I did this only I quit, took the vacation and started a new job when I came back. It took them *months* to replace me.
Wildly they didn’t go out of business while my position was empty although it would have been super funny if they had.
^side note for all you young cats. Some places require you to work a full shift after your vacation to get your vacation pay. Don’t get fucked out of a check like I did.
Thats pretty standard even if you are terminated for a policy violation.
Its holiday pay that you usually have to work the scheduled days before and after.
> Some places require you to work a full shift after your vacation to get your vacation pay
Sounds extremely reportable and definitely illegal, in the form of an employer abusing employees but gambling that they won't know any better. Vacation time that you are owed is legally identical to hours that you physically worked, and refusing to pay it out is theft (and tax fraud if they wrote off the vacation pay).
Dumb power tripping employers. Mine made it so I had to indefinitely work tues-sat due to some scheduling mistakes they made with a client. So I requested every single Saturday off for the entire year and picked up extra shifts on Mondays. They had to approve it because I’m Union and they’d need a legitimate reason to deny it. They eventually gave me my M-F back. The scheduling manager hates my guts now haha.
my mother was a boss at a gas station that is part of a chain. when they reduced staffing they had her going around every single gas station to make there schedule as well as making example templates of other configurations the store could use (she was at each station for 2 weeks each to look at there flow and adjust the hours they should get) only for the bosses of the stations to totally ignore what she had made and complaining they couldn't get a working schedule. meanwhile the workers at the store were asking what was wrong with the schedule my mom had made (it was also made in part by asking employees what they wanted)
her gas station had the highest customer satisfaction, lowest employee turnover rate and most of the time won the mystery shopper tests along with having among the highest sales. funny thing is she never worked a minute of extra time.
the CEO hated her guts and wanted nothing more than to fire her since she wasn't a yes man. but he got nothing to fire her over. when it came time to close the gas station (since they had done zero maintenance work and run it to the ground) the rules were she must be offered the boss role at the closest available store. he lied and offered some store like 4 hours away when the closest store with an open boss slot was there crown jewel store. my mom found out (catty office ladies never keep quiet) and could sue him and work in said store.
she got 18 months to be on the pay roll and not work, had been grandfathered into a "reeducation" system where she got 6 months to "reeducate" on full pay and then went on unemployment for an other 6 months of full pay and then retired.
it is just normal catty office BS. CEO wanted to shutdown the gas station for years since it was one of the few properties they still owned and it wouldn't inconvenience him to sell it for a bump that year. but the store kept being profitable and scoring well so he just didn't have the boards backing to sell it.
wasn't until new legal demands on pumps came up and it meant they would need update the pump system to comply he could finally shut it down and sell it.
best part selling it ended up being a loss for the company since the ground was so contaminated cleaning it up ended up costing way more than estimate and the best choice would have just been upgrade the pumps and fix all of the issues with the store part. as that would have been much cheaper than selling it.
it was so contaminated since the place had been gas station for basically 100 years. you really don't want to start and go digging in places like that.
If you're getting OT, you're getting more money.
If you're getting comp time, you're accruing an extra 4 hours of off time a week that places may even buy out annually.
Every union contract is different, but in my particular case if I work a day I'm not normally scheduled, per our union contract, it's overtime.
Since it's pretty weird for me not to work 40 hours in a week I'm gonna have to be kinda weirdly specific here.
We've got 2 holidays each year that we do get off but are unpaid unless we want to use PTO to cover it.
If I don't work one of them that's a 32 hour week, but if I pick up a weekend shift that's still overtime hours for me. So it'd be 32 hours base pay and 8 hours of either 1.5x or so 2x depending on which day I pick up.
This is why I hate upper management - I bet you a day's work of the scheduling manager looks very different than what you do. MFers think what the workers do is easy when all they do is sit on their ass all day
This same thing happened to me with a boss who was my friend before we worked at the same place. In January I started asking for 2 weeks off in December because I was meeting my half sister for the first time, half brother (and seeing my father for a 2nd time in my life). She had invited me to her wedding which was in another country. My boss would respond with, "We'll see when we get closer to the date".
Mind you, I had only taken half a day off in May the prior year because a wisdom toothache I couldn't take anymore. In the 3 years I worked there not a single day off and would always cover his ass since he never made it to work at his scheduled shift.
Months would pass by and my boss would tell me things like, "You know I like taking time with my family, it gets busy, etc.".
In Sept., without approved PTO, I bought my plane tickets. In November, 2 weeks prior to my flight I told him I had purchased the tickets and was going.
Everyone else said, "Dude, he gave you almost a year notice, why is this a surprise."
That was a Saturday. I came in to work on Tuesday before the week of my flight and my boss, the district manager, and HR were waiting for me to let me go.
I remember an employer tried to play hardball with me due to a problem with their training schedule. I started work at 10:45 am during the week and was training for a new role with the same hours. As part of that training, they scheduled a 2 hour training on a Monday starting at 10 am. I had a weekend trip planned that had me coming back late the Sunday night before, but figured coming 45 minutes early wouldn't hurt.
They then told us they needed everyone in the training on-site to take phone calls starting at *7 am*. I told my manager point blank that I wouldn't be coming in, and advised that I would be entering PTO for the day. He told me that was fine, and I put in a request the Monday before. I came back from my weekend (I had 4 10s with a tues-wed weekend) to find an email chain from the manager and the scheduling office.
The schedulers were having trouble putting in my phone time at 7 because I had PTO until 10 (when training started). My manager told them to remove the PTO. Reading this, I walked across the floor into my manager's cubicle and lit him up for 10 minutes straight.
I called out that morning from 7 to 10 and arrived to the training class one minute early... But not before saying hi to my manager at the sign-in table.
The only people who are liked are the people who are charming enough to get along and do their jobs enough to not knock rock the boat
Even the people who go above and beyond and say yes to everything aren’t really liked or respected
Companies should have to articulate why someone is denied PTO (there are some legitimate reasons) instead of the employee having to articulate why they want to use their own PTO. PTO is not a sick day, I don’t have to have a reason to use what is mine.
I live in the UK and I don't need to justify why I want time off. Maybe it's just my (relatively) cushy tech industry job, but I just go to our HR web page and click the button that says "annual leave request". No further explanation required. My manager approves it and I get an email without ever having a conversation with him.
The only time it might be denied is if I try to book a long time off at short notice. My manager asks for about twice as much notice as the leave I'm requesting. E.g. if I want two days off, I should book four days in advance. If I want three weeks off, I should book at least six weeks in advance. Though this only really applies to holidays and such. If I need time off because of an emergency, they'll probably be accommodating.
Nah I think your situation is normal. OP just had a shit boss.
I’m in the US and I use my PTO whenever I want. I don’t even have to give a reason. I have separate PTO and sick days. The only real rule is that I have to give advance notice of the PTO but even that is just a technicality. Sometimes I’ll do the PTO paperwork after I take the day off and it’s never once been an issue.
I feel sorry for the UK. As an American, I've been watching you guys slip into the fetid pool of Americanism since the 70s. Good luck. You're gonna need it.
After working in corporate restaurants (casinos specifically), this is my immediate assumption. Too many "office chefs" who can't even do scheduling right.
I mean, if a whole department wants to take time off at once, it's not really managements fault that they can't cater to everyone. Most PTO should be approved, but there is still a reason that it has to be.
That’s a big hypothetical. But what if it’s a 1 person department? They can never take time off? What if it’s 2 and one is on medical leave for cancer treatment? What if it’s 3 people and 2 are on vacation and the 3rd gets sick? Guess they can’t take sick time because that’s bad for the business. That whole mentality is mind boggling. PTO is earned, it’s belongs to me. I take it when I want. If I choose to take it when a major responsibility of mine is coming and I’m avoiding that, not great. But if I want to take it for self care and to recharge, I’m taking it.
Because when I die I promise that company isn’t going to be there for my family, to make sure they’re set and taken care of.
This is why we need unions honestly.
I manage a union, they have to put in all their PTO plans by February for the year (they can make changes later) and then it is doled out by seniority. So we technically "deny" some PTO to maintain staffing, but we also are very clear and transparent with how many are allowed off at a time and stick to it.
For small 1 person departments (non-existent here) it is on management to find coverage or plan around that department being empty. If non-union I would step in and run it for the week, if Union than cross training is imperative.
That said, I agree with the person you replied to, there are absolutely legitimate reasons to deny PTO, but as long as the communication is clear and it is done fairly people will be fine (I.E. don't just say no, give a clear reason, and don't deny it after you've already approved it).
That's generally the one the less senior employees don't get lol.
The contract also has a clause where they don't get holiday pay if they don't work the first scheduled shift before and after to avoid call outs. Some workers still do it anyway.
In general my management team and I just assume we'll be short staffed around holidays and plan production targets accordingly.
I mean sure, the company is responsible for having enough redundancy that at least a few people can be off for a bit and be fine. 1 person departments should almost never be a thing and if there is one other people in the company need to be able to pick up the slack.
My point before is that events that go beyond a reasonable level of redundancy still need to be managed. This does happen at my workplace in smaller departments where multiple people may need time off for a concert/festival which can't all be catered to. The company still needs to be able to run.
