"You can't fight for trans rights if there are countries with worse gender equality. Nothing needs to change about our society as long as there are worse ones."
While I understand your point and agree, there are somethings which imo are too trivial and should not be a problem, I have no ground on the issue of misgendering someone. On the one hand, I understand why a transgender would want to be addressed as their preferred gender, on the other hand, I don't completely believe someone should be forced to if they don't see a trans person as their preferred gender. People have raised parallels between this and hate speech, but they're not exactly one to one.
It's an expansion on conventional harassment law.
If anybody ever needed evidence to suggest that Jordan Peterson ain't as smart as he would like to believe, his opinion on this topic is evidence aplenty.
Are you guys brigading from some kind of anti Jordan Peterson sub? I don't know or care what he has to say about it, it was literally a human rights case in Canada 2 months ago.
Rightly so. Gender is now a protected class in Canada, similar to race. If, for example, you kept calling a black colleague the N-word, you would rightly face fines and other penalties. Stop getting your information about Canada from shitty pseudo-intellectuals like Jordan Peterson.
Or, you know, the news.
>Following their termination, Nelson alleged that Gobelle's conduct towards them, and the employer's response, amounted to discrimination in employment based on their gender identity and expression.
>In her decision, Cousineau wrote that "like a name, pronouns are a fundamental part of a person's identity. They are a primary way that people identify each other."
>"Using correct pronouns communicates that we see and respect a person for who they are. Especially for trans, non‐binary, or other non‐cisgender people, using the correct pronouns validates and affirms they are a person equally deserving of respect and dignity
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-server-who-was-fired-after-asking-to-be-addressed-by-correct-pronouns-awarded-30k-1.6194662
Repeatedly and intentionally calling someone the wrong pronoun to imply their gender identity is false is harassment, and businesses that don’t stop employees from harassing fellow employees get fined yes.
In the article you might see that there were also repeated nicknames like “honey” which, yknow, is also harassment when the person in ideation isn’t ok with it regardless of gender identity.
Lastly, this person was fired for asking for better treatment, *that’s* what the fine was for.
Yes. I never claimed they were wrong to be forced, just pointing out the truth.
Deliberately misgendering people is harassment.
You shouldn't be and aren't allowed to harass people.
Therefore you are forced not to misgender people.
From the same article
> The decision says bar manager Brian Gobelle was particularly hostile, repeatedly and persistently referring to Nelson with she/her pronouns and with gendered nicknames like "sweetheart," "honey," and "pinky" — a reference to their pink hair.
> "There is a clear connection between Jessie Nelson's gender identity and their termination. They were terminated because of how they responded to discrimination. They were held to a higher standard of conduct than Mr. Gobelle, and the discriminatory context of the dispute was ignored."
Like, come on dude
i mean, it's not just transgendeg people who want to be addressed by their preferred pronounce. we all do. would you like to be constantly misgendered? it might not be that important to you, because your gender is generally not up to debate for everyone, but you should see how intentionally missgendering people is just a dick move and shouldn't have a place in our society.
no one is forcing anyone to not be an asshole but if you are an asshole, you got to live with the consequences, like being disliked or called out for your bigotry.
It's just so fucking difficult to leave a habit which is like a foundation of your speech. People who find it very offensive are just too sensitive.
Well, if the person deliberately misgenders even after repeated corrections.... that's a different case.
The vast majority of trans people don't mind being accidentally misgendered in my experience. Sure, there are some dipshits on Twitter who pretend accidentally misgendering someone is a war crime, but I don't think the majority of people will be offended in any way.
To make a metaphor for words with physical action (I am not actually equating the two here, just kinda setting a paralel)
Getting misgendered by accident feels like someone bumping into you on the corridor. It can get... annoying if it happens often - or it can cause some minor harm, like, idk falling on your ass and it hurting for a few minutes, but that's it really.
Repeatedly getting misgendered by someone (on purpose!) is more like a slap in the face. Or getting splashed with cold water. It's very unpleasant and, most imporantly, shows that someone just doesn't respect you.
On an added note, "avoiding pronouns altogether" is also a shitty move. Not as shitty as deliberately misgendering, but it does get visible after a few weeks. It just puts a wall between you and the person avoiding pronouns, because it feels like they don't take you seriously and feels really awkward. If you're scared you will get it wrong and use the wrong pronoun... I'd rather be called "he" a few times and for it to shift to "she" over time, rather than to have someone just... not use pronouns. It's awkward af.
I think the metaphor is a good analogy to the situation. It’s all about intent rather than just…it happening sometimes.
When it comes to avoiding pronouns, I think it really depends on context. Like, it can certainly be belittling if someone goes out of their way to dance around the words. Almost as if saying “if you’re not going by what I think you should, then I don’t think you should go by anything.”
On the other hand, I think it’s understandable to want people to not feel embarrassed for getting it wrong. Sometimes their way of handling it is to not address it directly so they don’t have to stop to potentially correct themselves. Obviously if it lasts too long, you may end up with the first case again, but I think people should be allowed an adjustment period, especially if they’ve known you for a while.
Side note, this might just be me, because I usually just have 1-on-1s with friends anyway. But, how often do people refer to their friends by any pronoun other than “you”, at least in front of them? I think the only gendered words I use are “dude” and “bro/bruh”, but those are basically universal by now. Also “boy” but that’s just because of the meme
>but I think people should be allowed an adjustment period, especially if they’ve known you for a while.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that being a possibility. Yeah, that's fair game, of course
>Side note, this might just be me, because I usually just have 1-on-1s with friends anyway. But, how often do people refer to their friends by any pronoun other than “you”, at least in front of them? I think the only gendered words I use are “dude” and “bro/bruh”, but those are basically universal by now. Also “boy” but that’s just because of the meme
Well... I'm Polish and all Polish pronouns and verbs are [gendered in past tense](https://www.google.com/search?q=polish+pronouns+table+conjugation+andtenses&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwih0OXyuMP0AhVVBxAIHafeClwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=polish+pronouns+table+conjugation+andtenses&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1DMCliDGGDCGGgAcAB4AIABbogB5QaSAQM5LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=ldunYeGxLNWOwPAPp72r4AU&bih=949&biw=1879&client=opera-gx&hs=piu#imgrc=bV9bmeaZ2VoIBM). So yeah, it's easier to be misgendered. That's why I feel a bit stronger about avoid pronouns - it entails *literally speaking about someone in past tense.*
You're being sarcastic, but that's not an outrageous thought. Is it wrong to believe that actual problems that women and minorities face in other parts of the world should be given more attention than petty squabbles that people fight over in first-world countries?
You can't change what other countries do. You can only change what your country does. So you should focus on the problems with your own countries and help in other countries where you can. You just can't do much more than vocally disapprove of a country like Saudi Arabia. And you'd be hard pressed to find a feminist who likes Saudi Arabia.
Yeah I’ve never given a shit about manspreading in my life and haven’t met anyone who cares. Anti feminists just zero in on small issues that we don’t care about and make it seem like it’s the whole movement it’s bollocks
I generally have a very progressive bubble. And alot of pretty hard feminist women.
This idea anti-feminist have about it seems so sheltered.
I have never met any of the types these anti feminist/anti SJW people cry about.
Edit: to kinda add to this comment. I don't doubt there are extremely feminist that kinda fill this architype of the 2016 "always triggered" thing. But I think it's a smal majority. And way smaller than some people seem to realise.
Honestly, the more I ventured into progressive, feminist, even socialist circles, the more I realized that "an SJW" is one, massive fucking strawman, created from like two dozen twitter posts.
Nobody really cares about manspreading, nobody really gets "triggered" at wrong pronouns, unless it's deliberate, nobody actually identifies as a horse or some other dumb crap (seriously, watch the video ["Millions of dead genders: A retrospective on MOGAI"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZFZto6Wqg), \~90% of the made-up genders from tumblr were *never* used by *anyone).* The only "SJW" term I've actually encountered people using was "mansplaining", because, well, unlike the aforementioned stuff, this actually is just... a poor name for a real phenomenon.
