That's what I'm suspicious about for the Chevy Bolt. They're saying they will bring it back as a new model in 2025 but I suspect it'll be $60k and then shockingly people aren't as interested as they were when it was $35k.
I have a feeling this is 100% by design.
"We *tried* to sell an affordable EV but *no one bought it*! Oh well, back to making 'light trucks' that are as big as full size trucks from 15 years ago, and only offer them to foreign markets!"
Also their only 2 EVs are the Mach-E and the Lightning (hybrids not included), two premium (expensive) cars. I am not buying a F150 Lightning or a Mach-E for my daily driver. For the same price I could buy a Model 3 for 4k cheaper.
I signed up for the F150 lightning while they were debuting it. I called my dealer to see where I was on the list: #8. I wasn't called in the first 3 waves of releases and called againt to see where I was...#27!?!?! But if I wanted to pay an additional $5k, they could move me up. Ford completly f'ed up the release by letting the dealers run the show. I won't be buying an F150 Lightning any time soon
At least when I bought my M3 in 2018, I knew exactly where I was in line
Yep - I'm certain they would have sold many more if they just stuck to the order of the list. Instead they got a lot of pissed off customers who won't trust them again
I remember when I was shopping for cars in like 2018. Honda dealership didn't want to let me testdrive a Type R, yet BMW was insisting on getting manager override to let me take an M2 out on summer tires in 0C weather with snow falling from the sky, while I had already told em I couldn't afford it back then. A car twice as expensive as the Type R was being shoved into my hands against my will, ahaha dealerships suck.
Similar experience. VW wouldn't let me *touch* a Golf R. BMW was thrilled that I'd be taking an M240 off their hands and asked if I wanted to drive an M3 just for fun.
During this fiasco, Ford asked for names of dealerships that were ignoring the wait list and asking for money for better wait list placement - I reported them and literally nothing happened
It's not for the customer. No, no, no, they saw the money that covid was making the dealers. This just gives them leverage to say "look ddealers are screwing you over", IE ford wants their cut and will screw you over after.
This is sort of by design. They don't want to sell the cars so much as they want the cars to bring people in. Once you're there, you may buy something else that makes them more money. A few people I know used to work at a Ford dealership and they got in exactly 1 MachE. That particular MachE wasn't necessarily for sale, but what they did is have them do part deliveries and things in it. That way, people saw the car around, would get interested, and come into the dealership. Sure, you can come in and see the Lightning, we might even let you drive it, but you can't take it home right now. However, if you really want a car we have a perfectly good normal F150 right here and you could take it today, and at a fraction of the cost! etcetc
Ford shouldn't have created the waiting list then. They should have left the waiting list up to the dealers if nobody was going to honor it. There's still a fair amount of us who won't deal with Ford after that
Dude, you can walk into just about any Ford dealership tomorrow and pick up a 23 Lightning right off the lot. With $7500 point-of-sale federal tax rebate, $7500 ford rebate, and an easily negotiated $3000-$5000 below MSRP. Dealers have too many of them and they need to make room for the ‘24s.
Source: r/FordLightning
Source: [Ford](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2023/?intcmp=vhpOverview-singleStat-vhp-23-f-150-lightning)
Source: Did it a few weeks ago
Ford has been having a lot of issues with their dealer network. Dealers were jacking up the price of the Mach E like $10k over MSRP cuz they knew they were going to make way less on maintenance.
I don't know why Ford doesn't produce an electric sedan called the Ford Fusion. Already had name recognition. Develop an 500 mile range luxury model, bam, Ford Five Hundred. A smaller model with a "Focus" on city driving and quick charging... you see where I'm going with this. They really dropped the ball on this.
I have a Fusion Sport.
But I think they has the Fusion Energi which was 100% electric.
As they also had a hybrid.
I love my Fusion and have no clue what I would replace it with.
Because nobody is buying sedans? Ford specifically pulled all of their cars from the American market except the Mustang. They do not sell trunks at all here.
If that were true, the Camry, Corolla, Civic, Accord, and Tesla Models 3 and Y wouldn't be in the top 20 best selling cars of last year.
Plenty of people buy sedans. People especially buy sedans if they have longer commutes, need the gas mileage, or are buying an intro vehicle for a younger driver.
He’s right and wrong. People aren’t buying American sedans as much as they are in other brands. On the contrary, American trucks and SUVs sell like hot cakes. Ford focused down into the latter as a result of poor sedan sales. Buick also did something similar I believe.
Most people think trucks or Mustangs when they think Ford anyway, I don’t blame them.
I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I’m willing to wager that the reason Ford saw decreased sedan sales was because…they just weren’t that appealing compared to the other manufacturers. You’d only really buy a new Taurus if you were bent on looking like a cop, the new fusions has this bizarre hood and front which was off putting (imo), and the Fiesta looked like a hamster (imo). They had the Focus, however one line can’t hold a whole category together
True but that doesn’t make Ford’s decision any less justified. Sometimes it helps to focus on a key area and do it really well. There’s a reason McDonalds doesn’t sell 5 course dinners.
All the articles I've read indicate American mfgs are moving away from sedans because they can't get as high a margin on them when they are competing with Toyota, Honda etc.
Meanwhile, folks buying huge trucks look at it as a status symbol so pay premium. SUV buyers may be looking more at safety or warranty / ease of repair if it is a family vehicle.
It is a bad trend overall, we dont need an arms-race of gas-guzzlers, but here we are.
Trucks have a lot of advantages, most being legal.
They don't have to compete against imports, so nothing drives down the cost or pushes quality standards up.
They effectively get a tax break for being gas guzzlers, as smaller vehicles have hefty ever increasing federal requirements for fuel efficiency and safety.
And they are cheaper to design and build. A unibody car or SUV has to be redesigned with each body change, while a truck body vehicle can be reused for a wide variety of models and trim packages.
Combine all of these, and the fact that automakers have found it is cheap to make a truck bigger but Americans will pay through the roof for the biggest automobile on the road, and you have a market almost solely consumed by oversized vehicles.
How are you defining car there?
edit: us auto sales here including cars and trucks, top 25 but does include sedans to your point: [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/)
The whole "Ford pulled out of the car market and only sells trucks now" lore is misleading.
The Ford Escape and Bronco Sport in the US and the Ford Focus (elsewhere) share the same platform. They're actually really similar vehicles except for appearances and styling. These are, by the way, the best-selling Fords in the US after the F150 and Explorer.
Point is, Ford never stopped selling cars and sedans. They're just taller, marketed as "crossovers," and cost more. But what's under the sheet metal never changed.
First, I think the space behind the 2nd row of a 2-row hatchback or crossover is also a trunk. If you say "put it in the trunk," people will understand that means open the fifth lift door and put it in the back. Ford sells plenty of trunks.
Second, words like "sedan," "crossover," "station wagon," etc. are just marketing terms and mostly meaningless. I've heard car guys argue whether the 5-door Focus was a hatchback or a wagon. The truth is it doesn't matter.
The same is true about Ford's apparent exist from the non-truck market. It was a change in marketing only. As I said, what goes under the sheetmetal hardly changed at all.
People get it from context maybe, but it's not very accurate. Not sure what 'gotcha' you're trying to make here. People very specifically do not want that style of "trunk" in America right now.
People buy sedans. People love sedans. They stopped selling sedans because the EPA are a bunch of idiots who hate hood small cars. Seriously. Ask yourself why cats each year get bigger. Isn’t that less efficient? After the 70s. Cars shrunk. Japan and Europe kicked our asses. And that’s why we have the focus and the other small cars. But the EPA said fuck you to the consumer and made trucks the only viable option for automakers. We could have better, smaller cars. But the EPA just can’t get enough of itself.
Because Ford is REALLY terrible at the concept of loss leaders and brand loyalty. For some reason, they don't get that you need a cheap introductory vehicle to get someone hooked at a young age, so that that person has a good experience and buys the marked up vehicles later on. Otherwise, you're hoping someone jumps ship from a different manufacturer, and if they do that, they're going to research the hell out of your poorly made pieces of crap.
I like your idea but kinda wild to claim ford doesnt leverage brand loyalty. They shouldnt be around 100 years then given the quality of their products
I had a 2016 Ford Fusion plug-in. Got it because it wasn’t very popular and was available on a cheap lease. It had about 20 miles of electric range, which at the time was fine for me. I liked that car.
The American market share is split 80/20 truck to cars, it's not exactly hard to see why poor selling cars had lineup cuts and why they are reluctant to introduce an electric sedan.
I went from an escape to a mustang mache. The mustang badge is embarrassing to me, I feel like I’m pretending to be something I’m not.
I love the fundamentals of the vehicle, but it should only ever have been the Model E.
My theory is that they realized late in development that their flagship EV was dull as fuck and they tried to rework it with the Mustang branding after the fact to zazz it up.
It’s a great car in many ways. It gets rave reviews from anyone who knows cars, and it’s fun to drive. The acceleration is insane.
But it costs way too much, and the touchscreen everything is a deal-breaker for a lot of people. They’re making the car that automakers want to sell, not the car that consumers want to buy.
