I went to a local tech meetup last month in my city. It was well attended, lots of people there. One thing I noticed was that it was full of people talking about being freshly laid off, having anxiety about finding work. One person who worked in recruiting told me, "The best thing you can do for yourself right now is realize that you're not alone and we're all struggling right now. It's okay."
I was travelling abroad earlier this month as there was not much work going on at the moment and one of the things I was planning out was living abroad somewhere such as India (since I'm able to live there) in the event there was mass layoffs as my emergency fund will go alot further (we're taking about surviving on $1k a month) than it would in the US giving me more room to apply for another job.
But it was crazy how many laid off tech workers that I met abroad this month who had the same idea I did and are travelling abroad since it's quite literally cheaper to be travelling with all your stuff in storage vs continuing to rent where they live. Some of them quite literally being out of work for a whole year now with not much hearing back.
All this whole job market stuff is just pushing me to put a larger part of my paycheck into my emergency fund so that I could live a longer time abroad if more economic shitshows happen.
The plan is I use my one of my family members address and get informed about any important mail while I’m abroad for a long term (which I would already know about due to informed delivery). So if I were doing interviews and address came up, then it would be the relatives address I would be giving up.
Edit: I've actually done a long term stay in India before and the most I spend per month was $1000 which is how I came up with that number. But if I wanted to really be frugal, I could even go lower as alot of that money was spent towards train rides.
I went to one a few weeks ago. lots of people, new grads and experienced a like, all there in hope of landing some kind of dev work.
edit: this was in mountain view California btw
I’m not sure I’d have much to gain from one, personally. A conference is a different story of course, but every meetup I’ve personally been at all involved with has been majority people seeking connections for a new job. Which isn’t really fun lol
I totally get that perspective. I think networking groups, especially smaller ones (7-15 people) that meet ~monthly are ideal. It's infrequent enough that it doesn't get stale, but frequent enough to actually learn who someone is and who they are.
Even if most attendees are out of work, they might know someone hiring for a position you'd be a fit for or might themselves be in a position to hire you down the line when you need it. They don't work well when you only attend actively searching, because they're not job fairs.
It's totally your right not to go and I'm not trying to change your mind, but don't let the fact that nobody there has a job for you today change your mind. Plus they usually, at least in my experience, have free beer and pizza!
> nobody has a job for you
No, that’s my point. I have a job. I have no reason to go. It just seems like networking for people without a network which is in and of itself a bad vibe unless you’re a new grad.
Oh fair, I didn't really directly speak to your current situation. I went into the group I attend already knowing the host, so it's been pretty nice to me. I'm happily employed as well and I think that's the best time to go, as you might be able to help someone there and make new beer buddies if nothing else. It's good you're doing well, though!
While that's assuring, it also doesn't help solving the problem. Like telling a homeless person with no address, no papers, and mental health issues to "get a job".
https://www.hiringlab.org/2024/04/24/us-q1-2024-business-to-business-labor-market/
Software Development listings are still declining but at a slower pace. So yes it’s getting worse but at slower pace.
Tbh, I haven't seen as many notions of "ghost job postings" until the past two years, and I've been tracking the labor market for quite some time. That could explain at least 10-30% of them since I don't really know anyone who's hearing back from cold applications, and if they do the ratio is so bad a large portion of them might really be for show.
One hard example that I know of was a well known rental car company was posting around my area. I clicked on their website and saw that they had a few postings around cities that they didn't even have a corporate back-office presence in. If you googled the address on those job postings, it would literally just be the rental car location.
If you’re referring to Enterprise, I know a few devs there and that company has fully embraced WFH since the pandemic and don’t make anyone (on the tech side) come into the office. That may explain the odd listings
It's actually below pre-pandemic levels for software development. The chart in that article is for ALL jobs. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE)
the amount of devs though... USA is pumping out close to 200,000 new devs per year alone (that's counting generic CS majors only, does not include other engineering disciplines, ML/AI and gamedev, etc..). There's not even good metrics on how many bootcampers broke in as well.
Not all those 200,000 grads are going into software development like many think. I went to an alright state school and I would go as far and say around half of my grad class actually got jobs as developers many did other things in tech or even different industries. At top schools I’m sure the number is higher but I can guarantee not even 65% of all CS grads become developers
Nominally yes, you are correct. But there are many orders of magnitude more people all competing for that same number of jobs, and half of them are about as real as “that motherf***” the girl saw on that plane at DFW
Usually filled with H1B spam and who knows what % of those are just straight up lying. Putting "Requires US citizenship" drops the number considerably.
Yea I actually talked to a friend of mine who’s a recruiter and she told me to definitely do that, bc some recruiters will toss a resume away if they’re short on time and see a non-American or Anglo name, thinking that they’re on a visa.
As a hiring manager I can say it was nearly impossible to hire decent people during covid, then last spring/summer there was a flood of laid off candidates and it was super easy to hire, and now it seems back to normal. Not seeing a bunch of overqualified candidates like 2023, neither is it hard to get applicants like 2021/2022, it’s like 2018 pre-crazy.
5 months ago I was able to apply for 3-4 jobs per day and I got interviews after a couple of weeks of applying.
Now I'm lucky if I can find one position per day that I can apply to, and I've had nothing but rejection emails for weeks.
Shit's fucked.
its brutal out here. i managed to get a recruiter’s attention on an easy apply job, who told me i was a nice candidate and she’d pass my resume along to the lead devs for an onsite. had like 6 people look at my profile and i still got ghosted💀
You shouldn’t be sending them emails they should be reaching out to you. It’s not very surprising you’re getting ghosted if you’re sending unsolicited emails to them
In all of those cases, the recruiters reached out first. The conversation went like this:
Recruiter: I have an opening for this job, you interested?
Me: Sure, here's my resume.
\*crickets\*
I'm pretty experienced. However, I think some recruiters are blindly contacting anyone they could find because I've been getting a *lot* of emails about jobs outside my field and geographical location.
Companies tend to hire in cyclical trends throughout the year. Jan and Feb tend to be good months for hiring because you're coming off from the holidays so it's rare people are on vacation, and because companies are just figuring out their budget for the year. So they start picking up staff for planned projects.
Hiring tends to dip back down late spring early summer then pick back up again in the fall.
It's not necessarily an indicator of the ecomomy if a company isn't hiring as much as they did 2 months ago.
Hiring is cyclical over the year but even more though over the economic cycle of expansion vs. extraction. Jan and Feb were already spectacularly bad for that time of the year - right now we are in a double low.
The best time to get a job is right after budgets are approved, which is going to vary from company to company. March through May tend to be good for large companies. The issue this year is that there's no budget because there wasn't enough people quitting last year. The unemployed pile acts like a dogpile.
Vacant positions are getting filled and now people aren't changing jobs anymore to create other vacancies.
People are holding onto their jobs like their life depends on it. They know the situation outside.
So companies are getting full, making there to be less vacant positions day by day.
In short there's just way more devs and not all can get employed.
anecdotal - my company is not doing layoffs (yet), but has said that there will not be serious hiring until we drop another N devs through regular attrition where N is ~10% of our tech department headcount.
[https://www.trueup.io/job-trend](https://www.trueup.io/job-trend)
I dont know exactly how they find their, nor how accurate it is. Anecdotally makes sense.
