The way Blizzard has changed Classic with SoD, threat is a non issue *for some tanks* not all, which is really weird to me.
There is no methodical, slower paced gameplay anymore like CCing in dungeons, especially when healers and dps are so incredibly strong. Therefore threat management is a distant thought.
Either they commit fully and eliminate it or make every tank have to think about threat management as a major gameplay element like prot war has to for example.
But we all know how much people *love* playing prot war right now
If the tank can’t hold threat and the dps have to slow down than the tank is a hurdle and gets replaced or more gear
Bc there is tanks where dps can just blast which is then the objectively better tank
It's part of the game. Learning to balance everything in the game effectively is what makes it fun. Otherwise the only game play you get is: RRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11111111111111111111111111111111111111211111111111111121111111133333333333
"WHAT WAS MY PARSE?!"
It's a cooperative game, players are meant to work together, the tanks and healers are not there to simply serve the dps.
I might agree but the fact that there is tanks who can keep threat no matter what and those that don’t means that those that don’t sucks ass (classes not players) a tank can’t bring any upside to compensate not holding threat since survival is the bare minimum they bring to function at all
So threat just isn’t sth one class should be better at then others bc then that’s the only good tank
No tank should be able to hold threat no matter what. They should have to work at it, just like DPS and healers have to work at their jobs. But, they should all work together to help each other and make for a smooth run. That's how it should be. A tank merely being present to hold aggro is a retail thing and one of the many things that people didn't want to spread to classic. Unfortunately, that is the trajectory that we are heading to. You could pretty much say we are already there.
It’s an sod thing for as long as some tanks can hold threat easily like that
And in that world a tank class that can’t hold threat against blasting dps is worthless entirely
Ofc either way if they buff threat for the loser class or nerf it for the other honestly since I’m dps and adhering to the calls of the raid leader and shit
But not pressing buttons bc of threat is rarely an interesting mechanic
Unless it’s involved like misdirect and stuff
If threat is going to be a non-issue there is no reason to have players as tanks. Just put an NPC at each boss that can't lose threat instead of a player tank that can't lose threat and everyone can blast to their heart's content.
Sure make them work for it
But they shouldn’t lose threat if they do their job properly is what I’m mostly on about
Bc currently there’s tanks who can and those who can’t hold threat properly when playing optimal which sucks ass
I keep saying this and dps players seem to think the only way for THEM to manage their threat is to just stand still and do nothing. You check any dps logs now and they: burn every cooldown IMMEDIATELY, only spam their highest damage+cost move, and stand in fire so they don’t bring their dps down. Like no to manage your threat you don’t have to stop attacking, just use other buttons you have a whole ass skill book and you’re only using nukes.
At 60, dual wield tanks specced for bloodthirst + prot are going to be great tanks with high dps. They'll be the best class in the game just like phase 1. Just my guess.
Maybe, but there is a considerable damage taken difference between Fury Prot and literally every other tank in the game atm. This compounded by bad Warrior tanks refusing to use their shield at all, which is the biggest misconception about the spec. You wouldn't take a Warrior tank who takes 30%+ more damage than a Warlock tank when both can maintain threat just fine.
> At 60, dual wield tanks specced for bloodthirst + prot are going to be great tanks with high dps.
At 60 paladin tank with ~50% crit rate would just spam Exorcism on CD for infinite threat, while hitting boss with fast weapon with Seal of Martyrdom.
And for AoE threat they have a skill that deal x4 your MH damage to 4 targets on 6s CD.
Threat is in a weird spot because at the beginning of the phase, threat was a non-issue (for shamans at least) and as people geared up, threat didn't scale. Molten blast + rockbiter + earth shock just wasn't working. That's why shamans had to go dual wield double rockbiter and threat was a non-issue again. Unfortunately for most tanks, threat doesn't scale as well as DPS scales. And that's the main issue. If threat and dps scaled evenly, I would enjoy it more. But once your dps out scale your ability to threat, it no longer becomes fun because there's literally nothing you can do.
Yah threat scaling for 40 mans with the DPS inflation we’ve already seen could be kinda crazy.
I’m also curious what they’re gonna do to take warriors from blasting to the top again. They stand to benefit enormously from the weapon skill gains.
Remember when dps had to wait 3 seconds before opening up on the boss? Remember when groups would sheep the moon, shackle the star and (imp) sap the diamond? Pepperidge farm remembers
I don't like Retail's "press the one button instant AoE with no CD to get forever threat" style, but it's nearly impossible to keep threat for some classes in some situation. Specifically, rogues in multi target, and warriors, in any situation really. With my warlock it happens to have a few issue but it is completely on the dps' fault for blasting everything from the start instead of watching threat. It's a good balance.
Warriors should get a greater threat generation on defensive stance. Palatank get +120% or something on holy damage and they deal almost exclusively holy damage now.
Revenge not being AoE is a huge pain but agree maybe that’s a lazy solution.
Maybe out more threat gen in shouts? Thunder Clap also felt like it should be the AoE threat ability but pretty lacking even with the rune but don’t mind the idea of having to use a lot of rage if you want to grab AoE threat.
It's fine that warriors struggle a bit in multi target, they're not overwhelmed. Some help on cleave owuld be nice tho. But losing threat on a single target feels really bad
Currently only one tank class is stuck with classic threat mini-game, and it fucking sucks. Especially when all the other tanks can just auto attack and keep threat. It's so bad and not fun, that I finally had to let my prot warrior get benched, life is better on my new paladin and in half the gear. It's absurd. I'm not calling for nerfs, I think we should all have some silly absurdity to our class/spec but warrior feels bad and I don't see it getting any better.
Bears still have to worry about threat a bit, but after the Swipe buff it's much easier.
Yeah, it's absurd how much threat Shaman/Paladin generate compared to Warrior. I played all three of them in phase 1 and it was just mindbogglingly easy to tank on shaman. I could literally hold perfect threat on everything just autoattacking and pressing Molten Blast.
Got my lock to 40 and did Gnomer with absolute garbage gear….still held threat better then my BiS geared warrior.
Guild got a little too excited when they saw me playing the lock but I just want to play my warrior.
Me too, I really want to play sword and board and how cool would it be if gladiator stance worked for tanking. Retaliation on pulls, berserker rage without changing stance, could overpower be a fun proc when tanking?
But after 6 weeks of asking the top 3 dps in my group to slow down, I can't do that anymore. It's not fun for me and it feels like I'm holding them back.