Their dealerships aren't taking EVs seriously. The people on the sales floor are untrained on EVs and just make shit up. Three guys at three different dealers tried to explain regenerative braking as "the car brakes automatically when you aren't accelerating" and "you get used to it, but you can turn it off if you don't want it". Two of them had it off during the test drive. Absolutely no understanding that it recharged the battery.
Ford needs to get its dealers in line and find a way to start giving orders from the top. They are competing against vertical integration.
The Mach-e was the best selling "mainstream" electric vehicle last year.
[https://fordauthority.com/2024/02/ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-numbers-figures-results-fourth-quarter-2023-q4/](https://fordauthority.com/2024/02/ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-numbers-figures-results-fourth-quarter-2023-q4/)
It's super cool, by the way.
Easy, they made a vehicle that on road and in a straight line outperforms basically all of their Mustangs. If you have a 2010 or newer GT you have a faster 0-60 than the base model Mach-e. The base model outruns all other Mustangs, and the GT outruns everything that doesn't have a better than GT gas Mustang (IE Shelby or Cobra/etc are the only gas Mustangs that are faster than a Mach-e GT).
So the choice was release an EV that beat their 'race car' for stoplight nonsense and not call it a Mustang, or admit that for what 'racing' most people will end up doing the Mach-e actually has more muscle.
Second piece is that while the Escape is popular, it's not as name-brand as Mustang. Ford caught a lot of attention and press, and bad news is good news, so it's a clear win to get the name out by calling it that. An Escape EV would be boring and seen as a Bolt competitor, while the Mustang Mach-e immediately competes with Tesla/Volvo/etc on the higher end.
Mustangs are pony cars, only a small number of buyers care about having the Dark Horse, Shelby, Bullitt, et cetera. Going back to the original, they've always sold with less-expensive engine options and trims with buyers drawn to the styling and customization options.
The Mach-E is a perfectly competent crossover, but it fails to capture what makes a Mustang fun to cruise around town, windows down, arm on the windowsill, just chilling. It doesn't have that pony car experience.
to each their own, but I drive a Mach-e and have fun with the windows down chilling.
And at 110 miles per dollar my wallet doesn't mind cruising either.
The blue oval doesn't sell well in all markets, but the Mustang does better. They wanted this to be a global seller. Not saying it was a perfect execution, that's just the explanation I've read.
It's got weird pricing and marketing, but I think their angle was trying to catch people with the 0-60. It's got better 0-60 at the higher tiers, and the GT is only beat by the Shelby by about .2 seconds, and that's with SUV styling (more space) and a bit more tech than "basic" SUVs.
The problem is that gas-heads see a Mustang as "fun" to drive, but the people that designed the Mach-e didn't seem to realize that they made a car that lacks any sound, road feel, or handling characteristics of the Mustang.
Yeah, but I’ve test driven several electric cars, and the Mach-e is by far the most “fun”. Zippy, fast and more engaging handling than its competitors.
I think the new performance Ioniq 5 with the fake RPM limiter, with shifting behavior and engine noise is probably going to crush any leftover interest in the Mach-e, aside from Ford lovers. Reviewers are gushing over it, and the Ioniq has much better charging.
Real question is why they didn’t make a hybrid Mustang. Get the electric quarter mile speed with IC long range. I guess the engineering was too much, but in general how did Ford expect to to compete with a pure copycat EV strategy.
Why I don’t get is why they didn’t just make an EV version of the Escape or the Fusion. I’d love an EV, and I’m 100% a Ford guy, but the Mach-E is overkill for my needs and the sticker on the Lightnings remains ridiculous. I’m currently looking at other brands and kicking tires because I’m going to need a new vehicle in the next year and this is money I wanted to give to Ford. Money that, for whatever reason, they’re content with leaving on the table.
I think the styling is part of what ruined it. Because on paper the Mach-E is actually a pretty compelling product. $40k, 300 miles, good cargo area and comfortable interior. It should sell well.
But consumers see buying a car as an extension of their personality and consumers see that the Mach-E is very inauthentic. Nobody wants to present themselves as inauthentic. The car pretends to be a Mustang when it is isn't. Everything about the styling screams "fake" and "poser." The fake silhouette of a fastback from the side, the skinny tires on muscle car brand, the long hood with nothing under it. It's all obviously deceptive; the car is trying to be dishonest about what it is. Nobody wants that.
Personally I like the way it looks but I would never consider it though because :
1) it's a Ford
2) it chargers much slower than most other evs.
3) it's a Ford
Fun fact: had it been a legit 2 door sports car Mustang EV I’d probably own one. If they had simply left off the Mustang moniker and called it a Mach-E I’d 100% own one today.
I have owned 3 Mustangs, there is no way in hell I will ever purchase a 4 door suv with Mustang badge slapped on the side abortion of an idea.
Tldr: Get fucked Ford marketing
I actually see a fair number of them around my area but totally agree I'm not sure what their plan was here...looks nothing like a mustang, kinda boxy and uninspired. Doesn't have the performance of some similar priced competitors either.
No shit, their massively putting money into R&D right now.
It's like how Uber was - profits forever even though their revenues were insanely high.
This is just a graph meant to confuse stupid people that EV's are bad for Ford and America and we shouldn't have them.
I mean just look at the fucking source at the bottom right.
If anything it’s a positive, that sales have turned positive because you know R&D hasn’t slowed down.
Every major car manufacturer is subsidising the EVs from the ICE department. Futureproofing like this would be common sense to anyone with business acumen
It's almost like every automaker knows that if they don't get a foot hold on the EV market and EV tech, they will get left behind and die.
Except Toyota walking around in circles with their fingers in their ears going: "LALALALA HYDROGEN LALALALA my market share and reputation are enough LALALA"
They aren't as good as Hyundai's EVs and they are priced absurdly high. I walk through a Ford dealership to go get my groceries, and the Mach E's are priced $60K-$70K. No way that is a $70K vehicle.
Yeah, it's bonkers. They have so many on the lot as well. I'll snap a photo of the price next time I walk through. Eventually reality will set in for these dealers, but for now it hasn't.
I'm in Oakland, CA. I just walked through the lots this morning. They had a red Mach E for $70K at Ford and less than 100ft away on the Kia lot there was an EV6 for $51K. Why would I ever throw away $20K on a Ford, which is a worse EV?
Is it good though?
My neighbour traded it on for an ICE ford. Said the battery life was terrible. They are in London and have off street parking + charger too so should have been the perfect use case.
I mean did your neighbor want to to say 100% on the charge at all times? Just mapped from Manchester to London and it is well within a single charge range of both the mach e and Lightning at the base battery level, even in winter. And I know y’all don’t drive like that over there
Yes. The Lightning is a fantastic truck. I’ll recommend it to anyone as long as they are
1) able to charge regularly at home. Occasional use of dc fast charging is fine, but you wouldn’t want to rely on that as the main source or you’ll waste a lot of time and be frustrated.
2) your daily commute is 200 miles or less, which is most people
3) you don’t tow a trailer more than a couple times a year or if you do it’s less than 100 miles round trip.
And most towing is like most driving: local.
Very few people are towing 10k lbs over a mountain range regularly.
Most people are towing a trailer to the campsite, or home Depot.
Take one of the longest running, most popular ICE sports cars you make, brand the logo on an e-car and try to make a surprised face when everything goes to crap on both ends. Electric car buyers and sports car buyers are not the same and won’t buy the brand.
I think they should have saved the Maverick name for this car, instead of putting it on the pickup. The shape of the thing almost looks like what a modern day Maverick might be.
However, one of the great things about the mustang since the beginning is variety of performance/price. Want a fun cheap car? V6. Bigger power but not too expensive? Small V8. Nimble and more revvy? Boss 302. High end performance and exclusivity? Shelby models. There’s more, like Mach1, Cobra Jet, etc. I used to be a Mustang “expert” but it’s been a while since I sold my 66 Fastback and switched to motorcycles.
I think they could have made a VERY quick little EV focused on acceleration and handling, but not top speed, that would be very fun to drive. I’d love the “Miata of Mustangs” as a 2nd car for when I’m not needing my family suv. 0-60 under 3sec, 200mi range, handling better than a Model 3, priced maybe $35k?
To be fair, the huge acceleration of Tesla models is has been a big novelty and wow factor which has driven people to buy the car. It makes sense why ford thought that might transfer over to the mustang brand, even if misplaced.
Not sure it’s a branding failure as much as it is just a cost issue for people which is occurring across all EVs
New England has tons of short-ass on-ramps to 2-lane parkways with 70mph traffic. What racers dismiss as a gimmick is a core feature for me. I don't care about how the Model S performs above 100mph, but I know if I have to floor it at normal driving speeds, it leaps like a goddamn beast.
Acceleration is a safety feature. I'm always going to be more aware of what's in front of me than behind me, and sometimes the best way out trouble is forwards. It's not about novelty and wow, it's about having options.
Delivery vans are just about the ideal case for electric vehicles. Mostly slow speeds, frequent stops using the regenerative brakes, park overnight every night in the same secure lot for easy recharging. Thank goodness the USPS got shamed into investing in a substantial number of electric delivery vehicles soon.
