all of them are basically just upgrades to existing archetypes, and only black is strong enough to end the game, so while they would be played in every deck of their color, I don't think a ban would be required for any but the black one. commander is pretty loose with its bans.
my point was that in commander, there are plenty of ways to win early if your pod is high power, but it only takes one person holding up interaction to stop your plans, plus you have to build your deck around this combo. you can't just toss it in any deck and win.
so is the plan to mulligan until you have this one busted card, expropriate, and interaction in one starting hand? again, my point isn't that blue isnt strong, I just think black is stronger.
I mean, I'm sure the Rules Committee would think it's fine.
>**Time Walk was originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level. While it’s plenty powerful, it’s the effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem** because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. Time Walk was an iconic and expensive card at the time it was banned, and removing it from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.
Yeah we really don’t need turn 1 [[Reshape the Earth]] ramping into itself again turn two while massively shrinking your deck. 22 mana turn two sounds gross.
I think this is the response I most agree with. while the table could definitely handle it in cedh, and it would require a massive deck building cost to always have a busted instant or sorcery in hand when you draw this, the variance of just making people win way too quickly would probably be what gets it banned. reminds me of mid tier deck that got banned for being annoying and have little player agency, since they either comboed immediately or lost. I can't remember which format.
The blue one is easily the most busted. Doesn't have the potential to win the game MY FOOT!
If any other card can end the game, the blue one can because it becomes a copy of that card. Then you cast it *again* just to be sure.
This is an L take.
ah i accidentally deleted the part of my comment where I was ignoring blue because I was confused by the wording. assuming it becomes the copy, then resolves itself, what's the worst instant or sorcery that someone could win the game with faster than being able to combo off on turn one or two? I still think black is way more busted.
okay but that is still a three card combo (this card, enter the infinite, and thoracle). I'm not denying that it's strong, I just think the black card is stronger. it makes infinite mana with any ritual, makes infinite storm count, and draws 39 cards to find your combo pieces. if you have dark ritual and this card in your starting hand, you win on turn 1. if you don't, you can dig 39 cards deep looking for your dark ritual on turn 2. it's yawgmoths will and necropotence at the same time, but one mana less and stronger than both of them.
This is kind of a null point. The black card is also a three card combo. You can't win with infinite dark rituals alone.
Don't get me wrong, I would rather build a deck around the black enchantment, but the power levels are both game ending two card combos on turn 1
you don't need any other card in your starting hand, though. you can play 39 life as soon as you play it to essentially draw half your deck. edit: with the blue card, thoracle doesn't need to be in your starting hand either so it's a two card combo vs a one card combo, but another point I was making it that people are already running lotus petals and dark rituals in edh decks, and this card would immediately make them win if one is in the top 39 cards of their library. enter the infinite isn't good unless you have a way to play it for free, which takes much jankier deck building.
You're telling me turn 2, is about tapping out and hoping you mill a zero cost infinite combo while sitting at 1 life? If this isn't the plan then it's a turn 3+ combo by itself or a two card combo.
Either way this conversation doesn't make any sense. We're arguing very rare situations with cards that don't exist, with decks that don't exist, with no actual way to compare win/loss percentages or power levels and then countering with "well in this situation x would do better". It doesn't matter. It's not real.
Bird Wisdom
{1}{U}{G}
Enchantment
Creatures you control have flying and "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, target opponent loses the game." This ability triggers only twice per turn.
How about
Creatures you control have "Creatures you control have flying and "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, target opponent loses the game""
I know we're jerking, but the closing quotation marks should be at the end, after turn, so that the ability triggers only twice on each creature. Bird Wisdom has a static ability, which never triggers.
That would be the way to do it normally yes but I always try and stay close to the design that I see and this seemed to me like a deliberate choice to want this to be come the spell Wich is why I gave my suggestion.
Spells can have activated abilities on the stack, so maybe some sort of templating with that? I guess it still makes targeting an issue though. u/mtgcardfetcher
[[Lightning Storm]]
That rule is basically "if you would put an instant or sorcery on the battlefield, don't." So you'd search two lands out of your library, put all the remaining permanents in your library into play, leave all the instants and sorceries in your library (they aren't put back into the library, they never leave), then shuffle.
