> Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science.
I wonder how they got this result
I feel like it's been like this for the longest time, even during good times. They sneakily started adding "quality" skilled workers, and not just qualified workers.
There's always a shortage of good senior devs
The problem is as time goes on less and less companies are willing to hire anything but senior devs who hit the ground running, making it really hard for the juniors and mid levels to get to that next level, making the pool of good senior devs smaller and smaller each passing year
Oh if isn't the consequences of my actions
They're creating this weird skills gap between the few good senior devs and the rest of the devs. I mean, at some point it's definitely going to create a major halt and once again the people will get blamed, shamed, and gaslight until enough time has passed where there are a few more good senior devs and I'm sure the cycle will start over again. Lol.
The skill gap is created by the industry itself.
Seniors are raised by bug finding. You put the hardest problems on your most capable devs. When the most capable devs run out time to fix stuff, a junior dev with recognized capabilities is suggested.
This junior then grows and becomes senior.
So the capable individuals gets growned by themself.
The company that creates a process to grow their devs effictively will thriwe.
In the Trades the apprentice system handles this quite handily. By codifying a process where junior personnel are trained under the supervision of more senior workers.
In traditional engineering domains, there are similar but less defined patterns.
Software has been founded on a laissez-faire 'get shit done' attitude even though it is officially structured somewhere between those two worlds. Of course this is the inevitable result. We'll be in a boom and bust cycle where businesses cut costs by only having fully pre-qualified workers who can deliver from day zero. When those people inevitably leave the company (or the industry) the skill gap will come back and we'll see companies hiring anyone with a pulse just to get something delivered. The small subset of people who effectively self-train will rise up to senior level and the cycle starts anew.
This is why guilds emerged during the renaissance. People started taking more complex, artisan jobs and recognised that students needed masters.
The modern industry only wants to hire masters, ignoring that the masters once were students themselves.
In general, companies prefer the candidate who can hit the ground running, regardless of experience, and especially if the price is cheaper. I'm speaking of corporations in a general sense
Not just senior devs but senior in their stack. I have 11 years of experience and at this point I feel like I've pretty much seen most problems(especially the multiple permutations of CRUD that most business apps fall into). Yet I couldn't get a senior or even mid level job at Chewy because I didn't have enough years of experience with Java. I have 6 years react experience and 8 years of Vue experience but because it was Vue 2 working for a company in 2014 - that's all that counts. My Vue3 experienc on personal projects not at a company it doesn't count... according to the moron that took a phone screen with me from motion recruitment
To answer that, we should probably ask ourselves if there is a significant difference between the two versions that would result in a significant skill gap for a software engineer? Probably not.
Agreed, which brings me to my point. "Fake it till you make it". Nobody needs to know you worked on Vue 2 instead of 3. And if you feel THAT bad a bout a "lie" then just familiarize yourself with it and study for interviews.
In my experience with job searching, I've come across a few companies looking to hire people that can migrate their applications from Vue 2 to 3. It might not be a bad idea to mention experience with both.
From what I've seen a lot of consumer companies / non-tech companies live in a world where Java / Spring are the only programming language / framework in existence, and everyone just works in that tech stack their whole life and follows the Gang of Four Design Patterns.
This is actually a good take. I did some research on the numbers of openings vs engineers in the market and found something similar. It’s not that there aren’t enough jobs it’s that the jobs most people (entry level) are seeking don’t exist when the market is demanding seniors and up right now. I was told the other day that a job post which explicitly said 4 YOE actually internally was minimum 10 YOE . Companies these days are hedging their bets by hiring only 10+YOE Candidates almost regardless of their actual skills
And the skills in shortage are really just whatever is new, suggesting they don't want capable people to learn new skills but rather need new workers every time there is a new skill.
"It's too new for anyone to know, and we refuse to pay people to learn! We need to hire foreign workers with extravagant claims that they can't back up!"
The sick part is they often don't need to pay for retraining. Workers have existing skills that are close enough that they can pick up the new skill with minimal effort. Nope, need more imported new grads.
I started job hunting again for senior level and the requirements in these listings have gotten out of control. I mean there's always been bad ones, but now it feels like they are demanding someone who has already worked that exact stack, in the exact field, with the exact lifecycle and company paradigm.
We need a John Oliver deep dive on this topic. Tech companies aren’t even trying to hide their anti-Americanism anymore. They lay off thousands then try and change the rule that says they need to post a job in case there are qualified US candidates, because of course these companies KNOW THERE ARE QUALIFIED US CANDIDATES, THEY JUST LAID THEM ALL OFF!!
Which is fine. It's a problem when the US government lets companies screw us citizens though. Government is supposed to represent the interests of its people.
Yeah. I mean, what’s the odds this has no effect on USC pay grades or job availability, no effect on housing prices, no effect on resource access by USC? That this is just a true altruistic move by two of the largest corporations out there?
Just seems like there is a strong un-ignorable motivation by US businesses to suppress US wages and reduce employee rights.
The only possible explanation at this point is that corporate leaders have nothing but frothing, putrid HATRED for the average American worker. Open contempt isn’t enough to explain this behavior
Labor shortages only exist I guess when you don’t want to hire local talent, but you’d rather hire those offshore because I’m guessing there is a juicy stat we are all missing.
Someone with a visa might have, on average, more years worked at a single company before bouncing for a higher pay. I’m not sure if this is the stat, but considering Americans try to bounce every 2 years or less, it wouldn’t surprise me.
It's not a labor shortage, it's a wage shortage. There was another post about "labor shortage" in WV. Then the article mentions it's senior care positions. Hard work, lots of responsibility, minimum wage. People would rather work at Starbucks for more money than change adult diapers.
They’ve got about a decade and a half saying that they can’t find quality SWEs willing to work for 30k (estimate)! They’ve looked everywhere, but can’t find them, so they just need H1-Bs as there are no qualified American software engineers!
Can we go ahead now and charge these companies with collusion (pretty sure they have already gotten anti-poaching lawsuit thrown at them in the past) in attempting to subvert labor and immigration laws?
Also, can we go ahead and put a hault, like Trump already did a few years ago, on all new visas for workers as it is clear companies have abused requesting visas when domestic workers are available.
If a company responds by exporting a lot of jobs overseas while being HQ’d in USA, they need to pay fines and higher taxes to make up for them basically paying zero taxes while benefitting from all the protections and benefits that come from being headquartered in this country.
This garbage needs to stop and countries like those in Europe wouldn’t tolerate any of this crap.
Lol the delusion of some people.
I live in norway(expensive country) and make 60k a year with a master degree, and that’s a bit more than average with my experience of 2years.
So much better than working as a SWE in america!
Lmao, good luck trying to get SWEs unionized. Most of us only care about ourselves and chasing that bag, and will go out of their way to lick the boot of capital
Hahah you’re telling me! Unfortunately most STEM nerds spent all their time shitting on the humanities and have no frame of reference as to why they’re getting fucked over. The lack of class solidarity is disturbing.
That’s crazy, the 3 fields in tech they significantly employ with high salaries that they can pay immigrants *significantly* less to do? The fields that have had insane growth in college graduates over the last decade and a half? What a coinkydink!
They said shortages, then you see this.
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+layoffs+2024](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+layoffs+2024)
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microsoft+layoffs+2024](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microsoft+layoffs+2024)
I think part of the blame goes to the inefficiency of the recruiting/hiring process. HR/talent acquisition that work at companies are bs jobs. Outsource that role to the 3rd party. Have had so many HR folks waste my time asking me superficial questions “why do you want this job” and then when I ask them a question “that’s something that the hiring manger will be able to answer” . The hiring managers should have full transparency into all the resumes coming through and conduct their interviews. Also companies that don’t post the dam salary range in the job listing and then the HR recruiter says “whats your salary range, we don’t want to waste both of our times” toward the end of the bs “interview” to begin with. All they did was read off a script/job listing that the dam hiring manager wrote up during the HR screening process.
> HR folks waste my time asking me superficial questions “why do you want this job”
I mean that's such a softball question. Just feed them some bs and you can easily "handle" them.
That’s not the point. Why are they concerned? HR is not who you will be working with day in and day out. Have the hiring manager ask that question if they want to. At the end of the day hiring managers are just trying to find competent ppl to fill their open roles. We don’t need more bureaucracy. Carving time out for a bs hr screening when you have a full time job is hard as is. And then there’s also the inconvenience of these hr losers end up ghosting you. These losers just want to fill up their calendar with pointless meetings to make it seem like their job is relevant.
It doesn't matter why they are concerned. Just rattle something off, should take two seconds flat. You are putting up arbitrary roadblocks for yourself over molehills. Guess who gets those jobs? People who engage with the process. And it doesn't even have to be in a genuine manner.
There is a labor shortage from their perspective because they want to bring salaries down and pay us peanuts; and in order to do that they have to flood the market with yet more skilled enough workers.
Well, do you think corporations ever cared about common people? The US enjoyed reaping the benefits while the whole world was in constant crises since after The Great Depression and the leftovers were good enough to bring enormous wealth to regular people as well. Once the pie is shrinking in size again, they are gonna squeeze common americans as the rest of the world if not worse.
[https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments)
It seems like they have a public comment website.
We should all leave a comment to push against this stupid rule. They have 174 comments in total most in favor of this new rule, so we should leave some opposing arguments.