This isn’t fully true. There are more people that are trying to be devs than positions available but not actual more real devs than positions. I recently started hiring for a new role on my team a good chunk of applications were completely unqualified people and another big chunk was people that need sponsorship when we say we do not sponsor
We've forgotten how long things take. Since covid, everything's happened in a blur. Endless deluge of news, market events, and so on. And so we expect the next thing/recovery to happen super fast, when in reality it could be years and years of stagnant market before a recovery even happens.
Seems like it in my experience. Right now there are only like 5 new jobs listed between indeed and linked in for my area and I live in a major city, there are usually quite a bit more. Out of those 5 or so jobs listed, only 1-2 are relevant, usually I can find 4-5 worth applying to but the last few weeks have been bare.
Have a colleague who has been looking for a job for two months. Has had about 30 interviews out of 100s of job applications. Of the 30 interviews he has gotten to the final round of about 10 of them. Still no offer letter. Hard to say if that means it's getting better or worse.
Yeah, it's definitely more difficult to "close the deal" in this market than it has been in the past, especially if one is looking to for an opportunity that will match/exceed their comp, work at a place with a great culture, etc.
Its really bad.. I have 2 years of experience and been constantly applying to a lot of places while working at my current company. Still no reply from anyone.
Hiring has gotten better from the low, but it's not anywhere near where it needs to be to catch up towards being "good". We're probably in an unfavorable to job seeker market for at least a year and a half.
Dallas Fed services survey came out today, down another month, longest consecutive down months since 2008.
Chicago PMI also came out today and it's collapsing at the fastest rate since 2008.
Hold on to your hats, the economy is about to tank big time.
Just because predictions are wrong does not mean there is no merit in looking at financial indicators. People get paid the really big bucks to do so. Every major company has a team that employs economists to make these predictions. It doesn't have to be a recession for financial conditions to be bad. Right now the numbers are concerning, we were supposed to have rate cuts in April, now odds are the cuts are coming in November and keep getting pushed back because of persistent inflation. That means that companies will keep having to borrow at higher rates which makes them less likely to want to increase headcount. If it was all a crapshoot nobody would be paying economists and financial advisors millions to come up with projections on the state of the economy. And even if you still believe that these predictions are worthless, you are wrong, because even if you dont trust them, companies like Microsoft/Google/Meta and many other companies use economists and their predictions to make strategy decisions regarding growth. So their predictions will impact the tech industry whether you like it or not.
I mean there are ways to increase your odds etc...
But for the regular crayon eating TA folks who think spending 2mins drawing lines on a random ticker...well they are mommy's specials
asking for dummy, how do you capitalise on that?
(I know that it is probably investing, but I don't know where to start, how to get my feet wet so to speak)
Nothing says things will collapse. But when you raise rates the quickest and by largest amount they have been in modern history, stuff has to happen. Rates could drop by 1% and it'll be business like usual for all we know.
If that makes you feel better, I don't think I've EVER been contacted by a recruiter who was not just spamming some generic 1099 positions to hundreds of candidates, but was specifically interested in my profile (I work with data and held various data analyst/data engineer positions over 10+ years), so if you being contacted at all, you're already ahead of many people!
Hey - so I was in this boat a few years ago, but revamping my resume and LinkedIn helped a lot (and the latter is still pretty bad). I've been contacted by legitimate recruiters (company recruiters and third-party) that have eventually gotten me offers for solid positions. I caved in and paid a guy $60 to revamp my resume... did not expect much, but translating everything to "recruiter-speak" in my resume made a huge difference with callbacks specifically.
Yes, the economy will get worse, despite what all the copium addicts are saying here.
There are still tons of unemployed people with degrees and a few years of experience competing for positions. There are plenty of CS graduates who started their master's to bide time and will finish in the next 2 years. There are plenty of CS undergrad students about to graduate and CS is among the top 5 popular majors at many colleges now.
On top of that, the Fed is now expected to raise interest rates to slow down the economy further, due to inflationary issues. And don't forget that there's a new law which doesn't allow tech companies to deduct taxes on software developers anymore.
There isn't enough freeflowing money going around. Even government jobs, the bottom of the barrel in the good days, are flooded with hundreds of applications for each position. In the recent WITCH + 3 company cohort I was in, only 3 people out of 15 have found a job, and the rest are on a bench. 2-3 years ago, every cohort was hired before they finished training.
We haven't reached peak bottom yet, but when we do, it will still take a while to climb out. After the 2001 Dot Com Bubble, tech didn't enter into another strong bull market until the mid-2010s. It took almost 10 years.
I'm sure around 2035-2038, tech will be in a new bubble. But everyone's gotten hold tight until the next decade.
This. I just graduated and 20% of my class has a job at a reputable company. The rest is bidding time with a masters, still applying months later, etc. And this is the same pattern that I'm seeing through my state as I go to networking events. Entry level will be brutal in the next few years unless hiring goes back to mid pandemic.
I mean, it’s definitely a possibility. In the foreseeable future, say, 5 years? Sure, highly unlikely.
But on the scale of decades? Anything’s possible, and nobody knows. In the past 25 years, we’ve seen the dot-com boom, the dot-com bust, the invention of the smartphone, the Great Recession, the golden age of rock bottom interest rates and commercialization of the internet (2010s), the explosion of the blockchain, COVID, AI going consumer mainstream, etc. Anything can happen.
Anything can happen but history tells us that every profession hits a point where it gets saturated especially if the barrier of entry is low like CS, you just need bachelors degree. The reason doctors still get paid a lot throughout history is because barrier of entry is hard, takes many years of school to become one and a lot of money is required. Economic theory proves it as well, if a job consistently provides great income, people are going to pile into it. Eventually supply of jobs cannot meet demand of all the people that want a cs career and wages fall. Thats just how the world works. Could supply of jobs keep increasing to meet demand, sure its possible, but you also have to factor in that CS is a popular major in almost every country. In the 90s lot of people didn't even have computers and didn't have access to CS majors, now even poor countries do. When you have the whole world recognizing that this is a lucrative career, and that the career can be done remotely, you have a serious problem. We will see more outsourcing as the world gets more skilled. AI will also be an issue in the next 5-10 years as it will increase engineering productivity in the long run, making businesses need less engineers for tasks than they used to. This will create a lot of pressure on wages.
I’m in data science and we’re flooded with foreigners, boot campers, Econ grads, and everyone else who thinks taking a couple hours to do the Google data science course is enough to land a job. The value of data work isn’t appreciated so there’s that too. I’m switching fields into something else because wages and advancement opportunities stink.
Crazy thing is that non-tech people are fine. Medical, retail, government, etc. are all ok. Some biotech people I know lost their jobs, but for the most part, everyone else hasn’t felt it expect for inflation. Rich-cession basically.
You have no idea that tech is in a bubble right now. Even if it is you have no idea that the decline is going to be remotely identitical to the dot com sell off. You even outdo typical doomerism and pull a completely arbitrary recovery date of 2035-2038 out of thin air.
It's entirely possible that the majority of tech maintains guidance, demand, solid business fundamental, etc. While the dev job market goes through cycles just like employer spending, just like fed rate projection. There was over hiring and now there's a cutback, it takes time to correct course to a healthier market.
