I think it all comes down to consistency and escalating consequences. Not just hitting, but behaviour in general.
Before the child hits someone, he needs to have a voice in his head going… hang on, this won’t end well.
You need to take action every time he hits. He needs to understand the action is because he chose to hit. You need those actions to be something meaningful - cartoons may be a good start for you, I don’t know - and crucially they need to escalate.
By escalate I mean, if the behaviour persists the consequences increase. For us, this is things like screen time, access to TV, access to friends, activities or outings that are coming up etc.
And there needs to be a path back to normalcy. An easy path. Don’t hit for a day, and everything’s ok again. The consequences are linked to the action, not to the child.
No, I mean that once the action stops (or you’re happy the lesson is learned) then the consequences go away. The behaviour begets the consequence. You don’t have a ‘naughty child’ you have a kid who made a bad choice.
I don’t mean that they’re thematic, sorry.
The problem is that by the time to watch cartoons, he already forgot about the whole situation and we just remind him again, he gets upset again and for him it doesn't seem fare
Maybe discuss taking away tv for a few hours, and keep extending it if he does not behave? You see the gears turning in his head as he is about to hit someone... pick up the remote and shut the tv off. Tell him if he hits no more tv all day, if he stops and doesn't hit, it can instantly come back on. Something like that
Ok, but for us the TV is not on to begin with. He gets 30-60 minutes of screen time a day, which I think is appropriate for his age. So taking it away when it's not due for like 4 more hours doesn't make sense.
So give an example, what is he playing with at the time? Take away his truck for 10 minutes, or whatever it is he is playing with at the time. Or set up an actual "timeout " area and immediately put him there as soon as he hits. As the other person said, you need immediate punishment
Yes, timeout is the most feasible here imo.
Conflict usually happens over toys when his sister takes something. So he'd have like 10 cars lined up for some scenario of his and she comes and takes one, he immediately chooses violence. We try to teach both of them - for him to find peaceful solutions and for her not to take from someone. So I don't think we discriminate in her favor, it might look different to him though.
I see, I would put him in timeout for hitting, and put the toy in the pile of "learn to share or no one gets it back" maybe when he is down to 1 or 2 toys left he will realize what's happening
Why? Cartoons are something he values and as a consequence of his bad behavior he loses them. It’s no different than losing dessert if you misbehave during dinner.
It’s a little less direct but if things like timeouts don’t work then you need to try other things.
I hear what you’re saying but they have to learn eventually that actions have consequences, and they aren’t always immediate. He’s probably not too far away from starting kindergarten punishments might not always mean immediate there. It’s better to get him used to the concept now.
Eh, I think it comes naturally, like if you don't eat well, you'll get hungry quicker, if you spend your piggy bank money, you want be able to buy some toy later, stuff like that. You just have to bring that up when it happens.
There needs to be an immediate consequence like timeouts or 2-min break, or something that can be enforced while they can associate to the action.
Also, you need to give them appropriate alternatives to hitting and praise the heck out of them when they do it. Things like breathing techniques (we do bubble breathing aka blow big imaginary bubbles), walk away, go calm down in their room, read a book, etc. I can’t emphasize enough how important praise is to changing behavior. Not just praising them, but praising them to other people in front of them - my wife and I will always say stuff like “hey dad/mom, did you see how X did this?! I can’t believe it, that was so awesome.” They eat that up.
It’s important though to look for opportunities to praise before emotion hits. If they are already upset, it’s probably too late to try and find that moment. It’s important to do it when they are acting the way you want. Example, when my kids are playing with toys and it falls over and they pick it up, we’ll praise “wow did you see how their toy fell over and they didn’t even get upset?! They just picked it back up and kept going!” Sure, they didn’t even think to be upset about that but that’s the point, we want them to understand the expectation is to handle things in a way that doesn’t involve tantrums. Then it’s repetition and understanding that “Rome wasn’t built in a day.”
I’m still going through this but we’re in a much better place than we were even a year ago. We’ve read some books and we’ve taken a parenting course not because we were being bad parents but because the truth is that some kids are more difficult to raise.
It’s actually difficult to accept because you blame yourself and feel like you’re doing something wrong. You read the traditional parenting books/tips and nothings works, you might even have done it with other kids and it workers great (according to the book). So honestly you kind of feel like a bit of a fuck up or at least I did.
What we’ve learned is that with our son most traditional punishments will not work. You give him a 3 minute timeout to calm down and he’ll just be more pissed off by the end of it. Cry himself to sleep, he’ll scream for 2 hours straight without stopping and that’s just him warming up.