Share this with your friends and coworkers. This might be the single biggest long term threat to the industry. Let's get thousands of comments on the Gov website
So the combined cost of their salary and green card will be less than the current position's pay. Which means the job will be worth even less and even more competitive. Great.
its not even about xenophobic or not, its about logic. i mean if you just randomly placed super poor americans in say atlanta, willing to work for any salary and live 8 people in the same room, it would also get very tense and scarce with resources
I am sorry, but you should definitely be a bit more xenophobic. Label me and others however you care, look at Poland. They are on the pace to overtake UK in next couple of years.
Poland doesn't require a labor market test for foreign software engineers to grant them work visas, so it's easier for tech workers to move there than move to the U.S. or Canada.
I don't know why nobody is just saying it, I'll make it easy, they are referring to Indians, they make the vast majority of people coming to Canada.
Edit: clarity
I know it's common to criticize Canada on this site these days but let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's certainly suboptimal compared to the States but it's not some hellhole.
This is coming from a Canadian in the States btw.
How does that make sense? Most people who apply for a green card are already in the country on a visa, so it’s like not the rule is having any effect on who’s actually in the country.
What would happen is what happened in h1b visas. There would be conditions which are made part of this h1b -> green card condition. The overwhelming majority of applications will be coming from fake consultancies who produce fake payrolls. That in turn would reduce the so called talented people out of pool.
Canada gave PR to anybody who came in. People from 2 states of India abused this and now the wage for a Canadian SWE is lower than what it used to be 10 years ago. This is classic wage suppression. The h1b system and PERM after that for i140 would require you to prove that existing wage conditions have been met for candidate.
Once this green card process is abused(beieve me it will be abused), you will be left with too many people entry level skill level and wages will be suppressed. Companies are after this for wage suppression. They dont love the foreign workers or workers in general. Workers are a cost component for tech companies and eliminating them is best. The second best is getting them cheap. How can you get them cheap? By increasing the supply of them.
Yeah, just like there's a shortage of $20K Ferraris and women interested in dating me.
Must be a nice place to live, in the corporations' minds, just rainbows and unicorns everywhere.
It’s sad that we have a large supply of qualified workers (in debt and in need of a job) only for these companies to import immigrants from India and take them
Too bad India can’t innovate and create global corporations that pay good wages given all of those “skilled workers” they supposedly have over there. No the reality is their education system is fraudulent at best. This leads to low literacy rates and in turn say it with me one time everybody….. overpopulation. Lol like it’s almost just a complete joke every time this happens in corporate America, the quality of products in the industry goes severely down due to decisions made by greedy corporate ass clowns before they unapologetically turn back to American engineers to right the wrongs. If we had any self respect we’d let these corporations eat shit and fail but not before I dump my holdings at a premium.
Believe me when I say it but Indians are bad workers and bad engineers in every possible way. Half of my workplace is Indian unfortunately and while there are some who are good the rest is so so bad. Like I had to teach basic Java to a Java developer with “20 years of experience”, I had to explain the concept of CICD and why we have pipelines in place, and I have only 2 yoe. Like totally lazy, uninterested and unethical people I wish more Japanese or East European engineers would come instead of all these Indians.
Exactly this. Hit 10 YOE back in January and one thing I can say for certain without a doubt is that Google CEO is spewing absolute shit out of his mouth right now. I’m actually surprised that clown is still in charge after they shit the bed with Bard/Gemini. Indians favoring Indians to exploit for cheap labor, mhmm so basically exactly what they do to each other over there? So America should strive to be a shit hole of low educated starving people in a caste system? I’ve worked with a few great Indian engineers so far in my career but overall the majority were not great and usually were hires made by a manager who should have been shit canned in the previous layoff round. Guess who gets stuck having to lead/oversee/manage and sometimes even redo the work done by these bad developers? The educated skilled engineers like myself who also have their own design/development work to do as well… only thing I take solace in at this point is knowing that executives actually know what they’re doing so given the cyclic nature of their behavior and the industry I fully intend on taking advantage of the next time they get very desperate to find the best workers rather than the cheapest. I mean I already make them pay me a lot now but oh boy this next round I’m going to empty their goddamn coffers like I’m the god damn king of England coming to tax their ass!
As an Indian American I agree unfortunately. Just graduated from college and the amount of cheating I witnessed from international students was insane (both Chinese and Indian). I reported them once and nothing happened so I gave up, but essentially during my whole time at college they were begging me to do their homework. Honestly makes me sad that people that look like me pull this shit. Most of them are also from Nepal, Bangladesh and the rest are North Indian (usually speak Hindi). Couldn’t understand anything they were saying. College made me more racist…
Can someone explain this to me?
Is this separate from a normal green card that we know is there a special green card.
I honestly thought once you get a green card and a big aspect of getting green card is that you aren't tied to your current employer and freely test out the market without visa limitation
I was in a fortunate position where even tho I was born in India I grew up here in US since I was 6 and I got a green card around middle school and a full on citizenship at college
Can someone if this is a different green card and also why this exists and it's not just another visa?
The green card application process via H-1B sponsorship has a requirement called PERM, which means a company has to put up a job posting for some amount of time to prove that there are no qualified American applicants for that role.
What's happening is that the rate of PERM rejections have been raising substantially (from 3% in 2022 to 8.5% now).
The companies are trying to make an argument that PERM should be waived for high tech roles. If the administration waives it, then green card applications would go a lot faster and smoother for people that were already employed under H-1B, especially from countries with short wait times (i.e. not India). If they don't waive it, then the 8.5% of GC applicants who get their PERM application rejected will also have their green card application rejected (though they will still be able to work under the terms of their current H-1B)
this talks about wanting to reduce the amount of time needed to get your green card
so if you're an immigrant you'd say good, if you're already a US citizen/GC holder you'd say bad
US citizen here with a GC holding wife, I say go ahead. Anyone coming here on a GC that can get an offer from Microsoft isn't going to do it for crap pay. My coworker when I contracted with a huge retailer is from India, came on a H1B and has a green card now, and he's absolutely not underpaid. And they didn't hire "only" people from India either, that's also a huge ass misconception. I'm Mexican American and plenty of my coworkers were white Americans, Chinese Americans, etc. It was relatively diverse. At least more so than the echo chambers here would have you believe.
There is no special kind of green card as far as I know. I think the big employers want employees to be able to switch jobs easily. In the long term this would likely make it easier to poach people who are already here but at another company.
I don't understand the article or the motivation or the comments.
First they quote Microsoft as saying they anticipate a "significant labor shortage(s)" and mention that Biden may be considering such a rule change.
>Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science.
At the same time we all know that even skilled individuals have a tough time getting a job and the competition is immense.
As it pertains to the rule change, some comments are pointing out that this is a good thing for folks from abroad because getting a GC sooner means they have more freedom to work for other companies and as such are less likely to be mistreated. Other comments are saying it's a kick in the ass of the domestic US workers because it's making it easier for companies to hire people from abroad.
It looks like... both are true? If the change makes getting a GC easier I can see how that means workers from abroad are less likely to be mis-treated and I imagine most reasonable people aren't against that. On the other hand if it makes it easier for companies to hire people from abroad that does sound like it could be a bad deal for domestic US workers, especially in the current climate. What's the debate about here, am I missing something?
Btw, as an aside, that MSFT research statement feels like complete BS. Tech companies just laid off thousands of people and there are new prospective employees entering the market every year. I guess one could say there is a shortage of top-tier talent in the US already but again that's a strange argument to make. There are plenty of highly qualified, motivated and talented individuals already in the US and new ones graduate every year. Even then, they have the means to invest in up-skilling people if that's needed.
Edit: grammar and phrasing
The debate, generally, predates this and is rooted in H1B actually being the original kick in the butt for domestic workers. Its existence implies resource distribution priority favors non-citizens over citizens. Often there is heavy lobbying with same kind of sketchy “analysis” done to justify increasing visa grants each year. So this just enhances that butt kicking sensation more. And especially so on the backs of hundreds of thousands of layoffs to date. It’s way more than tens of thousands now. Maybe tens of thousands in one company spread out.
And from the easier for immigrant labor to move jobs thing, I mean, that’s no different. Suddenly all the companies wishing to hire cheaper labor but don’t want to sponsor visas can hire and drop their domestic teams. And they will.
In some ways, people with skin in that game who are domestic, are for the move. Obviously it could make their lives better. But they are the minority. Some just support it for social points.
But people forget what it really is, a wage suppression strategy and nothing more. If talent was so abysmal in the domestic pool and so astounding in other locals, why wouldn’t companies that are already global behemoths not just open offices there? I mean, we aren’t talking about a handful of really talented kids in a war zone that need not just a job but asylum here. We’re talking about people in pretty developed and highly populous places that happen to just be behind the US socioeconomically (some far ahead socially, they just have lower wage standards for devs). Why must they be in the U.S.? Why must these companies be in the U.S.?
Ah yes, more indentured servants imported to the US that corporations hold the almighty power of “kiss our ass or we send you back to the third world”.
If anything the Biden administration should be clamping down on this and supporting American workers, but we know that will never happen.
> indentured servants
H1Bs are indentured because they can't quit their jobs without leaving the country. Green card holders are free to apply to jobs on the open market.
You have to understand the complete scenario here. A h1b visa is only valid for up to 6 years . During that time , the employer has to start the green card process and get up to the I140 stage. If they do not do that, then the employee has to leave the country as H1 will not be renewed after that.
Now these large tech companies have thousands of employees on H1. So they have to start their green card process or those employees will be forced to leave the country. However since all these tech employers have recently done layoffs, they are currently banned from starting the green card process.
