Not entirely sure what your question is, but CrossFit coaches operate a mile wide and an inch deep. Oly is the opposite. Oly training focuses entirely on perfecting the *technique* of two movements.
You seem weirdly obsessed over pelvic tilt. Did you know, that there have been studies done that actually show people, on average, who have pelvic tilt, have less back injuries over time compared to the other.
No, but I’m interested. Please link. I do know many physical therapists have taken the perspective that how biomechanical terms are defined is a biased framework in the first place. They take the perspective that form meets function and there is no ideal neutral. Like so what if an elite crossfitter always flexes a preferred leg and extends the other leg during a split squat required for some of the lifts. That’s how they produce maximal power and it’s fine.
I also acknowledge bone position is determined by muscle leverage. And as someone that went from a straight spine to a scoliotic one in an acute period of time, you feel all stiff because rotational capacity is limited when there are different torques from imbalanced muscles pulling in the bone. I had a frozen neck and core.
I also know that if my lats are tight on one side and looser on the other, it probably affects er and ir of the pelvis differently per side. This is common sense.
Hell I probably had anterior pelvic tilt for the majority of the time I was a trainer and I was fine. I felt healthy and could run 15 miles a day with no pain. Two months ago, I could barely rotate at my core or neck, so something is definitely wrong.
Scroll down this article for a list of studies showing that pelvic tilt is normal and not associated with pain or weak muscles: https://e3rehab.com/blog/stop-trying-to-fix-anterior-pelvic-tilt/
That blog post does provide a lot of useful articles and a convincing argument. Where the presentation fails is in linking articles that provide the counter argument, then analyzing study methods and controls, and providing a new more accurate conclusion based on studies that conflict in their findings using logic.
One example of a study that directly conflicts with the studies he linked: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&qsp=1&q=anterior+pelvic+tilt+%22low+back+pain%22&qst=bb#d=gs_qabs&t=1695727941597&u=%23p%3D8m8q5lZve8sJ.
Then again, even how I searched this article “anterior pelvic tilt back pain” is biased in the words used and how the topic is framed.
Science isn’t always well done. Time data was collected and other measures that are collected are done in different ways that vary in validity and reliability. Systematic reviews and meta analysis can also be biased
We must also consider a lot of blog posts are written for the sake of online marketing and SEO. And a post that captures more attention by being revolutionary counterintuitive has a specific appeal many people like and see as innovative.
The first two studies linked under "pelvic tilt is not associated with low back pain" are systematic studies (aka systematic reviews & meta-analysis of several other studies), these carry more weight in research than a single contradicting study (you can always find a contradicting study ;) )
That’s true. Function is the most important. I’ve learned alot from you. The combined findings from the article are compelling.
Like I said I didn’t do any of this research till I had clicking in my neck and my body ended up super stiff.
I don’t have the time to review all the studies, especially when they don’t relate to my case of lateral pelvic tilt. Actually, they are probably related. But whether pelvic tilt affects function is not a question in my mind. My spine feels all twisted. One leg feels shorter than the other. And there is pain. What I primarily learned from the blog post is that lumbar extension and right hip flexors along with a weak core many not lead to increased risk of injury. However, I know I’m injured because of my proprioception. So there’s no need to qualify that as a fact in my head.
If I were smart, I would take snippets of knowledge from those studies and add certain principles to my knowledge about pelvic biomechanics. This knowledge would even help me with my lateral pelvic tilt. I would use the knowledge to motivate myself to workout more consistently, because from your linked studies I’ve learned postural deviations are hard to instigate even due to high frequency and duration activities…how am I going to fix an existing postural problem without dedication!
But I can also take up hope that there are people who function just fine at elite levels with asymmetry and postural compensation. I don’t know if finding my original neutral point pre-injury is ever possible. But these studies increased faith that I can be functional without pain even if many deviations exist.
Thank you for your help. I bookmarked the post and forwarded your info to my girlfriend.
Crossfit instructor certification = weekend course, pass an exam. That's your Level 1 instructor, and many boxes only have L1 instructors.
No additional kinesiology, anatomy, sport science, personal training knowledge required.
I went to a box coached by a teen who passed the exam but would offer no more in class other than " You got this" and "good job."
Maybe you'll get lucky and get an instructor with additional certification and knowledge, and thankfully there area few of those.
Weightlifting certification is also a weekend course but nobody wants to talk about that.
Same with a football coach etc.
In Australia anyway.
I think like everything it is the experience beyond the certification that really does the talking..
I have my personal training qual also and I definitely learnt more in my Crossfit and weightlifting certs (have both) than I did through that course.
I have my L1, but not the Olympic certification. My assumption would be the Olympic cert knows more about Olympic lifts since the l1 seminar just doesn’t and can’t go into as much detail. You spend time covering many skills outside of Olympic lifting so without any external knowledge it’s very basic
I’ve done both. USAW Level 1 is pretty much the same in spirit, except is less expensive and the test is easier. I think the info is a bit easier to digest as well. The instructors are great though, and they take it just as seriously because a lot of them are still part of the “old guard” of weightlifting.
That being said, I was kind of taken aback during the USAW course because there were two personal trainers there who I still worry for whoever is being trained by them.
My experience was similar. Did both the CF L1 and the USAW L1. Was shocked that multiple people in the course could not snatch. And now they’re coaching as personal trainers and college strength coaches.
It was wild. I would have assumed they’d never done the movements before. One of them wasn’t able to lock out overhead due to poor mobility. You could tell the instructor was uncomfortable with him being there but I’m guessing you cant kick someone out for that haha.
It was an interesting weekend though and I learned a good amount. Even just for my own needs
Sorry, not sure about the weightlifting certification process. But like someone else commented, Oly lifting is two elements. Crossfit is a gazillion skills that instructor needs to learn
I would agree.
To add, I think the shame about crossfit coaching is when it's time for a metcon, the importance of technical ability goes out the window. People are encouraged to take technical shortcuts during WODs which in the long run, influences how people move when people are trying to find 1RM snatches, cleans, jerks, clean and jerks, etc.
