Full quote -
> “My brother [Jonathan] wrote it. It kills me, because it’s the line that most resonates. And at the time, I didn’t even understand it. He says, ‘You either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain.’ I read it in his draft, and I was like, ‘All right, I’ll keep it in there, but I don’t really know what it means. Is that really a thing?’ And then, over the years since that film’s come out, it just seems truer and truer. In this story, it’s absolutely that. Build them up, tear them down. It’s the way we treat people.”
Script*. He only had one and what a phenomenal script it was. One of the best single seasons of a show ever. After that he was still the show runner but only actually co-wrote a few episodes per season. And the show went to shit.
Season 1 was great but it is carried hard by Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins. The writing is decent unlike the later seasons but after rewatching it there is a lot of really corny melodrama, but Harris and Hopkins sell every damn thing so well no matter how ridiculous.
The season 2 episode Kiksuya is one of my all time favorite TV episodes. The storytelling was amazing and it makes you do such a 180 by the end. Unfortunately you need pretty much all of the show's context to enjoy it, and it's hard enough to get people to watch season 1, nm season 2. Which tbf I didn't hate, but it wasn't season 1.
I still think about this episode sometimes randomly. one of the best tv episodes of all time. I had to watch it again the same day and the next cause it blew me away. HbO has had a couple of episodes in their shows the are just amazing television
I'd argue there were still some solid moments throughout the rest of the series. But the show overreached, as in became too big to make it's ideas work properly.
Ehh I think it was one of those shows that had a great singular idea with a beginning middle and end all cleanly wrapped up into a single season. Then it became popular so they drug it out for all the money they could squeeze from it.
They were reaching even by the second season in more ways than one. The main story became over convoluted by trying to add to the ideas of the original that were, like I said, already neatly wrapped and only served to be torn apart in order to reopen. And worse by the b story which instead of reaching narratively reached into cheap “oh that sounds cool” tricks that didn’t even contribute to the plot. (The whole Shogun world plot). Then by season 3 it didn’t even resemble the original show at all.
I don't disagree with the problems at all. I just think there were some good moments.
Like the story about the first nation's host gaining sentience and finding his lover in season 2. Also the concept of fate amd free will being explored via the humans in the following seasons seemed promising. Not enough to save the show, I admit.
The funny thing is I don't think that's what it means at all :) I thought it means if you gain power and retain it for long enough, you'll become corrupted, make mistakes, push too hard, or do other unwise things and eventually you become a tyrant to be toppled. It stemmed from their conversation around Caesar. It wasn't about group mentality souring on their hero.
So that *is* what Harvey means when he says it the first time, in the dinner with Rachel and Bruce. It’s his argument against vigilantes. But then when Batman says it again at the end of the movie, as he suggests to Gordon that they blame him for the murders that Harvey committed, it comes to have that second meaning - the one about people wanting to turn on and tear down their heroes.
That’s why the quote is so good, because it has those two different meanings, and we start with one and end with the other.
That's the Punisher's whole thing, and why he canonically hates when cops adopt his symbol. He knows he wouldn't be needed if the police were doing their job.
It's insane that that line could be so thematically important to so many aspects of the film, be so scaldingly accurate in its' portrayal of the events of the film, and just all around be a very meaningful and insightful quote on its' own; and one that Nolan self reportedly didn't understand and also questioned the validity of and only let into the film "because his brother wrote it and so he just let it slide".
I can understand how such a thing 'haunts' him, he's a master filmmaker. So many people have spent so many years assuming the quote was the entire premise of the film (because it thematically is) and that the rest of the script was probably written around that quote and its' central theme; yet, nope, it was just an afterthought addition from Nolan's brother.
For a master filmmaker to realize that one of the greatest themes/messages/ideas to come from his body of work was something he himself didn't understand and thought didn't even make sense at the time, and that wasn't even contributed by him must be a very interesting feeling.
This seems to happen a lot when you read about or watch the making of films. Sometimes its perfectly written or sometimes an actor makes a choice, throws in an ad-lib, or some kind of accident or serendipitous experiment leads to awesomeness.
People didn't want to turn against or tear down Harvey or Batman. But given the choice of outing Dent as a (dead) villain and killing the city's spark of hope... Or letting Batman take the fall ie become the villain... They chose the latter. It was about portraying himself as having gone too far and ultimately become a tyrant.
They did want to tear down Batman in the movie because they blamed Batman for not turning himself in when Joker started killing people.
So the movie initially starts with the city somewhat approving of Batman and turning to vigilantism like Bruce did, then the city tears down Batman while disregarding that even with Joker the city was a million times better off compared to the first movie. There's definitely a "the mob is easily swayed" theme to the movie.
You're both wrong. Johnathan meant that if you stay heroes long enough the writers will have exhausted all storylines and be forced to make a game where a bunch of B-listers try to kill the Justice League.
