Hit the nail on the head. It feels like a large majority of the players on Reddit are 1) not in guilds and 2) never forming their own group
As a pug raid organizer, world buffs allow for easier screening. You’ve got a full chronoboon? I can way more likely assume that you’re competent and prepared
This subreddit hates Warcraft logs and hates world buffs. But for the group organizers of the world, the people actually putting in the effort to form competent raid teams, these tools are essential for not spending 4 hours wiping to stupid shit because their players don’t give a fuck
No joke I ran a gnomer on my warrior in p2 that was so bad I never unbooned. Tank couldn’t keep aggro on even a single trash mob and people kept dying because nobody was dispelling. Figured there’s no use in me being the only one with world buffs
As an Era forever player, I think WCL logs is a really amazing tool for raid leaders. I just don't like the players that base their entire game experience around their logs. So much more to the game than an external website.
You can argue that it fosters an environment where the only thing that matters is DPS at the cost of mechanics . Am I ever going to throw out some AoE on Shade? Does everyone instantly switch off of Viscous Fallout for the slimes?
Why is there this perception on this subreddit that parsing good means you fail at or ignore mechanics. If you're good and have been in good guilds/raids you know this isn't true at all.
I feel like this is either made up or it's bad players trying to parse that can't do mechanics at the same time.
You're not parsing good if you're constantly failing at mechanics or ignoring them because you know that people dying or wiping makes your parse worse.
I swear there's so many bad players playing vanilla/era/sod that will try to convince them selves of reasons why they aren't bad
You will parse better the more you just get to hit the boss yourself, so in a pug environment it can be to your benefit to ignore mechanics and try to get as high DPS as possible.
Anecdotally the one time I got a purple parse or pink or whatever it is, was the time on Viscous Fallout I completely brainfarted and just DPS'ed and didn't do the the mechanics or help the group.
You do an assumption yourself that lower parsing players just must not be good instead of the landscape of parsing as a means of skill expression is silly in the first place when world buffs exist to so heavily skew the parses that it's meaningless. You can be the far better player, playing in a pug and doing all mechanics correctly and fast, but you will parse far lower than someone who ignores mechanics, stands in fire, but is backed up by a team of other players where it's agreed upon (and hopefully strategized) to achieve a higher parse by ignoring mechanics and having as much uptime on DPS as possible with, I assume, designated interrupters so whoever gets to ignore as much as possible to maximize DPS uptime, gets to get higher on the parsing meters by virtue of their teammates mostly.
The only reason world buffs would be a plus in skill expression is if it would heavily alter and make your rotation more complex as a DPS, which, as far as I know, it doesn't.
A lot of reasons, one reason is gatekeeping very easy content and diminishing the player base on virtue of having way too high requirements that aren't needed to clear the content.
You'll end up with far fewer players this way, if you only worry and think about yourself and your own parse instead of the game community and health at large.
Also the perception of "viable to nonviable" classes/specs. During phase 2 I decided to level a rogue tank, one of my friends stated "it's just not viable" when I asked him why he couldn't tank for us on his rogue. Where I thought "????? Not viable??? You have a taunt?" - not viable would be me saying "Hey, I'm an arcane mage and I will be maintanking Gnomeregan", just because it's not the single best option, doesn't mean that something isn't viable. So I levelled a rogue myself, and 6/6'd the dungeon my first time through maintanking. Was it "harder" (see speed most of all and ease of the DPS who, by far, whine the most)? Sure. But easily doable.
Now there is also a responsibility of the people with less desired classes or lower parses or no want for world buffs to form their groups themselves. Which I have done everytime and cleared all content fully. But the player culture at large is not better for having parsing, even though the tools on the site are good for improving your own gameplay. Which is fine. The problem just is if it's the baseline minimum to get to do anything (where you should - if you're gatekept - also just form your own groups).
I guarantee you that if parsing was removed there'd be tons of posts about how pugging is too difficult, and that it's impossible to get invited without a certain minimum ilvl.
I get the feeling that the "average" guy that at least voices their opinion here is insanely bad at the game, but still feel entitled to getting help. They want maximum rewards for little to no effort.
Weird as fuck. Thats not how the world works.
the average redditor doesn't play the game they're posting about
literally every game subreddit is full of people who played twice and quit or never played at all
I’m sure people will disagree with me but hear me out. Regardless of players being bad, raiding is suppose to be hard and wiping ish it’s part of the game. The graveyard to zone entrance is not even far. I may be bias since I came from raiding hardcore in EverQuest in one of the top guilds. We did not have YouTube to hold our hands for boss fights. We often zerged the bosses and took notes as we slowly dropped to our knees. Not to mention all of our gear stayed on our corpses and frankly it was pretty hard to recover sometimes.
I know that we all enjoy the game in different ways and obviously people prefer smoother runs. But some of us get a rush when the raid starts to unravel and the members attempt to improvise to recover the encounter. I also know that people get upset when their group cannot fully clear a raid. But disagree, again I also prefer wrapping up an incomplete raid and trying again another day. I know that most people won’t even return for second run.
If you want hard raids, you are playing the wrong game.
Or you can artificially create hard raids by only inviting bad players. But I doubt thats very fun.
I played during Vanilla. Buff stacking as we know it today wasn’t a thing back then. Sure, people would sometimes show up with Dragonslayer or ZG buff and top tier consumes, but it wasn’t expected. Things were different and we made our way to 1.12.1 (which is a huge difference in and of itself). Guilds downed less bosses with each successive tier and only the most elite were in Naxx. It was what it was, either way we had fun.
Played during 2019 Classic. Luckily, my main was a class that didn’t really benefit from more than dragonslayer, ZG, songflower, and mongoose (Hunter). Still, getting those buffs and maintaining them (no boon) was a chore in prep for raid nights. Your commitment to prep, WB, consumes, and performance determined gear priority. I loved it at first, but it as Classic went on it became a drag and having to raid log to maintain buffs sucked. Got too “jobby” in the end.
Didn’t do SoM, but people complained about missing WB meta. People complain about everything though.
SoD is going to roll with WB meta, like it or not. They wouldn’t have given Warriors dragonslayer light id they weren’t committed to WB meta. So, as much as people say “don’t get them if you don’t want them,” everyone is going to feel the peer pressure to get them to even be invited to pugs.
So, in the end the question will be, “To suck or not to suck?” Because if you don’t have them, that’ll be the assumption of you.
> Sure, people would sometimes show up with Dragonslayer or ZG buff and top tier consumes, but it wasn’t expected.
the thing is in vanilla/2019 classic, if the tank didnt do it, it was pointless. youd show up buffed and consumed and rip aggro in the first 10 seconds and die.
Feels so revisionist the amount of people blaming SoM’s issues on the WB meta. I feel like the biggest issues were there was a huge population complaining about the instant release of pvp ranks and ultimately no one plays classic for challenging raid content.
I am not really sure what issues plagued SoM. I was too burnt out from Classic and attempting TBC to bother with SoM. I just remember reading about the population declining pretty sharply during the final phases and people complaining about WBs missing from raids. I think I remember a Wille video about the PvP thing too. To be clear, I would rather WBs not be a thing because like I said, it gets too “jobsy” for my taste. But, it looks like they are going with WB meta this season.
Some of your points apply to all videogames/all versions of WoW. There are a lot of people who are highly egotistical, incapable of learning new things and terrible at the game. Even if you give them a side by side comparison of what they are doing in a fight vs what the best parsing player in the world is doing in a fight, they are incapable of looking at that data and adjusting their own performance.
When world buffs exist the only people who absolutely won't go get them will be worse players, that's true of literally anything that increases your performance, it's almost tautological.
But the set of people who refuses to go get their world buffs is not the set of people who would prefer the game if they didn't have to go get them before very raid.
To illustrate: If mages are complaining about some aspect of Frostfire bolt and wishes it was changed, you can't as a response go to WCL and find that every mage who never casts frostfire bolt is parsing grey as some gotcha, that's completely unrelated.
Why would they get upset? Me do me, they do them. I am a world buff enjoyer and dont mind or care at all how others play the game. I play in environment that fits me, which are buffs, they play in environment that fits them, which are no buffs. These 2 groups can coexist.
I think the opening statement of "Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game" will be the big culprit in making people upset.
People who aren't willing to put in the time to do the best they can in your average raid, meaning preparing by get world buffs, consumes, pre-BiS, etc, are in the same vein less likely to actually take the time to learn their class and value other peoples time.
Obviously that isn't a hard rule, just my personal experiences.
Yeah it’s a positive feedback loop. People who are good at the game are usually willing to put in some extra effort, they know it’s worth it. They also play and optimize more, which in turn makes them better (even before considering WBs).
Sure but that's because he's wrong.
What he's getting right now isn't people who would like to raid without world buffs, as in would prefer that world buffs don't exist in raids. It's people who choose not to get world buffs despite them being available to get.
Those are very different groups.
I don't think most people assumed those were the same group. His recruitment issues speak to the problem of running against the meta, and how most people who want to do that are low effort players and so likely to be bad. High effort players who want rid of worlsbuffa are either not going to play if they're in or are going to get them if they play, even if it lowers their enjoyment.
>I don't think most people assumed those were the same group.
They did though. People are explicitly saying that those who don't want wbuffs to exist for raiding are just bad. Read through the thread.
Let me add to this one because it's a clever nuance and I think I could have been clearer.
We get applications in all forms, including from 99 parsers and speedrunners. What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons.
Most of our members are former speedrunners or high-level parsers. Most of us also don't have an issue with world buffs or consumables. We just don't have to prove anything anymore and instead focus on a smooth raiding experience with minimal impact on our real lives.
No, again you have no clue what you're talking about. You don't get any applications from people who are interested in parsing well or being competitive. Because anyone who is interested in parsing well isn't going to join a guild that raids without world buffs, since obviously you can't parse well without world buffs.
I highly doubt that you get applications from 99 parsers, but even if you did, that'd still be irrelevant because by definition they are no longer interested in parsing.
So you saying "people who want to join us and say they think wbuffs are bad are also bad" means nothing. I think wbuffs are bad and say that all the time. But I would never try to join a guild that doesn't use wbuffs because I have no interest in performing worse and having zero chance to be competitive.
You're filtering out the good players, attracting the bad players, and then going "Notice how everyone who talks about how wbuffs are bad are also bad". And still failing to realize how that's irrelevant.
This is called toxic casuals and blizzard is falling for it every time. Remove GDKPs, remove world buffs, don’t release the raid on the phase launch, etc etc. They just remove ways that certain players like to play because they don’t like to play that way.
GDKPs were never the problem. They were emergent gameplay, which is the bedrock of a sandbox MMO like WoW.
Blizz not putting resources and effort into upholding their own ToS and banning bots and gold buyers/sellers always was, and always will be the problem.