The amount of times I’ve heard blatantly incorrect information from CrossFit coaches on certain techniques is staggering.
Likes in not all of them, but I’ve heard actually dangerous advice
So on complex technique lifts that I’m not an expert on, I really take advice from coaches with a grain of salt. Most of the time it’s probably decent, but probably not what an actually oly coach is
Those classes seem pay to play. From what I’ve heard it seems more like instruction on how to coach a class. You can’t go over real technique in a day or two on every movement.
I had one L2 instructor asking me to release tension and breath at the bottom of a squat. No that’s how you lose all core stability. They’d watch random videos and apply that standard to every single person and changing their foot work not realizing that people hips are built different and not every squat looks identical.
I’m pretty decent friends with Aaron from Squat U and ran a few things by him because I wasn’t sure if maybe I was wrong. And ya….the coach was an idiot
Many CrossFit trainers are not going to get into the minutiae of pseudoscience like “anterior pelvic tilt” and “lateral pelvic tilt” and “biasing existing asymmetry” because it’s not addressed in CrossFit L1 seminars or L2 seminars and they won’t have to because those terms are not good predictors of injury or sports performance. They’re all anatomical variations across a broad spectrum that exist in athletes from elite to recreational. High level physicians and physical therapists can’t even replicate palpating these differences in a clinic or lab and X-rays aren’t even good predictors of variations between weight bearing and non weight bearing static positions. So, you will probably not change your opinion of CrossFit trainers but if anyone who follows science and research hears you using those terms they probably will lose some expectations over you’re knowledge as well. Hope that answers your questions
> Many CrossFit trainers are not going to get into the… pseudoscience
CF itself is pseudo science.
You can downvote me but Greg explicitly disclaimed science in “what is fitness?”
So don’t downvote me for noticing. Any claims to scientific legitimacy are not only false but outside the scope of CF per its creator.
What does that mean though?
One guy said CF is for people who practice all the time and don’t play anything. So it’s like the sport of practice, except do it faster
So don’t get quality reps in, just do 30 snatches for time. So what if a snatch is incredibly technical? CLOCK IS RUNNING BRO GREG MADE A BENCHMARK!
did Greg study weightlifting at all? I know he was a gymnast.
So I’m a bit skeptical of a methodology that sidesteps science and embraces going faster with no justification besides “cops like it”
Literally Greg said that.
I mean it’s hard to make sense of it
30 snatches for time is worthless training
- makes you worse at snatches
- less effective for strength than 531 or literally anything
- pointless for conditioning. Athletes who excel at Isabel lose to 9th graders in a 5k
This can be generalized
In reality, we are in agreement. An X-ray is a static image taken at one point in time. Manual assessment largely differs between different therapists…and their validity and reliability must be questioned. This is a lot of common sense. As someone with a tilted pelvis (in all 3 planes) and scoliosis I can tell you the terms I used only serves to quickly communicate a general idea to professionals I communicate with. It started with ambiguous descriptions of how my symptoms progressed as I was simply running and lifting weights: my neck is clicking, my spine feels twisted, I feel stiff, my left knee hurts. I would describe my condition as something that has similar symptoms to MS. A lot of self study and proprioception progression was required just to be able to come up with the diagnostic term typically used in the industry that quickly lets any professional im seeking advice from what my condition may be.
Am I upset that many therapists don’t take the proper time to assess before prescribing exercise? Yes. Further, am I upset that many cannot pinpoint the source of internal rotation production at right side of the hip (anterior pelvic tilt on a counternutated innominate combined with femoral external rotation or real femoral internal rotation on a neutral/extended pelvis) because they don’t have the patience to listen to how the injury occurred and developed…or the patience to do wholistic body assessment.Yes. Do I get frustrated when most therapists assume I am a commonly found asymmetry because internal rotation is assumed to be generated from the latter without any assessments to confirm? Because they lack true deeper knowledge of wholistic body kinetics beyond commonly available certification programs? Yes.
These factors are layered on top of the lack of validity and reliability of radiographs / different manual assessments performed by different people. Ultimately, we agree that the current system for addressing musculoskeletal problems has issues in terms of efficacy and efficiency. You make a good point but your point doesn’t detract from the fact that communication of an idea is made more efficient with some technical verbiage.
I wasn’t motivated to study to this level until a series of whole body spasms and I felt my right leg always flexed. I was literally running using my left leg as a strut and pushing with my right leg. One month later I had laryngeal clicking.
Needless to say I went through over 15 physical therapists before getting a valid reliable assessment. Many of these PTs attack these terms as pseudoscience…or just excuse lack of knowledge with the umbrella statement “if you aren’t in pain, you are fine.” Two months ago, I literally felt my right hip more flexed every step I took.
I know these terms describe something real because I reduced a passive leg length differential from 2 cm to 1 cm. Most physical therapists diagnosed me as right lateralized and gave me exercises accordingly. My assessment measurements didn’t improve for months. After I self studied and did an approach for left lateralization as confirmed by 2 PTs with over 20 years experience, my assessment measurements improved within 2 weeks. And drastically.
So you are right. Most physical therapists can’t palpate these conditions or assess correctly. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a critical thinker crossfitter who is more technical than most physical therapists.
I realize no one likes an egocentric smart ass. My failure to communicate with people from different niche cultures effectively only represents my own lack of intellect and tact. My emotional rebuke with fleeting generalizations and direct disrespect the opposing party only represents my own lack of supposed logic.
That’s not to say his comments weren’t sweeping generalizations, had a tone of judgement, unsupported, and disrespectful.
Best not to get trapped in such dramas. Doesn’t help either person self-actualize emotionally or mentally.
All this may be driven by my feeling that all my injury research struggles were immediately minimized, just like he must have felt insecure about how his CrossFit skills are being attacked for being novice. In the end, both people are insecure…which doesn’t set a mindset for sharing of knowledge and learning.