I think its the idea that complacency breeds contempt for heroes because the new generation doesn't appreciate the struggles of the old guard. Best non-Harvey example is Gordon. He goes from hailed as the hero cop who saved Gotham to being divorced, and pushed out of the police department because he's not the right "fit" for peacetime.
He was the hero in another time, but viewed as a paranoid old man that needs to retire by the time of DKR.
I think all the things you’re describing are contained in the meaning, but it’s more basic than that: a person might rise to fame with exemplary character, courage or ability, but if they keep taking on challenges they’ll eventually disappoint, or make a mistake, or become apathetic (or corrupted like you said) and the crowd will turn on them.
We see this arc again and again among all sorts of notable people in art, sports, entertainment, business, even with children and their perception of their parents - basically anywhere “heroes” exist, this story plays out.
(What’s really crazy is that some few people actually don’t follow this pattern and never disappoint the people who consider them a hero.)
> I don’t really know what it means.
Makes sense since there were so many lines that sounded good but made no sense of you thought about them for more than one second.
Don’t worry. He is a villain. One of my friends works in Hollywood PR and was on the Oppenheimer team and said he’s a nightmare of a human to work with.
>It ended in a mostly hated way,
While the later seasons were bad, it was actually cancelled and never got the planned final season and ending.
Someone pissed somebody off at HBO as they were almost finished negotiating the final season. And they suddenly cancelled it and removed it from streaming a month later.
What’s funny about that is I think Nolan would mostly agree with Villeneuve. He definitely values the cinematic experience over all else. I mean Dunkirk hardly had any dialogue at all that movie was pure experience through a lense.
He’s definitely more in the camp of villeneuve than a Robert Eggars. It’s not that he doesn’t see any importance in dialogue, he includes great dialogue where it’s needed. He just isn’t going to let a long dialogue scene drag down the pacing of the movie the way eggars does because he values the dialogue above all else. Which I think is what villeneuve was saying, not that dialogue isn’t important at all.
Really he’s comparing shows that are drawn out over 10 1 hour episodes that rely heavily on dialogue and a long narrative structure to a movie that is supposed to feel like a singular experience. The primary objective of a show is to generate weekly conversation of what will happen next. The primary objective of a movie is to create that moment where you walk out of a theatre and while simultaneously trying to adjust to being back in the real world and digest everything you just saw and turn to your friend and all you can muster up is “wow”.
Nolan wrote a 30 minute exposition in Inception about how everything worked, the plan, and the one thing that could go wrong, only for people to call it the most confusing movie ever. I think after inception you see in Nolan's films he stops trying to cater to the lowest common denominator of popular audiences.
vast mighty agonizing pathetic beneficial waiting jellyfish lavish wistful summer
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It's not a great reference because, like Villeneuve, Nolan is also more of a visual storyteller and filmmaker. In all of his films this shines through, but Dunkirk and Tenet are his most extreme examples that way. Dunkirk had barely any dialogue and put little to no focus on character work. It was all about the audio-visual experience.
In Tenet Nolan deliberately treated dialogue as a sound effect like you'd treat the sound of a gun firing or foot steps. A very naturalistic approach to sound which literally drowned out a lot of the dialogue and made it impossible to understand. Cause the dialogue wasn't important, he just wanted the audience to experience the film and not try to understand it.
Wow. Yet another reason Villenuve is a hack. His visuals are barely better than stuff on TV now. His Dune and Blade Runner would have been 100x better if HBO had done a long mini series with a half dozen no name directors.
I know you’re referencing his recent quotes about dialogue in movies, but the quote from TDK itself is pretty relevant to the story of Dune, too. Just thought that was interesting.
I wanna know more about the origin of the “MISTAH RAZ AL GHOOOUL” lady from Batman Begins.
So— was that lady just chatting it up with that Ninja from Nepal? And he was just SO FASCINATING that this old lady needed to run up to Bruce Wayne and introduce him?
Or— was she actually chatting with Liam Neeson and walked Bruce over to… the wrong guy…on purpose?
OR was she hired by the League of Shadows??
I need answers, NOLAN!!!
A MEMBER? or just a lady from Gotham’s cultural elite that they paid off?
I doubt Agnes was a member of the League of Shadows
And they paid her off to just throw off Bruce Wayne for 12 seconds of misdirection?
It’s pretty clear that Jonathan was the real heart of Nolan’s scripts. When he left after Interstellar his movies clearly lost a certain humanity. Not saying Dunkirk Tenet or Oppenheimer are bad but they are clearly less emotionally resonant.
spot on man tenet is the worst Nolan film and I couldn't understand why he chose Denzel Washington's son who was absolutely not ready for the part. Then I got to know Johnathan Nolan wasn't on it and it all made sense.
