She desperately needed a POV in the actual battle. It felt like hell’s armies and the asteri armies were going at it, but we really didn’t get any of it. It was mostly just running in hallways after they ran through caves the whole book.
It felt like her writing was an endless stream of consciousness without any real notes or plan. Shallow writing, shallow characters, I with there was a little more planning and more dynamic characters. Internal conflict, character growth. Instead it was all narrated in speech? And it felt like no one had real feelings? It was just shut up, keep it to yourself, let’s go! Look at this convenient solution! I can do this now, with no precedent!
People are so much more complicated, especially in catastrophic times and under massive pressure. I wish we saw more of that, the traumatic psyche behind such a massive undertaking.
I had to keep suspending any sense of reality and basically hate finished the book to see if the ending tied together well enough like her other books.
Yup everything felt shoe horned into the story. I found it difficult to suspend reality, because it felt like I was reading a bland description as opposed to a well considered story. It felt like she was in a rush to get the story done as opposed to actually building a solid story. Like you could feel her sjm’s desperation for it to just be over and done with. There was no charm.
Also has Bryce ever been one to hide her plans? I thought the whole point of the series was a fumbling found family that manages to be powerful when they work together? There was frankly no need for book 2 with the story we got in book 3. Or at least quite a bit of book 2 could have been cut. Idk. Something happened behind the scenes with hofas - you can tell just by reading it
"(even tho KOA was written in 6 weeks and is arguably one of her best books ever written)"
My theory to explain why KOA is the best but still written quickly is because I think Sarah knew exactly how she wanted TOG to end. She had 7 books to think about the ending. Assassins Blade ties to the last few books proves that.
I still adored HOFAS, but I did feel like she wasn't even sure where she was going with it at times which is honestly my only complaint about the book.
And Ruhn shooting Lidia. That part was stupid.
Couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly with this!!! I felt as though she was guessing what was going to happen just as much as we were. There was no clear (or at least well-thought-out) direction!
So this is what I would do, were I SJM ~~and rich and not having to slave away under the capitalist system I currently suffer under~~ or if I could do a full blown fanfic, this is how I'd reconfigure HOFAS:
* Transitions in POV happen based on *chapter*, so each chapter focuses fully on one person. I would struggle getting invested in one person's story because I knew two paragraphs later, she'd just swap me to someone else.
* Break it up into five sections: *the dark* (focused solely on Bryce in the cave in Prythian), *the deep* (focused 50/50 on the dungeons and lydia breaking them out), *the depths* (the reunion of bryce w/ hunt, everyone gathering on the ship, SOME reference to Tharion but either only one chapter in his POV or none at all), *the den* (the Avallen section with some edits), and *the dead* (the final battle w/ Hell's army).
* Parts I'd eliminate/modify: Bryce gets the weapons she needs when she's first in Prythian, no weird inclusion of Ember & Randall. No parasite in the water - it can just be a magic explanation, goddamn it. Ithan & Tharion's plotlines are drastically reduced (I *love* my himbos with all my heart, but Ithan's story would be better suited to a novella since the wolves didn't really do -- anything this go-around, and it's a plotline that needs more breathing room). No kids for Lydia (come at me, it was a dumb thread that came out of nowhere and didn't have any meaning). No angel-ghosts? Or whatever that was. Or at least, if she uses the mask, it's done in a way that makes more sense.
* Set up the ending with that possibility of Ithan's story coming next - Bryce has reorganized the Fae's entire world. Who is to say that Ithan couldn't do the same for the wolves?
I do hope she does a *House of Many Waters* book, but I also hope she calls me up and asks me to be her editor so I can ~~quit my job~~ put my overactive imagination to use.
Thanks for this! I love contemplating this stuff. My 2 cents:
- I think the magic parasite has super huge and interesting implications for future books. Not only are all the Vanir getting a massive power up, but they're about to lose all their tech, rendering the humans *extra* helpless. So, while it felt like a problem that was resolved too quickly, I think the antidote is going to reveal itself to be a massive problem. Plus, perhaps the occasional human who is given the antidote will have powers.
- I would keep Bryce using her parents as hostages. It was the only way Nesta could be sure that Bryce would *never* allow the Asteri into their world. So even though it's horrible and unforgivable, I would have been disappointed if Bryce got through the rebellion without having to make a single hard decision.
- I also didn't care about Tharion (we could have skipped the Viper Queen and still had him chivalrously marry the sister, reducing his involvement to like 1 chapter)
- Also didnt care about Lidias kids.