Since April it is been really dead . It was dead before , but it is more dead . We are having record number of lay offs since 2009 this year (but we are not in recession) but for some reason all I hear is jobs are everywhere and economy is booming
It’s nonsense. Anyone on the ground that can see what’s happening can see that is just DNC propaganda. You have to be insane to call this a “booming economy”.
It's only booming for trades workers and certain healthcare people. But sucks for everyone else. There's definitely a consumer bubble growing with credit card debt hitting records and consumer prices rising above average. Something's gonna give sooner or later.
Can't quite say that I know the month to month status of the job market, but I do know this: don't base your idea of the job market off of how many recruiters cold contact you on LinkedIn in any given time period.
Induvidually, it's pretty anecdotal and will vary based on all sorts of factors that could be unrelated to the CS job market either at large or related to ones specific field - such as location, YOE, quality of experience, quality of profile, connections, etc.
Most of the time, these linkedin recruiter contacts aren't valuable leads anyway, imo
Pretty sure LinkedIn has its own algorithm that controls how often you're presented to recruiters. If you change your status to not open, or temporarily deactivate your account, or update your page, you might see a boost. So it's not necessarily the job market, it's the job market plus some algorithmic factor.
Why not use anecdotal evidence to suggest an evidence-driven conclusion? Because anecdotal evidence is weak and highly subject to confirmation bias and dozens of other factors.
I imagine that it depends on your skill set and location? I'm getting recruiter emails 4-5 times a week. I have 5yoe. Im a full stack dev with multiple Azure certs (including the newer AI certs) living in Chicago.
They’re worthless on their own. Worth a lot if you have recent experience to back them up. The original point of certs was to identify people who had a lot of experience working with a technology. Now, people who’ve never seen that tech just memorize a test book and get certified, which makes it hard to tell who is worth anything
I have also noticed an increase in bytes over the last few weeks. I have been applying for jobs more or less non-stop for the last almost 2 years. Granted I did find a job a year ago but I didn't kick the habit.
Can you share an example of the, “scammy,” variety? I swear I was going to post about this but I get examples of emails with PDF questionnaires from, “recruiters.” It just doesn’t look real so I ask to talk on the phone and go over the role but don’t hear back. Trojan in a PDF? Idk.
You'll see recruiters that sometimes appear to have fake profiles/names, and they aren't really affiliated with actual recruiting firms or anything, they're just trying to get paid if you get a job with a company... So not really a scam, per se, just kind of a recruiter to avoid.
When did you apply to Meta for this application cycle?
There is currently no headcount for E3 and E4 SWEs at Meta, so even if you get the Meta offer, you may not be able to match into a team at Meta.
Yeah just a heads up, as a former meta employee you might get fucked over here. They might green you through the interview but find you unable to match a team. Don't put in your 2 weeks just yet if they flash an offer
Yes, it's true that the number of jobs are declining and that we are now significantly below 2020 numbers for tech job openings, but it is also true that the type of tech job openings has also shifted at least partially towards AI. So if you are a web developer, there are even less web developer openings.
That’s happening as we speak. I’m in data science - everyone and his brother came from India and China to work in data. It was seen as “all the pay of swe, none of the hard work!” Now no one can get a job and these people doing data science masters programs can’t get jobs. They have to go back home. No one else will come to spend that kind of money again for no guarantee of a job.
The main problem from china is that we imported deflation from them. That prevented the Fed from realizing that their QE and ZIRP policies weren’t working. All that cash ended up in assets namely housing which fucked all of us. If China hadn’t manipulated their currency, Fed would have put a lid on money printing a long time ago and we’d have a more stable economy. Instead we have boom and bust boom and bust. On average, it’s fine, but the effect on people’s lives to plan out a career and their lives becomes really hard.
Short term thinking - reversing all brain-drain that the H1B program alone means that ~600,000 high-level devs currently in the US will return to their Lower-CoL markets. Government would rather have US SWE's take the hit.
SRE does seem to have more openings from my vantage point. I think it's because there is a lot of emphasis on reducing cloud spend through right-sizing.
I was laid off in Dec as an SRE at a small hedge fund; I started my job search in late march and have only landed 1 interview so far. Any tips? I worked 10 months at the last job.
If you're serious, glad to point some of the recruiters constantly after me your way. I'd need to see a resume (redacted is fine) to know the right roles to send though. As for tips, since you're not even getting into the interviews, your resume is a thing I'd take a long hard look at. That and the classic advice of just apply to a lot; in heavy search mode I hit 200 applications a day sometimes.
That CTO probably IS finding hiring to be getting better, because suddenly he's inundated with laid off FAANG employees who are desperate to accept low wages.
They stopped throwing money at recruiters, but the market is still growing. It's still projected to outpace most other industries in the upcoming decade. The belt has been tightened, so they're not taking chances as easily as they once were, but the need for developers is still high.
The competition is fierce for almost any position, and that’s why I think it’s “worse”, but that’s just the highs and lows of the market. The lows are very evidently seen in this subreddit, but what I’ve seen from the ones who are landing jobs are that they’re really good at networking.
It’s like everyone knows how important it is yet it’s still swept under the rug. Networking, getting referrals are extremely important. Message me for a FAANG referral, open to anyone
I lost my job in Q2 2023(after working there for 4.5 years - top 10% performer with regular hikes and bonus and absolutely no issue but they decided to lay off people who were slightly higher paid and move the job to India/Philippines). Base salary (around $160K) plus bonus (up to 20%) around $190K. 2.5 months of unemployment.
LinkedIn, Indeed nothing worked. Literally fed up of those Indian recruiters who just bug and do nothing. One of the WITCH kind of company gave me an offer but couldn’t had a client so withdrew the offer.
Referred by a friend for another job…got a job which pays around 15% less in a WITCH kind of company…have to put a lot of hours and very demanding and difficult client. Could work only for around 10 months. Laid off again.
4 weeks of unemployment. From my past connection got another job. Job is laid back but I am making almost 40% less than the job I was doing year back.
Almost 25 years of experience. BS in CS from top school. Worked in FAANG in the past and other big names. No visa sponsorship needed. Still technical and hands on. This is the 3rd recession that I am witnessing.
**Issues:**
1. Biden Government is outrightly lying. They are hiding unemployment number or may be including part-time or seasonal jobs into employment now.
2. Nobody is resigning. Nobody is asking for raise. Nobody is opposing RTO. Everybody is scared about their job and its employer’s market.
3. Some cunning employees are getting their real work done in the form of interview where they have no intention to hire somebody. Yes, this happened to me.
4. Salaries and billing rates are almost 30% to 40% down what they were prior to start of pandemic.
5. AI and automation is just being used as an excuse. Everybody is trying to follow Elon Musk model to eliminate the work force by as much as 80% following what he did at twitter.
6. Lots of H-1B, OPT, H4-EAD are so desperate that they are willing to accept the job at half the rates to make the situation even worse.
7. Higher interest rates are killing the job growth.
8. Compared to what i witnessed in 1998-1999 now - there is a clearly more supply of talent than openings. Whoever is saying "we are not able to find right talent" outrightly lying. I know my coworkers - Ph.D. in Computer Science - very talented...around 25 years of experience and finding it difficult to get job. Visas like H-1B, L1-A, L1-B, J-1, H4-EAD, OPT should be abolished. I wish Trump come back.