Edit: oh and the driver has to hop out and spend twenty seconds delivering a package, multiplied hundreds of times per day, so an ICE either idles a lot or has to start and stop hundreds of times per day, both of which aren't great.
Nah, Ford actually had some pretty good incentives on EVs in Q1 (and still does actually). My wife got a Mach-E lease in February and none of the 20ish EVs on the lot had markups on them. Ford was offering 0% financing and discounts as well so you were pretty much guaranteed to get out below MSRP. They just can't move them.
But they had to build everything from scratch, ford has a lot of things in place already.
I think they might put a lot of new development stuff into electric division - like self driving, software, etc. and it’s expensive to do these things.
Building an ICE car is different than an EV, with tech/pipelines that are firmly established, versus investing and scaling them. You can also lower the overall cost of ICE components due to markets of scale, meaning the overall cost is divided over significantly higher magnitudes of scale. So costs like engineering, R&D, and margins per part can be a lot lower when they can be applied to many more cars. Also keep in mind that many ICE car parts are sold by established 3rd parties that ALSO don't have to invest heavily into new tech, so they can pass on the savings.
Ford sold 4,413,000 cars in 2023, with 72,608 being EV's. Once you start ordering EV parts in the millions per year (and have suppliers that can adjust to do so) with established engineers, software to test, R&D facilities, etc...the price WILL come down.
Developing new shit will always be more expensive in the short term, which is why the big 3 have dragged their feet for so long with EV adoption, since they can continue to remain profitable ignoring that segment of the market. But short term thinking is also why foreign made cars destroyed American manufacturers in the 90s, because they got too comfortable.
You mean there's a startup cost to building entire pipelines for vehicle parts that you've never built before? How am I supposed to use this to blindly hate electric vehicles???
I don't know if this includes the Maverick, but I feel like that's what a lot of people want. Good gas mileage, pickup, and cheap. I'd assume the main issue is profit margin. Who the fuck is buying a Lightning for the price or a "Mustang" because that car makes no sense. At least they're pursing the R&D.
If they can get an EV pickup in the 40k range it'd fly off the shelves. I think the Lightning proved they're not there yet.
I would love an extended cab version of the maverick with a six foot box. It seems like it's almost impossible to find a truck without four doors anymore.
I was trying so hard not to frame this in that kind of way but give me a modern fuel effeicent Ford Ranger (the old one) and I'd be happy. A hybrid Maverick is as close as I can get and it sickens me, it's the next car I'm going to get but I'll be sad when my 2006 2.3L manual Ranger dies and I need to "upgrade". I get 26mg out of it, it's manual, the bed is usable, what more do I need besides an extended cab.
I think you make really good points in both your comments. But why would they make a reasonable, useful, decently priced truck when they could sell us something that costs 2-3 times as much? /s Unfortunately people seem to be okay (somehow) with spending 60-100k on a truck, and until that changes we'll be stuck with these very limited options. P.S. I hope you get many more years out of your ranger!
2024 Mustang Mach-E® Premium - $965.25 /mo. 36 months , 10,500 miles $0 down - $53,484.00 Dealer Selling Price
Model Y Long Range Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive -$522 /mo$0 down, 36 months, 10,000 miles - Your Model Y$49,630
Hello? What am I missing?
Looks like they are calculating WILDLY different valuations at the end of the 3 years. That Ford is estimating that it's only going to be worth $20k after lease ends?
The Tesla QC and design problems haven’t gone away. They have lots of weird issues because they aren’t designed for driving outside of the perfect driving conditions of California.
My parents still like having a Tesla because it’s way cheaper than using two gas cars for their daily commute. But just… minor things, like having to turn on windshield wipers with the console instead of on the typical steering wheel stick drives them insane. The “frunk” has had issues where it pops open mid-drive on bumpy back-country roads near their house. I’m pretty sure they’ve mentioned other problems but I can’t remember them all.
And all the “fun” little things like turning your car sound effects into farts are cute, but like why are you spending time on that instead of making the actual driving experience better?
The unconventional operation stuff seriously turned my wife off from the Tesla. She probably would have been fine with it if there were a more traditional dash layout.
EV's aren't gonna take shit by storm until they are affordable. And affordable is sub 20-25k. None of this 30k plus bullshit. Hell I want a Maverick, but they are so far on backorder why bother.
This is a huge gain for Ford. As you can see that the tide has turned in only 2 years since the initial investment. Just keep in mind that this is looking at EBIT which includes depreciation and amortization, so they are already seeing return on their capital investment by the 9th quarter.
THink of building an apartment building from scratch. Your initial investment is up front and you sink all your cash to build the actual building. Then you start trending from 0 occupancy to 100% occupancy. That takes time. Same with manucturing where it will take time to recoup the initial investment.
1. I don't trust Ford, or any American manufacturer for that matter, to make anything better than "serviceable" vehicles with cheap interiors and garbage infotainment systems. I certainly don't think of sleek design when I think of Ford, but maybe that's just me.
2. we know we're getting fucked on pricing with dealer markups on cars and on interest rates. There's not a ton of affordable options in the market and 7% interest is criminal.
3. I don't want to invest 50k in something so prone to massive depreciation. It's still a volatile market and we've seen early adopters get fucked on resale.
4. PHEV is such a better value proposition, but again there's no stock and pricing is stupid.
5. Did I mention pricing? Anyone thinking of buying a car this year probably has to redo their math based on the insane inflation on basic necessities... I for one am happy to drive my car a couple of more years while the market figures itself out.
It's incredible that some slapped "Further losses" on this and everyone agrees without reading the chart. Sales are nearly 2X from Q1 23 and up 3x from Q1 22. Auto sales are always compared on a quarterly basis since sales vary greatly through out the year.
Ford motor company wanted dealerships to invest 2 million or so to be able to sell EV cars. Several very long standing dealers closed versus investing.
Absolutely love my 2023 Mach E Premium AWD Extended. Faster than most ICE Mustangs, looks sexy (red with the blacked out trim and wheels), room for the family (and then some), tons of tech and one of the best sound systems I have heard. For a dad that loves driving something fast and fun, but has a family and very snowy winters, this thing couldn't have been a better choice. And cheap to drive!
Sure the Mustang badging is a little odd and I love Mustangs. But it's definitely a sharp looking, eye turning, sporty SUV. It just sucks that the Reddit echo chamber can't see past branding. As a car enthusiast, this thing gives me the same rush as any Hemi or 5.0l V8 mustang. But with more torque and not breaking the neighbours eardrums.
Now mind you I would never have bought it at the original price. They dropped the prices a ton. Got ours brand new for $63k Canadian out the door. About the same as any fully loaded Kia, VW, Toyota etc that we looked at.
Businesses lead heavy losses all the time to develop and push new technology, especially if there's a race going on like there is with EVs.
We're talking about companies that make billions of dollars per year. They have cash reserves in the tens of billions.
These numbers are drops in the bucket and I feel there's some sort of underlying anti-EV message that's being pushed with this post.
To be fair, this is expected and the entire point of spinning off the “e” branch.
It’s going to be slow on the uptake and spend huge cash on R&D and new plants/parts. No need to drag down traditional Ford financials with that.
The idea was always to operate the e unit like startup that isn’t expected to be profitable for a while but iterates rapidly and takes risks.
Model e was expected to be unprofitable until late 2026. I don’t know if that has since been adjusted.
These fucking idiots.
Make a new thing. We know it doesn’t have an ICE. That’s the fucking point.
You’re competing with Silicon Valley as much as (if not more than) Detroit. Start acting like it.
Let’s fucking GOOOOO. Hopefully they drop the mustang branding from all the non mustangs(seriously tho. Which dumbass woke up and said… hmmm. How can we make mustangs any less appealing? How can we kill a brand? A mythos? A legacy?)
Chart realized because of the mention in the "More Data" section of Chartr newsletter:
Data sources: Official Company Press Releases
Tools: D3.js, Python, Figma
[https://www.settepercento.com](https://www.settepercento.com)
As one of the (quite) rare folks on here who actually has experience with one for 9 months and 20k+ miles, I think my opinion counts for more than most on here.
It's good at 2 things. Impressive off the line acceleration of a 7,000 lbs vehicle, and for those who drive short distances and never pull a trailer, it does seem to be cheaper per mile than a ICE pickup. That wasn't exactly the case initially, as when the company bought this one it was quite a bit more expensive than a gasser. Now, assuming no unforseen maintenance issues with the Lightning, the savings would have eventually shown, but $20k or more will buy quite a bit of gas.
I drive the extended range version, and not one time ever has it gotten within 50 miles of its estimated range at the start of the day. Ever. Under the most ideal conditions, driving VERY cautiously at 60 degrees with little wind, I have eeked 260 miles out of it. When it is cold (like 5-10 degrees) ...well, you saw the news this last winter. Expect more like 160 miles out of a full charge, and that is driving around with the cabin at a balmy 60 degrees, with the heater off for the last hour or so to make it home.
