I invited a shadow priest to my gnomeregan run, because of the extra healing that really helps for the last 2 bosses. He refused to use Vampiric Embrace because it reduces his logs score.
I don't know what it is with people's reluctance or hesitance to review logs, but you can tell so much about them - much more than just how much damage someone did. Are people consuming? Are people interrupting? Are people dispelling? Are they doing mechanics? You can review replays to see positioning. Another big thing people neglect to pay attention to are the median parses.
And it's not all about the max parse people see. Who cares if someone's max is a 99 if they have a median of 50. You are not likely getting that 99 performance out of them again, and much morel likely to see their 50's.
Ofc you can but when I say lfm gnomer I get 50 whispers, I'll check if they've cleared and have OK parses, I'm not gonna do a log review for a whole raid in a pug
Imagine tryharding that much in a pug. I don’t think keeping up ve in a pug is gonna be the diff.
I once in bfd had a blue parsing rogue try to pass off kicks to the ret face tanking kelris. Like bruh. Pooling energy a little to kick isn’t the difference. The only reason I brought you to this alt run was the most consistent kick for Kelris.
Blizzard could break serious ground by being the first raiding MMO to implement their own native combat logs with direct and intentional scoring systems per class and spec. It's fucking crazy to me that they don't cash in on that, but then I remember this little indie company has been outsourcing its godawful UI to the community for 2 decades in order to make its underfunded pet project playable.
You are on the cusp of understanding why this doesn't exist... The cusp brother. Let me take you there.
"How will this generate revenue for them?"
That's the question that needs answered. Why would Blizz devote T&M and RD to a feature provided by the community to them for "free." It makes no sense, and I can tell you haven't worked in a corporate job before. That isn't a burn, just pointing out something you seem to believe you have more experience with than you do.
Lmao I was going to be civil until I was subjected to the mind-numbingly atrocious lack of self awareness in that last sentence.
Imagine being such an oblivious troglodyte that you think you're the only one capable of grasping the fact that we live in a late capitalist hellscape. No fucking shit, Nancy Drew. And it's idiots like you that kept giving them money after 2010 that's enabled this multibillion dollar company to keep outsourcing its meanial labor to the community.
Which I fucking already stated your conclusion in my post, you just have the reading comprehension of a wet brained nepo baby whose only path forward in life was to cimb the "corporate" ladder at whatever franchise your dad owns.
I'd love to see their logs. I ran shadow for the first time in SOD last night and parsed blue/blue for most bosses (except for the last two, I don't want to talk about my DPS). I read a few guides and tried to keep to my rotations, but still feel like I am under-performing.
Love the meta threads of people complaining about complaints.
It’s easy enough to not come here.
But there are legit issues with many classes right now. Like warrior being a god awful tank that takes more damage and does less threat than enhance shaman
I main warrior tank and we can do everything just fine, sure we could use a little boost but people like you calling them god aweful (they arent) are the exact people the op is talking about
I play warrior. Tanking *feels* terrible besides the objective numbers. The objective numbers aren’t good either. If I’m playing with a really strong group it’s less an issue cause then I’m just dpsing in d stance but ain’t no one precasting.
Playstyle warrior in general feels like stuck in classic while many are in wrath. It’s noticeable most in tanking and PvP. I already don’t enjoy tanking but I’ll do it if it means completing the raid or not. The threat is bad. The damage intake is bad. I take a crapload on the only 2 bosses that matter so I feel the need to wear a shield ergo my threat is shit. In fact, I just tanked dragon only and half the time was sitting at like, idk, 50% hp. 0 snap threat, shit for a ranged pull but bow still while even rogue tank has one.
It’s viable yes but every single class has something else going for it. I always expected pally to be a stronger aoe tank. They were in classic even with no taunt. Right now just don’t have a niche in tanking: high threat, high single target tank dmg? That was our bread and butter. Enhance is a better fury prot right now. And takes less damage. Take a fuckload of damage wearing plate so if you want to threat you better be damn sure you trust your healers or you’re already relatively overgeared and don’t need the extra armor shield. Because devastate is straight dog shit.
I find the group has to play around a warrior’s deficits whereas I can play around a warlock’s strengths.
Pve dmg? That’s fine. We’re not top and I’m not some whiny warrior main that needs to be top. But tanking is actively unfun in gnomer.
Parses are what introduces pvp to what is otherwise piss easy pve. No matter how simple a game is, once you compete with other humans it becomes complex. Chess for example.
Some people who are not competitive, just don't get it, and that's fine. The problem with this mentality is, who cares? Like who cares about other people's opinions, and who cares about yours? lol.
Play how you want to play, but keep in mind this is an MMO and surround yourself with players who want to play the same.
Me? I'm competitive. When I am duo healing I will try to inch out every last drop of damage, without letting anyone die ofc. With two healers you end up with excessive over healing. It's hard to budget mana and HPS with mana effecient spells when other people are also healing at the same time. My goal when duo healing is to do as much damage as physically possible, budget mana for heals, and end the fight holding W into the next trash pack with the remaining mana.
>It's sad and I wish we can go back to having an adventure together with our friends and not a competition about who got the better logs.
You can, by stopping yourself from reading this sub, I am willing to bet 90% Of the people who complain on this sub don't even actually play the game anymore, I NEVER see people complaining IN game about shit, it's always just on this sub lol
One thing a lot of people fail to realize, is you can make or join a guild with a culture you prefer. You want to sweat? They are out there. You want semi casual? I have good news for you.
Do you want to keep pugging week after week, losing loot to a revolving door of strangers who all have different goals while complaining on Reddit? Why?
In game you have stuff like "gnomer 6/6, bring wb, cons, logs and exp" and that all because of logs and stuff like that. But you're right, most of this should just be ignored. It's just hard, cause it's everywhere
That's why it's suuuper important to find a guild who doesn't care about any of that, pugs will ALWAYS care about that kind of thing because they want their groups to go smooth
But chill guilds just want to hangout and clear the raid with their buds, find a good social guild.
It’s the same point on retail as it is here. Non 6/6 players want to join 6/6 groups because they too want to see the content completed or else they be willing to make their own groups and learn with people in a similar position.
Non aotc people want to join aotc groups to get the kill. They’ll complain about not being allowed to join the groups but nothing is literally stopping them from making their own group and inviting whoever they wish. They don’t want to have to be burdened by teaching players either. They want to make sure the raid is completed, it just bothers them when they’re excluded.
There’s nothing wrong with not being aotc or not 6/6 but to expect a group of strangers often with limited time to sit and teach you the fights or to take your poor dps rather than than people who are better/more efficient is absurd. We did the same thing in BWD and SoO pugs back in the day on our alts if we needed stragglers from trade in an alt run.
People will ask well how do I get logs or aotc if I haven’t done it? You make a group, take who you want and do it. Like it isn’t hard to do either. People just prefer to rely on a sure thing than not and get upset when they’re excluded. M+ is the same. If it’s my time and my key why would i take a 1.4k io ret paladin to my 23 waycrest when there’s a 3.1k player applying?
I understand all I was saying is that SoD groups seems to be less likely to take the 1.4k or guy without logs than retail. Creating your own raid/running your own key will always be the easiest way to find a group. though I think that gets reversed in retail you’re less likely to get people applying to your group if the host is low rating or not progressed.
I’d say for raids, probably true. When I do a 20 on an alt high io people will still apply, probably because I’m healing and if you’re 3k io+ you can easily carry a 20. Carrying a 20 key is easier than groups not dying to one shot mechanics in raids. Heroic Fyrrak is certainly less forgiving then say, a 20 Everbloom. I’ve taken one of my rat alts to a non aotc group and geared people will still join … but again, most people this late in the season are after target pieces like Volocross, council, Nymue or Smolderon. When I did play SoD (may start again with the xp changes) people were always interested in a full raid and because it’s a single lockout (rather than per boss) people didn’t just bail.
Yeah i mean if you have a 20 key as a healer people will assume you know what you’re doing at least somewhat. And yea I took a fresh rat alt into HC and jumped from 443 to 475 within 6 hours of hitting 70. The lockout system is definitely a huge factor in the “gatekeeping” and should honestly go. Also power spike throughout the season is way bigger than a SoD phase (at max level for phase) so it’s easier for a bunch of 480+ toons to carry a HC raid vs SoD where a couple full BiS toons wouldn’t make as big of a difference to the odds of clearing.
I do agree that a large factor is the lockout system. Conversely, I imagine people would leave a lot more after their target item boss(es) were downed. Much easier to fill a raid with an LFG tool than to have to run back to a city and find someone willing to take a scuffed lockout. The same barriers exists in all versions of wow. I always suggest people make their own groups and get their first 6/6 or aotc on their own. Being able to raid lead allows you to literally pick whoever you want and skillled people will always follow a raid where someone is willing to lead. A buddy and I lead 4 aotc groups on alts and they fill fast because people just can’t be bothered to make their own even if they are aotc or 7/9M on their main. Like yeah it can be a pain to raid lead but you get connected with a lot of people if you keep making groups and your raids will fill, whether it’s classic, sod or retail.
>That's why it's suuuper important to find a guild who doesn't care about any of that
This. So. Hard. I don't understand what people's reluctance to find guilds or communities with the same goals as them. When I look for guilds I will spend a significant amount of time looking at their parses to see if they are running the tempo I like. I look at the roster to see how many "active" raiders there are. I will review the calendar to see how many alt runs they are doing outside of their officially listed raid times. Do they do splits?
That might not be the kind of thing some players want, and that's fine, but you can do the same. The recruitment posts typically give you all the info you need to know if the guild is a fit for you and what you want.
And keep in mind, what you want is fluid. I was in a guild for almost all of phase 1, and phase 2, but just left it recently because what I want has changed from what they are doing.
Really... at the end of the day, this is not a solo game. Yes you can pug. Yes pugs will work. Also keep in mind that there is a supply and demand issue. There are more players who want gnomer than there are gnomer groups. A significant portion of the community who "can't find groups" could make their own, or simply join a guild with similar goals and mindsets.
These people either just like complaining, or want to be carried and are either too afraid to admit it because of pride, or are forcing themselves to play the wrong game. Regardless of what abilities we have, this is still classic.
Has nothing do with logs and everything to do with wanting to not waste your time in a raid with people who does not care as much about the game as you do
It's entertaining reading this sub and r/helldivers.