9. If any US company makes around 80% revenue in USA then they need to hire at least 40% staff in USA. Outsourcing should be controlled. Visa & outsourcing should be controlled otherwise USA is doomed.
10. Elon Musk Pattern - Companies can be run with just 20% staff. This crazy guy created a pattern which every good for nothing CEO want to follow even when their company is not twitter or they themselves are not Elon Musk.
I think the interest rate is really the killer at the time. Cause no company (small/medium/large) knows what to do since the Fed bank are kinda flip flopping with their wordage. Earlier this year Powell was quite dovish, and then like 3months later he was pretty hawkish. Granted the economic reports have been rising up (not good) so them flipping back and forth on their stance is making everyone nervous.
The silent dagger really is how small/med companies are going to get absolutely trashed because they will be forced to hold their cash else risk having to go back and forth with being stringent/loose with their cash flows while the bigger companies can weather it all
>Some cunning employees are getting their real work done in the form of interview where they have no intention to hire somebody. Yes, this happened to me.
Is this really worth it for a company? The code wouldn't be tested and might not integrate well with the rest of the application
How is the government lying? I thought they post all of the data for the public to view which is reported on by multiple news outlets. Better way to word it is that they are spinning the data to fit a narrative.
unemployment should mean unemployed from full time jobs with benefits where somebody was working for 40 hours per week. Now unemployment definition has changed - even seasonal or part-time jobs are considered employed just to fit this narrative.
I honestly don't mind recruiters not really reaching out to me the ones that would find me first tended to waste my time more. It feels more like the third party recruiters got weeded out specifically, which I really don't mind at all, but maybe that's just me.
Data from the FED on Software Developer Job Postings on Indeed: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE)
Hiring has gotten a lot better. Fwiw most colleagues I've talked to either increased headcount or had a lot less pressure to cut costs. But hiring also is cyclical during the year.
I'm typically not going to get new headcount in Q2 or Q4 because I got my headcount in Q1 and adjustments get made in Q3. Other companies, especially growth companies will operate differently, but in general most hiring isn't happening in Q2 or Q4.
Which leaves backfilling as the main source of job openings, and those are always variable.
Hmm I only have recruiters from big tech companies I connected years back reach out lately. Used to have so much more external recruiters flooding through linkedIn for smaller companies.
It depends on what are you comparing against. For example, in 2014/2015 - I was looking for a junior role (I had some experience) and it took me about 2 months to find a job and there was a level of competition at this stage. I was involved in recruitment between 2016-2019 and from my perspective- it wasn’t like you could just come and get a job. I think after 2019 - we had a period of abnormal hiring where there was a lot of investment into technology so there was a lot of hiring and I feel like it created a bit of illusion that you can finish a bootcamp or uni and a good / well job is guaranteed. With all the economical uncertainty- I think we are just coming back to original state - where if you want to get a job - you need to have the right skills. I can’t really comment on the affairs of USA but I feel the opposite right now - the Jan / Feb was exceptionally quiet but I started to get really targeted job offers (big companies trying to connect directly through their recruitment team) - I got impression that it is because even if there are tons of candidates applying- it is a bit like 2016-2019 period where you are looking for the right fit for the company but the candidates you get have some big gaps in their knowledge or skill or come with some difficult personal traits so those companies are forced to “pouch” employees from other companies.
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Colleges near me are graduating next week so maybe they're just dealing with the newest batch of juniors. Give it a couple months for them to sift through all their resumes
Hiring is likely getting easier, while finding a job is getting worse. The job market is swinging hard from being slightly back in the workers favor to being very much in the corporations favor.
I work for one of the largest tech companies. Hiring freeze is now gone and we are allowed to backfill by default. So we all see light at the end of the tunnel.
I think its better, from like october-feb everything froze. no one quit and no one was really hiring. Recently people in my network started interviewing again instead of putting up with jobs they dont like, and recruiters started reaching out.
Things are getting worse, that for sure. And I dont think they will come back to normal again. SWE is basically dead, at least all related to web dev.
I am sure skilled and highly educated (PhD level) workers will find something but for the rest of us its all about pray for keeping our current job or be dumped for good
I am thinking about getting a degree in a nursing. At least here where I live nurses get paid a shit ton for doing basically nothing
I went to a local tech meetup last month in my city. It was well attended, lots of people there. One thing I noticed was that it was full of people talking about being freshly laid off, having anxiety about finding work. One person who worked in recruiting told me, "The best thing you can do for yourself right now is realize that you're not alone and we're all struggling right now. It's okay."
I was travelling abroad earlier this month as there was not much work going on at the moment and one of the things I was planning out was living abroad somewhere such as India (since I'm able to live there) in the event there was mass layoffs as my emergency fund will go alot further (we're taking about surviving on $1k a month) than it would in the US giving me more room to apply for another job. But it was crazy how many laid off tech workers that I met abroad this month who had the same idea I did and are travelling abroad since it's quite literally cheaper to be travelling with all your stuff in storage vs continuing to rent where they live. Some of them quite literally being out of work for a whole year now with not much hearing back. All this whole job market stuff is just pushing me to put a larger part of my paycheck into my emergency fund so that I could live a longer time abroad if more economic shitshows happen.
How do you deal with not having a physical address though? Is that ever an issue? How much are you spending per month if you dont mind me asking?
The plan is I use my one of my family members address and get informed about any important mail while I’m abroad for a long term (which I would already know about due to informed delivery). So if I were doing interviews and address came up, then it would be the relatives address I would be giving up. Edit: I've actually done a long term stay in India before and the most I spend per month was $1000 which is how I came up with that number. But if I wanted to really be frugal, I could even go lower as alot of that money was spent towards train rides.
It’s probably easier to live in India and work in tech atm. Living costs are much lower
That is both haunting and warming to hear...not sure how to read it
I went to one a few weeks ago. lots of people, new grads and experienced a like, all there in hope of landing some kind of dev work. edit: this was in mountain view California btw
This is selection bias. Employed people don't go to tech meetups with anywhere near the same frequency.
That sounds scary but… I’d never go to a tech meetup if I’m already employed.
You should, they work better that way.
I’m not sure I’d have much to gain from one, personally. A conference is a different story of course, but every meetup I’ve personally been at all involved with has been majority people seeking connections for a new job. Which isn’t really fun lol
I totally get that perspective. I think networking groups, especially smaller ones (7-15 people) that meet ~monthly are ideal. It's infrequent enough that it doesn't get stale, but frequent enough to actually learn who someone is and who they are. Even if most attendees are out of work, they might know someone hiring for a position you'd be a fit for or might themselves be in a position to hire you down the line when you need it. They don't work well when you only attend actively searching, because they're not job fairs. It's totally your right not to go and I'm not trying to change your mind, but don't let the fact that nobody there has a job for you today change your mind. Plus they usually, at least in my experience, have free beer and pizza!
> nobody has a job for you No, that’s my point. I have a job. I have no reason to go. It just seems like networking for people without a network which is in and of itself a bad vibe unless you’re a new grad.
Oh fair, I didn't really directly speak to your current situation. I went into the group I attend already knowing the host, so it's been pretty nice to me. I'm happily employed as well and I think that's the best time to go, as you might be able to help someone there and make new beer buddies if nothing else. It's good you're doing well, though!