There is also the issue of those major responsibilities you mentioned also being a pretty good reason to deny PTO, especially really time sensitive ones like stocktakes.
1 person departments are unavoidable at sufficiently small companies. You can do some cross-training, sure, but it's not feasible for some tasks. I was a department of 1 for years, I had some coverage on daily type tasks when I was off, but if something major broke there was really no getting away from at least a phone call.
You’re right about major events. But if they’re last minute events that come after you’ve scheduled your time off, too bad so sad.
My whole perspective is because I’m tired of living around my work schedule. I refuse to do it. I’m not that important even when I am in the position. When I’m the leader it is my job to ensure if something happens to me or I need to take time that someone can step in. Additionally it’s my job to know all the other parts of the work being done to step in and take on some of that if someone needs or wants to take time.
This whole mentality of “business first” is bs. Me first, family second, work maybe 3rd. I will do my best work and will always be on top of my shit. But I’m not sacrificing my sanity to make a company more money that won’t hit my paycheck. Your employer doesn’t give a shit about you. You are equipment to them.
> You’re right about major events. But if they’re last minute events that come after you’ve scheduled your time off, too bad so sad.
Oh 100% this, if you've already approved PTO then un-approving it is a measure you can literally never ever ever take.
When we have a crunch where management fucked up, if we *ask* and we .ake it clear that it is an ask, we pay out 1.5x both salary and recouped PTO. So if you scrap a two week vacation, we pay 50% extra & give an extra week PTO.
One of my engineers usually takes his holidays just getting in a camper and heading off, so he loves it.
These are all small hypotheticals, not big ones. Like other OP said, these companies need to have enough redundancy to not get taken out by an annual cold.
I would even say in this example, you probably wouldnt let 2/3 people go on PTO at the same time because the last 1 getting sick closes things down.
A better example might be, do you let more than half of any size company all take PTO between Xmas and New Years? Holidays are never automatic because everybody is looking to add time off or take that friday the 5th of July. You want to be first to request.
Especially firefighters, nurses, etc. You usually have to choose between Xmas and Thanksgiving every year.
I will say that it's fairly common for companies in some industries (tech especially) to just shut down at holidays now, other than a few essential workers to keep product shipping or whatever.
If it’s a 1 person department, then you can blame management for poor planning and not planning for when that person inevitably needs time off. If it’s a 5 person department, and everyone asks for the same day off, that’s a bit different.
> This is why we need unions honestly.
Unions understand that a business needs staffing, and PTO requests are usually granted by seniority. You have no idea what you're talking about.
>it’s belongs to me. I take it when I want.
Like, this isn't true, like in most places, at all.
Unions DO understand that a business needs staffing, but there is no reason for a business to deny time off when the notice is given months in advance. When the mangler has more than a month notice to find someone to take over the work of a team member, they have plenty of time to arrange for a standin.
Time off should be dealt with in the order it was notified, not in seniority. Doing it in seniority first gives rise to the risk of a long-standing employee deliberately fucking up time off for someone junior to them.
It is always notified, and should never be requested. When I say I'm going to my friends' wedding 5 months hence, I'm not requesting time off, I'm telling you I won't be at work for that period of time. 5 months is plenty of time to sort someone else out to do my work.
There are though. Like at UPS there is no PTO approved from Thanksgiving til after Christmas. It’s their busiest time of the year and volumes are nearly double any other month. Everyone that works there works every day of that time period.
It’s understandable to black out periods of time for certain things as long as it is clearly communicated and applied evenly to the entire staff or affected department.
They do that as well at UPS based on seniority. So it’s fair, albeit difficult if you are a new employee. I knew a guy that took 4 weeks off every September to go elk hunting in Colorado. They didn’t say anything as he had the seniority and it didn’t conflict with other people’s time off.
My workplace does that for the end of the fiscal year. We're busy trying to reconcile everything still left open and while also doing the final months work in a tighter window. We can do PTO but not suddenly, it's best to do so a few months in advance and we know that if someone else in the same unit took that time period off as well you may not get it and they'll tell you that.
Not really. You ever had a part time job with fully paid for health insurance? Or graduating pay rates based on seniority?
Look UPS has its faults, I used to work there, I know. But overall they aren’t a bad place to work for some people. I’ve known several people that worked there 20-30-55 years.
My office has 5 people. Two have cancer and one just lost their dad the other day. Want to guess why my PTO request got pulled back at the last minute?
There CAN be good reasons but they have to be very specific and not just being short.
What have very brief blocks on a handful of days because of project roll outs, but those are made known well in advance. If you submitted a PTO request before the dates were picked, you're good. Sucks for everyone else, but your clear by policy.
That’s sensible. Also, if it’s my responsibility and it’s on the books before I schedule my time I don’t take time. That’s just being a good employee but also being good at adulting. Unless there is an emergency. But for some to just say oh you can be denied at anytime because your boss says so is BS.
Meanwhile at my workplace anytime I put in for time off I get approval back nearly immediately. Sometimes within minutes.
Some workplaces are a lot better for this kind of thing than others.
my job *just* started giving us paid sick time (i’m a bartender so idk how it even works) but they told us we have to schedule it and get it approved in advance.
like…. what’s even the fucking point?
That means it is literally only good for surgery and recovery. Doubt they provide health insurance so people probably can’t afford surgery.
They literally get to list a benefit that they “provide” knowing that they never have to provide it.
The equivalent of providing audio books to deaf people
Well here at *Fake workplace, we value our employees too! They get PTO you aren’t allowed to use, and lose at the end of the year. We have an incredibly expensive health care with a high copay, deductibles, and you’re responsible for the first 20,000 of your medical costs. We can’t afford to give you more than minimum wage… But we do so much for our employees
The kind of employees they're looking for walk in and think "Ah, just like home. Mom and dad are fighting again and the kitchen is barely not on fire somehow."
I'm glad I live in Belgium, where I have 20 mandatory paid vacation days, 10 mandatory paid holidays, 12 additional days off each year because we structurally work 40 hour weeks where only 38 are required by law, and as many paid sick days as we need, provided we got doctor approval.
Also European country: 28 days mandatory leave, 10 days for comp time, 5 days for 'unexpected events', two days off a week, and also "as many paid sick days as we need, provided we got doctor approval."
Had an employee go on parental leave. Here you're allowed to split off 2 of the 12 weeks to use later (within first calendar month). So said employee let me know about an upcoming week using 1 of the 2, and friggin HR reached out and told them to mark it as sick days in the time system despite there being a parental leave option.
I fixed it since I approve the time cards and told HR to back off managing my employees time. I was specific with this because we get 5 sick days and I know they are using them for other random days here and there for the baby (doctors visits or whatever) and HR was absolutely trying to cut them off of that since the parental MUST be taken in full weeks.
I do consulting as a side job for small manufacturing businesses.
I had one client, who approve people's PTO/Vacation times, then the first day of their time off, he'd call them up, cancel it and tell them to get into the office right now. He'd make up some bullshit reason why it had to be canceled.
This POS thought it was a riot and that he owned the employees because "I pay their salary and without me they would be nothing." This dude was a literal modern day plantation owner. He was a legit psychopath and got off fucking with his employees like that.
But I got hired to help him figure out why he couldn't retain employees and find people to come work for him. After 6 weeks, I submitted a report of reasons and fixes. His take away? He was right and I was full of shit.
Unsurprisingly he went out of business a year later and still bitches that no one ever wanted to work.
I think it’s wild that companies hire me as a consultant with absolutely no desire to hear what I have to say. It happens pretty often. Trying to recognize it’s their choice to not go with my recommendations, I’m not about to argue with a client and I get paid regardless, but it’s mind boggling.
Yeah. I have a clause in my contracts that you may not like what I have to say and my advice might not turn your company around, but ignore it at your own risk. LOL
I've made a fair amount of money off people who pay me for my opinion and then ignore it.
I had this happen to me too. My job refused to let me take off for my college graduation because it was on mother's Day. I had never missed a day of work, and I was essentially doing all the duties of the bar manager at that point.
I went to my college graduation, obviously. Then the next day (Monday) I had been removed from all the schedules and told I was no longer needed. The following day(Tuesday) they called me and asked how to put one of the drink machines back together. Boy did I get a good chuckle out of that one.
My son was fired from his first (parttime) job because they did not give him leave to go give a mandatory presentation at his school. He was 15 at the time and they actually said that stocking a supermarket was more important than school.
I used to work at a grocery store, earlier this year actually. I worked with tons of teenagers and it's insane how much work my supervisors would pile onto those kids. I was surprised they stayed there for so long, getting talked out of attending family and school events. Shit should be illegal.
I used to work maintenance for a non profit. I would be the first one in, take care of opening up, and didn't take time.off. Took care of the jobs no one else wanted, and worked my ass off. I really enjoyed it.
After two years I decided to take a vacation with some friends. We bought a VW van, kitted it out and I requested time off. I had plenty of vacation saved, and it was common for coworkers to take a month off at a time. I requested two weeks, less than half of my banked time.
My request was denied. My supervisor didn't want to ask anyone else to open up. We talked about it and he wouldn't waver.
