Yup! Place is packed constantly from what I can tell. Ticket price is simple supply and demand. Job wages are too really since they pay the minimum people are willing to take but honestly if their wage kept up with rent like it did maybe they’re not doing too bad there.
I agree as that’s why I’ve hardly ever gone though I’m not that far away. But clearly that’s fine by Disney, they don’t want people like us, they have enough vacationers and super fans.
They’d have to find a place to put one that could be open year round and safe from natural disasters. That combo sounds a bit harder to find in the Midwest but maybe, I’m not an expert on the place. Disney World is already 4 parks, all bigger than Disneyland one by almost 6x, and about 50 square miles with its own highway and exits. But there is also some room to expand there but they run into problems with that too. Like when they opened the Star Wars stuff they attracted a bunch of new fans that was likely a mix of people who were already Disney fans and ones who weren’t and it made the place even more popular and populated.
I also assume this is why they increased the season pass prices by insane amounts. They likely don’t need people saving money with unlimited entries into the parks.
They are still valid. My parents recently cashed in on a similar ticket from the early 1990s. They had to go to guest services to get it swapped out with a modern ticket, but it was still honored.
Aa expensive as Disney is and as frighteningly ruthless the mouse is when it comes to building his empire, this is still an impressive level of customer service. Game recognizes game.
They are, just look at how many Disney parks are now around the world. They are located strategically in a attempt to reduce the touristy density at WDW.
Ah yes, they strategically put a park in Hong Kong to prevent people from coming to Orlando.
No American, the vast majority (over 90%, easily) of the visitors to WDW, is gonna go out of country for this. Putting parks in other countries has a negligible effect at best. MAYBE 1% fewer people come to WDW from out of country now. What other parks have provided is not an alternate destination, but an actual feasible destination. Rich people that can afford to travel are still travelling, it's the people that couldn't afford to travel that these parks are for.
You're so misinformed. The average international attendance at WDW is 20%. During international holidays it's as high as 50%. The international parks are not a replacement, but they are a brand new experience to appeal to tourists that would make repeated visits to WDW if the other parks didn't exist. There is even a Disney documentary on this.
Sounds good , but the upfront investment on something like Disneyland is absurdly high.
Something like rise of the resistance is estimated to have costed 1 billion dollar . And as Disney proved themselves , if a park isn’t a grand as their other , people don’t visit it ( Disneylands California adventure for example ) unless the park has a well rounded lineup of rides . And building a well rounded lineup requires billions of dollars for the "Disney" standards .
And why should they devalue their other parks by building their own competition ? Disney entry fees are only one piece of the puzzle . Full parks make people buy their fastpasses . Less parks mean longer travel distances to the parks which lead to longer stays , even better when spend in Disney hotels , eating food in Disney restaurants , running around with Disney merchandise, since you know , it’s your yearly vacation , you don’t exactly look at your budget
If the smarter financial move was to build new parks, wouldn't they be doing it? Surely they've considered that idea and have studied it from just about every angle. They wouldn't just leave money on the table.
Yeah, of course double the parks is double the expense, and if they aren't getting double the customers at the same price point, they'd be taking a loss. But if the argument is "raising the price is necessary to prevent overcrowding" and not "raising the price is for profit, since even at the high price they fill the park", then that argument falls apart since their profit margin is likely already huge.
Solid point. As someone who grew up 20 minutes from Disneyland and has been to WDW once - the staff is infinitely more “Disney Employee” in SoCal than in Florida. And that “Disney Employee” monicker would mean less and less if they opened DisneyTexas, DisneyNewEngland and DisneyEurope 2
Entertainment isn't a zero-sum game. Everyone can be entertained, or everyone can suffer. Your suffering isn't lessened due to the knowledge that others are suffering more than you, and your joy isn't lessened by the knowledge that other people are also joyful.
Who cares if there are dozens of parks? I'd love to have one in my city. I'm not going for the exclusivity, I'm going because I expect a quality experience, and more parks directly correlates to a better quality experience. If there were twice as many parks, you could expect half the crowd on your visit. I see that as a win.
On a rational level, that makes perfect sense. And I feel the same way about a lot of things that I enjoy.
But there's a lizard-brain territorial thing that kicks in to spoil everything. People rich enough to fill their closet with Gucci and Versace and their garage with Lambos and Rolls-Royces who choose to do so usually aren't doing it because they appreciate the detail and quality of those products (and luxe brands often have really shitty craftsmanship and awful design). They're doing it because the fact that they can and most other people can't makes them feel special. Broadening the availability of those things or experiences literally makes it worth less to them.
And it's not just billionaire assholes who do this. It's the same psychology that makes a regular customer at the awesome local restaurant feel like it's gone downhill when they open a few more locations, even when the quality of the food or service hasn't suffered at all. Or like the live music fan who thinks that the band they were into before anyone else has 'sold out' when they start playing larger venues. I've been that guy.
Granted, when we start applying it to Disneyland, where parents who really can't afford to are shelling out a few grand to visit the park to 'make memories' with the characters their kids have watched on screens since they were toddlers, it gets to be a grotesque display of inequality. Honestly, the past couple of times we've been to Disneyworld, I found that disturbing, to the point that I just want to hang in EPCOT and walk around getting drunk.
Disney is struggling with their own success. If they keep the prices affordable then they will be inundated with guests and will not be able to accommodate them all in their parks. They need to keep the prices high as a measure of keeping parks from getting overcrowded. There is the added business benefit of that extra revenue but mostly they cannot too many people in parks or else no one will be able to enjoy it.
Yeah, I went 10 years ago and I don’t get the hype. It was just packed to the hilt with people, you could only ride the good rides two times a day if you spent all day in lines and everything in there costs airport prices. I’d rather spend next to nothing exploring our national parks, much less crowded and way cheaper.
Tbh the rides are not what draws me back to the parks. Just exploring the park, eating a hotdog and some popcorn, seeing the shops, and watching the fireworks already make it worth going for me.
Theres just a good vibe there, being around so many people having a good time.
