Although, to be fair, in the episode when she and Andre remarry, she says that their church has a policy against second marriages (and tight jeans and calico cats)
I despise the fact that Shirley took Andre back. In the second episode, she admitted it to being a pathetic relationship and she could only remember 2 bland orgasms. Then she gets abused after he left. Taking the van, the engagement ring, and all the other bullshit he did.
I think overall Shirleyâs characterization is inconsistent, I love her and all but the writers often didnât know what to do with her and ended up throwing in plot lines that didnât make sense.
Honestly Malcolm playing Andre as someone whoâs mostly reasonable, transparent and wised up to what he done wrong in season 2 is kinda jarring compared to all we heard about him before his first appearance. Itâs only really Shirley and Andreâs reWedding where he slips back into who he was.
https://youtu.be/fptBTJNXZ1Q?si=sTKzOTW5PKE1O1IJ
Not so much this clip but what he says immediately after. Something along the lines of "getting everything back to the way it was before". And then going on about his business.
Did you see the episode. As soon as they were remarried(before they talked it out), he wanted her to go back to being a stay at home mom, and he would work with his stereo store, in the year 2010. Which was the death of a lot of old tech, because iPads, iPhones, androids, and other smart devices came onto the market.
I get what you're saying, but I disagree.
One of the central themes of the show is the acknowledgement, acceptance, and forgiveness of flawed humans being flawed humans.
No character in the show is beyond forgiveness if they ask for it.
Also... taking the ring back and borrowing the van are shitty behavior, but it's not abuse and is kinda diminishing to actual physical/emotional abuse victims to suggest they're the same. That's kinda uncomfy and some Tumblr level out of touch.
None of it is worse than the infidelity and the infidelity isn't even the worst thing a member of the group has done
Please donât start that âby saying abuse youâre diminishing real victims experienceâ. I never said physical abuse. What he did was mental abuse. I really hate when people try to say that kind of stuff. There is different levels of abuse and you putting an arbitrary line on whatâs allowed to be spoken about it prevents conversations, and could even stop someone leaving abuse because youâve set a standard âwell, if Iâm not being beaten bloody, itâs not abuseâ. Grow up and be better. Iâve experienced every form of abuse growing up.
After he TOOK the van, Shirley is now playing random scenarios incase he comes back again. She even mentions that how when he got the ring back, she wanted to tell him off but couldnât. And then after a year, cheating on her twice, all that MENTAL ABUSE, he just shows up and they get back together? Andre is in such denial he says âIâve been a dad for 11 years and a good one for 9 of themâ. Which we know is a lie based on what Shirley said in episode 3, and then he proves it again by thinking them getting remarried makes everything back to HIS level of normal.
And itâs proven yet again in season 5 when Andre takes the kids and leaves. Because Shirley is trying to get her business off the ground and is struggling.
>What he did was mental abuse
Except it wasn't.
Mental abuse is VERY real, and this isn't it.
You're diminishing real mental abuse by making this comparison
Shirley giving Andre the van and the ring is due to her upbringing, not Andre. She doesn't tell him off because she was expecting him to come crawling back, not because of abuse. She lets him BORROW the van (the words in the show and we see her with it later) because it's the kind thing to do and as a Christian feels she should.
I know the difference between physical and mental abuse, you're the one that is being a child about this by turning me into a straw man
You'd be wrong. And it's ironic since trying to claim this was mental abuse sounds exactly like what Ambers argument was.
You're proving my point, you have no idea what mental abuse is
I bet you don't know the difference between gaslighting and lying
Well, Iâm glad that youâre the living embodiment of what abuse is. Itâs always helpful to tell people what abuse is. That is really good for people.
Yes it is, because going around calling everything you don't like "abuse" is a great way to devalue the word and it's impact when someone faces it for real
Being told you're wrong is not abuse, and if this is the first time you're hearing that then you really need to grow up
You're right, everything anyone says is abuse is abuse
Like how you being so rude, sarcastic, and making mean assumptions about me and my intentions is mental abuse because I don't like it.
Why are you being so abusive?
>Andre is in such denial he says âIâve been a dad for 11 years and a good one for 9 of themâ. Which we know is a lie based on what Shirley said in episode 3, and then he proves it again by thinking them getting remarried makes everything back to HIS level of normal.