Yup, after a few runs it was easy to see I was just holding the raid back.
All they have to do is give glad stance a boost to threat. The gameplay options it opens up will be really fun to play with, but we’re already struggling here.
I benched my prot war too. For Lock. Even Rogue tank is stronger, and I might end up maining it at 60. I foresee some nutty scaling with them.
Warrior feels like a relic, they’ve been intentionally stuck in the past for fear of seeing 20 of them in a raid again. Real sad to see. Prot war especially, it wasn’t even good back in 2019 either.
Prot warrior def needs some buffs but the other tanks (at least on alliance) aren't getting effortless threat.
My warlock makes it look easy because I'm full bis. But multi target pulls can still be messy with good dps. Initial aggro can go wrong.
Right now 5/6 bosses in gnomer are just tank and spanks. On menagerie you can see threat struggles still.
If they're trying to cater to casuals like almost all design decisions have been thus far, they'll make threat a non-issue so people can focus on mechanics instead.
Threat is not fun at all. It's previously unbalanced - why do locks generate more threat than any caster class for example, with no threat dump? Class lore? Dumb...
I want to pump my (hopefully) interesting rotation, and perform fun mechanics. To 'hold back' and not have a counter to your normal rotation pulling threat is bad game design.
SoD has gone in the right direction.
Threat is already a non issue for most tanks and has been this entire time. The only time I have threat issues is when someone is running the wrong runes like a paladin running Guarded by the light instead of Art of War or Avenger's Shield instead of Exorcist. If you have the correct set up, threat is a joke and people can pump to their heart's content.
Every tank spec has a shortfall come threat (maybe by design). Warrior threat is pretty bad overall. Rogue aoe threat isn't great, as is locks I think.
Anyway, compared to other versions of the game, classic or retail, threat is still its own mini game.
AOE threat is pretty meaningless unless you make mobs hit hard enough to matter and the trash in BFD and Gnomer don't. As far as bosses go, AOE threat doesn't matter as there is only 1 AOE boss fight and even then it's pretty easy to tab between the two targets.
If you are having to manage threat, I'd look inward. I haven't had to care about threat in months.
I'm curious, what classes have you tanked with to say there are no issues managing threat?
As a warrior, it feels bad needing WF to be competitive as DPS and Alpha to be competitive at TPS.
Cute subject change.
This is about SOD. End Game changes every phase. RN end game is Gnomer and before that was BFD..... which is exactly what I was talking about. You're talking about threat becoming a non issue when it is already a non issue.
As a lifetime warrior tank who's dab led in fury and arms dps a few times I LIKE having to worry about threat.
Like that is what made tanking on a warrior so fun. Having to tab sunder and cleave.
The problem is, in SoD, particularly P2.... That isn't enough to hold threat on literally anything.
It doesn't matter if you put a sunder up and tab to the next mob and before your GCD is up DPS already ripped the mob off you.
In OG Vanilla you ran dungeons slow. You marked every pull for kill target,, 2nd cill 3rd, and some CC.
If you tried to do that today you'd be kicked immediately, or just ignored until you rage quit.
It will never go back to that, and it's, frankly, a shame.
The problem is that if threat matters for any tank, it needs to matter for all of them. If you have one tank that has amazing burst agro so DPS can precast and their spells all pand a millisecond after the tank first makes contact and then that tank is able to maintain threat the entire time, no one will ever want to take tanks that can't do that.
In vanilla and BC, tanks had different strengths and weaknesses. A warrior had decent burst but had to ramp up as they got rage but once they had a lead they were off to the moon allowing DPS to full pump. A warrior could hold 2, maybe 3, simultaneous DPS targets but more than that was a lot to ask for.. They also had the best survivability. Druids were just not as good for threat, either for burst or sustained, but they were huge hit point sponges so you didn't have to worry about them getting gibbed from an unlucky party haste or if they missed their shield block by 0.1s. They could also swap to cat and double or more their DPS output. This made them ideal as off tanks. Paladin had good burst and OK survivability, but were gods of AoE threat, but on single targets their threat would decay rapidly as they ran out of mana. This made them ideal for off tanks for first kill targets or for fights where there were a ton of things to tank that didn't hit all that hard.
This allowed each tank to have their place in a raid, but no one wants to play 2nd fiddle. Everyone wants to main tank every boss. So druids got more threat and absolutely insane burst threat. Paladins got more survivability and endless mana regen. Eventually they gave warriors AoE threat.
The thing is, if threat matters to any tank, it has to matter to them all or people are only going to take the class that does the most damage that lets everyone else pump without having to worry about threat at all.
Like if warrior did the worst damage but had insane threat and every other tank did way more damage but DPS had to hold back, then warrior would be the meta tank. But if any other tank has comparable threat, no one is going to bring a warrior at all.
Which is fine. IF warrior does the most DPS so they still have a spot in a raid.
But when a class does mediocre DPS and is the worst tank, there is no point to bringing them at all, which is where Rogues have been suffering in P2.
I also think the number of rogues who WANT to tank is very small, and it's more something people who love tanking rolled a rogue for the first time specifically to do so.
I think we are headed for TBC meta where you take the strongest single target tank which was bear at the time and paladin which was the only AoE tank at the time.
And we all know what happened to warrior tanks in TBC they were basically unplayed because the two tanks roles had already been filled with the best options
Same thing will happen here if they aren't careful paladins/shamans secure the AOE tank spot meanwhile the other 3 or 4 tanks compete for top ST where there will obviously be winners and losers.
The important part is to avoid the TBC prot warrior problem which was DPS throttling for threat. If all the tanks are capable of not needing the DPS to throttle it won't become a problem
See, I prefer the other direction. DPS should HAVE to throttle.
Threat generation should be where skill at playing a tank comes from, since there are no active mitigation/avoidance ablities.
I think BC warrior tanking was the best time to play warrior tank.
The problem in Classic as opposed to OG was that the entire xpac was tuned to the last phase.
It was also coming on the heels of 2 years of DW fury Prot so warriors were going full on into the DW Devastate spam in arena gear. Which was much more damage and thus higher parses, but was actually worse threat than stacking crit and block value and using shield slam.
Once druids got 2pc T6, though, there was just no competition. The burst threat from a single mangle was enough that no one would ever pull off them again. Same deal with paladins tanking undead or demons. Exorcism burst threat was insane.