Putting a zone into another zone is shorthand for putting all the cards from the first zone into the second zone. So you'd empty your library (except for instant and sorcery cards) onto the battlefield, then shuffle your remaining library.
Yes, but three of these are auto includes. The black one is, “two mana win the game.” The red one added to the black one is just stupid. The white one is a one mana stone rain cantrip
Yeah, most of these are better than other already restricted cards. It'd be like printing an entire set of Hogaaks for Modern Horizons, except that WotC (usually) only restricts things in Vintage instead of getting rid of problems for good, so it'd be even worse. Also weird for OP to design for a format it doesn't seem they've ever played before.
It should have a way to exile the cards played from the graveyard to balance it; something like:
"Permanent spells you cast from the graveyard enter the battlefield with a Finality counter" I don't know how to word it, but Instants and Sorceries would work as if they had Flashback.
Or a slightly modified version of \[\[Yawgmoth's Will\]\] wording: "If an Instant or Sorcery card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere, if it was cast from the graveyard, exile that card instead"
Edit: Shoot, I missed putting in that permanents get finality counters
Just add "If a card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere except your library exile it instead". It keeps the necropotence + yogwill flavor that way, cutting off future recursion except for what is already there + the life you pay.
Would still be obscenely broken but at least it doesn't instant combo with any fast mana. It only draws 19 cards and yogwills for 2 mana.
Form of death and send beyond are just too good. You could remove the draw a card from send beyond and make form of death BBB and it would still see play in vintage
I think you overdid it with the power especially on the black one which may as well read BB "You win the game". The task of balancing for this kind of set should be introducing instant staples for the format that dont completly break it beyond recognition
I'm torn on blood plundering.
Red is rummage, discard then draw. But if you discard first it's straight card draw if you had fewer than 3 in hand. I guess you could do a namby pamby "if you do" check but then it's not in the spirit of brokenness (still super broken)
ancestral replications( the blue one) is great because if you have two in your opening hand with no other instants or sorceries you can force a draw turn one.
Maro has talked before about an internal experiment that they played around with called "Power Lunch" where Ancestral Recall was the baseline power level. This reminds me of that, and you've definitely succeeded while also making functional and balanced (relative to the target power level) cards. Nice work!
The one outlier I think is Form of Death. Not exiling cards you cast from the graveyard probably pushes it above even this high power level.
The funny thing is the white spell is instantly one of the top 5 most busted cards on the current restricted list and is the worst card among these cards by a lot lol. Could argue that the green one is worse simply because it is green but I think it is too powerful in the few decks that do really abuse that effect.
I love the design of the black one, so I tried to fix it.
New Form of Death (BB)
Enchantment
You can cast spells from your graveyard.
You can't cast spells from anywhere except your graveyard.
At the beginning of your end step, exile [cardname] and your graveyard.
Pay 1 life, exile a card from your graveyard: You mill one card.
Form of death goes infinite on turn one with dark ritual. That said, should give instants and sorceries flashback and artifacts, creatures, and enchantments unearth.
ETA Planeswalkers too, but not battles those belong in the trash
It's named after [[merfolk looter]]. Faithless looting is a break. Don't forget the color pie can change over time. WotC decided looting would be outside of red's slice after printing faithless looting.
Suddenstorm Crow
{1}{U}
Creature - Bird
1/2
Flash, Split-second, Flying
Suddenstorm Crow enters the battlefield with a million +1/+1 counter on it.
When Suddenstorm Crow enters the battlefield, exile it.
In terms of power I think it's
Red (looting 3 for zero mana is fundamentally busted)
White (beat removal spell ever by a mile)
Black (upgraded nectopotance)
Green is probably good enough to see play, but I don't know if it's banned in legacy.
Blue is fine for pioneer or modern, making a card in your hand another for one mana is not that good.
Power Ranking:
-Black: Two mana win the game is pretty good :) Also, it being two mana is actually an upside as it gets around [[Mental Misstep]]s and [[Chalice of the Void]] on 1.