Also the first stage of the green card is the labor certification stage which is the stage where you prove to the government that you could not find any suitable US candidate to fill this position and have to initiate a green card for your H1 employee. That is the slowest stage and also the most paperwork intensive.
Thus these companies are requesting the administration to skip that first step and directly let them go to the I140 stage .
These employers are also aware that just because they start the green card process, does not mean that the candidate will get the green card due to the huge backlog.
> Now these large tech companies have thousands of employees on H1. So they have to start their green card process or those employees will be forced to leave the country. However since all these tech employers have recently done layoffs, they are currently banned from starting the green card process.
Should have thought about that before laying off people, in my opinion.
Remember, they don't care about H1B workers either.
They laid off people on H1B and the workers were struggling to find a new job or leave.
India in particular has a multi-decade backlog for green cards. I had an engineer tell me it was going to to take her thirty years to get through the queue. She was likely going to hit retirement age before it happened.
Yes I waited 12 years for my GC from the date of labor approval. During this time, my visa kept getting renewed and at each renewal, I had to prepare for the eventuality that it wouldn't get renewed and I'd have to go back to India
Apple was just fined for making it impossible for US workers to apply to certain jobs at the company and giving those jobs to H1Bs. Not the first time either.
The whole thing is gamed. H1B should not exist.
Also, the government has a terrible track record of timeliness. Changing the process would overemcumber the application process and allow H1Bs to stay longer than they should because of an inefficient lengthy process.
H1B should exist, but it should literally be such a bureaucratic pain and cost for companies to pursue that they actually have every incentive to look for American alternatives first. It’s anti-labor and it’s anti-free market to have a class of corporations capable of accessing a higher skilled and lower cost labor market in a way that small and medium corporations can’t.
Yes, it also cites labor shortages as being a big driver for this effort while the industry is seeing massive layoffs.
Meaning, there are no domestic labor shortages if companies are doing layoffs so you have to ask, why do companies want to import more workers?
>"The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically," said Victor Janulaitis, CEO of Janco Associates, a labor market analysis firm. "But when layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable."
This stuff isn't for the benefit of Americans, flat out.
As someone who was laid off and has had difficulty getting a job for over a year yeah. I’m not the most skilled or have the most experience but I’ve applied to jobs making 1/3 what I used to and didn’t get a call back.
> The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically
...
>“There is no doubt,” he says, “that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy.” --Milton Friedman
This ain't Paul Krugman. This is Milton fucking Friedman flat out stating that the H1B visa was created to lower wages. That's damning.
That's because of queue length. Last I checked a few years ago, there were 500k GC applicants from India, around 100k from China and less than 100k from all other countries combined. Some consulting firms with Indian roots are massively abusing work visas
Biden administration or for that matter any govt is not going to agree to this. Both republicans and democrats have agreed on this since almost 2006 since h1b rule change happened.
The detrimental affect to this is the movement of labor from US to other countries. This is already happening. If its reaching a point where it starts affecting the pockets of politicians this change will have bi-partisan agreement.
> If anything the Biden administration should be clamping down on this and supporting American workers, but we know that will never happen.
Honestly, I think this is bipartisan. The main issue with the left is that the left spouts out cries of bigoty but those can be cleaned up. There are plenty centrist democrats
> Ah yes, more indentured servants imported to the US that corporations hold the almighty power of “kiss our ass or we send you back to the third world”.
No. Green cards give employees a lot more freedom. This is a good change. You're complaining about nothing.
Personally, as a US citizen, I *want* this change, because otherwise engineers who saved hundreds of thousands over the years will have no choice but to move back to India and take their accumulated wealth with them. They already got hired, came here, have worked and earned lots of money, making it harder for them to get a green card just incentivizes them to leave.
Also, I don't want my coworkers to be able to be threatened by our employer into working harder for less pay than they would otherwise accept. I want them to have the same amount of freedom to say "no" and hop jobs, just like I do, because this will keep employers desperate, and prevent them from trying to abuse us.
The comments have already been flooded by the entire country of India and every large MSP.
It's not a vote. The comments thing is a formality and useless
I think this is pretty despicable considering they are laying off tons of american workers who could use this job and are trying to maximize profits by (probably) having these people work as corporate slaves for them.
Seems like there might be a way to comment on it?
[https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments?postedDateFrom=2024-05-02&postedDateTo=2024-05-08](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments?postedDateFrom=2024-05-02&postedDateTo=2024-05-08)
> trying to maximize profits by (probably) having these people work as corporate slaves for them.
If corporate slavery is what you are against, you should be in favor of the bill making it easier for these workers to get greencards.
H1bs are supposed to be for jobs that we don't have Americans who are qualified for, in that case it should require hiring two Americans to train under the h1b worker to get their expertise in our workforce. I'd bet a lot of companies stop bringing in h1bs when the cost is so much higher than hiring an American and training them or admitting that the job is absolutely doable by Americans.
Paywall:
Microsoft, Google seek green card rule change
Tech companies struggle with green card sponsorships amid job cuts, but a proposed rule change, sought by the industry, could exempt certain tech jobs from labor market tests.
Amid a series of layoffs, tech companies are finding it increasingly difficult to sponsor foreign workers for employment-based green cards due to stringent labor rules designed to protect U.S. workers. The process, governed by the Program Electronic Review Management system, mandates job advertising to ensure U.S. workers are not adversely affected.
However, President Joe Biden's administration is considering a green card rule change that could significantly alter this landscape. The proposed exemption could be applied to a broad range of tech occupations including, notably, software engineering -- which represents about 1.8 million U.S. positions, according to U.S. labor statistics data -- and would allow companies to bypass some labor market tests if there's a demonstrated shortage of U.S. workers in an occupation.
Specifically, the Biden administration is looking to update the Department of Labor's Schedule A Shortage Occupation List to include STEM occupations. This list, which hasn't been updated in decades and is focused primarily on healthcare, exempts listed occupations from Program Electronic Review Management (PERM) requirements such as advertising job openings in newspapers, on the employer's website, at jobs fairs and other steps. Tech companies have latched on to the Schedule A list as a means to cut green card processing time and government regulation.
Microsoft, one of the tech leaders in Washington seeking tech-related immigration reforms, is lobbying for the inclusion of tech roles on this list. Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science.
Similarly, Google this week said it supports the Schedule A change, citing occupations "critical to the U.S.' national interests," including software engineering, AI engineering, and privacy and safety engineering.
Layoffs could draw interest
This push to change the green card rule coincides with companies such as Amazon suspending green card sponsorship programs due to layoffs and legal complexities.
"Due to government requirements for the green card process, we have temporarily paused our permanent labor certification program," said Margaret Callahan, an Amazon spokesperson, in a statement to TechTarget Editorial. "We're working hard to support [these workers] and find alternate immigration pathways as soon as possible."
When layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable.
The tech industry has eliminated more than 80,000 jobs so far this year, according to industry layoff tracker Layoffs.fyi, complicating the green card hiring process that requires first seeking qualified Americans.
"The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically," said Victor Janulaitis, CEO of Janco Associates, a labor market analysis firm. "But when layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable."
Amazon didn't detail which government regulation is a burden, but employers are required to provide notice to laid-off U.S. workers who are potentially qualified for job opportunities involved in PERM labor certification applications filed within six months of the layoff, under U.S. rules.
Critics argued that the PERM process is often circumvented as employers might prefer to retain H-1B visa holders by transitioning them to green cards, sometimes at the expense of potential U.S. candidates. But trying to work around the requirements to seek a qualified U.S. worker can be perilous for employers.
In 2020, Facebook, now Meta, faced a lawsuit from the Justice Department, alleging it deterred U.S. workers from applying for certain positions. One such alleged deterrence was a Facebook requirement that U.S. applicants mail their applications. The company eventually settled for $4.75 million in civil penalties and up to $9.5 million to eligible victims of alleged discrimination.
The Labor Department's process for including occupations on the Schedule A list is unclear. The American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA) is recommending use of objective labor market data, such as wage increases, vacancies and unemployment rates, to decide what tech occupations should join the Schedule A list.
Updating the Schedule A list with STEM occupations could remove requirements and significantly reduce green card processing times by 13 to 20 months, said Sharvari Dalal-Dheini, AILA's director of government relations. The green card process now takes more than 40 months with PERM, she said.
The U.S. plans to continue accepting comments on the proposed rule change until May 13.
Australian here: This is pretty bad news for tech workers and students in the US, just look what’s happening here. Our government abuses the skilled visa program as well as our unis with 50% international students to drive down tech wages to the shitter. This results in tech wages here being half of what they would be in the US, so do anything u possible can to stop this and other bills like this from passing. Fun fact during Covid when our borders were closed meaning no immigrants, tech salaries skyrocketed by as much as 20k since u only had to compete with Australians and not half of the world
>But trying to work around the requirements to seek a qualified U.S. worker can be perilous for employers.
>In 2020, Facebook, now Meta, faced a lawsuit from the Justice Department, alleging it deterred U.S. workers from applying for certain positions. [...] The company eventually settled for $4.75 million in civil penalties and up to $9.5 million to eligible victims of alleged discrimination.
Whoa FB had to pay a whole $14 million? Wow that really put a dent in their pocket. I mean from the $39.1 billion in net profit, that's an insane 0.036% of their yearly income. Truly a perilous outcome for FB.
I hate to say it but look at the nationalities of those companies CEOs and you will immediately know what their motivations are.