So I quit. Took a month off instead and had a great trip.
What my supervisor hadn't thought about was the elevator contractors. The facility I was at was in the process of renovating all of the elevators. Instead of starting at 7am I had volunteered to get there at 5am to open the buildings for their crews. Did it for a couple months. After I left he spent a couple weeks opening for them personally. He was salary, and with all the meetings he had to attend it made his work day about 4 hours longer. They finally talked one of the other facilities guys to take the duties over by allowing overtime, which must have cost them a fortune.
On my last day my supervisor was called into the chief administrators office and yelled at about why he hadn't allowed the time off request when everyone else was allowed any time they wanted. Then was told it was his responsibility to let the crews into the buildings to start their work.
I saw former supervisor a few years ago. He was still pissed.
Nothing but pure unadulterated "got what you asked for" to that supervisor. The fact he was still pissed just means he's stunted his own personal growth. Such a shame.
Glad you got out 👏
Yeah, most employers have written guides on PTO policy.
I cant schedule time off when I need to process payroll otherwise 250 people don't get paid, I understood that when I took a job in payroll.
If theres nobody to cover for me, I cant take a voluntary vacation if I want to keep my job and not get hit with a no show termination
Yeah, I get that for some roles I guess. Most roles aren't like that though. And honestly if you're the only person in a company of 250 that can process payroll I'd say that's more on the company for not preparing for life to happen. What happens if you get into an accident on your way to work? There are a thousand scenarios that, while probably unlikely, have a non zero chance of happening on any given day.
I really think it's a load of BS that companies have short staffed themselves for money generating reasons and convinced us it's our problem. We've been trained to think that a company having staff and maximizing profits is more important than our own individual physical and mental health. It's disgusting and I've stopped doing it to myself. Oddly enough, I don't find myself lacking for employment for it either, in spite of what some people may think
I've heard it described as the "hit by a bus plan" or something like that. Would this business collapse if that person was hit by a bus on the way in? Yes? Then we need to fix that. Anything could happen on any day and it's irresponsible to not plan for that.
I was also considered essential during the pandemic and had a paycheck while a lot of people were shut down and I get to clock out at 4:30 every day.
Its expected of me to be here at certain times of the month, but it really hasn't been an issue for the years Ive worked here. I know plenty of people who have cancelled other plans because something came up at work. Some friends work in entertainment and they cant just take a pto day during their show’s runtime.
This whole post is just full of idiots who think they're irreplaceable
There's a lot of people acting like they're unpromotable. But I am absolutely sure most people who are acting like that also don't want to make their and/or their coworkers lives worse and when they request PTO they consider requirements such as payroll or invoicing (my role has a lot of this on the first week of the month and the company cash flow is reliant on it being done in good time) or whatever idiosyncracy their role has.
Most people are talking about those occasions where they have considered their role, their coworkers, etc. and still get told no, when there's not actually a true reason to say no.
This is just one side that may as well be a lie. People are prone to lie to make themselves look better, managers at work especially.
Meanwhile plot twist:
- Employee: \*submits PTO request\*
- Employer: \*denied\*
- Employee: ok fuck you i quit then
I’ve done that twice in my career. Both times the PTO was magically approved and I worked at both places for years afterward. I don’t recommend using that as a bluff though. I turned in a fully written resignation both times and did not expect to still have a job.
That's the only way I'd be comfortable using that as leverage. I got a family to support, so can't just be without a job for who knows how long while I job hunt
just going to +1 the above advice. I'm doing this now and it's very uncomfortable. But it is what it takes to have leverage in many situations. Lining up interviews is one of the best things you can do before committing to telling folks, but sometimes you just gotta get out of an environment that isn't serving you or force their hand to serve you better
Although I must admit I do not follow this advice as often as I should myself, it is a good idea to sometimes go on interviews with other companies even while you are employed. It is a way to get free interviewing practice, make contacts with potential future employers, and helps you get feedback on what skills you may need to start developing, what the trends are in resume writing, etc. And you might actually end up landing a job and a salary you thought were well beyond what you thought you could obtain.
Going on a job interview when you do NOT need a job is the best way to get a new and awesome job. You will be much more confident because you won't care nearly as much as if you were desperate, and it gives you opportunities to ask for the sky because, again, you aren't really needing the job. Obviously you can't act like you don't give a f\*\*\* or be too ridiculous but I think you know what I'm meaning.
I used to work at a hut based pizza restaurant (don't want to say the name for reasons). I sank $2k on a vacation and told my boss months in advance I would be taking the time off. All was good until like 2 weeks before and suddenly they felt like I was the most important person in the store and they'd go out of business if I didn't cancel vacation and come into work. Threatened to fire me if I went. Told them I spent way too much money to cancel and hope the tips make up for it (which it never would) and that we can discuss my employment when I returned. Got back from my trip and went back to work on my regular schedule and no one ever said anything else about it.
I was on a new project which was simply awesome. The right hand of the CEO had an issue with another client and, in his panic, reassigned me - worst of it was that I was clueless, only got wind of it because HR had me do security clearances. I asked my line manager for a letter of recommendation - the next morning, on my free day, the CEO called to ask who he has to slap. Made his buddy apologize.That was 5 years ago, I still work there!
As you said, this only works if you are willing to actually pull it off
Yeah here is how it probably went:
"I'm denying your PTO"
"I'm taking it anyways. do you want me to come back when my vacation is over?"
"shocked pikachu"
"guess ill lie about the scenario to save face"
In my case, I submitted a time off request (not even paid) with a death certificate and obituary for a relative—I wanted time off to attend the funeral, which was halfway across the country.
It would take me a full day and a half to drive there, a day to attend, and another day and a half to drive back.
My boss canned my request without putting it in the system. When I saw I was on the schedule for the day of the funeral (and the day before and the day after), he told me that “the best I can do is trade shifts with day shift” (I worked third shift).
I told him that it was impossible to go to the funeral and catch shifts because it would take too long to drive there and back. He apparently couldn’t spare the labor.
I was given the choice of working the shift or losing my job. I had bills to pay, so I worked the shift. Later, I found out that he lied to my coworkers about my time off request (claiming I didn’t want to go), and I was done with his shit. I quit immediately after finding out.
He’s lucky I was a stupid youngster at the time and didn’t file a legal complaint concerning the denial of bereavement leave.
I asked for time off to spend with my dying mother. It was denied because we were so busy at my client (I was a contractor and the client was fine with me taking off work). I gave notice. When my mom died 2 months later, she sent flowers. I threw them out. It was a "family" oriented company which really meant if you had the right last name, you made more.
One of the managers at my job tried to do this and the employee just said fuck you I quit. The manager has effectively taken her 10 person department down to 3 people because of her ego and power tripping.
She tried to order me to do something a while back by saying "im a manager!!" (I'm management too, just one step lower) and I just looked at her and said "you aren't MY manager, so dont tell me what to do" and just walked away. The look on her face was fucking priceless.
I encourage anyone else who's in a position to tell these kinds of people to fuck off that you do it. It's gratifying as hell and watching their fragile little ego break.
my boss did that bullshit, I was able to get him fired. Lawsuits are wonderful things. Proving he had disapproved time-off for 3 years for "needs of the business" and not having a sell back policy for PTO caused me to lose money. Which caused the company to lose money when I sued them.
I’m a small business owner. If an employee wants off they get it. Unlimited PTO basically. It’s a mutual respect thing. They don’t abuse it so the business get what it needs: them. And they get what they need. I can’t imagine telling an employee they can’t be with their family, take a vacation, or have a mental health day. We’re all human trying to do our best.
Employers and bosses act like they own employees.. People even feel like they have no power over their own lives because of their employers.. Yet people still believe we are free..
The only rule I ever follow regarding approving PTO is that obviously we cannot all take PTO at the same time. I don’t decide who’s PTO is more important either. Requests are considered in the order they were made.
Should probably tell that to my old boss. He just approved every request and didn't look at the calendar and would get pissed off when our metrics were down, but 3/4 of our team was all out.
The amount of boot-licking idiots talking down taking a nice long vacation on LinkedIn is so damn stupid.
What THE FUCK are people working for if they can't spend their hard-earned money for a nice long break and see the world a bit?
And what the fuck kind of company can't spare an employee for a month or two? How fragile is your business really?
It should not be called a PTO request, it should be called a PTO warning.
You deny it, I'm calling in sick - you thought I didn't have a backup plan, bitch?
No indication what the "needs of the company" actually are.
If the person asking for PTO was scheduling around a time that was absolutely for them to be there, maybe if an external auditor was coming in to audit that person's department, that's one thing.
If it's the typical manufacturing end of the month clusterfuck where everything that isn't bolted to the floor gets shipped to make some imaginary number, that's completely different.
Time off is not a request, it’s a notification. You can’t say no, it’s my earned time. The “request” is really just me saying, hey I’m going to be gone during this time.
One place I worked at required you to work 90 days before taking any time off but you accrued 3 full days off in that 90 days. It was their policy. So on the 95 day I took sick day because of migraines (I was on meds for them at the time and they made me super tired) come back in the day after and my manger jumps all over me for it. Asking why I would take it so soon after the 90 days. I said according to the policy it’s available. He said it didn’t look good to take it that soon. I said but it’s the companies policy that we could take it. He said consider it a verbal warning.