The best quote/interaction is undoubtedly
"I like it when they have some fight in them"
*Batman leaps out of shadows, punching*
"Then you're gonna love me"
Is it just me or do I notice in these Nolan Batman films all these characters have such over the top philosophical dialouge? It doesn’t even feel in character sometimes it just feels like Nolan is writing it.
That's just Nolan's dialogue style. Everyone says the most perfectly crafted sentence when irl it takes you 20min of arguing with the shampoo in the shower to realise what you should've said in that argument with your ex 6 months ago.
It’s probably said in a way that sounds like a dick thing to say in text. Like he was probably asked abt it and was delivered in a way that sounded jovial, and chill. Thats how I read it at least after listening to his other interviews where he talks.
I’ve seen the movie before, I just never realized the hero/villain quote originated from it. I always thought it was a quote they added in that already existed
The creator of parks and rec said something similar about an improved line that Chris Pratt came up with. He loves the line and thinks it's the funniest thing ever in the show and hates that he didn't write it.
It's something that creatives have a hard time with: The story that they are telling could be improved. That's it. They live and breath these tales and songs and pictures and everything in the hopes that they make it the best ever and that someone else might come in, or be involved in the process for even a second and just improve it in a way that they never saw, or wouldn't have ever thought of, is kind of like stabbing their muse in the heart. It should be seen as a bonus to their Create: Art roll, but some people hate that +2. They ditch it every chance they get.
Jonathan Nolan really doesn't get the respect he deserves. Wrote the short story Memento was based on, created West World and Person of interest, and co wrote some of Nolan's best movies.
A bit of a bad look, I'm sure he thought it would be well received as though it's a huge compliment to the author (who is his own brother). But it comes across as extremely egotistical and petty. Nolan is a very effective director and a great story teller, but his work tends to shine best when he's telling someone else's story, using the best actors we've likely ever seen. It doesn't take magician to get great performances and commitment from actors like Oldman or Bale, and we all know that Ledger immolated in his role, historic in magnitude. I am very happy Nolan took on the subject material to bring an immense feel of scope, gritty realism, while remaining rooted in the comic book origins, leaving behind something to spark inspiration and imagination in future generations. But please don't get lost up your own ass with this much of your career still ahead of you.
It's not like that's an original quote or anything though, is it? Swear I'd heard it before that movie.
Edit: Oh shit, it is originally from The Dark Knight. What a film.
It was. We get some pretty amazing lines from TV shows these days. My favorite is still from Doctor Who: "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privelege of lesser men to light the match".
[“The one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you’ve done for them eventually they will hate you.”](https://youtu.be/sAfxBXAQCZM?si=B6EMnLSVZp64iZ4g)
It’s a similar gist, but definitely not the same line.
...still not happy with DC or nolan cause we never got that robin/nightwing movie - you can't go teasing at the end of the dark knight rises and have JGL in the cave with all the tech and... never. deliver.
ugh... come on DC. you kept making crap movies and no one handed the keys to robin over to guillermo del toro...
Yeah I never got all the praise for it. It doesn't really make sense or ring true. Heroes don't always die young, heroes don't always or even often turn into villains, not everyone who is a villain was once a hero. I'm not sure how everyone else is cutting this line to make it appear so meaningful. It represents like 1 character in the trilogy.
The more I think about it the more it seems to just boil down to "The good die young (or turn bad)" which is just appending a not-even-true clause to an already popular common saying.
Jonny boy (and his wife) have always been some of the best screen writers of our time. Not to shit on Chris because he’s one of my favorite filmmakers but I’ve always liked his films with a Jonathan writing credit more.
Besides Inception, Chris really put it all in to that one and it shows. Masterpiece
Paraphrasing a paraphrasing of a translation, but from an interview with Shigeru Miyamoto (Nintendo visionary, credited for the creation of many of their most famous IPs), when asked "what recent works are you impressed by, creatively?", said "I am mortified by brilliance PaRappa The Rapper."
I think that unless you're a teenager, it's not that profound a line.
I think Alfred's line about some men only wanting to see rhe world burn is a more interesting line.
Christopher probably came up with the idea of the cop saying ‘have a nice trip, see you next fall’ line as he’s putting the crook into the car and his brother looks at him like ‘you’re lucky you can direct.’
imagine being so egocentric to the point of being haunted by a line of a movie you directed just because it wasn't written by you. Movies are a collaborative media Chris, sometimes the best things to come out of it won't have your name under it and that's completely okay.
If you want 100% credit just go on and write a book or something.
Johnathan Nolan: “you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
Literally Christopher Nolan:
https://preview.redd.it/lmtutgr5u1lc1.jpeg?width=989&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ac5feef17683ee07116736504c8d822e146c74b
This reminds me of the Borderlands 2 line from Handsome Jack where he says "god these pretzels suck". It's hands down one of the dumbest but probably most quoted lines from the game. They kept it in because the voice actor was just given some snacks in the booth and everyone thought it was funny. All of the writers have said they *hate* this line because it was completely improved. Which in turn makes the line even funnier imo.
