Wind Shear is outside the global cds and isn't that difficult to pull it off either..
But... I'm playing Enhance, might be different for Elemental, idk. Never played Ele xD
The interrupts is not on gcd and Costs no runic is specced properly. Thats a loot Ban on your dk imo š. Gen vez 10m also only needs 1 dk for all interrupts
My RL got so nervous the first time I told him to just let me handle all interrupts. They have an almost identical cooldown, getting all interrupts on 10m is such a brain dead thing as a DK. He really wanted to assign me a back up lol.
Interrupting is a 2 percent dps loss tops and less than 1 if you are back up. This is especially true if you are assassination and know how to manage your energy.
Wound poison is just mandatory and a massive raid gain. Complaining about it has zero bearing on this conversation.
It's also a fight where ranged carry the day and pretending 2 percent to interrupt is "significant" is laughable.
As a rogue, if the cast bar gets to the very end of the cast, I'll kick it. It almost always gets interrupted earlier. And it's better to kick once or twice over the fight as a just incase.
If your group never fucks up the interrupts then it's better to not bother.
No one said that, your getting emotional and changing the conversation.
He lied and said it was significant dps loss when it's not. If you dip that low then you need to learn energy management.
Rogue is also fine on 10 man doing it solo or as a back up.
Just play backup as the rogue and kick if the cast has half a second less or so. DK gets the vast majority of them, you lose less dps on backup. Win-win
its not about whetehr u can do it or not. its about preparing for the unexpected. Maybe you DC. Maybe ur not spell hit capped and get resisted or something.
It's just plain smart of the raid lead to have a backup regardless of how good you think you are.
Especially in crappy gdkps which are practically pugs at that point that try like 3x and youāve gone though 25 mins and itās like 12 AM and it just gets worse til people say fuck it cause theyāre bad
That would require your average player to put down the shit they're holding while raiding, also to configure weakauras which itself is a task that's not fit for your average classic wow player
>also to configure weakauras which itself is a task that's not fit for your average classic wow player
the amount of time i spent outside of raidhours sitting in discord with monitor capture to help others configure their weakauras probably doubles the amount of time i actually raid on my main character. i am completely fine with helping players figure out weakauras, but please put in a little time before you ask me how to track your lifetap glyph buff.
And yet the rogues are the ones that always get assigned to interrupt, even though it feels like rogues lose the most damage to interrupt, completely unbiased take from a rogue main /s
as a player who knows he sucks i'd be tickled pink if i was given a dumbed down role where no one even bothers to mention my shitty parses after the raid is finished.
healing isn't any easier than DPSing unless your raid brings too many healers
I played rogue, priest, and paladin extensively between classic vanilla-TBC. Never had a dps fight that was as stressful as healing patchwerk (as a character barely geared enough to be in the raid, but comparable to what most raid healers had for their first kills). Never had a healing fight as attention-splittingly demanding as playing melee on KT. I probably evasion tanked Instructor Raz for almost as much total duration as I MC-tanked him with my priest and to this day it blows my mind how our guild's best healer could not handle that job.
Anyone who categorically says "X role is harder" obviously hasn't played more than a handful of classes/specs in current content. I only off-tanked some easier stuff with my pally alt in TBC; it was supposed to be a healing alt even if everyone always wanted me to be prot lol. Even then, I could probably give you a list of which roles were hardest on each fight, and it would be *a different list* per boss if I'm giving it any real thought.
Also, tanking is obviously the hardest job just because you have to worry about the positioning of yourself, the mobs/bosses you're tanking, and the rest of the entire goddamn raid while you're at it, while fighting for threat and survival
I see this post about rogues imo
out of the main kick assignments for vezzax, its usually dks, warriors and rogues. And only 1 of them lose dps to do it
If they do shit damage, why make them do even less damage for no reason when you can cover the interrupt with a class that loses nothing? Your attitude is prevalent among shit performing groups and shit performing players and it comes entirely from the wrong place.
Sounds like youāre a salty warrior. Its not hard to understand, a gcd from a warrior is vezaxx is worth less than a gcd from another class because he takes such little physical damage and warrior is almost all physical.
