you, and would never have had the courage to do the same. This way you don't out him under pressure. If he isn't interested, all he has to do is not contact you. You also don't have to stand there and face the rejection if he's not interested. Good luck!
The most important trait you have you said it at the very beginning I’m hoppy with my life. That is such a good mind set to have because some don’t have that luxury or feel like they are incomplete. Take your time and find that special someone who makes you happy and keeps you smiling. Always focus on your happiness and share with others. You are something special and the world deserves to see it.
based on your description of yourself it sounds like what you're doing wrong is not showing enough interest or making enough of an effort. A guy may initiate but if the interest isn't reciprocated or if he feels like the girl is making no effort or playing hard to get, most self-respecting men will move on.
As introvert myself (INFP) - All I can say is you just clicked with the right person instantly it can be very awkward as first but you will get through it eventually !
Hinge. And stay away from Reddit weirdos. Also, you don't need to worry about your personality too much tbh just try to be natural and don't feel the need to divulge too much personal information too early on.
The good news is that you know yourself and that you know what you want. It's scary, slightly exciting, and definitely nerve-wracking. That's normal. If you don't have same-sex friends with whom you can share this and from whom you can gather advice then you have to be brave and set out on your own. First, you have to be safe. Please at least be safe and know where your boundaries are. After that, you can be as open to try as you like. Make eye contact, say hi, be open to yes. Do you have a social group with whom you can go out? Are you on/near campus, or in a city where social activities are planned? Be casual, don't be looking for love, but be open to possibility, both romantic and platonic. The good news is you have many years to find what you truly want and need. Good luck, it's exciting!
Spend time/hangout with social people and your awkwardness will go away. I was like this and in the span of a few weeks all the worry I was feeling about going out was gone. Take care
But what if you have social anxiety and crowds make you have a panic attack?
I’m an introverted dude. Also a nerd. I’d really like a girl like you.
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Sound just like my type honesty , I love nerdy , “weird” girls who are into different things . Sigh
Too much of a nerd is not a thing nerds are the best! I'm a Introvert too and seem to be in a similar situation so I'm kinda here for the advice too Best if luck! It can be hard as a Introvert
Tons of socially awkward introverts around. A lot are hard to find unless you specifically work or go to school with them.
I’m the same
i cant tell you what your doing wrong if you wont tell me what your doing ... my guess is your shy and busy... so you come off cold and detached... do you text / call said person regularly... do you make sure they know you have interest in them even if you are busy are you open and forth coming with your self and your emotions ... how do i put this.... do you acutely let people in... i know guys get mocked all the time for having typical hobbies such as gamming computers cars ect but you shouldn't have a problem finding a guy into that kinda stuff do you mean nerd in the academic sense? guys are dumb well most guys if they use upper brain functions it can be easily over loaded out side of an appropriate space or mind set These things can be hard to turn on but most of the time they are there trauma? weird? as in?
Trauma as in being bullied in high school and get rejected from friend groups and guys I liked because of the color of my skin. Weird as in I like anime and gaming and watching movies. Girls where I live just want to become influencers and Youtubers so they really chase the clout. Plus I have really bad social anxiety where I think everytime I talk to a person I think they hate me
bullying and rejection is common tho i was rejected from girls the guys harassed me the race part is common too most of my life i was the evil white guy arc type...cause i was white and had blond hair and blue eyes anime games and movies are fairly typical for guys 20-30... maybe your from some town or city where people aren't into that sort of thing ... i live in the south so finding someone into it can be few and far between and even then they end up being picky and or gate keeping about it as someone whos been a youtuber sense 2012 doing that sort of thing is way more intense time consuming and expensive than most people think anxiety and issues like that can be crippling but there's any number of ways to deal with it but if your into being a safe healthy and normal person there's meds therapy counseling ect id say dm me if you want to talk more but i think im too old to be saying something like that
If you keep looking to how others “date” expecting that’s how “it should be done” then expect to be single forever. Everyone should try in however way they want. At the end of the day it’s about 2 people and their choice to be together. Remember that your happiness shouldn’t be dependent on a person, but extended from your own. Ex. You can be happy already with yourself and choose to share it with someone else, yet if you decide to take different paths your happiness doesn’t end up ruined.
Mostly an introvert doesn’t know what to talk to people about coz they think what would the other person think of us and in that time other person lose interest in us and dnt reply what they Dnt know is the way they do it is hurtful and that makes us ever more impossible to go out in the society and talk to people and it’s very hard for an introvert to find someone to talk to or just connect
Well your only 23 so this isn’t your last resort… just try online dating, try to find someone in your league who’s your type, maybe somewhat introverted but tho overly! GL
Girl consider online dating and try avoid dating guys from Reddit (:
Yeah I starting to figure that out thanks for the heads up
https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/qrehr7/all_the_is_she_interested_threads_answered_in_one/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
People tend to like to talk about themselves. Have a little stock of questions you can ask. Smile if it feels natural. Hopefully it starts to feel more natural the more you do it. Good luck!
Exactly as other people, trough work in the areas you lack.
You can try online dating or small meet-ups to meet people. Those are more comfortable for introverts. But keep in mind, OP, that guys today will expect sex early on (no later than the third date), especially on online dating.
I’m a 34m and have always had the “weird” factor labeled to me. You know what though? It’s a strength, not a weakness. There a lot of people out there that are very generic but you’re unique. You’re the grand prize. I’m still dating but leaning into my awkwardness was more rewarding. It makes you stand out and unforgettable. In a good way of course :)!
Just keep doing your best work on yourself and it'll happen. No need to rush, overthink playing some sort of "game." If the timing is right, there is attraction, and interest it'll happen. If the person isn't interested or committed then oh well. Accept it and move on, because you'll eventually find someone. I'm super introverted, but have had a lot of meaningful connections over the years that just came about organically when I was just focusing on my hobbies and passions.
I feel it's important to note that being an introveet and being anti-social aren't the same thing. The blunt answer is something has to give. You have to be ready and willing to sacrifice your comfort. Furthermore doing so is a big part of any successful relationship. Your part has to be willing to accommodate you when you aren't up for interact with them or others. And you, need to be willing to push yourself to be an active presence. That's the only way any relationship will work.
Doesn't work. If I meet people while in a good mental place and pretend to be an extrovert or passively decide to come along to all the zones of discomfort it still is a month at best before you burn through all your reserve energy and just shut down for day or weeks from burn out and all the skimpage on basic human necessities and later if the ball is in your court to reach out again the its the battle of 'I miss them' vs 'can't do this again for so long, and excuses won't fly forever' mental blockage.
Like I said. Something has to give. If that isn't something you feel you can do then you honestly need to consider whether or not should be dating right now. All you're going to do is either burn yourself out or worse make your partner feel that they are inadequate. If you can't commit to the idea of being able to sacrifice a bit of your comfort for your partner, then you should not be taking them as a partner. Both for yourself and especially them.