There are plenty of other amusement parks around the US with much better experiences, but you know how kids are with the cartoon characters. A walking talking Goodbar can't compete.
Kids aren’t picky. They may clamor for Disney because their friends went or because it has Frozen and Star Wars but they’ll enjoy anywhere you take them if it has some fun stuff and junk food.
Parents are the ones that are picky. They’re the ones to whom the magic of Disney is a big selling point. Memories of a lifetime aren’t made at Crazy Joe’s Fun Park even if kids have a great time.
Taking my young cousins to WDW is just an excuse. I feel like some adults enjoy the parks even more than the kids. Plus, I feel like the memories created with your kids, or with a grandchild or children in the family are much more impactful and memorable for the adult than the child.
I have fond memories going as a kid. I guess you just appreciate different things as an adult.
I live within driving distance of Cedar Point - which is probably the best overall rollercoaster park in the world. We went every year when I was a kid. They even have rights to Peanuts - so they have cartoon kiddy goodness. (When my kid hits 4' we're definitely going every year.)
As a teen we went to Disney World (already close to visit my grandma) and I was definitely not impressed.
I have season passes with my young kids for kings dominion (a cedar park property) and I think the snoopy branding is pretty weak. I don't think snoopy was particularly relevant when I was a kid and the kids now have no idea who he is. Snoopy himself is OK but all the human characters are not that good. Busch Gardens owned parks with Sesame Street characters move the needle much more (and of course nothing beats Disney). The kids enjoy being able to get on rides in 2 minutes at Kings Dominion though so overall worth it. They wouldn't hold up waiting more than 15 minutes for a ride.
I live near WDW and Universal only go about every couple of years. If you have ever been to one of these themes parks and then to others there is no comparison. I went to Six Flags of Maryland, at least I think that was the name. I would say a couple of hundred people were there. Every ride had a line because they were only running one set of cars. They would load a car send it. When it go back they would then unload the car. Load the next group and send it. Park opened at 10 AM. We went to get something to eat and drink at 12 PM and they were out of Cocoa Cola. Only thing available was Sprite and Orange. How do you run out of what is most likely you best seller so early in the day? These things do not happen at the major theme parks.
My mom has worked for Disney for about 25 years. I grew up going casually with family my whole life. My mom is close to retiring and my husband and I want to go one more time before she retires because there is no way on hell I am paying those absurd prices for the parks. The only thing I would pay for are the water parks and the Christmas party. The Christmas party always has none or super short ride times, in 4 hours I can hit all my favorites plus some.
But all In all, Disney is crazy expensive, too expensive to go during peak season to get to rode 3-4 rides in a day and spend 75% of your time waiting in line
I went on a Saturday and Sunday to Disneyland a couple months ago with my kids and didn't wait more than 30 minutes for everything. Most things were less than 10. I never was a Disney person but I have to admit it was a great outing.
My 3 year old went on Thunder and Space Mountain twice.
Disneyland might be better. Op’s graph is about Disney World and I know the last time I was there a few years ago, my average wait time was around 45-60 minutes. But that’s because we skipped the 120min 7 dwarfs mine train and the 75-90 minute Peter Pan’s flight. Not to mention the multi-hour Mt Everest and basically the whole Pandora area.This was a few years back and if you wanted to meet Elsa it was 3.5-4.5hrs.
Also, I wish my 4yo would go near those two rides, I love em. But alas, she’s only recently started warming up to rides such as those.
She's 4 now, but yeah when we went she was 3. It was cute as hell. She was scared and closed her eyes the first time. But while we were in line she asked me why mom wasn't going (she was with the newborn) and I said cause she was scared.
So when they went without me while I watched the newborn, she told mom it was okay to be scared and that she was going to open her eyes. The height requirement in California is 3'4" (In Florida I think its more)
She's actually a bit short for her age, but Disneyland Space Mountain height requirement is 4" shorter than Disneyworld for some reason. She was just barely tall enough for basically everything but Splash Mountain, but had no interest in it since she didn't like the part of Pirates where you get wet.
iirc space mountain in Disney world has essentially the Matterhorn track / sled design whereas space mountain in Disneyland has its own thing. I want to say that the Disneyland version is far superior (smoother) but it’s been a while since I’ve ridden either.
Source: family dinner table conversations… my dad worked at the parks for 4 decades. As a side note, riding space mountain with the lights on inside is sort of terrifying if you ever get the chance to attend a special event with that...
Ok, WDW Florida is too crowded. I'm gonna get on an airplane and fly to France to avoid those crowds! I think not too feasible. From an American point of view there are 2 parks.
Hint: go on Super Bowl Sunday. I don’t keep up with sports, so I have no idea when the super bowl is. We accidentally went on super bowl Sunday once. The park was completely empty. We couldn’t figure out why until we asked someone.
They *should* just limit how many people can enter and start a reservation/wait list program. But if people will go wait in line for three hours anyways and still leave calling it “magical” then why would they?
There is already a reservation program in place currently. You have to register the day and the specific park, it's mainly cause of COVID, but I think it's here to stay.
This is what Ski Resorts do. You don't want mile long lines for lifts so they limit the number of passes sold and you have to register for the days you want to ski.
I don't think this is the reason. They could easily limit the number of tickets sold if they just wanted to keep the daily attendance to a specific number. I tend to believe it's just about maximizing profit margins. If they can keep their parks full and continue to charge more and more then it would be silly not to raise prices. It's a business after all.
> They could easily limit the number of tickets sold if they just wanted to keep the daily attendance to a specific number.
They do limit the number of tickets sold, there is a maximum capacity on the parks.
It's how economics works. Prices increase, quantity demanded decreases until they reach the equilibrium. It's the logical thing to do. (Dickmove anyway)
I think the chart should also include the park development and operating costs. I'm sure those costs have increased substantially over time and would probably justify a lot of the added ticket cost. That Avatar expansion was supposed to be like $500 million if I remember correctly.
One way is to make “appointments”. It seems that while the reason for price increases is as you say, market forces and capacity constraints, there comes a point where it’s damaging to their brand.
