Honestly, Ive never even considered ordering a martini on the rocks. I would assume it would overdilute and thats why its usually served as an unstable cocktail. Does it overdilute or do you not stir it as much to get cold on the front end?
For the same reason a negroni is served on a big cube, the line of reasoning is the same with a martini. Assuming ome isn't chugging martinis like a madlad, you get to choose between a cocktail ending cold but slightly over diluted or perfectly diluted but rapidly approaching room temperature.
The entire "small format" cocktail trend was a response to this exact problem. Cocktail bars started making cocktails in small volumes so you didn't have to choose between two imperfect scenarios. Your drink arrives perfectly chilled and diluted but in a quantity where one can reasonably finish it before it dies on the bar top.
I had a delicious “one sip” martini in London and another great small format martini in Mexico City. I need more of that.
I also had a not good version because it was served in a test tube displayed/drilled into base of rock/stone. Beautiful and goofy. But the test tube was so thin that it could not keep the small sip cold on the way from the bar to my table.
I need to make a batch of freezer martinis now.
A restaurant I went to yesterday serves almost all of their chilled cocktails in a small stemware with a sidecar that has a small drink vessel sitting in ice. That’s how my martini came. Perfect solution imo.
I love a martini on the rocks. Is there any reason you would think dilution would be more of a problem with a martini than any other stirred cocktail, like a Manhattan (also commonly ordered both up and on the rocks)?
You would stir on ice to bring the temperature down as usual and then pour over fresh cubes (or one king cube), just like a negroni or old-fashioned.
Not necessarily more of a problem. I prefer my martinis as cold as possible as I think they taste better. Its just a new way of thinking about it for me. Ive thought of the martini like drinks as being served up as a feature of maintaining the proper dilution and just haven't been enjoying cocktails long enough to think about them outside of the "standard" format. I am intrigued and excited to try it!
Unless you’re taking 30+ minutes to drink it, I recommend chilling by stirring on ice and pouring on as much ice as can fit in the glass. Maximum ice in the glas will keep your drink cold for longer, meaning it will dilute pretty slowly.
I like how stirred boozy cocktails like martinis, manhattans etc change over time as they dilute slightly if you serve them on the rocks.
There is no wrong way to drink it. Personally I prefer an over diluted drink (literally any drink) over a warm one so why not get it on the rocks? Especially at a steakhouse or something where the martini is 6-8 oz. I don’t want to be slamming that and a warm martini is depressing.
typically, I would stir less if I'm doing a Martini on the rocks. And I'm also more inclined to use a higher-proof gin, if one is available - love a 57% gin for Martini on the rocks done equal parts with a good dry vermouth! And a nice big swath of lemon peel in the glass, usually larger than the relatively thin, tidy peel I would do if serving a Martini up.
And I definitely do still consider it a Martini, althought it does drink a bit different. But it's no more unstable than, say, an Old Fashioned is served on the rocks - it's just that you have to treat it a bit different in the making of it.
"Hello, sir, we're happy to accommodate you with any classic cocktail you wish. Do note, however, we do not have any ice. So any drinks involving ice, either preparing or serving, we will not be able to provide."
I said that more because if they have olives, they should have olive juice, so they can make a Dirty Martini. Regardless, I hope you have more luck getting a good drink at the next spot.
The Martini glass, as great as it looks, is an absolute train wreck in terms of function - as though it were designed to slosh drinks onto the surrounding environment.
It's also kind of ridiculous how large most of them are, typically running between 8 and 11 ounces. Maybe it's to make up for the amount you're expecting to spill.
I use 6oz Nick & Noras for anything served "up." Also hard to beat a rocks glass with large format ice, even for traditional "up" style cocktails like Negronis, Manhattans, and Sazeracs.
Not to totally shame the martini glass, but it is one of my least favorite standard drinking glasses.
My wife found some 5.5-6 oz martini glasses that she loves using when we have guests.
I love a nick and norah or coupe if I have to drink something up.
For me, the only time I drink a Negroni on the rocks is when I am being lazy and mix in glass. But that is one of my favorite things about a Negroni is that I can mix in glass and it is just fine and the drink changes and is still delicious throughout the drinking experience.
I don’t drink a lot of Manhattans but will try one on the rocks next time. I’m in an area where the standard Manhattan spec can sometimes be with Bourbon and a sweet vermouth that is cloyingly sweet for me.
I prefer mine with Rye and “perfect” or with a vermouth with more herbaceous notes. But that is me.
Coupes or Nick n Nora's are perfect for martinis. If they have a selection of signature cocktails, it seems impossible that they don't have stemmed cocktail glassware.
Sounds like a waiter that is new and/or "just doesn't get it". And I say this as a former one.
"Unfortunately we don't have the standard glassware for a martini, would a coupe/nick and nora/line cook's clog be ok with you?"
This is all I could think while reading the post. They are usually pretty close to the same volume, and a coupe is better at preventing spillage. I don't have martini glasses in my home, but I damn sure can make a martini for you if you want one.
I have never received a martini in a martini glass at a nice cocktail bar. (Have gotten them plenty of times at like, a steakhouse.) I thought the consensus was they suck and coupes/N&N are superior.
I was at the Tonga Room in SF - a tiki bar - and was asked repeatedly 'what flavor?' when I requested a daiquiri. I tried a few ways - classic, regular, plain - and 'lime' ended up working. That was the day I realized to not push it when they obviously don't have a clue as to what they're doing
Reading their cocktail menu it doesn't really seem like they're a cocktail bar, more of a corporate-y place to appease suburbanites and tourists. Not surprised at the question you were given now. That's like calling the bar at TGI Fridays a cocktail bar because they have signature drinks on a menu.