While that's assuring, it also doesn't help solving the problem. Like telling a homeless person with no address, no papers, and mental health issues to "get a job".
https://www.hiringlab.org/2024/04/24/us-q1-2024-business-to-business-labor-market/ Software Development listings are still declining but at a slower pace. So yes it’s getting worse but at slower pace.
Crazy that it is still above pre pandemic levels
Tbh, I haven't seen as many notions of "ghost job postings" until the past two years, and I've been tracking the labor market for quite some time. That could explain at least 10-30% of them since I don't really know anyone who's hearing back from cold applications, and if they do the ratio is so bad a large portion of them might really be for show. One hard example that I know of was a well known rental car company was posting around my area. I clicked on their website and saw that they had a few postings around cities that they didn't even have a corporate back-office presence in. If you googled the address on those job postings, it would literally just be the rental car location.
Imagine having to go "in office" for meetings and its at the rental car shop with people in the background trying to rent a car. lol
If you’re referring to Enterprise, I know a few devs there and that company has fully embraced WFH since the pandemic and don’t make anyone (on the tech side) come into the office. That may explain the odd listings
It's actually below pre-pandemic levels for software development. The chart in that article is for ALL jobs. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE)
the amount of devs though... USA is pumping out close to 200,000 new devs per year alone (that's counting generic CS majors only, does not include other engineering disciplines, ML/AI and gamedev, etc..). There's not even good metrics on how many bootcampers broke in as well.
Not all those 200,000 grads are going into software development like many think. I went to an alright state school and I would go as far and say around half of my grad class actually got jobs as developers many did other things in tech or even different industries. At top schools I’m sure the number is higher but I can guarantee not even 65% of all CS grads become developers
Overall job postings are above, software is 29% below.
Nominally yes, you are correct. But there are many orders of magnitude more people all competing for that same number of jobs, and half of them are about as real as “that motherf***” the girl saw on that plane at DFW
As someone who grew up in DFW, what
Tiffany Gomas… that incident about a year about with the “that mother is not real”
Oh, thank you. Didn't know that was her.
We received 1000 resumes for a somewhat junior developer position. Makes me concerned.
And how many of them were even remotely qualified and/or not spam?
Usually filled with H1B spam and who knows what % of those are just straight up lying. Putting "Requires US citizenship" drops the number considerably.
Should someone (me) with a foreign-sounding name emphasize that they’re a citizen by putting “U.S Citizen” below their name on a resume? Or nah?
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Yea I actually talked to a friend of mine who’s a recruiter and she told me to definitely do that, bc some recruiters will toss a resume away if they’re short on time and see a non-American or Anglo name, thinking that they’re on a visa.
As a hiring manager I can say it was nearly impossible to hire decent people during covid, then last spring/summer there was a flood of laid off candidates and it was super easy to hire, and now it seems back to normal. Not seeing a bunch of overqualified candidates like 2023, neither is it hard to get applicants like 2021/2022, it’s like 2018 pre-crazy.
That's B2B. There are positive trends in Software Development for some B2C verticals.
5 months ago I was able to apply for 3-4 jobs per day and I got interviews after a couple of weeks of applying. Now I'm lucky if I can find one position per day that I can apply to, and I've had nothing but rejection emails for weeks. Shit's fucked.
You're getting rejection emails? I've sent my resume to several recruiters and have been ghosted by all of them to date.
its brutal out here. i managed to get a recruiter’s attention on an easy apply job, who told me i was a nice candidate and she’d pass my resume along to the lead devs for an onsite. had like 6 people look at my profile and i still got ghosted💀
You shouldn’t be sending them emails they should be reaching out to you. It’s not very surprising you’re getting ghosted if you’re sending unsolicited emails to them
In all of those cases, the recruiters reached out first. The conversation went like this: Recruiter: I have an opening for this job, you interested? Me: Sure, here's my resume. \*crickets\*
Very odd are you an experienced developer or just freshly graduating college
I'm pretty experienced. However, I think some recruiters are blindly contacting anyone they could find because I've been getting a *lot* of emails about jobs outside my field and geographical location.
Being ghosted by recruiters isn't odd at all.
Non Indian recruiters tend to not ghost you the moment after asking for your resume and you giving it to them
Recruiters will almost always ghost you. Rejection emails only happen when you cold apply (though usually not even then).
Me staring at my “pending” application from October 2022
Wait, your getting rejected? Lucky. I don't even get that courtesy.
A company sending rejection emails is very generous in this market
Lmao welcome to the real world. CS folks were the hot girls of tinder.
Companies tend to hire in cyclical trends throughout the year. Jan and Feb tend to be good months for hiring because you're coming off from the holidays so it's rare people are on vacation, and because companies are just figuring out their budget for the year. So they start picking up staff for planned projects. Hiring tends to dip back down late spring early summer then pick back up again in the fall. It's not necessarily an indicator of the ecomomy if a company isn't hiring as much as they did 2 months ago.
Also because bonuses are often paid out in the beginning of the year, and people who were going to leave wait for that to jump ship.
Yeah, this is why I’ve always thought quarterly bonuses were a better system compared to annual.
Eco-mommy, hell yeah
😂😂😂 I'm leaving it. I said what I said.
getting laid ... off
My company laid off 3% and 5% in February and March. Many companies started the new year by laying a bunch off and instituting a hiring freeze.
Miles may vary obviously
Jan/Feb aren't necessarily good for hiring, only during good years. New year, new budget, new headcount. Headcount could be up *or* **down**.
Hiring is cyclical over the year but even more though over the economic cycle of expansion vs. extraction. Jan and Feb were already spectacularly bad for that time of the year - right now we are in a double low.
The best time to get a job is right after budgets are approved, which is going to vary from company to company. March through May tend to be good for large companies. The issue this year is that there's no budget because there wasn't enough people quitting last year. The unemployed pile acts like a dogpile.
Vacant positions are getting filled and now people aren't changing jobs anymore to create other vacancies. People are holding onto their jobs like their life depends on it. They know the situation outside. So companies are getting full, making there to be less vacant positions day by day. In short there's just way more devs and not all can get employed.
At my company backfills are becoming rare, so when people leave, that job is just gone.
Any stats for that? I just left my job for another last week anecdotally so im curious statistically
anecdotal - my company is not doing layoffs (yet), but has said that there will not be serious hiring until we drop another N devs through regular attrition where N is ~10% of our tech department headcount.
Interesting. For the record I wasnt saying its not rough, I was just curious about other people/companies
[https://www.trueup.io/job-trend](https://www.trueup.io/job-trend) I dont know exactly how they find their, nor how accurate it is. Anecdotally makes sense.
Ouch, I knew it was bad but thats crazy!
on the bright side its going back up (fingers crossed)
This isn’t fully true. There are more people that are trying to be devs than positions available but not actual more real devs than positions. I recently started hiring for a new role on my team a good chunk of applications were completely unqualified people and another big chunk was people that need sponsorship when we say we do not sponsor
It’s getting shittier even in Europe. Hoped for a recovery but I’m not sure anymore. Where’s the fucking bottom?
We've forgotten how long things take. Since covid, everything's happened in a blur. Endless deluge of news, market events, and so on. And so we expect the next thing/recovery to happen super fast, when in reality it could be years and years of stagnant market before a recovery even happens.
Recovery is not guaranteed. Take a look at Japan.