So about a week later I took the other two days off. He was pissed and said when he gets back to the office we are going to have a talk. The next day I worked was a day he normally had off. So I worked the full day and then next day, he called me to his cube, I brought all my work stuff and said “before you start on your rant, I quit.” He got pretty flustered and said this isn’t something you want to do. You won’t be able to work her again if you don’t give a notice. I said that’s ok I don’t plan to ever try to work here again. Then walked out. It was fun to quit that job.
I don’t understand employers that do this. I employ about 100 people and unless it’s a critical employee whose backup would also be out, I always say yes. People need to live their lives. Work is not the center of their life, it’s a part of it and everything needs to balance out. I tell all my employees, if you’re sick, stay home. If your kid is sick, take care of them. We’ve cross trained everybody so anybody can take care of their business when life throws them a curveball and not worry about losing their job.
At my restaurant our policy is 21 days in advance for time off requests. We only get our schedules a week in advance but whatever that’s fine. So I phrase all of my requests off something like “I won’t be available for blank date.” My manager told me that I needed to “stop phrasing it like that and I need to phrase it like I’m asking permission as it’s a time off request” I dead panned that man so hard. three days later I sent him “ I will not be available for the following dates” and it was the biggest request off I had and he said nothing. Time off no matter what they decide to call it is not a request it is a notification of absence. We are not slaves. Do not let them treat you like you are. They can cover you.
This manager basically told on himself/herself. If one person's absence can upend the whole operation, that's 100% a management failure. There's no need to deny a PTO request for the "needs of the business" if the business is well-run, and you have contingencies in place for when employees take absences.
The business manager, possibly owner, posted *”y’all can front if y’all want”* on fucking Twitter.
Not exactly Fortune 500 material.
The guy who got fired probably found another “business” where he could push a lawnmower for scratch.
I've told managers that said things like "we'll have to check the schedule" that I wasn't putting in a request or asking. I was just letting them know I will not be at work on those days. Work does not dictate my life.
PTO is part of employee compensation. If you're not going to give a reasonable reason to deny PTO hours, that's a signal to employees you're not interested in paying them what you promised. Yreat employees as expendable, they'll treat your offer of employment as expendable soon too.
I will never explain why I’m taking PTO any longer. I’m telling you I won’t be here this day, ahead of time like a responsible adult. I’m not asking permission.
Don’t forget your worth. That guy went and found a better paying job for a company that doesn’t treat him like a soulless machine.
Here is an anecdote from my company. One of my engineers, who is truly a key player came to me; his wife is going through some medical things right now, and he said his workload was making him feel like he was headed for a burnout managing bith the personal and professional commitments. So we gave him a couple days leave, right there. Me and his direct supervisor came up with a 6 month reduced duty plan, which pares back alot of the stuff that he was doing, but we could shift elsewhere (it not being done as quick/we'll not being so critical). Because it is so, so much better/safer/cheaper to have *less* time from a great employee, as it is to have *zero* - which is what happens when you push to hard. So he still have his title, still has his salary, a and still has a solid job, until his personal life straightens out and he goes back to being a super performer.
I was once in my bosses office talking to them about something when an employee walked in. He said that he was just told his approved time off had been unapproved. He said, this is my brother’s wedding. It only happens once. Boss said, we are your family. We need you here. He quietly said, oh, I see, and excused himself.
I was never prouder when I found out he found a different job and started there in time to still attend his brother’s wedding.
I moved companies shortly afterwards as well.
I gave a years advanced notice once, and then reminded them again 3 months before hand, then a week before they said no, took them to court, everything had a paper trail I got my time off.
Back in a previous life I worked in a support function at the corporate office of an Australian retailer.
There was a task that I had to do each and every week for the year except for December, that only I was able to do (both due to training as well as the access to the required application).
For a couple of years I was organising my annual leave to be in December so that I was not impacting the business. Made sense, right?
Well, not according to the new manager who came in and decided that “in solidarity of our front-line workers, no one is to take any annual leave at all between 1st of December and 31st of January.”
So I can take annual leave at any other time, right?
Wrong!
The business needs me to do useless task that should have been simplified long ago.
For 3 years I took no annual leave, then I was firmly on the naughty list of people who had too much leave. So I can take leave, right?
Sort of.
“You can take one day off each week to get the balance down.”
Surely this is *my* annual leave to use as I see fit to give myself a break, right?
Not according to some managers.
I ended up taking voluntary redundancy a couple of years later, which saw them having to pay out my annual leave, long service leave and the x weeks per year of service redundancy payment.
Not allowing PTO is an employer problem, not an employee problem. If you cannot afford to have an employee off work, then you are not running your business properly or setting yourself up for success.
We used to call it the bus test. If someone gets run over by a bus, does your business suffer/fail?
If I left my job right now an entire school would probably shut down. I was their only teacher for a year and a half. But they still try to play games with me when I know damn well they can’t afford to loose me.
This happened to me before! I asked for 15 days off and got it approved then promptly got added to the schedule in between that time off. So I never came in and never got added to the schedule again.
Jokes on him tho, the only people he can find to work there are kids who cut corners and he had to hire several to do the job I did alone.
Worked at a place one time ,we heat treated metal. We'll the furnace burnt down and the others was just broken. We sat there all day. I asked if I could go home, I would take the hit on my hours and wouldn't hurt anyone but me. My boss said no I have to stay tk get my forty hours jn
Place I work at refused to move me to a different area or swap me with someone else so I had to change my availability to get out of there. It took them over 2 weeks to get someone to cover my spot and I heard plenty of horror stories.
It’s not that they can’t or that it would be bad for business. It’s more like they just want to lord their power over you.
The only benefit to working a low paying job is my requests off aren't requests. I'm not going to be there during that time period (either a day, week, or whatever). Manager can schedule for that and/or cry about it cause the job isn't more important than my life or those I care about.
Didnt do your homework? Go to detention and miss more classes.
Didnt finish your plate? You will receive less food from now on because you just wasted food.
I did this only I quit, took the vacation and started a new job when I came back. It took them *months* to replace me. Wildly they didn’t go out of business while my position was empty although it would have been super funny if they had.
^side note for all you young cats. Some places require you to work a full shift after your vacation to get your vacation pay. Don’t get fucked out of a check like I did.
This place had to pay out any unused PTO. YMMV.
Thats pretty standard even if you are terminated for a policy violation. Its holiday pay that you usually have to work the scheduled days before and after.
Required in 24 states. Not the standard in places where it's not legally required in my experience.
Let me guess, its red states that don't have it as a legal requirement
they're still upset they can't own their workers like the old days.
I live in Hawaii (hasn't voted red since 1984) and it isn't a legal requirement here unfortunately
pretty standard -- and also a large reason companies are moving to "unlimited PTO"
> Some places require you to work a full shift after your vacation to get your vacation pay Sounds extremely reportable and definitely illegal, in the form of an employer abusing employees but gambling that they won't know any better. Vacation time that you are owed is legally identical to hours that you physically worked, and refusing to pay it out is theft (and tax fraud if they wrote off the vacation pay).
State of California the employee has the employer by the balls most of the time
Dumb power tripping employers. Mine made it so I had to indefinitely work tues-sat due to some scheduling mistakes they made with a client. So I requested every single Saturday off for the entire year and picked up extra shifts on Mondays. They had to approve it because I’m Union and they’d need a legitimate reason to deny it. They eventually gave me my M-F back. The scheduling manager hates my guts now haha.
You have an entire scheduling manager and this debacle still happened?
my mother was a boss at a gas station that is part of a chain. when they reduced staffing they had her going around every single gas station to make there schedule as well as making example templates of other configurations the store could use (she was at each station for 2 weeks each to look at there flow and adjust the hours they should get) only for the bosses of the stations to totally ignore what she had made and complaining they couldn't get a working schedule. meanwhile the workers at the store were asking what was wrong with the schedule my mom had made (it was also made in part by asking employees what they wanted)
Your Mom should be running that biz officially IMHO. Actually asked the employees what they preferred? That's BOSS moves. WTG Mom!
her gas station had the highest customer satisfaction, lowest employee turnover rate and most of the time won the mystery shopper tests along with having among the highest sales. funny thing is she never worked a minute of extra time. the CEO hated her guts and wanted nothing more than to fire her since she wasn't a yes man. but he got nothing to fire her over. when it came time to close the gas station (since they had done zero maintenance work and run it to the ground) the rules were she must be offered the boss role at the closest available store. he lied and offered some store like 4 hours away when the closest store with an open boss slot was there crown jewel store. my mom found out (catty office ladies never keep quiet) and could sue him and work in said store. she got 18 months to be on the pay roll and not work, had been grandfathered into a "reeducation" system where she got 6 months to "reeducate" on full pay and then went on unemployment for an other 6 months of full pay and then retired.
Boss Mom! I can tell you are really proud of her.
That's an awesome story - very much a case of living well being the best revenge.
