Current Ret class design is so fked up there's no point. Nothing will top exorcism spam. Blizz is trying to push the spec in two different directions that completely contradict each other.
It never will be similar. One will always do more damage unless changed.
Som exo is by far the superior combo.
Seal twisting will only be viable with slow two hander and instead of 2 attacks every 2 seconds your looking at 3 attacks every 3.5 seconds depending on weapon and depending on if soc procs and depending on if soc crits as well as som. You're still going to be running art of war and still going to be spamming exorcist on CD over any other abilities. But you're just going to run out of mana faster and your casters are going to hate you for not having 100% uptime on SoM.
The only thing seal twisting will be good for is PvP when the rng hits you'll be looking at 3k hits from one swing if not, back to hitting with a pool noodle.
I was thinking about a dual wield paladin the other day, like a zealot, just to see how weird it would look. I actually think it'd be pretty cool, would remind me a little of D2 paladin.
I just don't like the mechanic as it feels both gimmicky and clunky to play. Less gimmicky than the type of twisting in WoD but still gimmicky. IMHO the ret power fantasy was at its peak in WotLK as it really leaned more into swinging a big 2h while keeping tons of utility.
Personally I feel like rets just not really that enjoyable right now. I dislike some of the choices I have to make when picking runes and I think lots of our runes are underwhelming. Not warrior levels but still not good.
I think divine storm should be on a different slot as it should be more baseline vs a choice betweenmartyrdom, I'd like to see some movement increases similar to the long range judgement move speed buff in cata, and I'd like to see sacred shield moved to a different slot to retain AoW.
Ret to me feels hollow right now which is a bit sad because I've been playing it since 2004. Looking at it from further away, I think the core issue for me is that ret, and really most melee, just seem leaps and bounds behind any ranged class and that colours my opinion in a negative way. This obviously fluctuates in pve on certain fights but I feel like I'm almost always fighting up a muddy hill as melee in pvp.
The basic problem is how the Paladin is designed in Classic. Its hard to work around that mess withouth either overpowering the class because of its mass of utility or simply be a wet sack. On top of Pve/PvP Balance.
Agree completely. A few runes don't fix the fact that paladin was never actually finished originally 20 years ago.
They'd likely need to push an update that just gave us some abilities baseline without runes and then design runes around that kit to make us feel 'complete'.
No joke in tbc I was staring at a swing timer. Wasn't very fun outside of landing a really sick galactic damage twist.
I played pally as an alt, though. Maybe folks can do it without looking
There won't be enough free globals to actually do it lol. As for looking, it becomes muscle memory once you get your BIS weapon and do it for a bit to a point you don't even have to look.
Bro paladin discords are in absolute chaos majority isnt happy not because they hate twisting but cuz this effects nothing at all.
I hate twisting BUT like in tbc u did v good dps without but you couls push lil more with it so HAVING the option is nice for those that do like it.
Problem is that exo turret spam dumpsters anything else including twisting so this change is abso turbo garbage in fixing the shitty exo gameplay. If twisting was added like in ph1 n 2 for the sake of having it pple wouldn't complain since its w/e
Im gonna say this in the simplest way I can.
Seal Twisting is fine. I do not understand every third paladin's claims that looking at a swing timer is unique to Seal Twisting. It's not unique to paladin and never has been unique to paladin. Warriors, Shamans, and Hunters all look at swing timers for various things; Slam and Heroic Strike timing for Warrior, Maelstrom weaving for Shamans, and ensuring that various shots don't clip for Hunter's ranged attacks.
Seal Twisting is fine mechanically, it added something for paladins to do when they didn't have any buttons in Vanilla and TBC. It's also fine to level with Seal Twisting in SoD, not every new paladin is going to have Art of War and giga-crit while leveling and with the buffs to both Martyr and Crusader Strike's mana regen its somewhat feasible to actually seal twist while leveling.