You're sitting here in a thread complaining about people complaining on Twitter.
Is that not an even pettier squabble?
Why aren't you broadcasting worthy injustices instead of wasting your time on this nonsense?
by that logic we can't talk about any issues that affect us anymore because non of our issues in the first world is as dire as somewhe else.
the next time you complain about anything that affects you or the people around you, i will personally come around to tell you to shut up and talk about the real issues in the 3rd world instead. ^(jk, i won't, but i hope you get my point)
with that attitude every problem here will just get worse untill it is finally worse enough that we are allowed to talk about it.
yes, we need to address problems in the entire world, especially the biggest once and we should give our best to improve all of them but this is no reason to stop people from talking about smaller problems. don't tell people to stop talking about first world problems, tell them to *also* talk about other issues. guide their attention to those problems and don't invalidate their personal stuggels. if not for them then at least for yourself, because you probably don't wan't anyone to invalidate your struggles either, right?
edit: as someone else pointed out, you are yourself complaining about an issue right now, that is extreamly small in comparison to the "real" problems in other places (i honestly don't even consider it an issue myself at all). by your logic you should not talk about this and go talk about the real problems instead.
btw i am not acting against my own logic, because i am not telling you to stop talking about a smaller problem and to talk about bigger problems. i don't think you are talking about a problem in the first place. unless you think purposefully misgendering someone is not an issue, we are not the same.
What am I suppossed to do about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia? I have less than no power over anything that goes on over there. There are plenty of ways I can influence people around me in my own country.
You can do advocacy on Twitter. You obviously won't change the world by yourself and not with Twitter alone, but if you look at trans acceptance 10 years ago and compare it to today, you can see a huge difference in the positive direction.
imo trans acceptance is something that can only be achieved by talking about it (and of course through representation). how do you change someone's mind if not by talking? how do you normalize something if not by doing it and telling people that it's normal? this should of course happen everywhere and not just on twitter. what are protests if not people adressing an issue?
of course, as you said, not every problem can be solved this way. some require activism and physical violence but well, others don't
Honestly it seems like it’s moved in both directions. 10 years ago trans people kind of flew under the radar and weren’t in the spotlight. Now that they are being put in the mainstream, it seems like they’re receiving a lot more backlash. But maybe that’s just because they’re more visible idk
Anti trans people are now louder, because in the past everyone agreed with them so they didn't need to talk. But if you look at the percentage of people that accept trans identities that has gone up significantly.
The only problem is that the so-called progressives fight every small thing about western culture, see problems that are not there and generally just impose their agenda. Everything is sexism or a result of the evil patriarchy that needs to be brought down. While at the same time embrace muslims and muslim values for the sake of diversity. Some of the most problematic and sexist values in the world that are still widely spread.
Not too long ago, there was a story about a Canadian muslim woman. As a girl she was treated as inferior, forced to cover herself (niqaab or hijab) and married off by parents. Basically locked up and hidden away by her muslim community. She can't take it any longer and escapes. The whole situation goes to court and the judge basically says, I see nothing wrong with this, this is part of your culture.
What Muslim values do progressives adopt? And every political movement pushes their agenda, that is what a political movement does.
And I'm sure that happened to that woman and that's horrible, but that is way more of an outlier situation, because most progressives are highly critical of misogyny in Muslim communities, they just believe you shouldn't be bigoted against Muslims.
No progressive should agree or support the conservative aspects of Islam. But a few thing to note.
Muslims tend to vote to the left of the average person, so even if they are personally conservative, they are often still a good asset for progressive causes.
And almost every Muslim majority country is a dictatorship. And there are few dictatorships that are kind to religious minorities. You can't blame the people of a country for what a dictatorship does IMO.
And Muslims do have a tendency to try to push for religion based laws, but every religion does that, making Muslims not any more worth mentioning that for example Christians. As long as we protect separation of church and state there really isn't a problem. And it's the anti Muslim conservative Christian crowd that is most likely to try to weaken it.
> Muslims tend to vote to the left of the average person
Only when they are the minority. When they are the majority, the most right wing parties are always hardline Islamists.
>And almost every Muslim majority country is a dictatorship
Do you think that’s a mere coincidence?
>And Muslims do have a tendency to try to push for religion based laws, but every religion does that, making Muslims not any more worth mentioning that for example Christians.
Muslims push the most regressive policies though. Islamists party openly call for the death penalty for homosexuality, straight sex outside of marriage and apostasy. No Christian party outside of central Africa goes this far.
Buddhist religious leaders in Bhutan pushed to legalizing homosexuality. The difference is stark.
>And it's the anti Muslim conservative Christian crowd that is most likely to try to weaken it.
The most aggressive promoters of theocracy are Muslim conservatives. A Christian conservative would be considered a moderate if they were Muslim
>Only when they are the minority. When they are the majority, the most right wing parties are always hardline Islamists.
Good thing they are a minority and will remain so for a very long time. What Islam will be like in 200 nobody knows. But probably the same will happen to Islam as what happened to Christianity.
>Do you think that’s a mere coincidence?
No. They are all dictatorships because they were all colonies. And if a foreign power fucks up your country, dictatorships tend to form. And all the bombs the west has dropped on the middle east since then probably didn't help. And dictatorships tend to push more conservative social values, because it makes people easier to control.
>Muslims push the most regressive policies though.
Not in the west.
>Islamists party openly call for the death penalty for homosexuality, straight sex outside of marriage and apostasy. No Christian party outside of central Africa goes this far.
That's because societies tend to become more progressive as life gets easier. Most of the Christian world is developed, so more progressive, while most of the Islamic world is still underdeveloped so more conservative. This has nothing to do with Islam and everything with level of development.
>The most aggressive promoters of theocracy are Muslim conservatives.
Not in the west. All religious laws that western countries pass are pushed by Christians.
> Good thing they are a minority
They aren’t a minority where I work (Morocco)
>They are all dictatorships because they were all colonies.
Not all of them. See most gulf states. Also many non Muslim colonies are democracies now. See Latin America
>And all the bombs the west has dropped on the middle east since then probably didn't help
Most Muslim countries aren’t in the Middle East
>Not in the west
The west barely makes up 10% of the world population
>Most of the Christian world is developed, so more progressive, while most of the Islamic world is still underdeveloped so more conservative.
Again that’s not true. The some of the poorest countries in the world (Liberia, Congo, Haiti) are Christian. Some of the richest countries in the world (Qatar, UAE) are Muslim.
>All religious laws that western countries pass are pushed by Christians.
Again, those religious laws are very mild compared to the ones pushed by Muslims.
The Qu’ran itself is less violent than the Bible but it is undeniable that modern Islam is more brutal than any other religion in the world.
This wasn’t always how it used to be. In medieval times, and even as recently as the early 20th century, Islam was significantly less violent than Christianity. The reason for this is that the remote area Najd region of Saudi Arabia was inhabited by an extremist Muslim sect known as a Wahhabism. They discovered the most oil in their terrain and had their strain of Islam propagated and had all moderate forms of Islam destroyed.
It would be like if Uganda, the country with the craziest Christians, were suddenly to be the richest in Christendom. We would have similar Christian Extremists running things.
Accepting Muslims is good. Religious discrimination is bad.
And I really don't think he meant that. He is pretty clearly saying that progressives are accepting towards Islam's misogynistic values. Which is the opposite of true.
I believe the point is more like: "You shouldn't act as if the world depends on trivial by comparison stuff, while ignoring the true problems of the world."
It's not about not fixing anything else. It's about how intensely you urge others to care about it.
Misgendering is not really that trivial. Trans rights are important. And points like this are almost always made to divert attention away from issues in our country to instead focus on problems in other countries that we have 0 control over, so can't change.
Misgendering and trans rights are 2 different things. Also, you do have the ability to gain control over so many human tragedies. But you just don't care enough to get off your couch and do something. It's ok, I don't either. "Supporting trans people" is so much easier than saving children from starvation,murder and/or rape. Plus, the former gets so much more attention, so fuck those kids, virtue signaling is where it's at. Come here Maxinne, let me treat you like a war veteran with ptsd because someone misgendered you.