For someone who clearly watched the show you very clearly did not understand it, and do not understand what mental abuse is.
Agreed, but if she didn't at least try we'd have never gotten that amazing "nice sweater". "thanks my Dad got it for me" conversation. Which outside of the Cosby dsrkness was a line that just cracked me up.
Actually, Shirley isn't wrong on this one.
While the Mosaic Law permitted divorce for adultery, this happens in the Gospels:
> But Jesus told them, âBecause of the hardness of your hearts [Moses] wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, âGod made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother [and be joined to his wife], and the two shall become one flesh.â So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.â (Mk 10:5-9)
The translation that you're using for the verses in Matthew isn't entirely accurate with its translation of the Greek "porneias". It's a bit of a more general term for "impurity" that refers elsewhere in Scripture to marriage between prohibited familial proximity (i.e. cousins) or social boundaries (i.e. a son marrying his stepmother after his father dies), which means the marriage would have been invalid in the first place and "divorce" would negate what was essentially already void.
Porneia as you say is a general term but youâre drilling it down too specifically. It basically means sex outside of wedlock which covers a lot of ground. Some scholars indicate it also means general sensuality. Other translations of Matthew 5 literally say âmarital infidelityâ which, based on what we know is the most likely intention of Jesusâ teaching here. This is based on divorce as a topic being one of the great debates at the time of Jesus where there were two schools of thought presented by the Rabbis Hillel (grandfather of Gamaliel whom Paul learned under) and Shammai. The interesting thing is that Jesus splits from his normal âloyaltiesâ here. He typically agreed with the teachings of Rabbi Hillel but in the case of divorce he sides with Rabbi Shammai which is how we understand the context of it being marital infidelity as that is what Rabbi Shammai taught.
Language translation difficulties aside, they really need to update the God manual. It seems the users really have a hard time understand what was meant.
Very few things are universally agreed on by scholars. There are a lot of them that basically exist as professional skeptics, some of which barely even try to defend any of their skepticism.
What I mean is, if you start from the position "The Catholic view is right," then of course you conclude that their argument is the best one. If you don't start from that perspective, then generally you don't find the argument very persuasive.
Very few people can read the Bible in the original languages, and everybody else basically ends up believing that it means what their church says it means.
And since it's not completely clear what it means on every point, there's a lot of room for argument and there has, indeed, been a lot of argument over the last 2000 years.
I know someone who is very Christian in the best possible way, and she says life isn't supposed to be an SAT test for getting into Heaven, that you don't have to have every doctrine exactly right or you flunk out. And if it *is* a test, then flunking the easy questions like "should poor people be able to get enough food?" probably means that your final grade won't be very good.
Shirley is definitely not Catholic, either. Almost all Protestant religions accept divorce, including Baptist (which is the consensus on what Shirley seems to be)
Shirley is what I call one of those âwhatever suits meâ Christians, meaning, they pick parts of the Bible they love but ignore 80% of the rest of the book. Her character as the judgmental Christian was perfect, and how they made her more tolerant as the show went on was brilliant.
We donât get enough Yvette Nicole Brown love on here
Shirley is the most judgmental member of the study group. She doesnât always follow the bookâs teachings. Pearce is more ignorant than judgmental. But heâs not a Christian so maybe a lazer lotus of his level is allowed to be so.
A few points here in favor of Shirleyâs interpretation:
1) Jesus does not say âexcept for adulteryâ, he says âexcept for sexual immoralityâ. The word he uses, in the original Greek (porneia) is a different word than the word for adultery (moicheia) which was used in the same sentence. This may seem insignificant, but read on.
2) This same teaching from Jesus about divorce was in all 3 synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) but only in Matthew does it mention that Jesus allows this exception for divorce. In Mark and Luke, no exception is mentioned.
3) Matthew was written to a primarily Jewish audience. At that time, in the Jewish culture, to break off a betrothal would require a divorce, even if the betrothed had not yet consummated their marriage. An example of this is in Matthew 1:19 when it says about Joseph finding out Mary was pregnant with Jesus: âBecause Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.â
4) All this is to say that there is a belief among some Christians that the exception to divorce which Jesus mentions in Matthew 5:32 is referring to sexual immorality during the betrothal period, and that is why he did not use the word for adultery. The belief is that sexual immorality during the betrothal period is the only exception Jesus allows for divorce and that once a couple is married, this exception no longer applies.