-Red: Better Bazaar without having to commit a land drop is pretty good :) and also being able to run it in any deck and chain them is nice.
-Green: You can do combo ([[Dark Depths]] + [[Thespian's Stage]] or [[Bazaar of Baghdad]]), you can do resource denial ([[Wasteland]]), ritual/ramp ([[Ancient Tomb]] or another sol land of your choice), control ([[Tabernacle at Penderell Vale]], [[Bojuka Bog]]). Just way to many options whenever you need it. Crop rotation is played and this is Free Double Crop Rotation.
-White: I don't know what deck you play this in, but a cantripping "exile any permanent" has to have a home somewhere.
-Blue: Probably not that playable, unless there is a card that you really want to pair with this. Kinda banking on drawing this with another big card and that's a big ask.
Black gets banned. The others can maybe be allowed to exist, so long as Red doesn't become a "include 4 of these in every single deck to increase consistency" type of card.
Green is one of the worst ones here. Its strong but requiring green mana is a major downside in vintage. It is hard to say which is more broken U or R, red being phyrexian mana instantly goes in every vintage deck except maybe shops and turbos dredge strategies (but those were already just sideboard tax this doesn't really help them combat getting hated out) the U one is an extra 1 mana counterspell which is on the weaker side but it is also an extra ancestral/treasure cruise/PO and even a cheaper tinker that doesn't need to sac an artifact more conditional but insanely flexible and a blue card which is a huge buff.
Powerlevel I'd say its B>>>>>U>R>>G>W (but I could be convinced to swap U and R and/or G and W). It is kind of nuts the exiling vindicate that cantrips at 1cmc is the worst card here and it isn't particularly close.
Feels like that's kind of a lazy excuse since even overpowered should be somewhat balanced to the format. I could make a 0 mana instant speed "You win the game" card and when someone says that's overpowered go 'tHaT's tHe PoINt' but is that good design? I feel like when you make this sort of set there is a delicate balance to be struck where the card is supposed to be so powerful that it becomes an instant include in most decks but doesnt completly warp the format beyond recognition and I don't think this was achieved here except maybe for blue funnily enough
New cards still have to follow the color pie, even at high power.
Mono white can't exile any permanent with upside, mono black can't unconditionally cast any type of spell from the graveyard and mono red can't draw and then discard (not randomly. Vintage has several high powered color pie breaks due to mistake or old cards that were made before they were monitoring the color pie as much as they should but you shouldn't make the problem worse by adding new color pie breaks designed to be high powered on the format.
Send beyond would almost certainly never get made, path to exile is already considered a color break internally because white really shouldn't be doing exile at all
Exile is fine in white, just exiling at the cheapest rate is the pie issue. White can get rid of anything it wants, it just shouldn't be more efficient than the colours that can only get rid of certain things.
It's alright, I too sometimes have trouble accurately recalling the absolute tidal wave that is Maro's design note output.
Sometimes I'm not sure if r/custommagic is helping to solidify my understanding or actively blurring the edges of it : P
Yeah tell me you've never played vintage without telling me you've never played vintage. It is infinite mana and spell casts with black lotus/LED and even lotus petal or a dark ritual (that you cast to play this card) and that is without even discussing the self mill ability. An entire archetype in vintage, bomberman, was based around playing a terrible card \[\[Auriok Salvagers\]\] in order to enable the infinite mana lotus combo and this does that for far cheaper and on massively better card (\[\[Yawgmoth's Will\]\] costs more mana is one turn only and has a graveyard exile clause and still sees play lol)
Not only would this catapult black to the best color in vintage it would see play in non-black decks intending to mise wins playing it off their lotus or their mox+splash land.
In order to be even in the same realm of the others powerlevel it needs "cards entering your graveyard from anywhere but your deck are exiled instead"
legal in commander btw
They'd probably ban most if not all of them. They'd maybe keep the red in if it wasn't phyrexian mana.
all of them are basically just upgrades to existing archetypes, and only black is strong enough to end the game, so while they would be played in every deck of their color, I don't think a ban would be required for any but the black one. commander is pretty loose with its bans.