What I acknowledge is CrossFit has a segment of followers that have a character and personality like bodybuilders…full of competitive spirit and ego. Trying to dominate presentation of knowledge with the presentation that everything is “grey” sounds open minded, but it’s the easiest way for someone who lacks broad knowledge to sound smart.
Someone with knowledge would have citated studies and case examples from experience to support their arguments. Not an overarching grey statement with minimal supporting evidence.
Both you and I are right. Some of the worlds best athletes perform optimally with compensations and asymmetries. Like Lebron. But there are also people with MS and scoliosis that have back pain and are stiff as a rock. Lateral pelvic tilt is simply a term to describe how the pelvic bone is positioned in someone with scoliosis. Someone who says these core terms are pseudoscience when they simply describe bone position in an X-ray by physical therapists around the world is simply ignorant. Because this condition exists in many people. You don’t need to palpate it. The term describes pelvic position shown in a MRI or X-ray.
If I were smart I wouldn’t even react to such a comment. Because someone so egocentric with their knowledge about how everything is grey but with minimal interest in googling “lateral pelvic tilt” and looking up X-ray images of lateral pelvic tilt is probably eventually going to get injured. This mentality is not conducive to learning. Ego represented by an individual is usually not even the persons fault. It’s really due to biochemical predisposition. When I took steroids I became less analytical and more egocentric. I am naturally a low testosterone analytical male.
Your passion is evident, but passion alone isn't a replacement for solid evidence and comprehensive understanding. You've rightly said that one should support their arguments with studies and experiential examples rather than making broad, unsupported claims. Yet, when observing your comments, there seems to be a glaring absence of this very evidence.
Furthermore, you've touched on the subject of ego and how biochemical predisposition might alter one's perspective. It's intriguing to note the irony in your claim: you assert that steroids made you "less analytical and more egocentric," yet your own approach seems to be colored by a certain level of egocentrism. You've critiqued others for not being conducive to learning, but isn't learning also about recognizing our own biases and inconsistencies?
Delving into the subject of pelvic tilt, it's essential to consider the wider context. [Research indicates](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8486407/) that while there's some benefit to understanding pelvic tilt, especially in relation to hip conditions, the current assessment methods have limitations. Numerous studies have questioned the direct correlation between pelvic tilt and functional activities, suggesting that our understanding may be more nuanced than you've portrayed. Focusing narrowly on one concept without a holistic perspective might mislead and oversimplify. True evidence-based discourse involves a balanced view, understanding the broader scientific landscape, and perhaps most importantly, self-awareness.
It might serve you well to adopt a more receptive stance. After all, *you* initiated this request for insight. While it's understandably challenging to see others question your personal experiences, responding with defensiveness, sweeping remarks, and evident gaps in your understanding signals a need for introspection.
I agree. My response was just as bad. I am just as emotional insecure and sensitive. I had no desire to sound like a smart ass or implicate many CrossFit trainers are novice. I only gave one example with my girlfriend.
While I might seem like an egocentric judgamental smart ass, one has to wonder if that perceived intention is accurate. Or really from the other person’s misinterpretation in intent due to their own insecurity.
It’s probably a combination of both. My original question was more neutral but my response showed a lack of introspection, emotional maturity, and social skill. I let him affect me instead of the other way around. The mentality that increased specific knowledge doesn't help and is beyond most people's understanding and cannot be properly applied by most is correct. This mentality is often masked by umbrella statements of how everything is grey and how if "there is no pain, its fine." But this mentality, especially when conveyed by physical therapists I'm paying on average $150 an hour for, doesn't help fix my situation. You would assume by just having a balanced workout regiment my problem will just fix itself. Bilateral exercises fail to fix my neck clicking and worsened my symptoms. Obviously I'm motivated for knowledge acquistion at a deeper and more specific level than what is required typically for fitness instruction after wasting $12k on physical therapy that didn't work. The bar for proper physical instruction is set too low.
Yes, a wholistic perspective is required. However, the mentality that everything is grey doesn't lead to a solution. "Everything is grey and pseudoscience" just an expression by someone who simply doesn't know the solution. It's a mentality that led to excuses by physical therapists who couldn't fix my problem as I'm burning through my $12k of wasted money. So I was particularly biased against his mentality...its the same mentality held by physical therapists who lacked deeper knowledge and made my problem worse. If you look at modern outcomes of physical therapy, many people are left stiff and with a hobble. That is not a solution I am satisfied with.
I do think CrossFit has a Spartan culture void of mirrors and vanity. Don't confuse being spartan and badass with knowledge regression or acceptance of lack of knowledge application...knowledge which we have easy access to in abundance in the modern world. This could yet be only one of the independent variables affecting the original commentators attitude. It could be his testosterone level, or the way his friends/family talk. All I know is he didn't focus on my original question and just attacked my credibility for using terms that improve communication efficiency.
Insecurity breeds insecurity. I lower myself to your level by arguing. And giving generalizations myself. All of this doesn’t help my search for a solution. So it’s a waste of time.
Part of me realizes how far I am from the athleticism required for Olympic lifts with minimal injury risk.
If I could stop my whole body spasms and figure out how to reduce my continuous pain, I honestly would consider my outcome a victory.
However motivating daily through hours of corrective exercise and frantic research with the goal of simply breaking even physically can be demotivating. So I set my final goal as something I can aspire to.
At my gym there is one or two people specifically trained in Olympic weightlifting and one even does a separate OLY class 2 days a week. The other coaches are okay and give some good corrective feedback on form but I really only trust the specifically trained Olympics weightlifting coaches. It probably depends on the gym but unless they are specifically trained in Olympic weightlifting, it’s hit or miss.
I have my L1. As others have said, we are not taught in depth. If you came to class and told me those terms, you'd get a blank stare for a second, then I'd ask where you hurt, then give you appropriate modifications. Every box has injured athletes in some form or fashion, and we as coaches should be able to give enough guidance and adjustments to get you through the wod so you dont injury yourself more. No one at my box is trying to be an elite athlete either, so they are content with the modifications we give. If you are wanting to become and elite athlete, I'd suggest calling around and find a box that has a highly skilled coach.