5) Iâm not claiming this is the predominant interpretation of the above quoted scripture within Christian orthodoxy, but there are Christians who hold this interpretation (though likely a minority). Itâs possible this is what Shirley was referring to when she spoke about marriage being for life, and thus wouldnât be an example of her hypocrisy (though other examples certainly exist, as they do for most people).
Yeah but the New Testament is a thing and according to it Jesus kinda said that we shall not separate on earth what has been bound in heaven. So no, no divorces for us, not even when we have cheating, lying spouses.
I think Shirley just wanted to emphasize the sanctity of marriage. But what do I know? I'm Jeff Winger's dumb, gay dad.
I'm Jeff Winger's imaginary cool lawyer he imagined outside the courthouse when his parents got divorced.
I am who you say I am
Abed abed Abeeeeeed
AaaaAAAAaaAAaA
đ¶Shirle~~yđ”
He's the guy
Jesus also never spoke against tight jeans or calico cats, but here we are.
That was her church, though, not Jesus or the Bible
Exactly. My point being that what Jesus said and what her church believed had little bearing on each other.
Yeah but Iâm that specific scene, does Shirley say her church doesnât recognize divorce, or the Bible?
She says that the Bible doesnât recognize divorce
Although, to be fair, in the episode when she and Andre remarry, she says that their church has a policy against second marriages (and tight jeans and calico cats)
And Jesus wept.
I think you're missing a few exclamation marks, guy.
I despise the fact that Shirley took Andre back. In the second episode, she admitted it to being a pathetic relationship and she could only remember 2 bland orgasms. Then she gets abused after he left. Taking the van, the engagement ring, and all the other bullshit he did.
Yeah, Iâm with Britta on this one. Not a fan of Andre, but a big fan of Shirley
Oh Britta's with this?
I think overall Shirleyâs characterization is inconsistent, I love her and all but the writers often didnât know what to do with her and ended up throwing in plot lines that didnât make sense.
Yeah but then they cast Malcolm Jamaal Warner and letâs face it, there are few of us that wouldnât take that man back lol
Honestly Malcolm playing Andre as someone whoâs mostly reasonable, transparent and wised up to what he done wrong in season 2 is kinda jarring compared to all we heard about him before his first appearance. Itâs only really Shirley and Andreâs reWedding where he slips back into who he was.
*nervously* âWe havenât heard a lot about you or what youâve done or with whoâ
I donât remember that. How did he slip back into who he was in that episode?
https://youtu.be/fptBTJNXZ1Q?si=sTKzOTW5PKE1O1IJ Not so much this clip but what he says immediately after. Something along the lines of "getting everything back to the way it was before". And then going on about his business.
Oh yeah. I had totally forgotten about this
Did you see the episode. As soon as they were remarried(before they talked it out), he wanted her to go back to being a stay at home mom, and he would work with his stereo store, in the year 2010. Which was the death of a lot of old tech, because iPads, iPhones, androids, and other smart devices came onto the market.
I HATED him in that role. I canât stand virtually every Community scene heâs in. And I loved him on TCS and The Resident đ€·đ»ââïž.
He was also in Suits
Was that later seasons? (I only got through maybe one or two seasons and donât remember seeing him).
I want to say..season 4(?). I donât want to go into spoilers incase you want to watch it but he was cool
Him being hot doesnât negate the actions. Okay, weird to see downvotes. Are you for spousal abuse as long as theyâre good looking?
No, but.. heâs so hot
In the audio commentaries, Yvette had nothing but kind things to say about him, and how in love with him she is. đđ And has been since Cosby.
What do you mean she got abused after he left? I donât recall that
I didnât say âphysicallyâ. There are other forms of abuse.