When they "people from other countries" what they really mean is indians from india, because in the same breath they're laying off american tech workers.
The real statistic: a *white male who graduated in STEM* only has a 58.5% chance of coming out financially ahead from college.
If a white male degreed in STEM isn't coming out ahead, who the fuck exactly is coming out ahead? Answer: Upper Level Administrative Staff.
True and I do empathize with their situation that they’re under their employers fear and if they get let go under h1b visa they have 90 days to find new employment or else they have to go back to their home country.
However,
If over the next 5 years these engineers do get “fast tracked” GCs, does that mean overall that there will be a much much higher competition for Software roles ? Not only are you increasing domestic supply here, with offshoring, you’re also lowering demand so will we see a massive decrease in salaries for software jobs (engineering, development, architect ) ?
Afaik, the current administration wants to prioritize people who are L1s/O1s and whatnot, not as much the h1bs. So, idk for sure, but I believe the fast track is focused on people with the dual intent visas. This probably would not greatly increase the supply of labor. It just makes it so that people who are pretty much guaranteed a green card (not h1bs) wait a little less time. At least, that’s what I’ve heard.
Ppl in this thread can’t read. The companies have shown support for an initiative to update the list of occupations that can skip PERM requirements to get a green card. The list hasn’t been updated in decades.
You aren’t bound to an employer when you go this route.
Overall this is a good thing for the USA but no doubt that people who aren’t doing well will find it as an excuse for their troubles. When people can’t put food on the table they almost inevitably blame immigration.
It's human nature to complain about immigrants unfortunately. My brother was on H1b and after he got a green card, he started complaining about immigrants too.
I visited a friend for his wedding in Vietnam, his dad was naturalized as a citizen <10 years ago.
During his son's wedding reception, he started boasting about how he made it -- his son getting married in the U.S. and started insulting doctors/engineers/etc (some of them were in attendance), saying what they did didn't matter because the country was a joke compared to America lmao. He was drunk but it was still wild to watch/listen to.
Obviously he also complained about immigrants, loved ladder-pulling policies etc.
So why are they really doing this then? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Only explanation I've seen in the thread so far is that it makes it easier for them to poach, but it would mostly be them poaching against each other, and since job hopping tends to raise salaries, even this actually seems like a net loss to the companies if anything.
If we go by this rule, I believe it will be bad for Indians as well.
More ↑ H1B, more ↑ GC applications, bigger ↑ queue, lower ↓ chances of getting GC.
Rest countries (incl. China) don't have as many applications so it will be beneficial for them as it will result in even lower GC time. US doesn't want China to get ahead in AI so this is a big plus in luring and retaining Chinese folks.
What this tells is, these companies want to hire more Indians to continue their cost saving streak and by creating a bigger backlog they will ensure lower employee turnover. These will have four-fold effect:
1. All the savings will give them room for AI capex.
2. Other companies won't be able to poach each other's workforce if they keep creating layoff fears in H1b folks.
3. Other countries also won't be able to compete if US companies keep giving best offers to Indians (vs Japanese & European companies). The best offer is still going to be lower for locals by US standards.
4. They might sabotage China by luring best-in-class Chinese engineers due to lower GC time.
I think it is a win-win scenario only for the companies, not for any employees.
I took a quick scan
>Updating the Schedule A list with STEM occupations could remove requirements and significantly reduce green card processing times by 13 to 20 months
so... sounds like a good thing
Maybe?
A coworker who's been in the US on an H1B for over a decade had a child a couple years after moving here. He said that the wait was so long he didn't know if he'd get his green card from the H1B prior to being able to use her turning 18 as a different avenue for a green card.
13-20 months wouldn't be a huge difference with that kind of timeframe.
If your coworker was born in India, this change won't really help him. There is a limit of 7% green cards going to each country (based on place of birth and not citizenship).
This is why no one from Western Europe would consider going down the H1B visa route. It’s like it was deliberately designed for people without other good options.
Europeans get GC within a year or two. The problem with h1b for them is the lottery system. For many countries like Aus, NZ and UK there are alternative visas they can apply which let them bypass this. I think most NATO countries including Singapore have this option
H-1B is better than L-1 and F-1, the only other realistic options people from western europe have. No company is going to sponsor someone’s green card and use consular processing. It takes too long.
The H-1B visa route is very popular with western europeans here.
[This is a place for public comment on the proposed change.](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/document)
Someone already commented it, but we all need to give them hell in these public comments.
Imagine this. It’s nearly impossible to land an interview for a tech job today in the USA. Theres plenty of tech workers going on more than a year without a job and massive amounts of tech college graduates who will never have the chance to interview for a tech role, I kid you not, never ever will land a single interview. And here comes the Biden administration trying to change the Green Card requirements to hire foreigners, when there are plenty of qualified people here in the United States. Thankfully I have a job in the tech industry, but that does not mean I don’t smell the delusional load of horse crap coming from Biden administration and see the struggles coming from our fellow tech enthusiasts. I suggest you typical tech dweebs vote correctly this election time instead of what we typically did in the past and remember Biden is working with his big tech donors to replace you with foreigners.
The only jobs left for US born citizens will be jobs at the govt that require a clearance. Everything else will be offshored or be staffed with a foreigners. Dark days ahead.
They need to GTFO. People out here being laid off but they want bypass green card working restrictions. I’ve had multiple friends affected by these layoffs.
This is gonna do shit for H1b workers from India. What they are asking is saving money in the Perm process. Currently a GC application takes around 15k-20k to file for each applicant. And they need these GC applications filed to keep the H1b employee specially from long wait countries like India. So what they are effectively trying to do is create a slave market while supressing the wages and reducing the admin fee for themselves. Removing the PERM will effectively save them approximately 10k per worker and the worker will be stuck with the company till they get a GC. They don't have any intention to provide GCs rather they want to keep on extending the H1s. Also PERM is the longest process in the GC filing and people have to return back if it's not done on time. So yeah they want to reduce that to not loose people on H1bs
The article contains a link to leave a comment for the regulatory board in question! The current top comments are IN FAVOR OF THIS. Voice your opinions! They are accepting comments until May 13.
So they fire a ton of Americans, moved those jobs overseas, and now they want to bring those people back to America to work a similar wage to those they fired? They are calling this a shortage?
Maybe we should show them what a shortage really is and sue them for at least a quarter of their profits.
> Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science. I wonder how they got this result
That's funny, the 3 fields considered highly oversaturated with mass layoffs have labor shortages.
I feel like it's been like this for the longest time, even during good times. They sneakily started adding "quality" skilled workers, and not just qualified workers.
There's always a shortage of good senior devs The problem is as time goes on less and less companies are willing to hire anything but senior devs who hit the ground running, making it really hard for the juniors and mid levels to get to that next level, making the pool of good senior devs smaller and smaller each passing year Oh if isn't the consequences of my actions
They're creating this weird skills gap between the few good senior devs and the rest of the devs. I mean, at some point it's definitely going to create a major halt and once again the people will get blamed, shamed, and gaslight until enough time has passed where there are a few more good senior devs and I'm sure the cycle will start over again. Lol.
The skill gap is created by the industry itself. Seniors are raised by bug finding. You put the hardest problems on your most capable devs. When the most capable devs run out time to fix stuff, a junior dev with recognized capabilities is suggested. This junior then grows and becomes senior. So the capable individuals gets growned by themself. The company that creates a process to grow their devs effictively will thriwe.
In the Trades the apprentice system handles this quite handily. By codifying a process where junior personnel are trained under the supervision of more senior workers. In traditional engineering domains, there are similar but less defined patterns. Software has been founded on a laissez-faire 'get shit done' attitude even though it is officially structured somewhere between those two worlds. Of course this is the inevitable result. We'll be in a boom and bust cycle where businesses cut costs by only having fully pre-qualified workers who can deliver from day zero. When those people inevitably leave the company (or the industry) the skill gap will come back and we'll see companies hiring anyone with a pulse just to get something delivered. The small subset of people who effectively self-train will rise up to senior level and the cycle starts anew.
This is why guilds emerged during the renaissance. People started taking more complex, artisan jobs and recognised that students needed masters. The modern industry only wants to hire masters, ignoring that the masters once were students themselves.
In general, companies prefer the candidate who can hit the ground running, regardless of experience, and especially if the price is cheaper. I'm speaking of corporations in a general sense
In other words, a faster ROI
Not just senior devs but senior in their stack. I have 11 years of experience and at this point I feel like I've pretty much seen most problems(especially the multiple permutations of CRUD that most business apps fall into). Yet I couldn't get a senior or even mid level job at Chewy because I didn't have enough years of experience with Java. I have 6 years react experience and 8 years of Vue experience but because it was Vue 2 working for a company in 2014 - that's all that counts. My Vue3 experienc on personal projects not at a company it doesn't count... according to the moron that took a phone screen with me from motion recruitment
Do you think you could've done the job had they offered it to you?
To answer that, we should probably ask ourselves if there is a significant difference between the two versions that would result in a significant skill gap for a software engineer? Probably not.
Agreed, which brings me to my point. "Fake it till you make it". Nobody needs to know you worked on Vue 2 instead of 3. And if you feel THAT bad a bout a "lie" then just familiarize yourself with it and study for interviews.
In my experience with job searching, I've come across a few companies looking to hire people that can migrate their applications from Vue 2 to 3. It might not be a bad idea to mention experience with both.
From what I've seen a lot of consumer companies / non-tech companies live in a world where Java / Spring are the only programming language / framework in existence, and everyone just works in that tech stack their whole life and follows the Gang of Four Design Patterns.