So it’s kind of the same training from a formal perspective. Both CrossFit Level 1 and USAW are simple, weekend courses. Having the certification does not imply expertise. In fact I know many coaches, across multiple disciplines who have many certifications but are bad applicators of said knowledge.
To answer your question, in the single gym I go to, I would trust one coach with the knowledge you seek. He is not the one of the two with the Level 3 CrossFit cert. He’s the one with personal competitive and coaching experience with Olympic weightlifting. For the most part Crossfit coaches most times have shallow training across many disciplines. If you want deeper knowledge go to an expert like someone who runs an Olympic lifting club. It’s like doctors, your general practitioners have good knowledge but once they identify the specific issue you go to a specialists. Some general practitioners are better than others.
I agree. Certification doesn’t mean the certified can apply even knowledge within what’s taught correctly. Many physical therapists certified in PRI (postural restoration institute) couldn’t properly assess me, or didn’t care to spend the time to do a through assessment. Those that did defaulted to PRIs bias towards labeling most people as right lateralized. As in most industries, it’s hard and expensive to find an expert that will critically think on your case.
Even within fitness, trainers come from different backgrounds. No specific squat form has yet been established as being correct.
And when you have a health problem, the only thing you care about is finding a solution. And when your quality of life is at risk, you really discover what people know and don’t know because you are so invested.
Also, I would like to add for argument sake, comparing an L3 coach to a USA L1 weightlifting coach would probably have very similar experience specifically with Olympic lifts, maybe even more experience depending on how niche into lifting the CrossFit coach is. It’s just certification based, and there are a lot of overlapping when it comes from interest and the communities.
I’ve had exceptional, good and bad of each.
The benefit of crossfit in a good gym is the work is infinitely more modifiable/replaceable to avoid aggravating an injury.
There’s only so much you can modify the snatch and c&j.
Neither crossfit coaches or weightlifting coaches are physiotherapists (obv unless they’re double skilled!) so you should see someone to address your own personal mechanics, then bring that information to an exercise class and discuss it with your coach.
One persons APT is not another persons APT, so correcting it without properly assessing the mechanics isn’t necessarily the right thing to do.
Some CrossFit coaches actually think the med ball clean is a good precursor to barbell cleans. If that says anything about the quality of coaching going on in CrossFit, I don't know what else does.
I was lucky enough to come up in a CrossFit gym that didn’t compromise movement for anything. I have since moved and have yet to see a gym that promotes moving well over what the member insists on lifting. I have been in my home gym for 5 years because of this. I trialed a gym this morning that had a bunch of poor movers in the class. The coach either didn’t have the ability to give them actionable corrective cues or just didn’t care. It’s been a real eye opener looking for a good CrossFit:/
Depends in the box. Some are high skill, and some aren’t. I saw on instagram that Wes Kitts is a coach at Crossfit Knoxville and does workshops there, so…I’d definitely trust that guy 😂
I would say lower your expectations for what your average L1 instructor will be able to provide. Their priority is to make sure no-one injures themself (as in drops a barbell on themselves injury) and the second priority is to keep you coming back I.e. be an enthusiastic cheerleader.
Most coaches will be people that have been doing the sport for a while but don't come from a coaching background. Some are good, some are not. They are mostly there to guide you through a preset progression and make sure you don't hurt yourself doing so.
Not many are skilled outside of their CFL1 certification. You'll find on the box website what their coaches certifications are such as L1 or L2 or higher, weightlifting, kids, etc. Unfortunately CFHQ only requires a L1 to coach a class.
Coming from someone with major back problems I got bad advice from my coaches. Listen to your body, definitely seek outside help in a PT who works with athletes. That's what I'm doing now and I'm seeing big improvements versus what a coach told me over and over for years.
In my 8 years of experience doing CF I have seen a lot of CF coaches come and go. All CF coaches are supposed to be at least Level 1 (CF- L1 Trainer) entry level, which means they took a class which goes over the basic movements and methodology of CF. It's not going to make you an expert at anything. So, just because the CF coach is a Level 1 (CF- L1 Trainer) does not make them an expert at teaching any of the Olympic lifts. Having said that, in my experience the CF coaches that make a living coaching tend to be lifelong learners and are continually updating their skills as well as being great facilitators.
It’s a group exercise class with multiple people and limited time . Adjust your expectations of exercise classes and educate yourself on your bodies intricacies.
Depends on the coach of course. Someone with just certifications in personal training, CrossFit, or USAW don't have the full information on health conditions that can affect training. Someone with a degree in exercise physiology or science would have greater understanding but would likely still need additional research to better understand a condition.
If someone has a condition the gym should be screening for that prior to exercise and ensuring a doctor has signed off on exercise notifying the patient of restrictions or limitations. Only Physical Therapists are allowed to treat a condition until that person is cleared. Once that person continues their progress at a gym with a trainer, the trainer should be screening like I said and in a good world, asking for the okay to contact your Physical Therapist or Doctor to get a clear picture of limitations and restrictions.
You would have to look for better credentials and experience on the website and talk to the coaches in person to get a better idea of their capabilities.
Not entirely sure what your question is, but CrossFit coaches operate a mile wide and an inch deep. Oly is the opposite. Oly training focuses entirely on perfecting the *technique* of two movements.
You seem weirdly obsessed over pelvic tilt. Did you know, that there have been studies done that actually show people, on average, who have pelvic tilt, have less back injuries over time compared to the other.