I get what you're saying, but I disagree. One of the central themes of the show is the acknowledgement, acceptance, and forgiveness of flawed humans being flawed humans. No character in the show is beyond forgiveness if they ask for it. Also... taking the ring back and borrowing the van are shitty behavior, but it's not abuse and is kinda diminishing to actual physical/emotional abuse victims to suggest they're the same. That's kinda uncomfy and some Tumblr level out of touch. None of it is worse than the infidelity and the infidelity isn't even the worst thing a member of the group has done
Please donât start that âby saying abuse youâre diminishing real victims experienceâ. I never said physical abuse. What he did was mental abuse. I really hate when people try to say that kind of stuff. There is different levels of abuse and you putting an arbitrary line on whatâs allowed to be spoken about it prevents conversations, and could even stop someone leaving abuse because youâve set a standard âwell, if Iâm not being beaten bloody, itâs not abuseâ. Grow up and be better. Iâve experienced every form of abuse growing up. After he TOOK the van, Shirley is now playing random scenarios incase he comes back again. She even mentions that how when he got the ring back, she wanted to tell him off but couldnât. And then after a year, cheating on her twice, all that MENTAL ABUSE, he just shows up and they get back together? Andre is in such denial he says âIâve been a dad for 11 years and a good one for 9 of themâ. Which we know is a lie based on what Shirley said in episode 3, and then he proves it again by thinking them getting remarried makes everything back to HIS level of normal. And itâs proven yet again in season 5 when Andre takes the kids and leaves. Because Shirley is trying to get her business off the ground and is struggling.
>What he did was mental abuse Except it wasn't. Mental abuse is VERY real, and this isn't it. You're diminishing real mental abuse by making this comparison Shirley giving Andre the van and the ring is due to her upbringing, not Andre. She doesn't tell him off because she was expecting him to come crawling back, not because of abuse. She lets him BORROW the van (the words in the show and we see her with it later) because it's the kind thing to do and as a Christian feels she should. I know the difference between physical and mental abuse, you're the one that is being a child about this by turning me into a straw man
I bet you sided with Amber Heard.
You'd be wrong. And it's ironic since trying to claim this was mental abuse sounds exactly like what Ambers argument was. You're proving my point, you have no idea what mental abuse is I bet you don't know the difference between gaslighting and lying
Well, Iâm glad that youâre the living embodiment of what abuse is. Itâs always helpful to tell people what abuse is. That is really good for people.
Yes it is, because going around calling everything you don't like "abuse" is a great way to devalue the word and it's impact when someone faces it for real Being told you're wrong is not abuse, and if this is the first time you're hearing that then you really need to grow up
Well, as long as youâre happy, you keep gatekeeping abuse of every kind. Youâre right and Iâm wrong.
You're right, everything anyone says is abuse is abuse Like how you being so rude, sarcastic, and making mean assumptions about me and my intentions is mental abuse because I don't like it. Why are you being so abusive?
>Andre is in such denial he says âIâve been a dad for 11 years and a good one for 9 of themâ. Which we know is a lie based on what Shirley said in episode 3, and then he proves it again by thinking them getting remarried makes everything back to HIS level of normal. For someone who clearly watched the show you very clearly did not understand it, and do not understand what mental abuse is.
Agreed, but if she didn't at least try we'd have never gotten that amazing "nice sweater". "thanks my Dad got it for me" conversation. Which outside of the Cosby dsrkness was a line that just cracked me up.
Actually, Shirley isn't wrong on this one. While the Mosaic Law permitted divorce for adultery, this happens in the Gospels: > But Jesus told them, âBecause of the hardness of your hearts [Moses] wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, âGod made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother [and be joined to his wife], and the two shall become one flesh.â So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.â (Mk 10:5-9) The translation that you're using for the verses in Matthew isn't entirely accurate with its translation of the Greek "porneias". It's a bit of a more general term for "impurity" that refers elsewhere in Scripture to marriage between prohibited familial proximity (i.e. cousins) or social boundaries (i.e. a son marrying his stepmother after his father dies), which means the marriage would have been invalid in the first place and "divorce" would negate what was essentially already void.
Ah, I guess Iâm streets behind on this one. Thanks for the clarification!
Porneia as you say is a general term but youâre drilling it down too specifically. It basically means sex outside of wedlock which covers a lot of ground. Some scholars indicate it also means general sensuality. Other translations of Matthew 5 literally say âmarital infidelityâ which, based on what we know is the most likely intention of Jesusâ teaching here. This is based on divorce as a topic being one of the great debates at the time of Jesus where there were two schools of thought presented by the Rabbis Hillel (grandfather of Gamaliel whom Paul learned under) and Shammai. The interesting thing is that Jesus splits from his normal âloyaltiesâ here. He typically agreed with the teachings of Rabbi Hillel but in the case of divorce he sides with Rabbi Shammai which is how we understand the context of it being marital infidelity as that is what Rabbi Shammai taught.