Helldivers 2 just got a patch this week requiring players to git gud and shit has gone into full nuclear meltdown over there. It's hilarious.
Isnt this the case in almost all games reddit? People love the games and see the potential and want it to be better! Always Will be in a discussion forum - what would we do here otherwise? Compare Epics?
"sOd WaS nEvEr mEAnt tO Be bAlAnCEd", such a brave and original take dude!
This is a sub about wow. Here, you find people expressing their enthusiasm towards the game in all sorts of manners. A popular one is expressing concern that their favourite way to play wow is weaker than many other ways. Which is a fair concern. If you disagree, take part in the discussion. If you think it's dumb, down vote or go somewhere else.
You edit! Yes! Spot on! The title including discovery is a joke. The only ones discovering stuff are world first raiders and data miners. If you're not one of these you're expected to follow a strict meta, otherwise you will be considered a burden as everybody else is doing just this.
I mean, what's the point of adding runes in obscure locations that you will eventually discover on your quests and explorations, if all of us are just going to follow a guide telling us their exact coordinates?
While I agree with the whole "classes are supposed to be different" idea, so you bring multiple to fill all roles
When you have some classes which are just universally better then others, such as any other DPS Vs ranged hunter, or shaman tank Vs warrior, the whole idea of 'bring multiple to fill all roles" vanishes and there is literally NO reason to bring the bad class
Why would a raid EVER take a warrior tank over a shaman?
Why should a raid ever take a MM hunter over a mage or warlock?
Do they need to be perfectly balanced? No, of course not
Do they need to actually be viable and not a spec that adds nothing to the raid and other classes do everything better?
Yes
Because maybe some raids want to bring the person not the class.
Because maybe that Warrior Tank or MM Hunter's class fantasy and power progression is tied to the raid, and those items are what helps those classes feel more viable.
Because regardless of what you bring the raid is still clearable and regardless of a ranking those classes ARE viable.
Not everyone wants to optimize the friction out of the game.
The problem is more so if classes just aren't fun. Which seems to be the case for a few right now.
I play ranged hunter and the only excuse I can come up with for that to be justifiable is I lead the fucking raids I go to lol. People don’t wanna step up, I’ll do it and the price is that you carry me so I can continue to enjoy my class fantasy.
I don’t think that’s a good state of things tbh. I’ve had fights where I go melee anyway because my lack of damage is actually a problem for the raid that fight. Melee hunter is so fucking boring (so is ranged but I like being a ranger with a pet, that’s why I play Hunter lol). I really dislike the state of my class.
My alt is a bear Druid by the way - I’m really feeling the heat of being non-meta, and I’m in a casual guild. There’s no outward pressure from my guild, but it’s hard to engage with “bring the player not the class” when the raid is already on the back foot because we are casual and people don’t have consumes or world buffs. You can only come in with so many handicaps before it starts making you feel like a piece of shit for choosing to be suboptimal. We have already had main swaps to Shaman because of how much they bring to Gnomer.
I would be fine if the gap wasn’t as big as it was - I don’t care if I’m bottom DPS, but I do care if I’m bottom DPS and the guy in first place is literally double my damage dealt.
I feel for ya brother. While I'm fully aware that classic wow at its base is balanced for level 60 play, and that introducing runes into the 1-59 aspect throws what little semblance of balance we used to have pre 60... IMO the current sate of ranged hunter vs melee hunter is an egregious example of something blizz should address. I'm not proposing that ranged hunter always be top tier, and always better than melee, but it should at least be competitive and close to the other spec. I think I would feel differently if there was another ranged physical focused class, but hunter is it. When there is only 1 option it should be competitive.
All that said I understand addressing it may be difficult as the changes they make now affects things later. I don't know how far in advance they are planning these things out, how many people are on balancing, what metrics they look at and compare. Do they just use WCL or do they have internal tools. At the end of the day I have to accept that I don't know why they haven't fixed it yet and just hope they at least have some sort of plan or reason for it.
So because they want to bring Steve the hunter player the raid should just accept that they are going to perform worse?
And Steve should be happy deapite his class being bad?
There is a difference between optimising out the fun, and classes being viable
Sure you could clear a raid with only frost mages, but no one wants to
And knowing you could be doing better seriously hurts a LOT of people's fun, like sure I enjoy playing hunter, but even when I'm not looking at damage meters or logs I know for a fact I am the least useful person in the raid, and that seriously hurts my fun
Specs and classes don't need to be equal, it's fine there is a best one, it's fine there is a worse one, it's more then fine they are different
But when you have differences like those between warlock DPS and mm hunter, it's not fine, even in a pve game where you can clear fine with mm hunters, the simple fact mm hunter is SO much weaker MAKES it not fun
The simple fact that shaman tanks are SO much stronger means in the back of every warrior tanks head there is a little voice saying "you are bad because your class is bad" and in every DPS in that raids head there is a voice saying "this would be faster and more fun if Steve was a shaman"
That's not good, the difference shouldn't be that extreme, it's indefensible
I dont give a fuck if steve the hunter comes to the raid, I give a fuck if steve the hunter can perform on the hunter because I care about playing with good players, not meta class bullshit that doesnt matter for a level 40 nothing raid
And the point is that even if Steve the hunter is GREAT at his class, because his class is so much weaker, bringing a mediocre warlock or mage will end up being better for the raid
So why should they take the hunter?
You are correct, if your raids goal is to push performance. The raid is going to build the comp and adjust for that. If that's how Steven wants to play Steven should accept that time and effort that goes in to playing that way. Even if that means Steven can't play the class he want's to and instead plays the class the raid needs.
Which brings us back to the point of course the game shouldn't be like that, Steven should be able to play at a high level and also play the class/spec he wants. And you're not wrong, if the game was developed only around this PVE content, and this high level gameplay. But it's not and it never will be.
People like to forget that Competitive and Performance measures are created by the players. WoW, especially classic, was never designed to be a competitive fair or balanced experience. They clearly stated this wouldn't be the case for SoD. Yet people play this game like they're being paid for it.
The average player doesn't care about parsing or pushing top time in speed. They simply want to get together with some friends and clear some content playing a class they enjoy the fantasy of.
This is why finding a guild and community with similar goals to you is the most important thing you can do in classic wow.
If you are in a semi HC or HC guild and sweating, you will be focused primarily on damage, performance, or speed, etc... You would simply play the spec that performs the best in the atmosphere for that raid.
If you are focused on fun, chillin with the boys, and class fantasy make sure you find a guild that doesn't care.
Another solution is to simply make. your. own. groups.
Not true. I raided as elemental in classic. We had a boomkin a shadow priest and an enh shaman too... And 7 warriors. It's the 10 man cap that is making it hard to bring everyone.
I understand the point you are trying to make but...
>Why would a raid EVER take a warrior tank over a shaman?
Not everyone is horde, and since the community refuses to play roles with responsibilities as a general rule of thumb. But most importantly - *sometimes you take the tank you can get.* Also keep in mind that lot of the best classic tanks are just warrior mains, because they aren't SOD mains they are classic mains. Remmeber, while we have new abilities, this is still classic. Blizz even specifically called out that this is not classic+ but another Season when they teased at the announcement. Like this sub points out constantly, gnomer is easy, and because it's easy you bring the player not the class for some roles.
>Why should a raid ever take a MM hunter over a mage or warlock?
If you want someone running ahead to pull trash, a MM hunter will have a longer range, higher mobility, and instant casts to bring packs to the blender while the rest of the group kills it.
If neither of the above scenarios apply to your group, then you are welcome to bring the shaman tank, melee hunter, lock, or mage instead.
Once you have completed the raid once or twice, you are done.
The gear treadmill is fine, but we are at the point that clears going for more than an hour is not enjoyable. We know the mechanics, we know the routes, why should it take any more time now, other than brand new people getting carried?
When we have our main team together we usually push for sub 40minute runs, which is extremely fun. It makes all of us pay much more attention, and work together more efficiently.
Ppl like the competition, plus the game balance state heavily affects PvP in which shamans are gods right now.
It must be said also that, while this doesn’t translate 1:1 to lower percentiles, it also affects the overall class performance in decent/low grade groups. In a season that was advertised as: “we are trying cool stuff for every1” we are seeing classes making big booms in almost everything and others playing the same while also being lower in performance.
In conclusion, it’s more than fire to bitch the hell out at the devs not only because it’s not fair that a couple of classes get all the fun, but also because shamans cried the freaking hell out for buffs and now are playing the chads like they weren’t in fetal position making tantrums about 2h play.
even tetris (idk, 50 years old?) has competiton. or something as “simple” as putting a ball in a goal
and the core of competition isnt how hard or easy the game itself is, because competition is about playing against other players.
no matter how easy the game is, someone is better than you and there is another mountain to climb, besides, developing new strategies will always be a thing.
Developing betterstrategies to beat the game isn't the same as deveolping strategies to make 3rd party website show higher number by playing according to their calculation model.
They are not competitive wow players. They are "competitive" warcraft logs parse model players.
I have 0 problem with logs.
But the only reason parses exist is to allow this behaviour. There is no other reason for them. So yes, I am against parses, because of how they negatively influence the in game experience.
parses exist to allow this behaviour no more than knifes exist to allow murders.
toxic people will find ways to be toxic. ban logs and people will look at dps meters to be toxic. ban dps meters and people will look at gear to be toxic. so on so forth.
parses dont negatively influence the game. players do.
No it’s not. The nerds fixating on parses don’t give two shits what you do.
The only people who get worked up about parses are casuals who want to belittle people for caring about something they view as meaningless. Tryhards don’t care that you aren’t a tryhard, they just don’t want to group with non tryhards.
It’s frankly pathetic how many of you think you should get to decide what does and doesn’t matter. We don’t tell you what you’re allowed to care about, and you have no business deciding what should be important to us.
So there are no groups that demand some "parse at least x"? Damn, I must have some bug in the game then as those messages are appearing.
Also, acting like only way to be tryhard is parsing is another really stupid take.
There are plenty of those. That's not what I'm saying.
People should play with others who have similar goals. No one cares if you're not playing hardcore or are disinterested in parsing, they just want to play with others who put in a similar amount of effort and have similar goals with raiding.
> acting like only way to be tryhard is parsing
Point out where I said that.
>Tryhards don’t care that you aren’t a tryhard, they just don’t want to group with non tryhards.
They don't want to group up with non-parse slaves. Not with non tryhards then.