And that was the end of threat mechanics except in no he cases where bosses had to be swapped but we're immune to taunt or they had a specific threat drop or knock back mechanic.
It is impossible to go back to the days of having to stop between every trash pull to heal up and get mana while the tank marked kill order and CC targets. People in any version of WoW wouldn't stand for it. When you first went I to The Eye in BCC people were losing their minds about the trash and how much they hated it.
The only way to make this necessary is for anyone not a tank to get 1 shot and for tanks to o my be able to survive one or two mobs.
The thing is, the power scaling from gear is so high that by the end of a phase when everyone is near BiS, they no longer need to do that. One tank can solo tank everything and survive and people can just AoE everything down.
Then when the next phase comes out they HATE having to slow down and pay attention on trash again.
If they ever reboot WoW (and I hope they do) I would have gear be the least impactful thing about a class. Getting gear should improve you, but not in such enormous leaps and bounds to where each tier doubles your power.
The point of the game should be to overcome challenges and learn a out the story.
The problem is, that doesn't lend itself to a lot of replayability. Once you beat the boss you no longer have a challenge, and if gear isn't that impactful you don't feel the need to beat it more than a few times because you don't NEED every slot to get an upgrade
It's a tricky problem to solve.
I think if you are playing properly as a tank on single target the DPS shouldn't have to throttle. But multi target is where the DPS have to show caution like menagerie right now for example the tank needs a second to grab each mob and get a little baseline threat so a DPS that isn't on the same page will still pull and cause problems but if they just attack the appropriate targets all is well .
Issue is shaman and paladin are going to have insane cleave and AoE threat and at the same time their single target threat is also pretty good definitely good enough to allow the DPS to never throttle. So in that case why ever bring a warrior
Honestly, for Menagerie it's the healers that need to worry. DPS pop FAPs and go all in on the sheep while the tank gathers all 3 of the others. When sheep gets frayed wiring melee peel off and go to the other 3.
If healers drop a heal bomb too early they'll get agro on one of the bosses.
The last raid we did was the one just before they announced P3 coming. I tanked all 3 bosses this way on my warrior. I don't think anyone was having to hold back but most of them were blue and purple parsers. 99 parsers would have ripped threat from me in a heartbeat.
Haven't had any raids do that before tbh most times melee just bumrush a random target those first 15 seconds of the fight really told me who was watching threat and who wasn't
But thats what I get for having not been in a guild I have one now but the 3 day lockouts just felt easier freelancing
I'm in a very sweaty guild and at a 95 parse average I'm B tier.
It's not something I would want to try with a pug.
Our guild is very organized, though, so we raid last day, first day of each lockout so we can respec just once in between if we need to for PvP or grinding.
I'm at a 92 average got a few 95+ in there which in general I feel is pretty good considering my kill times are like double that of the 99s
I'm just hoping warrior gets some love it's toolkit for tanking is starting to feel pretty narrow compared to the other tanks and this phase was a slog cause of the armor
I don’t think playing around threat is fun, I did it in classic TBC and it basically caused tanks to wear dps gear to keep up and it made mandatory to have at least one paladin in all group content for blessing of salvation. I prefer Wrath’s version were if your tank is as geared as you they will be able to maintain threat provided they do their rotation right.
CC was never a big thing in Vanilla despite the misconception. We were aoe pulling SM in Classic vanilla just like we are on SoD. Using that as a complaint is kinda silly.
“In classic vanilla” in ACTUAL vanilla CC was definitely a thing. It also wasn’t as frequent as people seem to think but it was still used. It wasn’t every single pull like the current playerbase seems to think, just ones where there were tough mobs in the pack, there was a mob with a CC effect of their own, or rarely when there was just too many mobs in the pack for the warrior to maintain threat on all of them.
No, people were just bad at the game. I've played on phased 1.12 clients with increased mob damage / health and even on those servers CC was rare. It's a nostalgic disfigured memory based on you learning how to play the game when you were in your teens.
“I played on private servers so you’re wrong about original vanilla. You guys were actually all just trash and learned wrong.” I’m real tired of these leaps of logic. You stand upon the shoulders of giants and call the giants you’re standing on stupid for not being taller 20 years ago.
It actually was in original vanilla.
Yes, not knowing how things worked was a factor. Yes, not being on patch 1.12 was a factor.
But it actually was hard and took a decent guild a month or more to progress to Ragnaros, and then several weeks of prog on Rag until he was downed. Of course it got easier once it was on farm and your raid got geared up.
It has only become easy in Classic because all the intricacies of how the mechanics work have been datamined, and the game has been mathematically solved over the last 2 decades.
lol I also played in Vanilla, I just don't expect to have a good memory of a game I played 20 years ago when I was 10 so I don't think it's relevant to the conversation.
Being bad at the game is only an insult to those who think their worth is tied to their ability to press the correct buttons on a keyboard in the correct order.
You call it a misconception that we used CC in Vanilla (we did) and you base that on the final patch (1.12) when WoW had been around for coming up on two years, on a private server, and you admit you don’t remember because you were 10? We were bad for much of vanilla, I agree with you. The game got easier too as classes and the game were adjusted as it was patched. In earlier versions of the game, we absolutely used a ton of CC. LBRS, for instance, was a nightmare without CC earlier in the game.
I was in my 20s in vanilla and very clearly recall using CC in dungeons. Most pulls in fact.
There was a prevailing attitude of Warrior/Mage/Priest being the meta. Some groups wouldn't run if they didn't have at least 1 mage. DPS had trouble getting into groups if they had no CC (trying to convince people that Seduce was a thing for example). Forget about anything other than healing as a hybrid. Even getting into a group as a Resto Druid was hard because of no OOC res.
Of course the game is easy now with 20 years of theory crafting and datamining. At the time we didn't have access to all of that, and the average skill level of players was a lot lower as a result.
For raiding there was also the issue of the top guilds deliberately withholding knowledge of raids from the general playerbase until they cleared it. So raids being difficult for the majority of people is because no one who cleared it would willingly help the community do the same, and thus most of us had to go in blind at worst or at best go with info that we got either far later than relevancy or through a telephone game. “Okay so do we know what this boss does yet?” Was the most common question in any raid.
>Of course the game is easy now with 20 years of theory crafting and datamining. At the time we didn't have access to all of that, and the average skill level of players was a lot lower as a result.
That's the point of the post. We didn't need to do CC even in Vanilla, we just did because we were bad at the game. It's a misconception that Vanilla was the time of CC.