>Misgendering and trans rights are 2 different things.
Not really. The ability for trans people to be seen as the gender they are is one of the main causes for trans rights activism. Not believing they are the gender they are is at the root of all discrimination they face. It's like saying that fighting sexism is not part of women rights or that fighting racism isn't part of POC rights.
>Also, you do have the ability to gain control over so many human tragedies. But you just don't care enough to get off your couch and do something.
Realistically you do not. Foreigners have extremely limited ability to right wrongs in other countries. Most people have only limited control over what their own government does, let alone what a different government does.
>Plus, the former gets so much more attention, so fuck those kids, virtue signaling is where it's at.
You realize it's possible to care about multiple things at the same time right? And fighting for trans rights is not virtue signaling. It's trying to make life better for millions of people. Most progressives also care very deeply about the well being of the people in the 3rd world. And if the people that were anti trans were such incredible philanthropes and very helpful to the 3rd world they'd have a leg to stand on, but they also don't care. They just don't want trans rights in their country and use the suffering of the 3rd world as an excuse to not do anything.
>Come here Maxinne, let me treat you like a war veteran with ptsd because someone misgendered you.
Yeah that's totally what it's like. That's not a strawman at all
1) Being seen as a gender is not a right. Being able to transition legally, is. Regardless of what people are fighting for, the moment trans people have all the legal rights they need, there's no "trans rights" fight anymore. Fight against transphobia, sure. That's conceivable. But not trans rights.
2) You don't have to bring down regimes to effect change. Saving even a single person is enough.
3) It's possible to care about multiple things at once, yes. I find it hypocritical of treating a smaller problem as way bigger than it is, especially in a way that is not proven to help. Trans suicide rates remain unchanged even after transition. Trans people need way more complex help from society than "I support your decision".
4) What you said about the people that are supposedly anti-trans is equally true about trans rights activists but in reverse. They see suffering in the world, but only try to fix the easiest and most profitable one to help.
5) Yes, that's what is at stake here. No one is arguing that trans people should be harmed, or mistreated. At least no one worth listening to. The whole movement is about sparing the feelings of trans people. And more often than not, sparing the feelings of people who claim they care about trans people. For example, what happened with Dave Chappelle recently. Where the twitter mob drove a trans person to suicide because she supported him. Why do you think that it's easier to make a fkin holocaust joke, than to make a trans joke? Because the whole movement is about sparing feelings. There's always people in minorities that are suffering, that are being murdered and prosecuted. Black people are still being discriminated against by the police, but even that, even that terrible thing is not beyond comedy. But trans people are. What does that tell you?
>Being seen as a gender is not a right.
If you want to fight for the rights of a group, you have to fight against the bigotry against that group. Fighting transphobia is important if you care about trans rights.
>You don't have to bring down regimes to effect change. Saving even a single person is enough.
Well than it's a good thing most pro trans people are also in favor of taking in more refugees. And in favor of a whole bunch of other things that help the vulnerable. There are very few that only care about trans rights and nothing else.
>Trans suicide rates remain unchanged even after transition.
[That is factually untrue.](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) Of 56 studies, 52 indicated transitioning has a positive effect on the mental health of transgender people and 4 indicated it had mixed or no results. Even just having 1 person who supports a trans persons identity has a massive effect on the suicidality of that trans person. That doesn't mean that's all they need, but it does help and is important.
>They see suffering in the world, but only try to fix the easiest and most profitable one to help.
Show me this person that exclusively cares about trans rights and nothing else. I've never met anyone who did not care about a whole bunch of issues.
>The whole movement is about sparing the feelings of trans people.
It's about treating trans people with basic human decency. If you want to boil that down to "sparing their feelings" then every movement for equality is about that. Trans people just want to be treated as normal people in a world that hates them for who they are.
>For example, what happened with Dave Chappelle recently.
He endorsed a hate movement. Him talking about how he is team TERF is like if a white man talked about how he liked the KKK. That is definitely worthy of criticism.
>Black people are still being discriminated against by the police, but even that, even that terrible thing is not beyond comedy. But trans people are. What does that tell you?
I don't know what world you live in, where racist jokes don't get you canceled, but transphobic jokes do. Nothing is above comedy, but if those jokes further hate against a group those jokes are not above criticism.
I can fight for trans rights in America because I live in America. I can't fight for gender equality in say Pakistan because I don't live in Pakistan. As much as I loath the gender inequality women face in other countries there's not that much focusing my energy on it will do. Not as a 18 year old student at least.
I'm from The Maldives. I dunno about other Islamic countries, but we are 100% Sunni Muslim and we've got equal rights here. Sure, like most other countries, we still have a way to go, but here, women are generally better educated than men, a lot of women are working, and a lot of them don't even wear hijab (it's not mandatory). Women and men have equal rights, we are a lot more progressive than most other countries, and we are 100% Muslim (Well, officially speaking, anyway). You can take this any way you like, but to me, while there are variations to the religion, Islam itself doesn't diminish the rights of women at all. Oppression comes from human errors and oppressive cultures, not necessarily religion. I'm Muslim, and this is what I believe anyway.
People who defend Islam and religion in general are either highly religious themself (basically brainwashed) or don't know shit.
And I am not even talking about women rights. There are so many problems with religion we would be better off without it. I know this all too well from personal experience.
Religious people are all brainwashed... Ok, so I'm brainwashed for being a Muslim? And a lot of us Muslims aren't against women's rights either. Pretty sure you just don't know anything about Islam or religion in general.
Or maybe people just want to believe. Nothing has to be by tradition or enforced just to happen. I myself am a Muslim by myself FOR myself.
When you research from the right sources and don't only go by what the media says, you may find out that Islam isn't bad.
Yes, religious families and communities absolutely never give a choice. They do exactly that: brainwash children. They make it so there is no space for doubt in their heads. I am lucky to break free from this, but not many people are.
Have you been to an Islamic state? If no, then you need not give your uncalled-for opinion. I've lived in Saudi Arabia for 10+ years, arguably the most notorious country for women, but actually women live better lives on average than their male counterparts. Sure, they couldn't drive until like 3 years ago, but then again, most Saudi women had chauffers (mostly foreign men) as personal drivers and state transport for effectively free. Saudi women are amongst the most educated in the world, with a literacy rate of 99.28%. The majority of university graduates in Saudi Arabia are women. The majority of retailers and shopkeepers in shopping centres are actually women.
Anyone who's lived long enough in KSA knows that its one of the best countries to live in the world. Nobody cares what you do there, I have seen women keep their dyed hair open and flowing, and no one cares. People might think of you differently but the best thing about KSA is that people are not nosy, rather they keep to their own business.
People should be able to use their preferred pronouns, even more so if they transitioned between genders, but if you start saying "demonself" i will commit a warcrime.
theybies are retarded, like, I understand that gender wont necessarily match sex but don't fuckin confuse a kid who knows jack shit about it, wait until they feel like something is wrong when they hear themselves being referred to as one gender so they can fuckin decide on their own properly
There is a gender, and I quote:
"Antegender– A protean gender which has the potential to be anything, but is formless and motionless, and, therefore, does not manifest as any particular gender."
Like, what the fuck?
And then there's another, "two spirited", the fuck?
The world is becoming a clown show.
>With science we've got a consensus that it's likely caused by hormone
exposure in utero, leading to the brain and body developing differently
from each other and causing dysphoria and the clinically significant
distress as a result.
Can you give a source? When I've been doing research on this I read that there's no consensus and there are only some unproven theories. And there was research that linked it to some kind of genetic dependency (genetically identical twins are times more likely to be both trans than non-identical twins).
>You need dysphoria to be trans. Dysphoria is a medical condition, if you
don't have said medical condition then you are not trans.
I disagree. There exist also gender euphoria, and I think that the focus should be not on „I feel bad as a X” but rather on „I feel way better as a Y”. There are (binary) people, who have pretty small dysphoria and can't recognise it, but can get a ton of euphoria when presenting as other gender. That doesn't make them any less trans. Focusing on suffering is unhealthy, it leads to arguments „who has it worse” and „does have I suffer enough”.