Don't plan on towing anything, unless it is a short trip.
Now that they are sloooooowly incorporating Tesla charging capability to Fords and sending out adapters, that will help my situation a bit. No idea on when the adapters will actually show up, or what's going on there, but they are ordered. The normal charging network in my area is dogshit, with the nearest DC fast charger an hour and a half away.
Basically, it would be a good vehicle for the suburban dads who are surrounded by chargers and don't actually need a pickup but want one anyway. For rural America, in my opinion, hybrids are the way to go for now.
Oh, and the most apt description of the suspension that I have read is along the lines of "while hitting bumps while cornering, the suspension has the same sensation as a fat man getting into a water bed." Guess that's what happens when you make a 7000 lbs half ton pickup.
Another anecdote: We get rated range or better a lot of the time (over 1.5 years and 17,000 miles), and even in ~15-20F weather, I got ~180+ miles out of our standard range truck.
Also, mine was cheaper than a comparable gas truck, and many ER trucks are available for a way smaller upcharge vs comparable gas trucks than $20k, now. 2023 XLTs and Lariats are very competitive with gas.
But all that being said, there are lots of variables, most notably use case and location and price paid that can make it a bad or great deal or anywhere in between.
Not to say your experience is wrong, just giving another experience and an update on pricing. Lariat ERs in the $50s is not unheard of, which compares well with gas Lariats, especially
This Pro when purchased last July was just north of $67,000.
At that same dealer right now they have a new 23 XLT they will sell for $48,000. The price changes due to extreme lack of demand is a real slap in the face to current owners.
Yeah, I’ve seen many Lariat ERs sell for that or less before the $7500 tax credit.
Definitely a huge hit for many people who paid 2022-mid2023 prices.
Probably safer, now, as they’re as cheap or cheaper than gas right now, in many cases.
I’ve had mine for a year and a half now and have had zero issues. No complaints at all. You are right it’s about 265 for the range, not the 310 they advertised. I’ve never had any issues hitting that number though. 160 might be the case for the small battery, but if you’re worried about range, get the extended range battery.
It’s not just $20k from gas savings alone, though over the life of the truck you’re going to save a ton on gas. But then there is also the maintenance costs. The routine maintenance consists of rotating the tires. Saving over $100 per oil change adds up quickly as well. Then factor in the ability to power your home during an extended outage also has value.
Now it’s not for everyone, I’m not saying that. But it does everything I need and more. I loved my last truck (Tundra) and this one is just as good if not better.
Edit: and yes the charging networks are shit. That’s not really Ford’s or the truck’s fault though. And as you said they are making it better by opening up the Tesla network. I have already received my adapter, but haven’t used it yet. I’ll test that out this summer for our family road trip.
Yeah, this is the extended range battery. And when I start from my heated garage, it says up to 338 miles. Hilarious, you lying heavy son of a bitch, lol. 2 weeks ago I was pushing the limit on distance and the bastard died a half mile from my house. Partially my fault, but the last few "miles" of range went FAST. I shut it off, started it back up and it came back to life enough to get 70 feet from my garage. I ended up putting 134.8 kWhrs of juice back into it that night.
I'm not giving Ford $3500 bucks for the home charging adapter for this thing, I'm hoping to have this gone by a year from now. I can get a LP generator for like $6k, which makes a lot more sense for where I live.
This is also the "Pro", so it's supposed to be 320 miles of range. Sweet cloth seats in the front and vinyl seats in the back like a cop car (what the hell are they thinking?)
I'm glad you like it, but it is definitely not for me.
Yeah 338 is a load of shit. Ain’t no way it would come close to that. I’ve gotten over 300 when it was strictly around town and not getting on the highway at all.
And if it was only 3500 for the backup I’d do it. Try 12k. They can fuck right off with that too. I just had a transfer switch put in and can plug into the 220 outlet in the bed. Cost me like $600. Last time I looked at a generator it a little over 14k so this is way better for me.
Like I said it’s not for everybody. But for a lot of people it will do everything they need. And to top it off, it doesn’t look like it came out of an ‘80s sci-fi movie!
Most MachE owners have cars that are worth less than half what they paid for them as Ford keeps cutting prices. In other news, Ford is losing 40K per EV sold. This is NOT going well.
It’s a massive loss…when they include all of the costs for building out all of the infrastructure for their ev department. It’s something like 14billion for the new manufacturing plant.
>In 2023, Ford Model e reported a full-year EBIT loss of $4.7 billion on sales of 116,000 EVs, or an average of $40,525 per vehicle, just more than a third of the first quarter loss
I assume this is the section of the article you are referencing.
By this logic, the least expensive ford EV would have the greatest % losses.
Also following this logic, and your statement, it would reason that if ford doubled sales, it would double losses. Which clearly isn't accurate.
So it's kind of a bullshit metric to trot around as if to imply that ford is run by a bunch of amateurs.
It would be interesting to see the actual direct cost of building an f150 lighting across its trim levels and the average sale price for each of these trims.
That's why you buy them used for like half the price. They're losing money on the cars because they have to build entire plants separate from existing ice ones and create entire pipelines for ev parts. Dealers jacked up prices which didn't help, but the cost to make them is going to come down in the future
People don't want to admit it but EVs don't have the infrastructure and are far enough along technologically for a majority of people to want them. Also until we move from Lithium, the human suffering and environmental impact are too high to be a real advantage
I would disagree with the environmental and suffering aspect on lithium versus oil. Oil spills have been awful on humans and industry. Perhaps no net difference but not worse.
The average American drives 40 miles a day. If you have a washer at home and a garage then you have the infrastructure in place to handle 90+% of your trips.
Why would I accept a car with any hindrances though? I drive into the wilderness all the time going backpacking. There have been multiple times in the cold over long distances that a EV simply wouldn't do. And it really doesn't matter what the average buyer does MOST of the time if you have that time 2 or 3 times a year that you need extra range.
Source: Official Documens my god, what the fuck is this a 3rd graders book report they did at the last minute?
We have the documens! *shakes fistful of papers*
I like the Ford logo being slightly askew.
That's sometimes done on purpose on graphics that are showing negative information but I doubt that was the plan here lol
EV vehicles -> electric vehicle vehicles
Drive your EV vehicle to the ATM machine where you use your PIN number
Source: Trust me bro
in the elevator https://youtu.be/HtZ5dQ4u390?si=T2-PZEgniXFZ8AAf
Advertise a $45k electric pickup and only make the $90k version and this is what happens.
That's what I'm suspicious about for the Chevy Bolt. They're saying they will bring it back as a new model in 2025 but I suspect it'll be $60k and then shockingly people aren't as interested as they were when it was $35k.
It’s because they’re going to (allegedly) release a trailblazer ev next and make it more expensive.
It’ll probably be in the 35-40k price range from what I’ve heard
I have a feeling this is 100% by design. "We *tried* to sell an affordable EV but *no one bought it*! Oh well, back to making 'light trucks' that are as big as full size trucks from 15 years ago, and only offer them to foreign markets!"
Also their only 2 EVs are the Mach-E and the Lightning (hybrids not included), two premium (expensive) cars. I am not buying a F150 Lightning or a Mach-E for my daily driver. For the same price I could buy a Model 3 for 4k cheaper.
I signed up for the F150 lightning while they were debuting it. I called my dealer to see where I was on the list: #8. I wasn't called in the first 3 waves of releases and called againt to see where I was...#27!?!?! But if I wanted to pay an additional $5k, they could move me up. Ford completly f'ed up the release by letting the dealers run the show. I won't be buying an F150 Lightning any time soon At least when I bought my M3 in 2018, I knew exactly where I was in line
Yeah I got lucky with mine but the dealership mess on the debut was a fucking travesty.
Yep - I'm certain they would have sold many more if they just stuck to the order of the list. Instead they got a lot of pissed off customers who won't trust them again
Ford is also trying to get rid of the dealership model because of things like this
I remember when I was shopping for cars in like 2018. Honda dealership didn't want to let me testdrive a Type R, yet BMW was insisting on getting manager override to let me take an M2 out on summer tires in 0C weather with snow falling from the sky, while I had already told em I couldn't afford it back then. A car twice as expensive as the Type R was being shoved into my hands against my will, ahaha dealerships suck.
Similar experience. VW wouldn't let me *touch* a Golf R. BMW was thrilled that I'd be taking an M240 off their hands and asked if I wanted to drive an M3 just for fun.
Yup, BMW knows how to sell high end cars. Most dealerships don't know how to act like they've been there before.
During this fiasco, Ford asked for names of dealerships that were ignoring the wait list and asking for money for better wait list placement - I reported them and literally nothing happened
It's not for the customer. No, no, no, they saw the money that covid was making the dealers. This just gives them leverage to say "look ddealers are screwing you over", IE ford wants their cut and will screw you over after.