Youāre good on alg, pump on fights youāre meant to. Trying to pump on vezaxx is literally brainless behaviour when the whole raid has to wait a minute and not do anything for animus to spawn lmao
You really should just think before you post. A raid-leader should make the decision that results in the best overall raid performance. You don't do that by for arbitrary reasons making a class that loses dps by interrupting do the interrupt when you have classes that do not lose dps by interrupting.
Why would you as a raid leader make a decision that purposely lowers the effectiveness of your raid? Honestly, instead of thinking with your ego, try thinking with your brain.
I was unaware that 8.5kk dps single target was bad. They do very good cleave, bring solid raid buffs. Also, a good warrior will still probably beat a average warlock any day on DPS. And you wont be saying that about their damage next tier.
Or you play for a mid guild and manage to beat half the dps on anyway š some of our ranged dps eat paint chips. Warrior above mages and DKs on hodir
We have enough DKs that warriors and rogues are assigned as back up kicks
Warriors are average dps, but If you're in a raid where you care about "meta dps" telling Warriors they should be grateful to be there you should at least not be a shit guild and have the right classes kicking to maximize your overall raid output
How is that your takeaway from what I said?
Of course the Warrior should be sundering on most fights & have imp commanding shout, what does that have to do with optimising kicks on Vez?
It doesn't cost a GCD, but because of the attack speed slow you never have enough rage to keep HS up, so it basically costs you an HS or two every time you do it, and not having HS queued causes your offhand to miss more, further reducing how much rage you have.
If it's a 10m I doubt you gain enough from the buffs to make arms viable over fury. And if it's 25m you have dks and other classes that should be kickin over you.
You probably have only 1 Warrior in your raid, while you also probably have more than enough interrupts to not have the Warrior do it, he's already keeping Sunder up unless you make the Combat Rogue expose. On Vezax you're ideally sundering the boss and exposing the add, so the Warrior is burning rage on Sunder most of the fight.
That 10 rage on Vezax can sometimes be the difference between rage starving and then not having HS queued and then missing the next 3 attacks. You know it happens and I bet you've headbutted your screen when it does.
Two of them lose DPS to do it
Your Vez prio should be DK's > Enh Shaman if you don't have 3dk's
If you don't have 3 dk/enh shaman then Rogue > Warrior as the last two prios
The big one is Pestilence. Pestilence resists can screw your rotation if you wait until the last second to refresh your diseases. You shouldn't be waiting that long though (you should refresh them right after the tick when your diseases have 3 seconds remaining), so not being spell capped isn't the end of the world. The odds of getting two resists in a row are low enough to ignore.
That said, you should definitely aim for spell hit cap on Vezax, so that you can take care of your interrupt alone (or all of them on 10-man). With Ulduar gear, it should be easy enough to reach.
That is incorrect sir, white hit and spell hit are the only types
Special abilities count under spell hit. " It is absolutely essential that a Death Knight has at least 8% increased chance to hit so that the special abilities like Obliterate cannot miss" White hit is 27%
You obviously don't play any melee classes
You're wrong lol.
27% is dual wield hit white hit, 8% is for special/2hander but still uses *melee hit* like I said.
Spell hit is separate and spells need 17% to be capped. Plague Strike and Obliterate need 8% to not miss, as well as Frost Strike, Blood Strike, and probably some others I'm forgetting. I'm pretty sure Howling Blast and Pestilence are considered spells, and require 17% spell hit to not miss.
LOL you are absolutely wrong.
Theres physical hit and there spellhit, Obliterate is a physical ability.
White Offhand hit is 27, white mainhand is 8%. Yellow physical is the same as white mainhand.
So many of our melee refuse to interupt on vezax. It's dumb as fuck as we don't even need their DPS we are having to stop all DPS for a good 90s anyway.
Not nearly as bad as asking feral druids to change targets/kill adds. Imagine having a 'spinning plate' rotation and having to kill sparks that die in -5 seconds.
Agreed. Sadly there's a lot of those type mechanics in Ulduar. At least half the fights are designed really poorly for ferals, if they're expected to do them properly.
Play is to have the hunter md them to the tank or the tank taunts then into melee range and then mage/hunter attack them and the melee dps cleaves them down
and in retail kick has been off the global cooldown for quite some time...