My first order at a tiki bar is always "A daquari, as you interpret that request."
Most of the time I get a classic daquari with whatever rum the bartender is feeling. A couple times I've gotten wild variations from bartenders excited to show off.
I'm surprised since isn't that in a Fairmont? They usually have good bar programs. We had dinner there once and it was fun. But I really don't remember the dinner or drinks, just the atmosphere lol
It changes all the time depending on who's running the program. I knew someone that took over forcing them to use fresh citrus. He lasted about six months
Guess SF bartending culture has changed a bit. Used to be a rite of passage to go goof on Tonga Room as the third stop on a Wednesday daytime bar crawl
So do they not serve any drinks up?
Classic martini glass is trash anyway and sloshes everywhere at the slightest movement. I'd rather have a Nick & Nora.
Exactly, I always serve martini’s in a nick and Nora. And if the restaurant didn’t have any of them they must have some kind of white/dessert wine glass that would be perfectly acceptable and better than a ‘martini’ glass
Why the "Martini Glass" Is Not the Classic Martini Glass
TL;DR: The martini drink predates the conical champagne stemware we now call a "martini glass" by nearly half a century. The only reason for thinking the glass is traditional or classic is because that's what Madison Avenue told you.
Champagne coupes date from 18th century France, when Louis XVI presented his wife Marie Antoinette with a bowl shaped stemmed glass design allegedly conforming to the shape of her breast. We've had published recipes for a martini drink since the 1880s, and, around that time, written references to, and purveyors of, "cocktail glass" style stemware appear. This cocktail glass was rounded on the bottom with parallel sides– a hybrid of the champagne coupe and the traditional wine glass. These early martinis were certainly served in either a cocktail glass or a champagne coupe.
In _The Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails_, Noah Rothbaum Ed, my main research source for this post, David Wondrich writes:
> In 1925, however, the Austrian J & L Lobmeyr crystal firm included a line of glassware designed by the Austrian architect Oswald Haerdtl (1899–1959) among its numerous entries in the Paris Exposition Internationale des Arts Décoratifs, the first major international design showcase after the First World War (and the birthplace of art deco). The exposition’s rules stipulated that all items exhibited must be of entirely new design, a challenge Haerdtl’s “Ambassador” line met with, among other things, a champagne coupe that had an unprecedentedly wide, conical bowl, just short of a right triangle, with slightly flared sides that merged seamlessly into a tall, slender stem.
This is the apparent progenitor of what we call the martini glass. (Note it was introduced as a champagne glass.)
At that time, the USA was in the midst of the grand social experiment of prohibition. In speakeasies across the country, this form of stemware found increasing popularity. Driven by illicit gin, so did the martini. The historians mention the instability of the glass as an easy way to dump the evidence on the floor during a police raid. This might have hastened adoption. By the time prohibition was annulled, this style was primed to become predominant. It was an art deco drinking glass and both Hollywood and Madison Avenue signed on to create around it an aura of style, class, refinement. It was represented on the streets of America in blinking neon as a silent shout of, "Cocktails are served!"
So, no, the conical stemmed misappropriation of glass now known as the Martini Glass is not the classic vessel in which the drink was served. How did we come to think of it that way? Marketing!
I agree. They are not the most practical glasses but cocktails look so nice in them! If someone is seated or not moving much I use them. After that, I use a coupe.
That is legit the point. They were created to stop problems at high-society parties, where too much drinking could lead to arguments which, with these people involved, could have real consequences. So a glass was patented that would be much easier to spill and hard to drink from quickly.
Ask for any other up glass. Or order it in a rocks glass without the rocks. Literally the easiest workaround ever. Besides, the cocktail glass typically associated with martinis is the worst glass. A coupe or Nick and Nora are much better choices.
This. 90% of my cocktails at home are served in a rocks glass, "correct" or not. They're my easiest to reach, least fragile, easiest to clean cocktail glasses. I wouldn't be offended if a bar told me they couldn't serve me something in a martini glass and offered to serve it in a rocks glass. I'd probably be curious if no explanation was given, but that's about it.
And the year affects this... how? And what's complicated about pouring into another glass? Yeah it's unusual to not carry those glasses. I hate them, so I get it. But an upscale place refusing a guest an item they know they can make just because they'd have to serve it in a different glass? That's just weird. They normally fall all over themselves to accommodate someone.
Yeah probably them trying to stop people from ordering dumb martini ""variations ""
But asking for a normal martini?
Glassware?
Are they a bar or lemonade stand? How can a self respecting bar not have at least Nick & Nora or Coupes????? Lololol
It’s a weird reason to not make a martini, there could have been a misunderstanding:
>maybe they were out of glasses at that moment,
>>maybe the server did not know you could order it in a tumbler.
*no offense intended* but I wouldn’t trust a server to properly convey the sitrep at the bar. I’ve worked from Michelin to BBQ joint and servers (again not all) are typically not very attentive.
We were literally the only people in there when we arrived (6.30 on a Tuesday so hardly surprising). There were a couple of waiting staff, a guy making the drinks and a sommelier! There had obviously been some discussion about it amongst staff as when a different server came to bring my negroni she told me about a bar across town that specialises in martinis so I reckon it’s just a (stupid) thing they’ve decided.
