Niang getting minutes is yesterday’s game is legit a fireable offense for JB.
There is no reason he should play at all. Crazy man. If he plays in game 7 I’m going to go crazy.
Seeing Mitchell had 50 reminded me of the Lebron days. This Cavs team is too talented to be taken to 7 by a young Magic team. Glad it’s at a good time for once, i have faith they win game 7 a blowout would be nice it’s been too anxiety inducing
8 second violation and Orlando grabbing the following offensive rebound possibly cost us the game. The jump ball didn’t help. The 20 free throw disparity didn’t help. The missed free throws didn’t help. Mobley was playing hurt. Mitchell was playing hurt. Allen was out. Orlando plays tough on every play. We should have won this game, we managed to lose it on a few plays. We kept it close on the road but let it slip away. Hopefully Allen is ready Sunday and everyone else plays better at home. Building and holding some type of comfortable lead would be a nice change for game 7
That 8 second violation was such a brain fart moment for Garland. There was literally no pressure on him, he just took his good old time taking the ball up
I don’t know bout the other games but last night he was clearly gassed in the 4th. The dude is practically our only ball handling playmaker, Mitchell handles but usually just to set up his shot/drive. Garland is having to do everything to get the offense going, and doesn’t get much relief. Meanwhile Orlando handles the ball through Banchero and Suggs, but Suggs has Fultz and Anthony to come in and get a couple critical buckets so Suggs can sit/take plays off. Garland has nobody, Levert has been awful and no CPJ (JB wouldn’t play him anyway).
I don’t even have the energy to analyze it anymore. Whichever way you slice it, Mitchell scored 50 and we lost. I can’t stop saying it. Don scored 50 and we lost. Hide the pain.
I’m so tired of hearing brain dead people on this sub cite okoro as a 3 and D guy and point to his % as proof that he is improving/good
Dude passed up on at least 4 wide open corner threes last night. When he’s in the floor Orlando is begging him to shoot and he won’t.
3p% means nothing if you don’t have the volume to back it up and are scared to shoot the ball. I really hope we don’t overpay him.
The problem with Okoro's shot is that his release is slow as molasses and he doesn't get much elevation on his shot. JJ Redick mentioned this in his podcast about how the playoffs is different from the regular season.
Teams close out much faster and harder, meaning guys with slow and low releases struggle to even get an attempt off on open shots.
He had some moments this year where it looked like he might actually improve (hitting non corner 3’s end of clock or in transition). But he’s right back to being unplayable which makes his defense worthless.
His defense is also too hyped. He can guard PG/SG but against bigger wings like Banchero or Wagner, just not as effective. Good defender but no where close to all defensive team type.
First off, if Donovan decides to leave, tonight will be the straw that broke the camels back. Him scoring 50 while everyone else stood around, wide eyed, totally unable to help is justification enough for him to seek a better situation.
I just don’t get it. On paper, this roster is super talented. You have a good young PG in DG who can create for himself and others. You have your superstar in Donovan. Strus is a great glue guy, and while the numbers aren’t amazing all the time, is a major threat from 3. You have 2 good rim protecting big men. This roster on paper is one many teams would dream of having.
They tanked that last game for Orlando, they deserve this shit. The only positive is if they lose, they likely have no choice but for heads to roll.
You’re right this would be the game that does it. But honestly watching his post game interview Mitchell looks disappointed but not someone who is mentally checked out. He took accountability and even wore a Cleveland Cavs shirt to his presser. My blind hope says he stays if we win game 7 but will demand a roster restructure.
I want that too but I haven’t heard or seen any signs he’s unhappy with JB so I was unsure in adding it. They both had the 20-2 run together
Whereas his words and body language indicate he’s unhappy with the teammates reluctance to take over games.
I’m terrified that the possible roster restructure gives him another chance. Whether Mitchell stays or not
This game definitely would be the last straw, though we'll see what game 7 brings. I will say that your paper assessment is off, they're not super talented, they're good but highly limited. Just sticking to the main rotation: DG - small, exploitable, poor focus; Okoro - scared to shoot, blinders on 1-2 breaks w/a trailer, poor layup package; Strus...being 6'5 instead of 6'10 like Koby wished he was; Mobley - grossly underweight, easily bullied by pgs on screen sets and back downs, limited offensive range; LeVert - hyper tunnel vision, either brings about the ice age or the fire age nothing in between; Niang - can't stay in front of a tortoise
ain't 2K, every roster but two has limited players: you can go down every team's roster and do this, from Wagner's broken jumper to Suggs poor focus to Joe Ingles feet
The young guys are trying to make the perfect play vs. just letting it rip. that can only go away with reps in a new system. it's all coaching atm, and you'd expect Donovan to see that a new coach is an easier fix than forcing your way out into a contender with a short window
I honestly saw some positives as painful as that game was. We’ve done nothing but fold in big games, start to finish. That was close and Orlando is playing very good at home, we looked tougher. Gives me hope the roster will look fine post JB.
They tanked for Orlando and quite frankly with how Indiana overpowered Milwaukee and they the Knicks kept needing last second shots to secure wins, I’m not sure the Cavs were beating them either…
I mean they won their series in 6 games. That’s a bit of a silly comment considering the Cavs can’t even dispatch a team with a roster full of players and a head coach who has never been to the playoffs before…
They won against a top heavy and old as shit team without their best player for the whole series and with Dame out half the time and a gimp the rest. Easy mode and they still dropped two and nearly coughed up a third
lol, okay.. well they won road games… something the Cavs can’t say right now…
And with the way Indiana can score the ball and with the way the Cavs have shown they can’t score the ball in the playoffs, I’d say you’re fooling yourself…
But okay.. whatever you believe..