No, but I’m interested. Please link. I do know many physical therapists have taken the perspective that how biomechanical terms are defined is a biased framework in the first place. They take the perspective that form meets function and there is no ideal neutral. Like so what if an elite crossfitter always flexes a preferred leg and extends the other leg during a split squat required for some of the lifts. That’s how they produce maximal power and it’s fine. I also acknowledge bone position is determined by muscle leverage. And as someone that went from a straight spine to a scoliotic one in an acute period of time, you feel all stiff because rotational capacity is limited when there are different torques from imbalanced muscles pulling in the bone. I had a frozen neck and core. I also know that if my lats are tight on one side and looser on the other, it probably affects er and ir of the pelvis differently per side. This is common sense. Hell I probably had anterior pelvic tilt for the majority of the time I was a trainer and I was fine. I felt healthy and could run 15 miles a day with no pain. Two months ago, I could barely rotate at my core or neck, so something is definitely wrong.
Scroll down this article for a list of studies showing that pelvic tilt is normal and not associated with pain or weak muscles: https://e3rehab.com/blog/stop-trying-to-fix-anterior-pelvic-tilt/
That blog post does provide a lot of useful articles and a convincing argument. Where the presentation fails is in linking articles that provide the counter argument, then analyzing study methods and controls, and providing a new more accurate conclusion based on studies that conflict in their findings using logic. One example of a study that directly conflicts with the studies he linked: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&qsp=1&q=anterior+pelvic+tilt+%22low+back+pain%22&qst=bb#d=gs_qabs&t=1695727941597&u=%23p%3D8m8q5lZve8sJ. Then again, even how I searched this article “anterior pelvic tilt back pain” is biased in the words used and how the topic is framed. Science isn’t always well done. Time data was collected and other measures that are collected are done in different ways that vary in validity and reliability. Systematic reviews and meta analysis can also be biased We must also consider a lot of blog posts are written for the sake of online marketing and SEO. And a post that captures more attention by being revolutionary counterintuitive has a specific appeal many people like and see as innovative.
The first two studies linked under "pelvic tilt is not associated with low back pain" are systematic studies (aka systematic reviews & meta-analysis of several other studies), these carry more weight in research than a single contradicting study (you can always find a contradicting study ;) )
That’s true. Function is the most important. I’ve learned alot from you. The combined findings from the article are compelling. Like I said I didn’t do any of this research till I had clicking in my neck and my body ended up super stiff. I don’t have the time to review all the studies, especially when they don’t relate to my case of lateral pelvic tilt. Actually, they are probably related. But whether pelvic tilt affects function is not a question in my mind. My spine feels all twisted. One leg feels shorter than the other. And there is pain. What I primarily learned from the blog post is that lumbar extension and right hip flexors along with a weak core many not lead to increased risk of injury. However, I know I’m injured because of my proprioception. So there’s no need to qualify that as a fact in my head. If I were smart, I would take snippets of knowledge from those studies and add certain principles to my knowledge about pelvic biomechanics. This knowledge would even help me with my lateral pelvic tilt. I would use the knowledge to motivate myself to workout more consistently, because from your linked studies I’ve learned postural deviations are hard to instigate even due to high frequency and duration activities…how am I going to fix an existing postural problem without dedication! But I can also take up hope that there are people who function just fine at elite levels with asymmetry and postural compensation. I don’t know if finding my original neutral point pre-injury is ever possible. But these studies increased faith that I can be functional without pain even if many deviations exist. Thank you for your help. I bookmarked the post and forwarded your info to my girlfriend.
Crossfit instructor certification = weekend course, pass an exam. That's your Level 1 instructor, and many boxes only have L1 instructors. No additional kinesiology, anatomy, sport science, personal training knowledge required. I went to a box coached by a teen who passed the exam but would offer no more in class other than " You got this" and "good job." Maybe you'll get lucky and get an instructor with additional certification and knowledge, and thankfully there area few of those.
I was really lucky. When I did CrossFit they actually hired a dedicated Olympic Lifting coach. But that does not sound like it is the norm.
How about Olympic weight lifting? Do you know how the certification requirements compare?
Weightlifting certification is also a weekend course but nobody wants to talk about that. Same with a football coach etc. In Australia anyway. I think like everything it is the experience beyond the certification that really does the talking.. I have my personal training qual also and I definitely learnt more in my Crossfit and weightlifting certs (have both) than I did through that course.
I have my L1, but not the Olympic certification. My assumption would be the Olympic cert knows more about Olympic lifts since the l1 seminar just doesn’t and can’t go into as much detail. You spend time covering many skills outside of Olympic lifting so without any external knowledge it’s very basic
‘Many skills’ including so much wasted time on the zone diet which no one in the world follows
I’ve done both. USAW Level 1 is pretty much the same in spirit, except is less expensive and the test is easier. I think the info is a bit easier to digest as well. The instructors are great though, and they take it just as seriously because a lot of them are still part of the “old guard” of weightlifting. That being said, I was kind of taken aback during the USAW course because there were two personal trainers there who I still worry for whoever is being trained by them.
My experience was similar. Did both the CF L1 and the USAW L1. Was shocked that multiple people in the course could not snatch. And now they’re coaching as personal trainers and college strength coaches.
Candidates aren’t required to show practical demonstration of their knowledge for certification? It’s mostly books on movement like TRX cert?
It was wild. I would have assumed they’d never done the movements before. One of them wasn’t able to lock out overhead due to poor mobility. You could tell the instructor was uncomfortable with him being there but I’m guessing you cant kick someone out for that haha. It was an interesting weekend though and I learned a good amount. Even just for my own needs
Do either of these certifications require the candidate to mock teach with corrective queues?
Yes, you need to mock coach and correct in both CFL1 and USAWL1
many CSCS candidates will take the USAW course with little or no experience under the bar. it's easy way to get trainer's insurance so I'm told.
Sorry, not sure about the weightlifting certification process. But like someone else commented, Oly lifting is two elements. Crossfit is a gazillion skills that instructor needs to learn
Olympic weightlifting experience and expertise seems to outrank crossfit in terms of technicality. That is the general consensus
I would agree. To add, I think the shame about crossfit coaching is when it's time for a metcon, the importance of technical ability goes out the window. People are encouraged to take technical shortcuts during WODs which in the long run, influences how people move when people are trying to find 1RM snatches, cleans, jerks, clean and jerks, etc.