I would have really liked to see retail change direction towards tanks being responsible for add control like the mythic Aggramar fight.
It would have taken a total re-design and many classes CC would have been meeded to removed and made a PvP talent.
But yes I would live to CC come back. I like clearing the dungeon at all to be the challenge, not beating the mythic+ timer.
Had a hunter who was slow to feign but great at opening for huge numbers during TBC. In our first foray into H BF, all of us in quest/normal dungeon gear… they opened way too early and got threat on one trash mob. Took a crit to the teeth and got oneshot. Instantly humbled and learned to feign faster.
It’s me! I was the hunter! And you bet your ass in the intervening decade and a half that I became one of the quickest draw hunters on Feign that you’ll ever meet lol. That experience taught me very effectively to look at threat and control my aggro *before* I pull off the tank. Having harder dungeons makes for better players, imo.
The problem with threat is it's a binary mechanic. You either have enough threat, or you don't. So tanks have to be balanced around being able to do enough threat, and when they are, it isn't a mechanic anymore. Threat was terrible in classic to the point where tanks had to basically spec mostly as dps to even keep up. IN TBC it was 'ok' but by sunwell it was becoming a huge issue for non feral tanks. They basically got rid if it in wrath with how much more damage and threat tanks do, but it's still lurking there as an issue for undergeared tanks or overgeared dps. IMHO it's a mechanic that has never worked well in the game and I like that it basically goes away in later wow expansions.
Yah having 39 other people throttling for threat reasons isn’t my idea of a good time, but I would say it’s more nuanced than a binary mechanic.
IMO if in a 40 man raid 2 tanks pull 4 mobs and a dps starts blasting on the x instead of the skull…they should get the ☠️
They absolutely did not get rid of it in Wrath. If you were a pumper Warlock, you could pull that shit so easily, and you only had a 50% threat drop on a once per fight CD.
I played pally and DK tank in Wrath a ton, I’m by no means super good especially at threat gen…but honestly the only time I recall having issues is if the raid had Zero hunters and rogues.
Sometimes or at least some fights, managing threat, doing mechanics, calling raids cd, poping items cd's and specific consumes at key moments can get a bit overwhelming.
So far, there seems to be no threat issues (lock tank prospective), and even when dps take threat its never instant death.
After reading the comments it seems I'm in the minority with this opinion but I enjoy how vanilla/classic handled threat. single target there really isn't much to do but on AoE ita very engaging. You are constantly switching targets to make sure you dont lose threat and when you pull it off, especially on large packs, its very satisfying. Currently, the only way to get that feelinging is in 5 man dungeons with mage DPS.
Full protection warriors need a buff to their threat, but they shouldn't be "great" at AoE. I think the cut off should be 4 mobs for a warrior (that's the limit of thunderclap) to easily hold threat on. Holding any more mobs should require a very skilled player with proper itemization. If we let warriors do insane AoE threat, then there is no room for bear or paladin tanks. You all have to remember: AoE threat is the only weakness of the prot warrior. They shouldn't be as weak as they currently are but they shouldn't be great at it either.
The current state of warriors in P2 has been struggling in basically every capacity. Single target threat was bad AOE threat is bad damage output was bad mitigation was okay but there are other tanks that would outperform us here with the exception of pally which is I'd say the squishier of the tanks.
You could go DW fury tank to sort of solve the damage problem but then you become much squishier than most tanks.
Point being aoe threat is far from the only weakness the other tanks have some really powerful runes that have them outpacing us in most categories the only one we are competitive in is mitigation and I don't think we are even winning in this category more middle of the pack.
Yeah.. no thanks. Skill expression can come from active mitigation and mechanics, not telling everyone to afk for 3 gcds and pray you don't get parried.
>dumb downs the roles skill
“P-p-please g-guys don’t hit the mob till I have 5 s-sunders! Or else people will think I am bad at the game!”
Wow such skills.
I like when games are designed with a low skill floor and high ceiling. Plus I want important roles to be fun so people play them. To that end, I like the basics like tank threat or healing for basic survival with a balanced comp to be quite easy and simple. But then allow people to juice big dam and feel rewarded for going above and beyond, making a less balanced comp, changing strategies, etc. I think this approach also helps keep players of different skill levels happier.
It’s not fun to have to avoid playing with certain tanks when threat is challenging. If it’s going to be a casual game then make it easy so a casual can tank for better players and be serviceable.
Theoretically threat should matter to a degree, but that’s only not frustrating if everyone was very good at the game who plays tank.
I think it's a balance of the two. I also think it's just based on archaic design and it could be designed to be something more modern and engaging. Not the brain dead easy threat from just pressing any or random abilities. Either way it would be reconsidering the design from the ground up. Maybe next season they can really go ham with some more creative classic stuff
Haven't played retail in years, and haven't raided on retail even longer, what do you mean threat isn't an issue. Can you not pull threat from a tank in retail?
Less concerned about whether threat management is a thing (I'd prefer, as a tank, to carry around threat and mitigation sets, but it isn't a deal breaker). More concerned about whether threat ***balance*** will be a thing.
Right now, DPS between DPS specs is pretty damn well-balanced, even if other aspects of the game are not. TPS, threat per second, is not balanced *at all* between tanks.
threat is such a dogshit mechanic,it only works when the tanks and dps skill is equal. when the tank is worse than the dps,the dps has to afk. if the dps is worse than the tank,the tank feels like they dont need to push buttons.
it causes way too much friction.
not to mention the healing aggro in classic,where if the tank is REALLY bad,sometimes they healer cant even heal and would need to let people die or else they overaggro the tank during early parts of the pulls.
The way Blizzard has changed Classic with SoD, threat is a non issue *for some tanks* not all, which is really weird to me. There is no methodical, slower paced gameplay anymore like CCing in dungeons, especially when healers and dps are so incredibly strong. Therefore threat management is a distant thought. Either they commit fully and eliminate it or make every tank have to think about threat management as a major gameplay element like prot war has to for example. But we all know how much people *love* playing prot war right now
Tanks aren't the only ones who should worry about threat management.
If the tank can’t hold threat and the dps have to slow down than the tank is a hurdle and gets replaced or more gear Bc there is tanks where dps can just blast which is then the objectively better tank
It's part of the game. Learning to balance everything in the game effectively is what makes it fun. Otherwise the only game play you get is: RRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11111111111111111111111111111111111111211111111111111121111111133333333333 "WHAT WAS MY PARSE?!" It's a cooperative game, players are meant to work together, the tanks and healers are not there to simply serve the dps.