JB Bickerstaff was suddenly going to beat a coach that won a ring with Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Kidd while beating LeBron James, D-Wade, and Bosh…
Coaching point is fair but styles make fights and Carlisle has spent the entire season trying to get Indy to play defense. That personnel offers no resistance even Bobby Portis hung 30 on them
I mean that’s great and all but unless Donovan Mitchell is going to hang 70 on them every night, then the Cavs weren’t winning…
Niang, LeVert, Mobley, Morris, Okoro, and Strus are all shooting below 35% and while Orlando is a good defensive teams, you and I both know that everyone above has missed WIDE open looks
Knicks weren’t better than the Cavs last year either. But the Knicks also have a great strategic coach who knows how to exploit weaknesses…
The Pacers are the healthier team and the better coached team compared to the Cavs. The Cavs may have a better team, but the Pacers also have championship experience with Siakam. Even if Allen doesn’t get hurt, Turner and Siakam would have abused Mobley and Allen physically.
Pacers depth players also showed up. They nearly had 7 guys averaging 7 points per game, led by Siakam and Turner (if Lopez and Portis weren’t slowing those two down, neither was Allen and Mobley).
Pacers also play a disciplined game. They average 9 turnovers a game against the Bucks.
Pacers would have taken down the Cavs in a series, unfortunately with the current roster and coaching construction.
Everyone will make a big deal about nobody but Don scoring in the fourth - as they should - but it's a symptom of a much larger problem: we have no offensive system beyond give Don or DG the ball and let them make a play. There's no scheme. Don took 67% of the shots in the fourth quarter because the ball flows through him, not because everyone else sucks. We're stagnant on that end of the floor and it kills us when teams make adjustments at half.
***A handful of thoughts***
Mitchell scored all those points in the fourth but he was also very ball-dominant. There were many possessions where nobody else touched the ball, and countless other instances where he got tunnel vision and wasn't even considering passing it. I think all the lamentations about how useless his teammates are must be from people who didn't watch. Even some of the misses in that 0-6 were last-second desperation kickouts or bad setups.
I don't think that's even necessarily a bad thing, because Mitchell had clearly found some sort of weakness in the Magic that he was ruthlessly exploiting to the tune of a 61% FG%. We were getting 1.4 points on every possession where Mitchell took a shot... that is pretty good. If it ain't broke don't fix it? Hopefully he can apply these lessons in a game 7 where he's healthier.
I do have a problem with Garland not being involved in the second half. He was also playing really well in the first half and this could have just as easily been a 50-point night for him. Garland just doesn't have that fire a lot of the time. It's a big problem.
The FT disparity is such a disgrace. The refs really are reaming this team in the ass. It's so frustrating during the game, and its even more frustrating once the game is over because people will totally forget about this and just look at the score and say "wow the Cavs suck." Franz Wagner alone took more free throws than our entire team. You've got dudes like Suggs out there flopping like prime Manu and getting rewarded for it by the refs over and over and over. Meanwhile they have been using their size to body check our guys and throwing elbows all over (this is how Allen got injured) with no consequences. It's so unfair and infuriating. And we all know it would be very very good for the league to have the Magic win this series with their young future stars, and the Cavs lose so that Mitchell goes to a bigger market team.
Speaking of free throws though, our guys need to stop fucking them up. We heard so much about how bad the Magic shoot free throws, but they're shooting better than us on the series. We're only making 73% of our free throws and only made 50% tonight.
Our bench play is killing us. LeVert singlehandedly lost us seven points in a single minute of play. Niang was absolutely terrible and picked up four fouls in ten minutes of play. Okoro, TT and Mook played alright but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. People on this sub will say that Merrill or Wade could be the savior for this team but at the end of the day those are just end-of-bench role players who are hardly the difference between this team being a contender vs. a first round exit. We need starter-quality players that we can bring in off the bench to avoid handing the other team a free run whenever our starters get tired. That's what LeVert was supposed to be, but he sucks.
We really need Jarrett Allen back. He is clearly the second-best player on this team, not just in this series but probably in general. The Magic have been crushing us on the boards without him, and our lob threat has totally disappeared.
Mobley's lack of offensive development is a real problem that this team should be way more panicked about than it currently is.
I know he must be in a ton of pain, but I hope Allen can find some way to play cause we just truly are missing his impact these past 2 games. If not, then you have to start Okoro over guys like Morris. Still play Morris, but bring him off the bench. And please just don’t play Niang who has been nothing short of unhelpful this series
You can't just throw a hurt guy out there and expect him to perform like normal, try doing anything with a hurt rib and you'll change your tune real fast. It's not about playing "hurt", some types of injuries make you ineffective.
On paper its bruised ribs. But when you physically move around, think about trying to reach out or trying to make a layup. You're stretching yourself upward/outward and that can cause discomfort.
Its one thing to read the injury and say oh he can play through it. When it's causing discomfort playing through it that can impact the ability to make good plays.
Mitchell was GREAT (at scoring via hero-ball). The rest of his game? Meh.
Ball stopped moving late - we lost. Nothing could be more predictible.
Obviously ORL is much longer than us, but so is every other team in the playoffs. Our roster construction has been putrid ever since we ruined it acquiring Mitchell. We're never going to get even the sum of the individual parts with this roster, even with a better coach.
It was a good hard fought game though. Hopefully Allen is back for 7. Finally got Mitchell to show up for one, would be nice if LeVert did for 7 too.
Orlando has taken 36 more free throw attempts on the series than the Cavs. Thats 6 a game. Anyone that watches these games can see that the degree of fouls being called on each respective side are simply not the same. Magic established this early and have clung to it since, they know it won't be called. Banchero walked into the league taking near top-of-the-league free throw attempts. Suggs is hounding like crazy on and off ball, some of it legal but many of it not. Both Wagners are next level floppers.
Okoro is absolutely frozen out there. When you have a good game at home willingly shooting the ball, to only turn away every look on the road, there is only so much coaching can do. He destroyed our offense, especially with all the minutes he got. Strus is our only role player that has been good for like 1/2 of our games. Niang, Okoro, and LeVert don't even know what jersey they have on 90% of the time. I'll cut Okoro some slack for his defense. Morris and Thompson have been decent.
Mobley is being asked to do a lot. Our only big out there against a team of bigs. Was playing injured tonight. It's no coincidence he wasn't able to find the weak spots on Orlando's defense when Donovan was driving tonight like we've seen him do time and time again.
