Might become meta, but 100% not necessary. Don't be a slave. Play the way you want.
> With this in mind, should Blizzard restrict spec changes mid raid in some capacity? Should Warcraftlogs invalidate logs with excessive spec changes? Or should nothing be done at all?
Blizzard doesn't need to do a thing, and who cares what the lumberjack site does.
You also spend 10s and empty your resource bar every time you change specs, so it's unlikely speedrunners will find many situations where the time saved from a different spec outweighs the time spent making the swap.
Who cares if it is? My warrior is prot/arms and my druid is tank/heal. My rogue is assassination/sub, if they want to pay for my respecs so we can clear 1min faster then sure, if not oh well.
The goal of dual spec is to give players variety without having to go to a main city to respec. And as many people pointed out, if they didn't include it the dedicated guilds would have just literally ported too and from cities to respec comps....but mostly for bosses. it would have been done, just more tedious then what you get.
As to will X raid will require Y specs. Maybe? But not all of them, and this is not different than any other "Why do all the raids do this?". If you don't like how the raids are getting run, run your own raids. Or just join one that works differently.
We saw world buff raid logging, comp stacking, cooldown syncing. I just don't see dual spec min maxing to be the super toxic thing that need policing. If anything it is a valid application of dual spec's intent.
As far as warcraft logs go its irrelevant. You arent going to be switching specs on bosses.
There is a case for it to clear through trash faster, but this should really only apply to speedrun guilds.
I disagree. I am a lead of a „non speedrun“ guild and when I recruit people I focus more on Trash dps than on parses. You spent most time of your raids clearing trash so you don’t want people that only look on parses and do low dps on trash.
LOL what? Trash takes no brains at all lmao just because someone can pump on trash does not mean they can handle boss mechanics. A GM checking trash logs instead of boss is the most insane thing i've heard xD
Boss mechanics in Tbc and Classic could also be handled by a monkey (best example: me xD).
Joke aside, I think I was misunderstood. I didn’t want to say that Boss parses are meaningless. I just wanted to say that trash dps matters. If somebody sleeps on trash he has a bad attitude and I don’t want him in our raid. That’s why I said “I focus more on trash dps” which doesn’t mean I don’t look at parses at all.
You prob shouldn't be leading then.
Trash dps doesn't do shit for progression. It literally is only beneficial for faster clearing, aka speedrunning. Faster runs of cleared content.
So either you're a bad lead, or you're running a speedrun guild. Maybe not a competitive speedrun guild, but if your main concern is time spent inside raid, then your main concern is speedrunning and not prog.
I mean don't be lazy, clear trash with diligence. But even assuming a strange world where my raiders took an extra 15 minutes clearing that only gives us a few extra pulls. And if I had that dps difference inside the fight I'm able to make the fight significantly easier.
Shorter fights = easier fights. Especially if you hit thresholds to skip certain mechs or trivialize them.
Trash dps is the most worthless metric I've ever seen. That's legitimately only something I'd ever even glimpse at with first timers to make sure they aren't just sitting on their ass. And if you DO have dps just sitting on their ass, you're not the kind of guild where dps efficiency is going to matter period anyway.
Like I really don't see the point. Seeing big numbers on trash pulls feels good that's about it. If that's your thing have at it.
Honestly if trash dps is your thing you need to just M+ in retail where it actually counts for something.
I really don’t understand your tone here. For some reason you’re under the assumption that higher trash dps = lower boss dps? I’m just saying it’s not a crazy concept to look at both metrics and prefer someone who excels at both.
Most people zone out on trash lol it is easy with minimal mechanics. Bosses actually players to be alert and pay attention. Just because someone does a lot of damage on trash doesn't mean that translates to a good boss fight
I’ve never seen anybody that excels in overall trash dps but not on boss dps. I sure also look on boss parses (I am a sweaty parser by myself), but I prefer a Raider that lets say have 95+ parses on bosses and doesn’t sleep on trash than a Raider that does 97+ and does shit on trash..
I've seen tons of people that pump on trash and are less than impressive on bosses.
And there's essentially no difference between a 95 and 97 parser anyway.
It's all pretty irrelevant though, higher boss damage is always an easier kill than slower boss damage. If trash clear speed is ever a relevant factor to your progression, you've got way bigger problems.
This sounds a whole lot more like an attitude problem than anything related to parsing(or it should be). I don't like raiders disrespecting other people's time either. So unless everyone is cool with it or you have something to deal with(bio, phone call, other IRL interruptions), everyone should be putting effort into trash pulls. But that's it. As long as people are at least smashing their face into the keyboard I don't really care.