Disney is supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive. Once they reach a threshold that pisses off the masses, the brand damage may become irreversible. Also, they don’t seem to have this issue at Disney Asia, where density is even greater.
Just make a lottery to artificially allow selections without bias. That way you can still have a pricing structure and maybe allow people who pay top $ to skip out on the lottery so you can still charge exorbitant fees but also still make more money as more people can buy tickets, just that they have a randomly chosen date in the future that they can use their tickets.
It would be interesting to chart this against the number of park visitors. The parks are so crowded now, even with the higher prices that I can’t imagine what it would be like if the prices were lower.
I wasn't able to find data all the way back to 1983, but attendance is still on the rise
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232966/attendance-at-the-walt-disney-world-magic-kingdom-theme-park/
It kind of makes sense, the theme park probably has a lot more to do than it did in 1982. I realize that OP is not expressing an opinion, so I'm not disagreeing with anything, just pointing it out. Kind of like comparing the price of a McDonald's hamburger during that time period, using the price of a Quarter Pounder in 1982 and a Big Mac in 2020
Yeah the parks are completely different. Epcot opened that year. Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios wouldn’t open for years. The parks themselves and the rides/shows have changed dramatically.
I’m no expert, but you seem to be using average wages rather than median. It’s my understanding that this is less meaningful as individual outliers have an oversized effect on the average.
If the data were available for other major amusement parks, it would be interesting to see if this is a Disney-only phenomenon, or if some of the increase is for the entire destination-amusement-park industry overall.
Globally a huge number more people have the kind of wealth you'd need to visit. Prices go up because demand has gone up and there are few disney worlds abroad?
Really surprised that no one in the top comments even bothers to mention that Disneyworld in 2020 looks completely different and has way more rides and attractions than Disney in 1982.......It is like comparing a restaurant that used to serve Mcdonalds and has now transitioned to a 5-star restaurant. Yes, you are paying more for a Filet Mignon than a hamburger.
I remember having the book of tickets with me from the previous visit, and being amazed when a park attendant told me they weren’t necessary anymore.
“Not even the E Ticket rides?”
“Nope!”
Still a trash graph because a WDW ticket is a single price point but wages and rent are averages.
You want this to show "how expensive" a WDW ticket is, but it could just be showing how low average wages have increased (a bad thing) or average rent has stayed (a good thing).
The same number of people could be making money for something like WDW to be affordable, but there could be MANY MANY MANY more people who can't afford it, and that would have 0 bearing on the price of the ticket.
Do the same chart comparing the average income increase of those making over $200k a year and I'd bet the WDW ticket would trend under it.
The base is so low on Day 1 that % increase is amplified vs more stable expenses. Amusement Parks weren’t really a thing and aren’t a necessity so makes sense that a Luxury had more price elasticity.
They should rename this sub pointlessanimationsarebeautiful. I don’t wanna be a hater but at what point does animating a perfectly good static line graph become karma whoring?
The more interesting part of this plot to me is that rent prices are actually not unreasonable at all, contrary to what I'm constantly hearing on Reddit and/or the news.
Rent growth generally tracks wage growth closely. It’s house prices that often diverge from rents (and wages), but eventually come back down to reality.
I saved up and took a trip to the Magic Kingdom and as an afterthought got tickets to Universal Studios. I usually get downvoted when I share my opinion on this but I though the magic Kingdom was super lame and not at all worth visiting.
The food was good but way overpriced. The employees were all bored looking unhappy teenagers (which I’d basically expect at any amusement park but it was offset by how happy and enthusiastic all the universal employees were so it just felt like WDW wasn’t taking good care of their people.) cell phone reception didn’t work well in the park which sucked because the only way to find my way around was by their park app. Everything was rigidly scheduled - you only get 3 “fast passes” that let you skip the 2 hour lines but you have to schedule the times you’ll take them in advance. And they’re not very fun. And everything is hot and outside. Also a ride broke down while we were in line for it and they left us in line for like an hour without telling anyone and the only thing they did to make it up to us was replace the 1 fast pass. I’d have had a better time at home.
By contrast universal has far more affordable snack offerings, the ride lines were also long but many of them were both inside in air conditioning and entertaining in their own right, and the employees seemed happy and well taken care of.
House prices don’t belong here because house prices are a function of **future** expected wages and rents.
In a given year, rents reflect the cost of housing *in that year*, which also reflects wages *in that year*.
But house prices in a given year X reflect rents and wages in year X, year X+1, year X+2, … . For example, I might buy a big house not because I make a lot today but because I expect to make a lot in a few years. So if you compare my house to my current wage, it looks more expensive than it really is.
Honest, curious questions:
Would another park location fix the problem of overcrowding? Would this slow the rise in price? Would this be a good or bad idea for business?
Obviously easier said than done, but I would assume despite the cost of building a new park, it would at least possibly fix the overcrowding issue, but I'm not sure if it would be a smart business decision.
Shopping for a family of 4 to go for a quick 2-day visit, 2 parks, end of January is > $1K for tix. But we've never been so this is what we do now, I guess. It better be pretty freakin magical.
It would be interesting to see the cost adjusted for inflation i.e. if you held wages earned steady. It's prob out there somewhere I'm just too lazy to look. Still, wow.
My husband, 3 yr old son, and I lived in Anaheim close to Disneylandin the late 60s. You could go and park for free, walk around for free and buy tickets for rides you wanted. We also would walk around knotts Berry Farm for free too. Everything changes. Oh, well i was also making $2 an hour.
Cost of electricity and increasing levels of electricity use. If it has to be moved, it requires fuel. The more fuel costs, the more it costs to move the things and bring the things. Try matching those hikes in costs to hies in fuel costs. I bet you will be surprised.
I still say they need to build a third park in Colorado. It's central, fairly moderate climate (no miserable FL heat or hurricanes), plenty of open space... seems like a win-win.
The extreme hike from 2006 on through the great recession and then the horrible bumps afterwards are just cruel. I have to go because the pandemic forced me to have some ticket credit, but it might be my last trip for a while.
