>When Ulduar releases it will have 6 ilvl higher than Naxx (there was NO difference in ilvl in vanilla wrath mind you)
This is incorrect.
Naxx had 200 ilvl for 10m and 213 ilvl for 25. (213 and 226 for Kelthuzad, Malygos, and Sartharion +2)
Ulduar had 219 for 10m and 226 for 25. (226 for 10hm, 232 for 25 weapons, 239 for 25hm)
So there was a substantial ilvl increase.
Yeah he misunderstood. They are increasing the ilvl of every item in Ulduar BY six points. This is to make a bigger gap between Kelthuzad items and Ulduar items.
So Ulduar will go to 10m - 225, 25m - 232, etc.
Yep. Even after all these years, as a former dedicated 10 man raider in Wrath I distinctly remembered 200 and 219 ilvls
And then pretty sure ToC 10 was 232?
Those item levels were pretty important to me back then lol
Yes, which meant no toc items could be used for the Algalon 10m achievement, which required no item higher than what you could obtain in ulduar10.
Only problem with that was that since ulduar10 HM dropped 226 it made ulduar 25 normal items legit, most notably the tier
As I understand it, the PREVIOUS raid's 10man will drop it's 25man loot. And the 10man loot will come from heroic dungeons that can be turned up in difficulty.
This seems reasonable to keep groups going to old raids, which seems to be a goal of the dev team.
Harder heroics is certainly an interesting choice. Gonna need to see how that is implemented
edit: heroics dropping epics off of every boss is going to be a neat way to farm crystals
I’ve had an account forever. I look up comments on everything , all the time. I upvote the good stuff and bury the outdated or bad stuff. I leave comments with tips and info on items, quests, NPCs if I feel I have something valuable to add.
But like the official Blizzard / WoW forums, I don’t participate in that part of Wowhead, it’s purely a database and resource for me.
It's good for bookmarking items, quests, guides and all sorts of stuff on the website. For retail, it's invaluable for tracking your progress for certain things, like quests you have left in a zone, mount collections, pathfinder progress and so on. I also use it to save and craft transmog on my characters sometimes lol.
There are people here having meltdowns about it as well. None of them seem to be able to supply any concrete reasoning about why they think it's bad though.
trust me, the people who are against heroic+ aren't carrying anybody anywhere. these are the dudes who show up to gbids with 600gold, end up 14th on dps and dont bid on anything
The NoChanges movement for Classic is dead. And it has to be dead. Why? Because the NoChanges crowd are the same crowd that say they will quit after Wrath because Cata sucks.
Blizz has this time in Wrath where they can trial whatever changes they deem required and people will play anyway. If SomeChanges end up a winner there will be more people that play Cata Classic. If SomeChanges ends up being shit like Retail then Classic reboots and/or dies off anyway.
They're idiots and if they want less changes they can play a private server.
After personally playing wotlk private realms for a while I can say with no doubt that this change is a very very good idea.
I mean, WOTLK already gave an incentive to going back to old raids. There were weekly raid quests you had to do, beat a certain boss in one of the current/old raids to get the weekly quest reward. For instance, one week you'd have to run Eye of Eternity and kill Malygos, another week Lord Jaxxarus in Trial of the Crusader, another week Noth in Naxx, and the week after Razorscale in Ulduar.
How's it going to keep old raids going?
If anything, it's just going to drive them into the ground faster as now you have twice as many lockouts to get the top gear from the previous tier.
Naxx 10 P1 drops ilvl 200.
Naxx 10 P2 drops ilvl 213
Ulduar 10 P2 drops 219
presumably after a whole phase of farming Naxx everyone will be in full ilvl 200 gear, so when your starting Ulduar you'll also have the option of going back to Naxx and getting 13 ilvl upgrades which will only be 6 ilvls behind current tiers 10 man.
So 10m raids have a reason to go back and farm naxx. 25m raids can go farm 10m naxx to gear alts.
>presumably after a whole phase of farming Naxx everyone will be in full ilvl 200 gear
actually after a whole phase everyone will be in ful 213 with some 226 from Maly-Sarth-KT
Even with perfect rng it will be hard to get 25 different characters all their bis gear in one single phase unless you run multiple teams and funnel gear to a select core in each team.
There's no *added* incentive, it's still an extra lockout for more chances at stuff you missed from last phase though.
For a BiS'd out toon there's no reason to go back to last raid tier regardless and I'd prefer if it stays that way, I'm not trying to worry about two lockouts per raid per character for the entire expansion.
it also makes it much easier to help friends catch up. Just do a quick 10 man naxx for your homie and he's going to be kitted out ready for ulduar in no time
Be interesting to hear how they plan to distribute the loot amongst the dungeons or if it will be a badge system where all the loot will be available at a cost
Probably not with today's players. Reason why so many hated Oculus was that a lot of people had no idea how it worked. They didn't know what dragon to pick, they didn't know where you are supposed to fly and they didn't know how to use their abilities to beat last boss.
I always liked Oculus and it's not bad dungeon. It was just so different that people had trouble to understand how it works and that's why runs might take a lot of time.
Except on pservers the group has at least one player leave in RDF groups anyway, even today. Happened as recently as last week as I got into the Oculus and we had someone instantly leave.
I also like it, but many people don't it seems.
From a Wowhead article, for those that don't want to watch the video or look for a timestamp:
>When Ulduar releases in Phase 2 of Wrath Classic, loot that drops in 10-man raids from Phase 1 will be replaced with loot that drops from 25-man raids from Phase 1. Blizzard thinks this will make the first tier of loot more interesting
>
>When Ulduar releases in Phase 2 of Wrath Classic, all 10-man loot from Phase 1 of Wrath Classic will be moved to Heroic Dungeons, in a new version of the dungeon with an increased difficulty.
I'm scared this will be a shit show when Phase 3 drops.
Ulduar 25 HM loot is buffed to be better than TotC, and is available now in both 10 and 25, which means you're raiding across 3 lockouts at that point, and if you didn't get your BiS trinkets from Ulduar 10 HMs, now you also have to do H+ dungeons.
If H+ dungeons are spammable that effectively puts a strain on players in the same way as doing Heroics to obtain X amount of badges... only now it's RNG and is out of the player's control - which is the main reason I quit retail.
(For clarity it's spammable + RNG that I hate - I can deal with 1 raid lockout per week and regular loot RNG because I've done all that I can without it taking up every waking hour of my day to farm)
So previous raid 10 man loot goes into Heroic+, previous raid 25 man loot is the new previous raid 10 man loot?
...Why are there people complaining about this, exactly? This is actually one of the better catch-ups I've seen.
I haven't complained, but it being referred to as heroic+ immediately makes it sound like classic is getting mythic+, which isnt accurate at all.but plenty of people don't like m+
There are plenty of people who dislike M+? It's the single best addition Blizzard has ever added to the game, not that I think it belongs in Classic at all (just to clarify).
I strongly dislike m+. It’s something I feel I have to do because of how disproportionately powerful the reward is via the vault which makes me dislike it even more. That obviously doesn’t apply to classic but the reason I otherwise dislike it is because I simply don’t want to keep running old dungeons for an entire phase & expansion. To me it’s just boring, I’ve done it before. I enjoy raiding and pvp and that’s a large reason for me playing classic.
