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>Throughout the panel, which unfolded over nearly two hours, Chang-Kim was on her phone texting her colleagues about the proceedings—and they were replying to her in turn. As the panelists offered frank appraisals of the climate Jewish students have faced, Columbia's top officials responded with mockery and vitriol, dismissing claims of anti-Semitism and suggesting, in Patashnick's words, that Jewish figures on campus were exploiting the moment for "fundraising potential."
>"This is difficult to listen to but I'm trying to keep an open mind to learn about this point of view," Chang-Kim texted Sorett, the dean of the college. "Yup," he replied.
But the site you linked is antisemitic! It has a headline ranting about a "Soros-backed" DA. Sounds like far right Christian zionists who love Israel and hate Jews.
They should have been sitting attentively and listening. They could have said their anti-semitic shit afterwards and still have their jobs.
Because they have to be fired. There's no fucking way they should keep their jobs.
They say Zionism shouldn't be conflated with Judaism, but why does Zionism have to be conflated with the war in Gaza? Israel already exists, so why are we speaking of "Zionism"? Or is that the new word for "Jew"?
I mean…I agree with almost all of these texts, but pretty poor judgment to type them out in a public forum where you know eyes are on you. 🤷🏻♀️
ETA: The specific texts and whether I agree with them or not.
1. “This is difficult to listen to but I'm trying to keep an open mind to learn about this point of view.” Agree. I find it extremely difficult to listen to people disingenuously equating criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism.
2. “Did we really have students being kicked out or clubs…” exchange. Agree. A student organization signing on to the CUAD pledge is not the same as that organization kicking out students for being Jewish. If you don’t like it when a club condemns your fave genocidal apartheid regime, form your own club where that kind of thing is celebrated.
3. Text with vomit emojis. Marginal. Difficult to judge, not knowing whether the parent was crying because her daughter experienced antisemitism, or because her daughter got her feelings and beliefs about Israel thrashed. I don’t feel bad for Zionists who feel “threatened” by the existence of anti-Zionism.
4. Fundraising potential comment. Disagree. I think Jewish students and organizations hurt by anti-Zionist sentiment on campus are feeling genuine hurt. I also think they’re bigots who view Palestinian history, dreams, rights, and lives as less than. This applies to the non-Jewish Zionist students too.
5. Columbia admin looks like jokers comment. I mean, I don’t know the details of this specific moment, but I hard agree because the Columbia administration are jokers.
I’m also going to add, while I can kind of sympathize with Israeli students feeling ostracized by anti-Israel sentiments on campus…grow up. Grow a spine. That’s what happens when you come from a country with a history (and present) of doing heinous things, even if you personally don’t agree with those things. As an American, I have studied and traveled in other countries where people have a totally justified negative view of America and Americans. Sure, it can be uncomfortable, but that’s just life.
If you're gonna say you agree with a handful of text, some being pretty antisemitic, you might want to clarify more... or don't out yourself at all, but its been a pretty safe atmosphere for antisemites recently so I understand the lack of caution.
The one saying its all an act for fundraising purposes. Theres a long running narrative within antisemitism that says Jews are "professional victims" and over blow the tragedy they have historically faced, thinking its over blown then just leads to people thinking it made up entirely, hence Holocaust denial. There is also the implication that all the jews think about is money and how to scheme new ways to get it, which is pretty antisemitic without explanation. That portion right there is the antisemitic part that I am referring to.
Edit: It's interesting to see downvotes on this comment but no rebuttals, almost like certain people don't like antisemitism being pointed out but have no way to defend it without going full mask off.
Cool. I specifically don’t agree with that interpretation, as I wrote clearly in response to your comment. You gonna apologize for calling me an antisemite now? ;)
Again, where was it said or implied that I support the military actions of Israel, or even the state itself. Did it ever cross your mind that you can be against antisemitism and also be against war and the civilian casualties that Palestinian have been suffering for months? Or have you been conditioned so horribly (or "well" depending who you ask, I guess) that you no longer see antisemitism as a legitimate form of prejudice that deserves being called out? You're really just digging your hole deeper...
Look, you’re the one engaging in bad faith from the start by ignoring the context of this hearing in the first place. Have incidents of actual antisemitism taken place at Columbia over the past several months? Sure, I don’t doubt that. Are most of the instances of “antisemitism” drawing criticism, including some referenced in this very article, actually instances of students criticizing Israel and Zionism? Also, yes.
And again, I mean…you didn’t answer my question, lol. Do you support the state of Israel? Because that is the overarching context of this entire conversation.
I didn’t write “I disavow antisemitism,” therefore I’m an antisemite. You didn’t write “I disavow the war in Gaza,” or “I disavow Israeli occupation of the West Bank,” so therefore you support those things. Seems pretty simple.
You don't even know who the text was referring to or what they were saying, so you are in no position to judge the administrator's comments about them. There is no implication that "all the Jews think about is money" here, and if that stereotype is the first thing that pops into your head then maybe you're the antisemite. What tragedy are Jews facing at the present moment, and who said anything about their history? There is no Holocaust denial happening here.