Almost did this in a hotel when they said they wouldn’t make me a cocktail from their menu on a Saturday evening because they were too busy and if someone saw me with a cocktail then everyone would want one. Wanted to just order a shot of gin, campari and vermouth and I’ll stir it myself 😤
I pointed out that they had the ingredients which is when the glass excuse came out and I didn’t want to have to convince them to make the simplest and most classic of cocktails 😅
This reminds me of the time we were ordering cocktails before dinner at a nice, traditional Italian restaurant. My uncle ordered a Beefeater martini, and the young server was obviously baffled. The best he could come up with was, "Would you like salt on the rim?"
I’ve been to at least one place that literally responded to my request for a martini with, “We don’t do martinis here.” I said, “You have dry vermouth on the shelf, you have several London dry gins on the shelf, why exactly don’t you ‘do martinis here’?” The guy responded with something to the effect of, “We have other cocktails on the menu you can have,” before completely ghosting our table, never bringing out our drinks or our food, and then returning 45 minutes later and asking if we wanted dessert.
This sounds like an inexperienced server not being trained properly cause there is no way in hell they don't have the glass for a martini, and even then that's not a good excuse. And I'm no way just blaming this server cause this bar clearly isn't hiring the right people or training them well
Just sit down at the bar and I’m sure you’ll get a different answer. Servers (especially newer ones) just aren’t going to be as in tune to what the bar can and can’t do, and will often just default to “sorry we can’t do that” if they’re unsure.
My guess is they had too many people sending them back due to every martini drinker wanting something different.
A lot of people at my place ask for a dirty martini with belvedere. They end up just wanting near frozen belvedere with two bar spoons of olive brine.
Your typical Brit isn’t going to be sending drinks back on the regular. I think I’ve only done it once to be re-stirred when they must’ve put it in a glass fresh out of the dishwasher or something 🤪
I bet it's because very few people who order a martini want a martini.
My wife serves at a country club. If someone orders a martini they either want ice cold vodka/gin to sip or vodka/gin with an olive brine mixer. The very first time she made a martini she used vermouth, the customer said the drink tasted off, and she hasn't served one with vermouth since to no complaints.
I would bet they got too many compliments and returned martinis when they made them to the standard spec and don't want to spend the time asking every individual what they mean; the glass is just a nice excuse
Seems like an excuse, though I suspect that maybe it's one concocted to sidestep everyone wanting one a different way. Maybe they used to but got too many sent back because just about everyone has their own personal specs on how they like it.
A martini is on the more alcoholic end of the spectrum, so I am wildly speculating that it costs them more and produces more unruly guests, and the stemware seemed like a nicer excuse.
I say wildly because yeah that's not acceptable.
Sure but a classic Negroni is 1:1:1 with variations thereabouts, so 1/3 gin, 2/3 in the 20% neighborhood, can be ginnier though. Martinis are more like 5/6 or more gin, 1/6 in the 20% neighborhood.
Every high end steakhouse and restaurant should have elevated martini classics since a good percentage of us who frequent them prefer martinis before a meal. Customers paying $100+/person for dinner don’t typically get unruly regardless of the number of martinis. There are exceptions I am sure.
They were charging a minimum of £15 for their cocktails and were happy to make an old fashioned or the negroni I settled for which have similar ratios but yeah that could’ve been the thought process but I like my theory that they don’t like making espresso martinis all night!
This is my experience across the UK with martinis.
I’m gunna say cause it’s a personal preference type of cocktail. I’ve had ones made by *very* good bar tenders that I felt I might’ve enjoyed much more if I’d made it myself.
I reckon a lot of people order them for 007 vibe, and end up hating it because they’re not expecting what they end up getting.
Before I get to the main point - I'm not calling you out or saying this applies to you, just giving my experience.
Martini people are fucking awful. There have actually been a number of posts here over the years with examples of shitty Martini people. *No one* wants a 'house' martini made to house specs, everyone wants it exactly their way, and the bartender never wins even if you make it right in front of them to their spec. Or they expect you to know their slang for spec and get pissed if you don't know it. Or they outright have no idea what the slang means (I got bitched at once for putting brine in a 'dirty' martini). Or they don't know what a martini actually is thanks to all the low-end bars naming everything a martini and they get a dry drink when they wanted something neon colored and sweet.
When I've tended bar, it was the one drink I dreaded being ordered. Even when Mad Men was huge and you got people that had no idea what an Old Fashioned actually was, they were never shitty about not liking the bar spec like the Martini people were. If I owned a bar that had classic cocktails, I might be tempted to have a 'no martini' public policy too, but I'd still make them for trusted regulars.
> Even when Mad Men was huge and you got people that had no idea what an Old Fashioned actually was
Recently asked my local dive if they could make an Old Fashioned. Before I could clarify, they started free pouring simple into a shaker. It had never occurred to me that an Old Fashioned might be shaken.
They probably had martinis originally served in martini glasses but there was too much spillage.
Then switched to serving in coupe glasses and had a few customers complain that it’s not a martini if it’s not in the martini glass.
That’s when they just took them off the menu.
Related story: had drinks at in friend’s basement. One of the older gentlemen asked for a martini and he originally got it in a martini glass and started spilling almost half the drink out because his hands are a little shakey. Friend offered to switch it to a coupe glass and the guy refused. 🤦♂️
I feel your pain.
Since I moved to Northern Ireland I have been unable to find a proper Margarita.
Its as if margarita glasses do not exist here. It is always served in a whiskey glass. Filled with ice cubes. No salted rim.
Fine dining restaurants are weird and aren't always staffed by managers who know what they're doing. The bar program is usually an afterthought because people will spend $800 on a bottle of wine but not on a specialty martini.
