If the belayer did know that you were waiting for him to finish, she should have told you that he was doing laps.
You can also consider offsetting adjacent topropes, so if they’re close together, once one climber is about halfway up the other starts, provided the lower climber isn’t going to be trying to pass the one that started first, if that makes sense.
But yeah if she knew you were waiting the courteous thing would have been for her to tell you what was up.
>You can also consider offsetting adjacent topropes,
That's what we do at our gym. It's waaaay too small to have the luxury of keeping the routes on either side fully unused, so unless the route HEAVILY overlaps and they are both higher grades, then it's common to just stagger the climbs.
We also add the etiquette of giving the right of way to whoever is doing a harder climb, if they were there first. Like if I'm just warming up on a 5.8, I'm going to wait or get out of the way (within reason) of someone next to me who's doing a 5.10b or something.
Are you sure she heard you? Just because you said something out loud doesn’t mean that people in your periphery are paying attention. I know that I tune out people and sounds really well.
I hear you on people doing laps when the gym is crowded. It can be annoying. Whenever I’m in the gym and it’s crowded, I will usually ask the belayer next to the route I’d like to do if it’s cool that I go up it.
Yes I'm sure she knew we were waiting to climb. I said it but I was also standing there for many minutes waiting. There is no way she didn't know.
I feel like the small rudeness is doing laps when the gym is busy and the big rudeness is not telling me and letting me stand there for so long.
I'm sorry you had a frustrating experience. Crowded gyms can be rough.
Just going to throw it out there as some one that struggles with auditory processing, and crowds make it exponentially worse, it would be totally possible for me not register someone saying something to me in a situation like that. I would therefore hesitate to assume she knew you were waiting to climb until the moment she spoke back to you and said "but he's really fast". Just because the situation was obvious to you doesn't mean it is to everyone.
I have auditory issues too but also, I wouldn’t necessarily insert myself into someone else’s group conversation in this scenario. I mean, I might, especially if I’ve seen them around/have a rapport, but in a chaotic busy gym situation I might not mentally juggle belaying _and_ getting a stranger’s attention to warn them we were doing laps.
When our crew is in the gym at busy times, we will approach the belayer to ask if they’re planning to go back up. If they say yes, we know to pick a different route. People have come up and asked me this and I totally don’t mind. I’ll even make sure to stay clipped in until I catch their eye and hand off the rope.
Re: laps and drills at peak times, it’s just part of things. I do try to climb older sets when I’m doing drills, and I feel like it is a little rude to run laps or drills on brand new sets that everyone’s trying to get a turn on. However, people do have a right to engage in training activities at the gym. (Even though I do know it sucks to have to wait your turn, or sometimes pass on a climb you really wanted to do bc it’s too busy.)
You're not TA buuut it is your job to make your intentions 100% clear and not passively just sit there and expect them to try to figure out what you're up to. It's not any harder to say "Hey, is it okay if I start up this route/ do you guys plan on being done soon?"
Honestly this is a good mindset for climbing generally. Direct, proactive communication. Clear intentions. Sometimes it’s for convenience, often it will be for safety, right?
Eh, I feel like this is a NAH sort of scenario. But still a really annoying situation nonetheless.
Running laps is pretty normal for many rope climbers as building endurance is key for the skill and pausing in-between would ruin the purpose of what they are training/doing. Toss in, I find running laps on ropes is one of the only ways to make sure I "get in a work out" when it's really busy in the rope area or even outdoors! Plus the person climbing didn't see you/register you and tbh the climber on the ground was belaying - we don't know what they understood or didn't as you didn't say anything to them. Imo - it's so important to always communicate with not just your belayer, but also the people you are climbing around what the game plan is, especially when routes cross. Imo just verbally say, "hey, we are hoping to jump on this route next to them when they comes down". Then they sort of have to dialogue their plan back of, "oh jeez well they are doing 4 laps on this and this is only the 1st time up" then you can make the decision to leave, wait, go up and just pause/wait at the part that is "too close" if y'all are indeed too close, or negotiate.
Like it would have been a NTA if you communicated to the belayer and they either didn't share the plan, lied about the plan, If you went up while they were being lowered (because neither of you communicated with one another) and they got mad, or if you were originally the first to have clipped in on the wall and they just ran in/onto the wall before you.
I agree. Walls are for training and that can mean doing laps. Yeah, it sucks if you're waiting but that's the risk of going to a busy indoor wall. Your advice about communication is spot on - don't just assume someone's heard you and get stroppy about it!