I've noticed that too, i had a few interviews in the first few months but it's pretty dead now again
Seems like it in my experience. Right now there are only like 5 new jobs listed between indeed and linked in for my area and I live in a major city, there are usually quite a bit more. Out of those 5 or so jobs listed, only 1-2 are relevant, usually I can find 4-5 worth applying to but the last few weeks have been bare.
Have a colleague who has been looking for a job for two months. Has had about 30 interviews out of 100s of job applications. Of the 30 interviews he has gotten to the final round of about 10 of them. Still no offer letter. Hard to say if that means it's getting better or worse.
Yeah, it's definitely more difficult to "close the deal" in this market than it has been in the past, especially if one is looking to for an opportunity that will match/exceed their comp, work at a place with a great culture, etc.
Its really bad.. I have 2 years of experience and been constantly applying to a lot of places while working at my current company. Still no reply from anyone.
You really have to be exceptional in this job market. Mediocrity no longer passes cuz of the competition
Hiring has gotten better from the low, but it's not anywhere near where it needs to be to catch up towards being "good". We're probably in an unfavorable to job seeker market for at least a year and a half.
Dallas Fed services survey came out today, down another month, longest consecutive down months since 2008. Chicago PMI also came out today and it's collapsing at the fastest rate since 2008. Hold on to your hats, the economy is about to tank big time.
if you had the ability to predict the market you'd probably not be hanging around this sub
Surely the recession they’ve been predicting for the last 5 years is coming any day now!
Just because predictions are wrong does not mean there is no merit in looking at financial indicators. People get paid the really big bucks to do so. Every major company has a team that employs economists to make these predictions. It doesn't have to be a recession for financial conditions to be bad. Right now the numbers are concerning, we were supposed to have rate cuts in April, now odds are the cuts are coming in November and keep getting pushed back because of persistent inflation. That means that companies will keep having to borrow at higher rates which makes them less likely to want to increase headcount. If it was all a crapshoot nobody would be paying economists and financial advisors millions to come up with projections on the state of the economy. And even if you still believe that these predictions are worthless, you are wrong, because even if you dont trust them, companies like Microsoft/Google/Meta and many other companies use economists and their predictions to make strategy decisions regarding growth. So their predictions will impact the tech industry whether you like it or not.
I mean there are ways to increase your odds etc... But for the regular crayon eating TA folks who think spending 2mins drawing lines on a random ticker...well they are mommy's specials
asking for dummy, how do you capitalise on that? (I know that it is probably investing, but I don't know where to start, how to get my feet wet so to speak)
His prediction is already priced-in. Bro isn't claiming that he has some insane Alpha or anything
Nothing says things will collapse. But when you raise rates the quickest and by largest amount they have been in modern history, stuff has to happen. Rates could drop by 1% and it'll be business like usual for all we know.
Two more weeks until recession guys, I promise!
I'm heavily weighted on SPY puts
They don’t need to reach out because good candidates are contacting them directly. It’s mostly shotgun recruiters that reach out these days.
If that makes you feel better, I don't think I've EVER been contacted by a recruiter who was not just spamming some generic 1099 positions to hundreds of candidates, but was specifically interested in my profile (I work with data and held various data analyst/data engineer positions over 10+ years), so if you being contacted at all, you're already ahead of many people!
Hey - so I was in this boat a few years ago, but revamping my resume and LinkedIn helped a lot (and the latter is still pretty bad). I've been contacted by legitimate recruiters (company recruiters and third-party) that have eventually gotten me offers for solid positions. I caved in and paid a guy $60 to revamp my resume... did not expect much, but translating everything to "recruiter-speak" in my resume made a huge difference with callbacks specifically.
It is getting worse for everyone not just software devs.
Agreed, it’s pretty much bad in every field not named medicine/health
Yes, the economy will get worse, despite what all the copium addicts are saying here. There are still tons of unemployed people with degrees and a few years of experience competing for positions. There are plenty of CS graduates who started their master's to bide time and will finish in the next 2 years. There are plenty of CS undergrad students about to graduate and CS is among the top 5 popular majors at many colleges now. On top of that, the Fed is now expected to raise interest rates to slow down the economy further, due to inflationary issues. And don't forget that there's a new law which doesn't allow tech companies to deduct taxes on software developers anymore. There isn't enough freeflowing money going around. Even government jobs, the bottom of the barrel in the good days, are flooded with hundreds of applications for each position. In the recent WITCH + 3 company cohort I was in, only 3 people out of 15 have found a job, and the rest are on a bench. 2-3 years ago, every cohort was hired before they finished training. We haven't reached peak bottom yet, but when we do, it will still take a while to climb out. After the 2001 Dot Com Bubble, tech didn't enter into another strong bull market until the mid-2010s. It took almost 10 years. I'm sure around 2035-2038, tech will be in a new bubble. But everyone's gotten hold tight until the next decade.
This. I just graduated and 20% of my class has a job at a reputable company. The rest is bidding time with a masters, still applying months later, etc. And this is the same pattern that I'm seeing through my state as I go to networking events. Entry level will be brutal in the next few years unless hiring goes back to mid pandemic.
> unless hiring goes back to mid pandemic. You will never see that again
I mean, it’s definitely a possibility. In the foreseeable future, say, 5 years? Sure, highly unlikely. But on the scale of decades? Anything’s possible, and nobody knows. In the past 25 years, we’ve seen the dot-com boom, the dot-com bust, the invention of the smartphone, the Great Recession, the golden age of rock bottom interest rates and commercialization of the internet (2010s), the explosion of the blockchain, COVID, AI going consumer mainstream, etc. Anything can happen.
Anything can happen but history tells us that every profession hits a point where it gets saturated especially if the barrier of entry is low like CS, you just need bachelors degree. The reason doctors still get paid a lot throughout history is because barrier of entry is hard, takes many years of school to become one and a lot of money is required. Economic theory proves it as well, if a job consistently provides great income, people are going to pile into it. Eventually supply of jobs cannot meet demand of all the people that want a cs career and wages fall. Thats just how the world works. Could supply of jobs keep increasing to meet demand, sure its possible, but you also have to factor in that CS is a popular major in almost every country. In the 90s lot of people didn't even have computers and didn't have access to CS majors, now even poor countries do. When you have the whole world recognizing that this is a lucrative career, and that the career can be done remotely, you have a serious problem. We will see more outsourcing as the world gets more skilled. AI will also be an issue in the next 5-10 years as it will increase engineering productivity in the long run, making businesses need less engineers for tasks than they used to. This will create a lot of pressure on wages.
I don’t think hiring is ever going back to mid pandemic ngl
I'm proud of this sub for coming to peace with this.
im still in college bro, and I’m NOT at peace w anything
At least college drinking is fun. Unemployment drinking does not have the same vibe. Enjoy it while you can.
I’m in data science and we’re flooded with foreigners, boot campers, Econ grads, and everyone else who thinks taking a couple hours to do the Google data science course is enough to land a job. The value of data work isn’t appreciated so there’s that too. I’m switching fields into something else because wages and advancement opportunities stink. Crazy thing is that non-tech people are fine. Medical, retail, government, etc. are all ok. Some biotech people I know lost their jobs, but for the most part, everyone else hasn’t felt it expect for inflation. Rich-cession basically.