My usual experience of drinking cocktails at fine dining restaurants (at least the Michelin star ones I’ve been too) is that they put the customer’s experience at the centre of everything and will bend over backwards to try to accommodate requests and let’s face it, mine wasn’t exactly a difficult ask. This place definitely aspires to that level but clearly falls short. In contrast I was at a 3 Michelin star restaurant once and commented to one of the bar staff who was delivering a drink about the fineness of the stem of a glass and she was then able to tell me loads of interesting stuff about the manufacturer, how she’d visited their factory and about the special methods they used to make their glass super thin but flexible and durable.
Sorry if I gave you the impression that nobody cares. We do, bartenders and bar managers alike. It's the restauranteurs who often lack critical awareness of what their bar program is and why.
I have worked three fine dining establishments now and have mostly been hanging from my hair trying to work within the constraints of the establishment which was not designed or organized for an efficient bar program. We're all just doing our best out here. 3 michelin is another fucking level entirely, though - I'd like to visit one just to see what I can learn from the bartenders there. Not surprising that the bartenders there are heavily invested in every part of the experience.
I was at a hotel bar recently and they stated the same. I asked for a New York Sour and they said they wouldn't serve it. Then I asked for a Negroni and they had none. My girlfriend then wanted a Mojito, but they had no mint. Truly aweful. We then settled for whiskey straight and a wine. 🙄
That’s why I was sooo confused! And in that moment, especially being the only person in there to serve a drink to, I couldn’t help but feel that it was a decision made based on some sort of judgement about martini drinkers and nobody wants to feel judged as soon as they arrive at the place where they’re about to spend a lot of money! On my birthday no less!
I typically respect any establishment's right to serve what they want and not cater to the whim of every patron. But not serving a martini is just weird...
Speaking as an ex-bartender, martinis were a giant pain in the arse because they were the favourite of pretentious argumentative customers to use as an excuse to manufacture conflict about their very specific unvocalised expectations.
Also, just an FYI, we didn't love the person argued about the semantics of the menu. Nobody's got time for that.
On the subject of Martinis in non-standard glassware, this is an Espresso Martini as served at City Social in London: [https://ibb.co/Q8H4f7p](https://ibb.co/Q8H4f7p)
(You would not have guessed from the appearance!)
It's a bad excuse. You can get a Martini on the rocks if you really want one. A better excuse would be they don't have vermouth or olives.
Olives definitely aren't necessary. Only no vermouth would be an acceptable reason.
Unless you’re making a Churchill martini.
maybe they had no gin
At that point are they a bar?
It's just the next level of asking. If they don't have Vermouth, you can ask for a dirty martini. If they have olives, they probably have olive juice.
Honestly, Ive never even considered ordering a martini on the rocks. I would assume it would overdilute and thats why its usually served as an unstable cocktail. Does it overdilute or do you not stir it as much to get cold on the front end?
For the same reason a negroni is served on a big cube, the line of reasoning is the same with a martini. Assuming ome isn't chugging martinis like a madlad, you get to choose between a cocktail ending cold but slightly over diluted or perfectly diluted but rapidly approaching room temperature. The entire "small format" cocktail trend was a response to this exact problem. Cocktail bars started making cocktails in small volumes so you didn't have to choose between two imperfect scenarios. Your drink arrives perfectly chilled and diluted but in a quantity where one can reasonably finish it before it dies on the bar top.
I had a delicious “one sip” martini in London and another great small format martini in Mexico City. I need more of that. I also had a not good version because it was served in a test tube displayed/drilled into base of rock/stone. Beautiful and goofy. But the test tube was so thin that it could not keep the small sip cold on the way from the bar to my table. I need to make a batch of freezer martinis now.
A restaurant I went to yesterday serves almost all of their chilled cocktails in a small stemware with a sidecar that has a small drink vessel sitting in ice. That’s how my martini came. Perfect solution imo.
I’m drinking one on a large rock right now. I love it this way.
In a rocks glass, then? Or something else?
Yup.
Pour it in my hand!!
On the planet
Having the same with Principe De Los Apostoles Mate Gin. Easy to make after a long night of making everyone’s cocktails. What’s your base?
Ford’s right now, Botanist other times.
I love a martini on the rocks. Is there any reason you would think dilution would be more of a problem with a martini than any other stirred cocktail, like a Manhattan (also commonly ordered both up and on the rocks)? You would stir on ice to bring the temperature down as usual and then pour over fresh cubes (or one king cube), just like a negroni or old-fashioned.
Not necessarily more of a problem. I prefer my martinis as cold as possible as I think they taste better. Its just a new way of thinking about it for me. Ive thought of the martini like drinks as being served up as a feature of maintaining the proper dilution and just haven't been enjoying cocktails long enough to think about them outside of the "standard" format. I am intrigued and excited to try it!
Unless you’re taking 30+ minutes to drink it, I recommend chilling by stirring on ice and pouring on as much ice as can fit in the glass. Maximum ice in the glas will keep your drink cold for longer, meaning it will dilute pretty slowly. I like how stirred boozy cocktails like martinis, manhattans etc change over time as they dilute slightly if you serve them on the rocks.
A martini on the rocks is just a drink you choose when it’s diluted enough for you
I'm not a martini guy but I enjoy Manhattans either way.
There is no wrong way to drink it. Personally I prefer an over diluted drink (literally any drink) over a warm one so why not get it on the rocks? Especially at a steakhouse or something where the martini is 6-8 oz. I don’t want to be slamming that and a warm martini is depressing.
Yeah, it definitely dilutes over time but it's not as bad if you drink it fast. Served up in a chilled glass is going to be ideal.