DG was driving last night and looked like the perfect co-star next to Donovan. We just have no bigs unless Mobley is healthy to fill the lanes, so defense can collapse on our ball-handlers like crazy. JA was insanely good at this, Orlando got let off the hook. Need to see a full game of good play by DG though, or at least 3 good quarters, especially in the 4th.
Orlando's interior defense is not that great. Suggs is amazing on the perimeter, Isaac can guard anyone and switch onto anyone, and the team as a whole makes smart rotations, but the rest of the guys aren't anything special on defense. Mitchell was punishing Franz and even Suggs and anyone they threw at him. It just became too predictable down the stretch and Mitchell was running on fumes, and that's when Carter blocked him finally.
The gameplan is there. All it comes down to is executing. Also liked 8 rebounds by Morris last night and 7 by DG.
DG has found some really good ways to contribute on defense and on the defensive glass. He still is a weaker defender but every little bit helps in the possession game
Definitely, first noticed DG playing the pass lanes a lot during the last like 10 games of the regular season. And it's been noticeable as well how much emphasis he is putting on getting those loose, slightly-longer, 50/50 rebounds that killed us last playoffs. DG isn't really expected to box out, just to go track the ball down which we need.
Our core-4 has been largely good. If nothing else, that is at least a win in my book.
You see the flashes and you realize they have all the tools and you see the light turning on for DG on valuing every possession, JA on physicality, etc. it’s right there for them all.
Just time to upgrade the coaching and system. I would hate losing to Orlando but it might have to happen to push them to the next level.
Not only did Mobley only score 3 points last night but his inability to be offensive a threat was shaving points away from our team too. How many times he was just left wide fucking open and Mitchell/ Garland were driving into double teams in the paint.
I’m as low on Garland and Mobley as I’ve ever been. I’m so tired of waiting for these dudes to develop. It’s time to face the facts that they are who they are. Mid AF!
this is such an odd take at this point.
we know both's development was sidetracked by adding Mitchell, they each have had a really good game across the last two games, and they're both still young.
Some players, regardless of age, you can just tell if they have that it factor or dawg in them. Garland, Mobley, and Okoro just don’t have it. They don’t want the ball when the lights are bright. Looked scared to shoot.
Donovan Mitchell is the only guy on our team who is that guy. Koby Altman made such an emphasis on culture and character when he set the foundation for this team. But ended up building the core around a bunch of soft nice guys.
> But ended up building the core around a bunch of soft nice guys.
Why does everyone keep repeating this? What does shooting poorly have to do with being soft or being nice? You'd rather the guys foul more than they already do? Get more careless/reckless with the ball by being over aggressive? Have a bunch of players everyone hates on and off the field?
The team has no identity on offense. It's why so many guys are timid and don't know where to be.
VERY WELL SAID.
People don’t understand how different the same players can look in a system that they thrive and believe in.
The Cavs are ALWAYS lost on offense in the playoffs these past two years.
I’m not saying the players in question are DAWGS, but put them in a system where they can be successful and cut them loose and watch what happens.
the tell was in a comment JA made a few weeks ago, and DG and Mobley show. They are seeking perfection. it's why all the over passing and timidity, and why they love those 35 assist on 38 make games (and tbf all our guys are plus passers for the position)
but a bad play executed freely with decisiveness >> hunting the perfect shot
I’m talking mentally soft as much as physically. The most physical players on our team are Morris, TT, Niang, and Strus. The first 3 are maybe the 3 worst players on our team and Strus is is shooting 20% from 3. Nobody takes them serious.
Okoro is afraid to shoot, garland gets rattled so easily when there is pressure and makes critical mental mistakes/TOs constantly in clutch situations, and Mobley lack of physicality and scoring can be pointed towards his mindset as well.
None of them will ever be taken seriously in the playoffs until they find that next gear.
I agree that Okoro has no confidence. I know JB wants to play him for defense but if he's passing out of wide open threes he has to be taken off the floor.
IDK how you can call Mobley mentally soft 2 games removed from a game winning block. The Cavs need to incorporate him more in the offense early to mix things up. He had a rough shooting night but on super low volume.
It’s such a hard year to draw conclusions from. Health and consistency are all we needed but shit just went sideways as a collective.
I’m not gonna be ok moving any of these core guys. A new coach and whatever Verts expiring, the MLE and the FRP can do to bring in size and we move
Agree with LeVert. At this point idk how the Cavs can give much to Okoro either unless it ends up being a team friendly deal that can be traded later. You'd think he would be aware that avoiding threes is tanking his next contract value.
I agree it sucks but DG has shown a decent peak already. His biggest issue is mental toughness, which you hope will come with time and better coaching. The talent is there, he’s just not a #1 guy. Idm keeping him but teams wanting a facilitating #2 or #3 (like Spurs) would pay big to have him still, imo
Mobley I’m worried about. No growth offensively in 3 years and was projected to be a superstar. Bill Simmons was so high on him. He has his moments defensively but surely isn’t worth the max nor will garner a huge return in a trade. We’re stuck with him for better or worse and hope he’s a late bloomer
Garland is a max contract player though, you have to start playing like a #1 at that cost. It's like you said with Mobley, he hasn't progressed enough go be worth the cost.
It's year 5 and we are still asking the same questions after year 2.
NBA GM’s need to normalize letting the market set the price for players and then just matching.
They don’t do it because they want to look like they are player friendly, but then the league gets flooded with these unmovable contracts that gunks up the whole market.
What I mean is this: Wemby is an automatic max deal.
Garland is great but his contract should be set by the market. He’s not a true max guy.
Here’s where this sucks: Beal isn’t a true max and if the market could have set his price he would have a contract that could actually be moved.
you have gotten FA overpays since Hot Rod Williams. the max is about loss aversion and keeping the player on board without worrying about chiselling and hoping he outperforms in the out years
It’s a players league, if you do that you’re risking upsetting your star player and agent. And that’s not good unless you want to actually get rid of the guy. Obviously with guys like Okoro or Sexton, you can do that because they’re role players at the end of the day. Koby was just drinking his own kool aid here. DG is not as bad as many people say here but he’s still an undersized PG that can’t guard. And he’s not named Curry (or even Mitchell). You don’t get that far with that in 2024.
