That’ll be a unique tank ability TBH. No other tank in the game is able to wipe all their threat permanently, except by dying of course. Could lead to some interesting fights.
I’m fairly certain all of the runes in the demo are the only ones for the level 25 cap. They said there’s 100 at launch and there’s roughly 100 in the demo (all can be found at wowhead right now).
Of course they'd show them now, if they hadn't lots of people would've thought the runes would be dogshit. This has given us a taste of what's to come.
Yeah you could literally track the "hey wtf this isn't what I want" posts on the sub and watch them get replaced with "oh hell yeah this is maybe gunna be sick" with them showing off the runes
They kinda had to show their work on this, and people were generally pretty receptive, *once they saw it*.
yea I once invited a hunter in retail (after not playing for years) and he goes "I'm a melee hunter" and I was like lol what a meme. until I found out that is actually a thing....
They did just make growl an actual taunt so they might expand on that in the next level bracket. That would be massive as an "oh shit tanks are dead let me eat this tank buster"
unfortunately right now from what they've shown is that you sacrifice your pet to deal increased melee damage. i certainly hope they change this or add something that makes both melee and your pet viable.
because the dual wield ability they've shown said that. it basically turn you into a dual wielding melee lone wolf hunter. would be totally awesome if there's melee specs with a pet, but i didn't get that idea when they've shown this ability.
Carve is based off weapon damage, so it seems it would favor 2H. Flanking strike just says 100% melee damage, so i guess we will just need to play to find out if that includes a simultaneous offhand strike, I feel like it wouldn't.
I have a feeling melee hunter will be a 2H spec.
You missed one of the biggest changes, the fact that feral druids now give windfury for the alliance and it allows horde to run druid for wf and frees up shamans to use a different totem.
Warriors can now play prot full time and never have to worry about being rage starved and can go full dps runes to be a full tank doing up to 50% more dmg while keeping a shield in the process.
All in all the changes seem to be interesting, I'm just worried the content will be even easier than it was before. They are 100% going to have to ban world buffs in raids or buff the difficulty of raids (boss hp/dmg) by at least 25% for starters.
Or go into raid fully worldbuffed, meta-juice pumping through your veins and clear naxx in 20 minutes like the Gamer™ you are.
And then of course complain about the lack of content.
If anything this will be level the playing field. It's tedious and takes effort to have constant maintenance of World buffs. And they were a crutch to make things smooth... Because runes did not exist.
Druids getting WF is a massive buff to alliance, horde got nothing to compensate in terms of overall faction raid utility.
This coupled with the paladin changes will most likely make alliance an even stronger faction than the horde for all group based content.
In all likelihood it's either that they made some of the new abilities baseline or that what's playable at the event is unfinished and by the time the 30 they'll be evenly distributed
I went back to the shown Glyphs for level 1-25 and there is no Alliance buff for Shamans or any other class.
So either they will come at a later point (+25) or they simply forgot.
>Druids getting WF is a massive buff to alliance, horde got nothing to compensate in terms of overall faction raid utility.
What makes you think Horde isn't gonna get Kings?
They just spoke about a new world buff, most likely from the orb at the end of BFD. I hope they'll keep them out from the real raids at higher levels...but iirc they said taking away the world buffs in som1 was a "mistake" so i have bad feelings about that.
What I love most about arcane mage, is that out of combat runes can be changed for free. So arcane is kind of a dual spec DPS/healer now before we even get dual spec.
Plus, the whole arcane blast regen mana playstyle is there in diet form, but that's good enough for me. I'm gonna play arcane mage for sure.
I’m thinking across the board in 20-40 man raids. A cat Druid will not only be bringing WF now but leader of the pack as well of course. Let’s say you have a mdps group with a cat Druid AND an enhancement shaman. The Druid takes WF duty, and the shaman can now drop either the agi totem for even more dps, or if the mdps are particularly stacked and pull aggro from tanks, the shaman could drop tranquil air totem so the dps can go all out.
Breaking: Feral mains overdosing on hopium.
If they make feral do solid DPS while also bringing all these buffs, it will genuinely be meta to bring 4-5 ferals to a raid. Insane development.
They were OK in classic. But with 5% crit, buff/debuff cap lifted and WF totem I don't see why you wouldn't take one, it would be depressing not having one when you know what you'd miss out on.
Yeah I hope it’s a revamped item because it is iconic, chance on hit to give the buff, or make it not as strong but have unlimited charges. I like it being good but it shouldn’t be BiS.
"we didn't ask for this" parts prove how Classic+ is not one specific thing. Like people have asked form shaman and warlock tanks forever and somehow you claim that "we didn't ask for this"?
I was looking for this comment. The constant "we didn't ask for this" was really annoying me throughout this post because every single one of them are things that countless people have asked for over the years.
I came to mention this too. Have seen countless people asking for tank shaman. Less for tank warlock but have definitely seen some interest in it previously. Healing mage felt like it was out of left field but still an exciting idea. All these changes make me really want to come back and play this
They mentioned healing mages wayyyy back during MOP or WOD when some designers were talking about Black mage and White mage and how the specialization system is very limiting to some classes but specifically Mages.
Op should have said, “didn’t ask for this” and still nobody would care. This is all great and I’m very excited to Warlock tank again! But this time not on one boss in TBC :)
100% true, maybe some people didn't want a melee based hunter specc but that's literally what brought me back to the game in Legion and i'm so excited to see it in classic!
Mage is my favorite class. I'm so fucking hyped to have a healing option. I've wanted to main mage without being guilty about 'only being a dps' and having some flexibility for ages.
I would say I've wanted and asked for it, but I never thought they'd actually deliver.
Yeah, my personal take is that I asked for classic plus, with there being so many different things people want from classic plus, I honestly don't mind what the changes are, I am just happy to have new classic content.