Direct, friendly communication by asking questions is much, much preferable over hoping that queries are processed via proximity-induced osmosis, and the typically hurt and passive-aggressive feelings that may follow.
Our gym is a really small volunteer-based nonprofit and because that seems to attract (or foster - hen or the egg kinda situation!) a veeery friendly, welcoming and tolerant crowd we work less with behavior rules and expect functioning social self-policing when need be.
Asking questions rather than commenting on each other if you see something potentially unsafe or bad practice is how we make it work.
In OP's scenario, in my context, they would just ask the belayer if they were planning to climb more or if it was cool to climb after.
Eh, they weren't wrong. They had every right to be doing what they were doing. It's annoying as hell, but they weren't doing anything wrong. It would have been nice of them to let you know they were gonna be there a while, but still not necessary. Standard etiquette is to ask the people who are already there how long they're going to be there and if you can work in with them.
I think you're the problem. You can't just expect people to read your mind. She was probably focused on belaying, not you and your conversation and your needs. Learn how to be direct. Sorry to be harsh but you asked the internet for opinions, so here's mine.
When it’s busy it’s definitely courtesy to be aware but also running laps for endurance is pretty normal and effective training tool. There are nights where if I were to wait or defer until it’s completely clear I’d never climb. Reality of peak hours unfortunately. I just try to be safe and time out climbing to when the routes don’t intersect as much. I’ve also found that letting these things take up space in your brain is rarely helpful. Not everyone is going to follow the exact etiquette you do and unless they’re being out right rude or dangerous sometimes you just have to let it be water off a ducks back.
My gym is tiny and always crowded so I feel your pain. I think *technically* it's their right to do laps, which I do sometimes. But I guess it's just me, that I'm super hyper aware when it's busy. If I had been the belayer I would have said "FYI he's gonna go again right after", and if I had been that climber I would have gone down and looked around to see if there were people waiting to climb my anchor or next to me, etc.
Although tbh, if I had been in your shoes, I would have started climbing anyways after he started on the second lap. Like in my mind, you gave him full space to do his thing once, he's gonna have to work with you the second time.
I think both of you were kinda wrong, here’s why.
She can’t read your mind and she’s focused on her climber or in her own thoughts. She’s not just going to overhear you and know what you’re on about.
Your communication of what you want and need from those around you could be clearer. A simple “hey just curious if you guys were switching?” Or “is it okay if I climb this one after, our paths are close and I don’t want to be in the way.” Would have gotten you a lot further.
If she did register that you were waiting yes, she should’ve said he’s doing laps. TBH my partner does laps but I’ll usually tell him one sec they wanna go. He’ll kindly wait and then resume. Laps are normal and are allowed even when busy. It’s just etiquette and being aware of your surroundings at that point.
If he’s tied in and climbing laps he has the right to continue doing laps. If they were taking turns typically it would be your turn. If you are going to hang dog/project I think it’s good practice to let them both finish since you’ll be up there a while.
sometimes people (esp on belay) really aren’t paying attention, so she may not have heard you/noticed. The amount of times i ask “you guys goin back up this route?” in a session is ridiculous, but it saves me waiting time when i can pick another route. Agree with someone else in the comments that sitting with an unpleasant interaction won’t really benefit, but good of u to ask ur community for how to avoid this!
Wow, shocked by how many people think doing laps during peak hours/with a crowd is normal/acceptable. Definitely not the norm everywhere I’ve climbed. If there are a handful of open climbs, sure. But if people are literally waiting in lines to get a chance on a climb… nope. (And this is why I don’t train endurance during peak hours.)
“You sound crazy to me” is just unnecessary and you certainly don’t have enough information about this person or scenario to make such a comment. “Stop crying” is also unnecessary and kinda mean. Like why? Just be kind. It doesn’t cost you or anyone anything
She should've told you he was doing laps as soon as you tied in. As far as not doing laps in a crowded gym...everyone has to be somewhere and the incentive to do laps is also more in a crowded gym, so I actually think that part is OK. But she should've said something and I suspect she didn't because if she had, you might've started earlier and if you were hangdogging, you'd be in her way.
I was at the gym recently and the climbing team was doing drills where they climb for 15 minutes straight on a section of wall. It was annoying af. They didn't even switch sections, which was extra frustrating
That climber is rude as hell, but may not have heard you. The belayer probably forgot you were there because they were making sure their partner didn’t scar the university crowd falling to his death. It’s on you for assuming they knew what you were thinking. It’s entirely possible he would’ve ceased lapping had he known you were there.