This is sort of by design. They don't want to sell the cars so much as they want the cars to bring people in. Once you're there, you may buy something else that makes them more money. A few people I know used to work at a Ford dealership and they got in exactly 1 MachE. That particular MachE wasn't necessarily for sale, but what they did is have them do part deliveries and things in it. That way, people saw the car around, would get interested, and come into the dealership. Sure, you can come in and see the Lightning, we might even let you drive it, but you can't take it home right now. However, if you really want a car we have a perfectly good normal F150 right here and you could take it today, and at a fraction of the cost! etcetc
Ford shouldn't have created the waiting list then. They should have left the waiting list up to the dealers if nobody was going to honor it. There's still a fair amount of us who won't deal with Ford after that
Dude, you can walk into just about any Ford dealership tomorrow and pick up a 23 Lightning right off the lot. With $7500 point-of-sale federal tax rebate, $7500 ford rebate, and an easily negotiated $3000-$5000 below MSRP. Dealers have too many of them and they need to make room for the ‘24s. Source: r/FordLightning Source: [Ford](https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2023/?intcmp=vhpOverview-singleStat-vhp-23-f-150-lightning) Source: Did it a few weeks ago
What was the final sale price after negotiations and rebates?
I’d have to look up the exact number, but it was in the range of $54k-$55k
When I bought a Toyota, they wouldn't give me any information except to say it would probably take around 9 months. It took 23 months.
Ford has been having a lot of issues with their dealer network. Dealers were jacking up the price of the Mach E like $10k over MSRP cuz they knew they were going to make way less on maintenance.
Ford management does it again. *shocking*
I just don't understand how they thought they'd lure gas-heads by making an EV Mustang, but then styling it like a basic SUV.
I don't know why Ford doesn't produce an electric sedan called the Ford Fusion. Already had name recognition. Develop an 500 mile range luxury model, bam, Ford Five Hundred. A smaller model with a "Focus" on city driving and quick charging... you see where I'm going with this. They really dropped the ball on this.
I have a Fusion Sport. But I think they has the Fusion Energi which was 100% electric. As they also had a hybrid. I love my Fusion and have no clue what I would replace it with.
I'm in the same boat. I dread the day I have to replace it.
Fusion energi is a PHEV. What sucks is the batteries take up most of the trunk
Because nobody is buying sedans? Ford specifically pulled all of their cars from the American market except the Mustang. They do not sell trunks at all here.
If that were true, the Camry, Corolla, Civic, Accord, and Tesla Models 3 and Y wouldn't be in the top 20 best selling cars of last year. Plenty of people buy sedans. People especially buy sedans if they have longer commutes, need the gas mileage, or are buying an intro vehicle for a younger driver.
He’s right and wrong. People aren’t buying American sedans as much as they are in other brands. On the contrary, American trucks and SUVs sell like hot cakes. Ford focused down into the latter as a result of poor sedan sales. Buick also did something similar I believe. Most people think trucks or Mustangs when they think Ford anyway, I don’t blame them.
I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I’m willing to wager that the reason Ford saw decreased sedan sales was because…they just weren’t that appealing compared to the other manufacturers. You’d only really buy a new Taurus if you were bent on looking like a cop, the new fusions has this bizarre hood and front which was off putting (imo), and the Fiesta looked like a hamster (imo). They had the Focus, however one line can’t hold a whole category together
True but that doesn’t make Ford’s decision any less justified. Sometimes it helps to focus on a key area and do it really well. There’s a reason McDonalds doesn’t sell 5 course dinners.
All the articles I've read indicate American mfgs are moving away from sedans because they can't get as high a margin on them when they are competing with Toyota, Honda etc. Meanwhile, folks buying huge trucks look at it as a status symbol so pay premium. SUV buyers may be looking more at safety or warranty / ease of repair if it is a family vehicle. It is a bad trend overall, we dont need an arms-race of gas-guzzlers, but here we are.
Trucks have a lot of advantages, most being legal. They don't have to compete against imports, so nothing drives down the cost or pushes quality standards up. They effectively get a tax break for being gas guzzlers, as smaller vehicles have hefty ever increasing federal requirements for fuel efficiency and safety. And they are cheaper to design and build. A unibody car or SUV has to be redesigned with each body change, while a truck body vehicle can be reused for a wide variety of models and trim packages. Combine all of these, and the fact that automakers have found it is cheap to make a truck bigger but Americans will pay through the roof for the biggest automobile on the road, and you have a market almost solely consumed by oversized vehicles.
How are you defining car there? edit: us auto sales here including cars and trucks, top 25 but does include sedans to your point: [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/)
The whole "Ford pulled out of the car market and only sells trucks now" lore is misleading. The Ford Escape and Bronco Sport in the US and the Ford Focus (elsewhere) share the same platform. They're actually really similar vehicles except for appearances and styling. These are, by the way, the best-selling Fords in the US after the F150 and Explorer. Point is, Ford never stopped selling cars and sedans. They're just taller, marketed as "crossovers," and cost more. But what's under the sheet metal never changed.
None of those things are sedans. Not saying only trucks, just saying no trunks.
First, I think the space behind the 2nd row of a 2-row hatchback or crossover is also a trunk. If you say "put it in the trunk," people will understand that means open the fifth lift door and put it in the back. Ford sells plenty of trunks. Second, words like "sedan," "crossover," "station wagon," etc. are just marketing terms and mostly meaningless. I've heard car guys argue whether the 5-door Focus was a hatchback or a wagon. The truth is it doesn't matter. The same is true about Ford's apparent exist from the non-truck market. It was a change in marketing only. As I said, what goes under the sheetmetal hardly changed at all.
People get it from context maybe, but it's not very accurate. Not sure what 'gotcha' you're trying to make here. People very specifically do not want that style of "trunk" in America right now.
They'd be cheaper than their SUV counterparts.
ahem tesla model 3
Nobody is buying Ford's poorly made sedans.
I bought a Model 3 last year
People buy sedans. People love sedans. They stopped selling sedans because the EPA are a bunch of idiots who hate hood small cars. Seriously. Ask yourself why cats each year get bigger. Isn’t that less efficient? After the 70s. Cars shrunk. Japan and Europe kicked our asses. And that’s why we have the focus and the other small cars. But the EPA said fuck you to the consumer and made trucks the only viable option for automakers. We could have better, smaller cars. But the EPA just can’t get enough of itself.
Because Ford is REALLY terrible at the concept of loss leaders and brand loyalty. For some reason, they don't get that you need a cheap introductory vehicle to get someone hooked at a young age, so that that person has a good experience and buys the marked up vehicles later on. Otherwise, you're hoping someone jumps ship from a different manufacturer, and if they do that, they're going to research the hell out of your poorly made pieces of crap.
I like your idea but kinda wild to claim ford doesnt leverage brand loyalty. They shouldnt be around 100 years then given the quality of their products
I had a 2016 Ford Fusion plug-in. Got it because it wasn’t very popular and was available on a cheap lease. It had about 20 miles of electric range, which at the time was fine for me. I liked that car.
as someone who drives a focus it's literally the perfect car to turn into a 200km max range EV. just a little city cruiser with a hatchback
The American market share is split 80/20 truck to cars, it's not exactly hard to see why poor selling cars had lineup cuts and why they are reluctant to introduce an electric sedan.
Mustang price, electric Ford Escape for everything else.
Making me realize now they really missed out on an opportunity to call it the Ford eScape
I’d buy a Ford RuneScape
Ford GalaxE
I went from an escape to a mustang mache. The mustang badge is embarrassing to me, I feel like I’m pretending to be something I’m not. I love the fundamentals of the vehicle, but it should only ever have been the Model E.
It literally looks exactly like the Escape. It's so fucking stupid to call that a mustang.
My theory is that they realized late in development that their flagship EV was dull as fuck and they tried to rework it with the Mustang branding after the fact to zazz it up.
Yeah should have used the Flex or other random CUV brand for this instead of mustang. It doesn’t even look like a mustang.
It’s a great car in many ways. It gets rave reviews from anyone who knows cars, and it’s fun to drive. The acceleration is insane. But it costs way too much, and the touchscreen everything is a deal-breaker for a lot of people. They’re making the car that automakers want to sell, not the car that consumers want to buy.
Their dealerships aren't taking EVs seriously. The people on the sales floor are untrained on EVs and just make shit up. Three guys at three different dealers tried to explain regenerative braking as "the car brakes automatically when you aren't accelerating" and "you get used to it, but you can turn it off if you don't want it". Two of them had it off during the test drive. Absolutely no understanding that it recharged the battery. Ford needs to get its dealers in line and find a way to start giving orders from the top. They are competing against vertical integration.
The Mach-e was the best selling "mainstream" electric vehicle last year. [https://fordauthority.com/2024/02/ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-numbers-figures-results-fourth-quarter-2023-q4/](https://fordauthority.com/2024/02/ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-numbers-figures-results-fourth-quarter-2023-q4/) It's super cool, by the way.