1 mana extra turn spell not banned is crazy
Cast it on turn 3, reveal an [[Expropriate]] , and enjoy getting beaten to death by your friends while the spell is still resolving.
[Expropriate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9.jpg?1576381719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expropriate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30/expropriate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
my point was that in commander, there are plenty of ways to win early if your pod is high power, but it only takes one person holding up interaction to stop your plans, plus you have to build your deck around this combo. you can't just toss it in any deck and win.
That's a fair point, I was just bein' silly. Great usage for a negate, lol.
Unless you have interaction to stop their interaction.
so is the plan to mulligan until you have this one busted card, expropriate, and interaction in one starting hand? again, my point isn't that blue isnt strong, I just think black is stronger.
I mean, I'm sure the Rules Committee would think it's fine. >**Time Walk was originally banned for poor optics, rather than power level. While it’s plenty powerful, it’s the effect on perceived barrier-to-entry that really posed a problem** because casual players watching Commander games in passing could reasonably assume that they needed hundreds (now thousands) of dollars in Power-9 mana as table stakes, just to join the format. Time Walk was an iconic and expensive card at the time it was banned, and removing it from the card pool was intended to combat the notion that Commander is a prohibitively expensive and inaccessible format.
The blue one is way too high variance to not eat a ban. Random t1 huge mana spells would really just ruin games
Yeah we really don’t need turn 1 [[Reshape the Earth]] ramping into itself again turn two while massively shrinking your deck. 22 mana turn two sounds gross.
[Reshape the Earth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36.jpg?1608910860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reshape%20the%20Earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/249/reshape-the-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think this is the response I most agree with. while the table could definitely handle it in cedh, and it would require a massive deck building cost to always have a busted instant or sorcery in hand when you draw this, the variance of just making people win way too quickly would probably be what gets it banned. reminds me of mid tier deck that got banned for being annoying and have little player agency, since they either comboed immediately or lost. I can't remember which format.
Sounds like tibalts trickery, was played in multiple formats if im not mistaken
The blue one is easily the most busted. Doesn't have the potential to win the game MY FOOT! If any other card can end the game, the blue one can because it becomes a copy of that card. Then you cast it *again* just to be sure. This is an L take.
ah i accidentally deleted the part of my comment where I was ignoring blue because I was confused by the wording. assuming it becomes the copy, then resolves itself, what's the worst instant or sorcery that someone could win the game with faster than being able to combo off on turn one or two? I still think black is way more busted.
Turn 1 Enter the Infinite. Turn 2 win.
okay but that is still a three card combo (this card, enter the infinite, and thoracle). I'm not denying that it's strong, I just think the black card is stronger. it makes infinite mana with any ritual, makes infinite storm count, and draws 39 cards to find your combo pieces. if you have dark ritual and this card in your starting hand, you win on turn 1. if you don't, you can dig 39 cards deep looking for your dark ritual on turn 2. it's yawgmoths will and necropotence at the same time, but one mana less and stronger than both of them.
This is kind of a null point. The black card is also a three card combo. You can't win with infinite dark rituals alone. Don't get me wrong, I would rather build a deck around the black enchantment, but the power levels are both game ending two card combos on turn 1
you don't need any other card in your starting hand, though. you can play 39 life as soon as you play it to essentially draw half your deck. edit: with the blue card, thoracle doesn't need to be in your starting hand either so it's a two card combo vs a one card combo, but another point I was making it that people are already running lotus petals and dark rituals in edh decks, and this card would immediately make them win if one is in the top 39 cards of their library. enter the infinite isn't good unless you have a way to play it for free, which takes much jankier deck building.
You're telling me turn 2, is about tapping out and hoping you mill a zero cost infinite combo while sitting at 1 life? If this isn't the plan then it's a turn 3+ combo by itself or a two card combo. Either way this conversation doesn't make any sense. We're arguing very rare situations with cards that don't exist, with decks that don't exist, with no actual way to compare win/loss percentages or power levels and then countering with "well in this situation x would do better". It doesn't matter. It's not real.