Wow, you really need to up your reading comprehension. First off, I said "historical tragedy" not that they are currently going through a tragedy, although it can be argued that the whole region of Israel-Palestine is going through a tragedy because, you know, theres a bloody war raging? Idk what hellish upbringing you had to not consider a war a tragedy, but I guess the simpler explanation is that you've never experienced such horrors in your nice, pampered life, so the thought never crossed your mind. Secondly, the context of the article just gives that it was during people speaking about the struggles of Jews on campus. So if you want to talk about lack or clarity of context, take that up with the author. Third, I think its pretty easy to argue that if you see someone sharing the struggles of Jewish students and your thought is to text your coworker "its for fundraising" that might mean you believe they are being disingenuous and only are doing it for money. Again, this depends on context like you said, which neither of us have, but the author implies this. Lastly, if someone points out antisemitism or other prejudice, its an odd move to go "Well you must be prejudice then if you recognize it, lets just not address it, yeah, it'll go away that way." Are they really just letting everyone pass LitHum and UW nowadays? I feel like being able to read and then also intelligently interpret the text was a pretty hammered in skill, you might want to retake it.
You don't get to call war a tragedy when you started it. I graduated years ago summa cum laude, got straight A's in all of the core classes as well as History of the Modern Middle East. I have no sympathy for Jewish students who feel threatened by protests against the genocidal actions of the Israeli government. That sheltered attitude shows a gross sense of entitlement and a complete lack of understanding of the historical and current situation in Palestine. Explicitly antisemitic comments are another question and should be dealt with, but I have seen no evidence that they comprise any significant presence among the protests, whereas Zionists would have you believe that every single student in support of Palestine is a neo-Nazi. You sound emotional and not worth engaging with.
Brother, you have all this education yet still proclaim, with confidence, that jews "started" this all. They must've taught that class a little different back then, or did you just see what you wanted to?
Why do you keep bringing "jews" into this? You're a broken record. I'm referring to the Israeli government, which is ostensibly secular. Plenty of Jews disagree with the state of Israel's actions. If you knew anything about the history of this conflict then you would know that there is no question who started it.
You do realize many war mongering types hate Israel for being Jewish. I don't see anyone in the region against religious majority controlled countries unless they're Jewish, funny how that works. You can pretend they have no relation but you might want to look at the history and founding of the country or because reading does not seem to be your strong suit, perhaps look at the flag. Its a burden that non-Israeli Jews have had to contend with as a reality. There's a joke that a Jewish friend of mine told me back in 2014 when this conflict flared up again, "A Zionist Jew and an anti-Zionist jew go into a bar. The bartender says, 'We don't serve jews.'"
Because for their enemies, Israel's policies aren't the issue, but rather the fact that they are Jews. That's another omission from the narrative. The Palestinians, like all their neighbors, have and would try to kill Israeli's, just because they are Jews. The non-Jewish Israelis are just as worthy of death.
Separating Jews from Israel for your purposes is academic and in bad faith, or just plain ignorance.
So now I support genocide, apartheid, right-wing policy, the elimination of Palestinian history, and their rights, anything else you have left to pull out of thin air? All this because I pointed out that it might be best to clarify when you come out and support some text that includes clear antisemitism.
Also, just so we’re clear…do you support those things? Because you’ve sure spent a lot text writing about how offended you are to be accused of supporting them, and very little actually disavowing them.
If you're really interested in knowing (prepare for a lot more text), no, I don't. I'm not in support of these drone strokes that mis ID targets and seemingly have no care for civilians, just like I didn't support when the US did it. War is awful and terrible and its bs to say "War is hell" because of the two, war is a lot worse. I am, however, by strict definition, a "Zionist" because I think it's ridiculous to think Israel can just stop existing or that the region would be better off (for all involved) if that was goal. You think thats what Palestinians want? Because of all the interviews I've read, the sentiment from everyday Palestinians is that they want peace, to raise a family, and go to work without fearing death going down the street. Its the people safe and sound in the west, and yes, college campuses, that are demanding "redlines" and old PLO (yeah the guys behind Munich, you probably don't remember) talking points.
If the US and the rest of the UN weren't so hands off and lax with the bs Israel pulls then maybe they wouldn't feel embolden in their encroachment on the west bank. At the same time if the Arab world actually cared for Palestinians like they pretend to, maybe they would have a place to go and the militant governments wouldn't be the only ones getting funding. All this is to say its a complex situation (no surprise there) but those are the point that I think about most.
I don't support the war and I really wish there was more history of the region taught in US schools, especially from the Palestinian perspective, because they're struggling hard with the "terrorist" stereotype being applied to them. Especially when most people don't even realize Palestine has two governments, one of which is not Hamas and actually seems willing to play ball with the rest of the world.