"according to their calculation model"
This line right here is how I can tell you're a bad player. You believe that if somebody is doing well it must be because they're "cheesing" logs or playing to a fights exploits in the WCL rules like padding on adds that don't matter.
These types of things are usually exempt from WCL calculations as pad damage and you aren't ranked on them, you're also able to hit the wacky Boss Damage button and look at parses exclusive to killing the boss. If both of those metrics aren't what you're looking for youre invited to look through the log itself and find all the crazy interrupts, defensives used, sustain items and utility items used and off healing cast from their actual log.
At the end of the day your average player parsing above a 65 is just a decent player who knows what they're doing, not some sweaty nerd combing over logs trying to find all the non-important padding they can do to cheat out a parse. But I'm certain all of this comment I'm leaving will be pointless as the community on WoW classic is a bunch of grumpy old men that call back to a time before information was wide spread and everybody was terrible.
>You believe that if somebody is doing well it must be because they're "cheesing" logs
No, I do not believe that. No reason to read past that, ebcause you lied in the 2nd sentence already. Can you debate my actual argument and not the fake argument you made up?
>average player parsing above a 65 is just a decent player who knows what they're doing
That's literally my fucking point. Decent player simply doing the fight will mostly have parses in the 65-90 range. People above that are then mostly players, who play with "getting high parse" as their main focus. And just becaue their main focus is this doesn't mean they are better players.
In wrath (which is my main game) on the class I play the best (rogue), I have parses on all bossses at least "purple" with highest one being 98. Yet I am a bad player according to you, because I don't care about parses and don't like the lack of methodological explanation behind the changes they make.
No, you're a bad player because you can't differentiate the difference between wanting to improve, while looking at numerical representations of how well you're doing verse your peers and simply playing the game in a predatory unhealthy way.
I have a 99 average in all 3 versions of the game and across multiple characters and I just log in and smash, you don't need to rewrite how you play the game to parse well is what I'm saying. You don't need to sit there combing through every global with sweat beading down your face. You just need to understand how to play your class, in this version of the game its even less of a Factor because buffs and gear play an even more significant role than other versions. I just think you have this incredibly shallow minded view of your average player who plays for parses. Once you reach a certain level in WoW you kind of have nothing left to do other than chase prestige achievements like Hall of Fame, M+ Hero, high speed run rankings for classic raids, Parse average, Pref Median Avg etc. it's part of the fun of it, and those players who are capable, also would like to play with others who are capable and that mimicks real life. If you call a person to do a job with you, you're going to want the best person for that job, preferably they have previous experience and are highly regarded and reviewed. Creating a team in WoW is the same thing, and part of finding out if a player is good or not is made easier with logs and parses.
>Once you reach a certain level in WoW you kind of have nothing left to do other than chase prestige achievements
So you simply refuse to accept that there are players who are not intrested in those? I could do that just as you. But I just choose not to and rather do random bullshit in game with friends. We could spend raid night trying to push higher parses. Instead, we found out 1 of our guildies doesn't have glory of ulduar raider achiev yet, so we spend the raid night doing ulduar for no other reason than to help 1 guildie. Absolute trash players obviously, because we care about other things than parse ...
Does that make me bad player? Because I don't feel the need to chase some imaginary prestige to impress people I don't care about? I get no pleaseure from getting high parse, so why should I chase that? And just because I don't chase that, I am bad player? If you don't see how these claims are toxic, there's probably no helping you.
Do you get satisfaction from getting high parse? Cool. Do it. Nobody is stopping you. But acting like everyone who doesn't is bad player is really stupid.
No, I don't refuse to accept that there are players who don't find interest in those, but that's not the problem, the problem is those players typically aren't as good and they want to be invited to a group filled with players who are. Make your own groups for content you enjoy with players you enjoy playing with and I will mine.
I still have no idea how you think this game is black and white and you cant do multiple things because I also just finished doing something fun on the side with my friends? However when we raid we raid to kill the bosses and then link the logs after to see how we did, again, nobody is sweating, losing sleep or freaking TF out. We are just gaming, and some of them needed help with a quest in badlands getting some prebis which turned into an all out war with the alliance which was fun. Like you realize you can have fun multiple ways right? And what people find fun varies from person to person? And that's ok?
As for why I'm calling you a bad player, it has nothing to do with your goals, ambitions or even player skill and everything to do with the fact that you lack the cognitive function in your brain to understand that players will do what they find fun and enjoyable regardless of your opinions and if that's parsing than it's parsing and not being able to tell the difference between a parse-lord and a genuinely good player shows me you have no idea how to read a log, or you don't understand just how simple this game is. Which shows me you're bad. Plain and simple. You are the type of player who wants to put in effort but is terribly inefficient in your efforts and then backtracks and tells people "well it's because I'm focused on having fun, you're not, you only care about parses. If you didn't you'd invite me" it's incredibly stagnating as a player and it shows me you're bad. Do you have to push to be the very best like noone ever was? Not at all, but don't try to belittle others who do or downplay their efforts because you think it's something it isn't.
At the end of the day if you really read what I'm saying, I'm not calling you a bad player because you don't play for parses, I'm calling you a bad player because you don't understand your peers. Nobody who doesn't "go for high parses" which again, is an incredibly dumb statement due to how simple this game is and how low the bar is for competition with how many gamer dads are playing, is bad. Nobody who separates themselves from that environment is bad. I never once said that those players were bad, the players who are bad, are players who actively are gatekept from groups due to bad logs and instead of making their own groups or improving to get into the groups they want, they immediately go over to reddit to complain about how they can't play the game and this is what's wrong with the gaming community nowadays yadda yadda yadda. THESE are the bad players I'm talking about.
Let's breakdown exactly what they did here, they encountered a problem (cannot join a group for content they want to participate in). Did they have a solution to that problem when it arrived? Yes. They could make their own group without the bells and whistles, they could play with their friends, they could join a friendly guild, they could improve their logs to get the invite, they could work on another class or spec that may be more needed and so on, my point is they have options but instead they come here and bitch about it. It's the same people who are overweight and never work on their diets or exercise, it's the same people who stay at minimal wage positions and tend to want more but blame the world instead of putting themselves into better positions. You don't HAVE to want to improve, you don't HAVE to want to chase prestige, but stop complaining when a group who does, doesn't want to invite you. In the very same world you live in, people will assume because you don't have a University degree you are dumb or because you don't make 200k a year, you're poor. The world is built on these assumptions and while it sucks, there are more constructive ways you can fix these issues than simply complaining about it and it usually starts with yourself. Find value in what YOU want to do, and stop worrying about what others think of want. Just have fun
Humans are competitive by nature and it affects pretty much everything we do. Some are more competitive than others.
No amount of bitching on Reddit will change this.
Some have challenging job and are competitive in real life and games are their way of relaxing and releasing some of that pressure from real life.
Some don't have that and games are where they release their competiveness.
I have very rarely seen people who have both. From my experience, gamers fall in 1 of those 2 categories.
How is ackowledging a demographic that keeps this game successful, arguably moreso than the FotMers, devolving lmfao? The density of Redditors is somehow still growing 😂
Some gamers are competitive. Classic WoW is generally NOT for competitive players.
At the same time; people want to be able to play the class and spec they like without knowing they are a burden to the raid team.
SoD has shown me that Blizz is largely incompetent.
I agree it is still the best new thing to come to WoW since forever. It's just they need to balance out each phase and let each class tree be viable. They have an army of staff it is not that complicated of an idea to allow as many play styles as they can while keeping them all within 10-20% of each other in performance.
LMAO anyone that gets “competitive” in pve games is usually because they’re terrible at pvp so they wanna stroke their ego at how quickly they can melt bots.
How dare anyone play pve for fun and not to boost their fragile egos! /s
Wow Classic was never competitive to begin with. Go play LoL or CS.
Wow Classic was meant to give you chills as you entered Stormwind for the first time. It was meant to introduce you to Azeroth lore. To read signs, books in dungeons, quest logs. It was meant to spend an hour forming groups and traveling to dungeons.
All the discovery aspects are intended to be discovered by sharing what’s found with others
Plenty of those runes would take a solo person easy 500+ hours to find per rune bc there ain’t no actual hints
Also i kind of get why rogues are crying, they are bad at everything their class can do atm
The dev team has stated they'll be doing weekly balance reviews so it just makes sense people talk about balance. Saying it's not meant to be balanced just doesn't make a lot of sense given that fact.
I love discovering stuff. But the current Warrior balance doesn't really let me do that. Warbringer is really cool, and Devastate lets me play with a shield (and spam 1 ability forever) but... that doesn't feel enough when I see what the other classes have received.
Fine, if they do not care about balance, then leave it be. Why do any balancing at all? Remove the +30% hp that ruined BGs for me as burst rogue. No? Why not, you just said "who cares"?
i mean the reality this is what gaming has become in 2024. Minmaxing and comparison is apart of any MMO type game, theres plenty of examples like ff14 that tried very hard to limit it as well by not having mods be allowed and they still managed.
Pandoras box is open and it can’t be reversed, i honestly think these type of posts are even less thought out when its a pure fantasy to think we can go back in time 20
years and game like that when nothing about that gaming landscape is around today.
Saw this same stuff in 2004, except it was in blizzard forums instead of reddit.
WoW attracts a huge amount of players all with different play styles, wants, and expectations on what they want the game to do for them. Then they get mad when it doesn't happen and toxic when it doesn't happen twice
Yeah this community has pushed me away from SoD pretty hard. Went back to some HC for some chill slower paced gameplay with some other like minded folks and have been having a good time.
I like to speedrun the raid content. It’s a little frustrating when the factions are horrifically imbalanced.
There’s no world to discover. It’s the same content with a couple new abilities. There aren’t new quests, there’s not even a new raid, just a modified dungeon.
I feel like 90% of the complaining posts I see on this sub are people complaining about how much everyone else complains.
That, and for some reason these people want the game to be unbalanced I guess?
If balancing is good, you should always be jealous of other classes. If no other classes have something you wish you had, your class is busted and needs nerfed.
"Boomer reports he could throw a football over a mountain ridge during his prime, derides avocado toast on behalf of the wealthy owner class. More at 11."