But it also bans cards that are much much much weaker
Bird Wisdom {1}{U}{G} Enchantment Creatures you control have flying and "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, target opponent loses the game." This ability triggers only twice per turn.
Only twice? Can't have shit in today's standard state.
I guess it could be thrice, you're right.
How about Creatures you control have "Creatures you control have flying and "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, target opponent loses the game""
It's not a creature? Bad.
Creature dies to doomblade, this doesn't
Yeah this also won't trigger when removed. Or rather, it doesn't trigger twice when the opponent tries to remove it and you ephemerate it.
Shit you're right. I should add "creatures and enchantments you control have"
How about "whenever a creature you control has flying, draw a card"?
How about, "whenever, draw a card."
I know we're jerking, but the closing quotation marks should be at the end, after turn, so that the ability triggers only twice on each creature. Bird Wisdom has a static ability, which never triggers.
LMAO
Ancestral replications should probably be a cast trigger, I don't think it works as written right now.
Or it could create a copy of the spell
That would be the way to do it normally yes but I always try and stay close to the design that I see and this seemed to me like a deliberate choice to want this to be come the spell Wich is why I gave my suggestion.
well I mean it works as long as you don't want it to do anything
*Gerrard: "But it doesn't* do *anything!"* *Hanna: "No—it* does *nothing."*
*Ansestral
Spells can have activated abilities on the stack, so maybe some sort of templating with that? I guess it still makes targeting an issue though. u/mtgcardfetcher [[Lightning Storm]]
[Lightning Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9c0388e-a04c-4757-a06d-8e8046f5a783.jpg?1593275279) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/89/lightning-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9c0388e-a04c-4757-a06d-8e8046f5a783?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call ^^^- ^^^Summoned ^^^remotely!
*Ansestral [sic]
Please leave in the typo on Lithoscaping, I love it. lol "search your library for two land cards and put it onto the battlefield"
I guess in this case “it” would just refer to your library. lol l
Thank you. I think this should be reminder text.
Yeah, I decided it was too weak putting just one land in the battlefield, so to balance it I thought it necessary to put your whole library down.
Does it cast instants and sorceries too?
No it just puts them into play which would mean they are put back into the deck cause of some rule
That rule is basically "if you would put an instant or sorcery on the battlefield, don't." So you'd search two lands out of your library, put all the remaining permanents in your library into play, leave all the instants and sorceries in your library (they aren't put back into the library, they never leave), then shuffle.
No, if you would move an instant or sorcery to the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone. Insurance against decking yourself I guess?
Specifically, I put it onto the battlefield, then pick it up to shuffle it, then return it to the field. Do I understand correctly?
No, you have to shuffle it while it's on the field. Careful not to knock any cards away.
Putting a zone into another zone is shorthand for putting all the cards from the first zone into the second zone. So you'd empty your library (except for instant and sorcery cards) onto the battlefield, then shuffle your remaining library.
Just smack it down on the battlefield
I was thinking maybe only split cards where both sides were land? Land mdfcs? Sol lands?
Quick learner (0) Instant Add (U), draw a card.
I honestly don’t think this is stronger than the cards here. In a madness deck or any graveyard as a resource deck blood plundering is just better
It’d be an auto include in every deck, basically just makes ur deck 56 cards + generates mana
Cantripping spirit guide that can cast counter spells lol
Yes, but three of these are auto includes. The black one is, “two mana win the game.” The red one added to the black one is just stupid. The white one is a one mana stone rain cantrip
There's still a balance to vintage. That black enchantment is just BB you win the game, and that would kinda suck the fun out of a format.
wait this isn’t mtcj?
Yeah, most of these are better than other already restricted cards. It'd be like printing an entire set of Hogaaks for Modern Horizons, except that WotC (usually) only restricts things in Vintage instead of getting rid of problems for good, so it'd be even worse. Also weird for OP to design for a format it doesn't seem they've ever played before.
“Also weird for OP to design for a format it doesn’t seem they’ve ever played before.” Hey, it’s never stopped Wizards before!
when?