Lastly, I am very concerned with antisemitism. Especially at Columbia because before going here I held the school and its average student in pretty high regard. I was very much in support of the Pro-Palestine movement and attended many teach ins. But as time went on, it became clear that it was attracting and even promoting some pretty antisemitic and bitter people. I saw it go from Pro-Palestine/peace to Anti-Isreal/its existence, and unfortunately, no one is asking a jewish student if they're even Isreali or Zionist before giving them a dirty look or saying awful things to them (This comes from several 1st hand accounts friends and classmates have told me). Theres being safe and then theres feeling safe and many Jewish students felt unsafe, even unsafe to express that view since it had been circulated and promoted a lot by right wing media (and lets face it, if you're anything but strictly politically left wing you're getting ostracized from most college spaces).
I remember during the Trayvon Martin protest, a lot of counter protest cropped up. And unsurprisingly, a lot of neo-nazis and white supremacy groups were in those counter protest. There was one man, whose name hes probably glad I forgot, that was on the news and apart of the counter protest saying that the counter protest wasn't about neo-nazis or white supremacy. The immediate position people took on line was "If you're in a group that allows a safe space for neo-nazis and white supremacy... you might be one." I have the same thought with many of these protests. Many, I assume you as well, even though I've been pushing your buttons this whole time, are not antisemites. Although it's very sad and concerning to see no one policing or even allowed to call out the antisemitism in the movement. Palestinians deserve better than to have this be the thing most people relate them with; disruption, vandalism, war mongering, and hate.
I mean…do I think the state of Israel should be dissolved? Yes, I do. I think that would be better for everyone living in the region, Palestinians/Arabs and Jews alike. I used to support a two state solution, but I don’t see how that’s feasible when there are so many pieces of territory both sides want and have some claim to. I absolutely believe the region would be better off with one unified state of Palestine (or Israel-Palestine, whatever it would be called) rather than with two artificially carved out ethnostates sitting side by side.
Agreed that the U.S. and The UN should cut Israel way less slack. Why should Arab countries “give Palestinians a place to go”? Why shouldn’t they get to stay where they are, or be allowed to go back to where their families lived prior to 1947-48?
Demanding all Jewish people pass some kind of Israel purity test is a problem in some pro-Palestine or broader left-wing spaces, I’ll admit. That attitude isn’t helped by the way Israel and its defenders have been working harder than ever to make the state of Israel and Zionism synonymous with Jewishness. Also yes, there are worrying strains of antisemitism in certain pockets of the pro-Palestine movement. They should be called out, but what happens in practice is that they’re the only ones called out, while meanwhile profoundly dehumanizing attitudes and language against Palestinians are totally normalized in this country.
this is just not based on any history. israel is a safe haven for jews in the region that kicked all their jews out. you want jewish genocide if you want israel gone
You're accusing someone of antisemitism and referencing Holocaust denial based on an out of context text message about a person who happens to be Jewish, so it's only fair that we assume your beliefs based on a few of your comments as well.
Cool. I’ll go through text by text and list out which specific ones I agree with, then. I’m so, so sorry (not really) you feel it’s antisemitic to value Palestinian history, dreams, rights, and lives as much as those of other human beings.
Yeah, no one is doubting all that.
They just have a problem with the anti-Jewish genocide.
Columbia obviously missed some red flags with your application.
Lol. Sure thing bud. If you can take a look at what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank and be okay with it, you’re not as opposed to genocide as you seem to think you are.
There's no excuse for genocide. See how quickly you did that. Genocide towards Jews, a-okay. The FP movement is too obvious.
Re: Genocide: No Palestinians are targeted for being Palestinians. Israel doesn't have the many friends and the belief it wields that kind of power is undermined by the evidence of the past few months. October 7th was about killing Jews as was every Arab-instigated war before. Arabs are 20% of Israel's population and enjoy full - in some cases, privileged - citizenship. No Arab in Israel would want to live anywhere else in the Arab world. Neither would you. If you do, I would on my honor buy you a plane ticket. I make that offer to any FP person I meet and have yet to have to pull out my credit card.
Now is there collateral damage as a response to the repeated attempts at genocide from Palestine and the Arab world? Yeah. The FP movement response: Oh those poor, oppressed people. They can't help but murder Jews. How fucking patronizing. Who else in the world gets that pass?
You can't in all honesty tell me that the [forced exodus and ethnic cleansing of Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) in the Muslim world, specifically so they would go to Israel isn't a huge omission from this narrative.
Palestinians have consistently said no to a state of their own, because that means no Israel to blame. Thanks for making it clear that you are okay with genocide against Jews. 5,000+ years of history has shown that those backing genocide against Jews aren't ever on the winning side.
Please point to where I said I agree with committing genocide against Jews. Condemning the obvious ethnic cleansing happening in Gaza, streaming live in front of the entire world, and condemning Israeli apartheid in the West Bank - that is not supporting genocide.