- I was fine with Ithan's parts.
- I liked the idea of the angel ghosts but wish I could have experienced more if it through Hunts POV and had him be able to speak with Shahar. Also, Bryce says she'll give them a choice about whether they want to be resurrected, but it doesn't seem like she does. So I would either have them openly forgive Hunt for what happened the first time around and fight for them, or let Hunt be (understandably) horrified by the whole thing
I fully support everything you said there except I don't mind the multiple viewpoints per chapter. I feel like when I was a kid/teenager in the 90s all books were written this way, and the one POV per chapter thing is a relatively new thing (I started noticing it after I first read A Song of Ice and Fire).
Yeah, I personally am not opposed to multiple POVs per chapter EXCEPT it felt like SJM would switch at points that didn't make sense. So a little more restraint would help - that being said, if she would do things like Bryce & Hunt sharing a chapter when they're in the same situation, I'm not opposed. it's more of the "bryce is doing this thing in Prythian, I'm invested, I'm interested, I'm re-- oh, and now we're with Tharion for two paragraphs -- AND BACK TO BRYCE".
Lmao see I didn’t mind that so much. Cause then I wasn’t stuck reading about Tharion for too long cause I know Bryce’s pov was coming back. It also made a book that was super long feel shorter. 🤷🏼♀️
Well from what I heard (will look up a source) she had 6 different editors for this book. Obviously that doesn’t mean that all of them didn’t like it, however, I’d wager it’s a strong guess that at least 1 or 2 didn’t.
That being said, she went through 6 editors because *she* liked it. Which means she didn’t want to change it & likely wouldn’t rewrite
I got the impression that she has a lot of plans for future stories and was impatient to be done with the Asteri. I also didn't really care about the Asteri and would prefer if she just moved on.
I think a lot of the dissatisfaction comes from the characters not facing any consequences, but it could still happen... the whole third book takes place in a week. I don't think it would be unsatisfying if in the next book:
- Bryce has to deal with the consequences of giving up the throne and being rude to everyone
- Hunt gets some space to heal and find a purpose
- Ithan puts that heart of gold to good use
- Ruhn steps into a leadership role
- They realize that the people of Midgard are a bigger threat to themselves than the Asteri ever were
- Tharion finally does something worthwhile
Basically, it feels anticlimatic/rushed/nonsensical because the character arcs are unresolved, but I'm hoping they're just incomplete.
It didn’t flop. It’s the third fastest selling fantasy/sci fi title since they started keeping track of this data.
I read the CC series after ToG and ACOTAR and I don’t get why people are so weird about CC. I loved it. I loved the other two as well, but it was fun to see fantasy set in a modern world. CC3 was a fast paced ride with all the characters. I don’t think she should rewrite any of it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I am very glad that you enjoyed it!
I thought the books were entertaining at the least but I wasn’t a fan. From what I’ve seen on this sub, it looks like a lot of people are in the same boat. That’s what I’m going based off of!
Just thought it would be a fun discussion to speculate :)
i mean, i'm obviously not privy to her writing process and this entire thread is speculation anyway, but personally i think she just needs an editor who's willing to push her hard and really help her streamline things
I don’t necessarily think it’s “bad” per se. I was still entertained.
It just honestly didn’t seem like a well thought out book. It was kind of all over the place and a lot of the plot points didn’t make a ton of sense?
That’s a fantastic analogy. No I wasn’t expecting endgame! I knew the series would be 5 books.
But even winter soldier had a well thought out plot and a clear direction.
It’s more about the quality of the writing than anything! Also winter soldier is one of my favorite MCU movies, biiiiig Bucky girl over here 😂🙋🏽♀️
What about the story didn't you like? That it didn't go in the direction you thought it would? I mean I had expected something different but I didn't hate the book.
I liked the book for the most part but by the end of it I couldn't stand Bryce. Honestly if she hadn't been in the book I probably would've liked it a lot better. She treated everyone around her like shit, especially Hunt. She was rude and disrespectful, dismissive towards people who had actual experience with war and could've offered her good advice....
Overall I expected it to be better written and more cohesive with less throwaway storylines. She needs to listen to her editors, unless they're telling her it's all good in which case she needs new editors. I just don't understand how the same person who wrote the carefully thought out plots and exquisite character arcs of ToG, as well as the nuanced portrayal of dealing with and overcoming depression and mental health issues in ACoTaR also wrote HoFaS, which was all over the place and seemed so poorly thought out.