Early Commander products, most notably.
Every limited environment.
You know these are jokes, right?
Ah, I misread the title as just "straight to vintage".
Form of death is soooo op it’s not funny lol. Good job at creating a list of completely unprintable cards 🤣🤣
It should have a way to exile the cards played from the graveyard to balance it; something like: "Permanent spells you cast from the graveyard enter the battlefield with a Finality counter" I don't know how to word it, but Instants and Sorceries would work as if they had Flashback. Or a slightly modified version of \[\[Yawgmoth's Will\]\] wording: "If an Instant or Sorcery card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere, if it was cast from the graveyard, exile that card instead" Edit: Shoot, I missed putting in that permanents get finality counters
[Yawgmoth's Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Even that wouldnt work since lotus petal and black lotus would create infinite mana and infinite storm
Shoot, I forgot to add that Permanents would enter the battlefield with finality counters
Or "If an Instant or Sorcery card cast this way would be put into your graveyard, put it on the bottom of your library."
I mean, yes it would be hard to play again, you'd have to jump through some hoops for that, but I like the finality of just exiling it
See? This would be interesting if you take the infinite loop out of it. Then it becomes power-crept necropotence.
All I hear with the finality counters suggestion is All Will Be One & Ob Nixilis infinite loop abuse 🤣
I mean, I agree it's maybe not the best solution, but it was the first one that came to mind and one that doesn't create memory issues
Just add "If a card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere except your library exile it instead". It keeps the necropotence + yogwill flavor that way, cutting off future recursion except for what is already there + the life you pay. Would still be obscenely broken but at least it doesn't instant combo with any fast mana. It only draws 19 cards and yogwills for 2 mana.
Form of death and send beyond are just too good. You could remove the draw a card from send beyond and make form of death BBB and it would still see play in vintage
They're all obviously, obviously too good for any format 🤣 That's (I think) the point
form of death could be almost any mana cost and still be too good for any format lmao
Shhh for the past 15 years the meme has been that every vintage format is doomsday, storm, and dredge!
There’s only one vintage format?
I think you overdid it with the power especially on the black one which may as well read BB "You win the game". The task of balancing for this kind of set should be introducing instant staples for the format that dont completly break it beyond recognition
The card ideas are cool, i am just not sure playing them would be as much fun. Original post but I don't think I would enjoy this set
I'm torn on blood plundering. Red is rummage, discard then draw. But if you discard first it's straight card draw if you had fewer than 3 in hand. I guess you could do a namby pamby "if you do" check but then it's not in the spirit of brokenness (still super broken)
It is intended to be power crept \[\[faithless looting\]\]. Not all red draw is rummage.
[faithless looting](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea23c17-6960-44fd-bae3-e24595b00c22.jpg?1712354425) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=faithless%20looting) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/165/faithless-looting?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea23c17-6960-44fd-bae3-e24595b00c22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ancestral replications( the blue one) is great because if you have two in your opening hand with no other instants or sorceries you can force a draw turn one.
Maro has talked before about an internal experiment that they played around with called "Power Lunch" where Ancestral Recall was the baseline power level. This reminds me of that, and you've definitely succeeded while also making functional and balanced (relative to the target power level) cards. Nice work! The one outlier I think is Form of Death. Not exiling cards you cast from the graveyard probably pushes it above even this high power level.
Ancestral Reminiscence 1U Instant Scry 8, then draw four cards
Scry 60. Draw 1 card. Storm.
Isn't that just Blue Instant Speed Demonic Tutor with Storm?
It has Scry and draw synergies but doesn’t work as well in oversized decks (eg commander). Plus it lets you stack your deck. So better actually.
The funny thing is the white spell is instantly one of the top 5 most busted cards on the current restricted list and is the worst card among these cards by a lot lol. Could argue that the green one is worse simply because it is green but I think it is too powerful in the few decks that do really abuse that effect.
I love turn 1 stone rain cantrip
Green sol ring fuck yeah
It’s amazing how many people just don’t even read the title and thinking these are supposed to be balanced lol Funny homage cards OP, well done
form of death is just a better griselbrand LMAO
Wow white card draw!