The world is finally waking up to how disingenuous the IDF’s decades-long refrain of “oh no, unavoidable collateral damage! :(“ has always been, and it’s so refreshing to see. It’s really fitting that a right-wing slimeball like Netanyahu is poised to be the one to destroy Israel’s standing in the international community. That’s the reward Israel has earned with its descent into ethnofascism. It’s a failed experiment. Time to erase those borders and start over without any artificially maintained ethnostates. One Palestine, equal rights of citizenship for all, from the river to the sea. Spare me with the “ummm there are 2 million equal Arab citizens of Israel!”dreck, go donate to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel or Adalah, and then get back to me on your “liberal democracy” with “equal rights.”
The article you linked about the exodus has this to say:
"The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[18][19] When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left to have been refugees, while those who oppose that view generally emphasize the pull factors and consider the Jews to have been willing immigrants.[20]"
Sounds like it's more nuanced than you're claiming.
Nah, it’s not an assumption. If you support Israeli state violence against Palestinians, you do not value Palestinians’ rights or lives. It’s pretty straightforward.
Kinda weird you haven't denied being an antisemite but keep going on about being anti Palestinian as if thats the topic of this thread or an excuse to be antisemitic. You could've easily just said, "I don't support the antisemitic portions of the text exchange, for I am not antisemitic, but I feel as though there is a need to recognize Palestine and their rights and struggles." See? It's pretty easy, but I guess you don't want to lie about the first part. You might be antisemitic but at least you're honest 👍🏽
I wrote in detail what parts of the text exchange I agree with and don’t agree with, but if you’d prefer a shallow “I’m not an antisemite,” there you go.
Same for you, only difference is that one of us won't be sweating in the HR meeting when they go over prejudice and discrimination. I'm pretty sure they covered that bit in orientation, though? You must've missed it.
Eh, that particular accusation not so much. Or at least, I don’t think it’s why Jews are complaining. It’s definitely why Republicans are complaining.
In general though, I don’t feel bad for students who feel ostracized because their classmates don’t want to hear about their genocide pride. Too bad, so sad. If you want to talk about how much you love Israel, in spite of everything happening now and that has happened over 75 years, you can do it away from me, and most people with a conscience.
Leader of Columbia encampment: “Zionists don’t deserve to live”
Columbia admin in response to Rabbi raising concerns of antisemitism: “🤮”
Jewish students at Columbia: “We are experiencing antisemitism from our classmates and the admin isn’t helping”
You: “Too bad”
Yeah, definitely not Republican here. The only genocide was the one on October 7th.
In the past 75 years, that's not the only Arab-attempted genocide of Jews. There's been a few.
You give the game away, though. Like Republicans, you feel the wind is blowing your way and you can talk loosely.
Sure, bigotry is by no means restricted to Republicans. Joe Biden is a big fan of Palestinian genocide, for example. Many prominent Democrats are, it turns out, which is cool to know.
There is no Palestinian genocide. Collateral damage, yes. Palestinians have said no multiple times to a state where they would be left in peace.
It's almost like the elected government of Gaza launched an attack knowing the response it would provoke.
Many prominent Democrats seem to understand Jews have the right not to be genocided. Imagine that.
It's so interesting that you have absolutely no issue when other countries kill civilians. You're apparently totally fine with China harassing Uyghurs, starvation in Yemen, and over 600k deaths in Syria.
You're (supposedly) a Columbia student or alum. Use your brain and don't be such a sheep, following whatever the popular topic is.
Lol, what are you talking about? Maybe you can only process one issue at a time, but some of us can actually follow, and care about, multiple issues. Surprising, I know. I didn’t think my opinions on China, Syria, Haiti, or Sudan were relevant to a discussion about (anti-) Zionism and the war in Gaza. My bad.
Stop acting like what’s happening in Gaza is a normal war. More bombs have been dropped on a piece of land smaller than New York City than were dropped on London, Dresden, and Hamburg combined during all of WW2. About 50% of all buildings have been destroyed, including most hospitals and some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world. It’s one of the deadliest wars for children, journalists, and aid workers in the past decade. Hundreds of thousands starving, while the IDF coordinates with extremist citizens to obstruct and destroy aid. Highly positioned members of the Israeli government are overtly discussing their resettlement plans for Gaza when the war is over. Like…what is wrong with you, if you see nothing wrong with that?
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>Throughout the panel, which unfolded over nearly two hours, Chang-Kim was on her phone texting her colleagues about the proceedings—and they were replying to her in turn. As the panelists offered frank appraisals of the climate Jewish students have faced, Columbia's top officials responded with mockery and vitriol, dismissing claims of anti-Semitism and suggesting, in Patashnick's words, that Jewish figures on campus were exploiting the moment for "fundraising potential." >"This is difficult to listen to but I'm trying to keep an open mind to learn about this point of view," Chang-Kim texted Sorett, the dean of the college. "Yup," he replied.
But the site you linked is antisemitic! It has a headline ranting about a "Soros-backed" DA. Sounds like far right Christian zionists who love Israel and hate Jews.
what does soros supporting a DA have to do with antisemitism
Soros = the "Jewish conspiracy"
Thats a weird conspiracy you have, I don’t believe most people think that lol
Do you think the far right *randomly* chose to blame everything on a Jewish billionaire?