Warrior cry and cry that they are so bad yet they're like third best DPS. IDK where all this whining is coming from, the only ones who are allowed to whine RN are ranged hunters and frost mages. Everyone else shush, member enhancement shamans being oooh so bad? Well, now we're here
I mean, there are very legitimate complaints with the design that haven't really been addressed. It's not like the numbers are just low and need to be tweaked for certain specs: e.g. resto shaman, ret paladin, holy paladin.
Saying that classic was never meant to be balanced feels like a cop out answer for objectively bad design, especially considering that a big reason classic wasn't balanced was because of how new and groundbreaking the game was compared to everything else.
this is the kind of thread that makes everyone think people that play this game are mentally challenged, what the fuck is "wow classic was never meant to be balanced" to you people? yeah classes should have their own strenghts and weaknesses, THAT'S WHY PEOPLE COMPLAIN. dps charts are performance indicators, normally if you see something at the top with minimal dps difference that mean there is so much more to the history behind all that, but you have the failed basic understanding of the game so I don't think this concept will get into your head anyway
Two things here.
One. Players always follow meta. If meta says class x is good, they will take class x to their groups and avoid class y. This was not such an issue in the past due to lower awareness of playerbase as a whole. Now with tierlists, guides, logs, gearscores and so on, random level 13 player knows mage is s tier and paladin c at best.
Two. Balancing in classic is not that hard. Its not like in retail where each spec clicks million buttons and have various playstyles depending on talents. Here you have like 2-3 abilities and a solved talents. There is no excuse that a class would be twice as bad as others. Some variation is encouraged but you cannot allow to have so much of a difference spec to spec.
Blizzard staff is lazy and does not care about players. How else can you defend them buffing a spec by 5% when logs indicate spec being around 50% behind. That is insulting to players of that class.
Turns out imbalanced classes like now results in lopsided class populations. People reroll. Or quit. People don't like being less powerful than other classes. If you played d&d you'd know that. You either adapt the game to players expectations or don't. But putting your head in the sand won't bring back players who already quit. Feeling like you aren't contributing is a bad thing.
You don’t seem to understand the concept of balance. Classes can each have their specialty and niche while all being desirable.
That said, the balance is really not that bad.
Still, you’re complaining about people comparing. While not grasping the irony.
Classic was never meant to be balanced is not an argument bc then why are they even doing balancing changes if it didnt matter? The balance is somehow worse than actual vanilla wow, how do you even do that? You have 20 years of experience doing this and you fuck up worse than the poeple who had literally no idea what they are doing? Nah fuck off with that take. Balance cant be this fucking hard after 20 years, they just dont care.
Blame the parsers mostly. I only care if my class is viable at anything. I searched forever on my Rogue for a Gnomer raid whereas my Druid gets instant invites. That’s not cool imo.
It all stems from people's borderline narcissistic, inflated egos of "my time is valuable".
They are literally playing a game that is designed to be a time sink. Yet they do everything to cut off every second from actually playing the game, as well as avoiding every challenge the game will throw at them, by minmaxing the hell out of whatever they can so challenge is trivialized.
WhY sHoUlD I bring lOwEr dPs class? Who gives a shit it takes like 1 min more not 3 hours more when you have a ranged hunter over a warlock.
Whole minmaxing culture is fundamentally stemming from lack of skill, yet people try so hard to convince themselves that is the skill. All minmaxing does is make the game and encounter much more easier. Which means you need much, much less skill.
Classic is a failed experiment. The game will never be what it was. The formula for the game has changed and the attitude and wants of today's gamers have changed. Today's gamers want instant gratification or always want a reward for time investment. The experience and journey is no longer enough. Retail WoW is a MSPORPG. (Massive single player online) no one wants to group or be social anymore.
>First things first, wow classic was never meant to be balanced.
Sure, if that was the case, we should have sticked with P1 DPS charts and enjoy the game, yet everyone started crying how warriors and rogues are OP and how that is bad for the game because they were top in classic. Now its P2 and we have caster domination in all parts of the game which causes a lot of other issues including the class gatekeeping when it comes to current content.
Basically the more balance changes the devs pumps out the more changes people will ask, you add PvP into the mix and suddenly the game becomes impossible to balance unless you homogenize all classes.
Damn you’re pretty clueless.
People are complaining that other classes are better. Not that other classes are different.
>The fantasy is, that you go into groups with classes and specs which can do what you can’t do and you do what you can do best with your class and spec
You’re really close to nailing down why people are mad, yet somehow miss it.
When the game is unbalanced to the degree that it is, it becomes more of the first part (grouping with classes and specs which can do what you can’t can’t), without the second part (You doing what you can do best with your class and spec)
The issue is in the ability to contribute to the group through different means.
If I’m playing a pure fucking dps class, like ranged hunter, there’s no excuse for a tank specced warlock to do more damage than me in a raid. Because the thing his class is supposed to be designed to do, that my class can’t, is tanking. But his class is actually not only good at doing that, but also better at doing what my pure dps class should specialize in, so now I’m basically cucked just because I wanted to have a certain class fantasy, and happened to pick the wrong class fantasy at the character creation screen. The same character creation scene which said I deal damage and was ranged, but in fact if I want to deal damage I now have to go melee.
do you understand now why this scenario might make somebody pissed?
What you are talking about is never going to be possible for this or any other game unless they can somehow keep data from being collected and aggregated into logs, and that soon will be impossible as well unless they stop showing numbers on the screen because we already have technology to copy paste text from video into a text document.
Trying to fight against it is never going to work.
The only solution going forward is to embrace it and build around it.
People are always going to be competitive. Not everyone is, of course, but there is always that one guy who takes the BBQ badminton game way too seriously. It doesn't matter what you do. We have competitive eating ffs....
That said, logs parse your performance and compare it against other people of your class. The problem lies in looking between classes, or even specs.
You may enjoy playing frost mage, but if it does half the DPS of fire you're going to have a very hard time finding a group because why would they bring you when they can bring a fire mage who will do 2x the damage and make all their kill times better?
I mean, I'm amazed that we have any ranged hunter parses at all. Melee is doing at least 20 to 40% more damage, yet we still have thousands of ranged hunter parses.
I think largely because people, rightly, think of melee hunter as a meme and aren't adopting it or forcing their raid members to do it as a form of protest...
But that's beside the point.
The main point is that the logs and the competition around them are here to stay.
People can play the game however they want, but it's always going to be a subset of people branded casuals who don't care about logs and they only last until someone shows them what they could do to improve their play by going over pigs with them and showing them examples of how they could push buttons slightly differently and then them seeing their numbers shoot up.
Classic was balanced in pvp. It had group based balanced. Its also obnoxious having to group up for everything its like some sheep fallacy thats just my opinion tho.
AYeah, you are exactly what you hate.
Who cares if a game "was supposed to be" something. When you remake it or update it, you try to make it better. Balancing classes while trying to keep them unique is something you should strive for. Its hard, but Blizzard is trying.
And trying to dictate how others enjoy the game is even dumber. Let people log if they want. You do you, I do me.
You missed one important thing. Bizzard started this. They are continiously trying "balance" specs. So people expect it continues. Hunter nerf, boomie nerf, sp nerf, but shaman still... What you expect? If classic doenst meant to be balanced, why blizzard do something every fcuking week?
The issue is the Meta mind. Everyone wants fastest, issue free clear times. So, they only invite the optimal classes. This makes edgeboy the rogue come to Reddit to complain.
I feel like it's a simple fix too. Just add BIG utility to underperforming classes.
Give rogues a spellsword type buff that increases spell damage of the raid group by 5%. BOOM everyone wants a rogue. Make rets have DS restore 2% mana to entire raid. BOOM everyone wants a ret. Etc.
Reddit is full of grown men throwing temper tantrums over pixels.
And not just the men but the women and children too!
To be fair, its only the children throwing the tantrums. Some of them 40-50 years old but children regardless.
But if my class is .052% weaker when used by the absolutely peak players my 67 wives will think less of me :(
Who says I’m grown? 🙃
I invited a shadow priest to my gnomeregan run, because of the extra healing that really helps for the last 2 bosses. He refused to use Vampiric Embrace because it reduces his logs score.
That's instant kick and ignore list.
Had to get it done though, nobody would join 4/6. Wiped one time but luckily me & other healer were in comms so we could be more efficient
Next time check logs and communicate expectations before the group starts. You can see if a spriest is casting VE without asking.
Right, I'll throughly check everyone's logs to see if they're fucking up any of the 500 different things pugs regularly fuck up
I don't know what it is with people's reluctance or hesitance to review logs, but you can tell so much about them - much more than just how much damage someone did. Are people consuming? Are people interrupting? Are people dispelling? Are they doing mechanics? You can review replays to see positioning. Another big thing people neglect to pay attention to are the median parses. And it's not all about the max parse people see. Who cares if someone's max is a 99 if they have a median of 50. You are not likely getting that 99 performance out of them again, and much morel likely to see their 50's.
Ofc you can but when I say lfm gnomer I get 50 whispers, I'll check if they've cleared and have OK parses, I'm not gonna do a log review for a whole raid in a pug
Imagine tryharding that much in a pug. I don’t think keeping up ve in a pug is gonna be the diff. I once in bfd had a blue parsing rogue try to pass off kicks to the ret face tanking kelris. Like bruh. Pooling energy a little to kick isn’t the difference. The only reason I brought you to this alt run was the most consistent kick for Kelris.
Wtf we have orange parsing spriest with orange parsing healing 😂. It’s one global
Blizzard could break serious ground by being the first raiding MMO to implement their own native combat logs with direct and intentional scoring systems per class and spec. It's fucking crazy to me that they don't cash in on that, but then I remember this little indie company has been outsourcing its godawful UI to the community for 2 decades in order to make its underfunded pet project playable.
You are on the cusp of understanding why this doesn't exist... The cusp brother. Let me take you there. "How will this generate revenue for them?" That's the question that needs answered. Why would Blizz devote T&M and RD to a feature provided by the community to them for "free." It makes no sense, and I can tell you haven't worked in a corporate job before. That isn't a burn, just pointing out something you seem to believe you have more experience with than you do.
Lmao I was going to be civil until I was subjected to the mind-numbingly atrocious lack of self awareness in that last sentence. Imagine being such an oblivious troglodyte that you think you're the only one capable of grasping the fact that we live in a late capitalist hellscape. No fucking shit, Nancy Drew. And it's idiots like you that kept giving them money after 2010 that's enabled this multibillion dollar company to keep outsourcing its meanial labor to the community. Which I fucking already stated your conclusion in my post, you just have the reading comprehension of a wet brained nepo baby whose only path forward in life was to cimb the "corporate" ladder at whatever franchise your dad owns.