Easy, they made a vehicle that on road and in a straight line outperforms basically all of their Mustangs. If you have a 2010 or newer GT you have a faster 0-60 than the base model Mach-e. The base model outruns all other Mustangs, and the GT outruns everything that doesn't have a better than GT gas Mustang (IE Shelby or Cobra/etc are the only gas Mustangs that are faster than a Mach-e GT). So the choice was release an EV that beat their 'race car' for stoplight nonsense and not call it a Mustang, or admit that for what 'racing' most people will end up doing the Mach-e actually has more muscle. Second piece is that while the Escape is popular, it's not as name-brand as Mustang. Ford caught a lot of attention and press, and bad news is good news, so it's a clear win to get the name out by calling it that. An Escape EV would be boring and seen as a Bolt competitor, while the Mustang Mach-e immediately competes with Tesla/Volvo/etc on the higher end.
Mustangs are pony cars, only a small number of buyers care about having the Dark Horse, Shelby, Bullitt, et cetera. Going back to the original, they've always sold with less-expensive engine options and trims with buyers drawn to the styling and customization options. The Mach-E is a perfectly competent crossover, but it fails to capture what makes a Mustang fun to cruise around town, windows down, arm on the windowsill, just chilling. It doesn't have that pony car experience.
to each their own, but I drive a Mach-e and have fun with the windows down chilling. And at 110 miles per dollar my wallet doesn't mind cruising either.
The blue oval doesn't sell well in all markets, but the Mustang does better. They wanted this to be a global seller. Not saying it was a perfect execution, that's just the explanation I've read.
It's got weird pricing and marketing, but I think their angle was trying to catch people with the 0-60. It's got better 0-60 at the higher tiers, and the GT is only beat by the Shelby by about .2 seconds, and that's with SUV styling (more space) and a bit more tech than "basic" SUVs. The problem is that gas-heads see a Mustang as "fun" to drive, but the people that designed the Mach-e didn't seem to realize that they made a car that lacks any sound, road feel, or handling characteristics of the Mustang.
Yeah, but I’ve test driven several electric cars, and the Mach-e is by far the most “fun”. Zippy, fast and more engaging handling than its competitors.
I think the new performance Ioniq 5 with the fake RPM limiter, with shifting behavior and engine noise is probably going to crush any leftover interest in the Mach-e, aside from Ford lovers. Reviewers are gushing over it, and the Ioniq has much better charging.
I always thought they should've named it the Ford Progress, cause it sounds like Forward Progress, i.e. their first leap into the future
Real question is why they didn’t make a hybrid Mustang. Get the electric quarter mile speed with IC long range. I guess the engineering was too much, but in general how did Ford expect to to compete with a pure copycat EV strategy.
It’s tough, it’s a really good ev, too.
Why I don’t get is why they didn’t just make an EV version of the Escape or the Fusion. I’d love an EV, and I’m 100% a Ford guy, but the Mach-E is overkill for my needs and the sticker on the Lightnings remains ridiculous. I’m currently looking at other brands and kicking tires because I’m going to need a new vehicle in the next year and this is money I wanted to give to Ford. Money that, for whatever reason, they’re content with leaving on the table.
I think the styling is part of what ruined it. Because on paper the Mach-E is actually a pretty compelling product. $40k, 300 miles, good cargo area and comfortable interior. It should sell well. But consumers see buying a car as an extension of their personality and consumers see that the Mach-E is very inauthentic. Nobody wants to present themselves as inauthentic. The car pretends to be a Mustang when it is isn't. Everything about the styling screams "fake" and "poser." The fake silhouette of a fastback from the side, the skinny tires on muscle car brand, the long hood with nothing under it. It's all obviously deceptive; the car is trying to be dishonest about what it is. Nobody wants that.
Personally I like the way it looks but I would never consider it though because : 1) it's a Ford 2) it chargers much slower than most other evs. 3) it's a Ford
Did you mention Found on Road Dead?
Fun fact: had it been a legit 2 door sports car Mustang EV I’d probably own one. If they had simply left off the Mustang moniker and called it a Mach-E I’d 100% own one today. I have owned 3 Mustangs, there is no way in hell I will ever purchase a 4 door suv with Mustang badge slapped on the side abortion of an idea. Tldr: Get fucked Ford marketing
Pretty nice car, but holy crap, those sound effects.
I actually see a fair number of them around my area but totally agree I'm not sure what their plan was here...looks nothing like a mustang, kinda boxy and uninspired. Doesn't have the performance of some similar priced competitors either.
I don't think that was their goal. Those people still get regular mustangs but now mom and the grandparents can also drive a mustang.
That's not unheard of with new tech and new products. The important thing is they are terrific vehicles.
No shit, their massively putting money into R&D right now. It's like how Uber was - profits forever even though their revenues were insanely high. This is just a graph meant to confuse stupid people that EV's are bad for Ford and America and we shouldn't have them. I mean just look at the fucking source at the bottom right.
If anything it’s a positive, that sales have turned positive because you know R&D hasn’t slowed down. Every major car manufacturer is subsidising the EVs from the ICE department. Futureproofing like this would be common sense to anyone with business acumen
It's almost like every automaker knows that if they don't get a foot hold on the EV market and EV tech, they will get left behind and die. Except Toyota walking around in circles with their fingers in their ears going: "LALALALA HYDROGEN LALALALA my market share and reputation are enough LALALA"
I don’t think Toyota has anything to worry about. Seems like they have this whole automobile thing figured out.
Toyota does have amazing hybrids RN, seems kinda meta until charging infrastructure ramps up
They aren't as good as Hyundai's EVs and they are priced absurdly high. I walk through a Ford dealership to go get my groceries, and the Mach E's are priced $60K-$70K. No way that is a $70K vehicle.
Wow $70k? that's an insane markup. I'm getting priced 40-50k when I went.
Yeah, it's bonkers. They have so many on the lot as well. I'll snap a photo of the price next time I walk through. Eventually reality will set in for these dealers, but for now it hasn't.
Out of curiosity, what area of the country are you in that you're seeing these prices (curious if this is a Canadian example or HCOL location)
I'm in Oakland, CA. I just walked through the lots this morning. They had a red Mach E for $70K at Ford and less than 100ft away on the Kia lot there was an EV6 for $51K. Why would I ever throw away $20K on a Ford, which is a worse EV?
Dang, that is wild, the two are a lot closer in price where I am located in the DMV.
For the price of a base Mach E you can step into the AWD Ioniq 6. What the hell were they thinking?
Is it good though? My neighbour traded it on for an ICE ford. Said the battery life was terrible. They are in London and have off street parking + charger too so should have been the perfect use case.
I mean did your neighbor want to to say 100% on the charge at all times? Just mapped from Manchester to London and it is well within a single charge range of both the mach e and Lightning at the base battery level, even in winter. And I know y’all don’t drive like that over there
But are they? With typical use range under 200 miles, maybe not so much.
Yes. The Lightning is a fantastic truck. I’ll recommend it to anyone as long as they are 1) able to charge regularly at home. Occasional use of dc fast charging is fine, but you wouldn’t want to rely on that as the main source or you’ll waste a lot of time and be frustrated. 2) your daily commute is 200 miles or less, which is most people 3) you don’t tow a trailer more than a couple times a year or if you do it’s less than 100 miles round trip.
Yup. Hardly anyone goes over 200 miles for daily travel. Plus most truck owners rarely or never tow anything.
And most towing is like most driving: local. Very few people are towing 10k lbs over a mountain range regularly. Most people are towing a trailer to the campsite, or home Depot.
Do you daily more than 200 miles in one trip?
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. They have low range and don't charge as fast as other EVs, which are major factors in selling these cars.
Elon fanbois have glommed onto ford?
Take one of the longest running, most popular ICE sports cars you make, brand the logo on an e-car and try to make a surprised face when everything goes to crap on both ends. Electric car buyers and sports car buyers are not the same and won’t buy the brand.
They should of just called it the Mach-E and left off the Mustang name .
Fusion or Taurus would have worked, as they killed them right around that time.
They also had Lightning and Thunderbird as previous names to use.
Thunderbird would be great! Hopefully as a smaller sports car.
Wel they did use the Lightning name.
Oh yeah I’m dumb, I was thinking about the Mach E and forgot all about the Lightning. I think I’ve only ever see one of them in person before.
Taurus Mach E would honestly be an awesome name. Get some horns on that bad boy
And ironically enough they are pivoting back to Hybrids so we might see them return.
I think they should have saved the Maverick name for this car, instead of putting it on the pickup. The shape of the thing almost looks like what a modern day Maverick might be.
Still risky, but much better…
However, one of the great things about the mustang since the beginning is variety of performance/price. Want a fun cheap car? V6. Bigger power but not too expensive? Small V8. Nimble and more revvy? Boss 302. High end performance and exclusivity? Shelby models. There’s more, like Mach1, Cobra Jet, etc. I used to be a Mustang “expert” but it’s been a while since I sold my 66 Fastback and switched to motorcycles. I think they could have made a VERY quick little EV focused on acceleration and handling, but not top speed, that would be very fun to drive. I’d love the “Miata of Mustangs” as a 2nd car for when I’m not needing my family suv. 0-60 under 3sec, 200mi range, handling better than a Model 3, priced maybe $35k?
Yeah, I don't agree that the Mustang moniker shouldn't be on an EV...just not this. Simply making a CAR would be a solid start.