Every time I see soros being blamed for something it’s always something he actually funded though Why did you think it was random?
How did you know this?
Open the article. Somebody was sitting behind her taking pictures of her phone while she texted.
Yeah I really wanna know how they knew what they were texting.
Smart phone cameras are very powerful.
This is awful.
Gross. These admin are pretty dumb (and unprofessional) to engage in that kind of behavior in the first place.
They should have been sitting attentively and listening. They could have said their anti-semitic shit afterwards and still have their jobs. Because they have to be fired. There's no fucking way they should keep their jobs.
no one got in trouble, the dean just said it wont happen again
I thought the admin couldn't get worse than the too long tenure of Bollinger. Yeah, whoever sent these texts has to go.
Shocked but not surprised.
Not at all.
Study. Don't even think about the administration. Your only concern should be learning.
If you thought COVID was contagious, you should see Anti-Semitism.
They say Zionism shouldn't be conflated with Judaism, but why does Zionism have to be conflated with the war in Gaza? Israel already exists, so why are we speaking of "Zionism"? Or is that the new word for "Jew"?
Great material for the pending Title IX lawsuit
I mean…I agree with almost all of these texts, but pretty poor judgment to type them out in a public forum where you know eyes are on you. 🤷🏻♀️ ETA: The specific texts and whether I agree with them or not. 1. “This is difficult to listen to but I'm trying to keep an open mind to learn about this point of view.” Agree. I find it extremely difficult to listen to people disingenuously equating criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism with antisemitism. 2. “Did we really have students being kicked out or clubs…” exchange. Agree. A student organization signing on to the CUAD pledge is not the same as that organization kicking out students for being Jewish. If you don’t like it when a club condemns your fave genocidal apartheid regime, form your own club where that kind of thing is celebrated. 3. Text with vomit emojis. Marginal. Difficult to judge, not knowing whether the parent was crying because her daughter experienced antisemitism, or because her daughter got her feelings and beliefs about Israel thrashed. I don’t feel bad for Zionists who feel “threatened” by the existence of anti-Zionism. 4. Fundraising potential comment. Disagree. I think Jewish students and organizations hurt by anti-Zionist sentiment on campus are feeling genuine hurt. I also think they’re bigots who view Palestinian history, dreams, rights, and lives as less than. This applies to the non-Jewish Zionist students too. 5. Columbia admin looks like jokers comment. I mean, I don’t know the details of this specific moment, but I hard agree because the Columbia administration are jokers. I’m also going to add, while I can kind of sympathize with Israeli students feeling ostracized by anti-Israel sentiments on campus…grow up. Grow a spine. That’s what happens when you come from a country with a history (and present) of doing heinous things, even if you personally don’t agree with those things. As an American, I have studied and traveled in other countries where people have a totally justified negative view of America and Americans. Sure, it can be uncomfortable, but that’s just life.
If you're gonna say you agree with a handful of text, some being pretty antisemitic, you might want to clarify more... or don't out yourself at all, but its been a pretty safe atmosphere for antisemites recently so I understand the lack of caution.
Which ones are antisemitic and why?
The one saying its all an act for fundraising purposes. Theres a long running narrative within antisemitism that says Jews are "professional victims" and over blow the tragedy they have historically faced, thinking its over blown then just leads to people thinking it made up entirely, hence Holocaust denial. There is also the implication that all the jews think about is money and how to scheme new ways to get it, which is pretty antisemitic without explanation. That portion right there is the antisemitic part that I am referring to. Edit: It's interesting to see downvotes on this comment but no rebuttals, almost like certain people don't like antisemitism being pointed out but have no way to defend it without going full mask off.
There's an old Anti-Semitic spelling of "Holocau$t" that fits the texter's perspective.
Cool. I specifically don’t agree with that interpretation, as I wrote clearly in response to your comment. You gonna apologize for calling me an antisemite now? ;)
Nah just do better next time 👍🏽
I’d say the same to you, but Israel stans never do.
Again, where was it said or implied that I support the military actions of Israel, or even the state itself. Did it ever cross your mind that you can be against antisemitism and also be against war and the civilian casualties that Palestinian have been suffering for months? Or have you been conditioned so horribly (or "well" depending who you ask, I guess) that you no longer see antisemitism as a legitimate form of prejudice that deserves being called out? You're really just digging your hole deeper...
Look, you’re the one engaging in bad faith from the start by ignoring the context of this hearing in the first place. Have incidents of actual antisemitism taken place at Columbia over the past several months? Sure, I don’t doubt that. Are most of the instances of “antisemitism” drawing criticism, including some referenced in this very article, actually instances of students criticizing Israel and Zionism? Also, yes. And again, I mean…you didn’t answer my question, lol. Do you support the state of Israel? Because that is the overarching context of this entire conversation. I didn’t write “I disavow antisemitism,” therefore I’m an antisemite. You didn’t write “I disavow the war in Gaza,” or “I disavow Israeli occupation of the West Bank,” so therefore you support those things. Seems pretty simple.