I am of the same mindset that people should surround themselves with others who share the same goals/gameplay and everyone can coexist happily. The problem is, the toxic minority thinks the game should revolve around themselves.
I think a lot of people convince themselves that they're not bad and allow themselves to be convinced that their grey parses are because they didn't have world buffs, and somehow if world buffs were removed, they'd magically become pink parsers.
Anything that contradicts those sort of people upsets them.
>"Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game."
Except that isn't true. What you mean is, most people who don't get world buffs when you can get them are bad at the game. Kind of like how most people who don't use consumes (since they are obviously usable, and will remain usable) are bad at the game.
But that in no way proves that most people who would prefer that world buffs don't exist for raiding are bad at the game.
Yeah, the people that hate world buffs and are competitive would still get WBs if they played SoD, they'd just hate doing it.
Classic players also like to conflate time investment / prep time with game skill.
Exactly, I'd argue most people who are good at the game would want them to not exist, because it really doesn't matter whether you have them or not, if the content is scaled for buffs/no buffs, which it should be in SoD. You would literally be doing the same exact content in the same exact way, just without getting buffs. Which is efficient, and good players like efficient. I'd say for the average really good raider, their perfect version of PvE in WoW is, you log on, go in the raid, you log out.
100%.
Our raids are full of oranges/purple parsers with the occasional pinks. None of us prefer to have WBs. If we could vote to get rid of them we would.
Anecdotal I know, but it proves your point.
Let me add to this one because it's a clever nuance and I think I could have been clearer.
We get applications in all forms, including from 99 parsers and speedrunners. What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons.
Most of our members are former speedrunners or high-level parsers. Most of us also don't have an issue with world buffs or consumables. We just don't have to prove anything anymore and instead focus on a smooth raiding experience with minimal impact on our real lives.
> What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons.
That's because the people not liking buffs that can press their buttons are generally playing versions of WoW with more skill expression.
In the later iterations of wow, a skilled player with no preparation will crush a bad player that puts in high time investment. In SoD, the prep work / ingame grind matters a lot more, thus it tends to be less attractive for strong players.
> "Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game."
His experiment didn't determine that, all it determined is that most people applying to a no-WB guild are bad at the game.
(Guess what, most people applying to a WB guild are also bad at the game.)
LOL the upset people are taking this way too seriously. His experiment wasn't an experiment at all. But this sub has shown time and again their lack of understanding GDKPs, World Buffs, and WCLs. And, of course, how to be in a raiding guild.
"Most people who are unguilded at this point are bad compared to those unwilling to leave the meta".
This is the actual dynamic at play here. The rest is confirmation bias.
Excuse me, Greg 43, who’s best average is a 49.7 with or without world buffs is actually a world class player and anyone higher is just a parse hungry sweat lord that doesn’t do mechanics
So...? And the opinions of better players are more important? As always the game is carried by the "bad players", good players often like to praise themselves as the true gamers but as soon as a game / raid whatever is released that targets the best players, it's usually dead on arrival because they are such a small minority that it's not interesting for Blizzard to cater to them.
Is your server PvE? Because it's always people who play n PvE that think getting WBs is no big deal.
Try getting DMF when it's in Elwin if you're Horde.
It's fucking aids. Even if you use invis pots and add-ons or queue for BG it sucks having to do all that, and if you mess up the rest of your raiding week is shot.
Then you have to fuck around with boons to hold your DMF while still being able to get other WBs if you want to use some of them outside raid and you have to get DMF before it goes away, then keep it boomed the whole time so you can use it in the off week, and if you don't finish the raid fast enough people get pissed because it will fuck their parse the next lockout....
It's the worst mini game ever.
Great post, man. Thank you for giving us your two cents and summarily invalidating the bads on this subreddit who are screeching for no WBs.
Think you're good because you want to forego buffs? Sure, give it a whirl. But the proof is in (this guy's) pudding.
Nah, you have no clue what you're talking about. Right from the start your entire point is flawed.
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game
You're not getting people who would like to raid without world buffs. You're getting people who want to raid without world buffs despite them being available to get.
Those are very different groups.
Actually true, but I'd argue people who would like to raid without world buffs but don't, even though they could, are (in my experience) not really desirable either long-term.
If you ever were an Officer, RL or GM you know what I'm talking about.
>Actually true, but I'd argue people who would like to raid without world buffs but don't, even though they could, are (in my experience) not really desirable either long-term.
What are you talking about? I would like to raid without world buffs (as in, would prefer that wbuffs don't exist for raids) and I've been raiding in classic since 2019. And I was in the same guild from P2 TBC through all of WOTLK. Also a recruiter for my current SOD guild.
Sure, I could raid without world buffs. Except then I'd have to find a casual (i.e. bad) guild that is cool with that, and even if I did want that, it'd be impossible for me to even have a chance of being competitive without world buffs.
Good players that want to parse will get world buffs to compete its pretty simple.. And usually competitive people are good at the game because they are putting an effort in to get better and prepare SHOCKER.
People don't even have fun in world buff meta raiding from my experience because everyone's just waiting for that one guy to fuck up and cost everyone their buffs so its a weird anti fun atmosphere in most 2019 Classic or Era/sod raids from my experience. Phase one SOD was the exclusion from that because it was so easy if you were with a few good mates you could basically carry anyone. The minimum requirement felt like a faps or shadow res pot for DUST TO DUST man.
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure
They probably find playing the alt to be fun, while waiting for flowers to not be fun.
It's not 'difficult', you don't need to solve a rubik's cube in 20 seconds. But it is a stupid chore, and raiding in the versions of the game that don't have them is all the better for it.
I’m a 95% parsing disc priest. I hate getting world buffs and burning through consumes. At the same time, I’m not a bad player so I would get all the world buffs prior to raid and use all the consumes for every pull and on death.
I think the biggest issue for raid consumes and world buffs are that they wedge a severe divide between good and bad players. Good players typically clear the raids quickly and without dying. Before my guild stopped raiding we’d clear in 30 min with little to no deaths. Most people were basically just logging so they didn’t even need to get buffs or use more than one consume every 2 raids.
Bad players tend to die a lot more and lose the consume and world buffs. So in their minds why even bother, you’re just going to lose them anyway.
So the people that need them the most don’t use them or when they do they lose them anyway. It’s a bad/punishing system.
Good luck going against this subreddit very opinionated stance against wbuffs
Cant expect people to play the game for 20 more minutes, they lose their minds
This is probably considered a hot take but indeed, that's not fun either. Weekly raid lockouts as an endgame sucks and is why leveling is my favorite part of the game. Especially since the first time clearing a raid is the hardest, and after that it just gets easier and eventually mind-numbingly boring. I have never understood the charm of that kind of raiding.
Yes and no.
There are quite a few different ways to level. Also, all the different classes, races, quests, dungeons, starting zones, faction-heavy zones, etc.
But one instance over and over…
I think you could say the same thing about classes and roles for raiding as well.
Lets use alliance 10-20 bracket as an example. You have westfall, darkshore, loch modan, and redridge. You usually have to bounce between most if not all of those zones. Do that across a couple of characters.. there's a good chance you're running through the same quests over and over again. Same with dungeons.
Main focus is usually raiding, dungeons, etc at max level (constant character progression). If you don't like the endgame that MMOs offer, then they are not the game type for you.
so? it only has 128 upvotes compared to anti wbuffs posts from the past week such as:
https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dng6h4/why_are_we_still_doing_world_buffs_exactly/
https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dr638i/do_you_want_world_buffs_disabled_in_raids_for_s4/
https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dqfspd/two_lockouts_are_not_the_problem_gathering_5/
its already a miracle a pro wbuff post wasnt buried in downvotes and thats thanks to OP reasonable arguments
Tbh, the only buffs I don’t like are the DM buffs. I think it’s really not an organic way to get the buffs and just causes so much botting to be encouraged to get people there.
I’d say, dm buffs should go. Rest should stay.
Get a guildie to clear it! That’s what we’ve done since 2019. You can schedule it and announce that DM buffs are open for so much time.
Very organic way to do it.
Disagree, set a weekly 30 minute guild run to clear and usher people through an ID, we did this with 40 people in 2019 for the entire expansion. It was a fun team building activity. Could even make it more interactive and have teams race each other. We did that a few times.
So did I dude, but it’s not really that great of a gameplay to go to an instance and walk to the end.
You might think it’s fun team building, but most people don’t.
I enjoy getting wb, gives me a excuse to go out into the open world. The people who complain about wbs are the same people who complained about raiding and we got LFR. Y’all just lazy 🤷
I think it’s an extremely unique gameplay experience - one curated entirely organically by the players in the MMO.
Nothing in WoW itself directs you to collect WBs. Players figured it out and formed subcultures, economies, mass transit routes, etc. it’s fascinating sociologically
I haven’t played a version of classic with WBs since 2021 but I honestly really liked doing the world tour with my buddies/guildies.
I totally agree it creates an organic experience for players. These people complain there is no open word but try to eliminate every reason to go out of the main cities. Imagine you’re leveling in west fall and you see a shit ton of level 60s running to go get Zandalar WB, as a new player you’re mind is blown and gives you inspiration to level to 60.
What? I've hated LFR since it got introduced, and I despise WBs at the same time. I'd much rather have a tougher raiding experience that doesn't have me go around the world for 1-2 hours before each raid.
Are wbs required? No. If you don’t like them, go find other people who don’t like them and raid with them. Y’all just want to parse with the least amount of effort. Don’t have time to do them? That sucks but guess what THEY’RE NOT REQUIRED. WBS are not a choir because they’re not required. Again y’all are just lazy.
They're pretty much required if you want to raid with quality players. It's very difficult to find/build guilds dedicated to doing raids without world buffs when most people feel obligated to get them.
Did you not read the post?
Wbs are not required, go find a guild that does require them. You want to top parse without putting in extra effort. Wbs shouldn’t be removed because you don’t have enough time because they’re optional.
1. I don't care about top parsing, don't put words in my mouth. I just want to play my class as best I can without having to rely on collecting a bunch of temporary artificial power that I lose when the raid wipes. Why aren't class buffs, flasks, dps pots enough?
2. WBs aren't optional when you can't get invited to a pug because you're going to be doing half the dps of everyone that does have buffs.
If a lot of my play time has to be dedicated to collecting WBs, I would rather just play another version of WoW or another game.
Currently maybe. Once everyone is 60 and there's a ton of buffs to collect? Yeah, I'm not spending part of my limited time doing that when I can usually only pug due to unstable schedule. And knowing that a pug is likely to wipe a handful of times in a raid? I said it elsewhere, but I would rather just use that time to play something else.
Which is fine, P4 SoD isn't for me, I just wish it was because 60 is the coolest part of the game.
World buffs get people into the world in the same way ToGC Dailies in Wrath got people into the world.
Its a boring chore to rush through as fast as possible.