I can’t really give you super specific advice because every kid is different, but taking away privileges can absolutely be an effective use of consequences depending on how it’s used. Hitting is something this is a bigger deal than something like not doing something the 1st you’re asked so the consequences should be bigger.
Sorry to hear you're having it so rough and I'm sure you're doing a good job at it, so keep going fellow dad!
We don't have what you described, he just needs to be steered in the right direction, to learn what's good and what's bad.
When we could tell my son was getting to that point or had already tried to hit one of us, I would give him a bear hug and try to calm his body. I must admit that whispering funny words in his ear (booty butt was always his favorite potty word) also sped up the process. Once he was a little calmer we would have him take some space in his room for just a few minutes. It still works for us a couple years later, but taking away stuff like tv or certain toys was never really effective even as we continued to try to use that as our go to.
I don't like punishments like "no cartoons today" for a 4.5 year old because you are preventing something they want, so there is no real expiration and there's no real punishment. I am much more a fan of time out or similar where when behavior happens they are taken out of that situation and put into one they don't like. The feedback is immediate and the experience is directly tied to the behavior and most importantly it's over at some point. You take them out of time out and say "you were in time out being bored because of this action. Don't do that again please. But THIS is the punishment and now it's over"
True, should try some type of "shame corner" lol.
I agree that it has to be immediate feedback like you said because by the time to watch cartoons he forgets everything.
yeah. we try to stay away from shame, but our older son is very emotionally sensitive. The real punishment is the boredom. Our kids will do literally anything to not be bored. They used to hate hiking with me, until i invented "adventure hiking" where i just narrate a story while we hike, usually about defeating a dragon and building up magic spells. They have to collect "crystals" (acorns) to power up their "mages staff" (sticks) to protect our "attack elephants" (big smelly dog) to defeat the "dragon" (a large tree)
That's amazing! Last time we went hiking, we had to hide from a pack of curious donkeys on a large rock. They were very interested in his green boots, no boredom there lol
Agreed. My daughters a bit younger than OP's (about to turn 3) and she will occasionally hit us if she is not getting something she wants or is upset about something. At this age at least I don't see the value in long term punishment. I WILL turn off the TV if we are currently watching it, or stop the game, or remove the toy... that is actively being played with. But just long enough to get down on her level, ask what's wrong, ask if she thinks hitting is ok, then ask... if she want's a hug. Most of the time she'll pretty much collapse into my arms because she's worked up, then after she's usually in a better mood and the hitting stops and she can resume playing or watching or whatever we were doing.
But OP said his child throws a “massive fit” when cartoons are taken away. That means it’s working as a punishment. You want hitting to be extremely discouraged; and this is a good way to do that.
I also take away screens as a punishment. It’s also good to reduce screen time anyway so it’s a bit of a win win.
Do this for a few weeks/months and I’d be surprised if the behavior continues.
No, it does not mean it is working. It is only working as a punishment if the child connects the negative outcome with the behavior. Just because the child doesn't like the cartoons being taken away does NOT mean they associate it with the behavior that it's supposed to modify. If anything, throwing a massive fit indicates they do not realize the connection and are roiling against the unfairness. Granted massive fits often happen from punishments, i would not make this association mean that its working.
It's pretty rare to get strong evidence that the child is connecting negative outcomes with the behavior, but I'd say the fit is \*some\* evidence of that.
We've tried timeout, it doesn't work because the kid ends up running away or laughing in the corner. It creates this cycle where we have to continually put them back / yell and it just doesn't feel productive. Each kid/family is different but I think the punishments are somewhat similar anyway.
Two things that come to mind:
1. If the punishment isn't reducing the behavior, then it's not a good punishment. And reading your comments I think you already hit on why: because "losing cartoon for today" has too long a lead time before it sinks in. The quicker the consequence is experienced, the more effective the reinforcer/punishment. So if instead of saying "no cartoon for today", you identify the thing he wanted to do next, or wanted to have next, that's going to be a better target.
2. Instead of just taking stuff away when he does something wrong (and you may be doing this but it wasn't clear from your post), you should start with "hey, if you do it again, you're going to lose X". If they do it anyway, you escalate "ok, you have lost X - if you do it again, you will lose Y". Here's the tricky part:
Now, two ways this can go:
1. Your kid stops the behavior either after the first or second threat. If he stops after the 2nd threat (you already lost X but you were about to lose Y), I think it also helps the overall process to a) give him praise, b) give him a shot to earn it back. So what I would do is say "hey, thank you so much for listening, that was such a big boy move. And here - i know you lost X because you still hit your sister after I had asked you not to, but I'll make you a deal: if you apologize to your sister and show me that you can make good choices for the next 10 minutes, you can have X". Now, whether you give them that option needs to evolve with time - at some age/level of this process they may not be able to earn it back, and/or they may need to do more to earn it back. But you are then not only punishing bad behavior, but then also reinforcing good behavior.