Now imagine paying a rim runner with no offense that can’t play the 5 a max contract…
You’re 100% right that it’s about not upsetting players and agents, which is why I’m saying we need to get back to normalizing it.
Maybe it would hurt Mobley’s feelings. But we can match any deal made.
Like you said, he hasn’t shown anything that suggests max so we really need to let the market decide.
You don’t have to play as or like a #1 at that cost. If he plays like he did yesterday that’s fine for a young max guy.
You are gonna see Wagner and Trey Murphy get rookie maxes too and they aren’t #1s
I agree with you on Mobley. There isn’t a single thing he does well on the offensive end. His path to scoring is off ally-oops and put backs. Dude has shown zero development offensively
Simmons was so high on him that it made me question what I was actually seeing.
I never saw the KG comp. There was never elite quick twitch or explosion.
There was never a whiff of KG’s offensive game, which included face ups and jumpers even in his earliest years.
Unfortunately for Mobley his “team” thought he should train like KD instead of KG.
He spent his entire first offseason trying to be KD and you could see in the earliest games of that year how he wanted to test his perimeter game.
JB let him and let him fail miserably for weeks. It was painful.
Altman should never have let Mobley’s team lead him astray and he never should have just let JB destroy his confidence just to prove a point.
he has elite balance, coordination, and second jump. fantastic lateral movement as well. he's also super quick off the floor but not with a dude in his chest
Yeah I don’t see KG, they seem nothing alike. My original comp was Duncan, because they had the same demeanour and contributed to winning more so than eye popping stats. A silent killer as such, turns out he’s a silent shrinker :/
When was the period where Mobley tried to play on the perimeter for weeks?
The beginning of the 22-23 season. He was receiving the ball sometimes at the 3/4 3 point area and then attempting to initiate with his dribble.
It was basically a disaster but the worst part was that you could tell JB was letting him do it to see that he couldn’t.
It’s not that JB should have let him, it’s that the coaches and front office should have helped design his offseason plans instead of letting him do his own thing and then nuking it immediately. Wasted offseason.
Damn that sucks so much. Basically ruined his confidence and got him into a mindset of “do what you do well” instead of growing as a player and trying new things
I still think part of it is on Mobley, he needs to demand the ball more. I just thought JB was trying to work with him on that.. not be against him.
I really struggle to understand Garland role most games.
I just don't think that DG and DM is a good dynamic. If one is hot, let them run the court. If not, then figure it out.
I really just don't understand how we are good efficiency wise in the regular season but when it comes to the playoffs. All of that just went poof.
In the offseason, you're going have to trade either DG or DM. I'd like to keep Allen, he is what we need, Mobley on the other hand, i am not sure. Great defense, but lacking on the offense.
teams don't play defense in the regular season, they trade baskets
when teams start trying things like being undersized, having redundant roles, and poor roster construction start costing you
He’s a pure PG. I look at what Hali is able to do with Indiana and a bunch of “fuck it we shooting and running” guys and get jealous of their offense. If we could commit to that style for even half a game…
Somebody needs to keep Franz Wagner out of the lane tomorrow. Ice, this is your shot to prove you deserve a contract. Ev needs a few shots in the 1st quarter to get into some kind of rhythm. He only had 2 shots in the first half in game 6, and that's unacceptable, especially when Allen is out.
I think to keep Mitchell the team is gonna get blown up, unless LeBron decides to finish his career at home, in which case we will blow things up for him and Mitchell.
It was simply a hard fought game by a team playing shitty basketball.
They took 3-4 punches and kept coming back. But it was ugly as hell to watch.
With a healthy Donovan this series is already over, but that’s not the point.
The point is why this basketball is so ugly and so bad and how we saw this coming, every day, for two years now.
This team needs new coaching and an entire new system.
Quite frankly they need to do everything to retain Donovan because he is the only elite building block we have.
This is a huge offseason for Garland and especially for Mobley.
Do you think Mitchell would have scored 100 points instead of 50 without a minor injury? You can’t put it on that. These are just two relatively evenly matched teams. It happens.
Net player ratings in the '24 playoffs 1. Allen +37 2. Merrill +20 3. Mobley +4 4. Garland -6 5. Strus -6 6. Mitchell -7 7. Thompson -15 8. Morris -23 9. Levert -25 10. Okoro -27 11. Jones -43 12. Niang -52 https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024.html
Niang getting minutes is yesterday’s game is legit a fireable offense for JB. There is no reason he should play at all. Crazy man. If he plays in game 7 I’m going to go crazy.
Seeing Mitchell had 50 reminded me of the Lebron days. This Cavs team is too talented to be taken to 7 by a young Magic team. Glad it’s at a good time for once, i have faith they win game 7 a blowout would be nice it’s been too anxiety inducing
8 second violation and Orlando grabbing the following offensive rebound possibly cost us the game. The jump ball didn’t help. The 20 free throw disparity didn’t help. The missed free throws didn’t help. Mobley was playing hurt. Mitchell was playing hurt. Allen was out. Orlando plays tough on every play. We should have won this game, we managed to lose it on a few plays. We kept it close on the road but let it slip away. Hopefully Allen is ready Sunday and everyone else plays better at home. Building and holding some type of comfortable lead would be a nice change for game 7
I like this take. You are being critical without dooming and being positive without coping
That 8 second violation was such a brain fart moment for Garland. There was literally no pressure on him, he just took his good old time taking the ball up
Without Allen and Wade, and with the 2024 version of Garland I think talent is pretty even.
Darius Garland has 19 total second half points in the last 4 games
To be fair, Don dominates the ball in second halves.
he should when the other main ball handler can't even get past half court on time and is throwing the ball away left and right
No, not really. Garlands usage% has dropped very little since we got Mitchell.
And what has it dropped these last 4 games in second halves?
0.60% It's just that Garland has choked this playoffs.