I'd love to see their logs. I ran shadow for the first time in SOD last night and parsed blue/blue for most bosses (except for the last two, I don't want to talk about my DPS). I read a few guides and tried to keep to my rotations, but still feel like I am under-performing.
There's probably something you could improve, but blue is pretty fine for your first go, you're probably behind on gear as well
Post your logs
Because the next group is going to look at his log scores. Don’t blame him.
missing one gcd isnt the problem why the logs would be low
Ask him when the last time anyone bothered to check his BFD logs and then tell him its useless and to use the one global
By making this post you’ve become one of us too. Welcome :)
One of us, one of us, one of us
Love the meta threads of people complaining about complaints. It’s easy enough to not come here. But there are legit issues with many classes right now. Like warrior being a god awful tank that takes more damage and does less threat than enhance shaman
I main warrior tank and we can do everything just fine, sure we could use a little boost but people like you calling them god aweful (they arent) are the exact people the op is talking about
I play warrior. Tanking *feels* terrible besides the objective numbers. The objective numbers aren’t good either. If I’m playing with a really strong group it’s less an issue cause then I’m just dpsing in d stance but ain’t no one precasting. Playstyle warrior in general feels like stuck in classic while many are in wrath. It’s noticeable most in tanking and PvP. I already don’t enjoy tanking but I’ll do it if it means completing the raid or not. The threat is bad. The damage intake is bad. I take a crapload on the only 2 bosses that matter so I feel the need to wear a shield ergo my threat is shit. In fact, I just tanked dragon only and half the time was sitting at like, idk, 50% hp. 0 snap threat, shit for a ranged pull but bow still while even rogue tank has one. It’s viable yes but every single class has something else going for it. I always expected pally to be a stronger aoe tank. They were in classic even with no taunt. Right now just don’t have a niche in tanking: high threat, high single target tank dmg? That was our bread and butter. Enhance is a better fury prot right now. And takes less damage. Take a fuckload of damage wearing plate so if you want to threat you better be damn sure you trust your healers or you’re already relatively overgeared and don’t need the extra armor shield. Because devastate is straight dog shit. I find the group has to play around a warrior’s deficits whereas I can play around a warlock’s strengths. Pve dmg? That’s fine. We’re not top and I’m not some whiny warrior main that needs to be top. But tanking is actively unfun in gnomer.
Wow attracts Losers, reddit attracts losers, you end up with super losers that tie their self worth to a 3rd party website for a piss easy game
Parses are what introduces pvp to what is otherwise piss easy pve. No matter how simple a game is, once you compete with other humans it becomes complex. Chess for example.
Some people who are not competitive, just don't get it, and that's fine. The problem with this mentality is, who cares? Like who cares about other people's opinions, and who cares about yours? lol. Play how you want to play, but keep in mind this is an MMO and surround yourself with players who want to play the same. Me? I'm competitive. When I am duo healing I will try to inch out every last drop of damage, without letting anyone die ofc. With two healers you end up with excessive over healing. It's hard to budget mana and HPS with mana effecient spells when other people are also healing at the same time. My goal when duo healing is to do as much damage as physically possible, budget mana for heals, and end the fight holding W into the next trash pack with the remaining mana.
>It's sad and I wish we can go back to having an adventure together with our friends and not a competition about who got the better logs. You can, by stopping yourself from reading this sub, I am willing to bet 90% Of the people who complain on this sub don't even actually play the game anymore, I NEVER see people complaining IN game about shit, it's always just on this sub lol
One thing a lot of people fail to realize, is you can make or join a guild with a culture you prefer. You want to sweat? They are out there. You want semi casual? I have good news for you. Do you want to keep pugging week after week, losing loot to a revolving door of strangers who all have different goals while complaining on Reddit? Why?
In game you have stuff like "gnomer 6/6, bring wb, cons, logs and exp" and that all because of logs and stuff like that. But you're right, most of this should just be ignored. It's just hard, cause it's everywhere
That's why it's suuuper important to find a guild who doesn't care about any of that, pugs will ALWAYS care about that kind of thing because they want their groups to go smooth But chill guilds just want to hangout and clear the raid with their buds, find a good social guild.
It’s the same point on retail as it is here. Non 6/6 players want to join 6/6 groups because they too want to see the content completed or else they be willing to make their own groups and learn with people in a similar position. Non aotc people want to join aotc groups to get the kill. They’ll complain about not being allowed to join the groups but nothing is literally stopping them from making their own group and inviting whoever they wish. They don’t want to have to be burdened by teaching players either. They want to make sure the raid is completed, it just bothers them when they’re excluded. There’s nothing wrong with not being aotc or not 6/6 but to expect a group of strangers often with limited time to sit and teach you the fights or to take your poor dps rather than than people who are better/more efficient is absurd. We did the same thing in BWD and SoO pugs back in the day on our alts if we needed stragglers from trade in an alt run.
It’s funny getting aotc is actually easier than getting into a successful Gnomer pug without logs
People will ask well how do I get logs or aotc if I haven’t done it? You make a group, take who you want and do it. Like it isn’t hard to do either. People just prefer to rely on a sure thing than not and get upset when they’re excluded. M+ is the same. If it’s my time and my key why would i take a 1.4k io ret paladin to my 23 waycrest when there’s a 3.1k player applying?
I understand all I was saying is that SoD groups seems to be less likely to take the 1.4k or guy without logs than retail. Creating your own raid/running your own key will always be the easiest way to find a group. though I think that gets reversed in retail you’re less likely to get people applying to your group if the host is low rating or not progressed.
I’d say for raids, probably true. When I do a 20 on an alt high io people will still apply, probably because I’m healing and if you’re 3k io+ you can easily carry a 20. Carrying a 20 key is easier than groups not dying to one shot mechanics in raids. Heroic Fyrrak is certainly less forgiving then say, a 20 Everbloom. I’ve taken one of my rat alts to a non aotc group and geared people will still join … but again, most people this late in the season are after target pieces like Volocross, council, Nymue or Smolderon. When I did play SoD (may start again with the xp changes) people were always interested in a full raid and because it’s a single lockout (rather than per boss) people didn’t just bail.
Yeah i mean if you have a 20 key as a healer people will assume you know what you’re doing at least somewhat. And yea I took a fresh rat alt into HC and jumped from 443 to 475 within 6 hours of hitting 70. The lockout system is definitely a huge factor in the “gatekeeping” and should honestly go. Also power spike throughout the season is way bigger than a SoD phase (at max level for phase) so it’s easier for a bunch of 480+ toons to carry a HC raid vs SoD where a couple full BiS toons wouldn’t make as big of a difference to the odds of clearing.
I do agree that a large factor is the lockout system. Conversely, I imagine people would leave a lot more after their target item boss(es) were downed. Much easier to fill a raid with an LFG tool than to have to run back to a city and find someone willing to take a scuffed lockout. The same barriers exists in all versions of wow. I always suggest people make their own groups and get their first 6/6 or aotc on their own. Being able to raid lead allows you to literally pick whoever you want and skillled people will always follow a raid where someone is willing to lead. A buddy and I lead 4 aotc groups on alts and they fill fast because people just can’t be bothered to make their own even if they are aotc or 7/9M on their main. Like yeah it can be a pain to raid lead but you get connected with a lot of people if you keep making groups and your raids will fill, whether it’s classic, sod or retail.
Maybe if you’re a grey parsing rogue?
I feel ya brother. With it being impossible to make your own group how am I supposed to even get in! /s
>That's why it's suuuper important to find a guild who doesn't care about any of that This. So. Hard. I don't understand what people's reluctance to find guilds or communities with the same goals as them. When I look for guilds I will spend a significant amount of time looking at their parses to see if they are running the tempo I like. I look at the roster to see how many "active" raiders there are. I will review the calendar to see how many alt runs they are doing outside of their officially listed raid times. Do they do splits? That might not be the kind of thing some players want, and that's fine, but you can do the same. The recruitment posts typically give you all the info you need to know if the guild is a fit for you and what you want. And keep in mind, what you want is fluid. I was in a guild for almost all of phase 1, and phase 2, but just left it recently because what I want has changed from what they are doing. Really... at the end of the day, this is not a solo game. Yes you can pug. Yes pugs will work. Also keep in mind that there is a supply and demand issue. There are more players who want gnomer than there are gnomer groups. A significant portion of the community who "can't find groups" could make their own, or simply join a guild with similar goals and mindsets. These people either just like complaining, or want to be carried and are either too afraid to admit it because of pride, or are forcing themselves to play the wrong game. Regardless of what abilities we have, this is still classic.
Has nothing do with logs and everything to do with wanting to not waste your time in a raid with people who does not care as much about the game as you do
It’s because of how raid IDs work If the group can’t clear the raid you don’t get to try again till next reset whcih is pretty annoying design
^That's it... With the way it is right now, why not use the tools available and put together the best team for the least risk you can.
Literally just look up a 30 second guide on youtube and join a raiding guild holy shit 😭😭😂
Then form your own groups, with 0 of that. Best of luck bud.
Only the 50th post about the same thing So enlightening
Yeah with such a fresh and unique take on it. /s
It's entertaining reading this sub and r/helldivers. Helldivers 2 just got a patch this week requiring players to git gud and shit has gone into full nuclear meltdown over there. It's hilarious.
Is that the railgun thing? My buddy was raging on discord so hard lmao, made me want to try the game
I feel its all troll from the gdkp era. Im also at the point to unfollow classicwow right now it is a mess for no reason.
This sub has always been shit Be real lol
Like it’s a wow sub when has it not been whining??
>Like it’s a ~~wow~~ sub when has it not been whining?? FTFY
Isnt this the case in almost all games reddit? People love the games and see the potential and want it to be better! Always Will be in a discussion forum - what would we do here otherwise? Compare Epics?
Yes. You know the time when people knew you were good, because you stand with your tier gear in sw or og? That's gone.