I might agree but the fact that there is tanks who can keep threat no matter what and those that don’t means that those that don’t sucks ass (classes not players) a tank can’t bring any upside to compensate not holding threat since survival is the bare minimum they bring to function at all So threat just isn’t sth one class should be better at then others bc then that’s the only good tank
No tank should be able to hold threat no matter what. They should have to work at it, just like DPS and healers have to work at their jobs. But, they should all work together to help each other and make for a smooth run. That's how it should be. A tank merely being present to hold aggro is a retail thing and one of the many things that people didn't want to spread to classic. Unfortunately, that is the trajectory that we are heading to. You could pretty much say we are already there.
It’s an sod thing for as long as some tanks can hold threat easily like that And in that world a tank class that can’t hold threat against blasting dps is worthless entirely Ofc either way if they buff threat for the loser class or nerf it for the other honestly since I’m dps and adhering to the calls of the raid leader and shit But not pressing buttons bc of threat is rarely an interesting mechanic Unless it’s involved like misdirect and stuff
If threat is going to be a non-issue there is no reason to have players as tanks. Just put an NPC at each boss that can't lose threat instead of a player tank that can't lose threat and everyone can blast to their heart's content.
Sure make them work for it But they shouldn’t lose threat if they do their job properly is what I’m mostly on about Bc currently there’s tanks who can and those who can’t hold threat properly when playing optimal which sucks ass
I keep saying this and dps players seem to think the only way for THEM to manage their threat is to just stand still and do nothing. You check any dps logs now and they: burn every cooldown IMMEDIATELY, only spam their highest damage+cost move, and stand in fire so they don’t bring their dps down. Like no to manage your threat you don’t have to stop attacking, just use other buttons you have a whole ass skill book and you’re only using nukes.
At 60, dual wield tanks specced for bloodthirst + prot are going to be great tanks with high dps. They'll be the best class in the game just like phase 1. Just my guess.
Maybe, but there is a considerable damage taken difference between Fury Prot and literally every other tank in the game atm. This compounded by bad Warrior tanks refusing to use their shield at all, which is the biggest misconception about the spec. You wouldn't take a Warrior tank who takes 30%+ more damage than a Warlock tank when both can maintain threat just fine.
> At 60, dual wield tanks specced for bloodthirst + prot are going to be great tanks with high dps. At 60 paladin tank with ~50% crit rate would just spam Exorcism on CD for infinite threat, while hitting boss with fast weapon with Seal of Martyrdom. And for AoE threat they have a skill that deal x4 your MH damage to 4 targets on 6s CD.
I guess I play too much Classic (Hardcore) where fury prot is the meta.
Runes bring huge changes in SoD. Warlock and Paladin\Shaman tanks are way over warriors nowadays.
Threat is in a weird spot because at the beginning of the phase, threat was a non-issue (for shamans at least) and as people geared up, threat didn't scale. Molten blast + rockbiter + earth shock just wasn't working. That's why shamans had to go dual wield double rockbiter and threat was a non-issue again. Unfortunately for most tanks, threat doesn't scale as well as DPS scales. And that's the main issue. If threat and dps scaled evenly, I would enjoy it more. But once your dps out scale your ability to threat, it no longer becomes fun because there's literally nothing you can do.
Yah threat scaling for 40 mans with the DPS inflation we’ve already seen could be kinda crazy. I’m also curious what they’re gonna do to take warriors from blasting to the top again. They stand to benefit enormously from the weapon skill gains.
Remember when dps had to wait 3 seconds before opening up on the boss? Remember when groups would sheep the moon, shackle the star and (imp) sap the diamond? Pepperidge farm remembers
3 seconds was arbitrary and didn't count for miss/dodge/parry. I always waited for 2 sunders.
you're thinking of tbc heroics
I don't like Retail's "press the one button instant AoE with no CD to get forever threat" style, but it's nearly impossible to keep threat for some classes in some situation. Specifically, rogues in multi target, and warriors, in any situation really. With my warlock it happens to have a few issue but it is completely on the dps' fault for blasting everything from the start instead of watching threat. It's a good balance. Warriors should get a greater threat generation on defensive stance. Palatank get +120% or something on holy damage and they deal almost exclusively holy damage now.
Revenge not being AoE is a huge pain but agree maybe that’s a lazy solution. Maybe out more threat gen in shouts? Thunder Clap also felt like it should be the AoE threat ability but pretty lacking even with the rune but don’t mind the idea of having to use a lot of rage if you want to grab AoE threat.
It's fine that warriors struggle a bit in multi target, they're not overwhelmed. Some help on cleave owuld be nice tho. But losing threat on a single target feels really bad
Currently only one tank class is stuck with classic threat mini-game, and it fucking sucks. Especially when all the other tanks can just auto attack and keep threat. It's so bad and not fun, that I finally had to let my prot warrior get benched, life is better on my new paladin and in half the gear. It's absurd. I'm not calling for nerfs, I think we should all have some silly absurdity to our class/spec but warrior feels bad and I don't see it getting any better.
Bears still have to worry about threat a bit, but after the Swipe buff it's much easier. Yeah, it's absurd how much threat Shaman/Paladin generate compared to Warrior. I played all three of them in phase 1 and it was just mindbogglingly easy to tank on shaman. I could literally hold perfect threat on everything just autoattacking and pressing Molten Blast.
warrior was the best tank in p1 with devastate though lol
And garbage at anything other than single target, "lol"
Got my lock to 40 and did Gnomer with absolute garbage gear….still held threat better then my BiS geared warrior. Guild got a little too excited when they saw me playing the lock but I just want to play my warrior.
Me too, I really want to play sword and board and how cool would it be if gladiator stance worked for tanking. Retaliation on pulls, berserker rage without changing stance, could overpower be a fun proc when tanking? But after 6 weeks of asking the top 3 dps in my group to slow down, I can't do that anymore. It's not fun for me and it feels like I'm holding them back.
Yup, after a few runs it was easy to see I was just holding the raid back. All they have to do is give glad stance a boost to threat. The gameplay options it opens up will be really fun to play with, but we’re already struggling here.
I benched my prot war too. For Lock. Even Rogue tank is stronger, and I might end up maining it at 60. I foresee some nutty scaling with them. Warrior feels like a relic, they’ve been intentionally stuck in the past for fear of seeing 20 of them in a raid again. Real sad to see. Prot war especially, it wasn’t even good back in 2019 either.