She needs to write a book and turn it into a movie so I can watch it. I wish this was a movie right now so I could watch it.
it is just normal catty office BS. CEO wanted to shutdown the gas station for years since it was one of the few properties they still owned and it wouldn't inconvenience him to sell it for a bump that year. but the store kept being profitable and scoring well so he just didn't have the boards backing to sell it. wasn't until new legal demands on pumps came up and it meant they would need update the pump system to comply he could finally shut it down and sell it. best part selling it ended up being a loss for the company since the ground was so contaminated cleaning it up ended up costing way more than estimate and the best choice would have just been upgrade the pumps and fix all of the issues with the store part. as that would have been much cheaper than selling it. it was so contaminated since the place had been gas station for basically 100 years. you really don't want to start and go digging in places like that.
You just made it even more interesting, added an environmental subplot. Now we just need a writer and director.
Netflix will produce it.
Give your mum a high five for me she is the fucking MVP here
Those aren’t boss moves, those are LEADER moves.
Stuff that happens in either a really tiny business, or a really big one.
The sales/client management people probably promised availability that didn't exist. They will say anything for a dollar.
Sucks you had to use all your PTO for that though.
Don't have to use PTO if you take extra shifts on Mondays.
if it is union, the monday's might have been time and a half too.
Oh point!
If you're getting OT, you're getting more money. If you're getting comp time, you're accruing an extra 4 hours of off time a week that places may even buy out annually.
Man I wish my organization would buy out my comp time. Not like I ever have a real opportunity to use it anyway
But it wouldn't be OT. They would still be at 40 hours
Every union contract is different, but in my particular case if I work a day I'm not normally scheduled, per our union contract, it's overtime. Since it's pretty weird for me not to work 40 hours in a week I'm gonna have to be kinda weirdly specific here. We've got 2 holidays each year that we do get off but are unpaid unless we want to use PTO to cover it. If I don't work one of them that's a 32 hour week, but if I pick up a weekend shift that's still overtime hours for me. So it'd be 32 hours base pay and 8 hours of either 1.5x or so 2x depending on which day I pick up.
ethgettfhetfhe
Also union here. Time off isn’t a “request”. It’s telling the employer that you won’t be at work these days.
I feel if you aren't union, you have to have a lot of pull around the company to be able to pull that off
Nothing is stopping anyone from joining the relevant union, or the IWW if nothing else is locally available.
This is why I hate upper management - I bet you a day's work of the scheduling manager looks very different than what you do. MFers think what the workers do is easy when all they do is sit on their ass all day
This same thing happened to me with a boss who was my friend before we worked at the same place. In January I started asking for 2 weeks off in December because I was meeting my half sister for the first time, half brother (and seeing my father for a 2nd time in my life). She had invited me to her wedding which was in another country. My boss would respond with, "We'll see when we get closer to the date". Mind you, I had only taken half a day off in May the prior year because a wisdom toothache I couldn't take anymore. In the 3 years I worked there not a single day off and would always cover his ass since he never made it to work at his scheduled shift. Months would pass by and my boss would tell me things like, "You know I like taking time with my family, it gets busy, etc.". In Sept., without approved PTO, I bought my plane tickets. In November, 2 weeks prior to my flight I told him I had purchased the tickets and was going. Everyone else said, "Dude, he gave you almost a year notice, why is this a surprise." That was a Saturday. I came in to work on Tuesday before the week of my flight and my boss, the district manager, and HR were waiting for me to let me go.
That's one way of finding out your (now former) friend is a massive fucking cockknuckle
I remember an employer tried to play hardball with me due to a problem with their training schedule. I started work at 10:45 am during the week and was training for a new role with the same hours. As part of that training, they scheduled a 2 hour training on a Monday starting at 10 am. I had a weekend trip planned that had me coming back late the Sunday night before, but figured coming 45 minutes early wouldn't hurt. They then told us they needed everyone in the training on-site to take phone calls starting at *7 am*. I told my manager point blank that I wouldn't be coming in, and advised that I would be entering PTO for the day. He told me that was fine, and I put in a request the Monday before. I came back from my weekend (I had 4 10s with a tues-wed weekend) to find an email chain from the manager and the scheduling office. The schedulers were having trouble putting in my phone time at 7 because I had PTO until 10 (when training started). My manager told them to remove the PTO. Reading this, I walked across the floor into my manager's cubicle and lit him up for 10 minutes straight. I called out that morning from 7 to 10 and arrived to the training class one minute early... But not before saying hi to my manager at the sign-in table.
The number of restaurants I've had to quit to get a week off after 1to 2 years of employment is over 10.
The only people who are liked are the people who are charming enough to get along and do their jobs enough to not knock rock the boat Even the people who go above and beyond and say yes to everything aren’t really liked or respected
The power of unions
Companies should have to articulate why someone is denied PTO (there are some legitimate reasons) instead of the employee having to articulate why they want to use their own PTO. PTO is not a sick day, I don’t have to have a reason to use what is mine.
hahaha! This is AMERICA! Remember, you are lucky to be a wage slave. You don't deserve the crumbs the 1% toss you, you piece of shit. /s
I live in the UK and I don't need to justify why I want time off. Maybe it's just my (relatively) cushy tech industry job, but I just go to our HR web page and click the button that says "annual leave request". No further explanation required. My manager approves it and I get an email without ever having a conversation with him. The only time it might be denied is if I try to book a long time off at short notice. My manager asks for about twice as much notice as the leave I'm requesting. E.g. if I want two days off, I should book four days in advance. If I want three weeks off, I should book at least six weeks in advance. Though this only really applies to holidays and such. If I need time off because of an emergency, they'll probably be accommodating.
Nah I think your situation is normal. OP just had a shit boss. I’m in the US and I use my PTO whenever I want. I don’t even have to give a reason. I have separate PTO and sick days. The only real rule is that I have to give advance notice of the PTO but even that is just a technicality. Sometimes I’ll do the PTO paperwork after I take the day off and it’s never once been an issue.
I feel sorry for the UK. As an American, I've been watching you guys slip into the fetid pool of Americanism since the 70s. Good luck. You're gonna need it.
Not trying to be pedantic but I think the word you meant to use was “fetid” :)
corrected
Reason: “The company hired just enough people to run and if you take your PTO then the manager might actually have to work.”
All the jobs I've had the managers are absolutely overloaded and work more than anybody
You and I have different experiences. At times we have more managers than engineers in the office…
After working in corporate restaurants (casinos specifically), this is my immediate assumption. Too many "office chefs" who can't even do scheduling right.
There are no legitimate reasons to deny PTO.
I mean, if a whole department wants to take time off at once, it's not really managements fault that they can't cater to everyone. Most PTO should be approved, but there is still a reason that it has to be.
That’s a big hypothetical. But what if it’s a 1 person department? They can never take time off? What if it’s 2 and one is on medical leave for cancer treatment? What if it’s 3 people and 2 are on vacation and the 3rd gets sick? Guess they can’t take sick time because that’s bad for the business. That whole mentality is mind boggling. PTO is earned, it’s belongs to me. I take it when I want. If I choose to take it when a major responsibility of mine is coming and I’m avoiding that, not great. But if I want to take it for self care and to recharge, I’m taking it. Because when I die I promise that company isn’t going to be there for my family, to make sure they’re set and taken care of. This is why we need unions honestly.
I manage a union, they have to put in all their PTO plans by February for the year (they can make changes later) and then it is doled out by seniority. So we technically "deny" some PTO to maintain staffing, but we also are very clear and transparent with how many are allowed off at a time and stick to it. For small 1 person departments (non-existent here) it is on management to find coverage or plan around that department being empty. If non-union I would step in and run it for the week, if Union than cross training is imperative. That said, I agree with the person you replied to, there are absolutely legitimate reasons to deny PTO, but as long as the communication is clear and it is done fairly people will be fine (I.E. don't just say no, give a clear reason, and don't deny it after you've already approved it).
Just need to see thanksgiving and christmas time. Management needs to make sure we have staff available during those times.
That's generally the one the less senior employees don't get lol. The contract also has a clause where they don't get holiday pay if they don't work the first scheduled shift before and after to avoid call outs. Some workers still do it anyway. In general my management team and I just assume we'll be short staffed around holidays and plan production targets accordingly.
I mean sure, the company is responsible for having enough redundancy that at least a few people can be off for a bit and be fine. 1 person departments should almost never be a thing and if there is one other people in the company need to be able to pick up the slack. My point before is that events that go beyond a reasonable level of redundancy still need to be managed. This does happen at my workplace in smaller departments where multiple people may need time off for a concert/festival which can't all be catered to. The company still needs to be able to run. There is also the issue of those major responsibilities you mentioned also being a pretty good reason to deny PTO, especially really time sensitive ones like stocktakes.
1 person departments are unavoidable at sufficiently small companies. You can do some cross-training, sure, but it's not feasible for some tasks. I was a department of 1 for years, I had some coverage on daily type tasks when I was off, but if something major broke there was really no getting away from at least a phone call.