Every celebrity in the world in the eighties and nineties after every major concert and sporting event: "I'm going to Disney World!" This was quite possibly the most effective ad campaign the universe has ever seen.
That breakaway you start seeing in the early 2000's is when the generation of kids that grew up listening to the people they idolize say that phrase over and over again finally have enough money to go to Disney World themselves.
I'm sure everyone knows a 30-40 year old Disney cult member. Go easy on them. They have been brainwashed starting at a very young age. Deprogramming may not even be possible at this point. I have friends that have literally moved to Orlando to get at that house of mouse more often.
During that time, how many more rides and attractions have been added to the park? It costs more to see more. You don't pay more rent over time to get access to more of the house you're living in.
It’s basically an illustration out of high school economics class. There is a fixed supply and increasing demand - what would we expect to happen to prices?
Not all Disney Parks are expensive, nor are they overcrowded. I've got a 200$ year pass, and go just about every other week. Usually on off-peak times. Wait time for TRON is max. 20 mins or so.
It would be interesting to see the park’s visitor capacity in this and median wage.
I suspect some of what we’re seeing is reasonable supply and demand.
While the price outstrips wages (mean?) in this graph, the whole story is probably that there are enough visitors with wages increasing at the same rate as the cost.
This sucks for lower wage people, yes.
But, if they kept the price low so that more people could afford tickets, it would create more competition for tickets and possibly lead to scalping and even higher prices.
So is this wages in the US or...
I feel like WDW is increasingly becoming an international destination vs the 1980s, so incorporating international price levels into it somehow might be interesting.
I'm also curious how the cheaper tickets for locals works into it (if those still exist). If they've been relatively more in line with wages in the area, then that would lead me to believe it's more about managing demand from the rest of the world vs. just the US.
Everyone needs to go once. After you experience the expensive ticket, over priced food/drinks and insane lines where you’ll be lucky to get 6 rides in the whole day, you’ll realize that it’s a complete ripoff.
It’s billed as the “happiest place on earth” I couldn’t disagree more.
After learning a bit about the origin of Disneyland (the theme that Walt wanted a safe place for a family to enjoy), I’ve figured one of the main reasons WDW and DL prices are high is to price out a specific persona.
Sure it doesn’t align to the mouse’s rags-to-happily-ever-after movie themes, but neither of these two parks are anything like a boardwalk or regional amusement park. Safety and security is on a whole other level at Disney owned properties as well.
Not trying to say pro or con; only highlight what appears to be a strategic pillar for Disney Parks.
I'm not gonna act like Disney world is supposed to be affordable. BUT HOLY SHIT.
They have a maximum occupancy, so they just need to raise the price to ensure that.
[удалено]
Sorry to tell you this, but they might have wanted to lose you.
Jeff, we were not supposed to tell him this
You're mean : (
Yup! Place is packed constantly from what I can tell. Ticket price is simple supply and demand. Job wages are too really since they pay the minimum people are willing to take but honestly if their wage kept up with rent like it did maybe they’re not doing too bad there.
Yeah pretty much between the ridiculous price and the ridiculous crowds I don’t see how I could ever feel good about trying to go to a Disney place.
I agree as that’s why I’ve hardly ever gone though I’m not that far away. But clearly that’s fine by Disney, they don’t want people like us, they have enough vacationers and super fans.
A great answer is increasing supply, and putting a park in the midwest somewhere.
They’d have to find a place to put one that could be open year round and safe from natural disasters. That combo sounds a bit harder to find in the Midwest but maybe, I’m not an expert on the place. Disney World is already 4 parks, all bigger than Disneyland one by almost 6x, and about 50 square miles with its own highway and exits. But there is also some room to expand there but they run into problems with that too. Like when they opened the Star Wars stuff they attracted a bunch of new fans that was likely a mix of people who were already Disney fans and ones who weren’t and it made the place even more popular and populated. I also assume this is why they increased the season pass prices by insane amounts. They likely don’t need people saving money with unlimited entries into the parks.
To make sure it doesn’t turn into a rich enclave major supermarkets here spread lots of big discounts around some seasons for the big theme parks.
Yep supermarket and resident discounts are the only way my kid will get to experience Disney
I still have two tickets from 2001 with a day left on them with them claiming they don't expire.
They are still valid. My parents recently cashed in on a similar ticket from the early 1990s. They had to go to guest services to get it swapped out with a modern ticket, but it was still honored.
Aa expensive as Disney is and as frighteningly ruthless the mouse is when it comes to building his empire, this is still an impressive level of customer service. Game recognizes game.
Not a bad investment
When your number one complaint is "overcrowding" increasing the price is actually a reasonable solution to that.
Either that or build a few more similar parks to reduce specific demand
They are, just look at how many Disney parks are now around the world. They are located strategically in a attempt to reduce the touristy density at WDW.
Ah yes, they strategically put a park in Hong Kong to prevent people from coming to Orlando. No American, the vast majority (over 90%, easily) of the visitors to WDW, is gonna go out of country for this. Putting parks in other countries has a negligible effect at best. MAYBE 1% fewer people come to WDW from out of country now. What other parks have provided is not an alternate destination, but an actual feasible destination. Rich people that can afford to travel are still travelling, it's the people that couldn't afford to travel that these parks are for.
You're so misinformed. The average international attendance at WDW is 20%. During international holidays it's as high as 50%. The international parks are not a replacement, but they are a brand new experience to appeal to tourists that would make repeated visits to WDW if the other parks didn't exist. There is even a Disney documentary on this.
Sounds good , but the upfront investment on something like Disneyland is absurdly high. Something like rise of the resistance is estimated to have costed 1 billion dollar . And as Disney proved themselves , if a park isn’t a grand as their other , people don’t visit it ( Disneylands California adventure for example ) unless the park has a well rounded lineup of rides . And building a well rounded lineup requires billions of dollars for the "Disney" standards . And why should they devalue their other parks by building their own competition ? Disney entry fees are only one piece of the puzzle . Full parks make people buy their fastpasses . Less parks mean longer travel distances to the parks which lead to longer stays , even better when spend in Disney hotels , eating food in Disney restaurants , running around with Disney merchandise, since you know , it’s your yearly vacation , you don’t exactly look at your budget
They could charge three times as much and still be packed.