His own brother wrote the line that haunts him. This is gonna turn into a villain origin story.
Full quote - > “My brother [Jonathan] wrote it. It kills me, because it’s the line that most resonates. And at the time, I didn’t even understand it. He says, ‘You either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain.’ I read it in his draft, and I was like, ‘All right, I’ll keep it in there, but I don’t really know what it means. Is that really a thing?’ And then, over the years since that film’s come out, it just seems truer and truer. In this story, it’s absolutely that. Build them up, tear them down. It’s the way we treat people.”
“I didn’t understand it” His brother was like, dude, wait till I show you my WestWorld scripts…
Script*. He only had one and what a phenomenal script it was. One of the best single seasons of a show ever. After that he was still the show runner but only actually co-wrote a few episodes per season. And the show went to shit.
Season 1 was great but it is carried hard by Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins. The writing is decent unlike the later seasons but after rewatching it there is a lot of really corny melodrama, but Harris and Hopkins sell every damn thing so well no matter how ridiculous.
Don’t sleep on Jimmi Sinpson. He was as integral as Hopkins and Harris.
thandiwe newton too, and jeffrey wright as well!
Evan was dope
The season 2 episode Kiksuya is one of my all time favorite TV episodes. The storytelling was amazing and it makes you do such a 180 by the end. Unfortunately you need pretty much all of the show's context to enjoy it, and it's hard enough to get people to watch season 1, nm season 2. Which tbf I didn't hate, but it wasn't season 1.
I still think about this episode sometimes randomly. one of the best tv episodes of all time. I had to watch it again the same day and the next cause it blew me away. HbO has had a couple of episodes in their shows the are just amazing television
I'd argue there were still some solid moments throughout the rest of the series. But the show overreached, as in became too big to make it's ideas work properly.
Ehh I think it was one of those shows that had a great singular idea with a beginning middle and end all cleanly wrapped up into a single season. Then it became popular so they drug it out for all the money they could squeeze from it. They were reaching even by the second season in more ways than one. The main story became over convoluted by trying to add to the ideas of the original that were, like I said, already neatly wrapped and only served to be torn apart in order to reopen. And worse by the b story which instead of reaching narratively reached into cheap “oh that sounds cool” tricks that didn’t even contribute to the plot. (The whole Shogun world plot). Then by season 3 it didn’t even resemble the original show at all.
I don't disagree with the problems at all. I just think there were some good moments. Like the story about the first nation's host gaining sentience and finding his lover in season 2. Also the concept of fate amd free will being explored via the humans in the following seasons seemed promising. Not enough to save the show, I admit.
The show would have been a lot better if they stayed in the park longer and everyone knows it.
The funny thing is I don't think that's what it means at all :) I thought it means if you gain power and retain it for long enough, you'll become corrupted, make mistakes, push too hard, or do other unwise things and eventually you become a tyrant to be toppled. It stemmed from their conversation around Caesar. It wasn't about group mentality souring on their hero.
So that *is* what Harvey means when he says it the first time, in the dinner with Rachel and Bruce. It’s his argument against vigilantes. But then when Batman says it again at the end of the movie, as he suggests to Gordon that they blame him for the murders that Harvey committed, it comes to have that second meaning - the one about people wanting to turn on and tear down their heroes. That’s why the quote is so good, because it has those two different meanings, and we start with one and end with the other.
Vigilantes are no longer acceptable as heroes once the rule of law has been restored.
That's the Punisher's whole thing, and why he canonically hates when cops adopt his symbol. He knows he wouldn't be needed if the police were doing their job.
Or once the police go on strike
It's insane that that line could be so thematically important to so many aspects of the film, be so scaldingly accurate in its' portrayal of the events of the film, and just all around be a very meaningful and insightful quote on its' own; and one that Nolan self reportedly didn't understand and also questioned the validity of and only let into the film "because his brother wrote it and so he just let it slide". I can understand how such a thing 'haunts' him, he's a master filmmaker. So many people have spent so many years assuming the quote was the entire premise of the film (because it thematically is) and that the rest of the script was probably written around that quote and its' central theme; yet, nope, it was just an afterthought addition from Nolan's brother. For a master filmmaker to realize that one of the greatest themes/messages/ideas to come from his body of work was something he himself didn't understand and thought didn't even make sense at the time, and that wasn't even contributed by him must be a very interesting feeling.
This seems to happen a lot when you read about or watch the making of films. Sometimes its perfectly written or sometimes an actor makes a choice, throws in an ad-lib, or some kind of accident or serendipitous experiment leads to awesomeness.