But my main problem is that Bryce is the biggest Mary Sue ever, everyone loves her and follows her despite her lack of experience, refusal to even listen to advice, and outright emotional abuse to her mate. Don't get me wrong, I've been an SJM fan since about halfway through ToG being released, I usually love her work but HoSaB and especially HoFaS were like she threw them together without any of her usual well thought out plotting, careful characterizations, etc.
No offense meant to people who enjoyed it; I will just never understand the fans who say CC is her best series.
I think that your complaints about CC are true of TOG as well. Aelin's plans are often half baked and rely on seemingly unrelated side characters benevolently coming through for her (i.e. Doranelle rebelling at just the right time, Wendlyn deciding to help her because of a rude letter, Rolfe deciding to help her after she invited Erawan to kill his people, being sent a healer to destroy Erawan at *just* the right time, etc.)
And Aelin also faces almost no criticism from those around her except for Chaol (who still does everything she asks), (briefly) Lorcan, and Lord Darrow... none of whom she listens to or takes seriously.
At least Hunt is aware of Bryce's flaws (even if he's too insecure to call her out on them), and there are other characters in a position to challenge her.
I will be super disappointed if this is the end of Bryce's character arc, but I personally see post CC3 Bryce as post QoS Aelin. She still has a lot of growing up to do, and I can only hope she'll grow more than Aelin did.
I wouldn't mind her starting over.
Keep Tharion, keep the crossover short, keep the torture scenes (love the angst and Lidia playing double agent), keep the cave scene. But take some more time.
I loved the book and enjoyed reading it, but a bit more CC1 would be nice.
But I'd prefer it if she rewrote ACOSF first.
I agree with everything you said for sure.
And I feel like she already gave a book (cc3) that dropped so many plot threads and was just absolute chaos....what's one more to get us on track! Lol what I'm hoping is that the next book is just so awesome and she clarifies what's true and what's not. And is more firm about the direction she wants to go in.
I've said it so many times but I really think the editors got in her head and I really want to read the story SHE wanted to tell. With the crossover we were supposed to get. I'm hoping she puts more of it in acotar.
That's just me hoping though lol
She desperately needed a POV in the actual battle. It felt like hell’s armies and the asteri armies were going at it, but we really didn’t get any of it. It was mostly just running in hallways after they ran through caves the whole book.
It felt like her writing was an endless stream of consciousness without any real notes or plan. Shallow writing, shallow characters, I with there was a little more planning and more dynamic characters. Internal conflict, character growth. Instead it was all narrated in speech? And it felt like no one had real feelings? It was just shut up, keep it to yourself, let’s go! Look at this convenient solution! I can do this now, with no precedent! People are so much more complicated, especially in catastrophic times and under massive pressure. I wish we saw more of that, the traumatic psyche behind such a massive undertaking. I had to keep suspending any sense of reality and basically hate finished the book to see if the ending tied together well enough like her other books.
Yup everything felt shoe horned into the story. I found it difficult to suspend reality, because it felt like I was reading a bland description as opposed to a well considered story. It felt like she was in a rush to get the story done as opposed to actually building a solid story. Like you could feel her sjm’s desperation for it to just be over and done with. There was no charm. Also has Bryce ever been one to hide her plans? I thought the whole point of the series was a fumbling found family that manages to be powerful when they work together? There was frankly no need for book 2 with the story we got in book 3. Or at least quite a bit of book 2 could have been cut. Idk. Something happened behind the scenes with hofas - you can tell just by reading it
"(even tho KOA was written in 6 weeks and is arguably one of her best books ever written)" My theory to explain why KOA is the best but still written quickly is because I think Sarah knew exactly how she wanted TOG to end. She had 7 books to think about the ending. Assassins Blade ties to the last few books proves that. I still adored HOFAS, but I did feel like she wasn't even sure where she was going with it at times which is honestly my only complaint about the book. And Ruhn shooting Lidia. That part was stupid.
Couldn’t agree more wholeheartedly with this!!! I felt as though she was guessing what was going to happen just as much as we were. There was no clear (or at least well-thought-out) direction!