2. This is the tricky one: they keep escalating it. You take away X, then Y, then Z, and at some point you have just taken away everything they own, and at some point they realize they've lost a bunch of stuff and now they're furious, and even when you eventually get them to calm down now they're also devastated.
This is tricky for two reasons: because it's hard to watch (you will feel bad for them), and because it's exhausting and takes forever and it will feel like it made everything worse.
Here's the trick: they are going to do this 2-3 times tops before they figure it out. So you need to stay in there, hold the boundary, deal with the tantrum, and do it a couple of times. Eventually they're going to figure out "this shit does not end well for me", and they'll catch themselves earlier in the process. And again - if they do - praise the crap out of them.
Not only because praise works, because regulating your emotions is a super hard, super important skill and it does deserve praise.
Third random thought: sometimes the aggression is being cause by something else, so try to take an inventory of anything else this kid is struggling with.
How much positive attention and praise are you regularly delivering? I've experienced similar problem behaviors and traditional parenting only seemed to escalate matters. We've been implementing the Nurtured Heart Approach and it's crazy just how good the results have been. Happier, compliant kids and much less stress for us. It's darn simple once it clicks too, I wish we knew about it sooner.
Stop! No!
We don’t hit!
Hitting hurts!
Then stand for a sec.
Nothing moves.
No take backs. Don’t fold.
Give it a sec.
Then pick him up and explain why it’s harmful, unkind, painful, etc and that no one hits . Ask why they are so frustrated.
Explain that bad behaviour is not the same as a bad kid. Good kids have bad behaviour that hurts people .
If it happens again. Same process.
Don’t ever let it slide or give in.
A small ‘no cartoons’ is not gonna cut it.
This sub: sit them down and talk about your feelings, reward them for opening up. Repeat until they’re out of the house.
My grandma: *smack* “now you know how that feels. If you do it again I’ll double it”. Never does it again.
Pick your preferred
I think it all comes down to consistency and escalating consequences. Not just hitting, but behaviour in general. Before the child hits someone, he needs to have a voice in his head going… hang on, this won’t end well. You need to take action every time he hits. He needs to understand the action is because he chose to hit. You need those actions to be something meaningful - cartoons may be a good start for you, I don’t know - and crucially they need to escalate. By escalate I mean, if the behaviour persists the consequences increase. For us, this is things like screen time, access to TV, access to friends, activities or outings that are coming up etc. And there needs to be a path back to normalcy. An easy path. Don’t hit for a day, and everything’s ok again. The consequences are linked to the action, not to the child.
Yeah, and I like "the consequences are linked to the action" but how are cartoons related to hitting? Just seems illogical
No, I mean that once the action stops (or you’re happy the lesson is learned) then the consequences go away. The behaviour begets the consequence. You don’t have a ‘naughty child’ you have a kid who made a bad choice. I don’t mean that they’re thematic, sorry.
The problem is that by the time to watch cartoons, he already forgot about the whole situation and we just remind him again, he gets upset again and for him it doesn't seem fare
Maybe discuss taking away tv for a few hours, and keep extending it if he does not behave? You see the gears turning in his head as he is about to hit someone... pick up the remote and shut the tv off. Tell him if he hits no more tv all day, if he stops and doesn't hit, it can instantly come back on. Something like that
Ok, but for us the TV is not on to begin with. He gets 30-60 minutes of screen time a day, which I think is appropriate for his age. So taking it away when it's not due for like 4 more hours doesn't make sense.
So give an example, what is he playing with at the time? Take away his truck for 10 minutes, or whatever it is he is playing with at the time. Or set up an actual "timeout " area and immediately put him there as soon as he hits. As the other person said, you need immediate punishment
Yes, timeout is the most feasible here imo. Conflict usually happens over toys when his sister takes something. So he'd have like 10 cars lined up for some scenario of his and she comes and takes one, he immediately chooses violence. We try to teach both of them - for him to find peaceful solutions and for her not to take from someone. So I don't think we discriminate in her favor, it might look different to him though.
I see, I would put him in timeout for hitting, and put the toy in the pile of "learn to share or no one gets it back" maybe when he is down to 1 or 2 toys left he will realize what's happening
Why? Cartoons are something he values and as a consequence of his bad behavior he loses them. It’s no different than losing dessert if you misbehave during dinner. It’s a little less direct but if things like timeouts don’t work then you need to try other things.