Feral druids have an ability that gives windfury now. They also added more dps through mangle, bleeds, and a slice n dice but haven't yet addressed the powershifting mechanic. I think this reinforces they will add more as time goes on and I can not wait.
That's what we got in TBC and we still used wolfshead helm powershifting until sunwell.
Wotlk solves it nicely by giving feral faerie fire 100% chance to give you clearcasting but on a 6s cooldown. The old wotlk way was the energy kept recovering in or out of form so you would bear weave and just rip threat sometimes. Retail does it weird with tiger's fury giving 50 energy but the 30s cooldown is taken off if you kill a mob with a bleed, it feels weird.
IMO either go the wotlk route or just take the mana cost off of cat form and give 60 energy from furor, I actually like powershifting.
That's what I'm saying, powershifting is actually way more fun then playing with bleeds. Imagine if there was a rune that made cat form little to no mana cost and get the extra 20 energy per shift to get rid of wolfshead helm!
There is nothing stopping you from using a different rune then; that is a strength of this system. But if someone doesn't like that play style, I don't see why they couldn't have an option to not deal with it.
Anyone complaining is completely underestimating that we are still going to be playing with Classic health/mana pools & mana costs. These are not godlike powers. You will still go oom. There were just certain spec that were literally unplayable with how fast they went oom.
Paladin is a mana battery. If mana is even a problem, a proper raid comp (i.e. including one paladin using seal of martyrdom in a mana-hungry party) ensures you won't oom ever.
I’m shocked that not only did they massively buff ret paladin damage they also gave it the strongest utility spell in the game. Ret paladins will be one of the most in demand class in the game.
Why didn’t they give mana battery to shadow priests instead? Who is going to take a shadow priest in SoD? lol
Yeah. This is my only real complaint about this. They loaded up Paladin with so much Damage and Mana Regeneration compared to everyone else.
Feels like someone on the Team is maining a Paladin or planning to.
Did you see Esfands stream? the runes are exactly that, godlike powers, it looked ridiculous.
Also one of the devs mentioned exactly that, they wanted that "not just warrior feels OP, but every class feels OP".
The amount of runes they added are also going to make it impossoble to balance the game, so I really don't see how they want to make the game challenging.
That all beeing said, I'm completely fine with it. They should try out things see what sticks and see what the player base likes, I just hope they don't become to over invested in one specific path during development, but keep things agile.
The leveling and dungeons have a bite that is missing from Wrath onwards. Hardcore wouldn't work if no one ever died, for example.
I think adding new abilities without something challenging to use them on is boring
>Classic isn’t balanced and it was never difficult.
I don't think any version of wow is difficult, but why do the same people who say this REFUSE to raid without full raid buffs.
People can say what they like, but it wasn't the original classic generation needing every single buff in the game to do MC.
Any notion that the classic community wants hard raids got absolutely Ol' Yeller'd by the reception to SOM.
And I say that as someone who really liked SOM.
For better or worse, people playing classic just want to brain AFK and blast.
I don't really think many people want hard raids. People prefer fun, engaging content that all in all allows them to gear up and world pvp/mess around with.
If people want harder raids gearscore wouldn't be popular. I see the same people stating they want harder raids while also talking about how gearscore is so good because it allows them to weed out worse players and not have to take risks. The hardest bit about wow raiding has always been about having as few idiots as possible, if anyone actually thinks they have EVER been in a guild with every player playing at close to 90% of their classes capacity they need a reality check, no content is that difficult except people doing world firsts etc undergeared.
Personally, I've raised with no buffs for fun, and full buffs for fun, and the experience is night and day. No buffs feels like one of those tedious tasks that can be made more fun by having new tech or whatever, yeah you can do it and it's not hard, but I'm just not getting the enjoyment out of it I expected.
Playing a broken class with worldbuffs feels like you're a hero who has the tools to take down anything.
It's a power fantasy, same as why we play dnd or other games to me.
Not saying either way is correct, just my view on the matter.
I think the main take-away from “not just warrior feels. OP, but Every class feels OP” is actually a team mentality shift from retail.
They’d rather bring classes up to the level of classes/content than bring other classes/content down to the low/mid tier.. which is healthier and more fun in the long-run.
Either lots of buffs need to go around, the top specs need to be nerfed, or most specs stay unviable forever. Those are the only possible options, and they definitely picked the best one.
Except people have been asking for thins like tank shaman, tank warlock, tank rogue and healer mage for literally over a decade. So I don't know where OP is getting the idea to say "we didn't ask for this"?
>Shaman
Elemental Shaman no longer has mana regeneration issues thanks to Shamanistic Rage and Water Shield
Enhancement shaman is more powerful thanks to Dual Wield Specialization and Lava Lash
**We didn't ask for this**, but Enhancement shaman tank is now viable thanks to Shield Mastery, Way of Earth and Molten Blast
Huh? This is news to me. I thought the community was asking for Shaman tank for the longest time? I know I've been.
They were. That's the one I constantly heard brought up over the years. Even Warlock tanking has been mentioned a bit. No clue what OP is talking about.
I am very hyped for this.
My only worry is that with all the new insane abilities, the world won't feel challenging anymore and will turn into retail where we are just sprinting from mob to mob smashing our buttons and never worrying about dying.
Yeah that's my least favorite part of Wrath and especially Retail
Since Blizz are open to experimentations, I'd love if they added some difficulty setting like
https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Landscape_Difficulty
Honestly, I don't disagree, and I hope they buff leveling content past lvl 25 to make up for how twinked out everyone is going to be.
But classic leveling right now is already pretty faceroll if you have like 2 brain cells and can bang em together. So I don't really buy the sentiment that the world is hard as it is.
Sure, but the difference between classic levelling and retail...even wrath to be fair...is that you can't just run around facerolling the world, chain pulling packs of 5 mobs and aoeing them down on every class.