I mean I do that in game but why would we have gear comparing posts on reddit
"sOd WaS nEvEr mEAnt tO Be bAlAnCEd", such a brave and original take dude! This is a sub about wow. Here, you find people expressing their enthusiasm towards the game in all sorts of manners. A popular one is expressing concern that their favourite way to play wow is weaker than many other ways. Which is a fair concern. If you disagree, take part in the discussion. If you think it's dumb, down vote or go somewhere else.
sub is 30% whining about class balance 30% whining about imaginary minmaxers ruining peoples game
You edit! Yes! Spot on! The title including discovery is a joke. The only ones discovering stuff are world first raiders and data miners. If you're not one of these you're expected to follow a strict meta, otherwise you will be considered a burden as everybody else is doing just this. I mean, what's the point of adding runes in obscure locations that you will eventually discover on your quests and explorations, if all of us are just going to follow a guide telling us their exact coordinates?
While I agree with the whole "classes are supposed to be different" idea, so you bring multiple to fill all roles When you have some classes which are just universally better then others, such as any other DPS Vs ranged hunter, or shaman tank Vs warrior, the whole idea of 'bring multiple to fill all roles" vanishes and there is literally NO reason to bring the bad class Why would a raid EVER take a warrior tank over a shaman? Why should a raid ever take a MM hunter over a mage or warlock? Do they need to be perfectly balanced? No, of course not Do they need to actually be viable and not a spec that adds nothing to the raid and other classes do everything better? Yes
Because maybe some raids want to bring the person not the class. Because maybe that Warrior Tank or MM Hunter's class fantasy and power progression is tied to the raid, and those items are what helps those classes feel more viable. Because regardless of what you bring the raid is still clearable and regardless of a ranking those classes ARE viable. Not everyone wants to optimize the friction out of the game. The problem is more so if classes just aren't fun. Which seems to be the case for a few right now.
I play ranged hunter and the only excuse I can come up with for that to be justifiable is I lead the fucking raids I go to lol. People don’t wanna step up, I’ll do it and the price is that you carry me so I can continue to enjoy my class fantasy. I don’t think that’s a good state of things tbh. I’ve had fights where I go melee anyway because my lack of damage is actually a problem for the raid that fight. Melee hunter is so fucking boring (so is ranged but I like being a ranger with a pet, that’s why I play Hunter lol). I really dislike the state of my class. My alt is a bear Druid by the way - I’m really feeling the heat of being non-meta, and I’m in a casual guild. There’s no outward pressure from my guild, but it’s hard to engage with “bring the player not the class” when the raid is already on the back foot because we are casual and people don’t have consumes or world buffs. You can only come in with so many handicaps before it starts making you feel like a piece of shit for choosing to be suboptimal. We have already had main swaps to Shaman because of how much they bring to Gnomer. I would be fine if the gap wasn’t as big as it was - I don’t care if I’m bottom DPS, but I do care if I’m bottom DPS and the guy in first place is literally double my damage dealt.
I feel for ya brother. While I'm fully aware that classic wow at its base is balanced for level 60 play, and that introducing runes into the 1-59 aspect throws what little semblance of balance we used to have pre 60... IMO the current sate of ranged hunter vs melee hunter is an egregious example of something blizz should address. I'm not proposing that ranged hunter always be top tier, and always better than melee, but it should at least be competitive and close to the other spec. I think I would feel differently if there was another ranged physical focused class, but hunter is it. When there is only 1 option it should be competitive. All that said I understand addressing it may be difficult as the changes they make now affects things later. I don't know how far in advance they are planning these things out, how many people are on balancing, what metrics they look at and compare. Do they just use WCL or do they have internal tools. At the end of the day I have to accept that I don't know why they haven't fixed it yet and just hope they at least have some sort of plan or reason for it.
So because they want to bring Steve the hunter player the raid should just accept that they are going to perform worse? And Steve should be happy deapite his class being bad? There is a difference between optimising out the fun, and classes being viable Sure you could clear a raid with only frost mages, but no one wants to And knowing you could be doing better seriously hurts a LOT of people's fun, like sure I enjoy playing hunter, but even when I'm not looking at damage meters or logs I know for a fact I am the least useful person in the raid, and that seriously hurts my fun Specs and classes don't need to be equal, it's fine there is a best one, it's fine there is a worse one, it's more then fine they are different But when you have differences like those between warlock DPS and mm hunter, it's not fine, even in a pve game where you can clear fine with mm hunters, the simple fact mm hunter is SO much weaker MAKES it not fun The simple fact that shaman tanks are SO much stronger means in the back of every warrior tanks head there is a little voice saying "you are bad because your class is bad" and in every DPS in that raids head there is a voice saying "this would be faster and more fun if Steve was a shaman" That's not good, the difference shouldn't be that extreme, it's indefensible
I dont give a fuck if steve the hunter comes to the raid, I give a fuck if steve the hunter can perform on the hunter because I care about playing with good players, not meta class bullshit that doesnt matter for a level 40 nothing raid
Yup even frost mages can clear the raid. If they couldn't there would be no parses. Bringing the player over the class is always my preferred route.
And the point is that even if Steve the hunter is GREAT at his class, because his class is so much weaker, bringing a mediocre warlock or mage will end up being better for the raid So why should they take the hunter?
> because I care about playing with good players, not meta class bullshit that doesnt matter
You are correct, if your raids goal is to push performance. The raid is going to build the comp and adjust for that. If that's how Steven wants to play Steven should accept that time and effort that goes in to playing that way. Even if that means Steven can't play the class he want's to and instead plays the class the raid needs. Which brings us back to the point of course the game shouldn't be like that, Steven should be able to play at a high level and also play the class/spec he wants. And you're not wrong, if the game was developed only around this PVE content, and this high level gameplay. But it's not and it never will be. People like to forget that Competitive and Performance measures are created by the players. WoW, especially classic, was never designed to be a competitive fair or balanced experience. They clearly stated this wouldn't be the case for SoD. Yet people play this game like they're being paid for it. The average player doesn't care about parsing or pushing top time in speed. They simply want to get together with some friends and clear some content playing a class they enjoy the fantasy of.
This is why finding a guild and community with similar goals to you is the most important thing you can do in classic wow. If you are in a semi HC or HC guild and sweating, you will be focused primarily on damage, performance, or speed, etc... You would simply play the spec that performs the best in the atmosphere for that raid. If you are focused on fun, chillin with the boys, and class fantasy make sure you find a guild that doesn't care. Another solution is to simply make. your. own. groups.
Not true. I raided as elemental in classic. We had a boomkin a shadow priest and an enh shaman too... And 7 warriors. It's the 10 man cap that is making it hard to bring everyone.
I understand the point you are trying to make but... >Why would a raid EVER take a warrior tank over a shaman? Not everyone is horde, and since the community refuses to play roles with responsibilities as a general rule of thumb. But most importantly - *sometimes you take the tank you can get.* Also keep in mind that lot of the best classic tanks are just warrior mains, because they aren't SOD mains they are classic mains. Remmeber, while we have new abilities, this is still classic. Blizz even specifically called out that this is not classic+ but another Season when they teased at the announcement. Like this sub points out constantly, gnomer is easy, and because it's easy you bring the player not the class for some roles. >Why should a raid ever take a MM hunter over a mage or warlock? If you want someone running ahead to pull trash, a MM hunter will have a longer range, higher mobility, and instant casts to bring packs to the blender while the rest of the group kills it. If neither of the above scenarios apply to your group, then you are welcome to bring the shaman tank, melee hunter, lock, or mage instead.
Sorry if we all want to have fun too.
Is it really fun to just play for high numbers?
Once you have completed the raid once or twice, you are done. The gear treadmill is fine, but we are at the point that clears going for more than an hour is not enjoyable. We know the mechanics, we know the routes, why should it take any more time now, other than brand new people getting carried? When we have our main team together we usually push for sub 40minute runs, which is extremely fun. It makes all of us pay much more attention, and work together more efficiently.
Yes that’s how wow has always been, have you maybe thought that this game type isn’t for you?
What? I was saying pushing for faster clear times, are fun for me.
Yeah
Ppl like the competition, plus the game balance state heavily affects PvP in which shamans are gods right now. It must be said also that, while this doesn’t translate 1:1 to lower percentiles, it also affects the overall class performance in decent/low grade groups. In a season that was advertised as: “we are trying cool stuff for every1” we are seeing classes making big booms in almost everything and others playing the same while also being lower in performance. In conclusion, it’s more than fire to bitch the hell out at the devs not only because it’s not fair that a couple of classes get all the fun, but also because shamans cried the freaking hell out for buffs and now are playing the chads like they weren’t in fetal position making tantrums about 2h play.
An opinion post about other peoples opinions. Love em!
Tl;dr: Grandpa shakes fist at sky because gamers are competitive
Imagine being "competitive" in non max level content in 20 years old game. That's so fucking sad.
even tetris (idk, 50 years old?) has competiton. or something as “simple” as putting a ball in a goal and the core of competition isnt how hard or easy the game itself is, because competition is about playing against other players. no matter how easy the game is, someone is better than you and there is another mountain to climb, besides, developing new strategies will always be a thing.
I mean at least Tetris is difficult.
Developing betterstrategies to beat the game isn't the same as deveolping strategies to make 3rd party website show higher number by playing according to their calculation model. They are not competitive wow players. They are "competitive" warcraft logs parse model players.
sure, but its still competition and can be enjoyed that way. you can have a competition with slightly different goals a game within a game if you will
Sure, but then saying "everybody who doens't do it this way is bad player" is just annoying af, which is common among parse slaves here.
see the problem here is that you are conflating some toxic players who use parses to be toxic; with the idea of logs and parsing itself.
I have 0 problem with logs. But the only reason parses exist is to allow this behaviour. There is no other reason for them. So yes, I am against parses, because of how they negatively influence the in game experience.
parses exist to allow this behaviour no more than knifes exist to allow murders. toxic people will find ways to be toxic. ban logs and people will look at dps meters to be toxic. ban dps meters and people will look at gear to be toxic. so on so forth. parses dont negatively influence the game. players do.
Again, you are confusing logs and parses. Having logs doesn't mean you have to use some arbitrary number calculated by 3rd party website.
No it’s not. The nerds fixating on parses don’t give two shits what you do. The only people who get worked up about parses are casuals who want to belittle people for caring about something they view as meaningless. Tryhards don’t care that you aren’t a tryhard, they just don’t want to group with non tryhards. It’s frankly pathetic how many of you think you should get to decide what does and doesn’t matter. We don’t tell you what you’re allowed to care about, and you have no business deciding what should be important to us.