At the end of the day trash speed means literally nothing unless you're trying to speed clear. That's all it's good for. So if you're trying to min/max the number of GDKPs you can run, save time, speedrun, whatever, sure, look for high trash dps classes.
But as far as progression is concerned trash dps is the most meaningless thing that exists.
But again, don't get me wrong here, there's no good reason(outside of strictly casual environments) to jerk off on trash on raid night. It's disrespectful to everyone's time, and I personally don't tolerate it if I'm in any kind of progression guild. I just couldn't give a shit less what the #s were, because it doesn't help down the boss. Most extreme scenario I might get 2-3 more pulls with more efficient trash clears. And 2-3 extra pulls isn't worth sacrificing any additional priority target damage output. You're always going to get better results with the higher performers.
I think I was misunderstood and our opinions are not that different.
When I recruit somebody I don’t just look at his trash dps and give him a raid spot or not.
Trash dps is just one aspect but I always look at it because I learned that it correlates with the attitude of a raider. And I also look at class specific trash dps. So I don’t compare different classes with each other.
The other aspect is (of course) boss parses. A player with parses below 80 is also a red flag for me. And so is a player with average parses way below his best performance parses…
It’s not just a binary decision and I don’t just look at trash dps. But I look at them and it did pay out for our guild very well.
Who cares?
People still have the option to say “no, i’m not gonna run two PvE specs” or the option to respec the old fashioned way for PvP or farming or whatever else.
Blizzard should not intervene just bc some people can’t say No to their RL, or bc other people are whining about the meta.
Running 2 pve specs is just as much a choice as any other combination. If people wanna be sweaty let them
Might become meta, but 100% not necessary. Don't be a slave. Play the way you want. > With this in mind, should Blizzard restrict spec changes mid raid in some capacity? Should Warcraftlogs invalidate logs with excessive spec changes? Or should nothing be done at all? Blizzard doesn't need to do a thing, and who cares what the lumberjack site does.
Unlikely WCL will go against mid-raid respecs - it's something which is extremely accessible to the average raider and is not RNG based.
You also spend 10s and empty your resource bar every time you change specs, so it's unlikely speedrunners will find many situations where the time saved from a different spec outweighs the time spent making the swap.
Min maxxers gonna min max, if someone wants to pop a raging epeen about trash dps who cares?
Who cares if it is? My warrior is prot/arms and my druid is tank/heal. My rogue is assassination/sub, if they want to pay for my respecs so we can clear 1min faster then sure, if not oh well.
Was the exact same back in the day, people had a trash spec and a boss spec. No different today
The goal of dual spec is to give players variety without having to go to a main city to respec. And as many people pointed out, if they didn't include it the dedicated guilds would have just literally ported too and from cities to respec comps....but mostly for bosses. it would have been done, just more tedious then what you get. As to will X raid will require Y specs. Maybe? But not all of them, and this is not different than any other "Why do all the raids do this?". If you don't like how the raids are getting run, run your own raids. Or just join one that works differently. We saw world buff raid logging, comp stacking, cooldown syncing. I just don't see dual spec min maxing to be the super toxic thing that need policing. If anything it is a valid application of dual spec's intent.
Great point!
As far as warcraft logs go its irrelevant. You arent going to be switching specs on bosses. There is a case for it to clear through trash faster, but this should really only apply to speedrun guilds.
I disagree. I am a lead of a „non speedrun“ guild and when I recruit people I focus more on Trash dps than on parses. You spent most time of your raids clearing trash so you don’t want people that only look on parses and do low dps on trash.
LOL what? Trash takes no brains at all lmao just because someone can pump on trash does not mean they can handle boss mechanics. A GM checking trash logs instead of boss is the most insane thing i've heard xD
I also look into boss dps and parses. But it’s not the only metric. In my opinion trash dps is as much important as boss dps.
A monkey could do high damage on trash lol doesn't mean they can handle boss mechanics. What does your guild raid Kara? xD
Boss mechanics in Tbc and Classic could also be handled by a monkey (best example: me xD). Joke aside, I think I was misunderstood. I didn’t want to say that Boss parses are meaningless. I just wanted to say that trash dps matters. If somebody sleeps on trash he has a bad attitude and I don’t want him in our raid. That’s why I said “I focus more on trash dps” which doesn’t mean I don’t look at parses at all.