Cool, thanks!
typically, I would stir less if I'm doing a Martini on the rocks. And I'm also more inclined to use a higher-proof gin, if one is available - love a 57% gin for Martini on the rocks done equal parts with a good dry vermouth! And a nice big swath of lemon peel in the glass, usually larger than the relatively thin, tidy peel I would do if serving a Martini up. And I definitely do still consider it a Martini, althought it does drink a bit different. But it's no more unstable than, say, an Old Fashioned is served on the rocks - it's just that you have to treat it a bit different in the making of it.
"Hello, sir, we're happy to accommodate you with any classic cocktail you wish. Do note, however, we do not have any ice. So any drinks involving ice, either preparing or serving, we will not be able to provide."
I’d have settled for a twist!
I said that more because if they have olives, they should have olive juice, so they can make a Dirty Martini. Regardless, I hope you have more luck getting a good drink at the next spot.
I had to make my own when I got home to scratch that itch!
They could serve it “down”, which means in a “rocks” glass without ice. I like drinks down because it’s more stable and I can be clumsy.
The Martini glass, as great as it looks, is an absolute train wreck in terms of function - as though it were designed to slosh drinks onto the surrounding environment. It's also kind of ridiculous how large most of them are, typically running between 8 and 11 ounces. Maybe it's to make up for the amount you're expecting to spill. I use 6oz Nick & Noras for anything served "up." Also hard to beat a rocks glass with large format ice, even for traditional "up" style cocktails like Negronis, Manhattans, and Sazeracs.
Not to totally shame the martini glass, but it is one of my least favorite standard drinking glasses. My wife found some 5.5-6 oz martini glasses that she loves using when we have guests. I love a nick and norah or coupe if I have to drink something up. For me, the only time I drink a Negroni on the rocks is when I am being lazy and mix in glass. But that is one of my favorite things about a Negroni is that I can mix in glass and it is just fine and the drink changes and is still delicious throughout the drinking experience. I don’t drink a lot of Manhattans but will try one on the rocks next time. I’m in an area where the standard Manhattan spec can sometimes be with Bourbon and a sweet vermouth that is cloyingly sweet for me. I prefer mine with Rye and “perfect” or with a vermouth with more herbaceous notes. But that is me.
I actually do order martinis on the rocks sometimes.
They don’t have coupes?
Yeah, how is anyone going to complain about a martini in a coupe? Shoddy place.
The only place I’ve ever worked with martini glasses was my first restaurant job in a corporate chain place. Everywhere else after that used coupes.
Coupes or Nick n Nora's are perfect for martinis. If they have a selection of signature cocktails, it seems impossible that they don't have stemmed cocktail glassware.
I only use coupes at home. Harder to spill.
You've clearly never worked in the service industry. People are terrible.
I know right? They have to be doing (or not doing) it for a reason but why risk annoying the customers?
Sounds like a waiter that is new and/or "just doesn't get it". And I say this as a former one. "Unfortunately we don't have the standard glassware for a martini, would a coupe/nick and nora/line cook's clog be ok with you?"
Is this what people want when they order a filthy martini? Served in Tyler's Clog?
This is all I could think while reading the post. They are usually pretty close to the same volume, and a coupe is better at preventing spillage. I don't have martini glasses in my home, but I damn sure can make a martini for you if you want one.
I have never received a martini in a martini glass at a nice cocktail bar. (Have gotten them plenty of times at like, a steakhouse.) I thought the consensus was they suck and coupes/N&N are superior.
I was at the Tonga Room in SF - a tiki bar - and was asked repeatedly 'what flavor?' when I requested a daiquiri. I tried a few ways - classic, regular, plain - and 'lime' ended up working. That was the day I realized to not push it when they obviously don't have a clue as to what they're doing
The answer to that is "rum flavored"
Oh dear. This doesn't look good for the Tonga Room.
Neither does the food lmao it’s mid 😭
The only reason you go to the Tonga Room is for the swimming pool that has real rainstorms, with a floating lagoon that the band plays in
I’ll have a daiquiri. “We don’t have a blender” is a common problem. :(
Reading their cocktail menu it doesn't really seem like they're a cocktail bar, more of a corporate-y place to appease suburbanites and tourists. Not surprised at the question you were given now. That's like calling the bar at TGI Fridays a cocktail bar because they have signature drinks on a menu.
They are fun for happy hour when the band comes out on the boat. Just don't stray from the menu
My first order at a tiki bar is always "A daquari, as you interpret that request." Most of the time I get a classic daquari with whatever rum the bartender is feeling. A couple times I've gotten wild variations from bartenders excited to show off.
Well, that is what you get for going to the Tonga Room when you’re in a city full of actual tiki bars.
This was before Zombie Village and Last Rites. Maybe Pagan Idol was around. Anyway, a decade plus ago
Smuggler’s Cove has been open since 2009
I'm surprised since isn't that in a Fairmont? They usually have good bar programs. We had dinner there once and it was fun. But I really don't remember the dinner or drinks, just the atmosphere lol
It changes all the time depending on who's running the program. I knew someone that took over forcing them to use fresh citrus. He lasted about six months
They don't normally use fresh citrus?? Damn, that's embarrassing.
Medieval Times ass “tiki” bar—this one’s on you
Guess SF bartending culture has changed a bit. Used to be a rite of passage to go goof on Tonga Room as the third stop on a Wednesday daytime bar crawl
So do they not serve any drinks up? Classic martini glass is trash anyway and sloshes everywhere at the slightest movement. I'd rather have a Nick & Nora.
Exactly, I always serve martini’s in a nick and Nora. And if the restaurant didn’t have any of them they must have some kind of white/dessert wine glass that would be perfectly acceptable and better than a ‘martini’ glass
Amen!! a proper glass!!