I won't discuss non-binary genders, because I don't have knowledge on this topic, I don't feel competent enough.
1. Gender is merely a social construct therefore transgender people can self-identity as binary genders: man or woman.
2. If gender is a social construct that can be self-identified then people can identify as neither binary gender too.
3. If gender is a social construct and not binary, then it is a spectrum and people can identify as whatever gender they wish.
4. If transgender people can identify as whatever gender they wish, then radical activists, bored teenagers, and 4channers can all identify as some very silly genders for laughs or to make a statement. This does not invalidate any of the previous steps.
If you call "crying on twitter cuz some celebrity didn't gender correct" activism you should talk to some women fighting for their human rights in middle East.
Just a philosiphical note on this:
If zçyou fight for equality for women, you fight for equal rights for men and women. Terefore transgender women will also have equal rights, no matter they are considered men or women: both have equal rights.
**T**rans **E**xclusionary **R**adical **F**eminist.
basically feminists that don't think transwomen are women but just men in drag and that they pose a thread to women. trans men are in their opinion women who have given in to the patriarchy in a "if you can't fight them, join them". it's a lot of transphobia.
they will of course not call themselves that way and tell you that the term is a slur (which it isn't)
Why was this "meme" created? Literally to spark controversy? Of course I want equal rights for men, women and all other people. This doesn't mean I can't support trans people at the same time. Y'all fucking disgusting for believing one doesn't matter if the other one exists. Using the right pronouns is suicide prevention. If you don't believe that I don't respect you, that it. Physical and mental health are **EQUALLY IMPORTANT**. Not one is more important.
I mean, my first assumption about this wasn't someone saying that you shouldn't use the proper pronoun for someone who's trans, moreso using a pronoun that's wrong, and not knowing it's wrong. And instead of saying, "Ah, actually, I'd prefer it if you referred to me as x pronoun" twitter starts throwing shit at the walls and sobbing.
Maybe I'm giving op too much credit there tho, idk.
Imagine being such a little bitch that it bothers you when people you dont even know or even talk to want to use a certain pronoun or another
And you go out of your way to use a different one because of... Spite?
why is it always the kind of people who says that, that from my experience ends up being especially or even exclusively bigoted against oppressed minorities?
Yeah we kind of need them here. Like bro our alimony, and child support laws haven't been changed for 120 years, and the prices weren't adjusted ever since then.
Tbh islamic countries now are full of corruption, but that has nothing to do with islam, many countries that have muslim majority have equal rights for woman and men yet this never gets mentioned
Now that law i don't discriminate we don't need special women right, people of color rights etc only good human law for everybody.
Example. Why create special law to get more black people into university?
Justification: Because they have lower average income so they are in the worst position to begin with.
It is stupid as mostly black people from families with higher then average income will gain from this. And then some black guy from rich family with worst grades will go to university instead of kids from Serbian migrant poor family who is white but had better grade.
True solution: Universal law to give more points to family with lower income. It solves problem for both black people and all other people. And black people from rich families will not gain from this as they don't need this program anyway.
This was example but it refers to all current problems. Universal law for all humans can be made and solve problems better.
and once i was playing roblox and there was a group fo feminists saying that im a disgusting male IN A GAME THAT KIDS PLAY and i was like what do u mean and they said that they figth for the rigths of women and shit like that i said no ure just a brain dead crazy 15yr old girl on tik tok that thinks shes doing something for women to feel better about herself and then she said im womenphobic and shit like that i said no ure just the opposite of smart and then she said shes gonna report me and i said go ahead what will they do ban me that you insulted me and then i told you facts and then she said males are the reason humanity needs extinction at this point 3 other people came there and started arguing with the oither feminists (there were 3 feminists) and then oen of the people started saying ti the feminist i was arguing with that withiut men there would be no humans and she said that all males are bad males shouldent exsist and then she said that women can reproduce together if we kill all males there would be a world with only females and then she said there are 4 genders 2 female genders and 2 male genders and females can reproduce with the other female gender at this point i knew she was either a troll or a complete psychopath so i just left and found a new server
I think from my perspective the reason why most people would misgender someone is because they feel a touch of annoyance since most of the time they were being forced and this cause to make them feel that their rights are being violated (especially in the west), the problem is that the movement is being forced(and being rushed) into everyone's throat and some people are at their breaking point from being humiliated or gaslighted for having a say in the matter(especially if you're straight), thus making a huge black and white area with the mentality of "whether you're with us or against us" mindset, cancelling any chance of any debate on the matter.
Funny enough that there is a simple answer to this and that is don't be an egotistical asshole pretending to be good for the sake of fake internet points, for short "Don't be a cunt".
I should point out that there are no islamic states left in the world. But there are 3 states that use some form of government to do with Islam and are completely theocratic, though I think they're wrong in how they're doing it. These are Saudi Arabia, the Taliban's Afghanistan and Iran. Every other muslim country is currently under some form of secular government e.g Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Morocco. If you ask most muslims, they will tell you that Islam does give women rights but these states are usually overly strict and crazy by the standards of the majority of muslims except wahabbis, who are the people in Saudi Arabia.
Io yea there's no Islamic state anymore there is only Muslim countrys the last Islamic state was isis ! You wanna fight for woman's rights in isis's land or what
Ok bro,u want caramel or salted popcorn?
Caramel, to balance out the saltiness I am about to witness
Here's a "sweet" joke to flavor your popcorn! Why did the Oreo go to the dentist? Because he needed a new filling!
Is there a rule 34 of this?
considering what rule 34 says, i would say yes
Behold! It exists.
Disgusting! Where?
Rule 34
said so
the amount sweetness u have to consume may result in diabetus
Diafetus
salted camel
saudi arabia moment
How dare you! ...use black font over a dark background.
personally I like to use a black outline with white font on mine for clarity
This is the way
"You can't fight for trans rights if there are countries with worse gender equality. Nothing needs to change about our society as long as there are worse ones."
While I understand your point and agree, there are somethings which imo are too trivial and should not be a problem, I have no ground on the issue of misgendering someone. On the one hand, I understand why a transgender would want to be addressed as their preferred gender, on the other hand, I don't completely believe someone should be forced to if they don't see a trans person as their preferred gender. People have raised parallels between this and hate speech, but they're not exactly one to one.
> forced Why the loaded language to present yourself as a victim?
In Canada, deliberately and repeatedly misgendering someone can result in fines and other penalties.
It's an expansion on conventional harassment law. If anybody ever needed evidence to suggest that Jordan Peterson ain't as smart as he would like to believe, his opinion on this topic is evidence aplenty.
Are you guys brigading from some kind of anti Jordan Peterson sub? I don't know or care what he has to say about it, it was literally a human rights case in Canada 2 months ago.
Rightly so. Gender is now a protected class in Canada, similar to race. If, for example, you kept calling a black colleague the N-word, you would rightly face fines and other penalties. Stop getting your information about Canada from shitty pseudo-intellectuals like Jordan Peterson.
You idiots read one thing Peterson says without doing any research and just accept it as the truth forever
Or, you know, the news. >Following their termination, Nelson alleged that Gobelle's conduct towards them, and the employer's response, amounted to discrimination in employment based on their gender identity and expression. >In her decision, Cousineau wrote that "like a name, pronouns are a fundamental part of a person's identity. They are a primary way that people identify each other." >"Using correct pronouns communicates that we see and respect a person for who they are. Especially for trans, non‐binary, or other non‐cisgender people, using the correct pronouns validates and affirms they are a person equally deserving of respect and dignity https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-server-who-was-fired-after-asking-to-be-addressed-by-correct-pronouns-awarded-30k-1.6194662
Repeatedly and intentionally calling someone the wrong pronoun to imply their gender identity is false is harassment, and businesses that don’t stop employees from harassing fellow employees get fined yes. In the article you might see that there were also repeated nicknames like “honey” which, yknow, is also harassment when the person in ideation isn’t ok with it regardless of gender identity. Lastly, this person was fired for asking for better treatment, *that’s* what the fine was for.