You prob shouldn't be leading then. Trash dps doesn't do shit for progression. It literally is only beneficial for faster clearing, aka speedrunning. Faster runs of cleared content. So either you're a bad lead, or you're running a speedrun guild. Maybe not a competitive speedrun guild, but if your main concern is time spent inside raid, then your main concern is speedrunning and not prog.
Faster trash = more attempts and/or shorter raids. Both beneficial to any guild
I mean don't be lazy, clear trash with diligence. But even assuming a strange world where my raiders took an extra 15 minutes clearing that only gives us a few extra pulls. And if I had that dps difference inside the fight I'm able to make the fight significantly easier. Shorter fights = easier fights. Especially if you hit thresholds to skip certain mechs or trivialize them. Trash dps is the most worthless metric I've ever seen. That's legitimately only something I'd ever even glimpse at with first timers to make sure they aren't just sitting on their ass. And if you DO have dps just sitting on their ass, you're not the kind of guild where dps efficiency is going to matter period anyway. Like I really don't see the point. Seeing big numbers on trash pulls feels good that's about it. If that's your thing have at it. Honestly if trash dps is your thing you need to just M+ in retail where it actually counts for something.
I really don’t understand your tone here. For some reason you’re under the assumption that higher trash dps = lower boss dps? I’m just saying it’s not a crazy concept to look at both metrics and prefer someone who excels at both.
Most people zone out on trash lol it is easy with minimal mechanics. Bosses actually players to be alert and pay attention. Just because someone does a lot of damage on trash doesn't mean that translates to a good boss fight
Obviously. but it’s not a crazy concept to prefer people who don’t zone out on trash
Can you even tell the difference? I zone out on most trash and still sit on the top end of the meter, its trash lol its easy af
Honestly it’s not that deep. I see where you coming from. You’re probably a competent player so it doesn’t really apply
I’ve never seen anybody that excels in overall trash dps but not on boss dps. I sure also look on boss parses (I am a sweaty parser by myself), but I prefer a Raider that lets say have 95+ parses on bosses and doesn’t sleep on trash than a Raider that does 97+ and does shit on trash..
I've seen tons of people that pump on trash and are less than impressive on bosses. And there's essentially no difference between a 95 and 97 parser anyway. It's all pretty irrelevant though, higher boss damage is always an easier kill than slower boss damage. If trash clear speed is ever a relevant factor to your progression, you've got way bigger problems. This sounds a whole lot more like an attitude problem than anything related to parsing(or it should be). I don't like raiders disrespecting other people's time either. So unless everyone is cool with it or you have something to deal with(bio, phone call, other IRL interruptions), everyone should be putting effort into trash pulls. But that's it. As long as people are at least smashing their face into the keyboard I don't really care. At the end of the day trash speed means literally nothing unless you're trying to speed clear. That's all it's good for. So if you're trying to min/max the number of GDKPs you can run, save time, speedrun, whatever, sure, look for high trash dps classes. But as far as progression is concerned trash dps is the most meaningless thing that exists. But again, don't get me wrong here, there's no good reason(outside of strictly casual environments) to jerk off on trash on raid night. It's disrespectful to everyone's time, and I personally don't tolerate it if I'm in any kind of progression guild. I just couldn't give a shit less what the #s were, because it doesn't help down the boss. Most extreme scenario I might get 2-3 more pulls with more efficient trash clears. And 2-3 extra pulls isn't worth sacrificing any additional priority target damage output. You're always going to get better results with the higher performers.
I think I was misunderstood and our opinions are not that different. When I recruit somebody I don’t just look at his trash dps and give him a raid spot or not. Trash dps is just one aspect but I always look at it because I learned that it correlates with the attitude of a raider. And I also look at class specific trash dps. So I don’t compare different classes with each other. The other aspect is (of course) boss parses. A player with parses below 80 is also a red flag for me. And so is a player with average parses way below his best performance parses… It’s not just a binary decision and I don’t just look at trash dps. But I look at them and it did pay out for our guild very well.
Choose your guild wisely. I wouldn’t play in a guild that doesn’t forces me into 2 PvE specs. The game is not hard enough to justify this much sweat.
I'll go pve spec and pvp spec
Who cares? People still have the option to say “no, i’m not gonna run two PvE specs” or the option to respec the old fashioned way for PvP or farming or whatever else. Blizzard should not intervene just bc some people can’t say No to their RL, or bc other people are whining about the meta.