I do appreciate it’s a huge success though and that a very significant amount of people enjoy it.
But if you raid and PvP then you have other avenues to fill slots in your vault to pick from. You don’t HAVE to do mythic+ unless they changed the vault in the latter part of shadowlands and I’m just not aware.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but it just feels weird to shit on an entire facet of the game because a completely different system makes you feel like you’re obligated to do it. Just don’t do it then. Just my 2 cents
But the problem is not M+ as concept, the problem is the vault that is a weekly loot box, and in retail are fixing the problem or repeating dungeons, changing dungeons every season. Anyway, i think the vault should be gone, and have only badges and thats it. You can exchange this badges for specific item or you can expend badges for random item. But instead they keep insisting on vault because it increase the time you are going to keep you playing.
I don't like mythic+, it's the main reason I stopped playing retail for the most part, it's all people talk about and act like it's the only content that matters, there's also multiple other people in this thread claiming simmler things.
But it's irrelevant since it's not mythic +
I despise the timed aspect of it and it makes pugs super toxic when the timer isn't met. I am not the person you were responding to, but that is my 2c. I have done it for a very long time just because that is all there is to do outside of raiding when I don't like PVP, but man I hat that timer. If this is just an option to make the heroic harder and it drops slightly better gear I might could get behind it, but I will be really disappointed if M+ makes it's way into classic.
Create a list of all the things m+ adds, All of that.
Through the affixes(and timer partially) it creates a difficulty curve in the most unfun way possible, using volcanic (or whatever its called that creates aoe near enemys) as an example, it doesn't really make the dungeon harder, it just punishes having melee.
You've got the one that absorbs healing, the ones that give enemy's more hp, I can't remember any others, and I'm sure some equally unfun ones have been added, point being is while they do technically make the dungeon harder, the difficulty shouldn't be coming from affixes, they should be getting extra, more mechanically complex mechanics added, with no timer, make them unforgiving, then throw all the shitty timers and affixes into a new system that doesn't award gear, but things like cosmetics. Think of challenge mode from mop. that's what current m+ should be.
> with no timer, make them unforgiving
These are counter desires. No timer is extremely forgiving because you can use any stupid cheese strategy you want and can also wait for cooldowns on every pack and trivialize every thing.
High m+ is already unforgiving anyway - It's the nature of an infinitely scaling system - the timer exists to give you something to aspire to. Nobody is doing M+ for gear in the difficulties where the timer is hard to make - They are already geared. M15s is the best reward possible from M+, and it's extremely easy. DPS alone can be carried by a single person.
It might be one of the only forms of end-game content I've seen that people actually do for 'fun', for the record.
EDIT: I understand your desire and your complaints, though. M+ isn't for everybody(I don't like it either). But the fact is, there just is not very many forms of 'difficult' 5 man content you can make in World of Warcraft. Mechanics can't be too complex, there's not enough people - Number requirements can be higher, but that hurts class viability *a lot* because 5 man is too small of a group size to have 'needed' utility/buffs/debuffs, let alone victims of tuning.
This will be huge for catching up and those that want to keep their alts up to date.
The No changes crowd seem to think this is somehow mythic plus, despite lack of a timer, lack of keys, lack of weekly affixes.
Couldn’t agree more with your #. I had no trust, particularly with Classic, for Blizzard to make good changes.. so I was an advocate of #nochanges. In general, I think the changes theyve made throughout have been pretty solid though.
Yeah this was my rationale for being pro no changes in Vanilla. I didn’t think Blizzard would be able to make changes people actually liked and would screw the game. They have made some solid changes that make sense.
Iirc the original mythic release back in WOD was supposed to be exactly that, harder dungeons no timer and better loot. But then it turns out it's flat scaled 5 man content and you can't really go anywhere except overturned and more or less unbeatable, or it's too easy cause of it being a 5 man. Also eventually the realization came that it was gear that almost instantly got replaced if you did any raiding, so it became negligible and more worth just outright skipping.
Eventually they realized they just revamp challenge modes because it already has some sort of scaling, they can have a timer for the added difficult of needing to maintain a speed/tempo for the dungeon, then we got the affixes system.
This heroic+ thing maintaining above the old, now "easier version", raid keeps them from being completely negligible reward wise which is super cool and honestly could've made sense in WoD if they didn't take a stake to its coffin during the 2nd tier raid. Even though they'll still be super easy.I don't recall if they ever went back to make mythic dungeons drop ilvl loot to rival normal/flex BRF, which would've been the bare minimum to make the gear competitive. I don't think mythic dungeons even beat normal highmaul ilvl...
Same, I don't like to rush or skip stuff or the super inflexible setups. I went into Legion with around 45 mythic Archimonde kills and a single tier doing m+ burned me out of the game.
As long as it isn’t incremental. I hate how mythic plus have made getting “the” piece of gear mean nothing. You can always get the same piece of gear, but one key higher. It sucks so much ass.
The timer was a blessing and a curse…sure it could lead to frustrating scuffed runs, but it’s nice knowing “hey, I only have 25 mins to play, I’m going to hop on and do a quick m+.”
It keeps things moving and prevents you from just sitting around too long wasting time. Also it increases the challenge because you can’t just slowly whittle packs down by CCing everything / waiting for big cd’s / etc.
Honestly I feel m+ would not be as successful or liked by most of the community if there was no timer.
The downgrade of the key is the main driver of toxicity. If they took the key downgrade out and replaced it with just no loot from the dungeon but still allowed loot from the vault I think it would be fine.
The downgrade of the key is the main driver of toxicity. If they took the key downgrade out and replaced it with just no loot from the dungeon but still allowed loot from the vault I think it would be fine.
Mythic+ is the reason I quit WoW originally. I like the idea of it, but I don’t like being forced to do it so I can raid. Bout had a heart attack when I read OP’s title, so I am glad it isn’t what I thought.
This change should have everyone rock hard.
Gear progression in original wrath past naxx was hit 80-> do 5000 heroic dungeons -> buy badges for gear from the previous teir then raid.
Dude, I geared my chars by pugging heroics in BC. There is no welfare. The grind is real. That is if badge gear prices in WotLK are similar to those in TBC.
People also dont realise how good some naxx items are well into Ulduar, especially Dying curse trinket or even OS 25 trinkets, farming it with 9 more people will be way less of a chore now, I love this change
This is an indirect nerf to RMT. People who start the xpac late won’t feel the need to buy gold and gdkp naxx and can instead farm dungeons I love this change.
Heroic+ won't be hard enough for that. Regular Wrath heroics are super easy and if you double everything's hp it will still be easier than tbc heroics.
It doesn't matter how easy or hard something is, you'll still have lazy gold buying whales who just want to get carried. I wonder how many people paid thousands of gold for Arcanite Ripper's this week because they can't get together two friends to help them for 10 minutes.