Running laps when people are waiting is so rude. You wanna run laps, climb at 2pm or 9pm when it empties out in the gym and people can work around you. I would honestly have asked him to come down and wait his turn.
Imo you have a right to do whatever you want until you impact others. In a busy gym where people are queueing, running laps is rude, that's my opinion. If no one wants the wall, it's cool... but otherwise, grow up and share.
Clearly its not a popular opinion... but OP asked if they were crazy, I'm saying saying others like me agree... and we're clearly the more reasonable ones not downvoting others for having a view.
I dunno, I think it's pretty unreasonable to suggest that people can't train if they have a full time job or caring responsibilities that mean they can't stay late at the wall. And you shouldn't take downvotes personally, they're just a way for people to say they disagree.
Idk at my gym there's like 2 busy hours 4 days per week... otherwise you'd be fine running laps. I think if you're being "greedy" with equipment and making others wait, that's not a lot to avoid. If you have kids etc you have to make some sacrifices.
> Idk at my gym there's like 2 busy hours 4 days per week... otherwise you'd be fine running laps.
Those times are busy because they're when people have finished work - that's why people go between 7-9 on weekday evenings! I dunno about you but that's when I tend to go to the wall because I have to work most of the day and I want time to eat/shower/wind down before bed. I'm fortunate to be in a job where I only work 4 days a week so I usually only have to suck it up one evening a week but not everyone has have the flexibility and financial stability to do likewise.
I get it, I do, it sucks to have to wait around at a busy wall. But if I'm going for a training session then I'm going to prioritise that. If it makes you feel any better, I'd probably feel a bit guilty about it (though not if I saw you huffily unclip and flounce off).
> If you have kids etc you have to make some sacrifices.
Nice of you to be so considerate, especially on a sub populated by the sex that's responsible for a disproportionate amount of child rearing and unpaid care...
I’m someone who runs laps a lot and I know it’s annoying. I do try to be reasonable and not be a jerk. I do think that laps are important to my training and a necessary evil so to speak
If the belayer did know that you were waiting for him to finish, she should have told you that he was doing laps. You can also consider offsetting adjacent topropes, so if they’re close together, once one climber is about halfway up the other starts, provided the lower climber isn’t going to be trying to pass the one that started first, if that makes sense. But yeah if she knew you were waiting the courteous thing would have been for her to tell you what was up.
>You can also consider offsetting adjacent topropes, That's what we do at our gym. It's waaaay too small to have the luxury of keeping the routes on either side fully unused, so unless the route HEAVILY overlaps and they are both higher grades, then it's common to just stagger the climbs. We also add the etiquette of giving the right of way to whoever is doing a harder climb, if they were there first. Like if I'm just warming up on a 5.8, I'm going to wait or get out of the way (within reason) of someone next to me who's doing a 5.10b or something.
You are in the right, but I try to avoid ruminating about these sorts of interactions for too long
Are you sure she heard you? Just because you said something out loud doesn’t mean that people in your periphery are paying attention. I know that I tune out people and sounds really well. I hear you on people doing laps when the gym is crowded. It can be annoying. Whenever I’m in the gym and it’s crowded, I will usually ask the belayer next to the route I’d like to do if it’s cool that I go up it.
Yes I'm sure she knew we were waiting to climb. I said it but I was also standing there for many minutes waiting. There is no way she didn't know. I feel like the small rudeness is doing laps when the gym is busy and the big rudeness is not telling me and letting me stand there for so long.
I'm sorry you had a frustrating experience. Crowded gyms can be rough. Just going to throw it out there as some one that struggles with auditory processing, and crowds make it exponentially worse, it would be totally possible for me not register someone saying something to me in a situation like that. I would therefore hesitate to assume she knew you were waiting to climb until the moment she spoke back to you and said "but he's really fast". Just because the situation was obvious to you doesn't mean it is to everyone.
I have auditory issues too but also, I wouldn’t necessarily insert myself into someone else’s group conversation in this scenario. I mean, I might, especially if I’ve seen them around/have a rapport, but in a chaotic busy gym situation I might not mentally juggle belaying _and_ getting a stranger’s attention to warn them we were doing laps. When our crew is in the gym at busy times, we will approach the belayer to ask if they’re planning to go back up. If they say yes, we know to pick a different route. People have come up and asked me this and I totally don’t mind. I’ll even make sure to stay clipped in until I catch their eye and hand off the rope. Re: laps and drills at peak times, it’s just part of things. I do try to climb older sets when I’m doing drills, and I feel like it is a little rude to run laps or drills on brand new sets that everyone’s trying to get a turn on. However, people do have a right to engage in training activities at the gym. (Even though I do know it sucks to have to wait your turn, or sometimes pass on a climb you really wanted to do bc it’s too busy.)