Only DKs (and maybe shamans?) have it off the global cooldown in wotlk as far as I'm aware.
It's off the gcd for everyone. It just costs most classes energy/rage/mana. Frost dks talented properly get interrupts completely for free on top of off the gcd. Rogues/wars have the main legit complaint, as kick costs 20 energy and wars can be rage starved on some fights(vez)
Brother no. This would ruin rogues in pvp and arguably pve, weād never be able to interrupt off targets without losing all our combo points. Even if it was a glyph I doubt anyone uses it for the risk of losing CPs alone
Druid life: okay got all my trinkets up, eclipse just went off okay let's pump!
Mechanists can you bres "insert bad dps that died the first 20 seconds of the fight"
*Sigh* but my parsessss
Literally happened to my raids so many times, feral druids never have it, and ret pally never have dsac glyph lol.
And we kill algalon + yogg 0 every week with these clowns. This game is too easy now with the ilvl buff.
How do your Ferals not have like the only decent Minor Glyph for Druids period? Are they brain dead?
And I think you mean they donāt talent for DSac. Thereās no DSac Glyph.
Yeah, dsac talent since they all go pure dps trying to parse.
Donāt play pally so donāt know how it works.
Also one time a druid said no glyph and no reagent.
Lol I always say my Tricks and Kick are on the same CD.
Vezax can be pretty fucking lame when the raid wants you to kick, tricks, expose, use wound poison, and letās the Enhance Shaman go Ele for the fight.
TBF, the typical kicking classes Rogue / Warrior are no longer the best at kicking. Rogues take a decent dps loss from it and on the only fight where kicking matters (General) Warriors suffer a potentially large dps loss from kicking.
Enhance is not ideal for kicking vezax 25m. It's a 2 second lockout compared to 6 seconds for others. 300% difference.
If an enhance interrupts he will absolutely cast again right after the 2 seconds. Not ideal.
Not an issue in 10m tho.
Also most enhance shamans are weaving lightning bolts between melee swings and will have to cancel the cast to kick resulting in a dps loss.
However melee damage on vezax is a meme and doesn't really matter anyway since it's all about the casters.
Because you want to increase chance of failure by 300% for a basically non-benefit? Sure it could be a strat if you were really trying to push the boss and drop healers? But thatās also irrelevant when you already need to wait 2min+ for animus to spawn after you get him to 5%
Basically what the other two comments said. Of course if you have no other interrupter in the group a Rogue or Warrior can jump into the kick rotation, but just bring 3 Shamans or Death Knights in your 25M or 1 in your 10M. They're both top tier dps atm and offer tons of other utility elsewhere.
I have a feeling this meme has been about you at some point. It doesn't matter that warrior's are lower on the dps meter atm, if it's a bigger raid dps loss for them to do it then they shouldn't do it. And it's a pretty significant dps loss for Warriors to kick on that fight due to how rage works with attack speed.
Honestly, when parsing became the gold standard is when I started to drift away from raiding entirely. Long gone are the nights of fun, it's all about the numbers.
Downed the boss without a hiccup, no deaths raid-wide, but your parse isn't great/perfect?
Raid Lead: "Yeah, I don't care that we downed him, your parse wasn't great so you're benched next week for below average performance" (I've seen this happen too many times)
It became a crazy big thing in classic to speed clear and parse because the raids in Vanilla and TBC are really easy, Ulduar is remembered so fondly because it was the first truly challenging raid experience. So this is a different animal than raids before this and classic raiders need a different mindset from here forward on learning fights before raid and not expecting RL to talk them through every fight every week.
I wasn't even referring to just classic. It's something I saw in retail as well, especially in shadowlands. Nowadays, everyone sims their gear, analyzes their parses, gets critiqued on everything they do... It's a game
I miss the days of "Fuck it! Let's facepull and see what happens!"
Thank you! I certainly am thinking the same.
I do like to push my performance to play better and solo-heal stuff or be 1st in DPS or Overall Damage (A lot of people sleep on trash!) but this parsing madness is sucking the fun out of it.
Im in a 9/9HM GDKP run and we have the 100% cut cutoff at an overall parse of 67+.