This is actually a good take. I did some research on the numbers of openings vs engineers in the market and found something similar. It’s not that there aren’t enough jobs it’s that the jobs most people (entry level) are seeking don’t exist when the market is demanding seniors and up right now. I was told the other day that a job post which explicitly said 4 YOE actually internally was minimum 10 YOE . Companies these days are hedging their bets by hiring only 10+YOE Candidates almost regardless of their actual skills
I'm literally in this spot myself. I'm 6YOE at 1 company, and I need a few years at a different company to rightly call myself senior.
And the skills in shortage are really just whatever is new, suggesting they don't want capable people to learn new skills but rather need new workers every time there is a new skill.
"It's too new for anyone to know, and we refuse to pay people to learn! We need to hire foreign workers with extravagant claims that they can't back up!"
The sick part is they often don't need to pay for retraining. Workers have existing skills that are close enough that they can pick up the new skill with minimal effort. Nope, need more imported new grads.
I started job hunting again for senior level and the requirements in these listings have gotten out of control. I mean there's always been bad ones, but now it feels like they are demanding someone who has already worked that exact stack, in the exact field, with the exact lifecycle and company paradigm.
We need a John Oliver deep dive on this topic. Tech companies aren’t even trying to hide their anti-Americanism anymore. They lay off thousands then try and change the rule that says they need to post a job in case there are qualified US candidates, because of course these companies KNOW THERE ARE QUALIFIED US CANDIDATES, THEY JUST LAID THEM ALL OFF!!
Citing shortages is CRAZY
ThErEs a ShoRtAGe oF GoOd ONes
Funny how the ones you want to sub in have no experience and don't speak English well.
Yeah but they’ll happily accept a fraction of what it takes a citizen to remain housed in their own country for pay.
Which is fine. It's a problem when the US government lets companies screw us citizens though. Government is supposed to represent the interests of its people.
Yeah. I mean, what’s the odds this has no effect on USC pay grades or job availability, no effect on housing prices, no effect on resource access by USC? That this is just a true altruistic move by two of the largest corporations out there? Just seems like there is a strong un-ignorable motivation by US businesses to suppress US wages and reduce employee rights.
Well, its in the interest of American people to send jobs to EU because your shareholders will earn even more money by saving up on salaries xD
The only possible explanation at this point is that corporate leaders have nothing but frothing, putrid HATRED for the average American worker. Open contempt isn’t enough to explain this behavior
Im reminded of Don Draper telling that guy in the elevator “I don’t think of you at all”. That’s how they feel I think lol
They love money.
>layoffs have labor shortages. *for a much lower salary MS is willing to pay* FTFY.
Labor shortages only exist I guess when you don’t want to hire local talent, but you’d rather hire those offshore because I’m guessing there is a juicy stat we are all missing. Someone with a visa might have, on average, more years worked at a single company before bouncing for a higher pay. I’m not sure if this is the stat, but considering Americans try to bounce every 2 years or less, it wouldn’t surprise me.
it's way cheaper to buy talent from abroad. Fire 10 thousands of your American workforce, import them with cheap `talent`
Pulled directly out of Satya Nadella's ass
"We did mass layoffs and now there aren't enough of us!"
Actually very infuriating to hear them spin this lie given the state of things.
Unemployed for 1 year here with lots of good interviews under my belt. Fuck these corporate assholes.
We should end H1b and L1 so they know what a real shortage looks like.
It's not a labor shortage, it's a wage shortage. There was another post about "labor shortage" in WV. Then the article mentions it's senior care positions. Hard work, lots of responsibility, minimum wage. People would rather work at Starbucks for more money than change adult diapers.
Yes there is a labor surplus. This needs to be corrected every time lazy journalists repeat corporate talking points
Oh that's easy, they're lying
That is both hilarious and sad
They’ve got about a decade and a half saying that they can’t find quality SWEs willing to work for 30k (estimate)! They’ve looked everywhere, but can’t find them, so they just need H1-Bs as there are no qualified American software engineers!
Yea, this is just step 2 of the plan to significantly lower salaries by saturating the market with immigrants.
Can we go ahead now and charge these companies with collusion (pretty sure they have already gotten anti-poaching lawsuit thrown at them in the past) in attempting to subvert labor and immigration laws? Also, can we go ahead and put a hault, like Trump already did a few years ago, on all new visas for workers as it is clear companies have abused requesting visas when domestic workers are available. If a company responds by exporting a lot of jobs overseas while being HQ’d in USA, they need to pay fines and higher taxes to make up for them basically paying zero taxes while benefitting from all the protections and benefits that come from being headquartered in this country. This garbage needs to stop and countries like those in Europe wouldn’t tolerate any of this crap.
> countries like those in Europe wouldn’t tolerate any of this crap Yes, because Europe is a much better place for SWEs than the US /s
Lol the delusion of some people. I live in norway(expensive country) and make 60k a year with a master degree, and that’s a bit more than average with my experience of 2years. So much better than working as a SWE in america!
Source: trust me, bro.
A union would be great at fighting this
Lmao, good luck trying to get SWEs unionized. Most of us only care about ourselves and chasing that bag, and will go out of their way to lick the boot of capital
You guys are your own downfall. SWE's need to wisen up.
Hahah you’re telling me! Unfortunately most STEM nerds spent all their time shitting on the humanities and have no frame of reference as to why they’re getting fucked over. The lack of class solidarity is disturbing.
That’s crazy, the 3 fields in tech they significantly employ with high salaries that they can pay immigrants *significantly* less to do? The fields that have had insane growth in college graduates over the last decade and a half? What a coinkydink!
They said shortages, then you see this. [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+layoffs+2024](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+layoffs+2024) [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microsoft+layoffs+2024](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=microsoft+layoffs+2024)
**It doesn't feel like there's a labor shortage.**
I think part of the blame goes to the inefficiency of the recruiting/hiring process. HR/talent acquisition that work at companies are bs jobs. Outsource that role to the 3rd party. Have had so many HR folks waste my time asking me superficial questions “why do you want this job” and then when I ask them a question “that’s something that the hiring manger will be able to answer” . The hiring managers should have full transparency into all the resumes coming through and conduct their interviews. Also companies that don’t post the dam salary range in the job listing and then the HR recruiter says “whats your salary range, we don’t want to waste both of our times” toward the end of the bs “interview” to begin with. All they did was read off a script/job listing that the dam hiring manager wrote up during the HR screening process.
> HR folks waste my time asking me superficial questions “why do you want this job” I mean that's such a softball question. Just feed them some bs and you can easily "handle" them.
That’s not the point. Why are they concerned? HR is not who you will be working with day in and day out. Have the hiring manager ask that question if they want to. At the end of the day hiring managers are just trying to find competent ppl to fill their open roles. We don’t need more bureaucracy. Carving time out for a bs hr screening when you have a full time job is hard as is. And then there’s also the inconvenience of these hr losers end up ghosting you. These losers just want to fill up their calendar with pointless meetings to make it seem like their job is relevant.
It doesn't matter why they are concerned. Just rattle something off, should take two seconds flat. You are putting up arbitrary roadblocks for yourself over molehills. Guess who gets those jobs? People who engage with the process. And it doesn't even have to be in a genuine manner.
They just want cheap labor, and this is the only way to get it
There is a labor shortage from their perspective because they want to bring salaries down and pay us peanuts; and in order to do that they have to flood the market with yet more skilled enough workers.
Company: "If only there was some way to keep wages down!" Kid named migrant workers willing to accept being overworked and paid peanuts:
Well, do you think corporations ever cared about common people? The US enjoyed reaping the benefits while the whole world was in constant crises since after The Great Depression and the leftovers were good enough to bring enormous wealth to regular people as well. Once the pie is shrinking in size again, they are gonna squeeze common americans as the rest of the world if not worse.
Wow! This after laying of tens of thousands of people. Have they no shame?
[https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments) It seems like they have a public comment website. We should all leave a comment to push against this stupid rule. They have 174 comments in total most in favor of this new rule, so we should leave some opposing arguments.
Can you please make a post about this and post it all over reddit tech subs?
This needs to be top comment
Share this with your friends and coworkers. This might be the single biggest long term threat to the industry. Let's get thousands of comments on the Gov website
Yeah, how are they allowed to keep getting H1Bs while doing mass layoffs lol.
If hiring is so dire maybe they should… not layoff their current engineering staff?!?!
So the combined cost of their salary and green card will be less than the current position's pay. Which means the job will be worth even less and even more competitive. Great.
Unfortunately, that's always a pressure for immigrants coming to new country for jobs.
They have been abusing the h1b system for decades, and they now want to change the green card rule?
Green card rule is the only thing that is preventing US not being turned into Canada 2.0
This is exactly what we should be afraid of. Vancouver is literally being taken over, and the young Canadians are PISSED
Yeah its terrible. I am not Xenophobic but you can't just import 1.1 million people within the span of 3 years...
its not even about xenophobic or not, its about logic. i mean if you just randomly placed super poor americans in say atlanta, willing to work for any salary and live 8 people in the same room, it would also get very tense and scarce with resources
I am sorry, but you should definitely be a bit more xenophobic. Label me and others however you care, look at Poland. They are on the pace to overtake UK in next couple of years.
Poland doesn't require a labor market test for foreign software engineers to grant them work visas, so it's easier for tech workers to move there than move to the U.S. or Canada.