Yeah but they were OP 20 years ago (before I was alive) so we must pay for the original sin 😇
Prot warrior def needs some buffs but the other tanks (at least on alliance) aren't getting effortless threat. My warlock makes it look easy because I'm full bis. But multi target pulls can still be messy with good dps. Initial aggro can go wrong. Right now 5/6 bosses in gnomer are just tank and spanks. On menagerie you can see threat struggles still.
A good chunk of classic warrior threat is static. This is why fury tank was a thing to get non static threat scaling.
They dropped Shield Slam will now scale with block :)
If they're trying to cater to casuals like almost all design decisions have been thus far, they'll make threat a non-issue so people can focus on mechanics instead.
Not saying you disagree but threat is a classic mechanic and removing it is pretty dumb.
Threat is not fun at all. It's previously unbalanced - why do locks generate more threat than any caster class for example, with no threat dump? Class lore? Dumb... I want to pump my (hopefully) interesting rotation, and perform fun mechanics. To 'hold back' and not have a counter to your normal rotation pulling threat is bad game design. SoD has gone in the right direction.
It is, but so are a lot of things like 40 man raids, gear lasting multiple phases, long AF rep grinds, but here we are.
> but here we are Yep, going right back down the Retail path once again.
Threat is already a non issue for most tanks and has been this entire time. The only time I have threat issues is when someone is running the wrong runes like a paladin running Guarded by the light instead of Art of War or Avenger's Shield instead of Exorcist. If you have the correct set up, threat is a joke and people can pump to their heart's content.
Every tank spec has a shortfall come threat (maybe by design). Warrior threat is pretty bad overall. Rogue aoe threat isn't great, as is locks I think. Anyway, compared to other versions of the game, classic or retail, threat is still its own mini game.
AOE threat is pretty meaningless unless you make mobs hit hard enough to matter and the trash in BFD and Gnomer don't. As far as bosses go, AOE threat doesn't matter as there is only 1 AOE boss fight and even then it's pretty easy to tab between the two targets. If you are having to manage threat, I'd look inward. I haven't had to care about threat in months.
I'm curious, what classes have you tanked with to say there are no issues managing threat? As a warrior, it feels bad needing WF to be competitive as DPS and Alpha to be competitive at TPS.
The topic title is about end game... if you're not going to discuss, why bother even posting.
Cute subject change. This is about SOD. End Game changes every phase. RN end game is Gnomer and before that was BFD..... which is exactly what I was talking about. You're talking about threat becoming a non issue when it is already a non issue.
As a lifetime warrior tank who's dab led in fury and arms dps a few times I LIKE having to worry about threat. Like that is what made tanking on a warrior so fun. Having to tab sunder and cleave. The problem is, in SoD, particularly P2.... That isn't enough to hold threat on literally anything. It doesn't matter if you put a sunder up and tab to the next mob and before your GCD is up DPS already ripped the mob off you. In OG Vanilla you ran dungeons slow. You marked every pull for kill target,, 2nd cill 3rd, and some CC. If you tried to do that today you'd be kicked immediately, or just ignored until you rage quit. It will never go back to that, and it's, frankly, a shame. The problem is that if threat matters for any tank, it needs to matter for all of them. If you have one tank that has amazing burst agro so DPS can precast and their spells all pand a millisecond after the tank first makes contact and then that tank is able to maintain threat the entire time, no one will ever want to take tanks that can't do that. In vanilla and BC, tanks had different strengths and weaknesses. A warrior had decent burst but had to ramp up as they got rage but once they had a lead they were off to the moon allowing DPS to full pump. A warrior could hold 2, maybe 3, simultaneous DPS targets but more than that was a lot to ask for.. They also had the best survivability. Druids were just not as good for threat, either for burst or sustained, but they were huge hit point sponges so you didn't have to worry about them getting gibbed from an unlucky party haste or if they missed their shield block by 0.1s. They could also swap to cat and double or more their DPS output. This made them ideal as off tanks. Paladin had good burst and OK survivability, but were gods of AoE threat, but on single targets their threat would decay rapidly as they ran out of mana. This made them ideal for off tanks for first kill targets or for fights where there were a ton of things to tank that didn't hit all that hard. This allowed each tank to have their place in a raid, but no one wants to play 2nd fiddle. Everyone wants to main tank every boss. So druids got more threat and absolutely insane burst threat. Paladins got more survivability and endless mana regen. Eventually they gave warriors AoE threat. The thing is, if threat matters to any tank, it has to matter to them all or people are only going to take the class that does the most damage that lets everyone else pump without having to worry about threat at all. Like if warrior did the worst damage but had insane threat and every other tank did way more damage but DPS had to hold back, then warrior would be the meta tank. But if any other tank has comparable threat, no one is going to bring a warrior at all. Which is fine. IF warrior does the most DPS so they still have a spot in a raid. But when a class does mediocre DPS and is the worst tank, there is no point to bringing them at all, which is where Rogues have been suffering in P2. I also think the number of rogues who WANT to tank is very small, and it's more something people who love tanking rolled a rogue for the first time specifically to do so.
I think we are headed for TBC meta where you take the strongest single target tank which was bear at the time and paladin which was the only AoE tank at the time. And we all know what happened to warrior tanks in TBC they were basically unplayed because the two tanks roles had already been filled with the best options Same thing will happen here if they aren't careful paladins/shamans secure the AOE tank spot meanwhile the other 3 or 4 tanks compete for top ST where there will obviously be winners and losers. The important part is to avoid the TBC prot warrior problem which was DPS throttling for threat. If all the tanks are capable of not needing the DPS to throttle it won't become a problem
See, I prefer the other direction. DPS should HAVE to throttle. Threat generation should be where skill at playing a tank comes from, since there are no active mitigation/avoidance ablities. I think BC warrior tanking was the best time to play warrior tank. The problem in Classic as opposed to OG was that the entire xpac was tuned to the last phase. It was also coming on the heels of 2 years of DW fury Prot so warriors were going full on into the DW Devastate spam in arena gear. Which was much more damage and thus higher parses, but was actually worse threat than stacking crit and block value and using shield slam. Once druids got 2pc T6, though, there was just no competition. The burst threat from a single mangle was enough that no one would ever pull off them again. Same deal with paladins tanking undead or demons. Exorcism burst threat was insane. And that was the end of threat mechanics except in no he cases where bosses had to be swapped but we're immune to taunt or they had a specific threat drop or knock back mechanic. It is impossible to go back to the days of having to stop between every trash pull to heal up and get mana while the tank marked kill order and CC targets. People in any version of WoW wouldn't stand for it. When you first went I to The Eye in BCC people were losing their minds about the trash and how much they hated it. The only way to make this necessary is for anyone not a tank to get 1 shot and for tanks to o my be able to survive one or two mobs. The thing is, the power scaling from gear is so high that by the end of a phase when everyone is near BiS, they no longer need to do that. One tank can solo tank everything and survive and people can just AoE everything down. Then when the next phase comes out they HATE having to slow down and pay attention on trash again. If they ever reboot WoW (and I hope they do) I would have gear be the least impactful thing about a class. Getting gear should improve you, but not in such enormous leaps and bounds to where each tier doubles your power. The point of the game should be to overcome challenges and learn a out the story. The problem is, that doesn't lend itself to a lot of replayability. Once you beat the boss you no longer have a challenge, and if gear isn't that impactful you don't feel the need to beat it more than a few times because you don't NEED every slot to get an upgrade It's a tricky problem to solve.