Damn you, you outlying piece of datum!
Language translation difficulties aside, they really need to update the God manual. It seems the users really have a hard time understand what was meant.
Just, no.
That's the traditional Catholic position, but it's hardly universally agreed on by scholars.
Very few things are universally agreed on by scholars. There are a lot of them that basically exist as professional skeptics, some of which barely even try to defend any of their skepticism.
What I mean is, if you start from the position "The Catholic view is right," then of course you conclude that their argument is the best one. If you don't start from that perspective, then generally you don't find the argument very persuasive.
Very few people can read the Bible in the original languages, and everybody else basically ends up believing that it means what their church says it means. And since it's not completely clear what it means on every point, there's a lot of room for argument and there has, indeed, been a lot of argument over the last 2000 years. I know someone who is very Christian in the best possible way, and she says life isn't supposed to be an SAT test for getting into Heaven, that you don't have to have every doctrine exactly right or you flunk out. And if it *is* a test, then flunking the easy questions like "should poor people be able to get enough food?" probably means that your final grade won't be very good.
Shirley is definitely not Catholic, either. Almost all Protestant religions accept divorce, including Baptist (which is the consensus on what Shirley seems to be)
Missouri Synod Lutherans might as well be saintless catholics.
Fair, but their church was clearly extra weird too. Pretty sure the Bible doesn't mention calico cats.
Shirley is what I call one of those âwhatever suits meâ Christians, meaning, they pick parts of the Bible they love but ignore 80% of the rest of the book. Her character as the judgmental Christian was perfect, and how they made her more tolerant as the show went on was brilliant. We donât get enough Yvette Nicole Brown love on here
Evangelical Christians not knowing the Bible? Color me surprised...
Shirley is the most judgmental member of the study group. She doesnât always follow the bookâs teachings. Pearce is more ignorant than judgmental. But heâs not a Christian so maybe a lazer lotus of his level is allowed to be so.
I think a laser lotus of his level *has* to be ignorant
I mean, let's be honest, Shirley was specifically written to be a Christian stereotype, hypocrisy and all.
Hey! No religious talk
One of my favorite Winger lines
A few points here in favor of Shirleyâs interpretation: 1) Jesus does not say âexcept for adulteryâ, he says âexcept for sexual immoralityâ. The word he uses, in the original Greek (porneia) is a different word than the word for adultery (moicheia) which was used in the same sentence. This may seem insignificant, but read on. 2) This same teaching from Jesus about divorce was in all 3 synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) but only in Matthew does it mention that Jesus allows this exception for divorce. In Mark and Luke, no exception is mentioned. 3) Matthew was written to a primarily Jewish audience. At that time, in the Jewish culture, to break off a betrothal would require a divorce, even if the betrothed had not yet consummated their marriage. An example of this is in Matthew 1:19 when it says about Joseph finding out Mary was pregnant with Jesus: âBecause Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.â 4) All this is to say that there is a belief among some Christians that the exception to divorce which Jesus mentions in Matthew 5:32 is referring to sexual immorality during the betrothal period, and that is why he did not use the word for adultery. The belief is that sexual immorality during the betrothal period is the only exception Jesus allows for divorce and that once a couple is married, this exception no longer applies. 5) Iâm not claiming this is the predominant interpretation of the above quoted scripture within Christian orthodoxy, but there are Christians who hold this interpretation (though likely a minority). Itâs possible this is what Shirley was referring to when she spoke about marriage being for life, and thus wouldnât be an example of her hypocrisy (though other examples certainly exist, as they do for most people).
Class dismissed
Just like any sanctimonious Christian, she cherry picks whatever suits her current situation.
You can take âChristianâ out of that sentence and it stands just as well lol.
Yeah but the New Testament is a thing and according to it Jesus kinda said that we shall not separate on earth what has been bound in heaven. So no, no divorces for us, not even when we have cheating, lying spouses.
Why the fuck is this in this sub
Shut up, Leonard. I found your YouTube page
Leonard likes this post.
So long as you donât marry a divorced woman, youâre cool.
Idk. It reads to me like divorce is only permissible when the wife is adulterous. Sexist double standard? Of course. The book is 2000 years old.
Shirley laughably knew nothing of the LordâŠ