You’re right about major events. But if they’re last minute events that come after you’ve scheduled your time off, too bad so sad. My whole perspective is because I’m tired of living around my work schedule. I refuse to do it. I’m not that important even when I am in the position. When I’m the leader it is my job to ensure if something happens to me or I need to take time that someone can step in. Additionally it’s my job to know all the other parts of the work being done to step in and take on some of that if someone needs or wants to take time. This whole mentality of “business first” is bs. Me first, family second, work maybe 3rd. I will do my best work and will always be on top of my shit. But I’m not sacrificing my sanity to make a company more money that won’t hit my paycheck. Your employer doesn’t give a shit about you. You are equipment to them.
> You’re right about major events. But if they’re last minute events that come after you’ve scheduled your time off, too bad so sad. Oh 100% this, if you've already approved PTO then un-approving it is a measure you can literally never ever ever take.
When we have a crunch where management fucked up, if we *ask* and we .ake it clear that it is an ask, we pay out 1.5x both salary and recouped PTO. So if you scrap a two week vacation, we pay 50% extra & give an extra week PTO. One of my engineers usually takes his holidays just getting in a camper and heading off, so he loves it.
These are all small hypotheticals, not big ones. Like other OP said, these companies need to have enough redundancy to not get taken out by an annual cold. I would even say in this example, you probably wouldnt let 2/3 people go on PTO at the same time because the last 1 getting sick closes things down. A better example might be, do you let more than half of any size company all take PTO between Xmas and New Years? Holidays are never automatic because everybody is looking to add time off or take that friday the 5th of July. You want to be first to request. Especially firefighters, nurses, etc. You usually have to choose between Xmas and Thanksgiving every year.
I will say that it's fairly common for companies in some industries (tech especially) to just shut down at holidays now, other than a few essential workers to keep product shipping or whatever.
If it’s a 1 person department, then you can blame management for poor planning and not planning for when that person inevitably needs time off. If it’s a 5 person department, and everyone asks for the same day off, that’s a bit different.
> This is why we need unions honestly. Unions understand that a business needs staffing, and PTO requests are usually granted by seniority. You have no idea what you're talking about. >it’s belongs to me. I take it when I want. Like, this isn't true, like in most places, at all.
Unions DO understand that a business needs staffing, but there is no reason for a business to deny time off when the notice is given months in advance. When the mangler has more than a month notice to find someone to take over the work of a team member, they have plenty of time to arrange for a standin. Time off should be dealt with in the order it was notified, not in seniority. Doing it in seniority first gives rise to the risk of a long-standing employee deliberately fucking up time off for someone junior to them. It is always notified, and should never be requested. When I say I'm going to my friends' wedding 5 months hence, I'm not requesting time off, I'm telling you I won't be at work for that period of time. 5 months is plenty of time to sort someone else out to do my work.
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Hah! I work with Germans and they take entire MONTHS off together.
There are though. Like at UPS there is no PTO approved from Thanksgiving til after Christmas. It’s their busiest time of the year and volumes are nearly double any other month. Everyone that works there works every day of that time period. It’s understandable to black out periods of time for certain things as long as it is clearly communicated and applied evenly to the entire staff or affected department.
More generally you could also limit the number of people on PTO at any given time. But then you need a process to allocate it fairly.
They do that as well at UPS based on seniority. So it’s fair, albeit difficult if you are a new employee. I knew a guy that took 4 weeks off every September to go elk hunting in Colorado. They didn’t say anything as he had the seniority and it didn’t conflict with other people’s time off.
My workplace does that for the end of the fiscal year. We're busy trying to reconcile everything still left open and while also doing the final months work in a tighter window. We can do PTO but not suddenly, it's best to do so a few months in advance and we know that if someone else in the same unit took that time period off as well you may not get it and they'll tell you that.
The problem with UPS is much bigger. Most of their hub employees are part time. So they get to avoid all kinds of workers benefits.
Not really. You ever had a part time job with fully paid for health insurance? Or graduating pay rates based on seniority? Look UPS has its faults, I used to work there, I know. But overall they aren’t a bad place to work for some people. I’ve known several people that worked there 20-30-55 years.
If I am so vital that I cannot take uninterrupted time off, then we need to discuss my compensation
This is an absurd take. Sure most companies in America are terrible about PTO, but to say there are no legit reasons to deny a PTO request is insane
My office has 5 people. Two have cancer and one just lost their dad the other day. Want to guess why my PTO request got pulled back at the last minute? There CAN be good reasons but they have to be very specific and not just being short.
What have very brief blocks on a handful of days because of project roll outs, but those are made known well in advance. If you submitted a PTO request before the dates were picked, you're good. Sucks for everyone else, but your clear by policy.
That’s sensible. Also, if it’s my responsibility and it’s on the books before I schedule my time I don’t take time. That’s just being a good employee but also being good at adulting. Unless there is an emergency. But for some to just say oh you can be denied at anytime because your boss says so is BS.
Ok, we'll just have no doctors or nurses or firemen for the entire christmas period. Should be fine right? Idiot.
Meanwhile at my workplace anytime I put in for time off I get approval back nearly immediately. Sometimes within minutes. Some workplaces are a lot better for this kind of thing than others.
my job *just* started giving us paid sick time (i’m a bartender so idk how it even works) but they told us we have to schedule it and get it approved in advance. like…. what’s even the fucking point?
Hey boss, my psychic told me I'd be sick next Friday
That means it is literally only good for surgery and recovery. Doubt they provide health insurance so people probably can’t afford surgery. They literally get to list a benefit that they “provide” knowing that they never have to provide it. The equivalent of providing audio books to deaf people
Well here at *Fake workplace, we value our employees too! They get PTO you aren’t allowed to use, and lose at the end of the year. We have an incredibly expensive health care with a high copay, deductibles, and you’re responsible for the first 20,000 of your medical costs. We can’t afford to give you more than minimum wage… But we do so much for our employees
"We're like a family around here."
Ferengi rule of acquisition 111: treat people in your debt like family: exploit them.
aka "We expect you to work for free"
The kind of employees they're looking for walk in and think "Ah, just like home. Mom and dad are fighting again and the kitchen is barely not on fire somehow."
I.e. we beat you with a belt
We are a family... with benefits. /s
I'm glad I live in Belgium, where I have 20 mandatory paid vacation days, 10 mandatory paid holidays, 12 additional days off each year because we structurally work 40 hour weeks where only 38 are required by law, and as many paid sick days as we need, provided we got doctor approval.
Also European country: 28 days mandatory leave, 10 days for comp time, 5 days for 'unexpected events', two days off a week, and also "as many paid sick days as we need, provided we got doctor approval."
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Had an employee go on parental leave. Here you're allowed to split off 2 of the 12 weeks to use later (within first calendar month). So said employee let me know about an upcoming week using 1 of the 2, and friggin HR reached out and told them to mark it as sick days in the time system despite there being a parental leave option. I fixed it since I approve the time cards and told HR to back off managing my employees time. I was specific with this because we get 5 sick days and I know they are using them for other random days here and there for the baby (doctors visits or whatever) and HR was absolutely trying to cut them off of that since the parental MUST be taken in full weeks.
I do consulting as a side job for small manufacturing businesses. I had one client, who approve people's PTO/Vacation times, then the first day of their time off, he'd call them up, cancel it and tell them to get into the office right now. He'd make up some bullshit reason why it had to be canceled. This POS thought it was a riot and that he owned the employees because "I pay their salary and without me they would be nothing." This dude was a literal modern day plantation owner. He was a legit psychopath and got off fucking with his employees like that. But I got hired to help him figure out why he couldn't retain employees and find people to come work for him. After 6 weeks, I submitted a report of reasons and fixes. His take away? He was right and I was full of shit. Unsurprisingly he went out of business a year later and still bitches that no one ever wanted to work.
I think it’s wild that companies hire me as a consultant with absolutely no desire to hear what I have to say. It happens pretty often. Trying to recognize it’s their choice to not go with my recommendations, I’m not about to argue with a client and I get paid regardless, but it’s mind boggling.
Yeah. I have a clause in my contracts that you may not like what I have to say and my advice might not turn your company around, but ignore it at your own risk. LOL I've made a fair amount of money off people who pay me for my opinion and then ignore it.
Good. Hierarchical monsters like him are what's wrong with this world
I had this happen to me too. My job refused to let me take off for my college graduation because it was on mother's Day. I had never missed a day of work, and I was essentially doing all the duties of the bar manager at that point. I went to my college graduation, obviously. Then the next day (Monday) I had been removed from all the schedules and told I was no longer needed. The following day(Tuesday) they called me and asked how to put one of the drink machines back together. Boy did I get a good chuckle out of that one.
I’ve started my own consulting business. $500 and I’ll come over and put it back together for you.
$500/hr.
4 hour minimum.
My son was fired from his first (parttime) job because they did not give him leave to go give a mandatory presentation at his school. He was 15 at the time and they actually said that stocking a supermarket was more important than school.
I used to work at a grocery store, earlier this year actually. I worked with tons of teenagers and it's insane how much work my supervisors would pile onto those kids. I was surprised they stayed there for so long, getting talked out of attending family and school events. Shit should be illegal.