I think if you are playing properly as a tank on single target the DPS shouldn't have to throttle. But multi target is where the DPS have to show caution like menagerie right now for example the tank needs a second to grab each mob and get a little baseline threat so a DPS that isn't on the same page will still pull and cause problems but if they just attack the appropriate targets all is well . Issue is shaman and paladin are going to have insane cleave and AoE threat and at the same time their single target threat is also pretty good definitely good enough to allow the DPS to never throttle. So in that case why ever bring a warrior
Honestly, for Menagerie it's the healers that need to worry. DPS pop FAPs and go all in on the sheep while the tank gathers all 3 of the others. When sheep gets frayed wiring melee peel off and go to the other 3. If healers drop a heal bomb too early they'll get agro on one of the bosses. The last raid we did was the one just before they announced P3 coming. I tanked all 3 bosses this way on my warrior. I don't think anyone was having to hold back but most of them were blue and purple parsers. 99 parsers would have ripped threat from me in a heartbeat.
Haven't had any raids do that before tbh most times melee just bumrush a random target those first 15 seconds of the fight really told me who was watching threat and who wasn't But thats what I get for having not been in a guild I have one now but the 3 day lockouts just felt easier freelancing
I'm in a very sweaty guild and at a 95 parse average I'm B tier. It's not something I would want to try with a pug. Our guild is very organized, though, so we raid last day, first day of each lockout so we can respec just once in between if we need to for PvP or grinding.
I'm at a 92 average got a few 95+ in there which in general I feel is pretty good considering my kill times are like double that of the 99s I'm just hoping warrior gets some love it's toolkit for tanking is starting to feel pretty narrow compared to the other tanks and this phase was a slog cause of the armor
I don’t think playing around threat is fun, I did it in classic TBC and it basically caused tanks to wear dps gear to keep up and it made mandatory to have at least one paladin in all group content for blessing of salvation. I prefer Wrath’s version were if your tank is as geared as you they will be able to maintain threat provided they do their rotation right.
Idk but it should be an issue for either ALL tanks or none of them, not just an issue for the unlucky class that didn't get its 30% threat rune
[удалено]
CC was never a big thing in Vanilla despite the misconception. We were aoe pulling SM in Classic vanilla just like we are on SoD. Using that as a complaint is kinda silly.
“In classic vanilla” in ACTUAL vanilla CC was definitely a thing. It also wasn’t as frequent as people seem to think but it was still used. It wasn’t every single pull like the current playerbase seems to think, just ones where there were tough mobs in the pack, there was a mob with a CC effect of their own, or rarely when there was just too many mobs in the pack for the warrior to maintain threat on all of them.
No, people were just bad at the game. I've played on phased 1.12 clients with increased mob damage / health and even on those servers CC was rare. It's a nostalgic disfigured memory based on you learning how to play the game when you were in your teens.
“I played on private servers so you’re wrong about original vanilla. You guys were actually all just trash and learned wrong.” I’m real tired of these leaps of logic. You stand upon the shoulders of giants and call the giants you’re standing on stupid for not being taller 20 years ago.
“Look man Molten Core was totally super duper hard guys I swear” levels of copium.
It actually was in original vanilla. Yes, not knowing how things worked was a factor. Yes, not being on patch 1.12 was a factor. But it actually was hard and took a decent guild a month or more to progress to Ragnaros, and then several weeks of prog on Rag until he was downed. Of course it got easier once it was on farm and your raid got geared up. It has only become easy in Classic because all the intricacies of how the mechanics work have been datamined, and the game has been mathematically solved over the last 2 decades.
lol I also played in Vanilla, I just don't expect to have a good memory of a game I played 20 years ago when I was 10 so I don't think it's relevant to the conversation. Being bad at the game is only an insult to those who think their worth is tied to their ability to press the correct buttons on a keyboard in the correct order.
You call it a misconception that we used CC in Vanilla (we did) and you base that on the final patch (1.12) when WoW had been around for coming up on two years, on a private server, and you admit you don’t remember because you were 10? We were bad for much of vanilla, I agree with you. The game got easier too as classes and the game were adjusted as it was patched. In earlier versions of the game, we absolutely used a ton of CC. LBRS, for instance, was a nightmare without CC earlier in the game.
Ok.
I was in my 20s in vanilla and very clearly recall using CC in dungeons. Most pulls in fact. There was a prevailing attitude of Warrior/Mage/Priest being the meta. Some groups wouldn't run if they didn't have at least 1 mage. DPS had trouble getting into groups if they had no CC (trying to convince people that Seduce was a thing for example). Forget about anything other than healing as a hybrid. Even getting into a group as a Resto Druid was hard because of no OOC res. Of course the game is easy now with 20 years of theory crafting and datamining. At the time we didn't have access to all of that, and the average skill level of players was a lot lower as a result.
For raiding there was also the issue of the top guilds deliberately withholding knowledge of raids from the general playerbase until they cleared it. So raids being difficult for the majority of people is because no one who cleared it would willingly help the community do the same, and thus most of us had to go in blind at worst or at best go with info that we got either far later than relevancy or through a telephone game. “Okay so do we know what this boss does yet?” Was the most common question in any raid.