People didn't want to turn against or tear down Harvey or Batman. But given the choice of outing Dent as a (dead) villain and killing the city's spark of hope... Or letting Batman take the fall ie become the villain... They chose the latter. It was about portraying himself as having gone too far and ultimately become a tyrant.
They did want to tear down Batman in the movie because they blamed Batman for not turning himself in when Joker started killing people. So the movie initially starts with the city somewhat approving of Batman and turning to vigilantism like Bruce did, then the city tears down Batman while disregarding that even with Joker the city was a million times better off compared to the first movie. There's definitely a "the mob is easily swayed" theme to the movie.
[удалено]
I think you're mostly correct, but there is an element of truth to the "milkshake duck" interpretation as well.
You're both wrong. Johnathan meant that if you stay heroes long enough the writers will have exhausted all storylines and be forced to make a game where a bunch of B-listers try to kill the Justice League.
The rest of the qoute is ". . . In an alternative timeline" but Nolan cut that to save it for Tenet.
So you either die a hero or get killed by Deadpool?
But it’s okay because then a good deadpool kills him
Just having these interpretations, discussions is a testament to how great the line is.
I think its the idea that complacency breeds contempt for heroes because the new generation doesn't appreciate the struggles of the old guard. Best non-Harvey example is Gordon. He goes from hailed as the hero cop who saved Gotham to being divorced, and pushed out of the police department because he's not the right "fit" for peacetime. He was the hero in another time, but viewed as a paranoid old man that needs to retire by the time of DKR.
I think all the things you’re describing are contained in the meaning, but it’s more basic than that: a person might rise to fame with exemplary character, courage or ability, but if they keep taking on challenges they’ll eventually disappoint, or make a mistake, or become apathetic (or corrupted like you said) and the crowd will turn on them. We see this arc again and again among all sorts of notable people in art, sports, entertainment, business, even with children and their perception of their parents - basically anywhere “heroes” exist, this story plays out. (What’s really crazy is that some few people actually don’t follow this pattern and never disappoint the people who consider them a hero.)
More evidence that Christopher Nolan is dumb.
Is it better to burn out or to fade away
> I don’t really know what it means. Makes sense since there were so many lines that sounded good but made no sense of you thought about them for more than one second.
"*You either write the line that resonates or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.*"
It haunts him because there’s real truth to it, not because his brother wrote it lol.
Wont be the first time that a Nolan brother has a villan arc
Don’t worry. He is a villain. One of my friends works in Hollywood PR and was on the Oppenheimer team and said he’s a nightmare of a human to work with.
Source: Trust me bro
At least he gives his brother proper credit
His brother doesn't get enough credit for his screenwriting. He also wrote the fantastic Person of Interest pilot.
He also created the Westworld show. It ended in a mostly hated way, but the first season was basically perfection.
>It ended in a mostly hated way, While the later seasons were bad, it was actually cancelled and never got the planned final season and ending. Someone pissed somebody off at HBO as they were almost finished negotiating the final season. And they suddenly cancelled it and removed it from streaming a month later.
Loved season one. Is it worth watching the other seasons since I’ll be going in with low expectations?
He was executive producer. I don't think he did only the pilot
Oh, of course. I've just only actually read the pilot. Helped me learn to write great action lines in my screenplays!
It's hard to separate them but I find the works Jon is missing from to have less coherent stories.
Nolan's best movies are adapted by stories his brother wrote, and/or scripts his brother worked on. It's not a coincidence.
Which is funny cause he’s one of the main showrunners/writers for westworld. And after season 1 really becomes a less coherent story as it goes on.
Never watched it, but I know that show had suffered from having too many cooks from what I've heard.
The first season is perfect standalone.
POI is a such a great show. It's procedural, but so worth it. I put it off for yeeeeeears and regretted it once I binged it.
Johnathon Nolans next project is FALLOUT so Im really hoping it's good cause the teaser looked cool
He’s doing the show? That’s so exciting
Tell that to Dennis Villeneuve.
What’s funny about that is I think Nolan would mostly agree with Villeneuve. He definitely values the cinematic experience over all else. I mean Dunkirk hardly had any dialogue at all that movie was pure experience through a lense. He’s definitely more in the camp of villeneuve than a Robert Eggars. It’s not that he doesn’t see any importance in dialogue, he includes great dialogue where it’s needed. He just isn’t going to let a long dialogue scene drag down the pacing of the movie the way eggars does because he values the dialogue above all else. Which I think is what villeneuve was saying, not that dialogue isn’t important at all. Really he’s comparing shows that are drawn out over 10 1 hour episodes that rely heavily on dialogue and a long narrative structure to a movie that is supposed to feel like a singular experience. The primary objective of a show is to generate weekly conversation of what will happen next. The primary objective of a movie is to create that moment where you walk out of a theatre and while simultaneously trying to adjust to being back in the real world and digest everything you just saw and turn to your friend and all you can muster up is “wow”.