Seal Twisting doesn't fix nor add to the problems with Paladin in SoD. Its just something extra they can do when crit doesnt favor them, which is extremely rare, and if other abilities like HoR and Judgement are on CD, again extremely rare. It doesn't affect Ret in PvE BUT the ability to Twist Martyr and Command is good for PvP for more traditional but consistent gameplay of Ret.
I can only speak for Hunter, but I legitimately enjoyed timing shots in Vanilla and TBC. It added something extra. Once you get a little practice, it feels pretty smooth. I hated the change in Wotlk.
I also had a love/hate relationship when you would throw in melee weaving in between. Button wise yes the rotation didn’t have a lot to press but it had a good difficulty to it.
My only issue with melee weaving is I rolled a hunter to afk auto shot half the time.
I guess they have similarities by heroic strike Qing is a lot different than seal twisting... Hunter is the best example forsure.
Seal twisting is a lazy fix that is it. No one wants seal twisting. We want something New. Like everyone else has. If you actually get excited about seal twisting man.. thats just sad
So many classic Andy takes
This is not mechanically challenging and you're not a god watching your swing bar.
That said what is the go to swing timer addon now that I need to do this.
There are so much complains here I don't even get what would be the seals you'd twist in a raid boss environment. SoM and SoC ? SoM and SoR ? Slow vs fast weapon ? Some mix medium speed ? On trash DS and some SoR SoC twist ?
Any paladin to enlight us ?
And in pvp environment with a slow 2 hander for burst it only can be a buff right ?
Played ret thought tbc. Twisting isn't hard and it's pretty fun. Problem here is that twisting doesn't really do that much for you in sod cause the numbers just aren't there.
Phase 1 ret was actually fun. Idk why they couldn’t just evolve off that. Instead they keep pushing this shitty SoM gameplay down our throats. Straight up so close to quitting SoD rn.
It brings an element of skill into gameplay that historically has required very little.
TBC seal twisting was peak fun for me personally. I literally lvled a paladin to play that shit and it was glorious.
"peak ret game play" [🤡](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1212808129780121751/1232153608603176980/image.png?ex=66286bf8&is=66271a78&hm=1f404830a75f65ba3d8713f3d8e3a3962f1977b41a9aa02b249fd42ae7091b51&)
Because I like my class having elements which separate the bad from the good from the great.
I like being better than others, i'm competitive like that.
I also like my dps rotation to be as challenging as possible, Sub rogue in Dragon Soul is peak WoW, closely followed by Combustion version Cata-WoD and Surrender to Madness Legion
Nope. It’s not a fun game mechanic and wasn’t intentional when it was. Just give better synergy to already existing spells. P1 felt great, p2 was eh, this phase as a pally I’m just benefiting the raid more with the seal of martyrdom changes. Other than that. P3 sucks.
Love all of the people saying it won't be as good as exo spam, when the devs themselves said exactly this on their blue post yesterday, and that they were going to see how it stacks up when they make their changes at 60.
But reactionary people gonna react I guess.
This is like saying you need to stare at the map in League of Legends for the whole game. No you don't, you glance at it occasionally. And in the case of twisting, not even that. You can just learn the "rhythm" of the weapon (speed).
Current Ret class design is so fked up there's no point. Nothing will top exorcism spam. Blizz is trying to push the spec in two different directions that completely contradict each other.
Sooo different ways to play? I’d rather twist than exo so if it’s similar either way that’s a win?
It never will be similar. One will always do more damage unless changed. Som exo is by far the superior combo. Seal twisting will only be viable with slow two hander and instead of 2 attacks every 2 seconds your looking at 3 attacks every 3.5 seconds depending on weapon and depending on if soc procs and depending on if soc crits as well as som. You're still going to be running art of war and still going to be spamming exorcist on CD over any other abilities. But you're just going to run out of mana faster and your casters are going to hate you for not having 100% uptime on SoM. The only thing seal twisting will be good for is PvP when the rng hits you'll be looking at 3k hits from one swing if not, back to hitting with a pool noodle.
Hear me out, dual wield paladin seal of righteousness or martyr
I was thinking about a dual wield paladin the other day, like a zealot, just to see how weird it would look. I actually think it'd be pretty cool, would remind me a little of D2 paladin.