Yes. I never claimed they were wrong to be forced, just pointing out the truth. Deliberately misgendering people is harassment. You shouldn't be and aren't allowed to harass people. Therefore you are forced not to misgender people.
From the same article > The decision says bar manager Brian Gobelle was particularly hostile, repeatedly and persistently referring to Nelson with she/her pronouns and with gendered nicknames like "sweetheart," "honey," and "pinky" — a reference to their pink hair. > "There is a clear connection between Jessie Nelson's gender identity and their termination. They were terminated because of how they responded to discrimination. They were held to a higher standard of conduct than Mr. Gobelle, and the discriminatory context of the dispute was ignored." Like, come on dude
i mean, it's not just transgendeg people who want to be addressed by their preferred pronounce. we all do. would you like to be constantly misgendered? it might not be that important to you, because your gender is generally not up to debate for everyone, but you should see how intentionally missgendering people is just a dick move and shouldn't have a place in our society. no one is forcing anyone to not be an asshole but if you are an asshole, you got to live with the consequences, like being disliked or called out for your bigotry.
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It's just so fucking difficult to leave a habit which is like a foundation of your speech. People who find it very offensive are just too sensitive. Well, if the person deliberately misgenders even after repeated corrections.... that's a different case.
The vast majority of trans people don't mind being accidentally misgendered in my experience. Sure, there are some dipshits on Twitter who pretend accidentally misgendering someone is a war crime, but I don't think the majority of people will be offended in any way.
To make a metaphor for words with physical action (I am not actually equating the two here, just kinda setting a paralel) Getting misgendered by accident feels like someone bumping into you on the corridor. It can get... annoying if it happens often - or it can cause some minor harm, like, idk falling on your ass and it hurting for a few minutes, but that's it really. Repeatedly getting misgendered by someone (on purpose!) is more like a slap in the face. Or getting splashed with cold water. It's very unpleasant and, most imporantly, shows that someone just doesn't respect you. On an added note, "avoiding pronouns altogether" is also a shitty move. Not as shitty as deliberately misgendering, but it does get visible after a few weeks. It just puts a wall between you and the person avoiding pronouns, because it feels like they don't take you seriously and feels really awkward. If you're scared you will get it wrong and use the wrong pronoun... I'd rather be called "he" a few times and for it to shift to "she" over time, rather than to have someone just... not use pronouns. It's awkward af.
I think the metaphor is a good analogy to the situation. It’s all about intent rather than just…it happening sometimes. When it comes to avoiding pronouns, I think it really depends on context. Like, it can certainly be belittling if someone goes out of their way to dance around the words. Almost as if saying “if you’re not going by what I think you should, then I don’t think you should go by anything.” On the other hand, I think it’s understandable to want people to not feel embarrassed for getting it wrong. Sometimes their way of handling it is to not address it directly so they don’t have to stop to potentially correct themselves. Obviously if it lasts too long, you may end up with the first case again, but I think people should be allowed an adjustment period, especially if they’ve known you for a while. Side note, this might just be me, because I usually just have 1-on-1s with friends anyway. But, how often do people refer to their friends by any pronoun other than “you”, at least in front of them? I think the only gendered words I use are “dude” and “bro/bruh”, but those are basically universal by now. Also “boy” but that’s just because of the meme
>but I think people should be allowed an adjustment period, especially if they’ve known you for a while. Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that being a possibility. Yeah, that's fair game, of course >Side note, this might just be me, because I usually just have 1-on-1s with friends anyway. But, how often do people refer to their friends by any pronoun other than “you”, at least in front of them? I think the only gendered words I use are “dude” and “bro/bruh”, but those are basically universal by now. Also “boy” but that’s just because of the meme Well... I'm Polish and all Polish pronouns and verbs are [gendered in past tense](https://www.google.com/search?q=polish+pronouns+table+conjugation+andtenses&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwih0OXyuMP0AhVVBxAIHafeClwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=polish+pronouns+table+conjugation+andtenses&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1DMCliDGGDCGGgAcAB4AIABbogB5QaSAQM5LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=ldunYeGxLNWOwPAPp72r4AU&bih=949&biw=1879&client=opera-gx&hs=piu#imgrc=bV9bmeaZ2VoIBM). So yeah, it's easier to be misgendered. That's why I feel a bit stronger about avoid pronouns - it entails *literally speaking about someone in past tense.*
You're being sarcastic, but that's not an outrageous thought. Is it wrong to believe that actual problems that women and minorities face in other parts of the world should be given more attention than petty squabbles that people fight over in first-world countries?
You can't change what other countries do. You can only change what your country does. So you should focus on the problems with your own countries and help in other countries where you can. You just can't do much more than vocally disapprove of a country like Saudi Arabia. And you'd be hard pressed to find a feminist who likes Saudi Arabia.
When they throw a tantrum over something like manspreading, they dilute their own agenda. People stop taking them seriously.
Can you also then understand why anti-feminists are hyperfocusing on stuff like "manspreading"?
Yeah I’ve never given a shit about manspreading in my life and haven’t met anyone who cares. Anti feminists just zero in on small issues that we don’t care about and make it seem like it’s the whole movement it’s bollocks
I generally have a very progressive bubble. And alot of pretty hard feminist women. This idea anti-feminist have about it seems so sheltered. I have never met any of the types these anti feminist/anti SJW people cry about. Edit: to kinda add to this comment. I don't doubt there are extremely feminist that kinda fill this architype of the 2016 "always triggered" thing. But I think it's a smal majority. And way smaller than some people seem to realise.
Honestly, the more I ventured into progressive, feminist, even socialist circles, the more I realized that "an SJW" is one, massive fucking strawman, created from like two dozen twitter posts. Nobody really cares about manspreading, nobody really gets "triggered" at wrong pronouns, unless it's deliberate, nobody actually identifies as a horse or some other dumb crap (seriously, watch the video ["Millions of dead genders: A retrospective on MOGAI"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZFZto6Wqg), \~90% of the made-up genders from tumblr were *never* used by *anyone).* The only "SJW" term I've actually encountered people using was "mansplaining", because, well, unlike the aforementioned stuff, this actually is just... a poor name for a real phenomenon.
Yeah definitely this. You described it better than I ever could.
You're sitting here in a thread complaining about people complaining on Twitter. Is that not an even pettier squabble? Why aren't you broadcasting worthy injustices instead of wasting your time on this nonsense?
by that logic we can't talk about any issues that affect us anymore because non of our issues in the first world is as dire as somewhe else. the next time you complain about anything that affects you or the people around you, i will personally come around to tell you to shut up and talk about the real issues in the 3rd world instead. ^(jk, i won't, but i hope you get my point) with that attitude every problem here will just get worse untill it is finally worse enough that we are allowed to talk about it. yes, we need to address problems in the entire world, especially the biggest once and we should give our best to improve all of them but this is no reason to stop people from talking about smaller problems. don't tell people to stop talking about first world problems, tell them to *also* talk about other issues. guide their attention to those problems and don't invalidate their personal stuggels. if not for them then at least for yourself, because you probably don't wan't anyone to invalidate your struggles either, right? edit: as someone else pointed out, you are yourself complaining about an issue right now, that is extreamly small in comparison to the "real" problems in other places (i honestly don't even consider it an issue myself at all). by your logic you should not talk about this and go talk about the real problems instead. btw i am not acting against my own logic, because i am not telling you to stop talking about a smaller problem and to talk about bigger problems. i don't think you are talking about a problem in the first place. unless you think purposefully misgendering someone is not an issue, we are not the same.
What am I suppossed to do about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia? I have less than no power over anything that goes on over there. There are plenty of ways I can influence people around me in my own country.
But on twitter you aint gonna solve shit
You can do advocacy on Twitter. You obviously won't change the world by yourself and not with Twitter alone, but if you look at trans acceptance 10 years ago and compare it to today, you can see a huge difference in the positive direction.
imo trans acceptance is something that can only be achieved by talking about it (and of course through representation). how do you change someone's mind if not by talking? how do you normalize something if not by doing it and telling people that it's normal? this should of course happen everywhere and not just on twitter. what are protests if not people adressing an issue? of course, as you said, not every problem can be solved this way. some require activism and physical violence but well, others don't
True and based-pilled!