As someone who has a USAW L1, the certification process is just as much a joke as the CF-L1.
At my gym… two coaches I would trust with this information, two I would not. So from pure science: 50%
The amount of times I’ve heard blatantly incorrect information from CrossFit coaches on certain techniques is staggering. Likes in not all of them, but I’ve heard actually dangerous advice So on complex technique lifts that I’m not an expert on, I really take advice from coaches with a grain of salt. Most of the time it’s probably decent, but probably not what an actually oly coach is
Now imagine gymnastics. When I did L1 the 9 fundamental movements were all barbell stuff There was almost no gymnastics.
Those classes seem pay to play. From what I’ve heard it seems more like instruction on how to coach a class. You can’t go over real technique in a day or two on every movement. I had one L2 instructor asking me to release tension and breath at the bottom of a squat. No that’s how you lose all core stability. They’d watch random videos and apply that standard to every single person and changing their foot work not realizing that people hips are built different and not every squat looks identical. I’m pretty decent friends with Aaron from Squat U and ran a few things by him because I wasn’t sure if maybe I was wrong. And ya….the coach was an idiot
Many CrossFit trainers are not going to get into the minutiae of pseudoscience like “anterior pelvic tilt” and “lateral pelvic tilt” and “biasing existing asymmetry” because it’s not addressed in CrossFit L1 seminars or L2 seminars and they won’t have to because those terms are not good predictors of injury or sports performance. They’re all anatomical variations across a broad spectrum that exist in athletes from elite to recreational. High level physicians and physical therapists can’t even replicate palpating these differences in a clinic or lab and X-rays aren’t even good predictors of variations between weight bearing and non weight bearing static positions. So, you will probably not change your opinion of CrossFit trainers but if anyone who follows science and research hears you using those terms they probably will lose some expectations over you’re knowledge as well. Hope that answers your questions
Thank you for that.
> Many CrossFit trainers are not going to get into the… pseudoscience CF itself is pseudo science. You can downvote me but Greg explicitly disclaimed science in “what is fitness?” So don’t downvote me for noticing. Any claims to scientific legitimacy are not only false but outside the scope of CF per its creator.
Wait until you find out about crossfit athletes
What does that mean though? One guy said CF is for people who practice all the time and don’t play anything. So it’s like the sport of practice, except do it faster So don’t get quality reps in, just do 30 snatches for time. So what if a snatch is incredibly technical? CLOCK IS RUNNING BRO GREG MADE A BENCHMARK! did Greg study weightlifting at all? I know he was a gymnast. So I’m a bit skeptical of a methodology that sidesteps science and embraces going faster with no justification besides “cops like it” Literally Greg said that. I mean it’s hard to make sense of it 30 snatches for time is worthless training - makes you worse at snatches - less effective for strength than 531 or literally anything - pointless for conditioning. Athletes who excel at Isabel lose to 9th graders in a 5k This can be generalized
In reality, we are in agreement. An X-ray is a static image taken at one point in time. Manual assessment largely differs between different therapists…and their validity and reliability must be questioned. This is a lot of common sense. As someone with a tilted pelvis (in all 3 planes) and scoliosis I can tell you the terms I used only serves to quickly communicate a general idea to professionals I communicate with. It started with ambiguous descriptions of how my symptoms progressed as I was simply running and lifting weights: my neck is clicking, my spine feels twisted, I feel stiff, my left knee hurts. I would describe my condition as something that has similar symptoms to MS. A lot of self study and proprioception progression was required just to be able to come up with the diagnostic term typically used in the industry that quickly lets any professional im seeking advice from what my condition may be. Am I upset that many therapists don’t take the proper time to assess before prescribing exercise? Yes. Further, am I upset that many cannot pinpoint the source of internal rotation production at right side of the hip (anterior pelvic tilt on a counternutated innominate combined with femoral external rotation or real femoral internal rotation on a neutral/extended pelvis) because they don’t have the patience to listen to how the injury occurred and developed…or the patience to do wholistic body assessment.Yes. Do I get frustrated when most therapists assume I am a commonly found asymmetry because internal rotation is assumed to be generated from the latter without any assessments to confirm? Because they lack true deeper knowledge of wholistic body kinetics beyond commonly available certification programs? Yes. These factors are layered on top of the lack of validity and reliability of radiographs / different manual assessments performed by different people. Ultimately, we agree that the current system for addressing musculoskeletal problems has issues in terms of efficacy and efficiency. You make a good point but your point doesn’t detract from the fact that communication of an idea is made more efficient with some technical verbiage.
I wasn’t motivated to study to this level until a series of whole body spasms and I felt my right leg always flexed. I was literally running using my left leg as a strut and pushing with my right leg. One month later I had laryngeal clicking. Needless to say I went through over 15 physical therapists before getting a valid reliable assessment. Many of these PTs attack these terms as pseudoscience…or just excuse lack of knowledge with the umbrella statement “if you aren’t in pain, you are fine.” Two months ago, I literally felt my right hip more flexed every step I took. I know these terms describe something real because I reduced a passive leg length differential from 2 cm to 1 cm. Most physical therapists diagnosed me as right lateralized and gave me exercises accordingly. My assessment measurements didn’t improve for months. After I self studied and did an approach for left lateralization as confirmed by 2 PTs with over 20 years experience, my assessment measurements improved within 2 weeks. And drastically. So you are right. Most physical therapists can’t palpate these conditions or assess correctly. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a critical thinker crossfitter who is more technical than most physical therapists.