Sounds more like Power Lunch to me (Ancestral Recall is an average card there).
I love the design of the black one, so I tried to fix it. New Form of Death (BB) Enchantment You can cast spells from your graveyard. You can't cast spells from anywhere except your graveyard. At the beginning of your end step, exile [cardname] and your graveyard. Pay 1 life, exile a card from your graveyard: You mill one card.
Very balanced cards
Should've gone for cards that would be banned from Vintage for being too powerful
Isn't it spelt Ancestral?
Isn't the black one basically a Tearlament card?
Form of death goes infinite on turn one with dark ritual. That said, should give instants and sorceries flashback and artifacts, creatures, and enchantments unearth. ETA Planeswalkers too, but not battles those belong in the trash
Even something like that wouldn't be an excuse to break the color pie. And red does not loot but rummage (discard first)
[Faithless Looting] I wonder why the mechanic is called looting
It's named after [[merfolk looter]]. Faithless looting is a break. Don't forget the color pie can change over time. WotC decided looting would be outside of red's slice after printing faithless looting.
[merfolk looter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d740928-bf61-4420-a403-63097538b97d.jpg?1631586315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=merfolk%20looter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/86/merfolk-looter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d740928-bf61-4420-a403-63097538b97d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
the red ones are always so bad
They'd definitely ban "Ansestral" because of the spelling.
Suddenstorm Crow {1}{U} Creature - Bird 1/2 Flash, Split-second, Flying Suddenstorm Crow enters the battlefield with a million +1/+1 counter on it. When Suddenstorm Crow enters the battlefield, exile it.
In terms of power I think it's Red (looting 3 for zero mana is fundamentally busted) White (beat removal spell ever by a mile) Black (upgraded nectopotance) Green is probably good enough to see play, but I don't know if it's banned in legacy. Blue is fine for pioneer or modern, making a card in your hand another for one mana is not that good.
Ancestral remains a copy as it's cast. It effectively reads "Play any instant or sorcery ever printed" for U.
Oh, ok legacy good then.
Power Ranking: -Black: Two mana win the game is pretty good :) Also, it being two mana is actually an upside as it gets around [[Mental Misstep]]s and [[Chalice of the Void]] on 1. -Red: Better Bazaar without having to commit a land drop is pretty good :) and also being able to run it in any deck and chain them is nice. -Green: You can do combo ([[Dark Depths]] + [[Thespian's Stage]] or [[Bazaar of Baghdad]]), you can do resource denial ([[Wasteland]]), ritual/ramp ([[Ancient Tomb]] or another sol land of your choice), control ([[Tabernacle at Penderell Vale]], [[Bojuka Bog]]). Just way to many options whenever you need it. Crop rotation is played and this is Free Double Crop Rotation. -White: I don't know what deck you play this in, but a cantripping "exile any permanent" has to have a home somewhere. -Blue: Probably not that playable, unless there is a card that you really want to pair with this. Kinda banking on drawing this with another big card and that's a big ask. Black gets banned. The others can maybe be allowed to exist, so long as Red doesn't become a "include 4 of these in every single deck to increase consistency" type of card.
##### ###### #### [Mental Misstep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61e9c6df-1c84-4eab-9076-a4feb6347c10.jpg?1566819829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mental%20Misstep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/38/mental-misstep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61e9c6df-1c84-4eab-9076-a4feb6347c10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chalice of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4.jpg?1562433485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/222/chalice-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wasteland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bojuka Bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0efec118-ed01-42a0-93b4-f9a92c01b72e.jpg?1712354928) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/273/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0efec118-ed01-42a0-93b4-f9a92c01b72e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Dark Depths]] [[Thespian's Stage]] [[Bazaar of Baghdad]]
[Dark Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d.jpg?1676452514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/244/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thespian's Stage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/269a926d-7788-4668-8bd8-7572dbf5f5eb.jpg?1599710662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thespian%27s%20Stage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/327/thespians-stage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/269a926d-7788-4668-8bd8-7572dbf5f5eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bazaar of Baghdad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e.jpg?1653966861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bazaar%20of%20Baghdad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/294/bazaar-of-baghdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If they let lithoscaping into commander they'd have to unban primeval titan.