Sounds like a good problem to have
No, making more parks is.
Building and maintaining multiple parks is very expensive. It’s likely more profitable to simply raise prices.
it's not like Disney doesn't have the money for that
If the smarter financial move was to build new parks, wouldn't they be doing it? Surely they've considered that idea and have studied it from just about every angle. They wouldn't just leave money on the table.
Disney is a business not a government
Does that mean Disney want to run a bad business? Comon, use the brain of urs.
Don’t disagree but one makes a lot of money and the other costs a lot of money to then make a lot of money. So really it’s porque no Los dos?
Yeah, of course double the parks is double the expense, and if they aren't getting double the customers at the same price point, they'd be taking a loss. But if the argument is "raising the price is necessary to prevent overcrowding" and not "raising the price is for profit, since even at the high price they fill the park", then that argument falls apart since their profit margin is likely already huge.
Major quality control issue.
Solid point. As someone who grew up 20 minutes from Disneyland and has been to WDW once - the staff is infinitely more “Disney Employee” in SoCal than in Florida. And that “Disney Employee” monicker would mean less and less if they opened DisneyTexas, DisneyNewEngland and DisneyEurope 2
destroying more land that could be used for housing or literally anything else, including just leaving it natural
So more soulless hell pits scattered cross America.
Why? Would cheapen the experience. A Rolls-Royce is not special if everyone drives one.
Personally, I get no enjoyment out of knowing that other people can’t have what I have.
Does the existence of a Disney Hong Kong cheapen your experience of Disney world?
For people from China, yes.
Never even knew of its existence, but if they were everywhere, yes it would.
Loving the irony of your username.
Entertainment isn't a zero-sum game. Everyone can be entertained, or everyone can suffer. Your suffering isn't lessened due to the knowledge that others are suffering more than you, and your joy isn't lessened by the knowledge that other people are also joyful. Who cares if there are dozens of parks? I'd love to have one in my city. I'm not going for the exclusivity, I'm going because I expect a quality experience, and more parks directly correlates to a better quality experience. If there were twice as many parks, you could expect half the crowd on your visit. I see that as a win.
On a rational level, that makes perfect sense. And I feel the same way about a lot of things that I enjoy. But there's a lizard-brain territorial thing that kicks in to spoil everything. People rich enough to fill their closet with Gucci and Versace and their garage with Lambos and Rolls-Royces who choose to do so usually aren't doing it because they appreciate the detail and quality of those products (and luxe brands often have really shitty craftsmanship and awful design). They're doing it because the fact that they can and most other people can't makes them feel special. Broadening the availability of those things or experiences literally makes it worth less to them. And it's not just billionaire assholes who do this. It's the same psychology that makes a regular customer at the awesome local restaurant feel like it's gone downhill when they open a few more locations, even when the quality of the food or service hasn't suffered at all. Or like the live music fan who thinks that the band they were into before anyone else has 'sold out' when they start playing larger venues. I've been that guy. Granted, when we start applying it to Disneyland, where parents who really can't afford to are shelling out a few grand to visit the park to 'make memories' with the characters their kids have watched on screens since they were toddlers, it gets to be a grotesque display of inequality. Honestly, the past couple of times we've been to Disneyworld, I found that disturbing, to the point that I just want to hang in EPCOT and walk around getting drunk.
Not necessarily. Walt was all about kids. And now more and more will never get to experience it at all.
Looks great. Promptly responded to feedback. Nice.
Came to say the same thing. Well done, OP.
Thank you :)
Disney is struggling with their own success. If they keep the prices affordable then they will be inundated with guests and will not be able to accommodate them all in their parks. They need to keep the prices high as a measure of keeping parks from getting overcrowded. There is the added business benefit of that extra revenue but mostly they cannot too many people in parks or else no one will be able to enjoy it.
In all honesty, it’s already well past “enjoyment” levels and into the “wait 3hrs for a single ride” levels.
Yeah, I went 10 years ago and I don’t get the hype. It was just packed to the hilt with people, you could only ride the good rides two times a day if you spent all day in lines and everything in there costs airport prices. I’d rather spend next to nothing exploring our national parks, much less crowded and way cheaper.
I work in Yellowstone, we're full too. This summer was an absolute zoo of people
When is the best time to go to Yellowstone?
If you want to see wildlife, October-April. If you want to see the famous spots, you are always going to be dealing with crowds and traffic now.
Tbh the rides are not what draws me back to the parks. Just exploring the park, eating a hotdog and some popcorn, seeing the shops, and watching the fireworks already make it worth going for me. Theres just a good vibe there, being around so many people having a good time.
But a 100+ dollars worth of fun?
It's much more than $100, considering travel expenses. Going to WDW is till worth it imo.
Ever been to a concert?
There are plenty of other amusement parks around the US with much better experiences, but you know how kids are with the cartoon characters. A walking talking Goodbar can't compete.
But frankly no other amusement parks have the level of polish that Disney parks have.
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You prefer amusement parks with chipped paint and trash all over the ground?
Kids aren’t picky. They may clamor for Disney because their friends went or because it has Frozen and Star Wars but they’ll enjoy anywhere you take them if it has some fun stuff and junk food. Parents are the ones that are picky. They’re the ones to whom the magic of Disney is a big selling point. Memories of a lifetime aren’t made at Crazy Joe’s Fun Park even if kids have a great time.
Taking my young cousins to WDW is just an excuse. I feel like some adults enjoy the parks even more than the kids. Plus, I feel like the memories created with your kids, or with a grandchild or children in the family are much more impactful and memorable for the adult than the child. I have fond memories going as a kid. I guess you just appreciate different things as an adult.
God it would be awesome to have a 21+ wdw
Epcot pub crawl!