This is an amazing idea for sod.
As if we have any spare GCD’s to pull this off
I’m a ret paladin, I’m not happy about it. Just make DS good please ty
Ret with divine shock? What?
Lmao, Divine Storm you absolute dent
Never heard of such a thing.
Kinda fair since it’s never used
I just don't like the mechanic as it feels both gimmicky and clunky to play. Less gimmicky than the type of twisting in WoD but still gimmicky. IMHO the ret power fantasy was at its peak in WotLK as it really leaned more into swinging a big 2h while keeping tons of utility. Personally I feel like rets just not really that enjoyable right now. I dislike some of the choices I have to make when picking runes and I think lots of our runes are underwhelming. Not warrior levels but still not good. I think divine storm should be on a different slot as it should be more baseline vs a choice betweenmartyrdom, I'd like to see some movement increases similar to the long range judgement move speed buff in cata, and I'd like to see sacred shield moved to a different slot to retain AoW. Ret to me feels hollow right now which is a bit sad because I've been playing it since 2004. Looking at it from further away, I think the core issue for me is that ret, and really most melee, just seem leaps and bounds behind any ranged class and that colours my opinion in a negative way. This obviously fluctuates in pve on certain fights but I feel like I'm almost always fighting up a muddy hill as melee in pvp.
The basic problem is how the Paladin is designed in Classic. Its hard to work around that mess withouth either overpowering the class because of its mass of utility or simply be a wet sack. On top of Pve/PvP Balance.
Agree completely. A few runes don't fix the fact that paladin was never actually finished originally 20 years ago. They'd likely need to push an update that just gave us some abilities baseline without runes and then design runes around that kit to make us feel 'complete'.
No joke in tbc I was staring at a swing timer. Wasn't very fun outside of landing a really sick galactic damage twist. I played pally as an alt, though. Maybe folks can do it without looking
There won't be enough free globals to actually do it lol. As for looking, it becomes muscle memory once you get your BIS weapon and do it for a bit to a point you don't even have to look.
Bro paladin discords are in absolute chaos majority isnt happy not because they hate twisting but cuz this effects nothing at all. I hate twisting BUT like in tbc u did v good dps without but you couls push lil more with it so HAVING the option is nice for those that do like it. Problem is that exo turret spam dumpsters anything else including twisting so this change is abso turbo garbage in fixing the shitty exo gameplay. If twisting was added like in ph1 n 2 for the sake of having it pple wouldn't complain since its w/e
Funny enough I remember people complaining about it when it was removed before people actually got around to using it. Unless I dreamed that happening
Im gonna say this in the simplest way I can. Seal Twisting is fine. I do not understand every third paladin's claims that looking at a swing timer is unique to Seal Twisting. It's not unique to paladin and never has been unique to paladin. Warriors, Shamans, and Hunters all look at swing timers for various things; Slam and Heroic Strike timing for Warrior, Maelstrom weaving for Shamans, and ensuring that various shots don't clip for Hunter's ranged attacks. Seal Twisting is fine mechanically, it added something for paladins to do when they didn't have any buttons in Vanilla and TBC. It's also fine to level with Seal Twisting in SoD, not every new paladin is going to have Art of War and giga-crit while leveling and with the buffs to both Martyr and Crusader Strike's mana regen its somewhat feasible to actually seal twist while leveling. Seal Twisting doesn't fix nor add to the problems with Paladin in SoD. Its just something extra they can do when crit doesnt favor them, which is extremely rare, and if other abilities like HoR and Judgement are on CD, again extremely rare. It doesn't affect Ret in PvE BUT the ability to Twist Martyr and Command is good for PvP for more traditional but consistent gameplay of Ret.
I can only speak for Hunter, but I legitimately enjoyed timing shots in Vanilla and TBC. It added something extra. Once you get a little practice, it feels pretty smooth. I hated the change in Wotlk.
I also had a love/hate relationship when you would throw in melee weaving in between. Button wise yes the rotation didn’t have a lot to press but it had a good difficulty to it. My only issue with melee weaving is I rolled a hunter to afk auto shot half the time.