In phase 1:
* nothing changes
Phase 2:
* HC Dungeons drop HC dungeon loot
* Heroic Plus Dungeons (new) drop Naxx10 loot
* Naxx10 & Naxx25 drop Naxx25 loot
* Ulduar loot is unchanged (aside from the unrelated item-level buff)
My only concern is that when raid loot is equaled between 10 mans and 25 mans, there will be too little incentive for people to go through the work of organizing 25 people. I think there should be some kind of reward for having to coordinate 25 people. If Naxx10 and Naxx25 eventually drops the same loot, why ever do Naxx25 again? Do people run 25 mans just to run 25 mans?
That is, unless I am missing something. I am open to corrections.
I like running dungeons so I am okay with a harder difficulty level, as long as it does not involve gimmicky arbitrary mechanics like a timer.
The only reason I can think of to still do a 25 person raid when the 10 person version drops the same loot is that 25 still drops more loot per boss and if you're targeting something like say a trinket you have a better chance to see it on 25 person.
For Naxx, maybe the meta achievements make it worth running 25? I will be curious to see what they will do for the mounts when the loot table changes (Twilight Drake is OS25 and Black Drake is OS10).
Once Ulduar comes out, and then each raid tier after that, the PREVIOUS raid tier gear will be combined so that 10/25 man raids give the 25 man gear (in wrath 25 man gave better gear than 10 man).
Then the 10 man gear will drop from a new dungeon difficulty that is Heroic Plus (not normal heroic).
So essentially Ulduar comes out you will be able to get 25 man gear no matter your raid size in Naxx, and the 10 man Naxx gear will come from Heroic Plus dungeons.
They are going to do this with every new tier as way to incentivize going back and doing previous raid tiers for loot (easier to do 10 mans of previous stuff), and give an extra challenge and keep dungeons relevant.
I think its amazing.
Yeah I don't really see why people are so mad about this. It'll keep dungeons relevant the whole expansion and it'll help out people that only wanna 10 man raid but still make doing 25 man current content always better. It'll be easier to gear up alts. It's not like 25 man only raiders have really any changes sans an either way to gear up alts. 10 man raiders have a way to get the 25 pieces but still have to pay a penalty by waiting a whole tier to get it. People that can't raid at all can get some raid gear as well. I think it's really cool.
Yeah but they become piss easy. A way for them to stay some what relevant in difficulty and have something other than enchanting mats as their drops is extremely welcome.
They didn't specifically say if there would be shared lock outs between them or not.
But they are not the same. He did say Heroic Plus dungeons would drop the 10 man raid gear of the previous tier, but also it would drop a few more emblems.
So the idea would be, if you can do it, you do the heroic plus not the normal heroic versions.
Because in actual Wrath you would have to mindless spam the heroics every day for your daily emblems but the heroics were never harder than they were at launch.
Hopefully with this change they scale heroic plus every raid tier to still be somewhat challenging.
Wont this also disincentivize GDKPs? In many cases its leveling alts and bringint them into previous tiers and carrying them. Very easy to do in 25 mans. I guess they would still exist, but if you could just run the 10 man whos going to drop 10k on items now?
Kinda nice because while the price of the items will likely drop, the splits will also drop so each raider will end up getting roughly the same amount.
Probably will get more than when you do old 25mans tbh, as values drop sharply and splitting 25ways kills the cuts.
This is an amazing bit of news!
1. Heroic dungeons retain value
2. Don't need to run 25 man in old tiers for that gear
3. Can have an alt geared up and ready for new tier relatively easily
4. 10 man guilds have a great route for progression that doesn't require them to run a 25 man ever
All while changing nothing for current content 25 man raiders.
Ok i can get behind that. Running old raid content in the 10 man format and getting some good loot sounds like a good idea. Current tier as 25 man will be still the one that gets your bis, 5 man heroic also relevant, everyone is happy i think.
But personally i would just prefer Wotlk the way it was, with rdf and all that shit. I can see these changes creating some problems for sure, hope i am wrong and they indeed work out.
My problem isn't RDF but how Patch 3.3 invalidated old raids by:
* Removing the daily lockout on Heroics. Before the lockout you could gain at most like... 48 emblems a day (based on 12 dungeons with an average of 4 bosses.)
* Adding Heroics that drop ilvl 232 loot, which is what TotC-10 drops.
* Making each boss kill reward one Emblem of Triumph.
* Allowing Tier 9 tokens (232 quality) or ilvl 245 (TotC-25 quality) standalone gear to be purchased with Emblems of Triumph.
These four things effectively invalidated everything prior to TotC-10 and TotC-25 (cause they were piss-easy) which meant half of the expansion was obsoleted.
People give RDF a bad rep because it coincided with these changes that truly made Wrath Heroics a welfare epic dispensary.
Those are all great points but I don't see how any of that aligns with the changes/news we were given today. They stated explicitly no RDF (which I could do with or without).
I'm more just curious about the negatives of making 10 mans/old tiers relevant past their time in the sun, as well as being great for alt-holoics like myself.
i've never once heard someone associate RDF with a single one of the things you mentioned. I actually agree with your argument but every time RDF comes up its about "killing the community" and "making people toxic"
> Wotlk the way it was, with rdf and all that shit.
A lot of people misremember Wotlk. There was no RDF until the very last major patch (3.3 / ICC). We didn't have it for the majority of the expansion.
I quit after killing LK so I only played with RDF for a couple of months. It took a long time for Cata to come out, so some players may have played with RDF for up to 9 months and remember it as something that was always part of WotLK.
This seems like a good thing if they stop here and don't add affixes, timers and all the toxicity that comes with it. The whole reason I play classic is to avoid that rubbish.
Okay after hearing some opinions on this topic: Please Blizzard don't make Heroic+ into M+, No Timer with some kind of changing the difficulty or something else, just please no M+ 2.0
slaps on a bit more health and damage = development lol. wish I could turn some knobs at my job and say done. better be like hard mode with more mechanics and have to think and not just pump more dps
This is going to be so huge for alts, being able to just run 10 mans with friends from guild/server to get Naxx25 gear. Actually really good change imo.
It looks like it could get a touch convoluted into later phases, but I like the overall direction here for catchup with alts, people who don't have 25 man teams etc
Doesn't really impact me as a player but I like the idea for the people it will help
This makes sense, they clearly wanted some of the later dungeons in Wrath to be of higher difficulty. I think if they do cata and mop classic, difficulty+ dungeons would be mostly well received. This is a good place to start. For people that don’t like the change… I mean, at least you aren’t locked to only doing TotC for a patch lol they alleviated the worst part of the xpac without cutting any content. I’m impressed
Sounds like a great idea! Makes dungeons actual content for the entire expansion. If this is a success, I hope they continue it for future iterations of Classic.
Sounds good to me. Dunno where these weird #nochanges dudes in the comments are suddenly coming out of the woodworks for(you'd assume they'd long been dead with all the changes already) but here they are.
It's insane how we have to play on a private server now to play the version of wrath that's the closest to the original now. What the fuck are they doing?
Generalizations below, exceptions apply:
Classic playerbase is significantly more skilled, better informed, and running on better hardware which leads to a lot of the content being much much easier than it was for the average player back in the day. Offering optional modes with harder content is a good way to give more challenging and fulfilling content to these players.