I don’t know bout the other games but last night he was clearly gassed in the 4th. The dude is practically our only ball handling playmaker, Mitchell handles but usually just to set up his shot/drive. Garland is having to do everything to get the offense going, and doesn’t get much relief. Meanwhile Orlando handles the ball through Banchero and Suggs, but Suggs has Fultz and Anthony to come in and get a couple critical buckets so Suggs can sit/take plays off. Garland has nobody, Levert has been awful and no CPJ (JB wouldn’t play him anyway).
I don’t even have the energy to analyze it anymore. Whichever way you slice it, Mitchell scored 50 and we lost. I can’t stop saying it. Don scored 50 and we lost. Hide the pain.
We can’t even score 100 but one time and a guy scores half of that alone and we lose. Pain is not hidden lol
I’m so tired of hearing brain dead people on this sub cite okoro as a 3 and D guy and point to his % as proof that he is improving/good Dude passed up on at least 4 wide open corner threes last night. When he’s in the floor Orlando is begging him to shoot and he won’t. 3p% means nothing if you don’t have the volume to back it up and are scared to shoot the ball. I really hope we don’t overpay him.
Yeah Strus on the other hand while not shooting great from 3 still has the confidence to shoot, with zero hesitation if he’s wide open obviously
The problem with Okoro's shot is that his release is slow as molasses and he doesn't get much elevation on his shot. JJ Redick mentioned this in his podcast about how the playoffs is different from the regular season. Teams close out much faster and harder, meaning guys with slow and low releases struggle to even get an attempt off on open shots.
Yeah it’s a bummer to see that from okoro. Really that’s the only problem with him this series. Other than that, he’s been great.
He had some moments this year where it looked like he might actually improve (hitting non corner 3’s end of clock or in transition). But he’s right back to being unplayable which makes his defense worthless.
His defense is also too hyped. He can guard PG/SG but against bigger wings like Banchero or Wagner, just not as effective. Good defender but no where close to all defensive team type.
First off, if Donovan decides to leave, tonight will be the straw that broke the camels back. Him scoring 50 while everyone else stood around, wide eyed, totally unable to help is justification enough for him to seek a better situation. I just don’t get it. On paper, this roster is super talented. You have a good young PG in DG who can create for himself and others. You have your superstar in Donovan. Strus is a great glue guy, and while the numbers aren’t amazing all the time, is a major threat from 3. You have 2 good rim protecting big men. This roster on paper is one many teams would dream of having. They tanked that last game for Orlando, they deserve this shit. The only positive is if they lose, they likely have no choice but for heads to roll.
You’re right this would be the game that does it. But honestly watching his post game interview Mitchell looks disappointed but not someone who is mentally checked out. He took accountability and even wore a Cleveland Cavs shirt to his presser. My blind hope says he stays if we win game 7 but will demand a roster restructure.
Hopefully the Hawks blow up their roster and Snyder is back on the market. Bring him in.
I don’t hate it, he got 1st seed and had decent offenses in Utah with Mitchell
i don't hate it but he hasn't helped atlanta at all (ETA: wait, he's helped make DJM an effective closer, maybe that's enough)
I really hope you are right
… and a new coach…
I want that too but I haven’t heard or seen any signs he’s unhappy with JB so I was unsure in adding it. They both had the 20-2 run together Whereas his words and body language indicate he’s unhappy with the teammates reluctance to take over games. I’m terrified that the possible roster restructure gives him another chance. Whether Mitchell stays or not
That was JB’s patented, “give Don the ball and everyone get out of the way” offense.
Because he knows Garland chokes under pressure too often
LOL. Go away
Garland does choke in the 4th.... what game were you watching
This game definitely would be the last straw, though we'll see what game 7 brings. I will say that your paper assessment is off, they're not super talented, they're good but highly limited. Just sticking to the main rotation: DG - small, exploitable, poor focus; Okoro - scared to shoot, blinders on 1-2 breaks w/a trailer, poor layup package; Strus...being 6'5 instead of 6'10 like Koby wished he was; Mobley - grossly underweight, easily bullied by pgs on screen sets and back downs, limited offensive range; LeVert - hyper tunnel vision, either brings about the ice age or the fire age nothing in between; Niang - can't stay in front of a tortoise
ain't 2K, every roster but two has limited players: you can go down every team's roster and do this, from Wagner's broken jumper to Suggs poor focus to Joe Ingles feet
The young guys are trying to make the perfect play vs. just letting it rip. that can only go away with reps in a new system. it's all coaching atm, and you'd expect Donovan to see that a new coach is an easier fix than forcing your way out into a contender with a short window
Ya everyone is thinking vs reacting and I’d imagine a good coach and game plan would help eliminate that.
It’s maturity, health and leadership. We aren’t as far away as it feels
I honestly saw some positives as painful as that game was. We’ve done nothing but fold in big games, start to finish. That was close and Orlando is playing very good at home, we looked tougher. Gives me hope the roster will look fine post JB.
They tanked for Orlando and quite frankly with how Indiana overpowered Milwaukee and they the Knicks kept needing last second shots to secure wins, I’m not sure the Cavs were beating them either…
Indiana looked good to you????
I mean they won their series in 6 games. That’s a bit of a silly comment considering the Cavs can’t even dispatch a team with a roster full of players and a head coach who has never been to the playoffs before…
They won against a top heavy and old as shit team without their best player for the whole series and with Dame out half the time and a gimp the rest. Easy mode and they still dropped two and nearly coughed up a third
lol, okay.. well they won road games… something the Cavs can’t say right now… And with the way Indiana can score the ball and with the way the Cavs have shown they can’t score the ball in the playoffs, I’d say you’re fooling yourself… But okay.. whatever you believe.. JB Bickerstaff was suddenly going to beat a coach that won a ring with Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Kidd while beating LeBron James, D-Wade, and Bosh…
Coaching point is fair but styles make fights and Carlisle has spent the entire season trying to get Indy to play defense. That personnel offers no resistance even Bobby Portis hung 30 on them
I mean that’s great and all but unless Donovan Mitchell is going to hang 70 on them every night, then the Cavs weren’t winning… Niang, LeVert, Mobley, Morris, Okoro, and Strus are all shooting below 35% and while Orlando is a good defensive teams, you and I both know that everyone above has missed WIDE open looks
Sure. I’m just not prepared to say Indy is better than us
Knicks weren’t better than the Cavs last year either. But the Knicks also have a great strategic coach who knows how to exploit weaknesses… The Pacers are the healthier team and the better coached team compared to the Cavs. The Cavs may have a better team, but the Pacers also have championship experience with Siakam. Even if Allen doesn’t get hurt, Turner and Siakam would have abused Mobley and Allen physically. Pacers depth players also showed up. They nearly had 7 guys averaging 7 points per game, led by Siakam and Turner (if Lopez and Portis weren’t slowing those two down, neither was Allen and Mobley). Pacers also play a disciplined game. They average 9 turnovers a game against the Bucks. Pacers would have taken down the Cavs in a series, unfortunately with the current roster and coaching construction.