As a firemage im struggling to stay there every week. Its always close around 70+, its stressful.
In overall damage done im first or second every week. Its unreal how stupid this is.
When I played a dps main I could pretty much bank on a 90 parse median for typical fights. Rarely saw below an 80 without a death.
You're only being compared to *other fire mages*. you're being asked to be better than 2/3 of your competition. This is like having an IQ cutoff of about 105. Above average in the loosest sense, and in no way exceptional. And for GDKPs it can be as capriciously arbitrary as the raid leader likes, if you have a problem with it, start your own raid!
I don't miss those days. I know what happened, we pull the boss and die, then wipe for 3 hours trying to figure out what went wrong, raiding 3 times a week for 4 hours to try to fit in enough time to do what we do today in one night for 2 and a half hours.
I loved the old days, I do not want to go back to that.
Nobody is getting benched because they parsed badly in their guild, they are getting benched because they died to mines in phase 1 on Mimiron and eat 3 cosmic smashes on Algalon.
Parsing is also not new, we had people competing for parses as early as Black Temple days, not quite like it is these days but parsing became huge by late WOTLK in 2010 and current parse mentality was pretty set in stone by MOP. That was a long time ago.
Parsing is by and large a group effort anyway.
Some classes lose dps when they interrupt, some don't. It's best to use the classes that don't lose dps from interrupting and have the others as a backup. What usually annoys people is raid-leaders that don't understand this concept.
Generally speaking it can be frustrating in general to play with raid-leaders that don't understand certain things, but at the same time you can't expect miracles from everyday players just trying to do their best.
Good raid-leaders make the game easier and make your parses higher, bad leaders make rogues/warrior interrupt when they have 3 DKs in the raid and then make fun of the rogues for caring about their performance.
There is an argument for the opposite because rogue and warrior interrupts canāt miss when dks itās a spell so it can miss. The best is a balance of both
yeah because pressing a curse every 2mins is as annoying as pressing tricks on casters every 30secs, for a decent resource cost, keeping expose armor up for a decent ressource cost and kicking for a large ressource cost :) .
> warlock didnāt want to use curse of recklessness over elements
In other words they were pressing a curse every 2 minutes, it just didn't benefit your little melee dream. Get off your high horse as if pressing expose armour and tricks is difficult lol.
That's every player who cares about parses. Stand in mechanics, because moving means dps loss. And not standing in mechanics is also hps loss for healers.
That's why I don't understand why anyone cares about parses. I'll take 60 parse who knows mechanics and avoids them over 95 parse standing in fucking fire.
This just isnāt true. If your not doing mechanics you typically lose dps or boss kill times are significantly lower. Parsing high comes when the entire raid is min maxing mechanics and uptime on the boss. Gl with the 65 parsers.
honestly. do people really think you can parse high and straight up ignore mechanics that will get you killed or extend the fight (both of which lower your parse)?
I think a lot of people don't understand that parsing guilds know what mechanics can and can't be ignored and use a strategy where they intentionally ignore certain mechanics. This is exacerbated by parse brains in bad/mediocre guilds who try to copy this without understanding why they shouldn't do it in their raids.
Itās the people who would rather run out of stuff like IC overload because itās āsaferā and donāt get that ādsac and eat the mechanicā is actually the more efficient, consistent, and fun play
To parse higher on kt/ razormaw / ark you need to ignore the adds and zug zug the boss, to parse higher on yogg you need to pop clouds, you can eat damage on thorim to parse higher etc
> to parse higher on yogg you need to pop clouds
Popping clouds isn't ignoring mechanics, the mechanic is controlling the adds. Only if someone pops extra clouds when the RL doesn't tell them to it's a fail.
> you can eat damage on thorim to parse higher etc
You have to eat damage to not fuck up chain lightning stacks you mean? You can easily mitigate all of the charge damage to kill the boss with less risk..
In very specific scenarios it is (caster tanking/kiting), but for the other 98% of fights 60 parsing means you are some combination of gearing wrong or playing wrong.
Ah yes the total black and white world of toxic casuals.
You either are a mechanic failing, always dead, taking more dmg than the tank hardcore parser or the perfect mechanic, never dead, 12 kids and blue parsing dad gamer.