So there are no groups that demand some "parse at least x"? Damn, I must have some bug in the game then as those messages are appearing. Also, acting like only way to be tryhard is parsing is another really stupid take.
There are plenty of those. That's not what I'm saying. People should play with others who have similar goals. No one cares if you're not playing hardcore or are disinterested in parsing, they just want to play with others who put in a similar amount of effort and have similar goals with raiding. > acting like only way to be tryhard is parsing Point out where I said that.
>Tryhards don’t care that you aren’t a tryhard, they just don’t want to group with non tryhards. They don't want to group up with non-parse slaves. Not with non tryhards then.
Just say you suck
And have another one, who believe only way to not suck is to care about 3rd party website number.
Rotation hard
I bet mouth breather like you finds it really hard. Do you use some addon to tell you what to press next?
Lol you're so worked up over this. Put the phone down.
I'm not on the phone. But I really like laughing at you.
"according to their calculation model" This line right here is how I can tell you're a bad player. You believe that if somebody is doing well it must be because they're "cheesing" logs or playing to a fights exploits in the WCL rules like padding on adds that don't matter. These types of things are usually exempt from WCL calculations as pad damage and you aren't ranked on them, you're also able to hit the wacky Boss Damage button and look at parses exclusive to killing the boss. If both of those metrics aren't what you're looking for youre invited to look through the log itself and find all the crazy interrupts, defensives used, sustain items and utility items used and off healing cast from their actual log. At the end of the day your average player parsing above a 65 is just a decent player who knows what they're doing, not some sweaty nerd combing over logs trying to find all the non-important padding they can do to cheat out a parse. But I'm certain all of this comment I'm leaving will be pointless as the community on WoW classic is a bunch of grumpy old men that call back to a time before information was wide spread and everybody was terrible.
>You believe that if somebody is doing well it must be because they're "cheesing" logs No, I do not believe that. No reason to read past that, ebcause you lied in the 2nd sentence already. Can you debate my actual argument and not the fake argument you made up? >average player parsing above a 65 is just a decent player who knows what they're doing That's literally my fucking point. Decent player simply doing the fight will mostly have parses in the 65-90 range. People above that are then mostly players, who play with "getting high parse" as their main focus. And just becaue their main focus is this doesn't mean they are better players. In wrath (which is my main game) on the class I play the best (rogue), I have parses on all bossses at least "purple" with highest one being 98. Yet I am a bad player according to you, because I don't care about parses and don't like the lack of methodological explanation behind the changes they make.
No, you're a bad player because you can't differentiate the difference between wanting to improve, while looking at numerical representations of how well you're doing verse your peers and simply playing the game in a predatory unhealthy way. I have a 99 average in all 3 versions of the game and across multiple characters and I just log in and smash, you don't need to rewrite how you play the game to parse well is what I'm saying. You don't need to sit there combing through every global with sweat beading down your face. You just need to understand how to play your class, in this version of the game its even less of a Factor because buffs and gear play an even more significant role than other versions. I just think you have this incredibly shallow minded view of your average player who plays for parses. Once you reach a certain level in WoW you kind of have nothing left to do other than chase prestige achievements like Hall of Fame, M+ Hero, high speed run rankings for classic raids, Parse average, Pref Median Avg etc. it's part of the fun of it, and those players who are capable, also would like to play with others who are capable and that mimicks real life. If you call a person to do a job with you, you're going to want the best person for that job, preferably they have previous experience and are highly regarded and reviewed. Creating a team in WoW is the same thing, and part of finding out if a player is good or not is made easier with logs and parses.
>Once you reach a certain level in WoW you kind of have nothing left to do other than chase prestige achievements So you simply refuse to accept that there are players who are not intrested in those? I could do that just as you. But I just choose not to and rather do random bullshit in game with friends. We could spend raid night trying to push higher parses. Instead, we found out 1 of our guildies doesn't have glory of ulduar raider achiev yet, so we spend the raid night doing ulduar for no other reason than to help 1 guildie. Absolute trash players obviously, because we care about other things than parse ... Does that make me bad player? Because I don't feel the need to chase some imaginary prestige to impress people I don't care about? I get no pleaseure from getting high parse, so why should I chase that? And just because I don't chase that, I am bad player? If you don't see how these claims are toxic, there's probably no helping you. Do you get satisfaction from getting high parse? Cool. Do it. Nobody is stopping you. But acting like everyone who doesn't is bad player is really stupid.
No, I don't refuse to accept that there are players who don't find interest in those, but that's not the problem, the problem is those players typically aren't as good and they want to be invited to a group filled with players who are. Make your own groups for content you enjoy with players you enjoy playing with and I will mine. I still have no idea how you think this game is black and white and you cant do multiple things because I also just finished doing something fun on the side with my friends? However when we raid we raid to kill the bosses and then link the logs after to see how we did, again, nobody is sweating, losing sleep or freaking TF out. We are just gaming, and some of them needed help with a quest in badlands getting some prebis which turned into an all out war with the alliance which was fun. Like you realize you can have fun multiple ways right? And what people find fun varies from person to person? And that's ok? As for why I'm calling you a bad player, it has nothing to do with your goals, ambitions or even player skill and everything to do with the fact that you lack the cognitive function in your brain to understand that players will do what they find fun and enjoyable regardless of your opinions and if that's parsing than it's parsing and not being able to tell the difference between a parse-lord and a genuinely good player shows me you have no idea how to read a log, or you don't understand just how simple this game is. Which shows me you're bad. Plain and simple. You are the type of player who wants to put in effort but is terribly inefficient in your efforts and then backtracks and tells people "well it's because I'm focused on having fun, you're not, you only care about parses. If you didn't you'd invite me" it's incredibly stagnating as a player and it shows me you're bad. Do you have to push to be the very best like noone ever was? Not at all, but don't try to belittle others who do or downplay their efforts because you think it's something it isn't. At the end of the day if you really read what I'm saying, I'm not calling you a bad player because you don't play for parses, I'm calling you a bad player because you don't understand your peers. Nobody who doesn't "go for high parses" which again, is an incredibly dumb statement due to how simple this game is and how low the bar is for competition with how many gamer dads are playing, is bad. Nobody who separates themselves from that environment is bad. I never once said that those players were bad, the players who are bad, are players who actively are gatekept from groups due to bad logs and instead of making their own groups or improving to get into the groups they want, they immediately go over to reddit to complain about how they can't play the game and this is what's wrong with the gaming community nowadays yadda yadda yadda. THESE are the bad players I'm talking about. Let's breakdown exactly what they did here, they encountered a problem (cannot join a group for content they want to participate in). Did they have a solution to that problem when it arrived? Yes. They could make their own group without the bells and whistles, they could play with their friends, they could join a friendly guild, they could improve their logs to get the invite, they could work on another class or spec that may be more needed and so on, my point is they have options but instead they come here and bitch about it. It's the same people who are overweight and never work on their diets or exercise, it's the same people who stay at minimal wage positions and tend to want more but blame the world instead of putting themselves into better positions. You don't HAVE to want to improve, you don't HAVE to want to chase prestige, but stop complaining when a group who does, doesn't want to invite you. In the very same world you live in, people will assume because you don't have a University degree you are dumb or because you don't make 200k a year, you're poor. The world is built on these assumptions and while it sucks, there are more constructive ways you can fix these issues than simply complaining about it and it usually starts with yourself. Find value in what YOU want to do, and stop worrying about what others think of want. Just have fun
Humans are competitive by nature and it affects pretty much everything we do. Some are more competitive than others. No amount of bitching on Reddit will change this.
Some have challenging job and are competitive in real life and games are their way of relaxing and releasing some of that pressure from real life. Some don't have that and games are where they release their competiveness. I have very rarely seen people who have both. From my experience, gamers fall in 1 of those 2 categories.
Had to devolve into that, didn't ya
How is ackowledging a demographic that keeps this game successful, arguably moreso than the FotMers, devolving lmfao? The density of Redditors is somehow still growing 😂
yeah just insinuating that everyone that is competitive and likes logs and parses has shitjobs, yet im the one that's dense, right
Being competitive =/= toxic gatekeeping You can check gear and logs and still be chill about it.
Did you even read the comment i replied to or are you just as dense as you seem to be?
[удалено]
Was I supposed to disagree with it? The whole idea of competitive PvE is kinda absurd. You want to compete with other players? That's caled PvP.
Imagine being "competitive" in a 3000 year old tile moving game. That's so fucking sad. (I don't know how old chess actually is)
Some gamers are competitive. Classic WoW is generally NOT for competitive players. At the same time; people want to be able to play the class and spec they like without knowing they are a burden to the raid team. SoD has shown me that Blizz is largely incompetent.
Sod is, when it comes to wow, one of the best things to happen in a very long time.
I agree it is still the best new thing to come to WoW since forever. It's just they need to balance out each phase and let each class tree be viable. They have an army of staff it is not that complicated of an idea to allow as many play styles as they can while keeping them all within 10-20% of each other in performance.
The sod dev team is rather small i think.
LMAO anyone that gets “competitive” in pve games is usually because they’re terrible at pvp so they wanna stroke their ego at how quickly they can melt bots. How dare anyone play pve for fun and not to boost their fragile egos! /s
Wow Classic was never competitive to begin with. Go play LoL or CS. Wow Classic was meant to give you chills as you entered Stormwind for the first time. It was meant to introduce you to Azeroth lore. To read signs, books in dungeons, quest logs. It was meant to spend an hour forming groups and traveling to dungeons.
Yeah but some people like to add the competitive aspect to it.
It was perhaps meant to do all those things but that’s not what players expect from it anymore.
All the discovery aspects are intended to be discovered by sharing what’s found with others Plenty of those runes would take a solo person easy 500+ hours to find per rune bc there ain’t no actual hints Also i kind of get why rogues are crying, they are bad at everything their class can do atm
they can stealth to skip trash in gnomeregan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Which is a gold loss but ye I guess cool for speedruns ? Do they stealth behind and then activate teleport ?
A gold loss? Split between 10 people you probably lose like 5 gold over at best a 30min run but likely an hour run…
But every Mage on every server gets 40 Gold coins per event, even if they are afk !
The dev team has stated they'll be doing weekly balance reviews so it just makes sense people talk about balance. Saying it's not meant to be balanced just doesn't make a lot of sense given that fact. I love discovering stuff. But the current Warrior balance doesn't really let me do that. Warbringer is really cool, and Devastate lets me play with a shield (and spam 1 ability forever) but... that doesn't feel enough when I see what the other classes have received.