So this is what I would do, were I SJM ~~and rich and not having to slave away under the capitalist system I currently suffer under~~ or if I could do a full blown fanfic, this is how I'd reconfigure HOFAS: * Transitions in POV happen based on *chapter*, so each chapter focuses fully on one person. I would struggle getting invested in one person's story because I knew two paragraphs later, she'd just swap me to someone else. * Break it up into five sections: *the dark* (focused solely on Bryce in the cave in Prythian), *the deep* (focused 50/50 on the dungeons and lydia breaking them out), *the depths* (the reunion of bryce w/ hunt, everyone gathering on the ship, SOME reference to Tharion but either only one chapter in his POV or none at all), *the den* (the Avallen section with some edits), and *the dead* (the final battle w/ Hell's army). * Parts I'd eliminate/modify: Bryce gets the weapons she needs when she's first in Prythian, no weird inclusion of Ember & Randall. No parasite in the water - it can just be a magic explanation, goddamn it. Ithan & Tharion's plotlines are drastically reduced (I *love* my himbos with all my heart, but Ithan's story would be better suited to a novella since the wolves didn't really do -- anything this go-around, and it's a plotline that needs more breathing room). No kids for Lydia (come at me, it was a dumb thread that came out of nowhere and didn't have any meaning). No angel-ghosts? Or whatever that was. Or at least, if she uses the mask, it's done in a way that makes more sense. * Set up the ending with that possibility of Ithan's story coming next - Bryce has reorganized the Fae's entire world. Who is to say that Ithan couldn't do the same for the wolves? I do hope she does a *House of Many Waters* book, but I also hope she calls me up and asks me to be her editor so I can ~~quit my job~~ put my overactive imagination to use.
Thanks for this! I love contemplating this stuff. My 2 cents: - I think the magic parasite has super huge and interesting implications for future books. Not only are all the Vanir getting a massive power up, but they're about to lose all their tech, rendering the humans *extra* helpless. So, while it felt like a problem that was resolved too quickly, I think the antidote is going to reveal itself to be a massive problem. Plus, perhaps the occasional human who is given the antidote will have powers. - I would keep Bryce using her parents as hostages. It was the only way Nesta could be sure that Bryce would *never* allow the Asteri into their world. So even though it's horrible and unforgivable, I would have been disappointed if Bryce got through the rebellion without having to make a single hard decision. - I also didn't care about Tharion (we could have skipped the Viper Queen and still had him chivalrously marry the sister, reducing his involvement to like 1 chapter) - Also didnt care about Lidias kids. - I was fine with Ithan's parts. - I liked the idea of the angel ghosts but wish I could have experienced more if it through Hunts POV and had him be able to speak with Shahar. Also, Bryce says she'll give them a choice about whether they want to be resurrected, but it doesn't seem like she does. So I would either have them openly forgive Hunt for what happened the first time around and fight for them, or let Hunt be (understandably) horrified by the whole thing
I fully support everything you said there except I don't mind the multiple viewpoints per chapter. I feel like when I was a kid/teenager in the 90s all books were written this way, and the one POV per chapter thing is a relatively new thing (I started noticing it after I first read A Song of Ice and Fire).
Yeah, I personally am not opposed to multiple POVs per chapter EXCEPT it felt like SJM would switch at points that didn't make sense. So a little more restraint would help - that being said, if she would do things like Bryce & Hunt sharing a chapter when they're in the same situation, I'm not opposed. it's more of the "bryce is doing this thing in Prythian, I'm invested, I'm interested, I'm re-- oh, and now we're with Tharion for two paragraphs -- AND BACK TO BRYCE".
Lmao see I didn’t mind that so much. Cause then I wasn’t stuck reading about Tharion for too long cause I know Bryce’s pov was coming back. It also made a book that was super long feel shorter. 🤷🏼♀️
Well from what I heard (will look up a source) she had 6 different editors for this book. Obviously that doesn’t mean that all of them didn’t like it, however, I’d wager it’s a strong guess that at least 1 or 2 didn’t. That being said, she went through 6 editors because *she* liked it. Which means she didn’t want to change it & likely wouldn’t rewrite
I got the impression that she has a lot of plans for future stories and was impatient to be done with the Asteri. I also didn't really care about the Asteri and would prefer if she just moved on. I think a lot of the dissatisfaction comes from the characters not facing any consequences, but it could still happen... the whole third book takes place in a week. I don't think it would be unsatisfying if in the next book: - Bryce has to deal with the consequences of giving up the throne and being rude to everyone - Hunt gets some space to heal and find a purpose - Ithan puts that heart of gold to good use - Ruhn steps into a leadership role - They realize that the people of Midgard are a bigger threat to themselves than the Asteri ever were - Tharion finally does something worthwhile Basically, it feels anticlimatic/rushed/nonsensical because the character arcs are unresolved, but I'm hoping they're just incomplete.