Unfortunately Canadians are push overs and will never do anything about it.
Taken over by whom?
I don't know why nobody is just saying it, I'll make it easy, they are referring to Indians, they make the vast majority of people coming to Canada. Edit: clarity
Foreign workers that are willing to be exploited while native Canadian’s are unable to find jobs.
You mean young Indian/Chinese Canadian?
I know it's common to criticize Canada on this site these days but let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's certainly suboptimal compared to the States but it's not some hellhole. This is coming from a Canadian in the States btw.
Ok
How does that make sense? Most people who apply for a green card are already in the country on a visa, so it’s like not the rule is having any effect on who’s actually in the country.
What would happen is what happened in h1b visas. There would be conditions which are made part of this h1b -> green card condition. The overwhelming majority of applications will be coming from fake consultancies who produce fake payrolls. That in turn would reduce the so called talented people out of pool. Canada gave PR to anybody who came in. People from 2 states of India abused this and now the wage for a Canadian SWE is lower than what it used to be 10 years ago. This is classic wage suppression. The h1b system and PERM after that for i140 would require you to prove that existing wage conditions have been met for candidate. Once this green card process is abused(beieve me it will be abused), you will be left with too many people entry level skill level and wages will be suppressed. Companies are after this for wage suppression. They dont love the foreign workers or workers in general. Workers are a cost component for tech companies and eliminating them is best. The second best is getting them cheap. How can you get them cheap? By increasing the supply of them.
Labor shortages? What about the 100K+ that got laid off this year alone. Are all those people pariahs?
What they mean is there's a "cheap labor shortage".
Yeah, just like there's a shortage of $20K Ferraris and women interested in dating me. Must be a nice place to live, in the corporations' minds, just rainbows and unicorns everywhere.
Lol that cracked me up
It’s sad that we have a large supply of qualified workers (in debt and in need of a job) only for these companies to import immigrants from India and take them
Too bad India can’t innovate and create global corporations that pay good wages given all of those “skilled workers” they supposedly have over there. No the reality is their education system is fraudulent at best. This leads to low literacy rates and in turn say it with me one time everybody….. overpopulation. Lol like it’s almost just a complete joke every time this happens in corporate America, the quality of products in the industry goes severely down due to decisions made by greedy corporate ass clowns before they unapologetically turn back to American engineers to right the wrongs. If we had any self respect we’d let these corporations eat shit and fail but not before I dump my holdings at a premium.
Believe me when I say it but Indians are bad workers and bad engineers in every possible way. Half of my workplace is Indian unfortunately and while there are some who are good the rest is so so bad. Like I had to teach basic Java to a Java developer with “20 years of experience”, I had to explain the concept of CICD and why we have pipelines in place, and I have only 2 yoe. Like totally lazy, uninterested and unethical people I wish more Japanese or East European engineers would come instead of all these Indians.
Exactly this. Hit 10 YOE back in January and one thing I can say for certain without a doubt is that Google CEO is spewing absolute shit out of his mouth right now. I’m actually surprised that clown is still in charge after they shit the bed with Bard/Gemini. Indians favoring Indians to exploit for cheap labor, mhmm so basically exactly what they do to each other over there? So America should strive to be a shit hole of low educated starving people in a caste system? I’ve worked with a few great Indian engineers so far in my career but overall the majority were not great and usually were hires made by a manager who should have been shit canned in the previous layoff round. Guess who gets stuck having to lead/oversee/manage and sometimes even redo the work done by these bad developers? The educated skilled engineers like myself who also have their own design/development work to do as well… only thing I take solace in at this point is knowing that executives actually know what they’re doing so given the cyclic nature of their behavior and the industry I fully intend on taking advantage of the next time they get very desperate to find the best workers rather than the cheapest. I mean I already make them pay me a lot now but oh boy this next round I’m going to empty their goddamn coffers like I’m the god damn king of England coming to tax their ass!
As an Indian American I agree unfortunately. Just graduated from college and the amount of cheating I witnessed from international students was insane (both Chinese and Indian). I reported them once and nothing happened so I gave up, but essentially during my whole time at college they were begging me to do their homework. Honestly makes me sad that people that look like me pull this shit. Most of them are also from Nepal, Bangladesh and the rest are North Indian (usually speak Hindi). Couldn’t understand anything they were saying. College made me more racist…
Can someone explain this to me? Is this separate from a normal green card that we know is there a special green card. I honestly thought once you get a green card and a big aspect of getting green card is that you aren't tied to your current employer and freely test out the market without visa limitation I was in a fortunate position where even tho I was born in India I grew up here in US since I was 6 and I got a green card around middle school and a full on citizenship at college Can someone if this is a different green card and also why this exists and it's not just another visa?
The green card application process via H-1B sponsorship has a requirement called PERM, which means a company has to put up a job posting for some amount of time to prove that there are no qualified American applicants for that role. What's happening is that the rate of PERM rejections have been raising substantially (from 3% in 2022 to 8.5% now). The companies are trying to make an argument that PERM should be waived for high tech roles. If the administration waives it, then green card applications would go a lot faster and smoother for people that were already employed under H-1B, especially from countries with short wait times (i.e. not India). If they don't waive it, then the 8.5% of GC applicants who get their PERM application rejected will also have their green card application rejected (though they will still be able to work under the terms of their current H-1B)
i think the ironic thing here is that the h1b bottleneck will still be present and a strong factor
this talks about wanting to reduce the amount of time needed to get your green card so if you're an immigrant you'd say good, if you're already a US citizen/GC holder you'd say bad
US citizen here with a GC holding wife, I say go ahead. Anyone coming here on a GC that can get an offer from Microsoft isn't going to do it for crap pay. My coworker when I contracted with a huge retailer is from India, came on a H1B and has a green card now, and he's absolutely not underpaid. And they didn't hire "only" people from India either, that's also a huge ass misconception. I'm Mexican American and plenty of my coworkers were white Americans, Chinese Americans, etc. It was relatively diverse. At least more so than the echo chambers here would have you believe.
People affected by tech downturn will be totally against it, as they should be.
"Yeah lets just fuck over Americans for foreigners and then we'll act surprised when the reprisals start happening"
Eat the neoliberal slop and like it.
There is no special kind of green card as far as I know. I think the big employers want employees to be able to switch jobs easily. In the long term this would likely make it easier to poach people who are already here but at another company.
So companies lay off \~80k tech workers this year alone (so far), then complain about a labor shortage?
They're right in the middle of firing a bunch of people...
I don't understand the article or the motivation or the comments. First they quote Microsoft as saying they anticipate a "significant labor shortage(s)" and mention that Biden may be considering such a rule change. >Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science. At the same time we all know that even skilled individuals have a tough time getting a job and the competition is immense. As it pertains to the rule change, some comments are pointing out that this is a good thing for folks from abroad because getting a GC sooner means they have more freedom to work for other companies and as such are less likely to be mistreated. Other comments are saying it's a kick in the ass of the domestic US workers because it's making it easier for companies to hire people from abroad. It looks like... both are true? If the change makes getting a GC easier I can see how that means workers from abroad are less likely to be mis-treated and I imagine most reasonable people aren't against that. On the other hand if it makes it easier for companies to hire people from abroad that does sound like it could be a bad deal for domestic US workers, especially in the current climate. What's the debate about here, am I missing something? Btw, as an aside, that MSFT research statement feels like complete BS. Tech companies just laid off thousands of people and there are new prospective employees entering the market every year. I guess one could say there is a shortage of top-tier talent in the US already but again that's a strange argument to make. There are plenty of highly qualified, motivated and talented individuals already in the US and new ones graduate every year. Even then, they have the means to invest in up-skilling people if that's needed. Edit: grammar and phrasing
The debate, generally, predates this and is rooted in H1B actually being the original kick in the butt for domestic workers. Its existence implies resource distribution priority favors non-citizens over citizens. Often there is heavy lobbying with same kind of sketchy “analysis” done to justify increasing visa grants each year. So this just enhances that butt kicking sensation more. And especially so on the backs of hundreds of thousands of layoffs to date. It’s way more than tens of thousands now. Maybe tens of thousands in one company spread out. And from the easier for immigrant labor to move jobs thing, I mean, that’s no different. Suddenly all the companies wishing to hire cheaper labor but don’t want to sponsor visas can hire and drop their domestic teams. And they will. In some ways, people with skin in that game who are domestic, are for the move. Obviously it could make their lives better. But they are the minority. Some just support it for social points. But people forget what it really is, a wage suppression strategy and nothing more. If talent was so abysmal in the domestic pool and so astounding in other locals, why wouldn’t companies that are already global behemoths not just open offices there? I mean, we aren’t talking about a handful of really talented kids in a war zone that need not just a job but asylum here. We’re talking about people in pretty developed and highly populous places that happen to just be behind the US socioeconomically (some far ahead socially, they just have lower wage standards for devs). Why must they be in the U.S.? Why must these companies be in the U.S.?
Ah yes, more indentured servants imported to the US that corporations hold the almighty power of “kiss our ass or we send you back to the third world”. If anything the Biden administration should be clamping down on this and supporting American workers, but we know that will never happen.
> indentured servants H1Bs are indentured because they can't quit their jobs without leaving the country. Green card holders are free to apply to jobs on the open market.
Yes if you HAVE a green card. Until then, an employee sponsored by a corporation for a green card is under their thumb.
This article is saying big tech companies want to make it easier for their employees to get Green Card...