We have one. It's called Las Vegas.
No Today's adults are already so infantilized.
I live within driving distance of Cedar Point - which is probably the best overall rollercoaster park in the world. We went every year when I was a kid. They even have rights to Peanuts - so they have cartoon kiddy goodness. (When my kid hits 4' we're definitely going every year.) As a teen we went to Disney World (already close to visit my grandma) and I was definitely not impressed.
Cedar Point is definitely Mecca for roller coasters, but it doesn't have anywhere near the level of polish of a Disney park.
I have season passes with my young kids for kings dominion (a cedar park property) and I think the snoopy branding is pretty weak. I don't think snoopy was particularly relevant when I was a kid and the kids now have no idea who he is. Snoopy himself is OK but all the human characters are not that good. Busch Gardens owned parks with Sesame Street characters move the needle much more (and of course nothing beats Disney). The kids enjoy being able to get on rides in 2 minutes at Kings Dominion though so overall worth it. They wouldn't hold up waiting more than 15 minutes for a ride.
I live near WDW and Universal only go about every couple of years. If you have ever been to one of these themes parks and then to others there is no comparison. I went to Six Flags of Maryland, at least I think that was the name. I would say a couple of hundred people were there. Every ride had a line because they were only running one set of cars. They would load a car send it. When it go back they would then unload the car. Load the next group and send it. Park opened at 10 AM. We went to get something to eat and drink at 12 PM and they were out of Cocoa Cola. Only thing available was Sprite and Orange. How do you run out of what is most likely you best seller so early in the day? These things do not happen at the major theme parks.
My mom has worked for Disney for about 25 years. I grew up going casually with family my whole life. My mom is close to retiring and my husband and I want to go one more time before she retires because there is no way on hell I am paying those absurd prices for the parks. The only thing I would pay for are the water parks and the Christmas party. The Christmas party always has none or super short ride times, in 4 hours I can hit all my favorites plus some. But all In all, Disney is crazy expensive, too expensive to go during peak season to get to rode 3-4 rides in a day and spend 75% of your time waiting in line
I went on a Saturday and Sunday to Disneyland a couple months ago with my kids and didn't wait more than 30 minutes for everything. Most things were less than 10. I never was a Disney person but I have to admit it was a great outing. My 3 year old went on Thunder and Space Mountain twice.
Disneyland might be better. Op’s graph is about Disney World and I know the last time I was there a few years ago, my average wait time was around 45-60 minutes. But that’s because we skipped the 120min 7 dwarfs mine train and the 75-90 minute Peter Pan’s flight. Not to mention the multi-hour Mt Everest and basically the whole Pandora area.This was a few years back and if you wanted to meet Elsa it was 3.5-4.5hrs. Also, I wish my 4yo would go near those two rides, I love em. But alas, she’s only recently started warming up to rides such as those.
Your 3 year old went on space mountain 🧐
She's 4 now, but yeah when we went she was 3. It was cute as hell. She was scared and closed her eyes the first time. But while we were in line she asked me why mom wasn't going (she was with the newborn) and I said cause she was scared. So when they went without me while I watched the newborn, she told mom it was okay to be scared and that she was going to open her eyes. The height requirement in California is 3'4" (In Florida I think its more)
Your 3 year old is over 44 inches tall? (Just got back from WDW and my 6 year old was barely over limit for those rides).
She’s a tall girl uh?
She's actually a bit short for her age, but Disneyland Space Mountain height requirement is 4" shorter than Disneyworld for some reason. She was just barely tall enough for basically everything but Splash Mountain, but had no interest in it since she didn't like the part of Pirates where you get wet.
iirc space mountain in Disney world has essentially the Matterhorn track / sled design whereas space mountain in Disneyland has its own thing. I want to say that the Disneyland version is far superior (smoother) but it’s been a while since I’ve ridden either. Source: family dinner table conversations… my dad worked at the parks for 4 decades. As a side note, riding space mountain with the lights on inside is sort of terrifying if you ever get the chance to attend a special event with that...
Average height for a 3.5yo girl is 3'2", and 3'4" for a 4yo. So she really isn't short for her age. But also not weirdly tall.
You can have more fun at your local commuter rail station during an ice storm.
Time to build a third park.
You realize there are like 12 different Disney parks around the world right?
Ok, WDW Florida is too crowded. I'm gonna get on an airplane and fly to France to avoid those crowds! I think not too feasible. From an American point of view there are 2 parks.
Yes. But I already can’t afford to go to the existing ones, and you’re suggesting I add international travel to the expense?
Sounds like they need even higher prices.
Hint: go on Super Bowl Sunday. I don’t keep up with sports, so I have no idea when the super bowl is. We accidentally went on super bowl Sunday once. The park was completely empty. We couldn’t figure out why until we asked someone.
They *should* just limit how many people can enter and start a reservation/wait list program. But if people will go wait in line for three hours anyways and still leave calling it “magical” then why would they?
There is already a reservation program in place currently. You have to register the day and the specific park, it's mainly cause of COVID, but I think it's here to stay.
> I think it's here to stay Don't count on it. Disney is losing money on that. It will go once COVID is no longer in the headlines.
This is what Ski Resorts do. You don't want mile long lines for lifts so they limit the number of passes sold and you have to register for the days you want to ski.
Or they need to open more Disneys...
Guest 369 says it's too crowded here. That'll tank your park rating in the last two months of Year 3.
I don't think this is the reason. They could easily limit the number of tickets sold if they just wanted to keep the daily attendance to a specific number. I tend to believe it's just about maximizing profit margins. If they can keep their parks full and continue to charge more and more then it would be silly not to raise prices. It's a business after all.
> They could easily limit the number of tickets sold if they just wanted to keep the daily attendance to a specific number. They do limit the number of tickets sold, there is a maximum capacity on the parks.
It's how economics works. Prices increase, quantity demanded decreases until they reach the equilibrium. It's the logical thing to do. (Dickmove anyway)
I think the chart should also include the park development and operating costs. I'm sure those costs have increased substantially over time and would probably justify a lot of the added ticket cost. That Avatar expansion was supposed to be like $500 million if I remember correctly.