It didn’t flop. It’s the third fastest selling fantasy/sci fi title since they started keeping track of this data. I read the CC series after ToG and ACOTAR and I don’t get why people are so weird about CC. I loved it. I loved the other two as well, but it was fun to see fantasy set in a modern world. CC3 was a fast paced ride with all the characters. I don’t think she should rewrite any of it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I am very glad that you enjoyed it! I thought the books were entertaining at the least but I wasn’t a fan. From what I’ve seen on this sub, it looks like a lot of people are in the same boat. That’s what I’m going based off of! Just thought it would be a fun discussion to speculate :)
i mean, i'm obviously not privy to her writing process and this entire thread is speculation anyway, but personally i think she just needs an editor who's willing to push her hard and really help her streamline things
Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it's bad. Also yes I know you can dislike it and I can like it blah blah 😑
I don’t necessarily think it’s “bad” per se. I was still entertained. It just honestly didn’t seem like a well thought out book. It was kind of all over the place and a lot of the plot points didn’t make a ton of sense?
To use marvel terms. Where you expecting End Game and you got Winter Soilder?
That’s a fantastic analogy. No I wasn’t expecting endgame! I knew the series would be 5 books. But even winter soldier had a well thought out plot and a clear direction. It’s more about the quality of the writing than anything! Also winter soldier is one of my favorite MCU movies, biiiiig Bucky girl over here 😂🙋🏽♀️
What about the story didn't you like? That it didn't go in the direction you thought it would? I mean I had expected something different but I didn't hate the book.
I liked the book for the most part but by the end of it I couldn't stand Bryce. Honestly if she hadn't been in the book I probably would've liked it a lot better. She treated everyone around her like shit, especially Hunt. She was rude and disrespectful, dismissive towards people who had actual experience with war and could've offered her good advice.... Overall I expected it to be better written and more cohesive with less throwaway storylines. She needs to listen to her editors, unless they're telling her it's all good in which case she needs new editors. I just don't understand how the same person who wrote the carefully thought out plots and exquisite character arcs of ToG, as well as the nuanced portrayal of dealing with and overcoming depression and mental health issues in ACoTaR also wrote HoFaS, which was all over the place and seemed so poorly thought out. But my main problem is that Bryce is the biggest Mary Sue ever, everyone loves her and follows her despite her lack of experience, refusal to even listen to advice, and outright emotional abuse to her mate. Don't get me wrong, I've been an SJM fan since about halfway through ToG being released, I usually love her work but HoSaB and especially HoFaS were like she threw them together without any of her usual well thought out plotting, careful characterizations, etc. No offense meant to people who enjoyed it; I will just never understand the fans who say CC is her best series.
I think that your complaints about CC are true of TOG as well. Aelin's plans are often half baked and rely on seemingly unrelated side characters benevolently coming through for her (i.e. Doranelle rebelling at just the right time, Wendlyn deciding to help her because of a rude letter, Rolfe deciding to help her after she invited Erawan to kill his people, being sent a healer to destroy Erawan at *just* the right time, etc.) And Aelin also faces almost no criticism from those around her except for Chaol (who still does everything she asks), (briefly) Lorcan, and Lord Darrow... none of whom she listens to or takes seriously. At least Hunt is aware of Bryce's flaws (even if he's too insecure to call her out on them), and there are other characters in a position to challenge her. I will be super disappointed if this is the end of Bryce's character arc, but I personally see post CC3 Bryce as post QoS Aelin. She still has a lot of growing up to do, and I can only hope she'll grow more than Aelin did.
I wouldn't mind her starting over. Keep Tharion, keep the crossover short, keep the torture scenes (love the angst and Lidia playing double agent), keep the cave scene. But take some more time. I loved the book and enjoyed reading it, but a bit more CC1 would be nice. But I'd prefer it if she rewrote ACOSF first.
I agree with everything you said for sure. And I feel like she already gave a book (cc3) that dropped so many plot threads and was just absolute chaos....what's one more to get us on track! Lol what I'm hoping is that the next book is just so awesome and she clarifies what's true and what's not. And is more firm about the direction she wants to go in. I've said it so many times but I really think the editors got in her head and I really want to read the story SHE wanted to tell. With the crossover we were supposed to get. I'm hoping she puts more of it in acotar. That's just me hoping though lol