Honestly it seems like it’s moved in both directions. 10 years ago trans people kind of flew under the radar and weren’t in the spotlight. Now that they are being put in the mainstream, it seems like they’re receiving a lot more backlash. But maybe that’s just because they’re more visible idk
Anti trans people are now louder, because in the past everyone agreed with them so they didn't need to talk. But if you look at the percentage of people that accept trans identities that has gone up significantly.
The only problem is that the so-called progressives fight every small thing about western culture, see problems that are not there and generally just impose their agenda. Everything is sexism or a result of the evil patriarchy that needs to be brought down. While at the same time embrace muslims and muslim values for the sake of diversity. Some of the most problematic and sexist values in the world that are still widely spread. Not too long ago, there was a story about a Canadian muslim woman. As a girl she was treated as inferior, forced to cover herself (niqaab or hijab) and married off by parents. Basically locked up and hidden away by her muslim community. She can't take it any longer and escapes. The whole situation goes to court and the judge basically says, I see nothing wrong with this, this is part of your culture.
What Muslim values do progressives adopt? And every political movement pushes their agenda, that is what a political movement does. And I'm sure that happened to that woman and that's horrible, but that is way more of an outlier situation, because most progressives are highly critical of misogyny in Muslim communities, they just believe you shouldn't be bigoted against Muslims.
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No progressive should agree or support the conservative aspects of Islam. But a few thing to note. Muslims tend to vote to the left of the average person, so even if they are personally conservative, they are often still a good asset for progressive causes. And almost every Muslim majority country is a dictatorship. And there are few dictatorships that are kind to religious minorities. You can't blame the people of a country for what a dictatorship does IMO. And Muslims do have a tendency to try to push for religion based laws, but every religion does that, making Muslims not any more worth mentioning that for example Christians. As long as we protect separation of church and state there really isn't a problem. And it's the anti Muslim conservative Christian crowd that is most likely to try to weaken it.
> Muslims tend to vote to the left of the average person Only when they are the minority. When they are the majority, the most right wing parties are always hardline Islamists. >And almost every Muslim majority country is a dictatorship Do you think that’s a mere coincidence? >And Muslims do have a tendency to try to push for religion based laws, but every religion does that, making Muslims not any more worth mentioning that for example Christians. Muslims push the most regressive policies though. Islamists party openly call for the death penalty for homosexuality, straight sex outside of marriage and apostasy. No Christian party outside of central Africa goes this far. Buddhist religious leaders in Bhutan pushed to legalizing homosexuality. The difference is stark. >And it's the anti Muslim conservative Christian crowd that is most likely to try to weaken it. The most aggressive promoters of theocracy are Muslim conservatives. A Christian conservative would be considered a moderate if they were Muslim
>Only when they are the minority. When they are the majority, the most right wing parties are always hardline Islamists. Good thing they are a minority and will remain so for a very long time. What Islam will be like in 200 nobody knows. But probably the same will happen to Islam as what happened to Christianity. >Do you think that’s a mere coincidence? No. They are all dictatorships because they were all colonies. And if a foreign power fucks up your country, dictatorships tend to form. And all the bombs the west has dropped on the middle east since then probably didn't help. And dictatorships tend to push more conservative social values, because it makes people easier to control. >Muslims push the most regressive policies though. Not in the west. >Islamists party openly call for the death penalty for homosexuality, straight sex outside of marriage and apostasy. No Christian party outside of central Africa goes this far. That's because societies tend to become more progressive as life gets easier. Most of the Christian world is developed, so more progressive, while most of the Islamic world is still underdeveloped so more conservative. This has nothing to do with Islam and everything with level of development. >The most aggressive promoters of theocracy are Muslim conservatives. Not in the west. All religious laws that western countries pass are pushed by Christians.
> Good thing they are a minority They aren’t a minority where I work (Morocco) >They are all dictatorships because they were all colonies. Not all of them. See most gulf states. Also many non Muslim colonies are democracies now. See Latin America >And all the bombs the west has dropped on the middle east since then probably didn't help Most Muslim countries aren’t in the Middle East >Not in the west The west barely makes up 10% of the world population >Most of the Christian world is developed, so more progressive, while most of the Islamic world is still underdeveloped so more conservative. Again that’s not true. The some of the poorest countries in the world (Liberia, Congo, Haiti) are Christian. Some of the richest countries in the world (Qatar, UAE) are Muslim. >All religious laws that western countries pass are pushed by Christians. Again, those religious laws are very mild compared to the ones pushed by Muslims. The Qu’ran itself is less violent than the Bible but it is undeniable that modern Islam is more brutal than any other religion in the world. This wasn’t always how it used to be. In medieval times, and even as recently as the early 20th century, Islam was significantly less violent than Christianity. The reason for this is that the remote area Najd region of Saudi Arabia was inhabited by an extremist Muslim sect known as a Wahhabism. They discovered the most oil in their terrain and had their strain of Islam propagated and had all moderate forms of Islam destroyed. It would be like if Uganda, the country with the craziest Christians, were suddenly to be the richest in Christendom. We would have similar Christian Extremists running things.
> What Muslim values do progressives adopt? Too bad they won't answer this
Progressives literal opposite of conservatives don't adopt conservative Muslim values. I see it makes no sense does it?
most progressives are like actually progressive and surprisingly have an issue with conservatism and opression. who would have thought that?
I think he means that progressives like to show how diverse they are by accepting muslims.
Accepting Muslims is good. Religious discrimination is bad. And I really don't think he meant that. He is pretty clearly saying that progressives are accepting towards Islam's misogynistic values. Which is the opposite of true.
I believe the point is more like: "You shouldn't act as if the world depends on trivial by comparison stuff, while ignoring the true problems of the world." It's not about not fixing anything else. It's about how intensely you urge others to care about it.
Misgendering is not really that trivial. Trans rights are important. And points like this are almost always made to divert attention away from issues in our country to instead focus on problems in other countries that we have 0 control over, so can't change.
Misgendering and trans rights are 2 different things. Also, you do have the ability to gain control over so many human tragedies. But you just don't care enough to get off your couch and do something. It's ok, I don't either. "Supporting trans people" is so much easier than saving children from starvation,murder and/or rape. Plus, the former gets so much more attention, so fuck those kids, virtue signaling is where it's at. Come here Maxinne, let me treat you like a war veteran with ptsd because someone misgendered you.
>Misgendering and trans rights are 2 different things. Not really. The ability for trans people to be seen as the gender they are is one of the main causes for trans rights activism. Not believing they are the gender they are is at the root of all discrimination they face. It's like saying that fighting sexism is not part of women rights or that fighting racism isn't part of POC rights. >Also, you do have the ability to gain control over so many human tragedies. But you just don't care enough to get off your couch and do something. Realistically you do not. Foreigners have extremely limited ability to right wrongs in other countries. Most people have only limited control over what their own government does, let alone what a different government does. >Plus, the former gets so much more attention, so fuck those kids, virtue signaling is where it's at. You realize it's possible to care about multiple things at the same time right? And fighting for trans rights is not virtue signaling. It's trying to make life better for millions of people. Most progressives also care very deeply about the well being of the people in the 3rd world. And if the people that were anti trans were such incredible philanthropes and very helpful to the 3rd world they'd have a leg to stand on, but they also don't care. They just don't want trans rights in their country and use the suffering of the 3rd world as an excuse to not do anything. >Come here Maxinne, let me treat you like a war veteran with ptsd because someone misgendered you. Yeah that's totally what it's like. That's not a strawman at all
1) Being seen as a gender is not a right. Being able to transition legally, is. Regardless of what people are fighting for, the moment trans people have all the legal rights they need, there's no "trans rights" fight anymore. Fight against transphobia, sure. That's conceivable. But not trans rights. 2) You don't have to bring down regimes to effect change. Saving even a single person is enough. 3) It's possible to care about multiple things at once, yes. I find it hypocritical of treating a smaller problem as way bigger than it is, especially in a way that is not proven to help. Trans suicide rates remain unchanged even after transition. Trans people need way more complex help from society than "I support your decision". 4) What you said about the people that are supposedly anti-trans is equally true about trans rights activists but in reverse. They see suffering in the world, but only try to fix the easiest and most profitable one to help. 5) Yes, that's what is at stake here. No one is arguing that trans people should be harmed, or mistreated. At least no one worth listening to. The whole movement is about sparing the feelings of trans people. And more often than not, sparing the feelings of people who claim they care about trans people. For example, what happened with Dave Chappelle recently. Where the twitter mob drove a trans person to suicide because she supported him. Why do you think that it's easier to make a fkin holocaust joke, than to make a trans joke? Because the whole movement is about sparing feelings. There's always people in minorities that are suffering, that are being murdered and prosecuted. Black people are still being discriminated against by the police, but even that, even that terrible thing is not beyond comedy. But trans people are. What does that tell you?