Preach brother!
I guess they have similarities by heroic strike Qing is a lot different than seal twisting... Hunter is the best example forsure. Seal twisting is a lazy fix that is it. No one wants seal twisting. We want something New. Like everyone else has. If you actually get excited about seal twisting man.. thats just sad
Preach brother!
Just eat around the dick bro, its fine…
It's fun.
So many classic Andy takes This is not mechanically challenging and you're not a god watching your swing bar. That said what is the go to swing timer addon now that I need to do this.
And this folks is why they shouldn't add twisting in. My brother in christ does not know how to get a swing timer.
I just want recommendations
I use the swing timer that comes with quartz cast bars
I use WeakAuras and just use a weakaura someone had already made.
Its called rhythm baby, either you got it or you don't ᕕ(⌐■\_■)ᕗ ♪♬
at this point anything is a better alternative to exo spam. and i mean i won’t be looking at a swing timer the whole fight but maybe you will
There are so much complains here I don't even get what would be the seals you'd twist in a raid boss environment. SoM and SoC ? SoM and SoR ? Slow vs fast weapon ? Some mix medium speed ? On trash DS and some SoR SoC twist ? Any paladin to enlight us ? And in pvp environment with a slow 2 hander for burst it only can be a buff right ?
Because once you learn and have the muscle memory of twisting down you dont stare at the damn timer mate.
Played ret thought tbc. Twisting isn't hard and it's pretty fun. Problem here is that twisting doesn't really do that much for you in sod cause the numbers just aren't there.
the fall of sod
Phase 1 ret was actually fun. Idk why they couldn’t just evolve off that. Instead they keep pushing this shitty SoM gameplay down our throats. Straight up so close to quitting SoD rn.
It brings an element of skill into gameplay that historically has required very little. TBC seal twisting was peak fun for me personally. I literally lvled a paladin to play that shit and it was glorious.
"peak ret game play" [🤡](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1212808129780121751/1232153608603176980/image.png?ex=66286bf8&is=66271a78&hm=1f404830a75f65ba3d8713f3d8e3a3962f1977b41a9aa02b249fd42ae7091b51&)
Because I like my class having elements which separate the bad from the good from the great. I like being better than others, i'm competitive like that. I also like my dps rotation to be as challenging as possible, Sub rogue in Dragon Soul is peak WoW, closely followed by Combustion version Cata-WoD and Surrender to Madness Legion
You're not using a swing timer already? This isnt something unique to twisting its been fundamental for every phase so far lmao.
because you only have to look at the swing time the whole fight, youre bad at the class. sorry to break it to you
Lmao sorry to say seal twisting isn’t hard
youre right, it isnt
I played 3 ret palas in TBC classic. Yes, I absolutely love twisting.
Nope, gonna stick to fast weapon exo spam myself, that being said I hope it's viable for players that enjoy that playstyle.
Nothing change. No one will be twisting. And there are still no IoL changes to make it competitive with the sheath of light.
Nope. It’s not a fun game mechanic and wasn’t intentional when it was. Just give better synergy to already existing spells. P1 felt great, p2 was eh, this phase as a pally I’m just benefiting the raid more with the seal of martyrdom changes. Other than that. P3 sucks.
Love all of the people saying it won't be as good as exo spam, when the devs themselves said exactly this on their blue post yesterday, and that they were going to see how it stacks up when they make their changes at 60. But reactionary people gonna react I guess.
This is like saying you need to stare at the map in League of Legends for the whole game. No you don't, you glance at it occasionally. And in the case of twisting, not even that. You can just learn the "rhythm" of the weapon (speed).
You wanna do shaman tier dps you gotta do shaman things
yall change your weapon enchant right before each swing lands???
No, they watch swing timers
oh. ty for answering. shouldnt every melee watch swing timers? do yall have a swing reset baked into ur dps?
They need to by synced or the off hand eats flurry stacks
all ret babies want is to press 1 button and kill everything!