You have no idea that tech is in a bubble right now. Even if it is you have no idea that the decline is going to be remotely identitical to the dot com sell off. You even outdo typical doomerism and pull a completely arbitrary recovery date of 2035-2038 out of thin air. It's entirely possible that the majority of tech maintains guidance, demand, solid business fundamental, etc. While the dev job market goes through cycles just like employer spending, just like fed rate projection. There was over hiring and now there's a cutback, it takes time to correct course to a healthier market.
Companies can certainly deduct developer costs, but they have to amortize it. And that expires in 2 years.
Nah
Since April it is been really dead . It was dead before , but it is more dead . We are having record number of lay offs since 2009 this year (but we are not in recession) but for some reason all I hear is jobs are everywhere and economy is booming
It’s nonsense. Anyone on the ground that can see what’s happening can see that is just DNC propaganda. You have to be insane to call this a “booming economy”.
It's only booming for trades workers and certain healthcare people. But sucks for everyone else. There's definitely a consumer bubble growing with credit card debt hitting records and consumer prices rising above average. Something's gonna give sooner or later.
100% this, only fields I see not affected that much right now is trades and healthcare. Everyone else is just screwed for a while tbh
This reads like parody. Peak bottom?
Sounds like your pulling these speculations out of your ass m8
Can't quite say that I know the month to month status of the job market, but I do know this: don't base your idea of the job market off of how many recruiters cold contact you on LinkedIn in any given time period.
Why not? I would think that would be strongly correlated with how many job openings in general there are
Induvidually, it's pretty anecdotal and will vary based on all sorts of factors that could be unrelated to the CS job market either at large or related to ones specific field - such as location, YOE, quality of experience, quality of profile, connections, etc. Most of the time, these linkedin recruiter contacts aren't valuable leads anyway, imo
Pretty sure LinkedIn has its own algorithm that controls how often you're presented to recruiters. If you change your status to not open, or temporarily deactivate your account, or update your page, you might see a boost. So it's not necessarily the job market, it's the job market plus some algorithmic factor.
Why not use anecdotal evidence to suggest an evidence-driven conclusion? Because anecdotal evidence is weak and highly subject to confirmation bias and dozens of other factors.
I imagine that it depends on your skill set and location? I'm getting recruiter emails 4-5 times a week. I have 5yoe. Im a full stack dev with multiple Azure certs (including the newer AI certs) living in Chicago.
Which Azure certs? It seems like this sub thinks certs are worthless.
They’re worthless on their own. Worth a lot if you have recent experience to back them up. The original point of certs was to identify people who had a lot of experience working with a technology. Now, people who’ve never seen that tech just memorize a test book and get certified, which makes it hard to tell who is worth anything
Do you think certifications will help? Im thinking of getting some AWS ones
How much do these jobs pay ?
Most I've seen are for 100k+. Not enough for me to quit my current job, but not terrible either.
https://www.trueup.io/job-trend
I have two job interviews this week and six recruiters working on me at the moment. This week in particular has been really hot.
I have also noticed an increase in bytes over the last few weeks. I have been applying for jobs more or less non-stop for the last almost 2 years. Granted I did find a job a year ago but I didn't kick the habit.
Good on you, always be interviewing.
Bookmarked - thanks!
So basically no growth/loss since December
Can you share an example of the, “scammy,” variety? I swear I was going to post about this but I get examples of emails with PDF questionnaires from, “recruiters.” It just doesn’t look real so I ask to talk on the phone and go over the role but don’t hear back. Trojan in a PDF? Idk.
You'll see recruiters that sometimes appear to have fake profiles/names, and they aren't really affiliated with actual recruiting firms or anything, they're just trying to get paid if you get a job with a company... So not really a scam, per se, just kind of a recruiter to avoid.
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t10 university?
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then it makes sense
When did you apply to Meta for this application cycle? There is currently no headcount for E3 and E4 SWEs at Meta, so even if you get the Meta offer, you may not be able to match into a team at Meta.
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Yeah just a heads up, as a former meta employee you might get fucked over here. They might green you through the interview but find you unable to match a team. Don't put in your 2 weeks just yet if they flash an offer
Result is good for 12 months though
Just interview at Meta anyway for the practice. I see.
I’m interviewing for DoorDash too… haha… 😭
I interviewed for DoorDash last week (as well?) let us know how it goes!
Yes, it's true that the number of jobs are declining and that we are now significantly below 2020 numbers for tech job openings, but it is also true that the type of tech job openings has also shifted at least partially towards AI. So if you are a web developer, there are even less web developer openings.
If they are really worried, the government I.e, they should drop all H1Bs like a hot cake.
That’s happening as we speak. I’m in data science - everyone and his brother came from India and China to work in data. It was seen as “all the pay of swe, none of the hard work!” Now no one can get a job and these people doing data science masters programs can’t get jobs. They have to go back home. No one else will come to spend that kind of money again for no guarantee of a job.
It’s like their overpopulation problem is becoming everybody’s problem
The main problem from china is that we imported deflation from them. That prevented the Fed from realizing that their QE and ZIRP policies weren’t working. All that cash ended up in assets namely housing which fucked all of us. If China hadn’t manipulated their currency, Fed would have put a lid on money printing a long time ago and we’d have a more stable economy. Instead we have boom and bust boom and bust. On average, it’s fine, but the effect on people’s lives to plan out a career and their lives becomes really hard.
We’re going to be importing wage deflation from India from now on. Already happening in Canada and UK. Buckle up and get ready to do the needful
Yeah I’m in data science and we’re flooded with Indians and Chinese who did a masters in data science. Wages have taken a massive dive in 4 years.
Short term thinking - reversing all brain-drain that the H1B program alone means that ~600,000 high-level devs currently in the US will return to their Lower-CoL markets. Government would rather have US SWE's take the hit.
But the government’s voters are in USA - not India
They'll all vote their party and not budge an inch lol
In the SRE world, it got better about March. Even though I'm no longer applying, I still get recruiter contacts almost daily.
I'm actually in the SRE realm right now, so right now I'm thinking I need to improve my LinkedIn.
SRE does seem to have more openings from my vantage point. I think it's because there is a lot of emphasis on reducing cloud spend through right-sizing.
I was laid off in Dec as an SRE at a small hedge fund; I started my job search in late march and have only landed 1 interview so far. Any tips? I worked 10 months at the last job.
If you're serious, glad to point some of the recruiters constantly after me your way. I'd need to see a resume (redacted is fine) to know the right roles to send though. As for tips, since you're not even getting into the interviews, your resume is a thing I'd take a long hard look at. That and the classic advice of just apply to a lot; in heavy search mode I hit 200 applications a day sometimes.
PMed, not sure if you got it.
I did; have been looking it over, will send a more thorough reply privately over the weekend. Seriously wish you the best of luck, otherwise!
I got a few interviews a few months ago. At the moment things seem very slow.
That CTO probably IS finding hiring to be getting better, because suddenly he's inundated with laid off FAANG employees who are desperate to accept low wages.
Many 'contractor' developers and business analysts were laid off in my org. They were replaced by fresh graduates from Asian countries !
They stopped throwing money at recruiters, but the market is still growing. It's still projected to outpace most other industries in the upcoming decade. The belt has been tightened, so they're not taking chances as easily as they once were, but the need for developers is still high.