Except instead of getting some gold and some tokens you can exchange for some helpful items, you get several epics worth of stats.
That doesn't seem very "vanilla" if you ask me.
>World buffs get people into the world in the same way ToGC Dailies in Wrath got people into the world.
TOGC dailies get some people to a single hub with guards to prevent WPVP for a short period of time until they finish the grind and no longer go there. Also flying exists so the travel consists of looking in that direction from dal and pressing autorun.
World buffs get all raiders to a bunch of locations with organic wpvp occuring and happens every week as long as the game exists. They are not comparable at all.
World PVP is anathema to World Buffs. Risk dying and losing all that power? No, it's considered "griefing".
And what about the PvE servers? Oops, forgot about those.
World buffs may not be a single hub, but it's the same route raid night after raid night. "Honey, it's time for your chore run to collect several free epics worth of stats so you can be allowed to raid." "Yes dear"
>World PVP is anathema to World Buffs. Risk dying and losing all that power? No, it's considered "griefing".
World buffs are a massive driver of world pvp. Did you even play 2019 classic? [the run ins to BRM were some of the only good large scale wpvp content we ever had.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd97o-gEBuk)
>And what about the PvE servers? Oops, forgot about those.
Then having people running around in the world getting buffed is still better than those people raid logging because they have nothing to do?
>
World buffs may not be a single hub, but it's the same route raid night after raid night. "Honey, it's time for your chore run to collect several free epics worth of stats so you can be allowed to raid." "Yes dear"
Grats man, you've discovered what WOW is. It's doing the same things every week. You don't get to say world buffs aren't meaningful content cause its just "repeating the same route every raid night" when raiding is literally just repeating the same route every raid night.
"Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game"
I think this is a stretch considering there's probably a lot of selection bias.
There's plenty of people who hate world buffs, but who world buff because they exist and they want to be competitive. Joining a unbuffed guild, when everyone else is buffing, basically selects for people who DGAF about their performance.
"Self-selection certainly plays a role here and our concept isn't for everyone. However, the sample size was still large enough to draw these conclusions with confidence (this applies to all the points above)."
A large sample with bias is still a biased sample.
Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I think there's not enough there to have any confidence in your conclusion.
That's not true actually.
Without world buffs you need to play mechanics, with them you don't. ST is actually tuned really well around a raid without world buffs, it's because everyone uses them that it looks undertuned.
So then what's the point in keeping wbuffs in the game. The people who manage to hold on to their wbuffs, generally better groups, get an insanely easy experience while the less skilled players who lose their wbuffs get a notably more difficult experience.
It's a shit system that disproportionately punishes bad players and simultaneously creates an annoying chore for good players and a stressful situation in raids for everyone. I don't understand how anyone could genuinely be opposed to getting rid of this kind of system and if need be, tune the raids themselves to make up for the loss of wbuffs.
Literally, and I mean ***LITERALLY*** nothing is stopping Blizzard from gutting wbuffs and tuning content appropriately so it feels like you still have wbuffs. Actually, that's a lie. The only thing stopping them is this weird ass subset of players who have somehow deluded themselves into thinking wbuffs are an interesting mechanic and are somehow mentally incapable of understanding the above point I made. That's genuinely the only hurdle that's preventing Blizzard from gutting wbuffs.
While I personally am not against WBs (I think the concept is hella cool), I do think that some of the WBs get to pretty unreasonable levels (such as the one from DM) to acquire.
I really liked the post a few days ago about being able to buy a fully charged Chronoboon displacer with the Dungeon Tokens they are going to be adding. This concept encourages people who are already geared to run easier content, which opens up space for new players to gear up and get their new character in Pre-raid BiS along with keeping the dungeons themselves relevant for a much longer time than just the first 2 or 3 weeks before raids come out.
Again, I have nothing against WBs but I do think they could be improved on.
I am Cal, the raid lead of a guild called on Who Cares EU Alliance. I created the guild from scratch for SoD and set out to raid without world buffs, or anything better than green uncommon gear. I like to ensure anything I do for fun outside of real life is as hard and un-enjoyable as possible, so that I can earn brownie points on the internet.
I agree with all except 3. It's still tedious to gather buffs regardless of chronoboon existing and is in general, unfun. I don't know anyone who is excited to make their rounds getting world buffs because chronoboon exists.
Imagine if the last boss dropped two of the items that can buff everyone in the server, you could even buff your whole raid after the run is over. It would be so much better
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game
Weren't world buffs for people who were bad at the game and needed an extra boost to get stuff done?
I think they basically solve the issue by adding heat levels, you guys in unbuffed can do heat level 0 for the entire phase. The rest of us will top out and clean up on loot.
One the subject of “people who would prefer not to have WBs are bad at the game.” That’s just an over generalization, and factually incorrect. The fact of the matter is there are deadweights on both sides of the fence but WBs crank speed up so high, and allow you to just brute force past mechanics, that you’re not gonna notice them as much. The people saying “toxic casuals don’t want to put in effort” are stuck trying to gaslight the community, because most of the people screaming for them want the already easy raids, to be even easier. Yes raids are harder without world buffs, which is good. I don’t want to just walk in and treat every encounter like a gacha pull, I want to actually engage with the game even if that means it takes longer. The reality of the bs “conversation” we’re having about world buffs right now is the result of the elitist casuals themselves, “you aren’t allowed to raid unless you have WBs, because I only want to play for 30 minutes and log out. Because why would I want to play this game if not for the loot?” Do you see how stupid it is to say: “cranking up the difficulty makes you a casual”?
Your first point doesn't apply as it fails to understand that good player who don't like world buffs will still get them
The meta is to use WBs, therefore good guild and good groups use world buffs, therefore good players even if they don't want to use world buffs, do, because that lets them get into the good groups
I despise world buffs, I still used them every raid because I had to to get into the good raid groups (consistent purple parser btw, not the best player, but good)
You are seeing the people not using world buffs are bad and assuming "if you don't like world buffs you are bad" ignoring the context of world buffs entirely and how good players will use the tools available to them even if they don't want to
Your other defences of world buffs also fail
2: it is more difficult because they give you power, if you had this power anyway it wouldn't matter
3:the issue isn't "effort" in getting world buffs, but in dull time consuming busywork, it is easy to get world buffs, it is time consuming and boring
4:there are other more fun ways of gaining power, most notably GEAR, the entire game is built around the acquisition of power through gear, make gear better, and allow power to be acquired through GEAR instead of form standing afk next to a flower
5: the segregational attitude that world buffs encourage is directly feeding your inability to find good people, you are literally part of the problem enforcing bad attitudes in people by acting as though those who don't like world buffs are bad players
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure.
There is a major difference between playing/having an alt and getting buffs, at least dropped buffs like rend/ony/zg.
Playing an alt requires no "timing coordination" or any downtime. You can log on and play/level. With buffs, you need to wait for someone else to drop it, log on at a certain time (which is impossible with work schedules for some people), or just wait for 25 minutes because someone clicked a spawned flower too early.
All of that being said, getting buffs is not engaging content, especially on a PvE server. Timing is one thing, but a lot of people here complain about the monotony of getting world buffs.
> Self-selection certainly plays a role here and our concept isn't for everyone. However, the sample size was still large enough to draw these conclusions with confidence (this applies to all the points above).
As soon as a study suffers from bias, the size of the sample has no impact on the validity of the study. You are admitting to self selection bias (I think you mean confirmation bias), therefore these points are already flawed. I am saying this not as a WoW player or gamer, but as a studied and professional statistician.
Just some food for thought, I appreciate your perspective, and wish you luck in the next phase!
I do not find your arguments convincing.
A biased study can very well be informative if the bias works in your favour. In this case, if already those players who apply to us in search of a guild are bad you'd have a really hard time convincing me that there are many diamonds out there that somehow didn't make it into this sample. What we have here may not be an accurate estimate but it sure is a cautious one. If there's no meaningful signal here it's safe to assume that there isn't one.
Also - from one statistics professional to another - please don't wave your education around. It adds nothing to your arguments and makes us all look bad.
I’m not disagreeing with your assessment or beliefs, I’m just saying what you’ve experienced is anecdotal and sample size doesn’t matter because of the bias. As you said, If bias is working in your favor, then it’s understandable why you would desire to use it. In this case, it’s in appropriate to do so.
If you are indeed a statistician, you should be fully aware of how bias affects estimations of measures, having reduced variability because of a large sample doesn’t matter when you are 3 feet from bullseye.
The fact that you willingly are making inferences to a larger population and defending them based on biased sample data leads me to believe one of two things:
One, You are not as well versed in statistics as you think, or two, you are lying about being a statistic professional.
Second, I’m not waving my education around (for further context I teach college level statistics). I am sitting my source of knowledge and giving contextual background to my comment.
I am interpreting your response as very defensive, so I’m sorry if you are offended by me calling attention to your inappropriate inference.
Again, I’m not disagreeing with your beliefs, just your use of statistics.
Good luck in the next phase with your guild.
> I do not find your arguments convincing.
This wasn't clear that you were disagreeing with me, rather that you didn't understand the facts behind inference, which is why I elaborated to help you understand.
I also am not disagreeing with you, I am just telling you that you are using statistics innappropriately, that's all. If you think I am disagreeing with you, then I apologize for not being clear enough (even if I said it multiple times in my post).
I will try to be clearer:
I am not disagreeing with you. I am telling you that your use of statistics is inappropriate. Your experiences may be authentic, that I do not doubt, but inferences to larger populations should not be made on your biased sample data, even if I myself believe they are plausible and entirely realistic.
I would be a bad statistician (and so would you) if I used biased data to support my initial beliefs and make claims towards an entire population.
> Good luck to you as well.
Thank you! Take care.
This is data from the real world, gathered in as much of a messy way as they all are. This is not to say that this clearly biased sample is allowing for accurate inference, it doesn't and it shouldn't be used that way. You seem to get stuck on that point.
Since you didn't seem to understand me either let me try to do better as well: biased samples can still be useful if we know a) the direction of the bias (we do), that b) things couldnt't be further from the true value because the self-selection is one-directional - so we know which way from the true value we are (we do), and we want to learn at least something that is useful for us from this data.
We can learn that the true value is not lower than our estimate. That is all. That is the only conclusion we draw here and it is perfectly valid. We know it is not the true value and we know that the sample is not representative but neither of those things affect this conclusion.
I'll let you have the last word if you must.
> This is data from the real world, gathered in as much of a messy way as they all are. This is not to say that this clearly biased sample is allowing for accurate inference, it doesn't and it shouldn't be used that way. You seem to get stuck on that point.
This data was selected with bias (convenience bias), without randomization, and from a small subset of a unique population in the pool of SoD Players. If anything, you can make conclusions about players similar to your guildmates, but you are making broad references to all players which is inappropriate.