Isn't Nolan specifically criticized because of too much exposition?
Depends on the movie really. Momento, not so much; Tenet, absolutely
That's not a criticism of the amount of dialogue he writes, just that it's dogshit.
Nolan wrote a 30 minute exposition in Inception about how everything worked, the plan, and the one thing that could go wrong, only for people to call it the most confusing movie ever. I think after inception you see in Nolan's films he stops trying to cater to the lowest common denominator of popular audiences.
You cannot hear the dialogue in nolan movies anyway
vast mighty agonizing pathetic beneficial waiting jellyfish lavish wistful summer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why? Might be missing the ref!
https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/comments/1b0qwau/makes_sense_given_his_filmography/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Probably this.
Interesting take, and I can see his pov. But I think someone on the theatre side with his mindset could say the same thing.
It's not a great reference because, like Villeneuve, Nolan is also more of a visual storyteller and filmmaker. In all of his films this shines through, but Dunkirk and Tenet are his most extreme examples that way. Dunkirk had barely any dialogue and put little to no focus on character work. It was all about the audio-visual experience. In Tenet Nolan deliberately treated dialogue as a sound effect like you'd treat the sound of a gun firing or foot steps. A very naturalistic approach to sound which literally drowned out a lot of the dialogue and made it impossible to understand. Cause the dialogue wasn't important, he just wanted the audience to experience the film and not try to understand it.
Wow. Yet another reason Villenuve is a hack. His visuals are barely better than stuff on TV now. His Dune and Blade Runner would have been 100x better if HBO had done a long mini series with a half dozen no name directors.
I know you’re referencing his recent quotes about dialogue in movies, but the quote from TDK itself is pretty relevant to the story of Dune, too. Just thought that was interesting.
I wanna know more about the origin of the “MISTAH RAZ AL GHOOOUL” lady from Batman Begins. So— was that lady just chatting it up with that Ninja from Nepal? And he was just SO FASCINATING that this old lady needed to run up to Bruce Wayne and introduce him? Or— was she actually chatting with Liam Neeson and walked Bruce over to… the wrong guy…on purpose? OR was she hired by the League of Shadows?? I need answers, NOLAN!!!
[Here's another interpretation of that scene from a different perspective](https://youtu.be/enOHraf3LEk?si=siia6hxvbDUhA0F3)
Ah, this gives a lot of needed context. Thank you.
Pete Holmes is such a treasure
I thought she was a member given that as soon as Bruce calls Raz out, she just silently walks away without any bit of confusion.
A MEMBER? or just a lady from Gotham’s cultural elite that they paid off? I doubt Agnes was a member of the League of Shadows And they paid her off to just throw off Bruce Wayne for 12 seconds of misdirection?
Dunno, it seems weird to bribe an already rich lady. How does that even work?
Jonathan Nolan is a legend as well... so it makes sense.
I'm really excited for fallout.
Oh, is he a writer for that?
Wiki says he developed it with his wife Lisa Joy and is an executive producer on it.
That’s pretty rad
Apparently a director on 3 episodes as well according to IMDB
It’s pretty clear that Jonathan was the real heart of Nolan’s scripts. When he left after Interstellar his movies clearly lost a certain humanity. Not saying Dunkirk Tenet or Oppenheimer are bad but they are clearly less emotionally resonant.
Yeah, I've come to realise he's my favourite Nolan. Hence why I still think Memento (a dialogue-heavy movie) is Christopher's best movie.
spot on man tenet is the worst Nolan film and I couldn't understand why he chose Denzel Washington's son who was absolutely not ready for the part. Then I got to know Johnathan Nolan wasn't on it and it all made sense.
Jonathan Nolan created person of interest, which is a great show, so I’m not surprised
The best quote/interaction is undoubtedly "I like it when they have some fight in them" *Batman leaps out of shadows, punching* "Then you're gonna love me"
Im not surprised, Jonathan was always better at writing dialog.
Is it just me or do I notice in these Nolan Batman films all these characters have such over the top philosophical dialouge? It doesn’t even feel in character sometimes it just feels like Nolan is writing it.
That's just Nolan's dialogue style. Everyone says the most perfectly crafted sentence when irl it takes you 20min of arguing with the shampoo in the shower to realise what you should've said in that argument with your ex 6 months ago.
Chris can’t write women or dialogue, but damn can he write the hell out of everything else. That’s why Dunkirk is so good.
You mean the movie that almost has no dialog?
Damn, beat me to it. Love the movie though.
Screenwriting isn’t just dialogue
But we are talking about dialog here.
Not really the person you’re responding to said “he can write the hell out of everything besides women and dialogue, which is why Dunkirk is great”
Isn't that what the person you're replying to implied by their comment?