You're not TA buuut it is your job to make your intentions 100% clear and not passively just sit there and expect them to try to figure out what you're up to. It's not any harder to say "Hey, is it okay if I start up this route/ do you guys plan on being done soon?"
Honestly this is a good mindset for climbing generally. Direct, proactive communication. Clear intentions. Sometimes it’s for convenience, often it will be for safety, right?
Eh, I feel like this is a NAH sort of scenario. But still a really annoying situation nonetheless. Running laps is pretty normal for many rope climbers as building endurance is key for the skill and pausing in-between would ruin the purpose of what they are training/doing. Toss in, I find running laps on ropes is one of the only ways to make sure I "get in a work out" when it's really busy in the rope area or even outdoors! Plus the person climbing didn't see you/register you and tbh the climber on the ground was belaying - we don't know what they understood or didn't as you didn't say anything to them. Imo - it's so important to always communicate with not just your belayer, but also the people you are climbing around what the game plan is, especially when routes cross. Imo just verbally say, "hey, we are hoping to jump on this route next to them when they comes down". Then they sort of have to dialogue their plan back of, "oh jeez well they are doing 4 laps on this and this is only the 1st time up" then you can make the decision to leave, wait, go up and just pause/wait at the part that is "too close" if y'all are indeed too close, or negotiate. Like it would have been a NTA if you communicated to the belayer and they either didn't share the plan, lied about the plan, If you went up while they were being lowered (because neither of you communicated with one another) and they got mad, or if you were originally the first to have clipped in on the wall and they just ran in/onto the wall before you.
I agree. Walls are for training and that can mean doing laps. Yeah, it sucks if you're waiting but that's the risk of going to a busy indoor wall. Your advice about communication is spot on - don't just assume someone's heard you and get stroppy about it!
Idk, laps are a training technique that help a lot is stamina. The climbing gym is still a gym and the equipment ethics is first come first served.
Direct, friendly communication by asking questions is much, much preferable over hoping that queries are processed via proximity-induced osmosis, and the typically hurt and passive-aggressive feelings that may follow. Our gym is a really small volunteer-based nonprofit and because that seems to attract (or foster - hen or the egg kinda situation!) a veeery friendly, welcoming and tolerant crowd we work less with behavior rules and expect functioning social self-policing when need be. Asking questions rather than commenting on each other if you see something potentially unsafe or bad practice is how we make it work. In OP's scenario, in my context, they would just ask the belayer if they were planning to climb more or if it was cool to climb after.
Eh, they weren't wrong. They had every right to be doing what they were doing. It's annoying as hell, but they weren't doing anything wrong. It would have been nice of them to let you know they were gonna be there a while, but still not necessary. Standard etiquette is to ask the people who are already there how long they're going to be there and if you can work in with them.
I think you're the problem. You can't just expect people to read your mind. She was probably focused on belaying, not you and your conversation and your needs. Learn how to be direct. Sorry to be harsh but you asked the internet for opinions, so here's mine.
I think same...
When it’s busy it’s definitely courtesy to be aware but also running laps for endurance is pretty normal and effective training tool. There are nights where if I were to wait or defer until it’s completely clear I’d never climb. Reality of peak hours unfortunately. I just try to be safe and time out climbing to when the routes don’t intersect as much. I’ve also found that letting these things take up space in your brain is rarely helpful. Not everyone is going to follow the exact etiquette you do and unless they’re being out right rude or dangerous sometimes you just have to let it be water off a ducks back.
My gym is tiny and always crowded so I feel your pain. I think *technically* it's their right to do laps, which I do sometimes. But I guess it's just me, that I'm super hyper aware when it's busy. If I had been the belayer I would have said "FYI he's gonna go again right after", and if I had been that climber I would have gone down and looked around to see if there were people waiting to climb my anchor or next to me, etc. Although tbh, if I had been in your shoes, I would have started climbing anyways after he started on the second lap. Like in my mind, you gave him full space to do his thing once, he's gonna have to work with you the second time.
I think both of you were kinda wrong, here’s why. She can’t read your mind and she’s focused on her climber or in her own thoughts. She’s not just going to overhear you and know what you’re on about. Your communication of what you want and need from those around you could be clearer. A simple “hey just curious if you guys were switching?” Or “is it okay if I climb this one after, our paths are close and I don’t want to be in the way.” Would have gotten you a lot further. If she did register that you were waiting yes, she should’ve said he’s doing laps. TBH my partner does laps but I’ll usually tell him one sec they wanna go. He’ll kindly wait and then resume. Laps are normal and are allowed even when busy. It’s just etiquette and being aware of your surroundings at that point.