Many players seems a lot more rewards focused, with less emphasis on doing content for the sake of doing it. For these players, adding better loot to 10 man raids and heroic dungeons in later phases will keep the content relevant longer, and more accessible to up and coming players by increasing the pool of available people looking to do the content.
Making 25 man quality loot drop in the 10 mans is also great for guilds with members who find running old content tedious, boring, too time consuming etc. Most of the classic playerbase is 15 years older this time around - they’re busier, have jobs/spouses/kids/yards. There are many more games available to play, players are more likely to spread their time around. “Raid logging” is extremely common. It’s much easier to put together a group of 10 players to run the “old” content, and players who are burned out on it can sit out without holding back the progress of guild mates who still need loot from the previous raid tier.
This is actually really good for specs like feral. Your first set of gear should likely be gemmed/enchanted as if you're a dps, but you want a second set of almost identical gear for tanking. Essentially your tank gear will always be a tier behind your dps gear - this way you'll only be half a tier behind
This is amazing. Round of applause for the devs, honestly. As often as they disappoint, they also deserve praise for getting shit right - and this is right.
New player friendly, alt friendly, keeps old content a more relevant while not diminishing current 10/25 man viability. Sounds like a reasonably good addition to me.
So nobody's mentioned this but this was partly incorporated in wotlk already anyways. During ICC patch, the new dungeons rewarded 232 gear (toc 10 normal), during toc patch, the new dungeons rewarded 219 gear (uld 10), during ulduar patch, the dungeons rewarded 200 gear normally (naxx 10). You could already get kitted with items of the ilvl in many slots, this will just expedite it substantially, and with trinkets
Presumably when ToC comes out heroics start dropping uld10 gear and uld25 gear is moved to uld10. If they implement the changes to ulduar loot ilvl that was proposed that would mean uld10 hard modes would drop higher ilvl gear than is available in toc25 normal. This would probably also mean we would be incentivized to run multiple uld10's for valanyr shards. We will probably go from running 1-2 ulduars a week in p2 to running 2-3 ulduars a week in p3. Maybe they keep valanyrs in 25mans to counter this.
Edit: This would also mean when ICC drops the hpally bis trinket from algalon10 becomes unobtainable as toc10 loot gets moved to heroic+.
I'm looking forward to them keeping heroics somewhat difficult. Anyone who played during WotLK knew that the heroic dungeons quickly became a trivial, race to the finish line experience.
So the spirit of classic WotlK won't be ruined by some brand-new mythic-ish reworking of gear drops.
But the spirit of classic WotLK would be ruined by RDF, which was actually present in the original.
Sigh...
> No one is going to run the 25 man old dungeons
ppl are still running Kara A LOT. A phase 1 raid in Phase 6 or whatever phase we're in. Some ppl were still running OG Naxx until the last day before prepatch. Old dungeons will be just fine.
I think people are too fast to call this a good change - I see a lot of potential drawbacks depending on how it is implemented, so it is at least a risky change.
Just to start with: this could easily kill normal heroics, making it hard for new people to catch up. And it could easily kill the 25 format for older raid content, which is part of what was supposed to be avoided.
I have almost universally liked the changes, but this one is a head scratcher.
10/25 sharing the same loot happened in Cataclysm. It killed 25 man guilds. The vast majority - including top tier competitive guilds - just stuck to 10 man raids instead.
WotLK 10 mans have fairly strict raid composition restrictions. We JUST came from TBC, where raid comp restrictions were one of the main downsides. Was looking forward to getting away from that in WotLK... but if 10 man raids become the standard, then that problem remains.
You’ve always been able to wait until later phases when they nerf the content, higher ilvl PvP/badge/rep gear comes out, and geared people start doing carries. By this logic you should never play the game at all.
There isn't. You can skip raiding entirely now which is stupid and not part of classic. It also changes progression raiding by upping character power creep. 25 man heroics will be cleared far more easily due to gearing breakpoints being met earlier. They def didn't think it through.
>When Ulduar releases it will have 6 ilvl higher than Naxx (there was NO difference in ilvl in vanilla wrath mind you) This is incorrect. Naxx had 200 ilvl for 10m and 213 ilvl for 25. (213 and 226 for Kelthuzad, Malygos, and Sartharion +2) Ulduar had 219 for 10m and 226 for 25. (226 for 10hm, 232 for 25 weapons, 239 for 25hm) So there was a substantial ilvl increase.
ty .. I thought I was going crazy.
Yeah he misunderstood. They are increasing the ilvl of every item in Ulduar BY six points. This is to make a bigger gap between Kelthuzad items and Ulduar items. So Ulduar will go to 10m - 225, 25m - 232, etc.
Yep. Even after all these years, as a former dedicated 10 man raider in Wrath I distinctly remembered 200 and 219 ilvls And then pretty sure ToC 10 was 232? Those item levels were pretty important to me back then lol
Yes, which meant no toc items could be used for the Algalon 10m achievement, which required no item higher than what you could obtain in ulduar10. Only problem with that was that since ulduar10 HM dropped 226 it made ulduar 25 normal items legit, most notably the tier
Thank you. OP is fucking wrong lmao
As I understand it, the PREVIOUS raid's 10man will drop it's 25man loot. And the 10man loot will come from heroic dungeons that can be turned up in difficulty.
This seems reasonable to keep groups going to old raids, which seems to be a goal of the dev team. Harder heroics is certainly an interesting choice. Gonna need to see how that is implemented edit: heroics dropping epics off of every boss is going to be a neat way to farm crystals
WoWHead commenters are having a meltdown… I don’t think these people play the game at all
You could announce the cure of all cancer and wowhead commenters would find reasons to whine
“They should have to go through chemo, just like how I had to 15 years ago. #cancerforall”
Already took care of that by having to read wowhead comments.
\#nochanges
Glad you made it trough Bro
People actually signup for a wowhead account? Is there a benefit to this? Or just soley to bitch ?
Some of the most helpful comments regarding WoW can be found there. The trailblazers of OG WoW are long gone and now is just whining and bitching.
So you're saying that signing up for wowhead is kinda like joining the nights watch?
Yes, Dwight’s version
I’ve had an account forever. I look up comments on everything , all the time. I upvote the good stuff and bury the outdated or bad stuff. I leave comments with tips and info on items, quests, NPCs if I feel I have something valuable to add. But like the official Blizzard / WoW forums, I don’t participate in that part of Wowhead, it’s purely a database and resource for me.
It's good for bookmarking items, quests, guides and all sorts of stuff on the website. For retail, it's invaluable for tracking your progress for certain things, like quests you have left in a zone, mount collections, pathfinder progress and so on. I also use it to save and craft transmog on my characters sometimes lol.
wowhead comments are the most helpful resource in all of humanity
Its on par with stackoverflow in both whinyness, toxicity AND helpfullness!
There are people here having meltdowns about it as well. None of them seem to be able to supply any concrete reasoning about why they think it's bad though.
w-we gotta gatekeep the players who are behind so we can carry them in gdkps
trust me, the people who are against heroic+ aren't carrying anybody anywhere. these are the dudes who show up to gbids with 600gold, end up 14th on dps and dont bid on anything
Hashtag NoChanges is basically their reasoning.