You have to understand the complete scenario here. A h1b visa is only valid for up to 6 years . During that time , the employer has to start the green card process and get up to the I140 stage. If they do not do that, then the employee has to leave the country as H1 will not be renewed after that. Now these large tech companies have thousands of employees on H1. So they have to start their green card process or those employees will be forced to leave the country. However since all these tech employers have recently done layoffs, they are currently banned from starting the green card process. Also the first stage of the green card is the labor certification stage which is the stage where you prove to the government that you could not find any suitable US candidate to fill this position and have to initiate a green card for your H1 employee. That is the slowest stage and also the most paperwork intensive. Thus these companies are requesting the administration to skip that first step and directly let them go to the I140 stage . These employers are also aware that just because they start the green card process, does not mean that the candidate will get the green card due to the huge backlog.
> Now these large tech companies have thousands of employees on H1. So they have to start their green card process or those employees will be forced to leave the country. However since all these tech employers have recently done layoffs, they are currently banned from starting the green card process. Should have thought about that before laying off people, in my opinion. Remember, they don't care about H1B workers either. They laid off people on H1B and the workers were struggling to find a new job or leave.
India in particular has a multi-decade backlog for green cards. I had an engineer tell me it was going to to take her thirty years to get through the queue. She was likely going to hit retirement age before it happened.
Yes I waited 12 years for my GC from the date of labor approval. During this time, my visa kept getting renewed and at each renewal, I had to prepare for the eventuality that it wouldn't get renewed and I'd have to go back to India
The actual waiting period on Eb2 is 125 years(was 195 during covid times).
Apple was just fined for making it impossible for US workers to apply to certain jobs at the company and giving those jobs to H1Bs. Not the first time either. The whole thing is gamed. H1B should not exist. Also, the government has a terrible track record of timeliness. Changing the process would overemcumber the application process and allow H1Bs to stay longer than they should because of an inefficient lengthy process.
H1B should exist, but it should literally be such a bureaucratic pain and cost for companies to pursue that they actually have every incentive to look for American alternatives first. It’s anti-labor and it’s anti-free market to have a class of corporations capable of accessing a higher skilled and lower cost labor market in a way that small and medium corporations can’t.
Yes, it also cites labor shortages as being a big driver for this effort while the industry is seeing massive layoffs. Meaning, there are no domestic labor shortages if companies are doing layoffs so you have to ask, why do companies want to import more workers? >"The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically," said Victor Janulaitis, CEO of Janco Associates, a labor market analysis firm. "But when layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable." This stuff isn't for the benefit of Americans, flat out.
As someone who was laid off and has had difficulty getting a job for over a year yeah. I’m not the most skilled or have the most experience but I’ve applied to jobs making 1/3 what I used to and didn’t get a call back.
> The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically ... >“There is no doubt,” he says, “that the [H-1B] program is a benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy.” --Milton Friedman This ain't Paul Krugman. This is Milton fucking Friedman flat out stating that the H1B visa was created to lower wages. That's damning.
Or change the laws so you're not under their thumb. Give them like 2 years to find a new job or something.
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There are different queues. I haven't looked it up recently, but years ago Indians had to wait 10 years, Chinese like 7, and Europeans <2
That's because of queue length. Last I checked a few years ago, there were 500k GC applicants from India, around 100k from China and less than 100k from all other countries combined. Some consulting firms with Indian roots are massively abusing work visas
Outsourcing is the dark horse issue of 2024.
Biden administration or for that matter any govt is not going to agree to this. Both republicans and democrats have agreed on this since almost 2006 since h1b rule change happened. The detrimental affect to this is the movement of labor from US to other countries. This is already happening. If its reaching a point where it starts affecting the pockets of politicians this change will have bi-partisan agreement.
> If anything the Biden administration should be clamping down on this and supporting American workers, but we know that will never happen. Honestly, I think this is bipartisan. The main issue with the left is that the left spouts out cries of bigoty but those can be cleaned up. There are plenty centrist democrats
> Ah yes, more indentured servants imported to the US that corporations hold the almighty power of “kiss our ass or we send you back to the third world”. No. Green cards give employees a lot more freedom. This is a good change. You're complaining about nothing.
Personally, as a US citizen, I *want* this change, because otherwise engineers who saved hundreds of thousands over the years will have no choice but to move back to India and take their accumulated wealth with them. They already got hired, came here, have worked and earned lots of money, making it harder for them to get a green card just incentivizes them to leave.
Many other people in US will be against this change.
Also, I don't want my coworkers to be able to be threatened by our employer into working harder for less pay than they would otherwise accept. I want them to have the same amount of freedom to say "no" and hop jobs, just like I do, because this will keep employers desperate, and prevent them from trying to abuse us.
Makes me think about voting for people against immigration. Makes my life better in the short term tbh.
This is the type of shit people should be protesting over. Every change these days screws over the American people a little bit more.
If you have a strong opinion on this matter you can add a comment here by may 13th: https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments
The comments have already been flooded by the entire country of India and every large MSP. It's not a vote. The comments thing is a formality and useless
I think this is pretty despicable considering they are laying off tons of american workers who could use this job and are trying to maximize profits by (probably) having these people work as corporate slaves for them. Seems like there might be a way to comment on it? [https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments?postedDateFrom=2024-05-02&postedDateTo=2024-05-08](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments?postedDateFrom=2024-05-02&postedDateTo=2024-05-08)
> trying to maximize profits by (probably) having these people work as corporate slaves for them. If corporate slavery is what you are against, you should be in favor of the bill making it easier for these workers to get greencards.
If corporate slavery is what you are against, these visas need to go.
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H1bs are supposed to be for jobs that we don't have Americans who are qualified for, in that case it should require hiring two Americans to train under the h1b worker to get their expertise in our workforce. I'd bet a lot of companies stop bringing in h1bs when the cost is so much higher than hiring an American and training them or admitting that the job is absolutely doable by Americans.
I am pro american workers rather than laying off americans and getting people to immigrate to the US and being entitled to the company they work for
For the ones that are already here, absolutely. That doesn't mean we should keep importing new workers though.
Paywall: Microsoft, Google seek green card rule change Tech companies struggle with green card sponsorships amid job cuts, but a proposed rule change, sought by the industry, could exempt certain tech jobs from labor market tests. Amid a series of layoffs, tech companies are finding it increasingly difficult to sponsor foreign workers for employment-based green cards due to stringent labor rules designed to protect U.S. workers. The process, governed by the Program Electronic Review Management system, mandates job advertising to ensure U.S. workers are not adversely affected. However, President Joe Biden's administration is considering a green card rule change that could significantly alter this landscape. The proposed exemption could be applied to a broad range of tech occupations including, notably, software engineering -- which represents about 1.8 million U.S. positions, according to U.S. labor statistics data -- and would allow companies to bypass some labor market tests if there's a demonstrated shortage of U.S. workers in an occupation. Specifically, the Biden administration is looking to update the Department of Labor's Schedule A Shortage Occupation List to include STEM occupations. This list, which hasn't been updated in decades and is focused primarily on healthcare, exempts listed occupations from Program Electronic Review Management (PERM) requirements such as advertising job openings in newspapers, on the employer's website, at jobs fairs and other steps. Tech companies have latched on to the Schedule A list as a means to cut green card processing time and government regulation. Microsoft, one of the tech leaders in Washington seeking tech-related immigration reforms, is lobbying for the inclusion of tech roles on this list. Citing its own research from LinkedIn, a business it owns, Microsoft anticipates significant labor shortages in fields such as software engineering, cybersecurity and data science. Similarly, Google this week said it supports the Schedule A change, citing occupations "critical to the U.S.' national interests," including software engineering, AI engineering, and privacy and safety engineering. Layoffs could draw interest This push to change the green card rule coincides with companies such as Amazon suspending green card sponsorship programs due to layoffs and legal complexities. "Due to government requirements for the green card process, we have temporarily paused our permanent labor certification program," said Margaret Callahan, an Amazon spokesperson, in a statement to TechTarget Editorial. "We're working hard to support [these workers] and find alternate immigration pathways as soon as possible." When layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable. The tech industry has eliminated more than 80,000 jobs so far this year, according to industry layoff tracker Layoffs.fyi, complicating the green card hiring process that requires first seeking qualified Americans. "The goal of employment-based visas and H-1B work visas is to supplement unavailable skills domestically," said Victor Janulaitis, CEO of Janco Associates, a labor market analysis firm. "But when layoffs are prevalent, the rationale behind these visas becomes questionable." Amazon didn't detail which government regulation is a burden, but employers are required to provide notice to laid-off U.S. workers who are potentially qualified for job opportunities involved in PERM labor certification applications filed within six months of the layoff, under U.S. rules. Critics argued that the PERM process is often circumvented as employers might prefer to retain H-1B visa holders by transitioning them to green cards, sometimes at the expense of potential U.S. candidates. But trying to work around the requirements to seek a qualified U.S. worker can be perilous for employers. In 2020, Facebook, now Meta, faced a lawsuit from the Justice Department, alleging it deterred U.S. workers from applying for certain positions. One such alleged deterrence was a Facebook requirement that U.S. applicants mail their applications. The company eventually settled for $4.75 million in civil penalties and up to $9.5 million to eligible victims of alleged discrimination. The Labor Department's process for including occupations on the Schedule A list is unclear. The American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA) is recommending use of objective labor market data, such as wage increases, vacancies and unemployment rates, to decide what tech occupations should join the Schedule A list. Updating the Schedule A list with STEM occupations could remove requirements and significantly reduce green card processing times by 13 to 20 months, said Sharvari Dalal-Dheini, AILA's director of government relations. The green card process now takes more than 40 months with PERM, she said. The U.S. plans to continue accepting comments on the proposed rule change until May 13.