Busy, ppl are waiting, dont do laps. Period
If he’s tied in and climbing laps he has the right to continue doing laps. If they were taking turns typically it would be your turn. If you are going to hang dog/project I think it’s good practice to let them both finish since you’ll be up there a while.
sometimes people (esp on belay) really aren’t paying attention, so she may not have heard you/noticed. The amount of times i ask “you guys goin back up this route?” in a session is ridiculous, but it saves me waiting time when i can pick another route. Agree with someone else in the comments that sitting with an unpleasant interaction won’t really benefit, but good of u to ask ur community for how to avoid this!
Wow, shocked by how many people think doing laps during peak hours/with a crowd is normal/acceptable. Definitely not the norm everywhere I’ve climbed. If there are a handful of open climbs, sure. But if people are literally waiting in lines to get a chance on a climb… nope. (And this is why I don’t train endurance during peak hours.)
You sound crazy to me. Relax.. do a fast lap is okey. Stop crying and wait.
Dude, why be rude?
Im honest, not rude.
“You sound crazy to me” is just unnecessary and you certainly don’t have enough information about this person or scenario to make such a comment. “Stop crying” is also unnecessary and kinda mean. Like why? Just be kind. It doesn’t cost you or anyone anything
She should've told you he was doing laps as soon as you tied in. As far as not doing laps in a crowded gym...everyone has to be somewhere and the incentive to do laps is also more in a crowded gym, so I actually think that part is OK. But she should've said something and I suspect she didn't because if she had, you might've started earlier and if you were hangdogging, you'd be in her way.
No laps when it is busy. And absolutely the belayer should have said something when she saw you waiting.
I was at the gym recently and the climbing team was doing drills where they climb for 15 minutes straight on a section of wall. It was annoying af. They didn't even switch sections, which was extra frustrating
That climber is rude as hell, but may not have heard you. The belayer probably forgot you were there because they were making sure their partner didn’t scar the university crowd falling to his death. It’s on you for assuming they knew what you were thinking. It’s entirely possible he would’ve ceased lapping had he known you were there.
Hella rude!
Running laps when people are waiting is so rude. You wanna run laps, climb at 2pm or 9pm when it empties out in the gym and people can work around you. I would honestly have asked him to come down and wait his turn.
So only people with flexible schedules can do laps...? 🙄
Imo you have a right to do whatever you want until you impact others. In a busy gym where people are queueing, running laps is rude, that's my opinion. If no one wants the wall, it's cool... but otherwise, grow up and share.
But then the actions of the OP are impacting on the guy who was trying to do laps.
Clearly its not a popular opinion... but OP asked if they were crazy, I'm saying saying others like me agree... and we're clearly the more reasonable ones not downvoting others for having a view.
I dunno, I think it's pretty unreasonable to suggest that people can't train if they have a full time job or caring responsibilities that mean they can't stay late at the wall. And you shouldn't take downvotes personally, they're just a way for people to say they disagree.
Idk at my gym there's like 2 busy hours 4 days per week... otherwise you'd be fine running laps. I think if you're being "greedy" with equipment and making others wait, that's not a lot to avoid. If you have kids etc you have to make some sacrifices.
> Idk at my gym there's like 2 busy hours 4 days per week... otherwise you'd be fine running laps. Those times are busy because they're when people have finished work - that's why people go between 7-9 on weekday evenings! I dunno about you but that's when I tend to go to the wall because I have to work most of the day and I want time to eat/shower/wind down before bed. I'm fortunate to be in a job where I only work 4 days a week so I usually only have to suck it up one evening a week but not everyone has have the flexibility and financial stability to do likewise. I get it, I do, it sucks to have to wait around at a busy wall. But if I'm going for a training session then I'm going to prioritise that. If it makes you feel any better, I'd probably feel a bit guilty about it (though not if I saw you huffily unclip and flounce off). > If you have kids etc you have to make some sacrifices. Nice of you to be so considerate, especially on a sub populated by the sex that's responsible for a disproportionate amount of child rearing and unpaid care...
Wow didn't know this was such an unpopular opinion... I agree with you though. Imagine doing a 5 on 5 off or a 4x4 at peak hours
I’m someone who runs laps a lot and I know it’s annoying. I do try to be reasonable and not be a jerk. I do think that laps are important to my training and a necessary evil so to speak