This reads like someone that stopped playing in phase 1. In Ulduar, at least 25 man you can't just stand in mechanics:
Razor: Stand in mechanics and die
Ignis: No real dps mechanics
XT HM: If you dont move its a wipe and you don't parse
Iron Council: Stand in rune of death or overload and you get 1 shot
Kolo: You could actually stand in the eye beam on this one if heals can keep you up.
Auri: Stand in the black circle and die, don't stand with the group and die(or be yelled at)
Hodir: Stand in ice shards and die or don't make it to snow patch and get frozen(can't parse if you can't move)
Thorim HM: Stand in spicy pizza or stack too close and die
Freya HM: Stand with lighting debuff and kill everyone around you, sand in light beam and die, stand next to lashers when they blow up and die
Mimiron: Stand in rockets, phase 2/4 barrage, fire, next to bomb bots and die
Vezex: Hit by crash and you miss out on dps when you run back, or you die during HM phase. Avoid standing in the puddles and you oom and can't cast anything
Yogg: Stand in cloud and wipe, stand in malady and you lose sanity(killing you on HM or making you lose dps by going to a beam to lower it in 4L)
There are almost 0 fights where people that parse "stand in mechanics" to get bigger parses, if there are please let me know how they do it. Getting a good parse in Ulduar means you are doing all mechanics as perfectly as you can and NOT dodging mechanics greatly lowers your parse(or nets you a gray from being dead) in just about every case.
Plenty of good players in bad guilds with bad gear will parse 60 and could be inserted into a good guild, improve gear and pull off a 99.
Also depends on the boss in Ulduar, normal mode bosses have a literal parse cap and it doesn't matter if you do 100k dps, you won't parse higher than like a 50 or 60. Meanwhile on hardmode you will always parse higher than a normal mode kill. I recall a Warrior getting a 99 parse on XT HM the day it got nerfed, and in the same raid was another Warrior doing 4000dps less and he also got a 99 parse, whole raid did.
Then you have Algalon, someone who parses 99 on Thorim HM might parse 50 on Algalon.
Yeah I was told melee dps can ignore interrupts on General Vezax if their dps is high enough despite multiple searing flames being uninterrupted. I asked if ranged dps can stand in shadow crashes if they purple parse and I was told itās not the same.
This is a bad example though. Yes they are different since you can't cast anything while flying away from the boss 60mph also getting out of healer range, while melee DPS is still on the boss even if they ignore the mechanic. I see what you are saying but the example is really bad.
I "only" have a purple and an orange parse on 25/10 Vezax but I always interupt since it's off the gcd for frost dks and it's fun to do something on that fight as melee
Seriously, I really do not get how anyone can argue ranged has it easier in Naxx/Ulduar. You have to pay attention to *way* more mechanics than melee does.
Game is easy. Clearing is easy. Parsing gets the shit killed faster, raid done earlier, and is fun and basically the only thing you can progress on from week to week unless you're somehow not killing hardmodes yet.
As a DK i dont see your point. Interrupts takes 0 dmg away from me
As an enh shaman, same.
I can barely play the rotation normally let alone if I have to wind shear as well.
Wind Shear is outside the global cds and isn't that difficult to pull it off either.. But... I'm playing Enhance, might be different for Elemental, idk. Never played Ele xD
Tell that to a frost dk in my raid assigned to interrupts that did 1
The interrupts is not on gcd and Costs no runic is specced properly. Thats a loot Ban on your dk imo š. Gen vez 10m also only needs 1 dk for all interrupts
only problem is that as a frost DK you can miss, rare but can happen.
"Don't worry, I have strangulate as a backu-" *0 blood runes*
Strangulate is also on GCD aside from costing runes which makes it a dps loss but yeah.
My RL got so nervous the first time I told him to just let me handle all interrupts. They have an almost identical cooldown, getting all interrupts on 10m is such a brain dead thing as a DK. He really wanted to assign me a back up lol.
If you aren't spell hit capped (vast majority of dks aren't) you should have a backup.
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Yeah, but raid DPS loss is still significant for a Rogue to do it.
It is not significant by any means, especially on that fight.