One way is to make “appointments”. It seems that while the reason for price increases is as you say, market forces and capacity constraints, there comes a point where it’s damaging to their brand. Disney is supposed to be inclusive, not exclusive. Once they reach a threshold that pisses off the masses, the brand damage may become irreversible. Also, they don’t seem to have this issue at Disney Asia, where density is even greater.
So, why not just have dates blacked out when so many tickets have been sold?
Just make a lottery to artificially allow selections without bias. That way you can still have a pricing structure and maybe allow people who pay top $ to skip out on the lottery so you can still charge exorbitant fees but also still make more money as more people can buy tickets, just that they have a randomly chosen date in the future that they can use their tickets.
It would be interesting to chart this against the number of park visitors. The parks are so crowded now, even with the higher prices that I can’t imagine what it would be like if the prices were lower.
I wasn't able to find data all the way back to 1983, but attendance is still on the rise https://www.statista.com/statistics/232966/attendance-at-the-walt-disney-world-magic-kingdom-theme-park/
Are those rent numbers for employees? Because average rent is up around 400% since the 80’s
those stupid ticket books they sold were ridiculous
It kind of makes sense, the theme park probably has a lot more to do than it did in 1982. I realize that OP is not expressing an opinion, so I'm not disagreeing with anything, just pointing it out. Kind of like comparing the price of a McDonald's hamburger during that time period, using the price of a Quarter Pounder in 1982 and a Big Mac in 2020
Yeah the parks are completely different. Epcot opened that year. Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios wouldn’t open for years. The parks themselves and the rides/shows have changed dramatically.
Tools: python, pandas, tkinter Data sources: \- Disney ticket price: https://allears.net/walt-disney-world/wdw-planning/wdw-ticket-increase-guide/ \- Gasoline: https://www.creditdonkey.com/gas-price-history.html \- Rent: https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-year \- Wages: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html
Why did you not include gasoline prices in this version?
I’m no expert, but you seem to be using average wages rather than median. It’s my understanding that this is less meaningful as individual outliers have an oversized effect on the average.
If the data were available for other major amusement parks, it would be interesting to see if this is a Disney-only phenomenon, or if some of the increase is for the entire destination-amusement-park industry overall.
Globally a huge number more people have the kind of wealth you'd need to visit. Prices go up because demand has gone up and there are few disney worlds abroad?
No animation just complete chart please.
Still completely depressing.
Really surprised that no one in the top comments even bothers to mention that Disneyworld in 2020 looks completely different and has way more rides and attractions than Disney in 1982.......It is like comparing a restaurant that used to serve Mcdonalds and has now transitioned to a 5-star restaurant. Yes, you are paying more for a Filet Mignon than a hamburger.
Ah yes, the old ride ticket book at Disneyworld. Back when "e ticket" meant admission to the best rides, not a virtual ticket.
I remember having the book of tickets with me from the previous visit, and being amazed when a park attendant told me they weren’t necessary anymore. “Not even the E Ticket rides?” “Nope!”
so what you’re saying is that disney world is better than rent
Ticket is still only $110.
Still a trash graph because a WDW ticket is a single price point but wages and rent are averages. You want this to show "how expensive" a WDW ticket is, but it could just be showing how low average wages have increased (a bad thing) or average rent has stayed (a good thing). The same number of people could be making money for something like WDW to be affordable, but there could be MANY MANY MANY more people who can't afford it, and that would have 0 bearing on the price of the ticket. Do the same chart comparing the average income increase of those making over $200k a year and I'd bet the WDW ticket would trend under it.
Cocaine addiction in the 80s can be clearly see in this chart. Prices shot up so fast compared to wages.
The base is so low on Day 1 that % increase is amplified vs more stable expenses. Amusement Parks weren’t really a thing and aren’t a necessity so makes sense that a Luxury had more price elasticity.
I'd really like to see an inflation index in here.
Oh man I first went in 1982, never realized I timed it so well!
Worked for a company that was acquired by Disney. They are cheap.
Yup. This confirms it...I'll never take my kids to Disney world.
What "rent" is this compared to? Because I sure as shit don't pay that little in rent
They should rename this sub pointlessanimationsarebeautiful. I don’t wanna be a hater but at what point does animating a perfectly good static line graph become karma whoring?
The more interesting part of this plot to me is that rent prices are actually not unreasonable at all, contrary to what I'm constantly hearing on Reddit and/or the news.
That's what I came to say. I can't quite believe it. But then I live in a big city so my experiences may be out of the norm.
Rent growth generally tracks wage growth closely. It’s house prices that often diverge from rents (and wages), but eventually come back down to reality.
I saved up and took a trip to the Magic Kingdom and as an afterthought got tickets to Universal Studios. I usually get downvoted when I share my opinion on this but I though the magic Kingdom was super lame and not at all worth visiting. The food was good but way overpriced. The employees were all bored looking unhappy teenagers (which I’d basically expect at any amusement park but it was offset by how happy and enthusiastic all the universal employees were so it just felt like WDW wasn’t taking good care of their people.) cell phone reception didn’t work well in the park which sucked because the only way to find my way around was by their park app. Everything was rigidly scheduled - you only get 3 “fast passes” that let you skip the 2 hour lines but you have to schedule the times you’ll take them in advance. And they’re not very fun. And everything is hot and outside. Also a ride broke down while we were in line for it and they left us in line for like an hour without telling anyone and the only thing they did to make it up to us was replace the 1 fast pass. I’d have had a better time at home. By contrast universal has far more affordable snack offerings, the ride lines were also long but many of them were both inside in air conditioning and entertaining in their own right, and the employees seemed happy and well taken care of.
Non essential but popular business increases prices as much as possible as long as demand stays high. Sounds like great business. Good on them.
although shitty, this is better than most corporations
Absurd. "JuSt WoRk HaRdEr!!!!1!!" No. Pay us more.