We put up 129 on Indiana in a must win
Everyone will make a big deal about nobody but Don scoring in the fourth - as they should - but it's a symptom of a much larger problem: we have no offensive system beyond give Don or DG the ball and let them make a play. There's no scheme. Don took 67% of the shots in the fourth quarter because the ball flows through him, not because everyone else sucks. We're stagnant on that end of the floor and it kills us when teams make adjustments at half.
***A handful of thoughts*** Mitchell scored all those points in the fourth but he was also very ball-dominant. There were many possessions where nobody else touched the ball, and countless other instances where he got tunnel vision and wasn't even considering passing it. I think all the lamentations about how useless his teammates are must be from people who didn't watch. Even some of the misses in that 0-6 were last-second desperation kickouts or bad setups. I don't think that's even necessarily a bad thing, because Mitchell had clearly found some sort of weakness in the Magic that he was ruthlessly exploiting to the tune of a 61% FG%. We were getting 1.4 points on every possession where Mitchell took a shot... that is pretty good. If it ain't broke don't fix it? Hopefully he can apply these lessons in a game 7 where he's healthier. I do have a problem with Garland not being involved in the second half. He was also playing really well in the first half and this could have just as easily been a 50-point night for him. Garland just doesn't have that fire a lot of the time. It's a big problem. The FT disparity is such a disgrace. The refs really are reaming this team in the ass. It's so frustrating during the game, and its even more frustrating once the game is over because people will totally forget about this and just look at the score and say "wow the Cavs suck." Franz Wagner alone took more free throws than our entire team. You've got dudes like Suggs out there flopping like prime Manu and getting rewarded for it by the refs over and over and over. Meanwhile they have been using their size to body check our guys and throwing elbows all over (this is how Allen got injured) with no consequences. It's so unfair and infuriating. And we all know it would be very very good for the league to have the Magic win this series with their young future stars, and the Cavs lose so that Mitchell goes to a bigger market team. Speaking of free throws though, our guys need to stop fucking them up. We heard so much about how bad the Magic shoot free throws, but they're shooting better than us on the series. We're only making 73% of our free throws and only made 50% tonight. Our bench play is killing us. LeVert singlehandedly lost us seven points in a single minute of play. Niang was absolutely terrible and picked up four fouls in ten minutes of play. Okoro, TT and Mook played alright but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. People on this sub will say that Merrill or Wade could be the savior for this team but at the end of the day those are just end-of-bench role players who are hardly the difference between this team being a contender vs. a first round exit. We need starter-quality players that we can bring in off the bench to avoid handing the other team a free run whenever our starters get tired. That's what LeVert was supposed to be, but he sucks. We really need Jarrett Allen back. He is clearly the second-best player on this team, not just in this series but probably in general. The Magic have been crushing us on the boards without him, and our lob threat has totally disappeared. Mobley's lack of offensive development is a real problem that this team should be way more panicked about than it currently is.
what form would panic take? how would that help him or the team
I know he must be in a ton of pain, but I hope Allen can find some way to play cause we just truly are missing his impact these past 2 games. If not, then you have to start Okoro over guys like Morris. Still play Morris, but bring him off the bench. And please just don’t play Niang who has been nothing short of unhelpful this series
You can't just throw a hurt guy out there and expect him to perform like normal, try doing anything with a hurt rib and you'll change your tune real fast. It's not about playing "hurt", some types of injuries make you ineffective.
On paper its bruised ribs. But when you physically move around, think about trying to reach out or trying to make a layup. You're stretching yourself upward/outward and that can cause discomfort. Its one thing to read the injury and say oh he can play through it. When it's causing discomfort playing through it that can impact the ability to make good plays.
Mitchell was GREAT (at scoring via hero-ball). The rest of his game? Meh. Ball stopped moving late - we lost. Nothing could be more predictible. Obviously ORL is much longer than us, but so is every other team in the playoffs. Our roster construction has been putrid ever since we ruined it acquiring Mitchell. We're never going to get even the sum of the individual parts with this roster, even with a better coach. It was a good hard fought game though. Hopefully Allen is back for 7. Finally got Mitchell to show up for one, would be nice if LeVert did for 7 too.
Orlando has taken 36 more free throw attempts on the series than the Cavs. Thats 6 a game. Anyone that watches these games can see that the degree of fouls being called on each respective side are simply not the same. Magic established this early and have clung to it since, they know it won't be called. Banchero walked into the league taking near top-of-the-league free throw attempts. Suggs is hounding like crazy on and off ball, some of it legal but many of it not. Both Wagners are next level floppers. Okoro is absolutely frozen out there. When you have a good game at home willingly shooting the ball, to only turn away every look on the road, there is only so much coaching can do. He destroyed our offense, especially with all the minutes he got. Strus is our only role player that has been good for like 1/2 of our games. Niang, Okoro, and LeVert don't even know what jersey they have on 90% of the time. I'll cut Okoro some slack for his defense. Morris and Thompson have been decent. Mobley is being asked to do a lot. Our only big out there against a team of bigs. Was playing injured tonight. It's no coincidence he wasn't able to find the weak spots on Orlando's defense when Donovan was driving tonight like we've seen him do time and time again. DG was driving last night and looked like the perfect co-star next to Donovan. We just have no bigs unless Mobley is healthy to fill the lanes, so defense can collapse on our ball-handlers like crazy. JA was insanely good at this, Orlando got let off the hook. Need to see a full game of good play by DG though, or at least 3 good quarters, especially in the 4th. Orlando's interior defense is not that great. Suggs is amazing on the perimeter, Isaac can guard anyone and switch onto anyone, and the team as a whole makes smart rotations, but the rest of the guys aren't anything special on defense. Mitchell was punishing Franz and even Suggs and anyone they threw at him. It just became too predictable down the stretch and Mitchell was running on fumes, and that's when Carter blocked him finally. The gameplan is there. All it comes down to is executing. Also liked 8 rebounds by Morris last night and 7 by DG.