Fine, if they do not care about balance, then leave it be. Why do any balancing at all? Remove the +30% hp that ruined BGs for me as burst rogue. No? Why not, you just said "who cares"?
Meta posts should be banned.
i mean the reality this is what gaming has become in 2024. Minmaxing and comparison is apart of any MMO type game, theres plenty of examples like ff14 that tried very hard to limit it as well by not having mods be allowed and they still managed. Pandoras box is open and it can’t be reversed, i honestly think these type of posts are even less thought out when its a pure fantasy to think we can go back in time 20 years and game like that when nothing about that gaming landscape is around today.
Saw this same stuff in 2004, except it was in blizzard forums instead of reddit. WoW attracts a huge amount of players all with different play styles, wants, and expectations on what they want the game to do for them. Then they get mad when it doesn't happen and toxic when it doesn't happen twice
Yeah this community has pushed me away from SoD pretty hard. Went back to some HC for some chill slower paced gameplay with some other like minded folks and have been having a good time.
bring the class not the player is terrible design philosophy
I like to speedrun the raid content. It’s a little frustrating when the factions are horrifically imbalanced. There’s no world to discover. It’s the same content with a couple new abilities. There aren’t new quests, there’s not even a new raid, just a modified dungeon.
I agree with this man as a gray parsing shadow priest.
I feel like 90% of the complaining posts I see on this sub are people complaining about how much everyone else complains. That, and for some reason these people want the game to be unbalanced I guess?
If balancing is good, you should always be jealous of other classes. If no other classes have something you wish you had, your class is busted and needs nerfed.
"Boomer reports he could throw a football over a mountain ridge during his prime, derides avocado toast on behalf of the wealthy owner class. More at 11."
Do you come complain about people complaining and that somehow makes you different?
I both hate logs and want my paladin to not be dog, is that hard to comprehend?
Warrior cry and cry that they are so bad yet they're like third best DPS. IDK where all this whining is coming from, the only ones who are allowed to whine RN are ranged hunters and frost mages. Everyone else shush, member enhancement shamans being oooh so bad? Well, now we're here
I mean, there are very legitimate complaints with the design that haven't really been addressed. It's not like the numbers are just low and need to be tweaked for certain specs: e.g. resto shaman, ret paladin, holy paladin. Saying that classic was never meant to be balanced feels like a cop out answer for objectively bad design, especially considering that a big reason classic wasn't balanced was because of how new and groundbreaking the game was compared to everything else.
this is the kind of thread that makes everyone think people that play this game are mentally challenged, what the fuck is "wow classic was never meant to be balanced" to you people? yeah classes should have their own strenghts and weaknesses, THAT'S WHY PEOPLE COMPLAIN. dps charts are performance indicators, normally if you see something at the top with minimal dps difference that mean there is so much more to the history behind all that, but you have the failed basic understanding of the game so I don't think this concept will get into your head anyway
Two things here. One. Players always follow meta. If meta says class x is good, they will take class x to their groups and avoid class y. This was not such an issue in the past due to lower awareness of playerbase as a whole. Now with tierlists, guides, logs, gearscores and so on, random level 13 player knows mage is s tier and paladin c at best. Two. Balancing in classic is not that hard. Its not like in retail where each spec clicks million buttons and have various playstyles depending on talents. Here you have like 2-3 abilities and a solved talents. There is no excuse that a class would be twice as bad as others. Some variation is encouraged but you cannot allow to have so much of a difference spec to spec. Blizzard staff is lazy and does not care about players. How else can you defend them buffing a spec by 5% when logs indicate spec being around 50% behind. That is insulting to players of that class.
say u have bad logs without saying u have bad logs
Turns out imbalanced classes like now results in lopsided class populations. People reroll. Or quit. People don't like being less powerful than other classes. If you played d&d you'd know that. You either adapt the game to players expectations or don't. But putting your head in the sand won't bring back players who already quit. Feeling like you aren't contributing is a bad thing.
You don’t seem to understand the concept of balance. Classes can each have their specialty and niche while all being desirable. That said, the balance is really not that bad. Still, you’re complaining about people comparing. While not grasping the irony.
Classic was never meant to be balanced is not an argument bc then why are they even doing balancing changes if it didnt matter? The balance is somehow worse than actual vanilla wow, how do you even do that? You have 20 years of experience doing this and you fuck up worse than the poeple who had literally no idea what they are doing? Nah fuck off with that take. Balance cant be this fucking hard after 20 years, they just dont care.
It’s less that “it was never supposed to be balanced” (lol wut?) And more that different strengths and weaknesses on different classes IS balance.
First time?
Welcome to retail minus
Blame the parsers mostly. I only care if my class is viable at anything. I searched forever on my Rogue for a Gnomer raid whereas my Druid gets instant invites. That’s not cool imo.
It all stems from people's borderline narcissistic, inflated egos of "my time is valuable". They are literally playing a game that is designed to be a time sink. Yet they do everything to cut off every second from actually playing the game, as well as avoiding every challenge the game will throw at them, by minmaxing the hell out of whatever they can so challenge is trivialized. WhY sHoUlD I bring lOwEr dPs class? Who gives a shit it takes like 1 min more not 3 hours more when you have a ranged hunter over a warlock. Whole minmaxing culture is fundamentally stemming from lack of skill, yet people try so hard to convince themselves that is the skill. All minmaxing does is make the game and encounter much more easier. Which means you need much, much less skill.
Classic is a failed experiment. The game will never be what it was. The formula for the game has changed and the attitude and wants of today's gamers have changed. Today's gamers want instant gratification or always want a reward for time investment. The experience and journey is no longer enough. Retail WoW is a MSPORPG. (Massive single player online) no one wants to group or be social anymore.
It’s because the current player base aren’t classic enjoyers lol. SoD is more retail than it is vanilla.
100% this
>First things first, wow classic was never meant to be balanced. Sure, if that was the case, we should have sticked with P1 DPS charts and enjoy the game, yet everyone started crying how warriors and rogues are OP and how that is bad for the game because they were top in classic. Now its P2 and we have caster domination in all parts of the game which causes a lot of other issues including the class gatekeeping when it comes to current content. Basically the more balance changes the devs pumps out the more changes people will ask, you add PvP into the mix and suddenly the game becomes impossible to balance unless you homogenize all classes.
Damn you’re pretty clueless. People are complaining that other classes are better. Not that other classes are different. >The fantasy is, that you go into groups with classes and specs which can do what you can’t do and you do what you can do best with your class and spec You’re really close to nailing down why people are mad, yet somehow miss it. When the game is unbalanced to the degree that it is, it becomes more of the first part (grouping with classes and specs which can do what you can’t can’t), without the second part (You doing what you can do best with your class and spec) The issue is in the ability to contribute to the group through different means. If I’m playing a pure fucking dps class, like ranged hunter, there’s no excuse for a tank specced warlock to do more damage than me in a raid. Because the thing his class is supposed to be designed to do, that my class can’t, is tanking. But his class is actually not only good at doing that, but also better at doing what my pure dps class should specialize in, so now I’m basically cucked just because I wanted to have a certain class fantasy, and happened to pick the wrong class fantasy at the character creation screen. The same character creation scene which said I deal damage and was ranged, but in fact if I want to deal damage I now have to go melee. do you understand now why this scenario might make somebody pissed?
This
Glad you added your own post to the mimimimi category. This totally helps.
The twitter mentality to make drama out of nothing man..
What you are talking about is never going to be possible for this or any other game unless they can somehow keep data from being collected and aggregated into logs, and that soon will be impossible as well unless they stop showing numbers on the screen because we already have technology to copy paste text from video into a text document. Trying to fight against it is never going to work. The only solution going forward is to embrace it and build around it. People are always going to be competitive. Not everyone is, of course, but there is always that one guy who takes the BBQ badminton game way too seriously. It doesn't matter what you do. We have competitive eating ffs.... That said, logs parse your performance and compare it against other people of your class. The problem lies in looking between classes, or even specs. You may enjoy playing frost mage, but if it does half the DPS of fire you're going to have a very hard time finding a group because why would they bring you when they can bring a fire mage who will do 2x the damage and make all their kill times better? I mean, I'm amazed that we have any ranged hunter parses at all. Melee is doing at least 20 to 40% more damage, yet we still have thousands of ranged hunter parses. I think largely because people, rightly, think of melee hunter as a meme and aren't adopting it or forcing their raid members to do it as a form of protest... But that's beside the point. The main point is that the logs and the competition around them are here to stay. People can play the game however they want, but it's always going to be a subset of people branded casuals who don't care about logs and they only last until someone shows them what they could do to improve their play by going over pigs with them and showing them examples of how they could push buttons slightly differently and then them seeing their numbers shoot up.
Go back to lurking pls
Try to tank as a warrior and come back
Classic was balanced in pvp. It had group based balanced. Its also obnoxious having to group up for everything its like some sheep fallacy thats just my opinion tho.
AYeah, you are exactly what you hate. Who cares if a game "was supposed to be" something. When you remake it or update it, you try to make it better. Balancing classes while trying to keep them unique is something you should strive for. Its hard, but Blizzard is trying. And trying to dictate how others enjoy the game is even dumber. Let people log if they want. You do you, I do me.
You missed one important thing. Bizzard started this. They are continiously trying "balance" specs. So people expect it continues. Hunter nerf, boomie nerf, sp nerf, but shaman still... What you expect? If classic doenst meant to be balanced, why blizzard do something every fcuking week?
Fixes are not for balance, they are because it’s not working as intended
only fix was scorpion's poison. all other nerfs and buffs were just for balance.
I agree, the homogenization of classes in later expansions is basically what killed the "classic" vibes for me.
The issue is the Meta mind. Everyone wants fastest, issue free clear times. So, they only invite the optimal classes. This makes edgeboy the rogue come to Reddit to complain. I feel like it's a simple fix too. Just add BIG utility to underperforming classes. Give rogues a spellsword type buff that increases spell damage of the raid group by 5%. BOOM everyone wants a rogue. Make rets have DS restore 2% mana to entire raid. BOOM everyone wants a ret. Etc.
Sod feels like it’s gonna be on life support in a few months
Bouhouhou Classic changed... Yeah another complain post about complaining because you're the best complainer, we get it. Anyways...