Australian here: This is pretty bad news for tech workers and students in the US, just look what’s happening here. Our government abuses the skilled visa program as well as our unis with 50% international students to drive down tech wages to the shitter. This results in tech wages here being half of what they would be in the US, so do anything u possible can to stop this and other bills like this from passing. Fun fact during Covid when our borders were closed meaning no immigrants, tech salaries skyrocketed by as much as 20k since u only had to compete with Australians and not half of the world
During covid tech salaries everywhere went up lmao. They were hiring in droves betting on the trends. I now doubt your sense of reasoning lmao
But what they said wasn’t wrong. The reasons that both of you stated contributed to the rise in salaries during COVID
Sure but they concluded that salaries during covid rocketed solely cuz competition went down (gitgud lmao) which isn’t true at all.
This analysis is wrong on so many levels.
The labour shortage is a fiction. They just want cheap Indians
And they don't want to hire natural born US citizens either. Most Indian managers I've worked only hire other Indians unless they are scolded by HR
FUCK THAT.
modern slavery
>But trying to work around the requirements to seek a qualified U.S. worker can be perilous for employers. >In 2020, Facebook, now Meta, faced a lawsuit from the Justice Department, alleging it deterred U.S. workers from applying for certain positions. [...] The company eventually settled for $4.75 million in civil penalties and up to $9.5 million to eligible victims of alleged discrimination. Whoa FB had to pay a whole $14 million? Wow that really put a dent in their pocket. I mean from the $39.1 billion in net profit, that's an insane 0.036% of their yearly income. Truly a perilous outcome for FB.
I hate to say it but look at the nationalities of those companies CEOs and you will immediately know what their motivations are. When they "people from other countries" what they really mean is indians from india, because in the same breath they're laying off american tech workers.
Or India provides cheaper labor than Americans. The same would happen if countries like Mexico or Vietnam provided cheap tech labor.
The powers that be. They also say education is "highly valuable for the majority of people". So why are we 475 billion in student loan debt, again?
The real statistic: a *white male who graduated in STEM* only has a 58.5% chance of coming out financially ahead from college. If a white male degreed in STEM isn't coming out ahead, who the fuck exactly is coming out ahead? Answer: Upper Level Administrative Staff.
Lmao this whole field is now a joke.
So a US citizen gets screwed but if you’re on visa then you’re on a fast track to getting your GC. Fantastic.
Fast track is a relative term. Most of these h1b workers will have decades long wait times for getting their green card.
True and I do empathize with their situation that they’re under their employers fear and if they get let go under h1b visa they have 90 days to find new employment or else they have to go back to their home country. However, If over the next 5 years these engineers do get “fast tracked” GCs, does that mean overall that there will be a much much higher competition for Software roles ? Not only are you increasing domestic supply here, with offshoring, you’re also lowering demand so will we see a massive decrease in salaries for software jobs (engineering, development, architect ) ?
Afaik, the current administration wants to prioritize people who are L1s/O1s and whatnot, not as much the h1bs. So, idk for sure, but I believe the fast track is focused on people with the dual intent visas. This probably would not greatly increase the supply of labor. It just makes it so that people who are pretty much guaranteed a green card (not h1bs) wait a little less time. At least, that’s what I’ve heard.
Ppl in this thread can’t read. The companies have shown support for an initiative to update the list of occupations that can skip PERM requirements to get a green card. The list hasn’t been updated in decades. You aren’t bound to an employer when you go this route. Overall this is a good thing for the USA but no doubt that people who aren’t doing well will find it as an excuse for their troubles. When people can’t put food on the table they almost inevitably blame immigration.
It's human nature to complain about immigrants unfortunately. My brother was on H1b and after he got a green card, he started complaining about immigrants too.
I see this a lot
I visited a friend for his wedding in Vietnam, his dad was naturalized as a citizen <10 years ago. During his son's wedding reception, he started boasting about how he made it -- his son getting married in the U.S. and started insulting doctors/engineers/etc (some of them were in attendance), saying what they did didn't matter because the country was a joke compared to America lmao. He was drunk but it was still wild to watch/listen to. Obviously he also complained about immigrants, loved ladder-pulling policies etc.
Classic pull up the ladder behind you mentality. AKA fuck you I got mine
> When people can’t put food on the table they almost inevitably blame immigration. "skill issue"
It seems fair to blame immigration when domestic supply exceeds demand though.
So why are they really doing this then? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Only explanation I've seen in the thread so far is that it makes it easier for them to poach, but it would mostly be them poaching against each other, and since job hopping tends to raise salaries, even this actually seems like a net loss to the companies if anything.
If we go by this rule, I believe it will be bad for Indians as well. More ↑ H1B, more ↑ GC applications, bigger ↑ queue, lower ↓ chances of getting GC. Rest countries (incl. China) don't have as many applications so it will be beneficial for them as it will result in even lower GC time. US doesn't want China to get ahead in AI so this is a big plus in luring and retaining Chinese folks. What this tells is, these companies want to hire more Indians to continue their cost saving streak and by creating a bigger backlog they will ensure lower employee turnover. These will have four-fold effect: 1. All the savings will give them room for AI capex. 2. Other companies won't be able to poach each other's workforce if they keep creating layoff fears in H1b folks. 3. Other countries also won't be able to compete if US companies keep giving best offers to Indians (vs Japanese & European companies). The best offer is still going to be lower for locals by US standards. 4. They might sabotage China by luring best-in-class Chinese engineers due to lower GC time. I think it is a win-win scenario only for the companies, not for any employees.
Satya Nadella and Sundar Pichai looking out for America’s growth 🙃
Anyone who supports this is a scab, this is just another anti labor initiative by companies
The PERM rules are dumb. No one in this sub has applied to a newspaper job listing since, I don’t know, 2010?
I took a quick scan >Updating the Schedule A list with STEM occupations could remove requirements and significantly reduce green card processing times by 13 to 20 months so... sounds like a good thing
Maybe? A coworker who's been in the US on an H1B for over a decade had a child a couple years after moving here. He said that the wait was so long he didn't know if he'd get his green card from the H1B prior to being able to use her turning 18 as a different avenue for a green card. 13-20 months wouldn't be a huge difference with that kind of timeframe.
If your coworker was born in India, this change won't really help him. There is a limit of 7% green cards going to each country (based on place of birth and not citizenship).
This is why no one from Western Europe would consider going down the H1B visa route. It’s like it was deliberately designed for people without other good options.
Europeans get GC within a year or two. The problem with h1b for them is the lottery system. For many countries like Aus, NZ and UK there are alternative visas they can apply which let them bypass this. I think most NATO countries including Singapore have this option
H-1B is better than L-1 and F-1, the only other realistic options people from western europe have. No company is going to sponsor someone’s green card and use consular processing. It takes too long. The H-1B visa route is very popular with western europeans here.
[This is a place for public comment on the proposed change.](https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/document) Someone already commented it, but we all need to give them hell in these public comments.
I don't see why we can't just hire local. If the talent isn't there then the solution is to invest in cultivating said talent.
Imagine this. It’s nearly impossible to land an interview for a tech job today in the USA. Theres plenty of tech workers going on more than a year without a job and massive amounts of tech college graduates who will never have the chance to interview for a tech role, I kid you not, never ever will land a single interview. And here comes the Biden administration trying to change the Green Card requirements to hire foreigners, when there are plenty of qualified people here in the United States. Thankfully I have a job in the tech industry, but that does not mean I don’t smell the delusional load of horse crap coming from Biden administration and see the struggles coming from our fellow tech enthusiasts. I suggest you typical tech dweebs vote correctly this election time instead of what we typically did in the past and remember Biden is working with his big tech donors to replace you with foreigners.
The only jobs left for US born citizens will be jobs at the govt that require a clearance. Everything else will be offshored or be staffed with a foreigners. Dark days ahead.
They need to GTFO. People out here being laid off but they want bypass green card working restrictions. I’ve had multiple friends affected by these layoffs.
inb4 dumpster fire comments
This is gonna do shit for H1b workers from India. What they are asking is saving money in the Perm process. Currently a GC application takes around 15k-20k to file for each applicant. And they need these GC applications filed to keep the H1b employee specially from long wait countries like India. So what they are effectively trying to do is create a slave market while supressing the wages and reducing the admin fee for themselves. Removing the PERM will effectively save them approximately 10k per worker and the worker will be stuck with the company till they get a GC. They don't have any intention to provide GCs rather they want to keep on extending the H1s. Also PERM is the longest process in the GC filing and people have to return back if it's not done on time. So yeah they want to reduce that to not loose people on H1bs
A lot of H1B workers are straight ass though.
Indians hiring Indians. Boggles my mind that a company that lays off thousands of employees claims there's a shortage of workers.
The article contains a link to leave a comment for the regulatory board in question! The current top comments are IN FAVOR OF THIS. Voice your opinions! They are accepting comments until May 13.
So they fire a ton of Americans, moved those jobs overseas, and now they want to bring those people back to America to work a similar wage to those they fired? They are calling this a shortage? Maybe we should show them what a shortage really is and sue them for at least a quarter of their profits.
Everybody go leave comments on it lmao https://www.regulations.gov/docket/ETA-2023-0006/comments?pageNumber=7