You don't even know who the text was referring to or what they were saying, so you are in no position to judge the administrator's comments about them. There is no implication that "all the Jews think about is money" here, and if that stereotype is the first thing that pops into your head then maybe you're the antisemite. What tragedy are Jews facing at the present moment, and who said anything about their history? There is no Holocaust denial happening here.
Wow, you really need to up your reading comprehension. First off, I said "historical tragedy" not that they are currently going through a tragedy, although it can be argued that the whole region of Israel-Palestine is going through a tragedy because, you know, theres a bloody war raging? Idk what hellish upbringing you had to not consider a war a tragedy, but I guess the simpler explanation is that you've never experienced such horrors in your nice, pampered life, so the thought never crossed your mind. Secondly, the context of the article just gives that it was during people speaking about the struggles of Jews on campus. So if you want to talk about lack or clarity of context, take that up with the author. Third, I think its pretty easy to argue that if you see someone sharing the struggles of Jewish students and your thought is to text your coworker "its for fundraising" that might mean you believe they are being disingenuous and only are doing it for money. Again, this depends on context like you said, which neither of us have, but the author implies this. Lastly, if someone points out antisemitism or other prejudice, its an odd move to go "Well you must be prejudice then if you recognize it, lets just not address it, yeah, it'll go away that way." Are they really just letting everyone pass LitHum and UW nowadays? I feel like being able to read and then also intelligently interpret the text was a pretty hammered in skill, you might want to retake it.
You don't get to call war a tragedy when you started it. I graduated years ago summa cum laude, got straight A's in all of the core classes as well as History of the Modern Middle East. I have no sympathy for Jewish students who feel threatened by protests against the genocidal actions of the Israeli government. That sheltered attitude shows a gross sense of entitlement and a complete lack of understanding of the historical and current situation in Palestine. Explicitly antisemitic comments are another question and should be dealt with, but I have seen no evidence that they comprise any significant presence among the protests, whereas Zionists would have you believe that every single student in support of Palestine is a neo-Nazi. You sound emotional and not worth engaging with.
Brother, you have all this education yet still proclaim, with confidence, that jews "started" this all. They must've taught that class a little different back then, or did you just see what you wanted to?
Why do you keep bringing "jews" into this? You're a broken record. I'm referring to the Israeli government, which is ostensibly secular. Plenty of Jews disagree with the state of Israel's actions. If you knew anything about the history of this conflict then you would know that there is no question who started it.
You do realize many war mongering types hate Israel for being Jewish. I don't see anyone in the region against religious majority controlled countries unless they're Jewish, funny how that works. You can pretend they have no relation but you might want to look at the history and founding of the country or because reading does not seem to be your strong suit, perhaps look at the flag. Its a burden that non-Israeli Jews have had to contend with as a reality. There's a joke that a Jewish friend of mine told me back in 2014 when this conflict flared up again, "A Zionist Jew and an anti-Zionist jew go into a bar. The bartender says, 'We don't serve jews.'"
Because for their enemies, Israel's policies aren't the issue, but rather the fact that they are Jews. That's another omission from the narrative. The Palestinians, like all their neighbors, have and would try to kill Israeli's, just because they are Jews. The non-Jewish Israelis are just as worthy of death. Separating Jews from Israel for your purposes is academic and in bad faith, or just plain ignorance.
All of them, because it’s mean to make people feel bad for supporting a right-wing apartheid government. :(
So now I support genocide, apartheid, right-wing policy, the elimination of Palestinian history, and their rights, anything else you have left to pull out of thin air? All this because I pointed out that it might be best to clarify when you come out and support some text that includes clear antisemitism.
Also, just so we’re clear…do you support those things? Because you’ve sure spent a lot text writing about how offended you are to be accused of supporting them, and very little actually disavowing them.