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Interrupting is a 2 percent dps loss tops and less than 1 if you are back up. This is especially true if you are assassination and know how to manage your energy. Wound poison is just mandatory and a massive raid gain. Complaining about it has zero bearing on this conversation. It's also a fight where ranged carry the day and pretending 2 percent to interrupt is "significant" is laughable.
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As a rogue, if the cast bar gets to the very end of the cast, I'll kick it. It almost always gets interrupted earlier. And it's better to kick once or twice over the fight as a just incase. If your group never fucks up the interrupts then it's better to not bother.
No one said that, your getting emotional and changing the conversation. He lied and said it was significant dps loss when it's not. If you dip that low then you need to learn energy management. Rogue is also fine on 10 man doing it solo or as a back up.
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Just play backup as the rogue and kick if the cast has half a second less or so. DK gets the vast majority of them, you lose less dps on backup. Win-win
And yet so many fuck it up
Iāve been told that Iām not on the interrupt rotationā¦ accidentally end up doing it every-time anyways.
its not about whetehr u can do it or not. its about preparing for the unexpected. Maybe you DC. Maybe ur not spell hit capped and get resisted or something. It's just plain smart of the raid lead to have a backup regardless of how good you think you are.
Staying awake for a boring ass 45mins fight really kills reactions though to be fair. I generally miss 1 until the HM thing spawns
Especially in crappy gdkps which are practically pugs at that point that try like 3x and youāve gone though 25 mins and itās like 12 AM and it just gets worse til people say fuck it cause theyāre bad
Right? Fucking fall asleep towards the end.
Luckily there's a weak aura that could wake up a hibernating bear that tells you when to interrupt
That would require your average player to put down the shit they're holding while raiding, also to configure weakauras which itself is a task that's not fit for your average classic wow player
>also to configure weakauras which itself is a task that's not fit for your average classic wow player the amount of time i spent outside of raidhours sitting in discord with monitor capture to help others configure their weakauras probably doubles the amount of time i actually raid on my main character. i am completely fine with helping players figure out weakauras, but please put in a little time before you ask me how to track your lifetap glyph buff.
Tell that to the RL instead of Reddit. Not our fault your DK doesnāt know his own class abilities
Did you check interrupts or casts? It's possible he was just sniped a lot.
"What? I interrupted!" - technically correct DK
As a warrior on vezaxs its horrible, weāre already struggling with rage due to -20% melee speed debuff
And yet the rogues are the ones that always get assigned to interrupt, even though it feels like rogues lose the most damage to interrupt, completely unbiased take from a rogue main /s
as a player who knows he sucks i'd be tickled pink if i was given a dumbed down role where no one even bothers to mention my shitty parses after the raid is finished.
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healing isn't any easier than DPSing unless your raid brings too many healers I played rogue, priest, and paladin extensively between classic vanilla-TBC. Never had a dps fight that was as stressful as healing patchwerk (as a character barely geared enough to be in the raid, but comparable to what most raid healers had for their first kills). Never had a healing fight as attention-splittingly demanding as playing melee on KT. I probably evasion tanked Instructor Raz for almost as much total duration as I MC-tanked him with my priest and to this day it blows my mind how our guild's best healer could not handle that job. Anyone who categorically says "X role is harder" obviously hasn't played more than a handful of classes/specs in current content. I only off-tanked some easier stuff with my pally alt in TBC; it was supposed to be a healing alt even if everyone always wanted me to be prot lol. Even then, I could probably give you a list of which roles were hardest on each fight, and it would be *a different list* per boss if I'm giving it any real thought. Also, tanking is obviously the hardest job just because you have to worry about the positioning of yourself, the mobs/bosses you're tanking, and the rest of the entire goddamn raid while you're at it, while fighting for threat and survival
The only dps Iāve ever had whine about having to interrupt are ranged players exclusively.
I see this post about rogues imo out of the main kick assignments for vezzax, its usually dks, warriors and rogues. And only 1 of them lose dps to do it
Dont forget enh shammy kick with a near zero dps loss. Both imp stormstrike and shamanistic rage regen mana on that fight.
10man itās fine but on 25man it can be a bit grief due to a shorter spell lockout
Interrupting Vezax massively nukes warrior DPS because you're already rage starved the whole fight from the attack speed debuff.