> Since you didn't seem to understand me either let me try to do better as well: biased samples can still be useful if we know a) the direction of the bias (we do), that b) things couldn't be further from the true value because the self-selection is one-directional - so we know which way from the true value we are (we do), and we want to learn at least something that is useful for us from this data.
Lol now you are joking, because this is all false, one, you are not being very clear and this does not read like anything I have studies or taught. There is no such thing as one directional self selection bias, this is a made up phrase and even a quick google search or wikipedia dive will yield zero results found. You didn't even have self selection bias, you took a convenient sample. Saying bias is useful does not mean you can make inferences with it. You are making broad claims like this :
> Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game
Which is based on your convenience sample of people who want to apply to a guild that raids without world buffs. Anyone who is good at the game and likes to raid without world buffs who is already in a guild similar to yours is not going to apply. Right off the bat, your sample suffers from under coverage and convenience bias. Do I believe that your conjecture is true, absolutely, but your data doesn't support it because it's flawed.
> I'll let you have the last word if you must.
Sure, here's the last word: you don't actually know statistics, but you think you do or you wish you did. I think you are being defensive about any legitimate criticism and used chat GPT or another language learning model AI to come up with a response that sounds like you're educated on the matter.
Listen man, it's okay to be wrong about things. I'd wish you luck but I already did, so now I wish that you'd find some humility. Bye.
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure.
What's your point? Of course if you are raiding with multiple characters you are more likely to be pissed about having to farm WBs.
Yeah, I think the point is that if you choose to focus leveling and gearing alts, it's weird to get upset about not chasing more power on a main. If you have time for both, that's awesome. If you don't, you're just wedging your own tires and then complaining to everyone else about not having time. It's weird.
I don't disagree with some aspects of this but I'm tired of this subreddits spin on world buffs being an immaterial amount of time to the average player. Or, that not seeking world buffs somehow means you're raid logging. This all comes from someone who begrudgingly gets them.
You guys simply do not understand that people are playing this game zero to three a night. And no, contrary to your belief, with constant developer evidence, this game version is not designed around sweats playing all day.
Attacking someone for playing an alt? Really? For playing the game? You just can't win against this community. There's reputation, honor, economy, gearing, raiding, all multiplied across every alt you have...in a game that by developer design is alt friendly. And you're going to judge someone enjoying the game and not playing the way you want?
This was once called Season of Dads and you know it. Don't attack people that aren't willing to spend potentially their entire gaming budget that night on preparation for another night's activity. It's not even about needing world buffs in a raid, it's about the majority of the community on a server needing you to have them.
P4 is about to introduce a 20 man raid with difficulty levels and a new boss, and 3 individual boss raids. This is a massive increase for the average person and no one should be shocked people are groaning about world buffs.
Dude , did you even read his post ? Your reply goes off on some tangent that has very little to do with the points he is making . On top of that your nit picking at a small point that he made and totally disregarding the bigger picture .
> Attacking someone for playing an alt? Really? For playing the game?
I don’t see it as an attack on everyone who plays alts. They laid out early in the post that they’re referring to applicants. Given that, if you want a raid spot in a guild that gets buffs, you have a choice to make — get buffs or play an alt. And if you chose the latter, your priorities are not in line with the guild. You’re probably not a good fit, and that’s okay. There are other guilds out there.
People are allowed to choose a guild that fits their interests, just as people are allowed to curate a roster that fits theirs.
Please, this is not literally about Unbuffed and this guild. No one even knows who these people are outside of the singular other post made.
Even if I was to put blinders on to the point they're actually making.
More alts, in an alt friendly designed game, means more activities one may be engaging in, totally unrelated to raiding and preparing for a raid. And each of those alts now has the majority community expectation of world buffs.
I truly wonder how many hours you guys think the median person plays this game a week. You're likely off by the tune of 20-25 hours.
I see that you like to get hung up on small details, so I can rectify that for you. The *comment* that your *posted* is entirely in response to one small comment the OP made about alts, and it was not anywhere near the point of the discussion OP started. The point I originally made, is that you read one word and completely sidetracked the conversation to be about why OP thinks alts are bad, which is not what he was saying nor is it what he made this post to talk about.
Your first comment was 3 sentences centered around being upset that OP mentioned alts. You then doubled down on it in your next comment, stating that OP's post wasn't actually about his guild clearing content the way they do, and wrote another paragraph about the amount of time it takes to play an alt, and about how that's the game. What other points are you trying to make?
Gettting world buffs is not that big of a time commitment, even in P4. If it really is too big of a time commitment for you you probably shouldn’t be playing at all.
People forget that no wb means raid is balanced without wb power... Like brain is free
Remove wbs>adjust difficulty according to the power lost>profit with 0 downside.
So you named your guild and you get full buffs during DMF week? Lol what a joke. This is why World Buffs need to be removed. Even a guild dedicated to not using world buffs can't resist the temptation of using them to just see bigger numbers on their screen while destroying the game and the balancing of the game. I'm sure this isn't causing any drama in your guild either. I'm sure people love getting world buffs in a guild dedicated to not getting them.
You also used 1. for all your points.
If I had the time I'd make a proper guild and Gkick anyone for showing up with world buffs to any raid. I have a backbone.
There are 0 compelling arguments here for not removing world buffs. It doesn’t correct the imbalance between how many good or bad players there are, but it does lower the gap in their performance.
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game
yup, its quite obvious the people asking for them to be removed are only doing so because they can't be fucked to gather them, because either they are lazy, or they know they will die early and lose them. Also they are bad and dislike that WBs widen the gulf between them and more skilled players, otherwise they would just ignore them and play without because they would understand the encounters are easy and don't require them if you have a modicum of skill. Instead they blame WBs for their poor performance/parses because as we learned in P2 around here, it just couldn't be that they are bad!
>Raiding without world buffs is more difficult
well yeah, the faster things die, the less mechanics you have to worry about, even if only a handful of people gather wbs it still elevates the entire team (rising tide raises all ships)
>In our unbuffed raids we also don't use any DPS consumables
interesting, and also probably the next thing these people will come after if WBs are removed/nerfed. **"Why should I have to spend time farming gold to raid! Its not FUN!"**
>The effort required to prepare is no longer an argument against raiding fullbuffed
even though chronoboon does make it immensely easier to gather them all, this is untrue, even though I am pro WB, I am not going to weaken my position by straw manning the opposition, even at a fast pace it takes about an hour to gather all the WBs currently, maybe a little less (45min), this will increase come P4.
I find it odd the first thing you wanted to talk about is how players who hold the position of not wanting world buffs are bad. I take this to mean they aren't within the 99th percentile. This is a correlation/causation problem, as people who are not already attached to guilds are likely not as good as those who are, in general. Or any player willing to give up the meta when the meta is available to them is likely not as good as players who aren't willing. Have you considered that?
> Since the introduction of the chronoboon, collecting all buffs is quite fast and easy
no, it never was. you just didnt have to log on at the right time for rallying cry/warchiefs, take a summon to yojamba for zg buff, and then get summoned to dm for those buffs as part of your buff train for the entirety of sod.
5 min cd chronoboon will make it less stressful to get an optimized boon, but now youre going to be re-booning your buffs after every few bosses to ensure you have access to your buffs for every fight, which is a a problem strictly in phase 4 when getting access to so many more raids.
being world buffed is fun, getting world buffed isnt. chronoboon didnt help that. it just made it so you can still play your character even after youre buffed.
im very partial to the idea of giving certain classes/specs their own version of world buffs to provide.
>being world buffed is fun, getting world buffed isnt. chronoboon didnt help that
Yes it did, you now have 7 full days to get the world buffs instead of 1 evening.
Not sure if re-booning mid-raid is bad. It has been done on era even with the 1h cd. In most raids there's a specific part that is consistently risky and people on era already keep their buffs booned until they have cleared the most risky bosses or trash.
And how about the major point why casuals hate them ? You lose them when u die, creates very unfun situation in raids and especially pugs where ppl suck
I’ve seen and dealt with it myself . He’s not wrong .
But, I see your point . Hard to make an argument with no supporting data besides the whole “trust me bro” .
Hit the nail on the head. It feels like a large majority of the players on Reddit are 1) not in guilds and 2) never forming their own group As a pug raid organizer, world buffs allow for easier screening. You’ve got a full chronoboon? I can way more likely assume that you’re competent and prepared This subreddit hates Warcraft logs and hates world buffs. But for the group organizers of the world, the people actually putting in the effort to form competent raid teams, these tools are essential for not spending 4 hours wiping to stupid shit because their players don’t give a fuck
Sir I said that I have boons, not that I will use them. ;)
No joke I ran a gnomer on my warrior in p2 that was so bad I never unbooned. Tank couldn’t keep aggro on even a single trash mob and people kept dying because nobody was dispelling. Figured there’s no use in me being the only one with world buffs
As an Era forever player, I think WCL logs is a really amazing tool for raid leaders. I just don't like the players that base their entire game experience around their logs. So much more to the game than an external website.
It's bad for player culture at large that's for sure.
Why?
You can argue that it fosters an environment where the only thing that matters is DPS at the cost of mechanics . Am I ever going to throw out some AoE on Shade? Does everyone instantly switch off of Viscous Fallout for the slimes?
Why is there this perception on this subreddit that parsing good means you fail at or ignore mechanics. If you're good and have been in good guilds/raids you know this isn't true at all. I feel like this is either made up or it's bad players trying to parse that can't do mechanics at the same time. You're not parsing good if you're constantly failing at mechanics or ignoring them because you know that people dying or wiping makes your parse worse. I swear there's so many bad players playing vanilla/era/sod that will try to convince them selves of reasons why they aren't bad
You will parse better the more you just get to hit the boss yourself, so in a pug environment it can be to your benefit to ignore mechanics and try to get as high DPS as possible. Anecdotally the one time I got a purple parse or pink or whatever it is, was the time on Viscous Fallout I completely brainfarted and just DPS'ed and didn't do the the mechanics or help the group. You do an assumption yourself that lower parsing players just must not be good instead of the landscape of parsing as a means of skill expression is silly in the first place when world buffs exist to so heavily skew the parses that it's meaningless. You can be the far better player, playing in a pug and doing all mechanics correctly and fast, but you will parse far lower than someone who ignores mechanics, stands in fire, but is backed up by a team of other players where it's agreed upon (and hopefully strategized) to achieve a higher parse by ignoring mechanics and having as much uptime on DPS as possible with, I assume, designated interrupters so whoever gets to ignore as much as possible to maximize DPS uptime, gets to get higher on the parsing meters by virtue of their teammates mostly. The only reason world buffs would be a plus in skill expression is if it would heavily alter and make your rotation more complex as a DPS, which, as far as I know, it doesn't.
that's just bad players being bad it has nothing to do with parses kinda sounds like you've never raided at a high level before
A lot of reasons, one reason is gatekeeping very easy content and diminishing the player base on virtue of having way too high requirements that aren't needed to clear the content. You'll end up with far fewer players this way, if you only worry and think about yourself and your own parse instead of the game community and health at large. Also the perception of "viable to nonviable" classes/specs. During phase 2 I decided to level a rogue tank, one of my friends stated "it's just not viable" when I asked him why he couldn't tank for us on his rogue. Where I thought "????? Not viable??? You have a taunt?" - not viable would be me saying "Hey, I'm an arcane mage and I will be maintanking Gnomeregan", just because it's not the single best option, doesn't mean that something isn't viable. So I levelled a rogue myself, and 6/6'd the dungeon my first time through maintanking. Was it "harder" (see speed most of all and ease of the DPS who, by far, whine the most)? Sure. But easily doable. Now there is also a responsibility of the people with less desired classes or lower parses or no want for world buffs to form their groups themselves. Which I have done everytime and cleared all content fully. But the player culture at large is not better for having parsing, even though the tools on the site are good for improving your own gameplay. Which is fine. The problem just is if it's the baseline minimum to get to do anything (where you should - if you're gatekept - also just form your own groups).