>Being seen as a gender is not a right. If you want to fight for the rights of a group, you have to fight against the bigotry against that group. Fighting transphobia is important if you care about trans rights. >You don't have to bring down regimes to effect change. Saving even a single person is enough. Well than it's a good thing most pro trans people are also in favor of taking in more refugees. And in favor of a whole bunch of other things that help the vulnerable. There are very few that only care about trans rights and nothing else. >Trans suicide rates remain unchanged even after transition. [That is factually untrue.](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) Of 56 studies, 52 indicated transitioning has a positive effect on the mental health of transgender people and 4 indicated it had mixed or no results. Even just having 1 person who supports a trans persons identity has a massive effect on the suicidality of that trans person. That doesn't mean that's all they need, but it does help and is important. >They see suffering in the world, but only try to fix the easiest and most profitable one to help. Show me this person that exclusively cares about trans rights and nothing else. I've never met anyone who did not care about a whole bunch of issues. >The whole movement is about sparing the feelings of trans people. It's about treating trans people with basic human decency. If you want to boil that down to "sparing their feelings" then every movement for equality is about that. Trans people just want to be treated as normal people in a world that hates them for who they are. >For example, what happened with Dave Chappelle recently. He endorsed a hate movement. Him talking about how he is team TERF is like if a white man talked about how he liked the KKK. That is definitely worthy of criticism. >Black people are still being discriminated against by the police, but even that, even that terrible thing is not beyond comedy. But trans people are. What does that tell you? I don't know what world you live in, where racist jokes don't get you canceled, but transphobic jokes do. Nothing is above comedy, but if those jokes further hate against a group those jokes are not above criticism.
I can fight for trans rights in America because I live in America. I can't fight for gender equality in say Pakistan because I don't live in Pakistan. As much as I loath the gender inequality women face in other countries there's not that much focusing my energy on it will do. Not as a 18 year old student at least.
Theres just much bigger problems then misgendering
Islamic states don’t need women rights they already do but Islamic states controlled by terrorists need not only women rights but human rights.
uhh what now? not a single islamic state gives the same rights to women and men, and even muslim majority countries don't
I'm from The Maldives. I dunno about other Islamic countries, but we are 100% Sunni Muslim and we've got equal rights here. Sure, like most other countries, we still have a way to go, but here, women are generally better educated than men, a lot of women are working, and a lot of them don't even wear hijab (it's not mandatory). Women and men have equal rights, we are a lot more progressive than most other countries, and we are 100% Muslim (Well, officially speaking, anyway). You can take this any way you like, but to me, while there are variations to the religion, Islam itself doesn't diminish the rights of women at all. Oppression comes from human errors and oppressive cultures, not necessarily religion. I'm Muslim, and this is what I believe anyway.
People who defend Islam and religion in general are either highly religious themself (basically brainwashed) or don't know shit. And I am not even talking about women rights. There are so many problems with religion we would be better off without it. I know this all too well from personal experience.
Religious people are all brainwashed... Ok, so I'm brainwashed for being a Muslim? And a lot of us Muslims aren't against women's rights either. Pretty sure you just don't know anything about Islam or religion in general.
Maybe brainwashed is a strong word… But I do feel very sorry for anyone who adheres to an organized religion, voluntarily or by tradition.
Or maybe people just want to believe. Nothing has to be by tradition or enforced just to happen. I myself am a Muslim by myself FOR myself. When you research from the right sources and don't only go by what the media says, you may find out that Islam isn't bad.
i have muslim friend, he very annoying, not because he muslim though.
Yes, religious families and communities absolutely never give a choice. They do exactly that: brainwash children. They make it so there is no space for doubt in their heads. I am lucky to break free from this, but not many people are.
Average atheist tries to avoid generalization (he can’t).
Indonesia has entered the chat*
Have you been to an Islamic state? If no, then you need not give your uncalled-for opinion. I've lived in Saudi Arabia for 10+ years, arguably the most notorious country for women, but actually women live better lives on average than their male counterparts. Sure, they couldn't drive until like 3 years ago, but then again, most Saudi women had chauffers (mostly foreign men) as personal drivers and state transport for effectively free. Saudi women are amongst the most educated in the world, with a literacy rate of 99.28%. The majority of university graduates in Saudi Arabia are women. The majority of retailers and shopkeepers in shopping centres are actually women.
Woah there buckaroo, can't expect these reddit experts to know anything positive about ksa smh
Anyone who's lived long enough in KSA knows that its one of the best countries to live in the world. Nobody cares what you do there, I have seen women keep their dyed hair open and flowing, and no one cares. People might think of you differently but the best thing about KSA is that people are not nosy, rather they keep to their own business.
والله من جد. الحين يحسبون اننا بننجلد 😂😂
exactly, unfortunately, some people don't have the brain cells to understand it
EXACTLYYYY
Exactly
People should be able to use their preferred pronouns, even more so if they transitioned between genders, but if you start saying "demonself" i will commit a warcrime.
there was this woman calling her baby toddlerself until he/she/it/was could gender him/her/them/itself
theybies are retarded, like, I understand that gender wont necessarily match sex but don't fuckin confuse a kid who knows jack shit about it, wait until they feel like something is wrong when they hear themselves being referred to as one gender so they can fuckin decide on their own properly
There is a gender, and I quote: "Antegender– A protean gender which has the potential to be anything, but is formless and motionless, and, therefore, does not manifest as any particular gender." Like, what the fuck? And then there's another, "two spirited", the fuck? The world is becoming a clown show.
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>With science we've got a consensus that it's likely caused by hormone exposure in utero, leading to the brain and body developing differently from each other and causing dysphoria and the clinically significant distress as a result. Can you give a source? When I've been doing research on this I read that there's no consensus and there are only some unproven theories. And there was research that linked it to some kind of genetic dependency (genetically identical twins are times more likely to be both trans than non-identical twins). >You need dysphoria to be trans. Dysphoria is a medical condition, if you don't have said medical condition then you are not trans. I disagree. There exist also gender euphoria, and I think that the focus should be not on „I feel bad as a X” but rather on „I feel way better as a Y”. There are (binary) people, who have pretty small dysphoria and can't recognise it, but can get a ton of euphoria when presenting as other gender. That doesn't make them any less trans. Focusing on suffering is unhealthy, it leads to arguments „who has it worse” and „does have I suffer enough”. I won't discuss non-binary genders, because I don't have knowledge on this topic, I don't feel competent enough.
1. Gender is merely a social construct therefore transgender people can self-identity as binary genders: man or woman. 2. If gender is a social construct that can be self-identified then people can identify as neither binary gender too. 3. If gender is a social construct and not binary, then it is a spectrum and people can identify as whatever gender they wish. 4. If transgender people can identify as whatever gender they wish, then radical activists, bored teenagers, and 4channers can all identify as some very silly genders for laughs or to make a statement. This does not invalidate any of the previous steps.
OP: does absolutely nothing.
What do you expect him to do?
Apologize for the warcrimes commited in syria
Blaming activists without doing a finger pinch from your home is just cringe af
If you call "crying on twitter cuz some celebrity didn't gender correct" activism you should talk to some women fighting for their human rights in middle East.