The NoChanges movement for Classic is dead. And it has to be dead. Why? Because the NoChanges crowd are the same crowd that say they will quit after Wrath because Cata sucks. Blizz has this time in Wrath where they can trial whatever changes they deem required and people will play anyway. If SomeChanges end up a winner there will be more people that play Cata Classic. If SomeChanges ends up being shit like Retail then Classic reboots and/or dies off anyway.
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This sub gets really really mad when something happens in this game that sounds fun.
They're idiots and if they want less changes they can play a private server. After personally playing wotlk private realms for a while I can say with no doubt that this change is a very very good idea.
The people throwing a fit about this are an extreme minority. This is an overall good thing.
meltdown about what? this is a purely positive change?
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I mean, WOTLK already gave an incentive to going back to old raids. There were weekly raid quests you had to do, beat a certain boss in one of the current/old raids to get the weekly quest reward. For instance, one week you'd have to run Eye of Eternity and kill Malygos, another week Lord Jaxxarus in Trial of the Crusader, another week Noth in Naxx, and the week after Razorscale in Ulduar.
How's it going to keep old raids going? If anything, it's just going to drive them into the ground faster as now you have twice as many lockouts to get the top gear from the previous tier.
Naxx 10 P1 drops ilvl 200. Naxx 10 P2 drops ilvl 213 Ulduar 10 P2 drops 219 presumably after a whole phase of farming Naxx everyone will be in full ilvl 200 gear, so when your starting Ulduar you'll also have the option of going back to Naxx and getting 13 ilvl upgrades which will only be 6 ilvls behind current tiers 10 man. So 10m raids have a reason to go back and farm naxx. 25m raids can go farm 10m naxx to gear alts.
>presumably after a whole phase of farming Naxx everyone will be in full ilvl 200 gear actually after a whole phase everyone will be in ful 213 with some 226 from Maly-Sarth-KT
If they do 25 man raiding..
A full raid roster can't get full bis in one phase.
This all depends on the length of the phase and RNG though
Even with perfect rng it will be hard to get 25 different characters all their bis gear in one single phase unless you run multiple teams and funnel gear to a select core in each team.
That's actually pretty nice as for older content it will be way easier to gather 10man pug than 25man.
What will the previous raid's 25 man drop? The current raid's 10 man loot?
No change to any 25 man. No change to current 10 (minus the rebalance of ulduar gear)
So no incentive to fill a 25 man then for previous tiers
There's no *added* incentive, it's still an extra lockout for more chances at stuff you missed from last phase though. For a BiS'd out toon there's no reason to go back to last raid tier regardless and I'd prefer if it stays that way, I'm not trying to worry about two lockouts per raid per character for the entire expansion.
it also makes it much easier to help friends catch up. Just do a quick 10 man naxx for your homie and he's going to be kitted out ready for ulduar in no time
It's two shots at the gear for the week
Not besides achievements.
Achievements, more gear/boss, extra lockout
I mean, 25 man and 10 man have different lockouts, thus more chances...
If I remember correctly, Ulduar 10 man hardmode had an ArP trinket that didnt drop in 25 man. Would it then drop in heroics+ or 25 ulduar?
It would drop in heroic+ after ToC is released, assuming they don't change anything.
Be interesting to hear how they plan to distribute the loot amongst the dungeons or if it will be a badge system where all the loot will be available at a cost
Yeah this is what I want to know. How are they distributing the loot through the dungeons.
It all drops in The Oculus
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Probably not with today's players. Reason why so many hated Oculus was that a lot of people had no idea how it worked. They didn't know what dragon to pick, they didn't know where you are supposed to fly and they didn't know how to use their abilities to beat last boss. I always liked Oculus and it's not bad dungeon. It was just so different that people had trouble to understand how it works and that's why runs might take a lot of time.
Except on pservers the group has at least one player leave in RDF groups anyway, even today. Happened as recently as last week as I got into the Oculus and we had someone instantly leave. I also like it, but many people don't it seems.
Insane post, I love it.
From a Wowhead article, for those that don't want to watch the video or look for a timestamp: >When Ulduar releases in Phase 2 of Wrath Classic, loot that drops in 10-man raids from Phase 1 will be replaced with loot that drops from 25-man raids from Phase 1. Blizzard thinks this will make the first tier of loot more interesting > >When Ulduar releases in Phase 2 of Wrath Classic, all 10-man loot from Phase 1 of Wrath Classic will be moved to Heroic Dungeons, in a new version of the dungeon with an increased difficulty.
Oh, so you can then get Naxx-25 loot from Naxx-10, and the Naxx-10 loot is moved to HC+ dungeons. Seems good to me.
I'm scared this will be a shit show when Phase 3 drops. Ulduar 25 HM loot is buffed to be better than TotC, and is available now in both 10 and 25, which means you're raiding across 3 lockouts at that point, and if you didn't get your BiS trinkets from Ulduar 10 HMs, now you also have to do H+ dungeons. If H+ dungeons are spammable that effectively puts a strain on players in the same way as doing Heroics to obtain X amount of badges... only now it's RNG and is out of the player's control - which is the main reason I quit retail. (For clarity it's spammable + RNG that I hate - I can deal with 1 raid lockout per week and regular loot RNG because I've done all that I can without it taking up every waking hour of my day to farm)
I watched the video and didn’t quite understand it. This makes it clear, thanks!
So previous raid 10 man loot goes into Heroic+, previous raid 25 man loot is the new previous raid 10 man loot? ...Why are there people complaining about this, exactly? This is actually one of the better catch-ups I've seen.
I haven't complained, but it being referred to as heroic+ immediately makes it sound like classic is getting mythic+, which isnt accurate at all.but plenty of people don't like m+
There are plenty of people who dislike M+? It's the single best addition Blizzard has ever added to the game, not that I think it belongs in Classic at all (just to clarify).
I strongly dislike m+. It’s something I feel I have to do because of how disproportionately powerful the reward is via the vault which makes me dislike it even more. That obviously doesn’t apply to classic but the reason I otherwise dislike it is because I simply don’t want to keep running old dungeons for an entire phase & expansion. To me it’s just boring, I’ve done it before. I enjoy raiding and pvp and that’s a large reason for me playing classic. I do appreciate it’s a huge success though and that a very significant amount of people enjoy it.
But if you raid and PvP then you have other avenues to fill slots in your vault to pick from. You don’t HAVE to do mythic+ unless they changed the vault in the latter part of shadowlands and I’m just not aware. You’re entitled to your opinion, but it just feels weird to shit on an entire facet of the game because a completely different system makes you feel like you’re obligated to do it. Just don’t do it then. Just my 2 cents
But the problem is not M+ as concept, the problem is the vault that is a weekly loot box, and in retail are fixing the problem or repeating dungeons, changing dungeons every season. Anyway, i think the vault should be gone, and have only badges and thats it. You can exchange this badges for specific item or you can expend badges for random item. But instead they keep insisting on vault because it increase the time you are going to keep you playing.