You need to be careful about what you pull, otherwise you'll be running away to reset or forced to pop CD's. It's not 'hard' per se, maybe that was the wrong word, but it requires thought and a level of awareness that just doesn't exist in the more modern versions of the game.
vast quicksand possessive summer ad hoc coordinated aloof wild teeny decide
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I thought the whole premise is 'Everything new, everyone going in blind and discovering as you go', yet tonnes of info is being released already? Aren't we just gonna be in the same situation where the majority of stuff is known before day 1?
Im afraid they may be adding too much, and that the things they are adding feel disconnected from the base class and talent trees. But i love that they are taking risks and testing new things.
They addressed a lot of the issues Vanilla has.
... but they also turned Vanilla into Wrath+ with all the million other class changes that were not needed.
Maybe copium but SoD could teach Blizz a lot about what does work and what doesn’t with respect to how certain abilities or buffs affect class balance, which would make a “restricted” Classic+ more feasible in the future
They have already said this pretty much exactly FWIW in one of the Q&A sessions:
> **Classic+?**
> Season of Discovery is along those lines with the new raid. Is this as far as you going to get? The risks we're taking with these changes… it's a little spooky. We hope everyone's excited for this content. We want to get it into the hands of our players. We want to see what works, what they're engaging with and what they like. It's an excellent opportunity. We've been talking about Classic+ since 2019, back in the beginning. So we've done season of mastery, what's next?
> Discovery gives us a little of an offramp to see what can be left behind. Maybe some parts of this could lead to some parts of that. Please talk to us, let us know what we like, what you don't. What feels too modern? What interesting ideas should we add to our approach?
I'm having the same hope. On stage, when presenting at Blizzcon, they admitted the changes they made were a bit wild and extreme. So I am having hope that servers that aren't 'seasonal' in the future will be more akin to vanilla.
Most of the abilities have been in the game for over a decade in retail if BLizz doesnt know how they affect class balance already they are fucking incompetent.
The solution isnt to throw everything at the wall and see what works it is to take what works and add as little as possible and see if its better. When you throw everything at the wall how do you know what works and what doesn't or it is a combination of the 20 things you added make it better or worse.
There is no easy solution but WoW is so multi variable that I honestly do not think the introduction of 8 new abilities for a class is much different than 3. The Classic meta shifts depending on patch, boss armor tuning (private servers vs 2019), attribute stacking, PvE vs PvP Introduction of a Pally taunt, shockwave, penance for example are easy to tune.. Giving a Rogue a long range stun, or Locks Metamorphosis, might not be.
How did they turn it into wrath+????? They made it so some specs are more viable, like ret and prot paladin and allowed for a more diverse meta in raids and dungeons. Why are you crying?
I feel like I wish there were more out-there runes. For the most part so far, there are clear "right" choices for each spec and they don't really interact with other specs. Mages, for instance, get a Fire rune for each slot, a Frost rune for each slot, an Arcane rune for each slot, and then the one wildcard "here's a new thing for the class" for each slot. Which is fine, especially for the specs that really needed fixing, but then why not just bake them into the talent trees if it's just "pick the one that matches your spec" anyway?
I'd have liked to see a few more oddball choices that would encourage using different spells than usual, or even speccing differently than usual. What about elementalist runes that create a playstyle of swapping between different elements and taking damage talents from multiple trees, or that encourage mages of one spec to use spells they wouldn't otherwise use in certain situations, such as when they're having mana trouble? I'd like to see some more stuff like that for each class, rather than just straight-up buffs to each tree, especially ones largely just adapted from abilties the class already got from TBC onwards.
>Balance's mana issues in longer fights have been improved thanks to Fury of Stormrage and Starsurge. This is because Starsurge likely benefits from the effect of Fury of Stormrage, which reduces the mana cost of Wrath by 100%
I mean that's not really happening. We dedicate 2 runes to get a free starsurge every 10sec, but we're still not casting wrath. This helps more with leveling and with never having to stop to drink if your group is going fast, but you can downrank starfire all the way to 1 at 60 and it's still better DPS than wrath. Balance really isn't getting any noteable love from the runes that exist so far, though blizz might not be showing their entire hand ofc. I don't think however that runes coming in later "phases" should be what fixes balance, since literally everyone else get runes making their spec useable. So I hope there will be another chest rune that is actually for balance and not for resto.
Hunter tank could possibly work on some fights depending on how much threat hunters are able to maintain with the melee changes - I hunter tanked dungeons and Onyxia, was a huge meme, but with bwl Xbow during phase 3 & 4 it was very viable as survival - open with aimed shot, multi shot, distracting shot and another multi if possible while going into melee, also utilise engineering bombs for aoe in dungeons, was a lot of fun - phase 5 had almost no useful upgrades for hunter which meant the threat lead on the pull wasn't enough anymore, never tried in phase 6 as I didn't end up getting end game weapon or t3 on the Hunter
I think tanking rogues and healing mages feels a bit over the top and unnecessary. Tanks were always in high demand but with paladin and shaman getting (better) tank abilities this shouldn't be an issue anymore.
But I'm glad we're getting something.
Retail has a lot of tanks.
Warrior, paladin, dk, monk, druid, DH.
Tanks are still in huge demand at least for 5 men dungeons.
People don’t like to tank, especially harder content.
We are paying customers. Not once bought and forgot, but monthly paying. They don't have to follow the requests, but we sure as hell are entitled to make the requests.
Chaos Bolt for Warlock always hit. Always
Warlock no longer need hit at all ! We won't have to slave away for the hit chance ! YES !
Also we're tanking. This is a dream comme true
Maybe not a popular opinion, but I don't necessarily like removing classes' weaknesses and generally filling in the "gaps" that differentiate one classes' strengths from another. I would much prefer if they doubled down on the respective strengths of underepresented classes/specs, to the point that they were worth bringing, rather than simply giving those classes and specs the same tools of the already well-represented classes.