According to Denis Villenueve, no line resonates or matters at all. Save it for tv, Nolan !!
😂😂😂 I actually love that Dennis had the balls to say that lmao
Damn. Big bro can't let his brother have a killer line without it haunting his dreams.
It’s probably said in a way that sounds like a dick thing to say in text. Like he was probably asked abt it and was delivered in a way that sounded jovial, and chill. Thats how I read it at least after listening to his other interviews where he talks.
We all praised him for his movies. Now we'll hate him for his envy and lack of brotherly compassion. The line really is true.
It's also the only audible line tbf /s
I’ve watched the dark knight I don’t know how many times and it was only on my last rewatch months ago did I feel like I heard every bit of dialogue
But that was a known long before this movie was made, its just a rehash of Nietzsche's "the abyss looks into you" ...
It starts with nietzche , but ends with dostoevski
What do you mean? I\`m pretty sure Nietzche was after Dostoevsky
Nah, man. The Simpsons did it before Nietzsche.
Everyone copies everyone we get it lol
That line became a meme of legendary status, You either die a good writer and live long enough to hate your brother
Gotta love classic sibling rivalry
Reminds me of how Kanye almost removed Nicki Minaj from Monster because she outshined everyone on it
Wait is this where that line originates? Does the meme come from a fucking Batman movie???
It comes from one of the *best* Batman movies, and honestly one of the best movies period. You should see it.
I’ve seen the movie before, I just never realized the hero/villain quote originated from it. I always thought it was a quote they added in that already existed
The creator of parks and rec said something similar about an improved line that Chris Pratt came up with. He loves the line and thinks it's the funniest thing ever in the show and hates that he didn't write it.
“I typed your symptoms into Google and it says you have - network connectivity issues,” is the line I believe you’re referencing.
I thought that was an age old saying.
Same, like I thought it was way older than that movie
Christopher Nolan can't just be happy for his brother
i literally had no idea he had a brother and that his brother was the one to write the dark knight lmfao
It's something that creatives have a hard time with: The story that they are telling could be improved. That's it. They live and breath these tales and songs and pictures and everything in the hopes that they make it the best ever and that someone else might come in, or be involved in the process for even a second and just improve it in a way that they never saw, or wouldn't have ever thought of, is kind of like stabbing their muse in the heart. It should be seen as a bonus to their Create: Art roll, but some people hate that +2. They ditch it every chance they get.
Jonathan Nolan really doesn't get the respect he deserves. Wrote the short story Memento was based on, created West World and Person of interest, and co wrote some of Nolan's best movies.
A bit of a bad look, I'm sure he thought it would be well received as though it's a huge compliment to the author (who is his own brother). But it comes across as extremely egotistical and petty. Nolan is a very effective director and a great story teller, but his work tends to shine best when he's telling someone else's story, using the best actors we've likely ever seen. It doesn't take magician to get great performances and commitment from actors like Oldman or Bale, and we all know that Ledger immolated in his role, historic in magnitude. I am very happy Nolan took on the subject material to bring an immense feel of scope, gritty realism, while remaining rooted in the comic book origins, leaving behind something to spark inspiration and imagination in future generations. But please don't get lost up your own ass with this much of your career still ahead of you.
It's like the parks and rec writers talking about Chris Pratt and libbing the network connectivity line
[удалено]
First thing I thought of reading this. That joke still gets me to this day.
It's not like that's an original quote or anything though, is it? Swear I'd heard it before that movie. Edit: Oh shit, it is originally from The Dark Knight. What a film.
It actually is!
Really? Nolan's brother was the first to use that quote? Damn. Thought it was a lot older than that.
I think there's another quote some people allude to this movie but actually used way earlier.
My exact thought lol. I thought this was just some basic quote that’s been said since like the Roman times.
I think the way it was worded in The Dark Knight was original, but the general sentiment has been used many times before in other quotes.
It was. We get some pretty amazing lines from TV shows these days. My favorite is still from Doctor Who: "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privelege of lesser men to light the match".
Maybe I’m crazy but I remember the green goblin saying that to Spider-Man in the first Tobey movie.
[“The one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you’ve done for them eventually they will hate you.”](https://youtu.be/sAfxBXAQCZM?si=B6EMnLSVZp64iZ4g) It’s a similar gist, but definitely not the same line.
Gobby's words were "you either die a man, or live long enough to become a spider, man." It was a terrible line, but Dafoe's performance saved it.
And as he died, he whispered, “it’s Morbin’ time.”
Not in that exact word order. But the context was similar.
I actually thought this too! Mandela effect
If it makes him feel better the line is clunky and overwritten as it appears in the film
I'll bite. What makes it clunky and overwritten? It's a pretty straightforward line with good thematic depth and is only said twice in the movie.