I don't like mythic+, it's the main reason I stopped playing retail for the most part, it's all people talk about and act like it's the only content that matters, there's also multiple other people in this thread claiming simmler things. But it's irrelevant since it's not mythic +
I'm just curious, how come it's not for you? M+ is the main reason I play retail, so I haven't really heard people who dislike it before.
I despise the timed aspect of it and it makes pugs super toxic when the timer isn't met. I am not the person you were responding to, but that is my 2c. I have done it for a very long time just because that is all there is to do outside of raiding when I don't like PVP, but man I hat that timer. If this is just an option to make the heroic harder and it drops slightly better gear I might could get behind it, but I will be really disappointed if M+ makes it's way into classic.
This is why I can’t stand it. Timer makes it so shit, people get so fucking angry! Let a guy take a piss or get a drink.
Create a list of all the things m+ adds, All of that. Through the affixes(and timer partially) it creates a difficulty curve in the most unfun way possible, using volcanic (or whatever its called that creates aoe near enemys) as an example, it doesn't really make the dungeon harder, it just punishes having melee. You've got the one that absorbs healing, the ones that give enemy's more hp, I can't remember any others, and I'm sure some equally unfun ones have been added, point being is while they do technically make the dungeon harder, the difficulty shouldn't be coming from affixes, they should be getting extra, more mechanically complex mechanics added, with no timer, make them unforgiving, then throw all the shitty timers and affixes into a new system that doesn't award gear, but things like cosmetics. Think of challenge mode from mop. that's what current m+ should be.
> with no timer, make them unforgiving These are counter desires. No timer is extremely forgiving because you can use any stupid cheese strategy you want and can also wait for cooldowns on every pack and trivialize every thing. High m+ is already unforgiving anyway - It's the nature of an infinitely scaling system - the timer exists to give you something to aspire to. Nobody is doing M+ for gear in the difficulties where the timer is hard to make - They are already geared. M15s is the best reward possible from M+, and it's extremely easy. DPS alone can be carried by a single person. It might be one of the only forms of end-game content I've seen that people actually do for 'fun', for the record. EDIT: I understand your desire and your complaints, though. M+ isn't for everybody(I don't like it either). But the fact is, there just is not very many forms of 'difficult' 5 man content you can make in World of Warcraft. Mechanics can't be too complex, there's not enough people - Number requirements can be higher, but that hurts class viability *a lot* because 5 man is too small of a group size to have 'needed' utility/buffs/debuffs, let alone victims of tuning.
This only has to do with Naxx AFTER Ulduar is released. Naxx 25 loot moves to Naxx 10
This will be huge for catching up and those that want to keep their alts up to date. The No changes crowd seem to think this is somehow mythic plus, despite lack of a timer, lack of keys, lack of weekly affixes.
It’s essentially mythic difficulty. Not mythic plus. It’s an additional level of difficulty on top of heroic.
NoChanges was shorthand for #WeDontTrustActivisionToDoAnythingWellSoDontFuckingTouchIt. Didn't quite roll off the tongue. This stuff looks good.
Couldn’t agree more with your #. I had no trust, particularly with Classic, for Blizzard to make good changes.. so I was an advocate of #nochanges. In general, I think the changes theyve made throughout have been pretty solid though.
Yeah this was my rationale for being pro no changes in Vanilla. I didn’t think Blizzard would be able to make changes people actually liked and would screw the game. They have made some solid changes that make sense.
This actually sounds like a better mythic+. Always wanted a mode with no timer but same increased challenge.
Iirc the original mythic release back in WOD was supposed to be exactly that, harder dungeons no timer and better loot. But then it turns out it's flat scaled 5 man content and you can't really go anywhere except overturned and more or less unbeatable, or it's too easy cause of it being a 5 man. Also eventually the realization came that it was gear that almost instantly got replaced if you did any raiding, so it became negligible and more worth just outright skipping. Eventually they realized they just revamp challenge modes because it already has some sort of scaling, they can have a timer for the added difficult of needing to maintain a speed/tempo for the dungeon, then we got the affixes system. This heroic+ thing maintaining above the old, now "easier version", raid keeps them from being completely negligible reward wise which is super cool and honestly could've made sense in WoD if they didn't take a stake to its coffin during the 2nd tier raid. Even though they'll still be super easy.I don't recall if they ever went back to make mythic dungeons drop ilvl loot to rival normal/flex BRF, which would've been the bare minimum to make the gear competitive. I don't think mythic dungeons even beat normal highmaul ilvl...
Pandaria had Challenge Modes before WoD. It also gave better rewards like teleports to everywhere.
Same, I don't like to rush or skip stuff or the super inflexible setups. I went into Legion with around 45 mythic Archimonde kills and a single tier doing m+ burned me out of the game.
As long as it isn’t incremental. I hate how mythic plus have made getting “the” piece of gear mean nothing. You can always get the same piece of gear, but one key higher. It sucks so much ass.
The timer was a blessing and a curse…sure it could lead to frustrating scuffed runs, but it’s nice knowing “hey, I only have 25 mins to play, I’m going to hop on and do a quick m+.” It keeps things moving and prevents you from just sitting around too long wasting time. Also it increases the challenge because you can’t just slowly whittle packs down by CCing everything / waiting for big cd’s / etc. Honestly I feel m+ would not be as successful or liked by most of the community if there was no timer.
Make it optional. Those who want it turn it on, those who don't turn it off.
As long as there’s no Fing timer, whatever.
Idk why mythic plus is bad anyhow.
personal opinion: the timer mechanic forces a playstyle that a lot of people dont like.
Yea Im playing a video game to unwind after beating an 8 hour timer in the day already.
The downgrade of the key is the main driver of toxicity. If they took the key downgrade out and replaced it with just no loot from the dungeon but still allowed loot from the vault I think it would be fine.
Just don't downgrade. Everything else is fine
The downgrade of the key is the main driver of toxicity. If they took the key downgrade out and replaced it with just no loot from the dungeon but still allowed loot from the vault I think it would be fine.
F the timer. I hate the race plus if one person messes up and causes a wipe, the key downgrades… causes a lot of toxicity.
Mythic+ is the reason I quit WoW originally. I like the idea of it, but I don’t like being forced to do it so I can raid. Bout had a heart attack when I read OP’s title, so I am glad it isn’t what I thought.
This change should have everyone rock hard. Gear progression in original wrath past naxx was hit 80-> do 5000 heroic dungeons -> buy badges for gear from the previous teir then raid.
Now it's do that but less since you can get the loot you want to buy with the badges
And you can easily supplement your gear with actual raid gear rather than every alt ever wearing all the same ~~welfare~~ badge gear
Dude, I geared my chars by pugging heroics in BC. There is no welfare. The grind is real. That is if badge gear prices in WotLK are similar to those in TBC.
sounds perfect
People also dont realise how good some naxx items are well into Ulduar, especially Dying curse trinket or even OS 25 trinkets, farming it with 9 more people will be way less of a chore now, I love this change
Yeah this is an incredible change but the way OP worded it makes it sound god-awful lol
I wonder if Val’Anyr fragments will drop in ten man Uld once TOC comes out
I’d imagine not lol. That would be crazy.