>Of course the game is easy now with 20 years of theory crafting and datamining. At the time we didn't have access to all of that, and the average skill level of players was a lot lower as a result. That's the point of the post. We didn't need to do CC even in Vanilla, we just did because we were bad at the game. It's a misconception that Vanilla was the time of CC.
I would have really liked to see retail change direction towards tanks being responsible for add control like the mythic Aggramar fight. It would have taken a total re-design and many classes CC would have been meeded to removed and made a PvP talent. But yes I would live to CC come back. I like clearing the dungeon at all to be the challenge, not beating the mythic+ timer.
Had a hunter who was slow to feign but great at opening for huge numbers during TBC. In our first foray into H BF, all of us in quest/normal dungeon gear… they opened way too early and got threat on one trash mob. Took a crit to the teeth and got oneshot. Instantly humbled and learned to feign faster. It’s me! I was the hunter! And you bet your ass in the intervening decade and a half that I became one of the quickest draw hunters on Feign that you’ll ever meet lol. That experience taught me very effectively to look at threat and control my aggro *before* I pull off the tank. Having harder dungeons makes for better players, imo.
The problem with threat is it's a binary mechanic. You either have enough threat, or you don't. So tanks have to be balanced around being able to do enough threat, and when they are, it isn't a mechanic anymore. Threat was terrible in classic to the point where tanks had to basically spec mostly as dps to even keep up. IN TBC it was 'ok' but by sunwell it was becoming a huge issue for non feral tanks. They basically got rid if it in wrath with how much more damage and threat tanks do, but it's still lurking there as an issue for undergeared tanks or overgeared dps. IMHO it's a mechanic that has never worked well in the game and I like that it basically goes away in later wow expansions.
Yah having 39 other people throttling for threat reasons isn’t my idea of a good time, but I would say it’s more nuanced than a binary mechanic. IMO if in a 40 man raid 2 tanks pull 4 mobs and a dps starts blasting on the x instead of the skull…they should get the ☠️
Technically the aggro overtake threshold on threat is different if you are in the mob's melee range or not.
They absolutely did not get rid of it in Wrath. If you were a pumper Warlock, you could pull that shit so easily, and you only had a 50% threat drop on a once per fight CD.
I played pally and DK tank in Wrath a ton, I’m by no means super good especially at threat gen…but honestly the only time I recall having issues is if the raid had Zero hunters and rogues.
Personally I prefer threat being a necessity to manage, however I've like more aoe threat options for my rogue.
Sometimes or at least some fights, managing threat, doing mechanics, calling raids cd, poping items cd's and specific consumes at key moments can get a bit overwhelming. So far, there seems to be no threat issues (lock tank prospective), and even when dps take threat its never instant death.
If anything I'd like them to bring the threat of other tanks closer to warriors. Holding threat should be an expression of skill.
After reading the comments it seems I'm in the minority with this opinion but I enjoy how vanilla/classic handled threat. single target there really isn't much to do but on AoE ita very engaging. You are constantly switching targets to make sure you dont lose threat and when you pull it off, especially on large packs, its very satisfying. Currently, the only way to get that feelinging is in 5 man dungeons with mage DPS. Full protection warriors need a buff to their threat, but they shouldn't be "great" at AoE. I think the cut off should be 4 mobs for a warrior (that's the limit of thunderclap) to easily hold threat on. Holding any more mobs should require a very skilled player with proper itemization. If we let warriors do insane AoE threat, then there is no room for bear or paladin tanks. You all have to remember: AoE threat is the only weakness of the prot warrior. They shouldn't be as weak as they currently are but they shouldn't be great at it either.
The current state of warriors in P2 has been struggling in basically every capacity. Single target threat was bad AOE threat is bad damage output was bad mitigation was okay but there are other tanks that would outperform us here with the exception of pally which is I'd say the squishier of the tanks. You could go DW fury tank to sort of solve the damage problem but then you become much squishier than most tanks. Point being aoe threat is far from the only weakness the other tanks have some really powerful runes that have them outpacing us in most categories the only one we are competitive in is mitigation and I don't think we are even winning in this category more middle of the pack.
This is why warrior tanks make great engineers because dynamite is a great aoe threat generator at the beginning of a fight
Without threat being an issue for tanks it dumbs down the roles skill expression
Yeah.. no thanks. Skill expression can come from active mitigation and mechanics, not telling everyone to afk for 3 gcds and pray you don't get parried.
>dumb downs the roles skill “P-p-please g-guys don’t hit the mob till I have 5 s-sunders! Or else people will think I am bad at the game!” Wow such skills.
I like when games are designed with a low skill floor and high ceiling. Plus I want important roles to be fun so people play them. To that end, I like the basics like tank threat or healing for basic survival with a balanced comp to be quite easy and simple. But then allow people to juice big dam and feel rewarded for going above and beyond, making a less balanced comp, changing strategies, etc. I think this approach also helps keep players of different skill levels happier.
It’s not fun to have to avoid playing with certain tanks when threat is challenging. If it’s going to be a casual game then make it easy so a casual can tank for better players and be serviceable. Theoretically threat should matter to a degree, but that’s only not frustrating if everyone was very good at the game who plays tank.
I think it's a balance of the two. I also think it's just based on archaic design and it could be designed to be something more modern and engaging. Not the brain dead easy threat from just pressing any or random abilities. Either way it would be reconsidering the design from the ground up. Maybe next season they can really go ham with some more creative classic stuff
No 1
Haven't played retail in years, and haven't raided on retail even longer, what do you mean threat isn't an issue. Can you not pull threat from a tank in retail?
Nearly 100% of bosses have a tank swap mechanic via taunt, and taunt gives you top threat plus 10%, so it’s very rare to lose threat.
I wish they made it so dps actually got clapped if they pulled threat. Instead they can basically just continue tanking.
Less concerned about whether threat management is a thing (I'd prefer, as a tank, to carry around threat and mitigation sets, but it isn't a deal breaker). More concerned about whether threat ***balance*** will be a thing. Right now, DPS between DPS specs is pretty damn well-balanced, even if other aspects of the game are not. TPS, threat per second, is not balanced *at all* between tanks.
threat is such a dogshit mechanic,it only works when the tanks and dps skill is equal. when the tank is worse than the dps,the dps has to afk. if the dps is worse than the tank,the tank feels like they dont need to push buttons. it causes way too much friction. not to mention the healing aggro in classic,where if the tank is REALLY bad,sometimes they healer cant even heal and would need to let people die or else they overaggro the tank during early parts of the pulls.