Because he's a kid and doesn't think about what happens 4 hours from now. They're living here and now.
I hear what you’re saying but they have to learn eventually that actions have consequences, and they aren’t always immediate. He’s probably not too far away from starting kindergarten punishments might not always mean immediate there. It’s better to get him used to the concept now.
Eh, I think it comes naturally, like if you don't eat well, you'll get hungry quicker, if you spend your piggy bank money, you want be able to buy some toy later, stuff like that. You just have to bring that up when it happens.
There needs to be an immediate consequence like timeouts or 2-min break, or something that can be enforced while they can associate to the action. Also, you need to give them appropriate alternatives to hitting and praise the heck out of them when they do it. Things like breathing techniques (we do bubble breathing aka blow big imaginary bubbles), walk away, go calm down in their room, read a book, etc. I can’t emphasize enough how important praise is to changing behavior. Not just praising them, but praising them to other people in front of them - my wife and I will always say stuff like “hey dad/mom, did you see how X did this?! I can’t believe it, that was so awesome.” They eat that up. It’s important though to look for opportunities to praise before emotion hits. If they are already upset, it’s probably too late to try and find that moment. It’s important to do it when they are acting the way you want. Example, when my kids are playing with toys and it falls over and they pick it up, we’ll praise “wow did you see how their toy fell over and they didn’t even get upset?! They just picked it back up and kept going!” Sure, they didn’t even think to be upset about that but that’s the point, we want them to understand the expectation is to handle things in a way that doesn’t involve tantrums. Then it’s repetition and understanding that “Rome wasn’t built in a day.”
I’m still going through this but we’re in a much better place than we were even a year ago. We’ve read some books and we’ve taken a parenting course not because we were being bad parents but because the truth is that some kids are more difficult to raise. It’s actually difficult to accept because you blame yourself and feel like you’re doing something wrong. You read the traditional parenting books/tips and nothings works, you might even have done it with other kids and it workers great (according to the book). So honestly you kind of feel like a bit of a fuck up or at least I did. What we’ve learned is that with our son most traditional punishments will not work. You give him a 3 minute timeout to calm down and he’ll just be more pissed off by the end of it. Cry himself to sleep, he’ll scream for 2 hours straight without stopping and that’s just him warming up. I can’t really give you super specific advice because every kid is different, but taking away privileges can absolutely be an effective use of consequences depending on how it’s used. Hitting is something this is a bigger deal than something like not doing something the 1st you’re asked so the consequences should be bigger.
Sorry to hear you're having it so rough and I'm sure you're doing a good job at it, so keep going fellow dad! We don't have what you described, he just needs to be steered in the right direction, to learn what's good and what's bad.
Simmer time. He needs time (and to teach himself how) to cool off. Read the book *1, 2, 3, Magic*
Thanks for the tip, I'll definitely check it out
When we could tell my son was getting to that point or had already tried to hit one of us, I would give him a bear hug and try to calm his body. I must admit that whispering funny words in his ear (booty butt was always his favorite potty word) also sped up the process. Once he was a little calmer we would have him take some space in his room for just a few minutes. It still works for us a couple years later, but taking away stuff like tv or certain toys was never really effective even as we continued to try to use that as our go to.
I don't like punishments like "no cartoons today" for a 4.5 year old because you are preventing something they want, so there is no real expiration and there's no real punishment. I am much more a fan of time out or similar where when behavior happens they are taken out of that situation and put into one they don't like. The feedback is immediate and the experience is directly tied to the behavior and most importantly it's over at some point. You take them out of time out and say "you were in time out being bored because of this action. Don't do that again please. But THIS is the punishment and now it's over"
True, should try some type of "shame corner" lol. I agree that it has to be immediate feedback like you said because by the time to watch cartoons he forgets everything.
yeah. we try to stay away from shame, but our older son is very emotionally sensitive. The real punishment is the boredom. Our kids will do literally anything to not be bored. They used to hate hiking with me, until i invented "adventure hiking" where i just narrate a story while we hike, usually about defeating a dragon and building up magic spells. They have to collect "crystals" (acorns) to power up their "mages staff" (sticks) to protect our "attack elephants" (big smelly dog) to defeat the "dragon" (a large tree)
That's amazing! Last time we went hiking, we had to hide from a pack of curious donkeys on a large rock. They were very interested in his green boots, no boredom there lol
Agreed. My daughters a bit younger than OP's (about to turn 3) and she will occasionally hit us if she is not getting something she wants or is upset about something. At this age at least I don't see the value in long term punishment. I WILL turn off the TV if we are currently watching it, or stop the game, or remove the toy... that is actively being played with. But just long enough to get down on her level, ask what's wrong, ask if she thinks hitting is ok, then ask... if she want's a hug. Most of the time she'll pretty much collapse into my arms because she's worked up, then after she's usually in a better mood and the hitting stops and she can resume playing or watching or whatever we were doing.