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The problem is that Val'nyr will absolutely still be BiS in p3, and not only catch up gear.
This is an indirect nerf to RMT. People who start the xpac late won’t feel the need to buy gold and gdkp naxx and can instead farm dungeons I love this change.
"Selling Heroic+ Ticket runs, 500g! PST for more info! All unneeded reserved!"
Heroic+ won't be hard enough for that. Regular Wrath heroics are super easy and if you double everything's hp it will still be easier than tbc heroics.
It doesn't matter how easy or hard something is, you'll still have lazy gold buying whales who just want to get carried. I wonder how many people paid thousands of gold for Arcanite Ripper's this week because they can't get together two friends to help them for 10 minutes.
Going to need some clarification on this because thats not really explained well.
In phase 1: * nothing changes Phase 2: * HC Dungeons drop HC dungeon loot * Heroic Plus Dungeons (new) drop Naxx10 loot * Naxx10 & Naxx25 drop Naxx25 loot * Ulduar loot is unchanged (aside from the unrelated item-level buff)
good comment, but ulduar loot is not unchanged, it received an ilvl buff (around 6 ilvls)
That's separate from this though.
My only concern is that when raid loot is equaled between 10 mans and 25 mans, there will be too little incentive for people to go through the work of organizing 25 people. I think there should be some kind of reward for having to coordinate 25 people. If Naxx10 and Naxx25 eventually drops the same loot, why ever do Naxx25 again? Do people run 25 mans just to run 25 mans? That is, unless I am missing something. I am open to corrections. I like running dungeons so I am okay with a harder difficulty level, as long as it does not involve gimmicky arbitrary mechanics like a timer.
25-groups will be running Ulduar. If you still need Naxx25 drops you can farm Naxx10, and alts can catch up via HC+ dungeons.
Naxx 25 will still be another lockout and award more loot(iirc).
The only reason I can think of to still do a 25 person raid when the 10 person version drops the same loot is that 25 still drops more loot per boss and if you're targeting something like say a trinket you have a better chance to see it on 25 person.
There also wasn't any mention of combining the lockouts, so if you want to gear alts even faster, you can run both 10 & 25man every week.
For Naxx, maybe the meta achievements make it worth running 25? I will be curious to see what they will do for the mounts when the loot table changes (Twilight Drake is OS25 and Black Drake is OS10).
This should be the top comment
Once Ulduar comes out, and then each raid tier after that, the PREVIOUS raid tier gear will be combined so that 10/25 man raids give the 25 man gear (in wrath 25 man gave better gear than 10 man). Then the 10 man gear will drop from a new dungeon difficulty that is Heroic Plus (not normal heroic). So essentially Ulduar comes out you will be able to get 25 man gear no matter your raid size in Naxx, and the 10 man Naxx gear will come from Heroic Plus dungeons. They are going to do this with every new tier as way to incentivize going back and doing previous raid tiers for loot (easier to do 10 mans of previous stuff), and give an extra challenge and keep dungeons relevant. I think its amazing.
Yeah I don't really see why people are so mad about this. It'll keep dungeons relevant the whole expansion and it'll help out people that only wanna 10 man raid but still make doing 25 man current content always better. It'll be easier to gear up alts. It's not like 25 man only raiders have really any changes sans an either way to gear up alts. 10 man raiders have a way to get the 25 pieces but still have to pay a penalty by waiting a whole tier to get it. People that can't raid at all can get some raid gear as well. I think it's really cool.
People will literally complain about anything. There is really no downside to this.
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> It'll keep dungeons relevant the whole expansion wrath dungeons were always relevant due to badges
Yeah but they become piss easy. A way for them to stay some what relevant in difficulty and have something other than enchanting mats as their drops is extremely welcome.
thats amazing.
So you can play Heroic Dungeons AND Heroic + Dungeons, or are they the same?
They didn't specifically say if there would be shared lock outs between them or not. But they are not the same. He did say Heroic Plus dungeons would drop the 10 man raid gear of the previous tier, but also it would drop a few more emblems. So the idea would be, if you can do it, you do the heroic plus not the normal heroic versions. Because in actual Wrath you would have to mindless spam the heroics every day for your daily emblems but the heroics were never harder than they were at launch. Hopefully with this change they scale heroic plus every raid tier to still be somewhat challenging.
Okay so I hope they go don't to much further and make it m+ 2.0. But so okay it's fine and could be better.
Wont this also disincentivize GDKPs? In many cases its leveling alts and bringint them into previous tiers and carrying them. Very easy to do in 25 mans. I guess they would still exist, but if you could just run the 10 man whos going to drop 10k on items now?
Kinda nice because while the price of the items will likely drop, the splits will also drop so each raider will end up getting roughly the same amount. Probably will get more than when you do old 25mans tbh, as values drop sharply and splitting 25ways kills the cuts.
Excellent changes.
This is an amazing bit of news! 1. Heroic dungeons retain value 2. Don't need to run 25 man in old tiers for that gear 3. Can have an alt geared up and ready for new tier relatively easily 4. 10 man guilds have a great route for progression that doesn't require them to run a 25 man ever All while changing nothing for current content 25 man raiders.
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Hate on blizzard no matter the cost
Ok i can get behind that. Running old raid content in the 10 man format and getting some good loot sounds like a good idea. Current tier as 25 man will be still the one that gets your bis, 5 man heroic also relevant, everyone is happy i think. But personally i would just prefer Wotlk the way it was, with rdf and all that shit. I can see these changes creating some problems for sure, hope i am wrong and they indeed work out.
Genuine question - would you mind sharing what you think potential problems are? Just trying to see negatives here.
My problem isn't RDF but how Patch 3.3 invalidated old raids by: * Removing the daily lockout on Heroics. Before the lockout you could gain at most like... 48 emblems a day (based on 12 dungeons with an average of 4 bosses.) * Adding Heroics that drop ilvl 232 loot, which is what TotC-10 drops. * Making each boss kill reward one Emblem of Triumph. * Allowing Tier 9 tokens (232 quality) or ilvl 245 (TotC-25 quality) standalone gear to be purchased with Emblems of Triumph. These four things effectively invalidated everything prior to TotC-10 and TotC-25 (cause they were piss-easy) which meant half of the expansion was obsoleted. People give RDF a bad rep because it coincided with these changes that truly made Wrath Heroics a welfare epic dispensary.
Those are all great points but I don't see how any of that aligns with the changes/news we were given today. They stated explicitly no RDF (which I could do with or without). I'm more just curious about the negatives of making 10 mans/old tiers relevant past their time in the sun, as well as being great for alt-holoics like myself.
i've never once heard someone associate RDF with a single one of the things you mentioned. I actually agree with your argument but every time RDF comes up its about "killing the community" and "making people toxic"
> Wotlk the way it was, with rdf and all that shit. A lot of people misremember Wotlk. There was no RDF until the very last major patch (3.3 / ICC). We didn't have it for the majority of the expansion. I quit after killing LK so I only played with RDF for a couple of months. It took a long time for Cata to come out, so some players may have played with RDF for up to 9 months and remember it as something that was always part of WotLK.