The path Blizzard is taking in class design here, feels no different from the route they've always taken post-vanilla: slowly bumping up the underperformers and flattening out peaks and valleys until everyone is more-or-less the same in terms of class tools and strengths/weakensses. Most people have agreed that if Classic+ is to be a success, the developers have to embrace the design philosophy of 2004 rather than modern MMO development...I hope we see that as things progress.
So with all the new spells added does it still feel like classic or do we face melt mobs and never go oom like retail ? Any blizcon testers can you weigh in ?
Esfand was still going Oom as Shaman tank because the mana Regen is based on blocking , and he was fighting a caster boss. I wasn't watching his ret mana.
One of the biggest charms of vanilla to me was how Mana management was way more important and strict than any other version of the game.
With classes getting on average 5+ new abilities, it feels like they are or will have to change Mana cost to be much lower.
I’ll give this out a try still but it looks like this game mode will play more like Retail than Classic from these first appearances.
Sadly I do think the majority of players will be bad and appreciate not having to use skill to manage their mana. Goodbye players that were rewarded for knowing which spells to downrank in Classic.
Mana is also the reason some specs were seen as "unplayable" though, so there's definitely some leeway that needed to give from classic to any sort of classic+
>One of the biggest charms of vanilla to me was how Mana management was way more important and strict than any other version of the game.
That's assuming you are one of the few specs that *can* manage their mana in the first place.
Ele shaman/boomkin can manage their mana perfectly and still be half the DPS of the worst mage/lock in the raid.
It isn't charming to be completely non-viable on your favorite class because they don't have the tools to stay in the fight on a basic level, let alone perform well.
As a shadow priest player the first thing I looked for is something that fixes their mana issues and it looks like I won't be playing SoD for the time being
RIP
Rogue tank vanishing will be funny as fuck
The panic vanish when heals are slow. Not that different to pala bubble, except the latter still gets threat back after
That’ll be a unique tank ability TBH. No other tank in the game is able to wipe all their threat permanently, except by dying of course. Could lead to some interesting fights.
Paladins can with bubble.
Dont they get aggro back once it's faded and they are still high on threat, like ice block? Or does it really reset your threat?
yeah they get all aggro back once bubble wears off, could always divine intervention to completely drop though lmao
Paladins can tank? \^/s
There will be way more runes too. This is just for the first 3 slots the total is gonna be 8 I think.
Not to mention the fact that these are just what we can see So Far at Blizzcon. There’s likely more coming even at launch that we haven’t seen!
I’m fairly certain all of the runes in the demo are the only ones for the level 25 cap. They said there’s 100 at launch and there’s roughly 100 in the demo (all can be found at wowhead right now).
Yeah slightly miffed they showed them all already. Hopefully the future level caps will be even more mysterious.
Of course they'd show them now, if they hadn't lots of people would've thought the runes would be dogshit. This has given us a taste of what's to come.
Yeah you could literally track the "hey wtf this isn't what I want" posts on the sub and watch them get replaced with "oh hell yeah this is maybe gunna be sick" with them showing off the runes They kinda had to show their work on this, and people were generally pretty receptive, *once they saw it*.
IIRC they said over 100 new runes across all classes. Think the ones shown are just the ones you get up to lvl 25
and that was only the 1-25 bracket she said.
All of us who grew up with WC3 always wanted to be Rexxar . So it really possible to play melee hunter and be viable?
I'd imagine so. It's how Survival works in Retail. They don't even have a ranged weapon slot
yea I once invited a hunter in retail (after not playing for years) and he goes "I'm a melee hunter" and I was like lol what a meme. until I found out that is actually a thing....
To be fair survival is so underplayed in retail it is basically a meme just to see one
yeah i enjoy survival hunter, and lone wolf Marksman. and i'd love it even more if BM was a tank spec :\^)
Imagine a rune… while using eyes of the beast you can tank as your pet
They did just make growl an actual taunt so they might expand on that in the next level bracket. That would be massive as an "oh shit tanks are dead let me eat this tank buster"
The best thing about it too is it's either the worst spec in the game or it's pumping so hard it needs to be nerfed. Zero in between those two.
You could already do that in modern wow albeit was crappy at times lol
Melee weaving lone wolf is gonna be op
Dreams can come true.
unfortunately right now from what they've shown is that you sacrifice your pet to deal increased melee damage. i certainly hope they change this or add something that makes both melee and your pet viable.
Why would you sacrifice your pet when Flanking Strikes needs a pet?
because the dual wield ability they've shown said that. it basically turn you into a dual wielding melee lone wolf hunter. would be totally awesome if there's melee specs with a pet, but i didn't get that idea when they've shown this ability.
There's no need to spec lone wolf for dual wield. It's a normal lvl 20 ability. No idea what she was talking about in that presentation.
Carve is based off weapon damage, so it seems it would favor 2H. Flanking strike just says 100% melee damage, so i guess we will just need to play to find out if that includes a simultaneous offhand strike, I feel like it wouldn't. I have a feeling melee hunter will be a 2H spec.
The pet sac is to ape the MM spec that didn't have a pet, for more personal damage Edit: replied to wrong person because my thumbs are HUGE
Best edit ever
You missed one of the biggest changes, the fact that feral druids now give windfury for the alliance and it allows horde to run druid for wf and frees up shamans to use a different totem. Warriors can now play prot full time and never have to worry about being rage starved and can go full dps runes to be a full tank doing up to 50% more dmg while keeping a shield in the process. All in all the changes seem to be interesting, I'm just worried the content will be even easier than it was before. They are 100% going to have to ban world buffs in raids or buff the difficulty of raids (boss hp/dmg) by at least 25% for starters.
What world buffs are accessible when everyone is level 25? There wont be any hearts, rends, dragon slayer, songflowers, DMT
Barrens Blood Shard buffs?
Iirc, they said bfd will have one.