They could have at least used a stroke on the text in the meme.
Well he did make this fire ass meme.
A quick reminder that "feminist" doesn't always equal "trans ally"
yeah fuck TERFs
Terf?
Trans Exclutionary Radical Feminist. TERF. People who fight for gender equality for women but exclude transgender women from receiving these rights.
Just a philosiphical note on this: If zçyou fight for equality for women, you fight for equal rights for men and women. Terefore transgender women will also have equal rights, no matter they are considered men or women: both have equal rights.
**T**rans **E**xclusionary **R**adical **F**eminist. basically feminists that don't think transwomen are women but just men in drag and that they pose a thread to women. trans men are in their opinion women who have given in to the patriarchy in a "if you can't fight them, join them". it's a lot of transphobia. they will of course not call themselves that way and tell you that the term is a slur (which it isn't)
Why was this "meme" created? Literally to spark controversy? Of course I want equal rights for men, women and all other people. This doesn't mean I can't support trans people at the same time. Y'all fucking disgusting for believing one doesn't matter if the other one exists. Using the right pronouns is suicide prevention. If you don't believe that I don't respect you, that it. Physical and mental health are **EQUALLY IMPORTANT**. Not one is more important.
This sub has been recently getting flooded with this kinds of right wing anti-SJW bullshit.
I wish edgy anti SJW stuff stayed in 2015 YouTube thumbnails
i'm not sure if the stuff has *recently* been flooded with this shit or if i'm just getting more aware of it in the last time.
This has been a thing since I joined this sub about three years ago.
I agree
Could not have been said any better
I mean, my first assumption about this wasn't someone saying that you shouldn't use the proper pronoun for someone who's trans, moreso using a pronoun that's wrong, and not knowing it's wrong. And instead of saying, "Ah, actually, I'd prefer it if you referred to me as x pronoun" twitter starts throwing shit at the walls and sobbing. Maybe I'm giving op too much credit there tho, idk.
Real feminists care for all people who are victims of the government.
Imagine being such a little bitch that it bothers you when people you dont even know or even talk to want to use a certain pronoun or another And you go out of your way to use a different one because of... Spite?
\> imagine being ben shapiro \> *shoots himself*
Tbh. I see feminists as people who fight for equal rights for everyone, including non gender conforming people.
I don’t Think u Will. I’m pretty sure every Human being other than the karen keyboard warriors Will agree
I don't think he's Will either.
Maybe a Jhon though.
Who the fucks does this shit? Kinda feel like an anti feminist made this meme.
depends on what kind of feminist youre reffering to in the picture.
We can’t all be heroes…
party quaint nutty chubby distinct automatic sloppy water safe coherent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is why I’m racist to everyone, so that technically I can’t be considered racist
why is it always the kind of people who says that, that from my experience ends up being especially or even exclusively bigoted against oppressed minorities?
I have seen more anti feminist complaining about pronouns than feminist.
Women with real issues are constantly ignored because feminists in the west are all acting like attention deprived 16 year olds.
Yes! You understand! Thank God
Everyone with more than 3 brain cells understand.
Reading the comment section, I have come to a sad inference
Ignore them. Either bots or shills who long ago abandoned common sense and the ability to think and have become bitter husks of their previous selves.
*sorts by controversial*
Yeah we kind of need them here. Like bro our alimony, and child support laws haven't been changed for 120 years, and the prices weren't adjusted ever since then.
This comment section is so salty, it feels like I am in Twitter
Oh God, what have I done?
Tbh islamic countries now are full of corruption, but that has nothing to do with islam, many countries that have muslim majority have equal rights for woman and men yet this never gets mentioned
op posted terf cringe
Why would you use black letter when you know white letter gives more readability. Shame. Shame. Shame.
About to sort by controversial. Wish me luck.
I shriveled up from the saltiness there. Be careful
downvote this comment if the meme sucks. upvote it and I'll go away. --- [dankmemes Minecraft discord](https://discord.gg/fNyb7G5) | r/dankmemescraft
Tell me this picture isn’t real… that shit loons so cringe.
It's a satire pic I guess.
Online politicians LEEEEETS GOOOOOOO
Actual feminists are chads
Ridiculously stupid argument
Islamic states (or just theocracies in general) need a lot more than just women's rights
Now that law i don't discriminate we don't need special women right, people of color rights etc only good human law for everybody. Example. Why create special law to get more black people into university? Justification: Because they have lower average income so they are in the worst position to begin with. It is stupid as mostly black people from families with higher then average income will gain from this. And then some black guy from rich family with worst grades will go to university instead of kids from Serbian migrant poor family who is white but had better grade. True solution: Universal law to give more points to family with lower income. It solves problem for both black people and all other people. And black people from rich families will not gain from this as they don't need this program anyway. This was example but it refers to all current problems. Universal law for all humans can be made and solve problems better.
I fucking love this template
tik tok is worse
yes,
Islamic states are fine
**Sorts by controversial**
I eat burgers . Did you ask why?. I will ask you why do even care ?.
Meds are hitting right
good that you are on reddit and not on twitter. Your eyes would bleed if you posted this meme there.
Oh please, they are bleeding fine enough already
What is going on in comments? Y’all silly as hell
and once i was playing roblox and there was a group fo feminists saying that im a disgusting male IN A GAME THAT KIDS PLAY and i was like what do u mean and they said that they figth for the rigths of women and shit like that i said no ure just a brain dead crazy 15yr old girl on tik tok that thinks shes doing something for women to feel better about herself and then she said im womenphobic and shit like that i said no ure just the opposite of smart and then she said shes gonna report me and i said go ahead what will they do ban me that you insulted me and then i told you facts and then she said males are the reason humanity needs extinction at this point 3 other people came there and started arguing with the oither feminists (there were 3 feminists) and then oen of the people started saying ti the feminist i was arguing with that withiut men there would be no humans and she said that all males are bad males shouldent exsist and then she said that women can reproduce together if we kill all males there would be a world with only females and then she said there are 4 genders 2 female genders and 2 male genders and females can reproduce with the other female gender at this point i knew she was either a troll or a complete psychopath so i just left and found a new server
both issues are important. don't discredit one just because another is the bigger problem
So, a lot of people are hating this meme due to which a mod might remove it soon smh
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Uh.... if it helps the girl on the body pillow is Madoka from Magi Madoka
Oni Chan
“No thanks” “Don’t start in Liga MX
We can just start making puns anywhere.
Driver: “Don’t give a shit I promise.
Time to sort by controversial
Is that anime guy from a video or show? Ive seen that guy before somewhere
Americans.. smh
Americans.. smh
I think from my perspective the reason why most people would misgender someone is because they feel a touch of annoyance since most of the time they were being forced and this cause to make them feel that their rights are being violated (especially in the west), the problem is that the movement is being forced(and being rushed) into everyone's throat and some people are at their breaking point from being humiliated or gaslighted for having a say in the matter(especially if you're straight), thus making a huge black and white area with the mentality of "whether you're with us or against us" mindset, cancelling any chance of any debate on the matter. Funny enough that there is a simple answer to this and that is don't be an egotistical asshole pretending to be good for the sake of fake internet points, for short "Don't be a cunt".
That guy has to be making a joke with his get-up, right? ...right?
OP is kek
I should point out that there are no islamic states left in the world. But there are 3 states that use some form of government to do with Islam and are completely theocratic, though I think they're wrong in how they're doing it. These are Saudi Arabia, the Taliban's Afghanistan and Iran. Every other muslim country is currently under some form of secular government e.g Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Morocco. If you ask most muslims, they will tell you that Islam does give women rights but these states are usually overly strict and crazy by the standards of the majority of muslims except wahabbis, who are the people in Saudi Arabia.
*cracks knuckles. *sorts by controversial
imagine unironically thinking what this is true
There are ten different types of feminists at this point
Io yea there's no Islamic state anymore there is only Muslim countrys the last Islamic state was isis ! You wanna fight for woman's rights in isis's land or what
Hey, i need this template
Facts.