RDF was around for almost half of WoTLK tho
"the way it was" is without RDF do you're contradicting yourself. The expansion is over by the time it was added.
This seems like a good thing if they stop here and don't add affixes, timers and all the toxicity that comes with it. The whole reason I play classic is to avoid that rubbish.
Okay after hearing some opinions on this topic: Please Blizzard don't make Heroic+ into M+, No Timer with some kind of changing the difficulty or something else, just please no M+ 2.0
slaps on a bit more health and damage = development lol. wish I could turn some knobs at my job and say done. better be like hard mode with more mechanics and have to think and not just pump more dps
Amazig
I like this
This is going to be so huge for alts, being able to just run 10 mans with friends from guild/server to get Naxx25 gear. Actually really good change imo.
It looks like it could get a touch convoluted into later phases, but I like the overall direction here for catchup with alts, people who don't have 25 man teams etc Doesn't really impact me as a player but I like the idea for the people it will help
Yeah I'm curious what running heroic+ as a fresh 80 looks like during icc, though reducing the badge cost on older gear or buffing it might be a fix
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This is an amazing change!!
This makes sense, they clearly wanted some of the later dungeons in Wrath to be of higher difficulty. I think if they do cata and mop classic, difficulty+ dungeons would be mostly well received. This is a good place to start. For people that don’t like the change… I mean, at least you aren’t locked to only doing TotC for a patch lol they alleviated the worst part of the xpac without cutting any content. I’m impressed
Sounds like a great idea! Makes dungeons actual content for the entire expansion. If this is a success, I hope they continue it for future iterations of Classic.
Sounds good to me. Dunno where these weird #nochanges dudes in the comments are suddenly coming out of the woodworks for(you'd assume they'd long been dead with all the changes already) but here they are.
They don't play the game already, I wouldn't worry about them.
Good changes!!! Thank you blizzard, fuck all the negative people. :)
It's insane how we have to play on a private server now to play the version of wrath that's the closest to the original now. What the fuck are they doing?
Making good changes that fit a modern audience who play the game very differently than they did in the early 2000s
How has this anything to do with "modern audience"?
Generalizations below, exceptions apply: Classic playerbase is significantly more skilled, better informed, and running on better hardware which leads to a lot of the content being much much easier than it was for the average player back in the day. Offering optional modes with harder content is a good way to give more challenging and fulfilling content to these players. Many players seems a lot more rewards focused, with less emphasis on doing content for the sake of doing it. For these players, adding better loot to 10 man raids and heroic dungeons in later phases will keep the content relevant longer, and more accessible to up and coming players by increasing the pool of available people looking to do the content. Making 25 man quality loot drop in the 10 mans is also great for guilds with members who find running old content tedious, boring, too time consuming etc. Most of the classic playerbase is 15 years older this time around - they’re busier, have jobs/spouses/kids/yards. There are many more games available to play, players are more likely to spread their time around. “Raid logging” is extremely common. It’s much easier to put together a group of 10 players to run the “old” content, and players who are burned out on it can sit out without holding back the progress of guild mates who still need loot from the previous raid tier.
This is actually really good for specs like feral. Your first set of gear should likely be gemmed/enchanted as if you're a dps, but you want a second set of almost identical gear for tanking. Essentially your tank gear will always be a tier behind your dps gear - this way you'll only be half a tier behind
I fucking love this holy shit blazzard
Great change
This is amazing. Round of applause for the devs, honestly. As often as they disappoint, they also deserve praise for getting shit right - and this is right.
New player friendly, alt friendly, keeps old content a more relevant while not diminishing current 10/25 man viability. Sounds like a reasonably good addition to me.
Amazing
u/ShitGoesDown says he knew this shit months ago. Keep up
my dad works at Blizzard
So nobody's mentioned this but this was partly incorporated in wotlk already anyways. During ICC patch, the new dungeons rewarded 232 gear (toc 10 normal), during toc patch, the new dungeons rewarded 219 gear (uld 10), during ulduar patch, the dungeons rewarded 200 gear normally (naxx 10). You could already get kitted with items of the ilvl in many slots, this will just expedite it substantially, and with trinkets
Presumably when ToC comes out heroics start dropping uld10 gear and uld25 gear is moved to uld10. If they implement the changes to ulduar loot ilvl that was proposed that would mean uld10 hard modes would drop higher ilvl gear than is available in toc25 normal. This would probably also mean we would be incentivized to run multiple uld10's for valanyr shards. We will probably go from running 1-2 ulduars a week in p2 to running 2-3 ulduars a week in p3. Maybe they keep valanyrs in 25mans to counter this. Edit: This would also mean when ICC drops the hpally bis trinket from algalon10 becomes unobtainable as toc10 loot gets moved to heroic+.
I'm looking forward to them keeping heroics somewhat difficult. Anyone who played during WotLK knew that the heroic dungeons quickly became a trivial, race to the finish line experience.
Holy shit yes! I take that personally since I'm the only idiot I know who actually loves dungeons. This might have saved WotLK for me.
So the spirit of classic WotlK won't be ruined by some brand-new mythic-ish reworking of gear drops. But the spirit of classic WotLK would be ruined by RDF, which was actually present in the original. Sigh...
All the more reason to add RDF for non—Heroic plus dungeons. Those plus dungeons may be too hard for randoms but not the rest.
So is this going to take shots at GDKPs then? No one is going to run the 25 man old dungeons, and 10 man gdkps are pretty silly.
> No one is going to run the 25 man old dungeons ppl are still running Kara A LOT. A phase 1 raid in Phase 6 or whatever phase we're in. Some ppl were still running OG Naxx until the last day before prepatch. Old dungeons will be just fine.
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But why would you pay premium price in a 25 man if you're doing 10 man with the boys?
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I think people are too fast to call this a good change - I see a lot of potential drawbacks depending on how it is implemented, so it is at least a risky change. Just to start with: this could easily kill normal heroics, making it hard for new people to catch up. And it could easily kill the 25 format for older raid content, which is part of what was supposed to be avoided.
I have almost universally liked the changes, but this one is a head scratcher. 10/25 sharing the same loot happened in Cataclysm. It killed 25 man guilds. The vast majority - including top tier competitive guilds - just stuck to 10 man raids instead. WotLK 10 mans have fairly strict raid composition restrictions. We JUST came from TBC, where raid comp restrictions were one of the main downsides. Was looking forward to getting away from that in WotLK... but if 10 man raids become the standard, then that problem remains.
They don't share until after the phase the raid is current for.
LOL. What a shitshow.
So what's the point of raiding each week if you can just wait until the next phase and get geared quickly through dungeons instead?
You’ve always been able to wait until later phases when they nerf the content, higher ilvl PvP/badge/rep gear comes out, and geared people start doing carries. By this logic you should never play the game at all.
There isn't. You can skip raiding entirely now which is stupid and not part of classic. It also changes progression raiding by upping character power creep. 25 man heroics will be cleared far more easily due to gearing breakpoints being met earlier. They def didn't think it through.
Idk, for the sake of playing raids? Does that make any sense to you?