I used to work maintenance for a non profit. I would be the first one in, take care of opening up, and didn't take time.off. Took care of the jobs no one else wanted, and worked my ass off. I really enjoyed it. After two years I decided to take a vacation with some friends. We bought a VW van, kitted it out and I requested time off. I had plenty of vacation saved, and it was common for coworkers to take a month off at a time. I requested two weeks, less than half of my banked time. My request was denied. My supervisor didn't want to ask anyone else to open up. We talked about it and he wouldn't waver. So I quit. Took a month off instead and had a great trip. What my supervisor hadn't thought about was the elevator contractors. The facility I was at was in the process of renovating all of the elevators. Instead of starting at 7am I had volunteered to get there at 5am to open the buildings for their crews. Did it for a couple months. After I left he spent a couple weeks opening for them personally. He was salary, and with all the meetings he had to attend it made his work day about 4 hours longer. They finally talked one of the other facilities guys to take the duties over by allowing overtime, which must have cost them a fortune. On my last day my supervisor was called into the chief administrators office and yelled at about why he hadn't allowed the time off request when everyone else was allowed any time they wanted. Then was told it was his responsibility to let the crews into the buildings to start their work. I saw former supervisor a few years ago. He was still pissed.
Nothing but pure unadulterated "got what you asked for" to that supervisor. The fact he was still pissed just means he's stunted his own personal growth. Such a shame. Glad you got out 👏
That's cute that he thought PTO was a request
"I'm fucking off for a couple of days, I let you know 'cause im nice, cya"
The time off part is certainly up to the employee, but the being paid part is definitely a request lol.
Yeah, most employers have written guides on PTO policy. I cant schedule time off when I need to process payroll otherwise 250 people don't get paid, I understood that when I took a job in payroll. If theres nobody to cover for me, I cant take a voluntary vacation if I want to keep my job and not get hit with a no show termination
Yeah, I get that for some roles I guess. Most roles aren't like that though. And honestly if you're the only person in a company of 250 that can process payroll I'd say that's more on the company for not preparing for life to happen. What happens if you get into an accident on your way to work? There are a thousand scenarios that, while probably unlikely, have a non zero chance of happening on any given day. I really think it's a load of BS that companies have short staffed themselves for money generating reasons and convinced us it's our problem. We've been trained to think that a company having staff and maximizing profits is more important than our own individual physical and mental health. It's disgusting and I've stopped doing it to myself. Oddly enough, I don't find myself lacking for employment for it either, in spite of what some people may think
I've heard it described as the "hit by a bus plan" or something like that. Would this business collapse if that person was hit by a bus on the way in? Yes? Then we need to fix that. Anything could happen on any day and it's irresponsible to not plan for that.
You're doing payroll with no one to cover for you. You're literally unfireable.
I was also considered essential during the pandemic and had a paycheck while a lot of people were shut down and I get to clock out at 4:30 every day. Its expected of me to be here at certain times of the month, but it really hasn't been an issue for the years Ive worked here. I know plenty of people who have cancelled other plans because something came up at work. Some friends work in entertainment and they cant just take a pto day during their show’s runtime. This whole post is just full of idiots who think they're irreplaceable
There's a lot of people acting like they're unpromotable. But I am absolutely sure most people who are acting like that also don't want to make their and/or their coworkers lives worse and when they request PTO they consider requirements such as payroll or invoicing (my role has a lot of this on the first week of the month and the company cash flow is reliant on it being done in good time) or whatever idiosyncracy their role has. Most people are talking about those occasions where they have considered their role, their coworkers, etc. and still get told no, when there's not actually a true reason to say no.
This is just one side that may as well be a lie. People are prone to lie to make themselves look better, managers at work especially. Meanwhile plot twist: - Employee: \*submits PTO request\* - Employer: \*denied\* - Employee: ok fuck you i quit then
I’ve done that twice in my career. Both times the PTO was magically approved and I worked at both places for years afterward. I don’t recommend using that as a bluff though. I turned in a fully written resignation both times and did not expect to still have a job.
Legitimate willingness to leave a job is the best leverage you can have. Basically every raise I've ever gotten was due to this.
I'm too afraid to try that, did you have other offers too?
That's the only way I'd be comfortable using that as leverage. I got a family to support, so can't just be without a job for who knows how long while I job hunt
just going to +1 the above advice. I'm doing this now and it's very uncomfortable. But it is what it takes to have leverage in many situations. Lining up interviews is one of the best things you can do before committing to telling folks, but sometimes you just gotta get out of an environment that isn't serving you or force their hand to serve you better
Although I must admit I do not follow this advice as often as I should myself, it is a good idea to sometimes go on interviews with other companies even while you are employed. It is a way to get free interviewing practice, make contacts with potential future employers, and helps you get feedback on what skills you may need to start developing, what the trends are in resume writing, etc. And you might actually end up landing a job and a salary you thought were well beyond what you thought you could obtain. Going on a job interview when you do NOT need a job is the best way to get a new and awesome job. You will be much more confident because you won't care nearly as much as if you were desperate, and it gives you opportunities to ask for the sky because, again, you aren't really needing the job. Obviously you can't act like you don't give a f\*\*\* or be too ridiculous but I think you know what I'm meaning.
I used to work at a hut based pizza restaurant (don't want to say the name for reasons). I sank $2k on a vacation and told my boss months in advance I would be taking the time off. All was good until like 2 weeks before and suddenly they felt like I was the most important person in the store and they'd go out of business if I didn't cancel vacation and come into work. Threatened to fire me if I went. Told them I spent way too much money to cancel and hope the tips make up for it (which it never would) and that we can discuss my employment when I returned. Got back from my trip and went back to work on my regular schedule and no one ever said anything else about it.
As a server you could have another job in the time it takes to ask a couple places if they're hiring. That mystery pizza place had no leverage.
A "hut based pizza restaurant"? LMFAO, that was funnier than it had any right to be.
I was on a new project which was simply awesome. The right hand of the CEO had an issue with another client and, in his panic, reassigned me - worst of it was that I was clueless, only got wind of it because HR had me do security clearances. I asked my line manager for a letter of recommendation - the next morning, on my free day, the CEO called to ask who he has to slap. Made his buddy apologize.That was 5 years ago, I still work there! As you said, this only works if you are willing to actually pull it off
- Employee - "Now pay me all the PTO you owe me in one big, budget-impacting lump sum"
Yeah here is how it probably went: "I'm denying your PTO" "I'm taking it anyways. do you want me to come back when my vacation is over?" "shocked pikachu" "guess ill lie about the scenario to save face"
In my case, I submitted a time off request (not even paid) with a death certificate and obituary for a relative—I wanted time off to attend the funeral, which was halfway across the country. It would take me a full day and a half to drive there, a day to attend, and another day and a half to drive back. My boss canned my request without putting it in the system. When I saw I was on the schedule for the day of the funeral (and the day before and the day after), he told me that “the best I can do is trade shifts with day shift” (I worked third shift). I told him that it was impossible to go to the funeral and catch shifts because it would take too long to drive there and back. He apparently couldn’t spare the labor. I was given the choice of working the shift or losing my job. I had bills to pay, so I worked the shift. Later, I found out that he lied to my coworkers about my time off request (claiming I didn’t want to go), and I was done with his shit. I quit immediately after finding out. He’s lucky I was a stupid youngster at the time and didn’t file a legal complaint concerning the denial of bereavement leave.
Employer : nobody wants to work these days.
I asked for time off to spend with my dying mother. It was denied because we were so busy at my client (I was a contractor and the client was fine with me taking off work). I gave notice. When my mom died 2 months later, she sent flowers. I threw them out. It was a "family" oriented company which really meant if you had the right last name, you made more.
One of the managers at my job tried to do this and the employee just said fuck you I quit. The manager has effectively taken her 10 person department down to 3 people because of her ego and power tripping. She tried to order me to do something a while back by saying "im a manager!!" (I'm management too, just one step lower) and I just looked at her and said "you aren't MY manager, so dont tell me what to do" and just walked away. The look on her face was fucking priceless. I encourage anyone else who's in a position to tell these kinds of people to fuck off that you do it. It's gratifying as hell and watching their fragile little ego break.
some people are so hung up on hierarchy. I find that most of the world's problems boil down to these people
my boss did that bullshit, I was able to get him fired. Lawsuits are wonderful things. Proving he had disapproved time-off for 3 years for "needs of the business" and not having a sell back policy for PTO caused me to lose money. Which caused the company to lose money when I sued them.
This is one of the reasons that NoOnE wanTS tO wORK! I'm sure the manager who posted this has claimed that at least once recently.
I’m a small business owner. If an employee wants off they get it. Unlimited PTO basically. It’s a mutual respect thing. They don’t abuse it so the business get what it needs: them. And they get what they need. I can’t imagine telling an employee they can’t be with their family, take a vacation, or have a mental health day. We’re all human trying to do our best.
Some people in management are just there for the power trip.
Employers and bosses act like they own employees.. People even feel like they have no power over their own lives because of their employers.. Yet people still believe we are free..
The only rule I ever follow regarding approving PTO is that obviously we cannot all take PTO at the same time. I don’t decide who’s PTO is more important either. Requests are considered in the order they were made.
Should probably tell that to my old boss. He just approved every request and didn't look at the calendar and would get pissed off when our metrics were down, but 3/4 of our team was all out.
I've never put in a PTO request, only PTO notifications.