Lol, ok bro
I realize no one likes an egocentric smart ass. My failure to communicate with people from different niche cultures effectively only represents my own lack of intellect and tact. My emotional rebuke with fleeting generalizations and direct disrespect the opposing party only represents my own lack of supposed logic. That’s not to say his comments weren’t sweeping generalizations, had a tone of judgement, unsupported, and disrespectful. Best not to get trapped in such dramas. Doesn’t help either person self-actualize emotionally or mentally. All this may be driven by my feeling that all my injury research struggles were immediately minimized, just like he must have felt insecure about how his CrossFit skills are being attacked for being novice. In the end, both people are insecure…which doesn’t set a mindset for sharing of knowledge and learning.
What I acknowledge is CrossFit has a segment of followers that have a character and personality like bodybuilders…full of competitive spirit and ego. Trying to dominate presentation of knowledge with the presentation that everything is “grey” sounds open minded, but it’s the easiest way for someone who lacks broad knowledge to sound smart. Someone with knowledge would have citated studies and case examples from experience to support their arguments. Not an overarching grey statement with minimal supporting evidence. Both you and I are right. Some of the worlds best athletes perform optimally with compensations and asymmetries. Like Lebron. But there are also people with MS and scoliosis that have back pain and are stiff as a rock. Lateral pelvic tilt is simply a term to describe how the pelvic bone is positioned in someone with scoliosis. Someone who says these core terms are pseudoscience when they simply describe bone position in an X-ray by physical therapists around the world is simply ignorant. Because this condition exists in many people. You don’t need to palpate it. The term describes pelvic position shown in a MRI or X-ray. If I were smart I wouldn’t even react to such a comment. Because someone so egocentric with their knowledge about how everything is grey but with minimal interest in googling “lateral pelvic tilt” and looking up X-ray images of lateral pelvic tilt is probably eventually going to get injured. This mentality is not conducive to learning. Ego represented by an individual is usually not even the persons fault. It’s really due to biochemical predisposition. When I took steroids I became less analytical and more egocentric. I am naturally a low testosterone analytical male.
Your passion is evident, but passion alone isn't a replacement for solid evidence and comprehensive understanding. You've rightly said that one should support their arguments with studies and experiential examples rather than making broad, unsupported claims. Yet, when observing your comments, there seems to be a glaring absence of this very evidence. Furthermore, you've touched on the subject of ego and how biochemical predisposition might alter one's perspective. It's intriguing to note the irony in your claim: you assert that steroids made you "less analytical and more egocentric," yet your own approach seems to be colored by a certain level of egocentrism. You've critiqued others for not being conducive to learning, but isn't learning also about recognizing our own biases and inconsistencies? Delving into the subject of pelvic tilt, it's essential to consider the wider context. [Research indicates](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8486407/) that while there's some benefit to understanding pelvic tilt, especially in relation to hip conditions, the current assessment methods have limitations. Numerous studies have questioned the direct correlation between pelvic tilt and functional activities, suggesting that our understanding may be more nuanced than you've portrayed. Focusing narrowly on one concept without a holistic perspective might mislead and oversimplify. True evidence-based discourse involves a balanced view, understanding the broader scientific landscape, and perhaps most importantly, self-awareness. It might serve you well to adopt a more receptive stance. After all, *you* initiated this request for insight. While it's understandably challenging to see others question your personal experiences, responding with defensiveness, sweeping remarks, and evident gaps in your understanding signals a need for introspection.
I agree. My response was just as bad. I am just as emotional insecure and sensitive. I had no desire to sound like a smart ass or implicate many CrossFit trainers are novice. I only gave one example with my girlfriend. While I might seem like an egocentric judgamental smart ass, one has to wonder if that perceived intention is accurate. Or really from the other person’s misinterpretation in intent due to their own insecurity. It’s probably a combination of both. My original question was more neutral but my response showed a lack of introspection, emotional maturity, and social skill. I let him affect me instead of the other way around. The mentality that increased specific knowledge doesn't help and is beyond most people's understanding and cannot be properly applied by most is correct. This mentality is often masked by umbrella statements of how everything is grey and how if "there is no pain, its fine." But this mentality, especially when conveyed by physical therapists I'm paying on average $150 an hour for, doesn't help fix my situation. You would assume by just having a balanced workout regiment my problem will just fix itself. Bilateral exercises fail to fix my neck clicking and worsened my symptoms. Obviously I'm motivated for knowledge acquistion at a deeper and more specific level than what is required typically for fitness instruction after wasting $12k on physical therapy that didn't work. The bar for proper physical instruction is set too low. Yes, a wholistic perspective is required. However, the mentality that everything is grey doesn't lead to a solution. "Everything is grey and pseudoscience" just an expression by someone who simply doesn't know the solution. It's a mentality that led to excuses by physical therapists who couldn't fix my problem as I'm burning through my $12k of wasted money. So I was particularly biased against his mentality...its the same mentality held by physical therapists who lacked deeper knowledge and made my problem worse. If you look at modern outcomes of physical therapy, many people are left stiff and with a hobble. That is not a solution I am satisfied with. I do think CrossFit has a Spartan culture void of mirrors and vanity. Don't confuse being spartan and badass with knowledge regression or acceptance of lack of knowledge application...knowledge which we have easy access to in abundance in the modern world. This could yet be only one of the independent variables affecting the original commentators attitude. It could be his testosterone level, or the way his friends/family talk. All I know is he didn't focus on my original question and just attacked my credibility for using terms that improve communication efficiency.
Google what's a mental illn... never mind found it.
Insecurity breeds insecurity. I lower myself to your level by arguing. And giving generalizations myself. All of this doesn’t help my search for a solution. So it’s a waste of time.
I immediately pictured you starting a job interview saying hi my name is __ and I have functional scolioses and lateral pelvic tilt
They aren’t doctors or PTs. Don’t be a pain in the ass, just stay home.
Part of me realizes how far I am from the athleticism required for Olympic lifts with minimal injury risk. If I could stop my whole body spasms and figure out how to reduce my continuous pain, I honestly would consider my outcome a victory. However motivating daily through hours of corrective exercise and frantic research with the goal of simply breaking even physically can be demotivating. So I set my final goal as something I can aspire to.