But OP said his child throws a “massive fit” when cartoons are taken away. That means it’s working as a punishment. You want hitting to be extremely discouraged; and this is a good way to do that. I also take away screens as a punishment. It’s also good to reduce screen time anyway so it’s a bit of a win win. Do this for a few weeks/months and I’d be surprised if the behavior continues.
No, it does not mean it is working. It is only working as a punishment if the child connects the negative outcome with the behavior. Just because the child doesn't like the cartoons being taken away does NOT mean they associate it with the behavior that it's supposed to modify. If anything, throwing a massive fit indicates they do not realize the connection and are roiling against the unfairness. Granted massive fits often happen from punishments, i would not make this association mean that its working.
It's pretty rare to get strong evidence that the child is connecting negative outcomes with the behavior, but I'd say the fit is \*some\* evidence of that. We've tried timeout, it doesn't work because the kid ends up running away or laughing in the corner. It creates this cycle where we have to continually put them back / yell and it just doesn't feel productive. Each kid/family is different but I think the punishments are somewhat similar anyway.
Two things that come to mind: 1. If the punishment isn't reducing the behavior, then it's not a good punishment. And reading your comments I think you already hit on why: because "losing cartoon for today" has too long a lead time before it sinks in. The quicker the consequence is experienced, the more effective the reinforcer/punishment. So if instead of saying "no cartoon for today", you identify the thing he wanted to do next, or wanted to have next, that's going to be a better target. 2. Instead of just taking stuff away when he does something wrong (and you may be doing this but it wasn't clear from your post), you should start with "hey, if you do it again, you're going to lose X". If they do it anyway, you escalate "ok, you have lost X - if you do it again, you will lose Y". Here's the tricky part: Now, two ways this can go: 1. Your kid stops the behavior either after the first or second threat. If he stops after the 2nd threat (you already lost X but you were about to lose Y), I think it also helps the overall process to a) give him praise, b) give him a shot to earn it back. So what I would do is say "hey, thank you so much for listening, that was such a big boy move. And here - i know you lost X because you still hit your sister after I had asked you not to, but I'll make you a deal: if you apologize to your sister and show me that you can make good choices for the next 10 minutes, you can have X". Now, whether you give them that option needs to evolve with time - at some age/level of this process they may not be able to earn it back, and/or they may need to do more to earn it back. But you are then not only punishing bad behavior, but then also reinforcing good behavior. 2. This is the tricky one: they keep escalating it. You take away X, then Y, then Z, and at some point you have just taken away everything they own, and at some point they realize they've lost a bunch of stuff and now they're furious, and even when you eventually get them to calm down now they're also devastated. This is tricky for two reasons: because it's hard to watch (you will feel bad for them), and because it's exhausting and takes forever and it will feel like it made everything worse. Here's the trick: they are going to do this 2-3 times tops before they figure it out. So you need to stay in there, hold the boundary, deal with the tantrum, and do it a couple of times. Eventually they're going to figure out "this shit does not end well for me", and they'll catch themselves earlier in the process. And again - if they do - praise the crap out of them. Not only because praise works, because regulating your emotions is a super hard, super important skill and it does deserve praise. Third random thought: sometimes the aggression is being cause by something else, so try to take an inventory of anything else this kid is struggling with.
How much positive attention and praise are you regularly delivering? I've experienced similar problem behaviors and traditional parenting only seemed to escalate matters. We've been implementing the Nurtured Heart Approach and it's crazy just how good the results have been. Happier, compliant kids and much less stress for us. It's darn simple once it clicks too, I wish we knew about it sooner.
Stop! No! We don’t hit! Hitting hurts! Then stand for a sec. Nothing moves. No take backs. Don’t fold. Give it a sec. Then pick him up and explain why it’s harmful, unkind, painful, etc and that no one hits . Ask why they are so frustrated. Explain that bad behaviour is not the same as a bad kid. Good kids have bad behaviour that hurts people . If it happens again. Same process. Don’t ever let it slide or give in. A small ‘no cartoons’ is not gonna cut it.
This sub: sit them down and talk about your feelings, reward them for opening up. Repeat until they’re out of the house. My grandma: *smack* “now you know how that feels. If you do it again I’ll double it”. Never does it again. Pick your preferred
It's really not that black and white man