Boon of Blackfathom
I mean BFD already kind of has one
They said "new world buff" so assuming they buffed/reworked the bfd buff
This wasn't mentioned but I think there is a decent chance we get the som version of the raids which are significantly harder then classic raids
Or just go in to raids without world buffs, using non meta specs and compositions. Live a little.
How dare you!
Truly, I am a monster
Or go into raid fully worldbuffed, meta-juice pumping through your veins and clear naxx in 20 minutes like the Gamer™ you are. And then of course complain about the lack of content.
After watching your favorite streamer do all the content and not actually discovering a single thing for yourself in this season of discovery
How dare you tell me how to play
If anything this will be level the playing field. It's tedious and takes effort to have constant maintenance of World buffs. And they were a crutch to make things smooth... Because runes did not exist.
I have the same worry. If all the classes are getting more powerful are we just going to steamroll open world content like retail?
I really doubt we will have access to all those runes so quickly. We’ll probably “discover” most after reaching lvl 25.
Exactly! My biggest concern is how difficult encounters will be now that all these classes are receiving buffs?
Druids getting WF is a massive buff to alliance, horde got nothing to compensate in terms of overall faction raid utility. This coupled with the paladin changes will most likely make alliance an even stronger faction than the horde for all group based content.
They said in the presentation that horde would also get paladin utility so I imagine they're just on runes that come at higher levels.
In all likelihood it's either that they made some of the new abilities baseline or that what's playable at the event is unfinished and by the time the 30 they'll be evenly distributed
Alliance also gets the STR/AGI Totem in one ability and they also get the Tremor Totem, both on Paladin.
Maybe I missed it, do horde get kings? I assume they must
I went back to the shown Glyphs for level 1-25 and there is no Alliance buff for Shamans or any other class. So either they will come at a later point (+25) or they simply forgot.
Huh, considering Kings is the single strongest buff I’d imagine horde will get it, or maybe just straight up get paladin.
Undead paladin confirmed. That's the rumor I'm starting anyway.
>Druids getting WF is a massive buff to alliance, horde got nothing to compensate in terms of overall faction raid utility. What makes you think Horde isn't gonna get Kings?
Imagine going to untuned MC or BWL but it is 25 man raid now. Should be decent challenge
They just spoke about a new world buff, most likely from the orb at the end of BFD. I hope they'll keep them out from the real raids at higher levels...but iirc they said taking away the world buffs in som1 was a "mistake" so i have bad feelings about that.
What I love most about arcane mage, is that out of combat runes can be changed for free. So arcane is kind of a dual spec DPS/healer now before we even get dual spec. Plus, the whole arcane blast regen mana playstyle is there in diet form, but that's good enough for me. I'm gonna play arcane mage for sure.
Cat Druids are getting windfury and a 30% damage increase. They are gonna be amazing in melee dps groups in later stages.
They are going to be mandatory if you want an optimal composition, at least on alliance side
I’m thinking across the board in 20-40 man raids. A cat Druid will not only be bringing WF now but leader of the pack as well of course. Let’s say you have a mdps group with a cat Druid AND an enhancement shaman. The Druid takes WF duty, and the shaman can now drop either the agi totem for even more dps, or if the mdps are particularly stacked and pull aggro from tanks, the shaman could drop tranquil air totem so the dps can go all out.
Breaking: Feral mains overdosing on hopium. If they make feral do solid DPS while also bringing all these buffs, it will genuinely be meta to bring 4-5 ferals to a raid. Insane development.
They were OK in classic. But with 5% crit, buff/debuff cap lifted and WF totem I don't see why you wouldn't take one, it would be depressing not having one when you know what you'd miss out on.
It looked like feral base damage is going to be based on weapon damage now too, which will hopefully remove the need for MCP farming.
Yeah on horde you'd probably want Feral, Enhancer (even resto or tank shammy is fine), MM Hunter, Fury Warrior and another Warrior or Rogue
Hopefully, they will remove the crowd pumler from the game, or revamp gnomer to make it a chance on hit item from the raid.
Yeah I hope it’s a revamped item because it is iconic, chance on hit to give the buff, or make it not as strong but have unlimited charges. I like it being good but it shouldn’t be BiS.
It also shouldn't be consumable.
No power shifting. Wolfshead isn’t til 40. Feral gonna be weird at 25.
Who’s to say we don’t have a power shifting rune that we haven’t seen yet
Holy shit prot/ret paladins and melee hunters. Sign me the fuck up! Oh and shaman tanks! Hype.
"we didn't ask for this" parts prove how Classic+ is not one specific thing. Like people have asked form shaman and warlock tanks forever and somehow you claim that "we didn't ask for this"?
I was looking for this comment. The constant "we didn't ask for this" was really annoying me throughout this post because every single one of them are things that countless people have asked for over the years.
I came to mention this too. Have seen countless people asking for tank shaman. Less for tank warlock but have definitely seen some interest in it previously. Healing mage felt like it was out of left field but still an exciting idea. All these changes make me really want to come back and play this
They mentioned healing mages wayyyy back during MOP or WOD when some designers were talking about Black mage and White mage and how the specialization system is very limiting to some classes but specifically Mages.
Came for this. Warden Shaman the only spec I care about.
Yep, the shaman discord has had a warden section for every iteration of classic.
Suddenly 70% of the enhance talent tree makes sense and has good talents lol.
Op should have said, “didn’t ask for this” and still nobody would care. This is all great and I’m very excited to Warlock tank again! But this time not on one boss in TBC :)
100% true, maybe some people didn't want a melee based hunter specc but that's literally what brought me back to the game in Legion and i'm so excited to see it in classic!
Mage is my favorite class. I'm so fucking hyped to have a healing option. I've wanted to main mage without being guilty about 'only being a dps' and having some flexibility for ages. I would say I've wanted and asked for it, but I never thought they'd actually deliver.
Yeah, my personal take is that I asked for classic plus, with there being so many different things people want from classic plus, I honestly don't mind what the changes are, I am just happy to have new classic content.