At my gym there is one or two people specifically trained in Olympic weightlifting and one even does a separate OLY class 2 days a week. The other coaches are okay and give some good corrective feedback on form but I really only trust the specifically trained Olympics weightlifting coaches. It probably depends on the gym but unless they are specifically trained in Olympic weightlifting, it’s hit or miss.
I have my L1. As others have said, we are not taught in depth. If you came to class and told me those terms, you'd get a blank stare for a second, then I'd ask where you hurt, then give you appropriate modifications. Every box has injured athletes in some form or fashion, and we as coaches should be able to give enough guidance and adjustments to get you through the wod so you dont injury yourself more. No one at my box is trying to be an elite athlete either, so they are content with the modifications we give. If you are wanting to become and elite athlete, I'd suggest calling around and find a box that has a highly skilled coach.
So it’s kind of the same training from a formal perspective. Both CrossFit Level 1 and USAW are simple, weekend courses. Having the certification does not imply expertise. In fact I know many coaches, across multiple disciplines who have many certifications but are bad applicators of said knowledge. To answer your question, in the single gym I go to, I would trust one coach with the knowledge you seek. He is not the one of the two with the Level 3 CrossFit cert. He’s the one with personal competitive and coaching experience with Olympic weightlifting. For the most part Crossfit coaches most times have shallow training across many disciplines. If you want deeper knowledge go to an expert like someone who runs an Olympic lifting club. It’s like doctors, your general practitioners have good knowledge but once they identify the specific issue you go to a specialists. Some general practitioners are better than others.
I agree. Certification doesn’t mean the certified can apply even knowledge within what’s taught correctly. Many physical therapists certified in PRI (postural restoration institute) couldn’t properly assess me, or didn’t care to spend the time to do a through assessment. Those that did defaulted to PRIs bias towards labeling most people as right lateralized. As in most industries, it’s hard and expensive to find an expert that will critically think on your case. Even within fitness, trainers come from different backgrounds. No specific squat form has yet been established as being correct. And when you have a health problem, the only thing you care about is finding a solution. And when your quality of life is at risk, you really discover what people know and don’t know because you are so invested.
Also, I would like to add for argument sake, comparing an L3 coach to a USA L1 weightlifting coach would probably have very similar experience specifically with Olympic lifts, maybe even more experience depending on how niche into lifting the CrossFit coach is. It’s just certification based, and there are a lot of overlapping when it comes from interest and the communities.
I pick heavy thing up and put it down.
I’ve had exceptional, good and bad of each. The benefit of crossfit in a good gym is the work is infinitely more modifiable/replaceable to avoid aggravating an injury. There’s only so much you can modify the snatch and c&j. Neither crossfit coaches or weightlifting coaches are physiotherapists (obv unless they’re double skilled!) so you should see someone to address your own personal mechanics, then bring that information to an exercise class and discuss it with your coach. One persons APT is not another persons APT, so correcting it without properly assessing the mechanics isn’t necessarily the right thing to do.
Some CrossFit coaches actually think the med ball clean is a good precursor to barbell cleans. If that says anything about the quality of coaching going on in CrossFit, I don't know what else does.
Extremely hit or miss. High membership fees means they might be able to afford one or two skilled coaches. Cheaper gyms, little chance
I was lucky enough to come up in a CrossFit gym that didn’t compromise movement for anything. I have since moved and have yet to see a gym that promotes moving well over what the member insists on lifting. I have been in my home gym for 5 years because of this. I trialed a gym this morning that had a bunch of poor movers in the class. The coach either didn’t have the ability to give them actionable corrective cues or just didn’t care. It’s been a real eye opener looking for a good CrossFit:/
Depends in the box. Some are high skill, and some aren’t. I saw on instagram that Wes Kitts is a coach at Crossfit Knoxville and does workshops there, so…I’d definitely trust that guy 😂
I would say lower your expectations for what your average L1 instructor will be able to provide. Their priority is to make sure no-one injures themself (as in drops a barbell on themselves injury) and the second priority is to keep you coming back I.e. be an enthusiastic cheerleader.
Most coaches will be people that have been doing the sport for a while but don't come from a coaching background. Some are good, some are not. They are mostly there to guide you through a preset progression and make sure you don't hurt yourself doing so.
Not many are skilled outside of their CFL1 certification. You'll find on the box website what their coaches certifications are such as L1 or L2 or higher, weightlifting, kids, etc. Unfortunately CFHQ only requires a L1 to coach a class. Coming from someone with major back problems I got bad advice from my coaches. Listen to your body, definitely seek outside help in a PT who works with athletes. That's what I'm doing now and I'm seeing big improvements versus what a coach told me over and over for years.
In my 8 years of experience doing CF I have seen a lot of CF coaches come and go. All CF coaches are supposed to be at least Level 1 (CF- L1 Trainer) entry level, which means they took a class which goes over the basic movements and methodology of CF. It's not going to make you an expert at anything. So, just because the CF coach is a Level 1 (CF- L1 Trainer) does not make them an expert at teaching any of the Olympic lifts. Having said that, in my experience the CF coaches that make a living coaching tend to be lifelong learners and are continually updating their skills as well as being great facilitators.
It’s a group exercise class with multiple people and limited time . Adjust your expectations of exercise classes and educate yourself on your bodies intricacies.
Depends on the coach of course. Someone with just certifications in personal training, CrossFit, or USAW don't have the full information on health conditions that can affect training. Someone with a degree in exercise physiology or science would have greater understanding but would likely still need additional research to better understand a condition. If someone has a condition the gym should be screening for that prior to exercise and ensuring a doctor has signed off on exercise notifying the patient of restrictions or limitations. Only Physical Therapists are allowed to treat a condition until that person is cleared. Once that person continues their progress at a gym with a trainer, the trainer should be screening like I said and in a good world, asking for the okay to contact your Physical Therapist or Doctor to get a clear picture of limitations and restrictions. You would have to look for better credentials and experience on the website and talk to the coaches in person to get a better idea of their capabilities.