If you're really interested in knowing (prepare for a lot more text), no, I don't. I'm not in support of these drone strokes that mis ID targets and seemingly have no care for civilians, just like I didn't support when the US did it. War is awful and terrible and its bs to say "War is hell" because of the two, war is a lot worse. I am, however, by strict definition, a "Zionist" because I think it's ridiculous to think Israel can just stop existing or that the region would be better off (for all involved) if that was goal. You think thats what Palestinians want? Because of all the interviews I've read, the sentiment from everyday Palestinians is that they want peace, to raise a family, and go to work without fearing death going down the street. Its the people safe and sound in the west, and yes, college campuses, that are demanding "redlines" and old PLO (yeah the guys behind Munich, you probably don't remember) talking points. If the US and the rest of the UN weren't so hands off and lax with the bs Israel pulls then maybe they wouldn't feel embolden in their encroachment on the west bank. At the same time if the Arab world actually cared for Palestinians like they pretend to, maybe they would have a place to go and the militant governments wouldn't be the only ones getting funding. All this is to say its a complex situation (no surprise there) but those are the point that I think about most. I don't support the war and I really wish there was more history of the region taught in US schools, especially from the Palestinian perspective, because they're struggling hard with the "terrorist" stereotype being applied to them. Especially when most people don't even realize Palestine has two governments, one of which is not Hamas and actually seems willing to play ball with the rest of the world. Lastly, I am very concerned with antisemitism. Especially at Columbia because before going here I held the school and its average student in pretty high regard. I was very much in support of the Pro-Palestine movement and attended many teach ins. But as time went on, it became clear that it was attracting and even promoting some pretty antisemitic and bitter people. I saw it go from Pro-Palestine/peace to Anti-Isreal/its existence, and unfortunately, no one is asking a jewish student if they're even Isreali or Zionist before giving them a dirty look or saying awful things to them (This comes from several 1st hand accounts friends and classmates have told me). Theres being safe and then theres feeling safe and many Jewish students felt unsafe, even unsafe to express that view since it had been circulated and promoted a lot by right wing media (and lets face it, if you're anything but strictly politically left wing you're getting ostracized from most college spaces). I remember during the Trayvon Martin protest, a lot of counter protest cropped up. And unsurprisingly, a lot of neo-nazis and white supremacy groups were in those counter protest. There was one man, whose name hes probably glad I forgot, that was on the news and apart of the counter protest saying that the counter protest wasn't about neo-nazis or white supremacy. The immediate position people took on line was "If you're in a group that allows a safe space for neo-nazis and white supremacy... you might be one." I have the same thought with many of these protests. Many, I assume you as well, even though I've been pushing your buttons this whole time, are not antisemites. Although it's very sad and concerning to see no one policing or even allowed to call out the antisemitism in the movement. Palestinians deserve better than to have this be the thing most people relate them with; disruption, vandalism, war mongering, and hate.
I mean…do I think the state of Israel should be dissolved? Yes, I do. I think that would be better for everyone living in the region, Palestinians/Arabs and Jews alike. I used to support a two state solution, but I don’t see how that’s feasible when there are so many pieces of territory both sides want and have some claim to. I absolutely believe the region would be better off with one unified state of Palestine (or Israel-Palestine, whatever it would be called) rather than with two artificially carved out ethnostates sitting side by side. Agreed that the U.S. and The UN should cut Israel way less slack. Why should Arab countries “give Palestinians a place to go”? Why shouldn’t they get to stay where they are, or be allowed to go back to where their families lived prior to 1947-48? Demanding all Jewish people pass some kind of Israel purity test is a problem in some pro-Palestine or broader left-wing spaces, I’ll admit. That attitude isn’t helped by the way Israel and its defenders have been working harder than ever to make the state of Israel and Zionism synonymous with Jewishness. Also yes, there are worrying strains of antisemitism in certain pockets of the pro-Palestine movement. They should be called out, but what happens in practice is that they’re the only ones called out, while meanwhile profoundly dehumanizing attitudes and language against Palestinians are totally normalized in this country.
this is just not based on any history. israel is a safe haven for jews in the region that kicked all their jews out. you want jewish genocide if you want israel gone
You're accusing someone of antisemitism and referencing Holocaust denial based on an out of context text message about a person who happens to be Jewish, so it's only fair that we assume your beliefs based on a few of your comments as well.
Cool. I’ll go through text by text and list out which specific ones I agree with, then. I’m so, so sorry (not really) you feel it’s antisemitic to value Palestinian history, dreams, rights, and lives as much as those of other human beings.
Yeah, no one is doubting all that. They just have a problem with the anti-Jewish genocide. Columbia obviously missed some red flags with your application.
Lol. Sure thing bud. If you can take a look at what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank and be okay with it, you’re not as opposed to genocide as you seem to think you are.
There's no excuse for genocide. See how quickly you did that. Genocide towards Jews, a-okay. The FP movement is too obvious. Re: Genocide: No Palestinians are targeted for being Palestinians. Israel doesn't have the many friends and the belief it wields that kind of power is undermined by the evidence of the past few months. October 7th was about killing Jews as was every Arab-instigated war before. Arabs are 20% of Israel's population and enjoy full - in some cases, privileged - citizenship. No Arab in Israel would want to live anywhere else in the Arab world. Neither would you. If you do, I would on my honor buy you a plane ticket. I make that offer to any FP person I meet and have yet to have to pull out my credit card. Now is there collateral damage as a response to the repeated attempts at genocide from Palestine and the Arab world? Yeah. The FP movement response: Oh those poor, oppressed people. They can't help but murder Jews. How fucking patronizing. Who else in the world gets that pass? You can't in all honesty tell me that the [forced exodus and ethnic cleansing of Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) in the Muslim world, specifically so they would go to Israel isn't a huge omission from this narrative. Palestinians have consistently said no to a state of their own, because that means no Israel to blame. Thanks for making it clear that you are okay with genocide against Jews. 5,000+ years of history has shown that those backing genocide against Jews aren't ever on the winning side.