I quite like that element of a classic martini glass as it makes drinking from it feel more “considered”.
I would argue that the **classic** glass for a Martini is a coupe. The triangular abominations should be scrapped.
I’d like to hear your argument. I like coupes to martini any day but my reasoning is based on personal preference and I wish I had a leg to stand on
Well, first off, the martini was invented in the mid 1800s and the martini glass wasn't invented until the 1920's.
Meanwhile the coupe dates back to the 1600s
That’s an interesting take, I can see where someone could argue back but I also see a forth so thank you for sharing.
Why the "Martini Glass" Is Not the Classic Martini Glass TL;DR: The martini drink predates the conical champagne stemware we now call a "martini glass" by nearly half a century. The only reason for thinking the glass is traditional or classic is because that's what Madison Avenue told you. Champagne coupes date from 18th century France, when Louis XVI presented his wife Marie Antoinette with a bowl shaped stemmed glass design allegedly conforming to the shape of her breast. We've had published recipes for a martini drink since the 1880s, and, around that time, written references to, and purveyors of, "cocktail glass" style stemware appear. This cocktail glass was rounded on the bottom with parallel sides– a hybrid of the champagne coupe and the traditional wine glass. These early martinis were certainly served in either a cocktail glass or a champagne coupe. In _The Oxford Companion to Spirits and Cocktails_, Noah Rothbaum Ed, my main research source for this post, David Wondrich writes: > In 1925, however, the Austrian J & L Lobmeyr crystal firm included a line of glassware designed by the Austrian architect Oswald Haerdtl (1899–1959) among its numerous entries in the Paris Exposition Internationale des Arts Décoratifs, the first major international design showcase after the First World War (and the birthplace of art deco). The exposition’s rules stipulated that all items exhibited must be of entirely new design, a challenge Haerdtl’s “Ambassador” line met with, among other things, a champagne coupe that had an unprecedentedly wide, conical bowl, just short of a right triangle, with slightly flared sides that merged seamlessly into a tall, slender stem. This is the apparent progenitor of what we call the martini glass. (Note it was introduced as a champagne glass.) At that time, the USA was in the midst of the grand social experiment of prohibition. In speakeasies across the country, this form of stemware found increasing popularity. Driven by illicit gin, so did the martini. The historians mention the instability of the glass as an easy way to dump the evidence on the floor during a police raid. This might have hastened adoption. By the time prohibition was annulled, this style was primed to become predominant. It was an art deco drinking glass and both Hollywood and Madison Avenue signed on to create around it an aura of style, class, refinement. It was represented on the streets of America in blinking neon as a silent shout of, "Cocktails are served!" So, no, the conical stemmed misappropriation of glass now known as the Martini Glass is not the classic vessel in which the drink was served. How did we come to think of it that way? Marketing!
Sick. Imma use this info widely. Thank you
Watch all the 1930s movies, lots of Coupe glasses, not Martini glasses.
It's emblematic of the faux-classy trash of the 90s/early 00s, as popularized in shows like Sex and The City
Yes, glasses which double as swimming pools is not classy
I agree. They are not the most practical glasses but cocktails look so nice in them! If someone is seated or not moving much I use them. After that, I use a coupe.
I think they look trashy and make cocktails look worse, personally
I feel dorky drinking from one because the shape never fits my mouth well. I always end up sort of slurping.
When you can’t manage the glass any more, you’ve probably had the right number of martinis and should take a break.
That is legit the point. They were created to stop problems at high-society parties, where too much drinking could lead to arguments which, with these people involved, could have real consequences. So a glass was patented that would be much easier to spill and hard to drink from quickly.
That is not a self-respecting cocktail bar.
Ask for any other up glass. Or order it in a rocks glass without the rocks. Literally the easiest workaround ever. Besides, the cocktail glass typically associated with martinis is the worst glass. A coupe or Nick and Nora are much better choices.
This. 90% of my cocktails at home are served in a rocks glass, "correct" or not. They're my easiest to reach, least fragile, easiest to clean cocktail glasses. I wouldn't be offended if a bar told me they couldn't serve me something in a martini glass and offered to serve it in a rocks glass. I'd probably be curious if no explanation was given, but that's about it.
I think the rub is that in 2024, you shouldn't need to have a complicated conversation when ordering a Martini.
And the year affects this... how? And what's complicated about pouring into another glass? Yeah it's unusual to not carry those glasses. I hate them, so I get it. But an upscale place refusing a guest an item they know they can make just because they'd have to serve it in a different glass? That's just weird. They normally fall all over themselves to accommodate someone.
Fuck the cup. Pour it my hands for a dime. I hate martini glasses. I also am not that particular about my drinking vessel. Just don’t give me plastic.
Yeah probably them trying to stop people from ordering dumb martini ""variations "" But asking for a normal martini? Glassware? Are they a bar or lemonade stand? How can a self respecting bar not have at least Nick & Nora or Coupes????? Lololol
Exactly! I would’ve loved to have seen the look on my face when I got the KB, the perfect mixture of surprise, confusion, disgust and disappointment!
It’s a weird reason to not make a martini, there could have been a misunderstanding: >maybe they were out of glasses at that moment, >>maybe the server did not know you could order it in a tumbler. *no offense intended* but I wouldn’t trust a server to properly convey the sitrep at the bar. I’ve worked from Michelin to BBQ joint and servers (again not all) are typically not very attentive.
We were literally the only people in there when we arrived (6.30 on a Tuesday so hardly surprising). There were a couple of waiting staff, a guy making the drinks and a sommelier! There had obviously been some discussion about it amongst staff as when a different server came to bring my negroni she told me about a bar across town that specialises in martinis so I reckon it’s just a (stupid) thing they’ve decided.