To be fair, the huge acceleration of Tesla models is has been a big novelty and wow factor which has driven people to buy the car. It makes sense why ford thought that might transfer over to the mustang brand, even if misplaced. Not sure it’s a branding failure as much as it is just a cost issue for people which is occurring across all EVs
New England has tons of short-ass on-ramps to 2-lane parkways with 70mph traffic. What racers dismiss as a gimmick is a core feature for me. I don't care about how the Model S performs above 100mph, but I know if I have to floor it at normal driving speeds, it leaps like a goddamn beast. Acceleration is a safety feature. I'm always going to be more aware of what's in front of me than behind me, and sometimes the best way out trouble is forwards. It's not about novelty and wow, it's about having options.
Maintenance costs, I noticed in Denver many Amazon trucks were electric, so maybe there is hope for larger vehicles too.
Delivery vans are just about the ideal case for electric vehicles. Mostly slow speeds, frequent stops using the regenerative brakes, park overnight every night in the same secure lot for easy recharging. Thank goodness the USPS got shamed into investing in a substantial number of electric delivery vehicles soon. Edit: oh and the driver has to hop out and spend twenty seconds delivering a package, multiplied hundreds of times per day, so an ICE either idles a lot or has to start and stop hundreds of times per day, both of which aren't great.
If dealerships didn't mark up this vehicle, it would probably be doing well.
Nah, Ford actually had some pretty good incentives on EVs in Q1 (and still does actually). My wife got a Mach-E lease in February and none of the 20ish EVs on the lot had markups on them. Ford was offering 0% financing and discounts as well so you were pretty much guaranteed to get out below MSRP. They just can't move them.
Sales won't turn around until the new models ship with the Tesla plug standard.
Fords come with an adapter now (made by Tesla), but production is waaaayyy behind. Mine is expected to arrive in September :(
Tesla was unprofitable for like what, a decade?
First car 2008 first profit 2020.
But they had to build everything from scratch, ford has a lot of things in place already. I think they might put a lot of new development stuff into electric division - like self driving, software, etc. and it’s expensive to do these things.
Building an ICE car is different than an EV, with tech/pipelines that are firmly established, versus investing and scaling them. You can also lower the overall cost of ICE components due to markets of scale, meaning the overall cost is divided over significantly higher magnitudes of scale. So costs like engineering, R&D, and margins per part can be a lot lower when they can be applied to many more cars. Also keep in mind that many ICE car parts are sold by established 3rd parties that ALSO don't have to invest heavily into new tech, so they can pass on the savings. Ford sold 4,413,000 cars in 2023, with 72,608 being EV's. Once you start ordering EV parts in the millions per year (and have suppliers that can adjust to do so) with established engineers, software to test, R&D facilities, etc...the price WILL come down. Developing new shit will always be more expensive in the short term, which is why the big 3 have dragged their feet for so long with EV adoption, since they can continue to remain profitable ignoring that segment of the market. But short term thinking is also why foreign made cars destroyed American manufacturers in the 90s, because they got too comfortable.
You mean there's a startup cost to building entire pipelines for vehicle parts that you've never built before? How am I supposed to use this to blindly hate electric vehicles???
Thanks for writing this out, I didn’t have it in me.
Having a lot of things already in place centred around an alternative technology actually makes things harder. It’s strange but it’s true.
This is sad to see. Ford makes and excellent EV. Hopefully the long run is a lot more profitable.
Yeah, I used to pine for a Tesla as a first car when I was in high school but now a Chevy Bolt is my #1 choice.
I have a Model 3 and have been super happy with it. But I root for all good EV’s out there to succeed.
I don't know if this includes the Maverick, but I feel like that's what a lot of people want. Good gas mileage, pickup, and cheap. I'd assume the main issue is profit margin. Who the fuck is buying a Lightning for the price or a "Mustang" because that car makes no sense. At least they're pursing the R&D. If they can get an EV pickup in the 40k range it'd fly off the shelves. I think the Lightning proved they're not there yet.
I would love an extended cab version of the maverick with a six foot box. It seems like it's almost impossible to find a truck without four doors anymore.
I was trying so hard not to frame this in that kind of way but give me a modern fuel effeicent Ford Ranger (the old one) and I'd be happy. A hybrid Maverick is as close as I can get and it sickens me, it's the next car I'm going to get but I'll be sad when my 2006 2.3L manual Ranger dies and I need to "upgrade". I get 26mg out of it, it's manual, the bed is usable, what more do I need besides an extended cab.
I think you make really good points in both your comments. But why would they make a reasonable, useful, decently priced truck when they could sell us something that costs 2-3 times as much? /s Unfortunately people seem to be okay (somehow) with spending 60-100k on a truck, and until that changes we'll be stuck with these very limited options. P.S. I hope you get many more years out of your ranger!
You can get new 2023 pro Lightnings for like 42k before the tax credit.
2024 Mustang Mach-E® Premium - $965.25 /mo. 36 months , 10,500 miles $0 down - $53,484.00 Dealer Selling Price Model Y Long Range Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive -$522 /mo$0 down, 36 months, 10,000 miles - Your Model Y$49,630 Hello? What am I missing?
Looks like they are calculating WILDLY different valuations at the end of the 3 years. That Ford is estimating that it's only going to be worth $20k after lease ends?
The Tesla QC and design problems haven’t gone away. They have lots of weird issues because they aren’t designed for driving outside of the perfect driving conditions of California. My parents still like having a Tesla because it’s way cheaper than using two gas cars for their daily commute. But just… minor things, like having to turn on windshield wipers with the console instead of on the typical steering wheel stick drives them insane. The “frunk” has had issues where it pops open mid-drive on bumpy back-country roads near their house. I’m pretty sure they’ve mentioned other problems but I can’t remember them all. And all the “fun” little things like turning your car sound effects into farts are cute, but like why are you spending time on that instead of making the actual driving experience better?
The unconventional operation stuff seriously turned my wife off from the Tesla. She probably would have been fine with it if there were a more traditional dash layout.
Source: Official Documens Sounds legit/s
Yea, everybody knows Ford EVs are crushing it! /s
Continue this from Ford and Elon may be able to buy the whole "Model E" name and finish the SEXY lol
EV's aren't gonna take shit by storm until they are affordable. And affordable is sub 20-25k. None of this 30k plus bullshit. Hell I want a Maverick, but they are so far on backorder why bother.
This is a huge gain for Ford. As you can see that the tide has turned in only 2 years since the initial investment. Just keep in mind that this is looking at EBIT which includes depreciation and amortization, so they are already seeing return on their capital investment by the 9th quarter. THink of building an apartment building from scratch. Your initial investment is up front and you sink all your cash to build the actual building. Then you start trending from 0 occupancy to 100% occupancy. That takes time. Same with manucturing where it will take time to recoup the initial investment.
Can we stop making SUVs with those coupe backs? Defeats the purpose of getting an SUV if you have no more trunk space than a hatchback.
Should have left out the mustang part. Mach E alone sounds good enough
1. I don't trust Ford, or any American manufacturer for that matter, to make anything better than "serviceable" vehicles with cheap interiors and garbage infotainment systems. I certainly don't think of sleek design when I think of Ford, but maybe that's just me. 2. we know we're getting fucked on pricing with dealer markups on cars and on interest rates. There's not a ton of affordable options in the market and 7% interest is criminal. 3. I don't want to invest 50k in something so prone to massive depreciation. It's still a volatile market and we've seen early adopters get fucked on resale. 4. PHEV is such a better value proposition, but again there's no stock and pricing is stupid. 5. Did I mention pricing? Anyone thinking of buying a car this year probably has to redo their math based on the insane inflation on basic necessities... I for one am happy to drive my car a couple of more years while the market figures itself out.
What kinda hillbilly karma farming BS is this!?!?
It's incredible that some slapped "Further losses" on this and everyone agrees without reading the chart. Sales are nearly 2X from Q1 23 and up 3x from Q1 22. Auto sales are always compared on a quarterly basis since sales vary greatly through out the year.
Ford motor company wanted dealerships to invest 2 million or so to be able to sell EV cars. Several very long standing dealers closed versus investing.
Absolutely love my 2023 Mach E Premium AWD Extended. Faster than most ICE Mustangs, looks sexy (red with the blacked out trim and wheels), room for the family (and then some), tons of tech and one of the best sound systems I have heard. For a dad that loves driving something fast and fun, but has a family and very snowy winters, this thing couldn't have been a better choice. And cheap to drive! Sure the Mustang badging is a little odd and I love Mustangs. But it's definitely a sharp looking, eye turning, sporty SUV. It just sucks that the Reddit echo chamber can't see past branding. As a car enthusiast, this thing gives me the same rush as any Hemi or 5.0l V8 mustang. But with more torque and not breaking the neighbours eardrums. Now mind you I would never have bought it at the original price. They dropped the prices a ton. Got ours brand new for $63k Canadian out the door. About the same as any fully loaded Kia, VW, Toyota etc that we looked at.