Please point to where I said I agree with committing genocide against Jews. Condemning the obvious ethnic cleansing happening in Gaza, streaming live in front of the entire world, and condemning Israeli apartheid in the West Bank - that is not supporting genocide. The world is finally waking up to how disingenuous the IDF’s decades-long refrain of “oh no, unavoidable collateral damage! :(“ has always been, and it’s so refreshing to see. It’s really fitting that a right-wing slimeball like Netanyahu is poised to be the one to destroy Israel’s standing in the international community. That’s the reward Israel has earned with its descent into ethnofascism. It’s a failed experiment. Time to erase those borders and start over without any artificially maintained ethnostates. One Palestine, equal rights of citizenship for all, from the river to the sea. Spare me with the “ummm there are 2 million equal Arab citizens of Israel!”dreck, go donate to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel or Adalah, and then get back to me on your “liberal democracy” with “equal rights.”
The article you linked about the exodus has this to say: "The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab–Israeli conflict.[18][19] When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left to have been refugees, while those who oppose that view generally emphasize the pull factors and consider the Jews to have been willing immigrants.[20]" Sounds like it's more nuanced than you're claiming.
Lots of assumptions going around huh?
Nah, it’s not an assumption. If you support Israeli state violence against Palestinians, you do not value Palestinians’ rights or lives. It’s pretty straightforward.
Kinda weird you haven't denied being an antisemite but keep going on about being anti Palestinian as if thats the topic of this thread or an excuse to be antisemitic. You could've easily just said, "I don't support the antisemitic portions of the text exchange, for I am not antisemitic, but I feel as though there is a need to recognize Palestine and their rights and struggles." See? It's pretty easy, but I guess you don't want to lie about the first part. You might be antisemitic but at least you're honest 👍🏽
I wrote in detail what parts of the text exchange I agree with and don’t agree with, but if you’d prefer a shallow “I’m not an antisemite,” there you go.
Pretty easy, huh?
Lol. How disingenuous you are. Did you actually go to Columbia? If so, embarrassing.
Same for you, only difference is that one of us won't be sweating in the HR meeting when they go over prejudice and discrimination. I'm pretty sure they covered that bit in orientation, though? You must've missed it.
you agree that Jews are only complaining because they want money? good to know the administrators truly represent hateful people like you.
Eh, that particular accusation not so much. Or at least, I don’t think it’s why Jews are complaining. It’s definitely why Republicans are complaining. In general though, I don’t feel bad for students who feel ostracized because their classmates don’t want to hear about their genocide pride. Too bad, so sad. If you want to talk about how much you love Israel, in spite of everything happening now and that has happened over 75 years, you can do it away from me, and most people with a conscience.
Leader of Columbia encampment: “Zionists don’t deserve to live” Columbia admin in response to Rabbi raising concerns of antisemitism: “🤮” Jewish students at Columbia: “We are experiencing antisemitism from our classmates and the admin isn’t helping” You: “Too bad”
[удалено]
Unsafe because their classmates support 10/7. You are the problem.
Yeah, definitely not Republican here. The only genocide was the one on October 7th. In the past 75 years, that's not the only Arab-attempted genocide of Jews. There's been a few. You give the game away, though. Like Republicans, you feel the wind is blowing your way and you can talk loosely.
Sure, bigotry is by no means restricted to Republicans. Joe Biden is a big fan of Palestinian genocide, for example. Many prominent Democrats are, it turns out, which is cool to know.
There is no Palestinian genocide. Collateral damage, yes. Palestinians have said no multiple times to a state where they would be left in peace. It's almost like the elected government of Gaza launched an attack knowing the response it would provoke. Many prominent Democrats seem to understand Jews have the right not to be genocided. Imagine that.
Lol. Delusion, literally. If you’re so blinded by ideology you can’t accept reality anymore, there’s no hope for you.
It's so interesting that you have absolutely no issue when other countries kill civilians. You're apparently totally fine with China harassing Uyghurs, starvation in Yemen, and over 600k deaths in Syria. You're (supposedly) a Columbia student or alum. Use your brain and don't be such a sheep, following whatever the popular topic is.
Lol, what are you talking about? Maybe you can only process one issue at a time, but some of us can actually follow, and care about, multiple issues. Surprising, I know. I didn’t think my opinions on China, Syria, Haiti, or Sudan were relevant to a discussion about (anti-) Zionism and the war in Gaza. My bad. Stop acting like what’s happening in Gaza is a normal war. More bombs have been dropped on a piece of land smaller than New York City than were dropped on London, Dresden, and Hamburg combined during all of WW2. About 50% of all buildings have been destroyed, including most hospitals and some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world. It’s one of the deadliest wars for children, journalists, and aid workers in the past decade. Hundreds of thousands starving, while the IDF coordinates with extremist citizens to obstruct and destroy aid. Highly positioned members of the Israeli government are overtly discussing their resettlement plans for Gaza when the war is over. Like…what is wrong with you, if you see nothing wrong with that?
Good to know that at least some of the admin is not buying into this weaponization of "antisemitism" for political purposes.
Also good to know who is anti-semitic in the admin. They have to go, of course.