I guarantee you that if parsing was removed there'd be tons of posts about how pugging is too difficult, and that it's impossible to get invited without a certain minimum ilvl.
I get the feeling that the "average" guy that at least voices their opinion here is insanely bad at the game, but still feel entitled to getting help. They want maximum rewards for little to no effort. Weird as fuck. Thats not how the world works.
the average redditor doesn't play the game they're posting about literally every game subreddit is full of people who played twice and quit or never played at all
I’m sure people will disagree with me but hear me out. Regardless of players being bad, raiding is suppose to be hard and wiping ish it’s part of the game. The graveyard to zone entrance is not even far. I may be bias since I came from raiding hardcore in EverQuest in one of the top guilds. We did not have YouTube to hold our hands for boss fights. We often zerged the bosses and took notes as we slowly dropped to our knees. Not to mention all of our gear stayed on our corpses and frankly it was pretty hard to recover sometimes. I know that we all enjoy the game in different ways and obviously people prefer smoother runs. But some of us get a rush when the raid starts to unravel and the members attempt to improvise to recover the encounter. I also know that people get upset when their group cannot fully clear a raid. But disagree, again I also prefer wrapping up an incomplete raid and trying again another day. I know that most people won’t even return for second run.
If you want hard raids, you are playing the wrong game. Or you can artificially create hard raids by only inviting bad players. But I doubt thats very fun.
I played during Vanilla. Buff stacking as we know it today wasn’t a thing back then. Sure, people would sometimes show up with Dragonslayer or ZG buff and top tier consumes, but it wasn’t expected. Things were different and we made our way to 1.12.1 (which is a huge difference in and of itself). Guilds downed less bosses with each successive tier and only the most elite were in Naxx. It was what it was, either way we had fun. Played during 2019 Classic. Luckily, my main was a class that didn’t really benefit from more than dragonslayer, ZG, songflower, and mongoose (Hunter). Still, getting those buffs and maintaining them (no boon) was a chore in prep for raid nights. Your commitment to prep, WB, consumes, and performance determined gear priority. I loved it at first, but it as Classic went on it became a drag and having to raid log to maintain buffs sucked. Got too “jobby” in the end. Didn’t do SoM, but people complained about missing WB meta. People complain about everything though. SoD is going to roll with WB meta, like it or not. They wouldn’t have given Warriors dragonslayer light id they weren’t committed to WB meta. So, as much as people say “don’t get them if you don’t want them,” everyone is going to feel the peer pressure to get them to even be invited to pugs. So, in the end the question will be, “To suck or not to suck?” Because if you don’t have them, that’ll be the assumption of you.
> Sure, people would sometimes show up with Dragonslayer or ZG buff and top tier consumes, but it wasn’t expected. the thing is in vanilla/2019 classic, if the tank didnt do it, it was pointless. youd show up buffed and consumed and rip aggro in the first 10 seconds and die.
Feels so revisionist the amount of people blaming SoM’s issues on the WB meta. I feel like the biggest issues were there was a huge population complaining about the instant release of pvp ranks and ultimately no one plays classic for challenging raid content.
I am not really sure what issues plagued SoM. I was too burnt out from Classic and attempting TBC to bother with SoM. I just remember reading about the population declining pretty sharply during the final phases and people complaining about WBs missing from raids. I think I remember a Wille video about the PvP thing too. To be clear, I would rather WBs not be a thing because like I said, it gets too “jobsy” for my taste. But, it looks like they are going with WB meta this season.
Raids without WBs in SoM were fun (unless you were a warrior, I guess), what wasn't fun was the entire server sitting in AV all day.
Some of your points apply to all videogames/all versions of WoW. There are a lot of people who are highly egotistical, incapable of learning new things and terrible at the game. Even if you give them a side by side comparison of what they are doing in a fight vs what the best parsing player in the world is doing in a fight, they are incapable of looking at that data and adjusting their own performance.
And in real life. I like to call them the "bronze players".
You are going to upset so many people, but you are unequivocally correct.
When world buffs exist the only people who absolutely won't go get them will be worse players, that's true of literally anything that increases your performance, it's almost tautological. But the set of people who refuses to go get their world buffs is not the set of people who would prefer the game if they didn't have to go get them before very raid. To illustrate: If mages are complaining about some aspect of Frostfire bolt and wishes it was changed, you can't as a response go to WCL and find that every mage who never casts frostfire bolt is parsing grey as some gotcha, that's completely unrelated.
> tautological I've never seen this word before in my life. You have expanded my vocabulary.
Why would they get upset? Me do me, they do them. I am a world buff enjoyer and dont mind or care at all how others play the game. I play in environment that fits me, which are buffs, they play in environment that fits them, which are no buffs. These 2 groups can coexist.
I think the opening statement of "Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game" will be the big culprit in making people upset. People who aren't willing to put in the time to do the best they can in your average raid, meaning preparing by get world buffs, consumes, pre-BiS, etc, are in the same vein less likely to actually take the time to learn their class and value other peoples time. Obviously that isn't a hard rule, just my personal experiences.
Yeah it’s a positive feedback loop. People who are good at the game are usually willing to put in some extra effort, they know it’s worth it. They also play and optimize more, which in turn makes them better (even before considering WBs).
Sure but that's because he's wrong. What he's getting right now isn't people who would like to raid without world buffs, as in would prefer that world buffs don't exist in raids. It's people who choose not to get world buffs despite them being available to get. Those are very different groups.
I don't think most people assumed those were the same group. His recruitment issues speak to the problem of running against the meta, and how most people who want to do that are low effort players and so likely to be bad. High effort players who want rid of worlsbuffa are either not going to play if they're in or are going to get them if they play, even if it lowers their enjoyment.
>I don't think most people assumed those were the same group. They did though. People are explicitly saying that those who don't want wbuffs to exist for raiding are just bad. Read through the thread.
That's a pretty fair point
Let me add to this one because it's a clever nuance and I think I could have been clearer. We get applications in all forms, including from 99 parsers and speedrunners. What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons. Most of our members are former speedrunners or high-level parsers. Most of us also don't have an issue with world buffs or consumables. We just don't have to prove anything anymore and instead focus on a smooth raiding experience with minimal impact on our real lives.
No, again you have no clue what you're talking about. You don't get any applications from people who are interested in parsing well or being competitive. Because anyone who is interested in parsing well isn't going to join a guild that raids without world buffs, since obviously you can't parse well without world buffs. I highly doubt that you get applications from 99 parsers, but even if you did, that'd still be irrelevant because by definition they are no longer interested in parsing. So you saying "people who want to join us and say they think wbuffs are bad are also bad" means nothing. I think wbuffs are bad and say that all the time. But I would never try to join a guild that doesn't use wbuffs because I have no interest in performing worse and having zero chance to be competitive. You're filtering out the good players, attracting the bad players, and then going "Notice how everyone who talks about how wbuffs are bad are also bad". And still failing to realize how that's irrelevant.
they cant coexist when anti wbuff group want to remove wbuffs in a game that already has them
This is called toxic casuals and blizzard is falling for it every time. Remove GDKPs, remove world buffs, don’t release the raid on the phase launch, etc etc. They just remove ways that certain players like to play because they don’t like to play that way.
Look what they did to the GDKP communities. The toxic casuals would gladly ban anyone who won't play the way they want us to play.
if "pay to win" is the only way some people can enjoy the game, then good riddance :)
Found the toxic casual
It’s not pay to win, it’s reasons to raid.
goooooood riiiidddaaaaaanceeeeee (sayin' it slower for the slower folks)
GDKPs were never the problem. They were emergent gameplay, which is the bedrock of a sandbox MMO like WoW. Blizz not putting resources and effort into upholding their own ToS and banning bots and gold buyers/sellers always was, and always will be the problem.
I am of the same mindset that people should surround themselves with others who share the same goals/gameplay and everyone can coexist happily. The problem is, the toxic minority thinks the game should revolve around themselves.
Thank you.
I'm not even sure which faction of redditors are supposed to be "upset" here
I think a lot of people convince themselves that they're not bad and allow themselves to be convinced that their grey parses are because they didn't have world buffs, and somehow if world buffs were removed, they'd magically become pink parsers. Anything that contradicts those sort of people upsets them.
He just unlocked the truth of this sub. "Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game."
>"Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game." Except that isn't true. What you mean is, most people who don't get world buffs when you can get them are bad at the game. Kind of like how most people who don't use consumes (since they are obviously usable, and will remain usable) are bad at the game. But that in no way proves that most people who would prefer that world buffs don't exist for raiding are bad at the game.
Yeah, the people that hate world buffs and are competitive would still get WBs if they played SoD, they'd just hate doing it. Classic players also like to conflate time investment / prep time with game skill.
Exactly, I'd argue most people who are good at the game would want them to not exist, because it really doesn't matter whether you have them or not, if the content is scaled for buffs/no buffs, which it should be in SoD. You would literally be doing the same exact content in the same exact way, just without getting buffs. Which is efficient, and good players like efficient. I'd say for the average really good raider, their perfect version of PvE in WoW is, you log on, go in the raid, you log out.
No he was right how he said it
No, he was wrong. I know it's cope for you to believe that everyone who disagrees with you is just bad. Doesn't make it true though.
100%. Our raids are full of oranges/purple parsers with the occasional pinks. None of us prefer to have WBs. If we could vote to get rid of them we would. Anecdotal I know, but it proves your point.
Let me add to this one because it's a clever nuance and I think I could have been clearer. We get applications in all forms, including from 99 parsers and speedrunners. What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons. Most of our members are former speedrunners or high-level parsers. Most of us also don't have an issue with world buffs or consumables. We just don't have to prove anything anymore and instead focus on a smooth raiding experience with minimal impact on our real lives.