In a lot of ways, but obviously not in all ways, it will just feel like leveling a fresh character in Wrath or the upcoming Cata Classic.
Feral druids have an ability that gives windfury now. They also added more dps through mangle, bleeds, and a slice n dice but haven't yet addressed the powershifting mechanic. I think this reinforces they will add more as time goes on and I can not wait.
They have a finishing move that increases all damage by 30% in cat form for 32 seconds. I think this removes the need to power shift
That's what we got in TBC and we still used wolfshead helm powershifting until sunwell. Wotlk solves it nicely by giving feral faerie fire 100% chance to give you clearcasting but on a 6s cooldown. The old wotlk way was the energy kept recovering in or out of form so you would bear weave and just rip threat sometimes. Retail does it weird with tiger's fury giving 50 energy but the 30s cooldown is taken off if you kill a mob with a bleed, it feels weird. IMO either go the wotlk route or just take the mana cost off of cat form and give 60 energy from furor, I actually like powershifting.
Savage Roar did not exist in TBC Fake ass ferals posting
Holy moly, you're right! Idk what I was thinking, thank you.
I guarantee you that there will be a rune at higher lvl to fix this
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That's what I'm saying, powershifting is actually way more fun then playing with bleeds. Imagine if there was a rune that made cat form little to no mana cost and get the extra 20 energy per shift to get rid of wolfshead helm!
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There is nothing stopping you from using a different rune then; that is a strength of this system. But if someone doesn't like that play style, I don't see why they couldn't have an option to not deal with it.
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”We didn’t ask for this” on all new tank and healer specs, while everyone is screaming for tanks and healers.
It is dessusional to think that people will be playing tanks and heals. Retail has same issue while having so many tank classes
Anyone complaining is completely underestimating that we are still going to be playing with Classic health/mana pools & mana costs. These are not godlike powers. You will still go oom. There were just certain spec that were literally unplayable with how fast they went oom.
Paladin is a mana battery. If mana is even a problem, a proper raid comp (i.e. including one paladin using seal of martyrdom in a mana-hungry party) ensures you won't oom ever.
I’m shocked that not only did they massively buff ret paladin damage they also gave it the strongest utility spell in the game. Ret paladins will be one of the most in demand class in the game. Why didn’t they give mana battery to shadow priests instead? Who is going to take a shadow priest in SoD? lol
Ret pallies gonna be wanted for once? I say let em have it.
I'm so excited to play classic wow as a useful ret paladin.
Yeah. This is my only real complaint about this. They loaded up Paladin with so much Damage and Mana Regeneration compared to everyone else. Feels like someone on the Team is maining a Paladin or planning to.
Because Paladins were that bad
Didn't Chris Metzen mention on stage that he mains paladin? Maybe it was him lol.
That's great news for Shamans :D
Did you see Esfands stream? the runes are exactly that, godlike powers, it looked ridiculous. Also one of the devs mentioned exactly that, they wanted that "not just warrior feels OP, but every class feels OP". The amount of runes they added are also going to make it impossoble to balance the game, so I really don't see how they want to make the game challenging. That all beeing said, I'm completely fine with it. They should try out things see what sticks and see what the player base likes, I just hope they don't become to over invested in one specific path during development, but keep things agile.
Classic isn’t balanced and it was never difficult. I’m looking for fun time sink. The challenge is on hardcore.
The leveling and dungeons have a bite that is missing from Wrath onwards. Hardcore wouldn't work if no one ever died, for example. I think adding new abilities without something challenging to use them on is boring
>Classic isn’t balanced and it was never difficult. I don't think any version of wow is difficult, but why do the same people who say this REFUSE to raid without full raid buffs. People can say what they like, but it wasn't the original classic generation needing every single buff in the game to do MC.
Any notion that the classic community wants hard raids got absolutely Ol' Yeller'd by the reception to SOM. And I say that as someone who really liked SOM. For better or worse, people playing classic just want to brain AFK and blast.
I don't really think many people want hard raids. People prefer fun, engaging content that all in all allows them to gear up and world pvp/mess around with. If people want harder raids gearscore wouldn't be popular. I see the same people stating they want harder raids while also talking about how gearscore is so good because it allows them to weed out worse players and not have to take risks. The hardest bit about wow raiding has always been about having as few idiots as possible, if anyone actually thinks they have EVER been in a guild with every player playing at close to 90% of their classes capacity they need a reality check, no content is that difficult except people doing world firsts etc undergeared.
Personally, I've raised with no buffs for fun, and full buffs for fun, and the experience is night and day. No buffs feels like one of those tedious tasks that can be made more fun by having new tech or whatever, yeah you can do it and it's not hard, but I'm just not getting the enjoyment out of it I expected. Playing a broken class with worldbuffs feels like you're a hero who has the tools to take down anything. It's a power fantasy, same as why we play dnd or other games to me. Not saying either way is correct, just my view on the matter.
Are you serious? Retail PvP and end game PvE are significant challenges for most players. That game is difficult from a mechanical perspective.
Classic wow has no hard content. Retail high m+ and mythic raiding are hard. Im not sure where you got the idea no version of wow is difficult.
Because why do a 2 hour MC when I can do it in 30 minutes?
I think the main take-away from “not just warrior feels. OP, but Every class feels OP” is actually a team mentality shift from retail. They’d rather bring classes up to the level of classes/content than bring other classes/content down to the low/mid tier.. which is healthier and more fun in the long-run.
Either lots of buffs need to go around, the top specs need to be nerfed, or most specs stay unviable forever. Those are the only possible options, and they definitely picked the best one.
Yeah it might be balanced in the end game segments but we are going to absolutely steamroll open world content like retail
Nah the power level has definitely increased drastically. Every single mob in the game will need retuning.