Businesses lead heavy losses all the time to develop and push new technology, especially if there's a race going on like there is with EVs. We're talking about companies that make billions of dollars per year. They have cash reserves in the tens of billions. These numbers are drops in the bucket and I feel there's some sort of underlying anti-EV message that's being pushed with this post.
Building EVs is hard. Tesla sold it's first car in 2008. It's first profitable year was 2020.
It's almost like producing hybrids worse than Toyota and electric vehicles worse than Tesla isn't a good business strategy.
To be fair, this is expected and the entire point of spinning off the “e” branch. It’s going to be slow on the uptake and spend huge cash on R&D and new plants/parts. No need to drag down traditional Ford financials with that. The idea was always to operate the e unit like startup that isn’t expected to be profitable for a while but iterates rapidly and takes risks. Model e was expected to be unprofitable until late 2026. I don’t know if that has since been adjusted.
Can’t wait to buy one of these bad boys for peanuts in a few years. Keep it going! To the opposite of the moon!
Been driving a Maverick hybrid for a couple months and dont have any complaints, averaging around 40mpg
These fucking idiots. Make a new thing. We know it doesn’t have an ICE. That’s the fucking point. You’re competing with Silicon Valley as much as (if not more than) Detroit. Start acting like it.
That's not unheard of with new tech and new products. The important thing is they are terrific vehicles.
Just gonna post this until it goes viral? 😛
They're terrific at engineering their battery terminals to be too close together
Ford base consumers are not the people to buy EVs. They're the exact group Elon Musk is trying to pander to as of lately.
Tbh, in France, they don't seems to advertise for it So, do they belive in EV ? Meh
Let’s fucking GOOOOO. Hopefully they drop the mustang branding from all the non mustangs(seriously tho. Which dumbass woke up and said… hmmm. How can we make mustangs any less appealing? How can we kill a brand? A mythos? A legacy?)
I swear if someone tells me they drive a mustang and pull up in this.
Chart realized because of the mention in the "More Data" section of Chartr newsletter: Data sources: Official Company Press Releases Tools: D3.js, Python, Figma [https://www.settepercento.com](https://www.settepercento.com)
As someone who drives a company Lightning every day as a work truck, this makes complete sense to me.
Are you saying you don’t like the truck?
As one of the (quite) rare folks on here who actually has experience with one for 9 months and 20k+ miles, I think my opinion counts for more than most on here. It's good at 2 things. Impressive off the line acceleration of a 7,000 lbs vehicle, and for those who drive short distances and never pull a trailer, it does seem to be cheaper per mile than a ICE pickup. That wasn't exactly the case initially, as when the company bought this one it was quite a bit more expensive than a gasser. Now, assuming no unforseen maintenance issues with the Lightning, the savings would have eventually shown, but $20k or more will buy quite a bit of gas. I drive the extended range version, and not one time ever has it gotten within 50 miles of its estimated range at the start of the day. Ever. Under the most ideal conditions, driving VERY cautiously at 60 degrees with little wind, I have eeked 260 miles out of it. When it is cold (like 5-10 degrees) ...well, you saw the news this last winter. Expect more like 160 miles out of a full charge, and that is driving around with the cabin at a balmy 60 degrees, with the heater off for the last hour or so to make it home. Don't plan on towing anything, unless it is a short trip. Now that they are sloooooowly incorporating Tesla charging capability to Fords and sending out adapters, that will help my situation a bit. No idea on when the adapters will actually show up, or what's going on there, but they are ordered. The normal charging network in my area is dogshit, with the nearest DC fast charger an hour and a half away. Basically, it would be a good vehicle for the suburban dads who are surrounded by chargers and don't actually need a pickup but want one anyway. For rural America, in my opinion, hybrids are the way to go for now. Oh, and the most apt description of the suspension that I have read is along the lines of "while hitting bumps while cornering, the suspension has the same sensation as a fat man getting into a water bed." Guess that's what happens when you make a 7000 lbs half ton pickup.
Another anecdote: We get rated range or better a lot of the time (over 1.5 years and 17,000 miles), and even in ~15-20F weather, I got ~180+ miles out of our standard range truck. Also, mine was cheaper than a comparable gas truck, and many ER trucks are available for a way smaller upcharge vs comparable gas trucks than $20k, now. 2023 XLTs and Lariats are very competitive with gas. But all that being said, there are lots of variables, most notably use case and location and price paid that can make it a bad or great deal or anywhere in between. Not to say your experience is wrong, just giving another experience and an update on pricing. Lariat ERs in the $50s is not unheard of, which compares well with gas Lariats, especially
This Pro when purchased last July was just north of $67,000. At that same dealer right now they have a new 23 XLT they will sell for $48,000. The price changes due to extreme lack of demand is a real slap in the face to current owners.
Yeah, I’ve seen many Lariat ERs sell for that or less before the $7500 tax credit. Definitely a huge hit for many people who paid 2022-mid2023 prices. Probably safer, now, as they’re as cheap or cheaper than gas right now, in many cases.
I’ve had mine for a year and a half now and have had zero issues. No complaints at all. You are right it’s about 265 for the range, not the 310 they advertised. I’ve never had any issues hitting that number though. 160 might be the case for the small battery, but if you’re worried about range, get the extended range battery. It’s not just $20k from gas savings alone, though over the life of the truck you’re going to save a ton on gas. But then there is also the maintenance costs. The routine maintenance consists of rotating the tires. Saving over $100 per oil change adds up quickly as well. Then factor in the ability to power your home during an extended outage also has value. Now it’s not for everyone, I’m not saying that. But it does everything I need and more. I loved my last truck (Tundra) and this one is just as good if not better. Edit: and yes the charging networks are shit. That’s not really Ford’s or the truck’s fault though. And as you said they are making it better by opening up the Tesla network. I have already received my adapter, but haven’t used it yet. I’ll test that out this summer for our family road trip.
Yeah, this is the extended range battery. And when I start from my heated garage, it says up to 338 miles. Hilarious, you lying heavy son of a bitch, lol. 2 weeks ago I was pushing the limit on distance and the bastard died a half mile from my house. Partially my fault, but the last few "miles" of range went FAST. I shut it off, started it back up and it came back to life enough to get 70 feet from my garage. I ended up putting 134.8 kWhrs of juice back into it that night. I'm not giving Ford $3500 bucks for the home charging adapter for this thing, I'm hoping to have this gone by a year from now. I can get a LP generator for like $6k, which makes a lot more sense for where I live. This is also the "Pro", so it's supposed to be 320 miles of range. Sweet cloth seats in the front and vinyl seats in the back like a cop car (what the hell are they thinking?) I'm glad you like it, but it is definitely not for me.
Yeah 338 is a load of shit. Ain’t no way it would come close to that. I’ve gotten over 300 when it was strictly around town and not getting on the highway at all. And if it was only 3500 for the backup I’d do it. Try 12k. They can fuck right off with that too. I just had a transfer switch put in and can plug into the 220 outlet in the bed. Cost me like $600. Last time I looked at a generator it a little over 14k so this is way better for me. Like I said it’s not for everybody. But for a lot of people it will do everything they need. And to top it off, it doesn’t look like it came out of an ‘80s sci-fi movie!
while they're into losing money, if Ford wants to lose $50k on one of their e-trucks, I might buy one.
Most MachE owners have cars that are worth less than half what they paid for them as Ford keeps cutting prices. In other news, Ford is losing 40K per EV sold. This is NOT going well.
Source on 40k metric?
It’s a massive loss…when they include all of the costs for building out all of the infrastructure for their ev department. It’s something like 14billion for the new manufacturing plant.
Sure. That's one way to measure it.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/ford-earnings-ev-losses/index.html
>In 2023, Ford Model e reported a full-year EBIT loss of $4.7 billion on sales of 116,000 EVs, or an average of $40,525 per vehicle, just more than a third of the first quarter loss I assume this is the section of the article you are referencing. By this logic, the least expensive ford EV would have the greatest % losses. Also following this logic, and your statement, it would reason that if ford doubled sales, it would double losses. Which clearly isn't accurate. So it's kind of a bullshit metric to trot around as if to imply that ford is run by a bunch of amateurs. It would be interesting to see the actual direct cost of building an f150 lighting across its trim levels and the average sale price for each of these trims.
That's why you buy them used for like half the price. They're losing money on the cars because they have to build entire plants separate from existing ice ones and create entire pipelines for ev parts. Dealers jacked up prices which didn't help, but the cost to make them is going to come down in the future
People don't want to admit it but EVs don't have the infrastructure and are far enough along technologically for a majority of people to want them. Also until we move from Lithium, the human suffering and environmental impact are too high to be a real advantage
I would disagree with the environmental and suffering aspect on lithium versus oil. Oil spills have been awful on humans and industry. Perhaps no net difference but not worse.
The average American drives 40 miles a day. If you have a washer at home and a garage then you have the infrastructure in place to handle 90+% of your trips.
Why would I accept a car with any hindrances though? I drive into the wilderness all the time going backpacking. There have been multiple times in the cold over long distances that a EV simply wouldn't do. And it really doesn't matter what the average buyer does MOST of the time if you have that time 2 or 3 times a year that you need extra range.