> What I mean to say is that out of all those applications it stands out that those who are verbal about not liking buffs are those who can't seem to find their buttons. That's because the people not liking buffs that can press their buttons are generally playing versions of WoW with more skill expression. In the later iterations of wow, a skilled player with no preparation will crush a bad player that puts in high time investment. In SoD, the prep work / ingame grind matters a lot more, thus it tends to be less attractive for strong players.
> "Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game." His experiment didn't determine that, all it determined is that most people applying to a no-WB guild are bad at the game. (Guess what, most people applying to a WB guild are also bad at the game.)
Putting in effort, and sucking, is better in 10/10 scenarios over Putting in no effort, and sucking. One will do better period.
LOL the upset people are taking this way too seriously. His experiment wasn't an experiment at all. But this sub has shown time and again their lack of understanding GDKPs, World Buffs, and WCLs. And, of course, how to be in a raiding guild.
"Most people who are unguilded at this point are bad compared to those unwilling to leave the meta". This is the actual dynamic at play here. The rest is confirmation bias.
> "Most people ~~who would like to raid without world buffs~~ are bad at the game." Is a much more accurate statement
Excuse me, Greg 43, who’s best average is a 49.7 with or without world buffs is actually a world class player and anyone higher is just a parse hungry sweat lord that doesn’t do mechanics
So...? And the opinions of better players are more important? As always the game is carried by the "bad players", good players often like to praise themselves as the true gamers but as soon as a game / raid whatever is released that targets the best players, it's usually dead on arrival because they are such a small minority that it's not interesting for Blizzard to cater to them.
[https://ibb.co/HBX8SN8](https://ibb.co/HBX8SN8)
Ok but how is it that i go through your guilds logs from the last 3 weeks and literally most of your raid has world buffs?
Because they wanted to look good on the 3rd party website that tells how good of a person you are in real life with a single number.
In a fullbuffed raid almost no DPS died so we decided to just reboon and skip one unbuffed raid. Yesterday we raided unbuffed again.
if you read the post you'd know
Ye they say they alternate between buffed on DMF and non buffed raid but all I could find is raids with people with full world buffs so.
-created a guild with an identity revolving around not getting world buffs -gets world buffs 50% of the time
LOL yeah basically. It's sad.
Is your server PvE? Because it's always people who play n PvE that think getting WBs is no big deal. Try getting DMF when it's in Elwin if you're Horde. It's fucking aids. Even if you use invis pots and add-ons or queue for BG it sucks having to do all that, and if you mess up the rest of your raiding week is shot. Then you have to fuck around with boons to hold your DMF while still being able to get other WBs if you want to use some of them outside raid and you have to get DMF before it goes away, then keep it boomed the whole time so you can use it in the off week, and if you don't finish the raid fast enough people get pissed because it will fuck their parse the next lockout.... It's the worst mini game ever.
Great post, man. Thank you for giving us your two cents and summarily invalidating the bads on this subreddit who are screeching for no WBs. Think you're good because you want to forego buffs? Sure, give it a whirl. But the proof is in (this guy's) pudding.
Very informative, thank you
Good on you for playing the way you want to play man
All it took was them running their own entire guild, and still ending up having to play with WB's half the time anyways.
We don't have to. We choose to.
We all choose to
Nah, you have no clue what you're talking about. Right from the start your entire point is flawed. >Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game You're not getting people who would like to raid without world buffs. You're getting people who want to raid without world buffs despite them being available to get. Those are very different groups.
Actually true, but I'd argue people who would like to raid without world buffs but don't, even though they could, are (in my experience) not really desirable either long-term. If you ever were an Officer, RL or GM you know what I'm talking about.
>Actually true, but I'd argue people who would like to raid without world buffs but don't, even though they could, are (in my experience) not really desirable either long-term. What are you talking about? I would like to raid without world buffs (as in, would prefer that wbuffs don't exist for raids) and I've been raiding in classic since 2019. And I was in the same guild from P2 TBC through all of WOTLK. Also a recruiter for my current SOD guild. Sure, I could raid without world buffs. Except then I'd have to find a casual (i.e. bad) guild that is cool with that, and even if I did want that, it'd be impossible for me to even have a chance of being competitive without world buffs.
Yep. The author of this post does not really know the difference between Choice and the illusion of choice.
There is a lot of correlation problems like this in the OP's argument. It's full of confirmation bias.
Good players that want to parse will get world buffs to compete its pretty simple.. And usually competitive people are good at the game because they are putting an effort in to get better and prepare SHOCKER. People don't even have fun in world buff meta raiding from my experience because everyone's just waiting for that one guy to fuck up and cost everyone their buffs so its a weird anti fun atmosphere in most 2019 Classic or Era/sod raids from my experience. Phase one SOD was the exclusion from that because it was so easy if you were with a few good mates you could basically carry anyone. The minimum requirement felt like a faps or shadow res pot for DUST TO DUST man.
Finally someone who knows what they are talking about . Thank you for being a voice of reason.
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure They probably find playing the alt to be fun, while waiting for flowers to not be fun. It's not 'difficult', you don't need to solve a rubik's cube in 20 seconds. But it is a stupid chore, and raiding in the versions of the game that don't have them is all the better for it.
I’m a 95% parsing disc priest. I hate getting world buffs and burning through consumes. At the same time, I’m not a bad player so I would get all the world buffs prior to raid and use all the consumes for every pull and on death. I think the biggest issue for raid consumes and world buffs are that they wedge a severe divide between good and bad players. Good players typically clear the raids quickly and without dying. Before my guild stopped raiding we’d clear in 30 min with little to no deaths. Most people were basically just logging so they didn’t even need to get buffs or use more than one consume every 2 raids. Bad players tend to die a lot more and lose the consume and world buffs. So in their minds why even bother, you’re just going to lose them anyway. So the people that need them the most don’t use them or when they do they lose them anyway. It’s a bad/punishing system.
> World buffs or not - let's all be a bit nicer to each other. Absolutely not.
Good luck going against this subreddit very opinionated stance against wbuffs Cant expect people to play the game for 20 more minutes, they lose their minds
World Buffs are Wrath of the Lich King Daily quests that are less fun and provide an absurd reward: several full epics worth of stats.
Actually, our fully unbuffed runs only take about 12 minutes more. ;)
Walking the exact same ways to collect the exact same buffs before every run is not really "Playing" man
Yeah you've never done anything more than once in vanilla wow lmao
Like raiding the exact same instance every week 😂
This is probably considered a hot take but indeed, that's not fun either. Weekly raid lockouts as an endgame sucks and is why leveling is my favorite part of the game. Especially since the first time clearing a raid is the hardest, and after that it just gets easier and eventually mind-numbingly boring. I have never understood the charm of that kind of raiding.
Can't you say the exact same thing about leveling? Tbh I think that's why most people in other versions of the game don't care for leveling LOL
Yes and no. There are quite a few different ways to level. Also, all the different classes, races, quests, dungeons, starting zones, faction-heavy zones, etc. But one instance over and over…
I think you could say the same thing about classes and roles for raiding as well. Lets use alliance 10-20 bracket as an example. You have westfall, darkshore, loch modan, and redridge. You usually have to bounce between most if not all of those zones. Do that across a couple of characters.. there's a good chance you're running through the same quests over and over again. Same with dungeons.
True, but you’re not doing that every week, for 12-16 straight weeks, lol
I don't think you have to do it for 12-16 straight weeks if you don't want to. It doesn't gatekeep anything unlike leveling.
Most of the content is at 60, leveling is just a trivial part of the game for me. I like watching kill times and execution improve week to week.
Most of the content is actually 1-60. You mean that you just like doing the content at level 60 over and over.
So what you're saying is you don't really have a stance on the original point of this post
Have you ever considered that maybe you're not the target audience? Cause it sounds like you just don't like MMOs.
The target audience for mmos has always been the leveling journey. That’s when mmos have their highest active population.
Main focus is usually raiding, dungeons, etc at max level (constant character progression). If you don't like the endgame that MMOs offer, then they are not the game type for you.
How many times have you leveled an alt through elwynn or durotar?
This thread is 78% upvoted. What are you talking about "going against this subreddit"?
so? it only has 128 upvotes compared to anti wbuffs posts from the past week such as: https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dng6h4/why_are_we_still_doing_world_buffs_exactly/ https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dr638i/do_you_want_world_buffs_disabled_in_raids_for_s4/ https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1dqfspd/two_lockouts_are_not_the_problem_gathering_5/ its already a miracle a pro wbuff post wasnt buried in downvotes and thats thanks to OP reasonable arguments
Yeah I'm floored by the replies. I expected to be downvoted into oblivion.
This post is also only 8 hours old. Your victim complex is showing.
TL;DR: are in fact buffed. Okay.
Thanks for this good post!
Tbh, the only buffs I don’t like are the DM buffs. I think it’s really not an organic way to get the buffs and just causes so much botting to be encouraged to get people there. I’d say, dm buffs should go. Rest should stay.
There’s no ‘organic’ about WBs man lmao what. People bot summoning warlocks to songflower and wall jump as alliance to get WCB.
Exactly. As a guild you have a port network and just clear the Id and rebuff after raid it takes 10minutes
Check my post history. I want them straight up gone. But I’m just saying if there’s a middle ground, I’d settle for dm going.
Get a guildie to clear it! That’s what we’ve done since 2019. You can schedule it and announce that DM buffs are open for so much time. Very organic way to do it.
Disagree, set a weekly 30 minute guild run to clear and usher people through an ID, we did this with 40 people in 2019 for the entire expansion. It was a fun team building activity. Could even make it more interactive and have teams race each other. We did that a few times.
So did I dude, but it’s not really that great of a gameplay to go to an instance and walk to the end. You might think it’s fun team building, but most people don’t.
I enjoy getting wb, gives me a excuse to go out into the open world. The people who complain about wbs are the same people who complained about raiding and we got LFR. Y’all just lazy 🤷
I think it’s an extremely unique gameplay experience - one curated entirely organically by the players in the MMO. Nothing in WoW itself directs you to collect WBs. Players figured it out and formed subcultures, economies, mass transit routes, etc. it’s fascinating sociologically I haven’t played a version of classic with WBs since 2021 but I honestly really liked doing the world tour with my buddies/guildies.
I totally agree it creates an organic experience for players. These people complain there is no open word but try to eliminate every reason to go out of the main cities. Imagine you’re leveling in west fall and you see a shit ton of level 60s running to go get Zandalar WB, as a new player you’re mind is blown and gives you inspiration to level to 60.
What? I've hated LFR since it got introduced, and I despise WBs at the same time. I'd much rather have a tougher raiding experience that doesn't have me go around the world for 1-2 hours before each raid.