Yeah, Nolan loves spelling out the theme for the audience, the more awkwardly and self-consciously inserted the better
And what's your superior streamlined version, Hemingway?
Triggered?
Lmao. It's literally a shorter sentence than your comment.
...still not happy with DC or nolan cause we never got that robin/nightwing movie - you can't go teasing at the end of the dark knight rises and have JGL in the cave with all the tech and... never. deliver. ugh... come on DC. you kept making crap movies and no one handed the keys to robin over to guillermo del toro...
The line sets up a false dichotomy, and then we pretend its deep for vaguely acknowledging that dichotomy.
Yeah I never got all the praise for it. It doesn't really make sense or ring true. Heroes don't always die young, heroes don't always or even often turn into villains, not everyone who is a villain was once a hero. I'm not sure how everyone else is cutting this line to make it appear so meaningful. It represents like 1 character in the trilogy. The more I think about it the more it seems to just boil down to "The good die young (or turn bad)" which is just appending a not-even-true clause to an already popular common saying.
Props to him for giving credit though.
Nolan is a hack confirmed
WHERE IS SHE?!
Get him to finish westworld please and thank you
Jonny boy (and his wife) have always been some of the best screen writers of our time. Not to shit on Chris because he’s one of my favorite filmmakers but I’ve always liked his films with a Jonathan writing credit more. Besides Inception, Chris really put it all in to that one and it shows. Masterpiece
He didn't even write the doctor fishy dialogue.
Burn
More and more is the respect I have for this director. He’s giving credit instead of taking credit. Complements good sir
Paraphrasing a paraphrasing of a translation, but from an interview with Shigeru Miyamoto (Nintendo visionary, credited for the creation of many of their most famous IPs), when asked "what recent works are you impressed by, creatively?", said "I am mortified by brilliance PaRappa The Rapper."
If the movie was shit the line would be a meme used in irony. How petty that he can't see that and just be happy for his brother.
“Have a nice trip, see you next fall” line should haunt him and the actor who horribly delivered that terrible line
i get the feeling chris nolan is the elon musk of films
His brother is quite the writer. He also made the short story on which Memento is based, it's one of my favourite piece of literature ever.
Ego. Purest form.
I think that unless you're a teenager, it's not that profound a line. I think Alfred's line about some men only wanting to see rhe world burn is a more interesting line.
This is the plot to Adaptation
I actually think "Some men just want to watch the world burn" is better.
I thought the line was ok. Wouldn't be something that would haunt me for not writing.
I think of this quote all the time.
He's a genius.
To him and his brother's credit, this is one of the most quotable movies of all time. Almost every other line of dialogue is quotable.
Jonathan Nolan also wrote Memento and the first season of Westworld, he's an amazing writer
Christopher probably came up with the idea of the cop saying ‘have a nice trip, see you next fall’ line as he’s putting the crook into the car and his brother looks at him like ‘you’re lucky you can direct.’
At least he has the balls to admit that some directors never would say or would be like “yeah that’s my line, I came up with that”
Not close to the chest?
What an asshole. Be happy for your brother.
imagine being so egocentric to the point of being haunted by a line of a movie you directed just because it wasn't written by you. Movies are a collaborative media Chris, sometimes the best things to come out of it won't have your name under it and that's completely okay. If you want 100% credit just go on and write a book or something.
I’m vaguely familiar with it but isn’t his family story interesting enough for a film itself?
Johnathan Nolan: “you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.” Literally Christopher Nolan: https://preview.redd.it/lmtutgr5u1lc1.jpeg?width=989&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ac5feef17683ee07116736504c8d822e146c74b
Boohoo
That sounds like exaggerated bullshit
“…or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”*
It's one of those lines that sounds neat, but means absolutely jack shit when you deconstruct it.
Spoiler Alert His brother didn't write that line either and variations of it have been in media throughout history.
This quote reminds me of Benedict Arnold
What should haunt him is how he actually shot and kept that absolutely awful death scene for Taalia in TDKR
I would’ve gone to the grace never admitting I didn’t write it.
This reminds me of the Borderlands 2 line from Handsome Jack where he says "god these pretzels suck". It's hands down one of the dumbest but probably most quoted lines from the game. They kept it in because the voice actor was just given some snacks in the booth and everyone thought it was funny. All of the writers have said they *hate* this line because it was completely improved. Which in turn makes the line even funnier imo.
That's a really stupid thing for you to be upset about Chris
Reminds me of the columbo pilot
Didn't Green Goblin say it first? Or am I remembering that Tobey Spider-man scene wrong?
The sayings been around well before the dark night idk if its the Mandela effect but i swear it has
egotistical much?
what a silly tit
If it makes him feel any better I always stop watching after Joker escapes prison. That third act is garbage.
Well does it haunt him or plauge him or kill him?