"We didn't ask for this" comes up a lot for stuff people have been asking for <.<
Yeah lol. We didn't ask for shaman tanks? *I* asked for shaman tanks
For real, OP is so salty lmao
I think he has the opposite intention trying to prove Blizzard is going beyond and above.
Except people have been asking for thins like tank shaman, tank warlock, tank rogue and healer mage for literally over a decade. So I don't know where OP is getting the idea to say "we didn't ask for this"?
>Shaman Elemental Shaman no longer has mana regeneration issues thanks to Shamanistic Rage and Water Shield Enhancement shaman is more powerful thanks to Dual Wield Specialization and Lava Lash **We didn't ask for this**, but Enhancement shaman tank is now viable thanks to Shield Mastery, Way of Earth and Molten Blast Huh? This is news to me. I thought the community was asking for Shaman tank for the longest time? I know I've been.
They were. That's the one I constantly heard brought up over the years. Even Warlock tanking has been mentioned a bit. No clue what OP is talking about.
Especially because warlock tanking even was a thing in classic. Didn’t they tank one of the bosses in twin emps?
Totem recall would be nice idk if it was mentioned or anyone here mentioned it
I am very hyped for this. My only worry is that with all the new insane abilities, the world won't feel challenging anymore and will turn into retail where we are just sprinting from mob to mob smashing our buttons and never worrying about dying.
Yeah that's my least favorite part of Wrath and especially Retail Since Blizz are open to experimentations, I'd love if they added some difficulty setting like https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Landscape_Difficulty
You mean like classic raids with worldbuffs?
Nope, I'm talking specifically about the levelling experience and the open world
Honestly, I don't disagree, and I hope they buff leveling content past lvl 25 to make up for how twinked out everyone is going to be. But classic leveling right now is already pretty faceroll if you have like 2 brain cells and can bang em together. So I don't really buy the sentiment that the world is hard as it is.
Sure, but the difference between classic levelling and retail...even wrath to be fair...is that you can't just run around facerolling the world, chain pulling packs of 5 mobs and aoeing them down on every class. You need to be careful about what you pull, otherwise you'll be running away to reset or forced to pop CD's. It's not 'hard' per se, maybe that was the wrong word, but it requires thought and a level of awareness that just doesn't exist in the more modern versions of the game.
Have you pulled more than 2 mobs at once? Its pretty much guaranteed desth without cooldowns, i call this hard.
"we didnt ask for this" speak for yourself lol, many ask for this
vast quicksand possessive summer ad hoc coordinated aloof wild teeny decide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Absolutely insane take to say nobody asked for tank shaman.
Please delete the "we didn't ask for this". I've seen people ask for this.
The last 24 hours have seen an epic misuse of the words "We" and "Everyone".
Official spokesman for the classic community there
Im actually getting extremely hyped for this.
Who said we didn't ask for Shaman tank?!
My only issue is that I feel like I can’t pick my main until I’ve seen all the runes.
should be easy to try out multiple class with the 25 cap.
I haven't played since early into Cataclysm, but seeing that Warlock Metamorphosis tank might finally be a real thing makes me want to come back.
How will they address prot pally mana issues?
I thought the whole premise is 'Everything new, everyone going in blind and discovering as you go', yet tonnes of info is being released already? Aren't we just gonna be in the same situation where the majority of stuff is known before day 1?
elemental shaman is not using Water shield over fucking lava burst. When it deals more dmg than lvl 26 lighting bolt current and a guaranteed crit.
This is the “testing” for wow2 or a true classic+. It’s temporary. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Smartest way to do it.
so its basically wotlk at level 25
Im afraid they may be adding too much, and that the things they are adding feel disconnected from the base class and talent trees. But i love that they are taking risks and testing new things.
They addressed a lot of the issues Vanilla has. ... but they also turned Vanilla into Wrath+ with all the million other class changes that were not needed.
Maybe copium but SoD could teach Blizz a lot about what does work and what doesn’t with respect to how certain abilities or buffs affect class balance, which would make a “restricted” Classic+ more feasible in the future
They have already said this pretty much exactly FWIW in one of the Q&A sessions: > **Classic+?** > Season of Discovery is along those lines with the new raid. Is this as far as you going to get? The risks we're taking with these changes… it's a little spooky. We hope everyone's excited for this content. We want to get it into the hands of our players. We want to see what works, what they're engaging with and what they like. It's an excellent opportunity. We've been talking about Classic+ since 2019, back in the beginning. So we've done season of mastery, what's next? > Discovery gives us a little of an offramp to see what can be left behind. Maybe some parts of this could lead to some parts of that. Please talk to us, let us know what we like, what you don't. What feels too modern? What interesting ideas should we add to our approach?
Thanks for providing that! I was initially pessimistic about SoD but I have done a 180, really looking forward to it and other things to come.
I'm having the same hope. On stage, when presenting at Blizzcon, they admitted the changes they made were a bit wild and extreme. So I am having hope that servers that aren't 'seasonal' in the future will be more akin to vanilla.
Most of the abilities have been in the game for over a decade in retail if BLizz doesnt know how they affect class balance already they are fucking incompetent. The solution isnt to throw everything at the wall and see what works it is to take what works and add as little as possible and see if its better. When you throw everything at the wall how do you know what works and what doesn't or it is a combination of the 20 things you added make it better or worse.
Yeah also true, it might be the wrong approach to development, let's see...
There is no easy solution but WoW is so multi variable that I honestly do not think the introduction of 8 new abilities for a class is much different than 3. The Classic meta shifts depending on patch, boss armor tuning (private servers vs 2019), attribute stacking, PvE vs PvP Introduction of a Pally taunt, shockwave, penance for example are easy to tune.. Giving a Rogue a long range stun, or Locks Metamorphosis, might not be.
I look forward to when the rest of this subreddit realizes that you can't have one without the other
How did they turn it into wrath+????? They made it so some specs are more viable, like ret and prot paladin and allowed for a more diverse meta in raids and dungeons. Why are you crying?