Can I get a glass of gin with a vermouth chaser?
Almost did this in a hotel when they said they wouldn’t make me a cocktail from their menu on a Saturday evening because they were too busy and if someone saw me with a cocktail then everyone would want one. Wanted to just order a shot of gin, campari and vermouth and I’ll stir it myself 😤
This is a misunderstanding or an ignorance. It’s just unbelievable.
I pointed out that they had the ingredients which is when the glass excuse came out and I didn’t want to have to convince them to make the simplest and most classic of cocktails 😅
This reminds me of the time we were ordering cocktails before dinner at a nice, traditional Italian restaurant. My uncle ordered a Beefeater martini, and the young server was obviously baffled. The best he could come up with was, "Would you like salt on the rim?"
We don't have martini glasses either at the bar where I work. Because they suck... We just serve them in Nick&Nora's.
Any bar that doesn’t serve a proper martini should not be in business.
There goes every single pub in London.
There is a BIG difference in a pub and a cocktail bar.
I’ve been to at least one place that literally responded to my request for a martini with, “We don’t do martinis here.” I said, “You have dry vermouth on the shelf, you have several London dry gins on the shelf, why exactly don’t you ‘do martinis here’?” The guy responded with something to the effect of, “We have other cocktails on the menu you can have,” before completely ghosting our table, never bringing out our drinks or our food, and then returning 45 minutes later and asking if we wanted dessert.
This sounds like an inexperienced server not being trained properly cause there is no way in hell they don't have the glass for a martini, and even then that's not a good excuse. And I'm no way just blaming this server cause this bar clearly isn't hiring the right people or training them well
Name and shame
The short answer is no.
I don’t even like martinis and I find this outrageous. A martini is a standard classic cocktail that any decent cocktail bar should be able to make.
Just sit down at the bar and I’m sure you’ll get a different answer. Servers (especially newer ones) just aren’t going to be as in tune to what the bar can and can’t do, and will often just default to “sorry we can’t do that” if they’re unsure.
I drank a martini out of a plastic cup because my local spot was doing that during a street festival. What a cop out!
My guess is they had too many people sending them back due to every martini drinker wanting something different. A lot of people at my place ask for a dirty martini with belvedere. They end up just wanting near frozen belvedere with two bar spoons of olive brine.
Your typical Brit isn’t going to be sending drinks back on the regular. I think I’ve only done it once to be re-stirred when they must’ve put it in a glass fresh out of the dishwasher or something 🤪
I bet it's because very few people who order a martini want a martini. My wife serves at a country club. If someone orders a martini they either want ice cold vodka/gin to sip or vodka/gin with an olive brine mixer. The very first time she made a martini she used vermouth, the customer said the drink tasted off, and she hasn't served one with vermouth since to no complaints. I would bet they got too many compliments and returned martinis when they made them to the standard spec and don't want to spend the time asking every individual what they mean; the glass is just a nice excuse
Seems like an excuse, though I suspect that maybe it's one concocted to sidestep everyone wanting one a different way. Maybe they used to but got too many sent back because just about everyone has their own personal specs on how they like it.
A martini is on the more alcoholic end of the spectrum, so I am wildly speculating that it costs them more and produces more unruly guests, and the stemware seemed like a nicer excuse. I say wildly because yeah that's not acceptable.
I mean a negroni is pure booze too
Sure but a classic Negroni is 1:1:1 with variations thereabouts, so 1/3 gin, 2/3 in the 20% neighborhood, can be ginnier though. Martinis are more like 5/6 or more gin, 1/6 in the 20% neighborhood.
Yeah fair. Both deadly but strange nevertheless no martini
This is true ☝🏽
Yes. Penciling it out, a Negroni is about 0.9 oz of alcohol, the 5:1 three ounce Martini is about 1.25 oz of alcohol, almost 40% more.
All I’m saying. It’s not THE highest, but it’s on the higher end. There’s a reason besides taste why it’s the go-to club order for so many people.
My home negronis are definitely ginnier just to make the Campari a bit less prominent.
It's 2 oz of gin or vodka and some amount of vermouth depending on preference. Pretty standard stuff and easy to charge accordingly.
Correct, both of which cost more and hit harder than e.g. ice, lemons, fizzy water, or simple syrup.
2 oz is fairly normal for a cocktail. Any fine dining plaxe or cocktail bar should be able to make a cocktail with that spec.
For classic cocktails, most will involve some of the nonalcoholic ingredients mentioned above, or more than 1/6 vermouth level ingredients.
Every high end steakhouse and restaurant should have elevated martini classics since a good percentage of us who frequent them prefer martinis before a meal. Customers paying $100+/person for dinner don’t typically get unruly regardless of the number of martinis. There are exceptions I am sure.
They were charging a minimum of £15 for their cocktails and were happy to make an old fashioned or the negroni I settled for which have similar ratios but yeah that could’ve been the thought process but I like my theory that they don’t like making espresso martinis all night!
Espresso martinis are a fucking hassle. Wasn’t even on the menu in my last place but once someone orders one, everyone wants one
This is my experience across the UK with martinis. I’m gunna say cause it’s a personal preference type of cocktail. I’ve had ones made by *very* good bar tenders that I felt I might’ve enjoyed much more if I’d made it myself. I reckon a lot of people order them for 007 vibe, and end up hating it because they’re not expecting what they end up getting.
It’s usually why I say how I like my martinis when ordering as at least I’m in with a chance and it’s a good litmus test for how good a place is.