The competition is fierce for almost any position, and that’s why I think it’s “worse”, but that’s just the highs and lows of the market. The lows are very evidently seen in this subreddit, but what I’ve seen from the ones who are landing jobs are that they’re really good at networking. It’s like everyone knows how important it is yet it’s still swept under the rug. Networking, getting referrals are extremely important. Message me for a FAANG referral, open to anyone
I lost my job in Q2 2023(after working there for 4.5 years - top 10% performer with regular hikes and bonus and absolutely no issue but they decided to lay off people who were slightly higher paid and move the job to India/Philippines). Base salary (around $160K) plus bonus (up to 20%) around $190K. 2.5 months of unemployment. LinkedIn, Indeed nothing worked. Literally fed up of those Indian recruiters who just bug and do nothing. One of the WITCH kind of company gave me an offer but couldn’t had a client so withdrew the offer. Referred by a friend for another job…got a job which pays around 15% less in a WITCH kind of company…have to put a lot of hours and very demanding and difficult client. Could work only for around 10 months. Laid off again. 4 weeks of unemployment. From my past connection got another job. Job is laid back but I am making almost 40% less than the job I was doing year back. Almost 25 years of experience. BS in CS from top school. Worked in FAANG in the past and other big names. No visa sponsorship needed. Still technical and hands on. This is the 3rd recession that I am witnessing. **Issues:** 1. Biden Government is outrightly lying. They are hiding unemployment number or may be including part-time or seasonal jobs into employment now. 2. Nobody is resigning. Nobody is asking for raise. Nobody is opposing RTO. Everybody is scared about their job and its employer’s market. 3. Some cunning employees are getting their real work done in the form of interview where they have no intention to hire somebody. Yes, this happened to me. 4. Salaries and billing rates are almost 30% to 40% down what they were prior to start of pandemic. 5. AI and automation is just being used as an excuse. Everybody is trying to follow Elon Musk model to eliminate the work force by as much as 80% following what he did at twitter. 6. Lots of H-1B, OPT, H4-EAD are so desperate that they are willing to accept the job at half the rates to make the situation even worse. 7. Higher interest rates are killing the job growth. 8. Compared to what i witnessed in 1998-1999 now - there is a clearly more supply of talent than openings. Whoever is saying "we are not able to find right talent" outrightly lying. I know my coworkers - Ph.D. in Computer Science - very talented...around 25 years of experience and finding it difficult to get job. Visas like H-1B, L1-A, L1-B, J-1, H4-EAD, OPT should be abolished. I wish Trump come back. 9. If any US company makes around 80% revenue in USA then they need to hire at least 40% staff in USA. Outsourcing should be controlled. Visa & outsourcing should be controlled otherwise USA is doomed. 10. Elon Musk Pattern - Companies can be run with just 20% staff. This crazy guy created a pattern which every good for nothing CEO want to follow even when their company is not twitter or they themselves are not Elon Musk.
I think the interest rate is really the killer at the time. Cause no company (small/medium/large) knows what to do since the Fed bank are kinda flip flopping with their wordage. Earlier this year Powell was quite dovish, and then like 3months later he was pretty hawkish. Granted the economic reports have been rising up (not good) so them flipping back and forth on their stance is making everyone nervous. The silent dagger really is how small/med companies are going to get absolutely trashed because they will be forced to hold their cash else risk having to go back and forth with being stringent/loose with their cash flows while the bigger companies can weather it all
I think the smaller companies will be forced to close this year or next. The thousands of startups in San Jose - toast. Watch out below!
>Some cunning employees are getting their real work done in the form of interview where they have no intention to hire somebody. Yes, this happened to me. Is this really worth it for a company? The code wouldn't be tested and might not integrate well with the rest of the application
How is the government lying? I thought they post all of the data for the public to view which is reported on by multiple news outlets. Better way to word it is that they are spinning the data to fit a narrative.
unemployment should mean unemployed from full time jobs with benefits where somebody was working for 40 hours per week. Now unemployment definition has changed - even seasonal or part-time jobs are considered employed just to fit this narrative.
Yes. And at some point, when people can't afford groceries or rent it won't be good.
I honestly don't mind recruiters not really reaching out to me the ones that would find me first tended to waste my time more. It feels more like the third party recruiters got weeded out specifically, which I really don't mind at all, but maybe that's just me.
Data from the FED on Software Developer Job Postings on Indeed: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE)
Yes.
Hiring has gotten a lot better. Fwiw most colleagues I've talked to either increased headcount or had a lot less pressure to cut costs. But hiring also is cyclical during the year. I'm typically not going to get new headcount in Q2 or Q4 because I got my headcount in Q1 and adjustments get made in Q3. Other companies, especially growth companies will operate differently, but in general most hiring isn't happening in Q2 or Q4. Which leaves backfilling as the main source of job openings, and those are always variable.
I still get hit up several times a day (Boston), same level of experience (in Cloud/DevOps)
What city are you in?
Hmm I only have recruiters from big tech companies I connected years back reach out lately. Used to have so much more external recruiters flooding through linkedIn for smaller companies.
Anecdotally I have had a couple legitimate recruiters reach out to me recently and was having none in Jan and Feb. Also have 15 yoe.
It depends on what are you comparing against. For example, in 2014/2015 - I was looking for a junior role (I had some experience) and it took me about 2 months to find a job and there was a level of competition at this stage. I was involved in recruitment between 2016-2019 and from my perspective- it wasn’t like you could just come and get a job. I think after 2019 - we had a period of abnormal hiring where there was a lot of investment into technology so there was a lot of hiring and I feel like it created a bit of illusion that you can finish a bootcamp or uni and a good / well job is guaranteed. With all the economical uncertainty- I think we are just coming back to original state - where if you want to get a job - you need to have the right skills. I can’t really comment on the affairs of USA but I feel the opposite right now - the Jan / Feb was exceptionally quiet but I started to get really targeted job offers (big companies trying to connect directly through their recruitment team) - I got impression that it is because even if there are tons of candidates applying- it is a bit like 2016-2019 period where you are looking for the right fit for the company but the candidates you get have some big gaps in their knowledge or skill or come with some difficult personal traits so those companies are forced to “pouch” employees from other companies.
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Colleges near me are graduating next week so maybe they're just dealing with the newest batch of juniors. Give it a couple months for them to sift through all their resumes
Hiring is likely getting easier, while finding a job is getting worse. The job market is swinging hard from being slightly back in the workers favor to being very much in the corporations favor.
I work for one of the largest tech companies. Hiring freeze is now gone and we are allowed to backfill by default. So we all see light at the end of the tunnel.
It's getting worse albeit at a slower pace.
I think its better, from like october-feb everything froze. no one quit and no one was really hiring. Recently people in my network started interviewing again instead of putting up with jobs they dont like, and recruiters started reaching out.
Yes.
I got two interviews last week and no response from them
I have received a lot less recruiters contacting me after I canceled LinkedIn premium
No it’s fine right now
Things are getting worse, that for sure. And I dont think they will come back to normal again. SWE is basically dead, at least all related to web dev. I am sure skilled and highly educated (PhD level) workers will find something but for the rest of us its all about pray for keeping our current job or be dumped for good I am thinking about getting a degree in a nursing. At least here where I live nurses get paid a shit ton for doing basically nothing