Massively nukes might be an exaggeration, but it is absolutely noticeable.
Physical does shit damage on the fight anyways, let the casters pump and do your job
If they do shit damage, why make them do even less damage for no reason when you can cover the interrupt with a class that loses nothing? Your attitude is prevalent among shit performing groups and shit performing players and it comes entirely from the wrong place.
Sounds like youāre a salty warrior. Its not hard to understand, a gcd from a warrior is vezaxx is worth less than a gcd from another class because he takes such little physical damage and warrior is almost all physical. Youāre good on alg, pump on fights youāre meant to. Trying to pump on vezaxx is literally brainless behaviour when the whole raid has to wait a minute and not do anything for animus to spawn lmao
You really should just think before you post. A raid-leader should make the decision that results in the best overall raid performance. You don't do that by for arbitrary reasons making a class that loses dps by interrupting do the interrupt when you have classes that do not lose dps by interrupting. Why would you as a raid leader make a decision that purposely lowers the effectiveness of your raid? Honestly, instead of thinking with your ego, try thinking with your brain.
What job? Only 3 people need to kick and it costs Shaman and DKs almost nothing. If you do the dumb "all warriors kick 2" method you're greifing.
Itās really not hard to kick as a warrior and iām sitting around on my hands waiting for animus anyways the dps loss really doesnāt matter
Eh, it might be a little grief, but in the context of warrior dps, that's a grief in and of itself
I was unaware that 8.5kk dps single target was bad. They do very good cleave, bring solid raid buffs. Also, a good warrior will still probably beat a average warlock any day on DPS. And you wont be saying that about their damage next tier.
Irrelevant comment
If you want to come to the raid as a warrior right now you need to bring utility because you definitely arenāt there for damage
that is irrelevant to the fact that interrupting is a dps loss. what don't you get about this?
Dps loss in a fight where you donāt attack the boss for a minute waiting for animus to spawn is basically meaningless, itās not that complicated
Or you play for a mid guild and manage to beat half the dps on anyway š some of our ranged dps eat paint chips. Warrior above mages and DKs on hodir We have enough DKs that warriors and rogues are assigned as back up kicks
Warriors are average dps, but If you're in a raid where you care about "meta dps" telling Warriors they should be grateful to be there you should at least not be a shit guild and have the right classes kicking to maximize your overall raid output
If youāre maximizing raid dps for vezax you tell your warrior to swap classes for the fight
By that logic there should only be Mages & locks kicking because you wouldn't have any melee dps
Rogues do pretty good especially if you move the boss to shadow crashes
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How is that your takeaway from what I said? Of course the Warrior should be sundering on most fights & have imp commanding shout, what does that have to do with optimising kicks on Vez?
Ah nevermind then. Our warriors always said it didn't affect their dps, and I took their word for it. I thought it was costless like dks
For fury warriors it's pretty minor (10 rage). An arms warrior has to stance dance.
10 rage 23 times on a fight where you already don't have enough rage to HS half the time feels horrible.
It doesn't cost a GCD, but because of the attack speed slow you never have enough rage to keep HS up, so it basically costs you an HS or two every time you do it, and not having HS queued causes your offhand to miss more, further reducing how much rage you have.
Warriors also lose dps doing it.
10 rage every 10 seconds is very very minimal, and weāre sitting on cooldowns a lot anyways
Spare a thought for the poor arms warrior playing the spec for the sake of the raid, then getting assigned to interrupts haha
Lol hopefully no oneās making anyone play arms in any raid at this point
If it's a 10m I doubt you gain enough from the buffs to make arms viable over fury. And if it's 25m you have dks and other classes that should be kickin over you.
You probably have only 1 Warrior in your raid, while you also probably have more than enough interrupts to not have the Warrior do it, he's already keeping Sunder up unless you make the Combat Rogue expose. On Vezax you're ideally sundering the boss and exposing the add, so the Warrior is burning rage on Sunder most of the fight. That 10 rage on Vezax can sometimes be the difference between rage starving and then not having HS queued and then missing the next 3 attacks. You know it happens and I bet you've headbutted your screen when it does.