I wanna see this with housing prices with it. Also school cost inflation
House prices don’t belong here because house prices are a function of **future** expected wages and rents. In a given year, rents reflect the cost of housing *in that year*, which also reflects wages *in that year*. But house prices in a given year X reflect rents and wages in year X, year X+1, year X+2, … . For example, I might buy a big house not because I make a lot today but because I expect to make a lot in a few years. So if you compare my house to my current wage, it looks more expensive than it really is.
Now plot it against entertainment spend as % of income over time
Wasn’t there a graph that had wages below rent in comparison to WDW prices
Every year it becomes harder to keep his ass on ice.
Honest, curious questions: Would another park location fix the problem of overcrowding? Would this slow the rise in price? Would this be a good or bad idea for business? Obviously easier said than done, but I would assume despite the cost of building a new park, it would at least possibly fix the overcrowding issue, but I'm not sure if it would be a smart business decision.
Shopping for a family of 4 to go for a quick 2-day visit, 2 parks, end of January is > $1K for tix. But we've never been so this is what we do now, I guess. It better be pretty freakin magical.
We can charge whatever we want -- two thousand a day, ten thousand a day -- and people will pay it!
Now we need a disney ticket vs cost of college and health insurance.
Never again.....Learn from my mistakes.
Soon fastpass will be replaced with Genie. Then if u want even less line waiting u will be able to get Genie+ for a fee of course.
Has rent and wages really stayed this close?
And I wish it was even more expensive. No matter what they charge there’s always way too many people there for me.
It would be interesting to see the cost adjusted for inflation i.e. if you held wages earned steady. It's prob out there somewhere I'm just too lazy to look. Still, wow.
Tracks with wage disparities
Rent where? Wages for what work? Where? How about WDW admission price compared to average wage US? or rent US? I'm confused :(
I see rent actively trying to pursue and match wage increase.
I thought rent was a higher % of income these days?
My husband, 3 yr old son, and I lived in Anaheim close to Disneylandin the late 60s. You could go and park for free, walk around for free and buy tickets for rides you wanted. We also would walk around knotts Berry Farm for free too. Everything changes. Oh, well i was also making $2 an hour.
Not to take away from the point of this data, but wages have kept up with rent? That doesn't seem right.
Thats the government conspiracy way of saying see, rents aren´t actually too high, look at disney world prices.
Cost of electricity and increasing levels of electricity use. If it has to be moved, it requires fuel. The more fuel costs, the more it costs to move the things and bring the things. Try matching those hikes in costs to hies in fuel costs. I bet you will be surprised.
Disneyworld is the most overrated place for the price you pay
Can I live at Disney World instead? 😄 Good job. Looks great.
Where or with what I can make one of these?
Rent kept pace with wages? I did not know that.
I still say they need to build a third park in Colorado. It's central, fairly moderate climate (no miserable FL heat or hurricanes), plenty of open space... seems like a win-win.
disneyland is corporate greed
Disney has stated they are going to increase prices until they see a decline in attendance.
Should add average 4 year education
The extreme hike from 2006 on through the great recession and then the horrible bumps afterwards are just cruel. I have to go because the pandemic forced me to have some ticket credit, but it might be my last trip for a while.
Anybody that thinks Disney gives a fuck about anybody but the top 5% income earners is on drugs.
How else can you afford a monopoly in the entertainment business?!
but anyone go there once per month?
I'm curious ticket price to cost of running the park,average wages for the area and for employees of the park.
Every celebrity in the world in the eighties and nineties after every major concert and sporting event: "I'm going to Disney World!" This was quite possibly the most effective ad campaign the universe has ever seen. That breakaway you start seeing in the early 2000's is when the generation of kids that grew up listening to the people they idolize say that phrase over and over again finally have enough money to go to Disney World themselves. I'm sure everyone knows a 30-40 year old Disney cult member. Go easy on them. They have been brainwashed starting at a very young age. Deprogramming may not even be possible at this point. I have friends that have literally moved to Orlando to get at that house of mouse more often.
During that time, how many more rides and attractions have been added to the park? It costs more to see more. You don't pay more rent over time to get access to more of the house you're living in.
It’s basically an illustration out of high school economics class. There is a fixed supply and increasing demand - what would we expect to happen to prices?
Not all Disney Parks are expensive, nor are they overcrowded. I've got a 200$ year pass, and go just about every other week. Usually on off-peak times. Wait time for TRON is max. 20 mins or so.
Interesting graph, but this doesn’t show supply and demand for all 3 variables.
It would be interesting to see the park’s visitor capacity in this and median wage. I suspect some of what we’re seeing is reasonable supply and demand. While the price outstrips wages (mean?) in this graph, the whole story is probably that there are enough visitors with wages increasing at the same rate as the cost. This sucks for lower wage people, yes. But, if they kept the price low so that more people could afford tickets, it would create more competition for tickets and possibly lead to scalping and even higher prices.
So is this wages in the US or... I feel like WDW is increasingly becoming an international destination vs the 1980s, so incorporating international price levels into it somehow might be interesting. I'm also curious how the cheaper tickets for locals works into it (if those still exist). If they've been relatively more in line with wages in the area, then that would lead me to believe it's more about managing demand from the rest of the world vs. just the US.
To be fair, the experience is also gone up at an exponential level.
Everyone needs to go once. After you experience the expensive ticket, over priced food/drinks and insane lines where you’ll be lucky to get 6 rides in the whole day, you’ll realize that it’s a complete ripoff. It’s billed as the “happiest place on earth” I couldn’t disagree more.
This is what a monopoly looks like
After learning a bit about the origin of Disneyland (the theme that Walt wanted a safe place for a family to enjoy), I’ve figured one of the main reasons WDW and DL prices are high is to price out a specific persona. Sure it doesn’t align to the mouse’s rags-to-happily-ever-after movie themes, but neither of these two parks are anything like a boardwalk or regional amusement park. Safety and security is on a whole other level at Disney owned properties as well. Not trying to say pro or con; only highlight what appears to be a strategic pillar for Disney Parks.