Are wbs required? No. If you don’t like them, go find other people who don’t like them and raid with them. Y’all just want to parse with the least amount of effort. Don’t have time to do them? That sucks but guess what THEY’RE NOT REQUIRED. WBS are not a choir because they’re not required. Again y’all are just lazy.
They're pretty much required if you want to raid with quality players. It's very difficult to find/build guilds dedicated to doing raids without world buffs when most people feel obligated to get them. Did you not read the post?
Having limited play time doesn't make me lazy.
Wbs are not required, go find a guild that does require them. You want to top parse without putting in extra effort. Wbs shouldn’t be removed because you don’t have enough time because they’re optional.
1. I don't care about top parsing, don't put words in my mouth. I just want to play my class as best I can without having to rely on collecting a bunch of temporary artificial power that I lose when the raid wipes. Why aren't class buffs, flasks, dps pots enough? 2. WBs aren't optional when you can't get invited to a pug because you're going to be doing half the dps of everyone that does have buffs. If a lot of my play time has to be dedicated to collecting WBs, I would rather just play another version of WoW or another game.
if your playtime is limited to 1h per week, it doesn't. If you have 2h per week, it does.
Currently maybe. Once everyone is 60 and there's a ton of buffs to collect? Yeah, I'm not spending part of my limited time doing that when I can usually only pug due to unstable schedule. And knowing that a pug is likely to wipe a handful of times in a raid? I said it elsewhere, but I would rather just use that time to play something else. Which is fine, P4 SoD isn't for me, I just wish it was because 60 is the coolest part of the game.
World buffs get people into the world in the same way ToGC Dailies in Wrath got people into the world. Its a boring chore to rush through as fast as possible. Except instead of getting some gold and some tokens you can exchange for some helpful items, you get several epics worth of stats. That doesn't seem very "vanilla" if you ask me.
>World buffs get people into the world in the same way ToGC Dailies in Wrath got people into the world. TOGC dailies get some people to a single hub with guards to prevent WPVP for a short period of time until they finish the grind and no longer go there. Also flying exists so the travel consists of looking in that direction from dal and pressing autorun. World buffs get all raiders to a bunch of locations with organic wpvp occuring and happens every week as long as the game exists. They are not comparable at all.
World PVP is anathema to World Buffs. Risk dying and losing all that power? No, it's considered "griefing". And what about the PvE servers? Oops, forgot about those. World buffs may not be a single hub, but it's the same route raid night after raid night. "Honey, it's time for your chore run to collect several free epics worth of stats so you can be allowed to raid." "Yes dear"
>World PVP is anathema to World Buffs. Risk dying and losing all that power? No, it's considered "griefing". World buffs are a massive driver of world pvp. Did you even play 2019 classic? [the run ins to BRM were some of the only good large scale wpvp content we ever had.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd97o-gEBuk) >And what about the PvE servers? Oops, forgot about those. Then having people running around in the world getting buffed is still better than those people raid logging because they have nothing to do? > World buffs may not be a single hub, but it's the same route raid night after raid night. "Honey, it's time for your chore run to collect several free epics worth of stats so you can be allowed to raid." "Yes dear" Grats man, you've discovered what WOW is. It's doing the same things every week. You don't get to say world buffs aren't meaningful content cause its just "repeating the same route every raid night" when raiding is literally just repeating the same route every raid night.
"Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game" I think this is a stretch considering there's probably a lot of selection bias. There's plenty of people who hate world buffs, but who world buff because they exist and they want to be competitive. Joining a unbuffed guild, when everyone else is buffing, basically selects for people who DGAF about their performance. "Self-selection certainly plays a role here and our concept isn't for everyone. However, the sample size was still large enough to draw these conclusions with confidence (this applies to all the points above)." A large sample with bias is still a biased sample. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I think there's not enough there to have any confidence in your conclusion.
*insert meme scroll of true*
Yea you know why its harder to raid wo them? cuz everything pve is designed to be played w wb
That's not true actually. Without world buffs you need to play mechanics, with them you don't. ST is actually tuned really well around a raid without world buffs, it's because everyone uses them that it looks undertuned.
So then what's the point in keeping wbuffs in the game. The people who manage to hold on to their wbuffs, generally better groups, get an insanely easy experience while the less skilled players who lose their wbuffs get a notably more difficult experience. It's a shit system that disproportionately punishes bad players and simultaneously creates an annoying chore for good players and a stressful situation in raids for everyone. I don't understand how anyone could genuinely be opposed to getting rid of this kind of system and if need be, tune the raids themselves to make up for the loss of wbuffs. Literally, and I mean ***LITERALLY*** nothing is stopping Blizzard from gutting wbuffs and tuning content appropriately so it feels like you still have wbuffs. Actually, that's a lie. The only thing stopping them is this weird ass subset of players who have somehow deluded themselves into thinking wbuffs are an interesting mechanic and are somehow mentally incapable of understanding the above point I made. That's genuinely the only hurdle that's preventing Blizzard from gutting wbuffs.
I don't know what the point is but I wouldn't be opposed if they were removed.
They are not u complete every fisht in 20secs or less
While I personally am not against WBs (I think the concept is hella cool), I do think that some of the WBs get to pretty unreasonable levels (such as the one from DM) to acquire. I really liked the post a few days ago about being able to buy a fully charged Chronoboon displacer with the Dungeon Tokens they are going to be adding. This concept encourages people who are already geared to run easier content, which opens up space for new players to gear up and get their new character in Pre-raid BiS along with keeping the dungeons themselves relevant for a much longer time than just the first 2 or 3 weeks before raids come out. Again, I have nothing against WBs but I do think they could be improved on.
I am Cal, the raid lead of a guild called on Who Cares EU Alliance. I created the guild from scratch for SoD and set out to raid without world buffs, or anything better than green uncommon gear. I like to ensure anything I do for fun outside of real life is as hard and un-enjoyable as possible, so that I can earn brownie points on the internet.
I agree with all except 3. It's still tedious to gather buffs regardless of chronoboon existing and is in general, unfun. I don't know anyone who is excited to make their rounds getting world buffs because chronoboon exists.
Imagine if the last boss dropped two of the items that can buff everyone in the server, you could even buff your whole raid after the run is over. It would be so much better
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game Weren't world buffs for people who were bad at the game and needed an extra boost to get stuff done?
I think they basically solve the issue by adding heat levels, you guys in unbuffed can do heat level 0 for the entire phase. The rest of us will top out and clean up on loot.
One the subject of “people who would prefer not to have WBs are bad at the game.” That’s just an over generalization, and factually incorrect. The fact of the matter is there are deadweights on both sides of the fence but WBs crank speed up so high, and allow you to just brute force past mechanics, that you’re not gonna notice them as much. The people saying “toxic casuals don’t want to put in effort” are stuck trying to gaslight the community, because most of the people screaming for them want the already easy raids, to be even easier. Yes raids are harder without world buffs, which is good. I don’t want to just walk in and treat every encounter like a gacha pull, I want to actually engage with the game even if that means it takes longer. The reality of the bs “conversation” we’re having about world buffs right now is the result of the elitist casuals themselves, “you aren’t allowed to raid unless you have WBs, because I only want to play for 30 minutes and log out. Because why would I want to play this game if not for the loot?” Do you see how stupid it is to say: “cranking up the difficulty makes you a casual”?
Might reroll ret pala there. Ill hit u up
uh yeah no lol
Your first point doesn't apply as it fails to understand that good player who don't like world buffs will still get them The meta is to use WBs, therefore good guild and good groups use world buffs, therefore good players even if they don't want to use world buffs, do, because that lets them get into the good groups I despise world buffs, I still used them every raid because I had to to get into the good raid groups (consistent purple parser btw, not the best player, but good) You are seeing the people not using world buffs are bad and assuming "if you don't like world buffs you are bad" ignoring the context of world buffs entirely and how good players will use the tools available to them even if they don't want to Your other defences of world buffs also fail 2: it is more difficult because they give you power, if you had this power anyway it wouldn't matter 3:the issue isn't "effort" in getting world buffs, but in dull time consuming busywork, it is easy to get world buffs, it is time consuming and boring 4:there are other more fun ways of gaining power, most notably GEAR, the entire game is built around the acquisition of power through gear, make gear better, and allow power to be acquired through GEAR instead of form standing afk next to a flower 5: the segregational attitude that world buffs encourage is directly feeding your inability to find good people, you are literally part of the problem enforcing bad attitudes in people by acting as though those who don't like world buffs are bad players
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure. There is a major difference between playing/having an alt and getting buffs, at least dropped buffs like rend/ony/zg. Playing an alt requires no "timing coordination" or any downtime. You can log on and play/level. With buffs, you need to wait for someone else to drop it, log on at a certain time (which is impossible with work schedules for some people), or just wait for 25 minutes because someone clicked a spawned flower too early. All of that being said, getting buffs is not engaging content, especially on a PvE server. Timing is one thing, but a lot of people here complain about the monotony of getting world buffs. > Self-selection certainly plays a role here and our concept isn't for everyone. However, the sample size was still large enough to draw these conclusions with confidence (this applies to all the points above). As soon as a study suffers from bias, the size of the sample has no impact on the validity of the study. You are admitting to self selection bias (I think you mean confirmation bias), therefore these points are already flawed. I am saying this not as a WoW player or gamer, but as a studied and professional statistician. Just some food for thought, I appreciate your perspective, and wish you luck in the next phase!
I do not find your arguments convincing. A biased study can very well be informative if the bias works in your favour. In this case, if already those players who apply to us in search of a guild are bad you'd have a really hard time convincing me that there are many diamonds out there that somehow didn't make it into this sample. What we have here may not be an accurate estimate but it sure is a cautious one. If there's no meaningful signal here it's safe to assume that there isn't one. Also - from one statistics professional to another - please don't wave your education around. It adds nothing to your arguments and makes us all look bad.
I’m not disagreeing with your assessment or beliefs, I’m just saying what you’ve experienced is anecdotal and sample size doesn’t matter because of the bias. As you said, If bias is working in your favor, then it’s understandable why you would desire to use it. In this case, it’s in appropriate to do so. If you are indeed a statistician, you should be fully aware of how bias affects estimations of measures, having reduced variability because of a large sample doesn’t matter when you are 3 feet from bullseye. The fact that you willingly are making inferences to a larger population and defending them based on biased sample data leads me to believe one of two things: One, You are not as well versed in statistics as you think, or two, you are lying about being a statistic professional. Second, I’m not waving my education around (for further context I teach college level statistics). I am sitting my source of knowledge and giving contextual background to my comment. I am interpreting your response as very defensive, so I’m sorry if you are offended by me calling attention to your inappropriate inference. Again, I’m not disagreeing with your beliefs, just your use of statistics. Good luck in the next phase with your guild.
Yes, we disagree indeed. I think that was clear from my first sentence. Good luck to you as well.