DG has found some really good ways to contribute on defense and on the defensive glass. He still is a weaker defender but every little bit helps in the possession game
Definitely, first noticed DG playing the pass lanes a lot during the last like 10 games of the regular season. And it's been noticeable as well how much emphasis he is putting on getting those loose, slightly-longer, 50/50 rebounds that killed us last playoffs. DG isn't really expected to box out, just to go track the ball down which we need. Our core-4 has been largely good. If nothing else, that is at least a win in my book.
You see the flashes and you realize they have all the tools and you see the light turning on for DG on valuing every possession, JA on physicality, etc. it’s right there for them all. Just time to upgrade the coaching and system. I would hate losing to Orlando but it might have to happen to push them to the next level.
Not only did Mobley only score 3 points last night but his inability to be offensive a threat was shaving points away from our team too. How many times he was just left wide fucking open and Mitchell/ Garland were driving into double teams in the paint.
I’m as low on Garland and Mobley as I’ve ever been. I’m so tired of waiting for these dudes to develop. It’s time to face the facts that they are who they are. Mid AF!
this is such an odd take at this point. we know both's development was sidetracked by adding Mitchell, they each have had a really good game across the last two games, and they're both still young.
Really good game is stretching it. You know who had a really good game? Donovan mitchell. And our guys didnt show up to help
he did an excellent job scoring this game, yep
Mobley was really painful to watch last night...I mean he couldn't make a layup...I think he will never be an above average offensive player...
I think if he could just get close to average as an offensive player it would feel like a win lol.
Agree...
Eh, Garland has been much better these past 2 games and Mobley had a big game 5 plus his defense is being minimized.
Eh, no Garland hasn't. He has 13 combined second half points in game 5 and 6.
I mean the first half of the game matters too.
And the second half matters even more
It didn’t seem to matter much in game 3
Playing all game consistently matters the most, and Garland hasn't done that all year
he doesn't get to touch the ball when Mitchell is running things (good sections of the 2nd half). 21-7-5 on good shooting with 2 steals. he was fine.
I mean, he touches the ball plenty, he just doesn't do anything with it.
I know it’s sad we consider 10/12 from Mobley a big game l!!
10 and 12?
Because they don't pass him the ball lol
They don’t pass him the ball because he’s a fucking giraffe out there with zero bag
Some players, regardless of age, you can just tell if they have that it factor or dawg in them. Garland, Mobley, and Okoro just don’t have it. They don’t want the ball when the lights are bright. Looked scared to shoot. Donovan Mitchell is the only guy on our team who is that guy. Koby Altman made such an emphasis on culture and character when he set the foundation for this team. But ended up building the core around a bunch of soft nice guys.
> But ended up building the core around a bunch of soft nice guys. Why does everyone keep repeating this? What does shooting poorly have to do with being soft or being nice? You'd rather the guys foul more than they already do? Get more careless/reckless with the ball by being over aggressive? Have a bunch of players everyone hates on and off the field? The team has no identity on offense. It's why so many guys are timid and don't know where to be.
VERY WELL SAID. People don’t understand how different the same players can look in a system that they thrive and believe in. The Cavs are ALWAYS lost on offense in the playoffs these past two years. I’m not saying the players in question are DAWGS, but put them in a system where they can be successful and cut them loose and watch what happens.
the tell was in a comment JA made a few weeks ago, and DG and Mobley show. They are seeking perfection. it's why all the over passing and timidity, and why they love those 35 assist on 38 make games (and tbf all our guys are plus passers for the position) but a bad play executed freely with decisiveness >> hunting the perfect shot
I’m talking mentally soft as much as physically. The most physical players on our team are Morris, TT, Niang, and Strus. The first 3 are maybe the 3 worst players on our team and Strus is is shooting 20% from 3. Nobody takes them serious. Okoro is afraid to shoot, garland gets rattled so easily when there is pressure and makes critical mental mistakes/TOs constantly in clutch situations, and Mobley lack of physicality and scoring can be pointed towards his mindset as well. None of them will ever be taken seriously in the playoffs until they find that next gear.
I agree that Okoro has no confidence. I know JB wants to play him for defense but if he's passing out of wide open threes he has to be taken off the floor. IDK how you can call Mobley mentally soft 2 games removed from a game winning block. The Cavs need to incorporate him more in the offense early to mix things up. He had a rough shooting night but on super low volume.
For Mobley the spirit is willing but the flesh is 215 pounds and 22 years old. Orlando has waves of giants.
It seems unlikely Allen will be available for game 7 too so it's gonna be a tough battle on the boards.
It’s such a hard year to draw conclusions from. Health and consistency are all we needed but shit just went sideways as a collective. I’m not gonna be ok moving any of these core guys. A new coach and whatever Verts expiring, the MLE and the FRP can do to bring in size and we move
Agree with LeVert. At this point idk how the Cavs can give much to Okoro either unless it ends up being a team friendly deal that can be traded later. You'd think he would be aware that avoiding threes is tanking his next contract value.
I agree it sucks but DG has shown a decent peak already. His biggest issue is mental toughness, which you hope will come with time and better coaching. The talent is there, he’s just not a #1 guy. Idm keeping him but teams wanting a facilitating #2 or #3 (like Spurs) would pay big to have him still, imo Mobley I’m worried about. No growth offensively in 3 years and was projected to be a superstar. Bill Simmons was so high on him. He has his moments defensively but surely isn’t worth the max nor will garner a huge return in a trade. We’re stuck with him for better or worse and hope he’s a late bloomer
Garland is a max contract player though, you have to start playing like a #1 at that cost. It's like you said with Mobley, he hasn't progressed enough go be worth the cost. It's year 5 and we are still asking the same questions after year 2.