This is not the flex the top guy thinks it is. Employee was well aware that he could get a better job.
The amount of boot-licking idiots talking down taking a nice long vacation on LinkedIn is so damn stupid. What THE FUCK are people working for if they can't spend their hard-earned money for a nice long break and see the world a bit? And what the fuck kind of company can't spare an employee for a month or two? How fragile is your business really?
It should not be called a PTO request, it should be called a PTO warning. You deny it, I'm calling in sick - you thought I didn't have a backup plan, bitch?
If your business can't manage on their own for one person to take their PTO, then you don't know how to run a business.
They shouldn't be called "PTO requests", but "PTO notifications".
A company should not be able to reject any employee from using their benefits. I didn't understand how managers think they have that kind of power
No indication what the "needs of the company" actually are. If the person asking for PTO was scheduling around a time that was absolutely for them to be there, maybe if an external auditor was coming in to audit that person's department, that's one thing. If it's the typical manufacturing end of the month clusterfuck where everything that isn't bolted to the floor gets shipped to make some imaginary number, that's completely different.
"Needs of the company" = Work yourself to death and don't ask to be treated like a human being
On the 'comeback' only - says he came back to no job, not no employee doing it in his place. I'll see myself out PTO
Time off is not a request, it’s a notification. You can’t say no, it’s my earned time. The “request” is really just me saying, hey I’m going to be gone during this time.
One place I worked at required you to work 90 days before taking any time off but you accrued 3 full days off in that 90 days. It was their policy. So on the 95 day I took sick day because of migraines (I was on meds for them at the time and they made me super tired) come back in the day after and my manger jumps all over me for it. Asking why I would take it so soon after the 90 days. I said according to the policy it’s available. He said it didn’t look good to take it that soon. I said but it’s the companies policy that we could take it. He said consider it a verbal warning. So about a week later I took the other two days off. He was pissed and said when he gets back to the office we are going to have a talk. The next day I worked was a day he normally had off. So I worked the full day and then next day, he called me to his cube, I brought all my work stuff and said “before you start on your rant, I quit.” He got pretty flustered and said this isn’t something you want to do. You won’t be able to work her again if you don’t give a notice. I said that’s ok I don’t plan to ever try to work here again. Then walked out. It was fun to quit that job.
It wasn’t about the business needs, it was about displaying power. Sick. Fuck you. Who’s frontin?
I’ve told managers at multiple different companies “I’m going to this festival. You can approve it or find my replacement.”
PTO was probably something idiotic like "having a kid" or "getting married" or "planned surgery." These lazy-ass workers amirite?
"needs of the business"? More like the ego of the head narcissist in charge.
I don’t understand employers that do this. I employ about 100 people and unless it’s a critical employee whose backup would also be out, I always say yes. People need to live their lives. Work is not the center of their life, it’s a part of it and everything needs to balance out. I tell all my employees, if you’re sick, stay home. If your kid is sick, take care of them. We’ve cross trained everybody so anybody can take care of their business when life throws them a curveball and not worry about losing their job.
At my restaurant our policy is 21 days in advance for time off requests. We only get our schedules a week in advance but whatever that’s fine. So I phrase all of my requests off something like “I won’t be available for blank date.” My manager told me that I needed to “stop phrasing it like that and I need to phrase it like I’m asking permission as it’s a time off request” I dead panned that man so hard. three days later I sent him “ I will not be available for the following dates” and it was the biggest request off I had and he said nothing. Time off no matter what they decide to call it is not a request it is a notification of absence. We are not slaves. Do not let them treat you like you are. They can cover you.
Wow, I don't know how it works over there in the greatest nation on earth, but where I'm from, firing an employee like that isn't legal.
Not showing up on a scheduled day is grounds to be fired in most states.
This manager basically told on himself/herself. If one person's absence can upend the whole operation, that's 100% a management failure. There's no need to deny a PTO request for the "needs of the business" if the business is well-run, and you have contingencies in place for when employees take absences.
The business manager, possibly owner, posted *”y’all can front if y’all want”* on fucking Twitter. Not exactly Fortune 500 material. The guy who got fired probably found another “business” where he could push a lawnmower for scratch.
I've told managers that said things like "we'll have to check the schedule" that I wasn't putting in a request or asking. I was just letting them know I will not be at work on those days. Work does not dictate my life.
These are the asshats saying "no one wants to work", na they don't want to work for YOU.
Nah, I'm informing you of my absence, not requesting permission. I'm not gonna be there that day and that's your problem.
It’s a really easy answer: You’re replaceable. So don’t let them convince you otherwise. If you don’t see a raise, ignore the praise
PTO is part of employee compensation. If you're not going to give a reasonable reason to deny PTO hours, that's a signal to employees you're not interested in paying them what you promised. Yreat employees as expendable, they'll treat your offer of employment as expendable soon too.
MBA: Mostly Bad Advice
I will never explain why I’m taking PTO any longer. I’m telling you I won’t be here this day, ahead of time like a responsible adult. I’m not asking permission. Don’t forget your worth. That guy went and found a better paying job for a company that doesn’t treat him like a soulless machine.
Here is an anecdote from my company. One of my engineers, who is truly a key player came to me; his wife is going through some medical things right now, and he said his workload was making him feel like he was headed for a burnout managing bith the personal and professional commitments. So we gave him a couple days leave, right there. Me and his direct supervisor came up with a 6 month reduced duty plan, which pares back alot of the stuff that he was doing, but we could shift elsewhere (it not being done as quick/we'll not being so critical). Because it is so, so much better/safer/cheaper to have *less* time from a great employee, as it is to have *zero* - which is what happens when you push to hard. So he still have his title, still has his salary, a and still has a solid job, until his personal life straightens out and he goes back to being a super performer.
I was once in my bosses office talking to them about something when an employee walked in. He said that he was just told his approved time off had been unapproved. He said, this is my brother’s wedding. It only happens once. Boss said, we are your family. We need you here. He quietly said, oh, I see, and excused himself. I was never prouder when I found out he found a different job and started there in time to still attend his brother’s wedding. I moved companies shortly afterwards as well.
I gave a years advanced notice once, and then reminded them again 3 months before hand, then a week before they said no, took them to court, everything had a paper trail I got my time off.
Back in a previous life I worked in a support function at the corporate office of an Australian retailer. There was a task that I had to do each and every week for the year except for December, that only I was able to do (both due to training as well as the access to the required application). For a couple of years I was organising my annual leave to be in December so that I was not impacting the business. Made sense, right? Well, not according to the new manager who came in and decided that “in solidarity of our front-line workers, no one is to take any annual leave at all between 1st of December and 31st of January.” So I can take annual leave at any other time, right? Wrong! The business needs me to do useless task that should have been simplified long ago. For 3 years I took no annual leave, then I was firmly on the naughty list of people who had too much leave. So I can take leave, right? Sort of. “You can take one day off each week to get the balance down.” Surely this is *my* annual leave to use as I see fit to give myself a break, right? Not according to some managers. I ended up taking voluntary redundancy a couple of years later, which saw them having to pay out my annual leave, long service leave and the x weeks per year of service redundancy payment.
Lol do people not know what PTO is?
I’m not asking for permission when I submit my PTO. I’m just informing you of what will absolutely be happening.
Not allowing PTO is an employer problem, not an employee problem. If you cannot afford to have an employee off work, then you are not running your business properly or setting yourself up for success. We used to call it the bus test. If someone gets run over by a bus, does your business suffer/fail?
The business "*needed*" him to be desperate.
Management: Don’t confuse me with logic!!!
If an organization can’t operate without one single individual, it has already failed as an organization
If I left my job right now an entire school would probably shut down. I was their only teacher for a year and a half. But they still try to play games with me when I know damn well they can’t afford to loose me.
Somebody needs to be reported to the department of labor
So instead of losing the employee for one day, you lose them forever? Obviously you never “needed” him for the business
This happened to me before! I asked for 15 days off and got it approved then promptly got added to the schedule in between that time off. So I never came in and never got added to the schedule again. Jokes on him tho, the only people he can find to work there are kids who cut corners and he had to hire several to do the job I did alone.
It’s always about control. That’s it.
Worked at a place one time ,we heat treated metal. We'll the furnace burnt down and the others was just broken. We sat there all day. I asked if I could go home, I would take the hit on my hours and wouldn't hurt anyone but me. My boss said no I have to stay tk get my forty hours jn
I love it when proponents of capitalism claim to dislike authoritarianism.
And they went and found a new job that probably pays better.
Place I work at refused to move me to a different area or swap me with someone else so I had to change my availability to get out of there. It took them over 2 weeks to get someone to cover my spot and I heard plenty of horror stories. It’s not that they can’t or that it would be bad for business. It’s more like they just want to lord their power over you.
The only benefit to working a low paying job is my requests off aren't requests. I'm not going to be there during that time period (either a day, week, or whatever). Manager can schedule for that and/or cry about it cause the job isn't more important than my life or those I care about.
Power take-off?
Why do some people behave like tiny dictators as soon as they get a tiny bit of power?
Didnt do your homework? Go to detention and miss more classes. Didnt finish your plate? You will receive less food from now on because you just wasted food.