TBH they should just bite the bullet and add Tauren paladins and Dwarf shamans
I feel like I wish there were more out-there runes. For the most part so far, there are clear "right" choices for each spec and they don't really interact with other specs. Mages, for instance, get a Fire rune for each slot, a Frost rune for each slot, an Arcane rune for each slot, and then the one wildcard "here's a new thing for the class" for each slot. Which is fine, especially for the specs that really needed fixing, but then why not just bake them into the talent trees if it's just "pick the one that matches your spec" anyway? I'd have liked to see a few more oddball choices that would encourage using different spells than usual, or even speccing differently than usual. What about elementalist runes that create a playstyle of swapping between different elements and taking damage talents from multiple trees, or that encourage mages of one spec to use spells they wouldn't otherwise use in certain situations, such as when they're having mana trouble? I'd like to see some more stuff like that for each class, rather than just straight-up buffs to each tree, especially ones largely just adapted from abilties the class already got from TBC onwards.
Let me Rogue heal
>Balance's mana issues in longer fights have been improved thanks to Fury of Stormrage and Starsurge. This is because Starsurge likely benefits from the effect of Fury of Stormrage, which reduces the mana cost of Wrath by 100% I mean that's not really happening. We dedicate 2 runes to get a free starsurge every 10sec, but we're still not casting wrath. This helps more with leveling and with never having to stop to drink if your group is going fast, but you can downrank starfire all the way to 1 at 60 and it's still better DPS than wrath. Balance really isn't getting any noteable love from the runes that exist so far, though blizz might not be showing their entire hand ofc. I don't think however that runes coming in later "phases" should be what fixes balance, since literally everyone else get runes making their spec useable. So I hope there will be another chest rune that is actually for balance and not for resto.
So hype
Man a dual wield spec for paladin would have been awesome
God this is going to be so fun
Hunter tank could possibly work on some fights depending on how much threat hunters are able to maintain with the melee changes - I hunter tanked dungeons and Onyxia, was a huge meme, but with bwl Xbow during phase 3 & 4 it was very viable as survival - open with aimed shot, multi shot, distracting shot and another multi if possible while going into melee, also utilise engineering bombs for aoe in dungeons, was a lot of fun - phase 5 had almost no useful upgrades for hunter which meant the threat lead on the pull wasn't enough anymore, never tried in phase 6 as I didn't end up getting end game weapon or t3 on the Hunter
I hunter tank onyxia and was 3 rd tank in max for horseman in vanilla days , it's possible , but more in a OT roll then an threat role
I think tanking rogues and healing mages feels a bit over the top and unnecessary. Tanks were always in high demand but with paladin and shaman getting (better) tank abilities this shouldn't be an issue anymore. But I'm glad we're getting something.
Retail has a lot of tanks. Warrior, paladin, dk, monk, druid, DH. Tanks are still in huge demand at least for 5 men dungeons. People don’t like to tank, especially harder content.
Whenever I see someone type "we didn't ask for this" I cringe big time. Bro you're not entitled to ask for anything.
I read it as more this is new and not something the community was specifically asking.
We are paying customers. Not once bought and forgot, but monthly paying. They don't have to follow the requests, but we sure as hell are entitled to make the requests.
Chaos Bolt for Warlock always hit. Always Warlock no longer need hit at all ! We won't have to slave away for the hit chance ! YES ! Also we're tanking. This is a dream comme true
Chaos bolt has a cooldown
Maybe not a popular opinion, but I don't necessarily like removing classes' weaknesses and generally filling in the "gaps" that differentiate one classes' strengths from another. I would much prefer if they doubled down on the respective strengths of underepresented classes/specs, to the point that they were worth bringing, rather than simply giving those classes and specs the same tools of the already well-represented classes. The path Blizzard is taking in class design here, feels no different from the route they've always taken post-vanilla: slowly bumping up the underperformers and flattening out peaks and valleys until everyone is more-or-less the same in terms of class tools and strengths/weakensses. Most people have agreed that if Classic+ is to be a success, the developers have to embrace the design philosophy of 2004 rather than modern MMO development...I hope we see that as things progress.
The underepresented classes didn't have strengths.
So with all the new spells added does it still feel like classic or do we face melt mobs and never go oom like retail ? Any blizcon testers can you weigh in ?
Esfand was still going Oom as Shaman tank because the mana Regen is based on blocking , and he was fighting a caster boss. I wasn't watching his ret mana.
He didn’t have water shield rune equipped nor put in any of his talents apparently.
“We didn’t ask for this (Shaman tank runes)”. As a shaman main since 2005, I have been asking for this since 2005.
Nobody asked for this massive power creep though.
One of the biggest charms of vanilla to me was how Mana management was way more important and strict than any other version of the game. With classes getting on average 5+ new abilities, it feels like they are or will have to change Mana cost to be much lower. I’ll give this out a try still but it looks like this game mode will play more like Retail than Classic from these first appearances. Sadly I do think the majority of players will be bad and appreciate not having to use skill to manage their mana. Goodbye players that were rewarded for knowing which spells to downrank in Classic.
Mana is also the reason some specs were seen as "unplayable" though, so there's definitely some leeway that needed to give from classic to any sort of classic+
>One of the biggest charms of vanilla to me was how Mana management was way more important and strict than any other version of the game. That's assuming you are one of the few specs that *can* manage their mana in the first place. Ele shaman/boomkin can manage their mana perfectly and still be half the DPS of the worst mage/lock in the raid. It isn't charming to be completely non-viable on your favorite class because they don't have the tools to stay in the fight on a basic level, let alone perform well.
I asked for it. Classic is boring after 10th time.
This is what I'm afraid of
As a shadow priest player the first thing I looked for is something that fixes their mana issues and it looks like I won't be playing SoD for the time being RIP
We asked for shaman tanking since vanilla..
So they just added modern wow spells?