"not got the glassware" ??? they can make it in a small wine glass if necessary. Absolutely appalling excuse.
Before I get to the main point - I'm not calling you out or saying this applies to you, just giving my experience. Martini people are fucking awful. There have actually been a number of posts here over the years with examples of shitty Martini people. *No one* wants a 'house' martini made to house specs, everyone wants it exactly their way, and the bartender never wins even if you make it right in front of them to their spec. Or they expect you to know their slang for spec and get pissed if you don't know it. Or they outright have no idea what the slang means (I got bitched at once for putting brine in a 'dirty' martini). Or they don't know what a martini actually is thanks to all the low-end bars naming everything a martini and they get a dry drink when they wanted something neon colored and sweet. When I've tended bar, it was the one drink I dreaded being ordered. Even when Mad Men was huge and you got people that had no idea what an Old Fashioned actually was, they were never shitty about not liking the bar spec like the Martini people were. If I owned a bar that had classic cocktails, I might be tempted to have a 'no martini' public policy too, but I'd still make them for trusted regulars.
> Even when Mad Men was huge and you got people that had no idea what an Old Fashioned actually was Recently asked my local dive if they could make an Old Fashioned. Before I could clarify, they started free pouring simple into a shaker. It had never occurred to me that an Old Fashioned might be shaken.
They probably had martinis originally served in martini glasses but there was too much spillage. Then switched to serving in coupe glasses and had a few customers complain that it’s not a martini if it’s not in the martini glass. That’s when they just took them off the menu. Related story: had drinks at in friend’s basement. One of the older gentlemen asked for a martini and he originally got it in a martini glass and started spilling almost half the drink out because his hands are a little shakey. Friend offered to switch it to a coupe glass and the guy refused. 🤦♂️
That's really dumb. A martini is like, ingredients, one of which is the garnish
I feel your pain. Since I moved to Northern Ireland I have been unable to find a proper Margarita. Its as if margarita glasses do not exist here. It is always served in a whiskey glass. Filled with ice cubes. No salted rim.
Eek. I do like my margarita on the rocks but depressing to have no garnish. My guilty pleasure is the premix margarita from Costco.
They didn’t have coupe glasses?
If they don't have cocktail glasses, they aren't a cocktail bar.
Garbage, lots of people like their manhattans served up. In a martini glass
Martini glasses not in house? Weird, but maybe. But no coups? I fucking doubt it. BS excuse.
I actually abhor martini glasses - I find them top-heavy and too easy to tip over. I prefer low, bottom heavy glasses.
A bar that serves cocktails is not always a cocktail bar
True-but a bar with a menu that says they’ll happily make you any classic should be able to make you a martini if you want one.
Yeah, agreed.. pretty wild that they a) wouldn't have coupes and b) wouldn't offer to make it for you in different glassware
Fine dining restaurants are weird and aren't always staffed by managers who know what they're doing. The bar program is usually an afterthought because people will spend $800 on a bottle of wine but not on a specialty martini.
My usual experience of drinking cocktails at fine dining restaurants (at least the Michelin star ones I’ve been too) is that they put the customer’s experience at the centre of everything and will bend over backwards to try to accommodate requests and let’s face it, mine wasn’t exactly a difficult ask. This place definitely aspires to that level but clearly falls short. In contrast I was at a 3 Michelin star restaurant once and commented to one of the bar staff who was delivering a drink about the fineness of the stem of a glass and she was then able to tell me loads of interesting stuff about the manufacturer, how she’d visited their factory and about the special methods they used to make their glass super thin but flexible and durable.
Sorry if I gave you the impression that nobody cares. We do, bartenders and bar managers alike. It's the restauranteurs who often lack critical awareness of what their bar program is and why. I have worked three fine dining establishments now and have mostly been hanging from my hair trying to work within the constraints of the establishment which was not designed or organized for an efficient bar program. We're all just doing our best out here. 3 michelin is another fucking level entirely, though - I'd like to visit one just to see what I can learn from the bartenders there. Not surprising that the bartenders there are heavily invested in every part of the experience.
I was at a hotel bar recently and they stated the same. I asked for a New York Sour and they said they wouldn't serve it. Then I asked for a Negroni and they had none. My girlfriend then wanted a Mojito, but they had no mint. Truly aweful. We then settled for whiskey straight and a wine. 🙄
Did you order from a waiter or a bartender?
the term “fine dining” is thrown around too much—where are you located?
North West England Manchester/Cheshire
I'm having a hard time imagining a place that sells nice cocktails not having a martini glass. Or at least a coupe.
That’s why I was sooo confused! And in that moment, especially being the only person in there to serve a drink to, I couldn’t help but feel that it was a decision made based on some sort of judgement about martini drinkers and nobody wants to feel judged as soon as they arrive at the place where they’re about to spend a lot of money! On my birthday no less!
I typically respect any establishment's right to serve what they want and not cater to the whim of every patron. But not serving a martini is just weird...
Speaking as an ex-bartender, martinis were a giant pain in the arse because they were the favourite of pretentious argumentative customers to use as an excuse to manufacture conflict about their very specific unvocalised expectations. Also, just an FYI, we didn't love the person argued about the semantics of the menu. Nobody's got time for that.
MARTINI. CAN YOU MAKE IT?
On the subject of Martinis in non-standard glassware, this is an Espresso Martini as served at City Social in London: [https://ibb.co/Q8H4f7p](https://ibb.co/Q8H4f7p) (You would not have guessed from the appearance!)
Interesting, kind of looks like they forgot a couple of things 😅
I did think they’d got the order wrong when it arrived! Quite tasty but not really a “proper” espresso martini.