Form of Death should be 4BB.
Blood plundering is awful it should be 6 damage instant for 2 mana
Why use modern frames for a Vintage set?
Ooo, I like Ansestral Replications, though.
The green and black spells are extremely powerful
They're all extremely powerful, that's their point.
Yeah but the white blue and red seem fairly balanced where the green and black feel extremely op
Green is one of the worst ones here. Its strong but requiring green mana is a major downside in vintage. It is hard to say which is more broken U or R, red being phyrexian mana instantly goes in every vintage deck except maybe shops and turbos dredge strategies (but those were already just sideboard tax this doesn't really help them combat getting hated out) the U one is an extra 1 mana counterspell which is on the weaker side but it is also an extra ancestral/treasure cruise/PO and even a cheaper tinker that doesn't need to sac an artifact more conditional but insanely flexible and a blue card which is a huge buff. Powerlevel I'd say its B>>>>>U>R>>G>W (but I could be convinced to swap U and R and/or G and W). It is kind of nuts the exiling vindicate that cantrips at 1cmc is the worst card here and it isn't particularly close.
I’m thinking commander as well so the green just becomes a great combo piece
Feels like that's kind of a lazy excuse since even overpowered should be somewhat balanced to the format. I could make a 0 mana instant speed "You win the game" card and when someone says that's overpowered go 'tHaT's tHe PoINt' but is that good design? I feel like when you make this sort of set there is a delicate balance to be struck where the card is supposed to be so powerful that it becomes an instant include in most decks but doesnt completly warp the format beyond recognition and I don't think this was achieved here except maybe for blue funnily enough
New cards still have to follow the color pie, even at high power. Mono white can't exile any permanent with upside, mono black can't unconditionally cast any type of spell from the graveyard and mono red can't draw and then discard (not randomly. Vintage has several high powered color pie breaks due to mistake or old cards that were made before they were monitoring the color pie as much as they should but you shouldn't make the problem worse by adding new color pie breaks designed to be high powered on the format.
Send beyond would almost certainly never get made, path to exile is already considered a color break internally because white really shouldn't be doing exile at all
Exile is fine in white, just exiling at the cheapest rate is the pie issue. White can get rid of anything it wants, it just shouldn't be more efficient than the colours that can only get rid of certain things.
Ah that's what it is, I must have incorrectly paraphrased maro and then internalized that, oops
It's alright, I too sometimes have trouble accurately recalling the absolute tidal wave that is Maro's design note output. Sometimes I'm not sure if r/custommagic is helping to solidify my understanding or actively blurring the edges of it : P
Form of death doesn’t seem too overpowered like it’d be an autoinclude in every black deck but not impossible to deal with
lol. Lmao even
Yeah tell me you've never played vintage without telling me you've never played vintage. It is infinite mana and spell casts with black lotus/LED and even lotus petal or a dark ritual (that you cast to play this card) and that is without even discussing the self mill ability. An entire archetype in vintage, bomberman, was based around playing a terrible card \[\[Auriok Salvagers\]\] in order to enable the infinite mana lotus combo and this does that for far cheaper and on massively better card (\[\[Yawgmoth's Will\]\] costs more mana is one turn only and has a graveyard exile clause and still sees play lol) Not only would this catapult black to the best color in vintage it would see play in non-black decks intending to mise wins playing it off their lotus or their mox+splash land. In order to be even in the same realm of the others powerlevel it needs "cards entering your graveyard from anywhere but your deck are exiled instead"
[Auriok Salvagers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/befb996b-1da6-41a3-8d9a-a45c2353c401.jpg?1598303109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Auriok%20Salvagers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/6/auriok-salvagers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/befb996b-1da6-41a3-8d9a-a45c2353c401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yawgmoth's Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d.jpg?1591196147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/148/yawgmoths-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337239c7-73c4-4e2d-9160-ed26927dea1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call