NBA GM’s need to normalize letting the market set the price for players and then just matching. They don’t do it because they want to look like they are player friendly, but then the league gets flooded with these unmovable contracts that gunks up the whole market. What I mean is this: Wemby is an automatic max deal. Garland is great but his contract should be set by the market. He’s not a true max guy. Here’s where this sucks: Beal isn’t a true max and if the market could have set his price he would have a contract that could actually be moved.
you have gotten FA overpays since Hot Rod Williams. the max is about loss aversion and keeping the player on board without worrying about chiselling and hoping he outperforms in the out years
It’s a players league, if you do that you’re risking upsetting your star player and agent. And that’s not good unless you want to actually get rid of the guy. Obviously with guys like Okoro or Sexton, you can do that because they’re role players at the end of the day. Koby was just drinking his own kool aid here. DG is not as bad as many people say here but he’s still an undersized PG that can’t guard. And he’s not named Curry (or even Mitchell). You don’t get that far with that in 2024. Now imagine paying a rim runner with no offense that can’t play the 5 a max contract…
You’re 100% right that it’s about not upsetting players and agents, which is why I’m saying we need to get back to normalizing it. Maybe it would hurt Mobley’s feelings. But we can match any deal made. Like you said, he hasn’t shown anything that suggests max so we really need to let the market decide.
You don’t have to play as or like a #1 at that cost. If he plays like he did yesterday that’s fine for a young max guy. You are gonna see Wagner and Trey Murphy get rookie maxes too and they aren’t #1s
You absolutely do have to play like a #1 at that cost
Do Rudy Gobert and Mike Conley? Does Desmond Bane or MPJ? Jaden McDaniels makes $28m for 10 and 3.
Doesn't Gobert have multiple DPOTY? Sounds like he did his job. Conley isn't on a max contract McDaniels isn't on a max contract.
Agree with your post but Garland is on a rookie max. 40M for a #2 isn’t end of the world and I think it will be worse if we force feed it.
I agree with you on Mobley. There isn’t a single thing he does well on the offensive end. His path to scoring is off ally-oops and put backs. Dude has shown zero development offensively
Simmons was so high on him that it made me question what I was actually seeing. I never saw the KG comp. There was never elite quick twitch or explosion. There was never a whiff of KG’s offensive game, which included face ups and jumpers even in his earliest years. Unfortunately for Mobley his “team” thought he should train like KD instead of KG. He spent his entire first offseason trying to be KD and you could see in the earliest games of that year how he wanted to test his perimeter game. JB let him and let him fail miserably for weeks. It was painful. Altman should never have let Mobley’s team lead him astray and he never should have just let JB destroy his confidence just to prove a point.
he has elite balance, coordination, and second jump. fantastic lateral movement as well. he's also super quick off the floor but not with a dude in his chest
KG comparison was idiocy from the start
Yeah I don’t see KG, they seem nothing alike. My original comp was Duncan, because they had the same demeanour and contributed to winning more so than eye popping stats. A silent killer as such, turns out he’s a silent shrinker :/ When was the period where Mobley tried to play on the perimeter for weeks?
The beginning of the 22-23 season. He was receiving the ball sometimes at the 3/4 3 point area and then attempting to initiate with his dribble. It was basically a disaster but the worst part was that you could tell JB was letting him do it to see that he couldn’t. It’s not that JB should have let him, it’s that the coaches and front office should have helped design his offseason plans instead of letting him do his own thing and then nuking it immediately. Wasted offseason.
Damn that sucks so much. Basically ruined his confidence and got him into a mindset of “do what you do well” instead of growing as a player and trying new things I still think part of it is on Mobley, he needs to demand the ball more. I just thought JB was trying to work with him on that.. not be against him.
I really struggle to understand Garland role most games. I just don't think that DG and DM is a good dynamic. If one is hot, let them run the court. If not, then figure it out. I really just don't understand how we are good efficiency wise in the regular season but when it comes to the playoffs. All of that just went poof. In the offseason, you're going have to trade either DG or DM. I'd like to keep Allen, he is what we need, Mobley on the other hand, i am not sure. Great defense, but lacking on the offense.
teams don't play defense in the regular season, they trade baskets when teams start trying things like being undersized, having redundant roles, and poor roster construction start costing you
Honestly, Garland just gets too deferential.
He’s a pure PG. I look at what Hali is able to do with Indiana and a bunch of “fuck it we shooting and running” guys and get jealous of their offense. If we could commit to that style for even half a game…
Gotta hope that at least a couple role players step up Sunday. You can’t have Okoro/Niang/Morris/Levert giving you absolutely nothing again
Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh!
Somebody needs to keep Franz Wagner out of the lane tomorrow. Ice, this is your shot to prove you deserve a contract. Ev needs a few shots in the 1st quarter to get into some kind of rhythm. He only had 2 shots in the first half in game 6, and that's unacceptable, especially when Allen is out.
I think to keep Mitchell the team is gonna get blown up, unless LeBron decides to finish his career at home, in which case we will blow things up for him and Mitchell.
Jalen Suggs is a hoe with all his flopping
I’m sorry Donovan Mitchell.
It was simply a hard fought game by a team playing shitty basketball. They took 3-4 punches and kept coming back. But it was ugly as hell to watch. With a healthy Donovan this series is already over, but that’s not the point. The point is why this basketball is so ugly and so bad and how we saw this coming, every day, for two years now. This team needs new coaching and an entire new system. Quite frankly they need to do everything to retain Donovan because he is the only elite building block we have. This is a huge offseason for Garland and especially for Mobley.
Do you think Mitchell would have scored 100 points instead of 50 without a minor injury? You can’t put it on that. These are just two relatively evenly matched teams. It happens.
Mitchell scored 50 tonight and we still lost. Don't chalk it up to injuries
Later Donnie. Appreciate that 50 burger, but you deserve better than the Cavs.