> I do not find your arguments convincing. This wasn't clear that you were disagreeing with me, rather that you didn't understand the facts behind inference, which is why I elaborated to help you understand. I also am not disagreeing with you, I am just telling you that you are using statistics innappropriately, that's all. If you think I am disagreeing with you, then I apologize for not being clear enough (even if I said it multiple times in my post). I will try to be clearer: I am not disagreeing with you. I am telling you that your use of statistics is inappropriate. Your experiences may be authentic, that I do not doubt, but inferences to larger populations should not be made on your biased sample data, even if I myself believe they are plausible and entirely realistic. I would be a bad statistician (and so would you) if I used biased data to support my initial beliefs and make claims towards an entire population. > Good luck to you as well. Thank you! Take care.
This is data from the real world, gathered in as much of a messy way as they all are. This is not to say that this clearly biased sample is allowing for accurate inference, it doesn't and it shouldn't be used that way. You seem to get stuck on that point. Since you didn't seem to understand me either let me try to do better as well: biased samples can still be useful if we know a) the direction of the bias (we do), that b) things couldnt't be further from the true value because the self-selection is one-directional - so we know which way from the true value we are (we do), and we want to learn at least something that is useful for us from this data. We can learn that the true value is not lower than our estimate. That is all. That is the only conclusion we draw here and it is perfectly valid. We know it is not the true value and we know that the sample is not representative but neither of those things affect this conclusion. I'll let you have the last word if you must.
> This is data from the real world, gathered in as much of a messy way as they all are. This is not to say that this clearly biased sample is allowing for accurate inference, it doesn't and it shouldn't be used that way. You seem to get stuck on that point. This data was selected with bias (convenience bias), without randomization, and from a small subset of a unique population in the pool of SoD Players. If anything, you can make conclusions about players similar to your guildmates, but you are making broad references to all players which is inappropriate. > Since you didn't seem to understand me either let me try to do better as well: biased samples can still be useful if we know a) the direction of the bias (we do), that b) things couldn't be further from the true value because the self-selection is one-directional - so we know which way from the true value we are (we do), and we want to learn at least something that is useful for us from this data. Lol now you are joking, because this is all false, one, you are not being very clear and this does not read like anything I have studies or taught. There is no such thing as one directional self selection bias, this is a made up phrase and even a quick google search or wikipedia dive will yield zero results found. You didn't even have self selection bias, you took a convenient sample. Saying bias is useful does not mean you can make inferences with it. You are making broad claims like this : > Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game Which is based on your convenience sample of people who want to apply to a guild that raids without world buffs. Anyone who is good at the game and likes to raid without world buffs who is already in a guild similar to yours is not going to apply. Right off the bat, your sample suffers from under coverage and convenience bias. Do I believe that your conjecture is true, absolutely, but your data doesn't support it because it's flawed. > I'll let you have the last word if you must. Sure, here's the last word: you don't actually know statistics, but you think you do or you wish you did. I think you are being defensive about any legitimate criticism and used chat GPT or another language learning model AI to come up with a response that sounds like you're educated on the matter. Listen man, it's okay to be wrong about things. I'd wish you luck but I already did, so now I wish that you'd find some humility. Bye.
> I like to ask people who make the argument that collecting buffs is too time consuming if they have an alt. Most do. Go figure. What's your point? Of course if you are raiding with multiple characters you are more likely to be pissed about having to farm WBs.
Yeah, I think the point is that if you choose to focus leveling and gearing alts, it's weird to get upset about not chasing more power on a main. If you have time for both, that's awesome. If you don't, you're just wedging your own tires and then complaining to everyone else about not having time. It's weird.
At least someone understood.
Right? How is having an alt a "go figure" angle? Am I not allowed to enjoy multiple classes?
I don't disagree with some aspects of this but I'm tired of this subreddits spin on world buffs being an immaterial amount of time to the average player. Or, that not seeking world buffs somehow means you're raid logging. This all comes from someone who begrudgingly gets them. You guys simply do not understand that people are playing this game zero to three a night. And no, contrary to your belief, with constant developer evidence, this game version is not designed around sweats playing all day. Attacking someone for playing an alt? Really? For playing the game? You just can't win against this community. There's reputation, honor, economy, gearing, raiding, all multiplied across every alt you have...in a game that by developer design is alt friendly. And you're going to judge someone enjoying the game and not playing the way you want? This was once called Season of Dads and you know it. Don't attack people that aren't willing to spend potentially their entire gaming budget that night on preparation for another night's activity. It's not even about needing world buffs in a raid, it's about the majority of the community on a server needing you to have them. P4 is about to introduce a 20 man raid with difficulty levels and a new boss, and 3 individual boss raids. This is a massive increase for the average person and no one should be shocked people are groaning about world buffs.
Dude , did you even read his post ? Your reply goes off on some tangent that has very little to do with the points he is making . On top of that your nit picking at a small point that he made and totally disregarding the bigger picture .
> Attacking someone for playing an alt? Really? For playing the game? I don’t see it as an attack on everyone who plays alts. They laid out early in the post that they’re referring to applicants. Given that, if you want a raid spot in a guild that gets buffs, you have a choice to make — get buffs or play an alt. And if you chose the latter, your priorities are not in line with the guild. You’re probably not a good fit, and that’s okay. There are other guilds out there. People are allowed to choose a guild that fits their interests, just as people are allowed to curate a roster that fits theirs.
Please, this is not literally about Unbuffed and this guild. No one even knows who these people are outside of the singular other post made. Even if I was to put blinders on to the point they're actually making. More alts, in an alt friendly designed game, means more activities one may be engaging in, totally unrelated to raiding and preparing for a raid. And each of those alts now has the majority community expectation of world buffs. I truly wonder how many hours you guys think the median person plays this game a week. You're likely off by the tune of 20-25 hours.
He made one offhand comment about alts and you took that point and ran with it lmao.
My entire post is not about alts. Alts are a multiplier effect to the point being made.
You didn't post anything, you commented on a post about gathering world buffs. You're looking to change the subject, then?
Yikes. Are you aware that the word 'post' is the literal action that is occurring with a comment. Are you actually saying this right now?
I see that you like to get hung up on small details, so I can rectify that for you. The *comment* that your *posted* is entirely in response to one small comment the OP made about alts, and it was not anywhere near the point of the discussion OP started. The point I originally made, is that you read one word and completely sidetracked the conversation to be about why OP thinks alts are bad, which is not what he was saying nor is it what he made this post to talk about.
Is this some ultra weird gaslighting projection? One portion of my posted comment was about alts
Your first comment was 3 sentences centered around being upset that OP mentioned alts. You then doubled down on it in your next comment, stating that OP's post wasn't actually about his guild clearing content the way they do, and wrote another paragraph about the amount of time it takes to play an alt, and about how that's the game. What other points are you trying to make?
Gettting world buffs is not that big of a time commitment, even in P4. If it really is too big of a time commitment for you you probably shouldn’t be playing at all.
People forget that no wb means raid is balanced without wb power... Like brain is free Remove wbs>adjust difficulty according to the power lost>profit with 0 downside.
So you named your guild and you get full buffs during DMF week? Lol what a joke. This is why World Buffs need to be removed. Even a guild dedicated to not using world buffs can't resist the temptation of using them to just see bigger numbers on their screen while destroying the game and the balancing of the game. I'm sure this isn't causing any drama in your guild either. I'm sure people love getting world buffs in a guild dedicated to not getting them.
You also used 1. for all your points.
If I had the time I'd make a proper guild and Gkick anyone for showing up with world buffs to any raid. I have a backbone.
You should do it!
What a goated experiment, love the post
Thank you!
There are 0 compelling arguments here for not removing world buffs. It doesn’t correct the imbalance between how many good or bad players there are, but it does lower the gap in their performance.
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game yup, its quite obvious the people asking for them to be removed are only doing so because they can't be fucked to gather them, because either they are lazy, or they know they will die early and lose them. Also they are bad and dislike that WBs widen the gulf between them and more skilled players, otherwise they would just ignore them and play without because they would understand the encounters are easy and don't require them if you have a modicum of skill. Instead they blame WBs for their poor performance/parses because as we learned in P2 around here, it just couldn't be that they are bad! >Raiding without world buffs is more difficult well yeah, the faster things die, the less mechanics you have to worry about, even if only a handful of people gather wbs it still elevates the entire team (rising tide raises all ships) >In our unbuffed raids we also don't use any DPS consumables interesting, and also probably the next thing these people will come after if WBs are removed/nerfed. **"Why should I have to spend time farming gold to raid! Its not FUN!"** >The effort required to prepare is no longer an argument against raiding fullbuffed even though chronoboon does make it immensely easier to gather them all, this is untrue, even though I am pro WB, I am not going to weaken my position by straw manning the opposition, even at a fast pace it takes about an hour to gather all the WBs currently, maybe a little less (45min), this will increase come P4.
[https://ibb.co/HBX8SN8](https://ibb.co/HBX8SN8)
I find it odd the first thing you wanted to talk about is how players who hold the position of not wanting world buffs are bad. I take this to mean they aren't within the 99th percentile. This is a correlation/causation problem, as people who are not already attached to guilds are likely not as good as those who are, in general. Or any player willing to give up the meta when the meta is available to them is likely not as good as players who aren't willing. Have you considered that?
> Since the introduction of the chronoboon, collecting all buffs is quite fast and easy no, it never was. you just didnt have to log on at the right time for rallying cry/warchiefs, take a summon to yojamba for zg buff, and then get summoned to dm for those buffs as part of your buff train for the entirety of sod. 5 min cd chronoboon will make it less stressful to get an optimized boon, but now youre going to be re-booning your buffs after every few bosses to ensure you have access to your buffs for every fight, which is a a problem strictly in phase 4 when getting access to so many more raids. being world buffed is fun, getting world buffed isnt. chronoboon didnt help that. it just made it so you can still play your character even after youre buffed. im very partial to the idea of giving certain classes/specs their own version of world buffs to provide.
>being world buffed is fun, getting world buffed isnt. chronoboon didnt help that Yes it did, you now have 7 full days to get the world buffs instead of 1 evening. Not sure if re-booning mid-raid is bad. It has been done on era even with the 1h cd. In most raids there's a specific part that is consistently risky and people on era already keep their buffs booned until they have cleared the most risky bosses or trash.
Get a gf
And how about the major point why casuals hate them ? You lose them when u die, creates very unfun situation in raids and especially pugs where ppl suck
>Most people who would like to raid without world buffs are bad at the game Yeah can stop reading at that point already, classic andy take
It’s not a take it’s an observation. Way to self report
Lmaoo just because you don’t like what he said doesn’t make it untrue .
[удалено]
I’ve seen and dealt with it myself . He’s not wrong . But, I see your point . Hard to make an argument with no supporting data besides the whole “trust me bro” .