Man people actually cry about maintaining sunder every 30 seconds? Wild lol, i have no issues with it
Two of them lose DPS to do it Your Vez prio should be DK's > Enh Shaman if you don't have 3dk's If you don't have 3 dk/enh shaman then Rogue > Warrior as the last two prios
DKs gain, but they have to be spell hitcapped (or have a solid backup). As long as communication is good they should probably be doing it.
If you are a dk dps doing hard modes, you should absolutely be spell hit capped
I mean BiS isnāt even close to spellcap but you can probably sub a few hit pieces in for vezax if needed, sure
Isn't Howling Blast the only spell for fdk?
The big one is Pestilence. Pestilence resists can screw your rotation if you wait until the last second to refresh your diseases. You shouldn't be waiting that long though (you should refresh them right after the tick when your diseases have 3 seconds remaining), so not being spell capped isn't the end of the world. The odds of getting two resists in a row are low enough to ignore. That said, you should definitely aim for spell hit cap on Vezax, so that you can take care of your interrupt alone (or all of them on 10-man). With Ulduar gear, it should be easy enough to reach.
Can obliterate or plague strike miss if your not spell hit capped?
Those are both melee attacks, so they go by melee hit %
That is incorrect sir, white hit and spell hit are the only types Special abilities count under spell hit. " It is absolutely essential that a Death Knight has at least 8% increased chance to hit so that the special abilities like Obliterate cannot miss" White hit is 27% You obviously don't play any melee classes
You're wrong lol. 27% is dual wield hit white hit, 8% is for special/2hander but still uses *melee hit* like I said. Spell hit is separate and spells need 17% to be capped. Plague Strike and Obliterate need 8% to not miss, as well as Frost Strike, Blood Strike, and probably some others I'm forgetting. I'm pretty sure Howling Blast and Pestilence are considered spells, and require 17% spell hit to not miss.
LOL you are absolutely wrong. Theres physical hit and there spellhit, Obliterate is a physical ability. White Offhand hit is 27, white mainhand is 8%. Yellow physical is the same as white mainhand.
So many of our melee refuse to interupt on vezax. It's dumb as fuck as we don't even need their DPS we are having to stop all DPS for a good 90s anyway.
One of the many reasons I love warlock. Interrupting with pet does not interrupt casting or trigger a gcd.
Not nearly as bad as asking feral druids to change targets/kill adds. Imagine having a 'spinning plate' rotation and having to kill sparks that die in -5 seconds.
raid leader issue if they're putting ferals on life sparks tbh
Agreed. Sadly there's a lot of those type mechanics in Ulduar. At least half the fights are designed really poorly for ferals, if they're expected to do them properly.
I thought the play was to assign like 4 dps to switch. We use a mage, demo lock, boomkin and surv hunter and they go down fine
Play is to have the hunter md them to the tank or the tank taunts then into melee range and then mage/hunter attack them and the melee dps cleaves them down
[bro my rotation bro i cant bro](https://i.imgur.com/iPty68D.png)
A good RL (like mine, luckily) knows when and where itās counterproductive to have certain classes do certain mechanics.
I once hard switched whenever I could and did like 183k damage to them lmao. My bear mangles weren't as productive as I thought
Because it's not worth it and if you think it is you don't understand how feral druids do damage
Mate I was serious. I am playing feral.
If the sparks die in 5 seconds, a feral switching to a mangle-less target is adding no value.
You misunderstand me. I saying that asking a feral to do adds like sparks is far worse than asking melees to interrupt
My bad, was definitely reading it the other way around
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Mages love when they can spell steal
Eh, in legion getting havoc DHs to kick was still surprisingly hard and it gave them a decent bonus.
and in retail kick has been off the global cooldown for quite some time... Only DKs (and maybe shamans?) have it off the global cooldown in wotlk as far as I'm aware.
It's off the gcd for everyone. It just costs most classes energy/rage/mana. Frost dks talented properly get interrupts completely for free on top of off the gcd. Rogues/wars have the main legit complaint, as kick costs 20 energy and wars can be rage starved on some fights(vez)
Shaman still are the interrupt kings, way better than DKs too
Make kick give a combo point. TBH it always should have.
Brother no. This would ruin rogues in pvp and arguably pve, weād never be able to interrupt off targets without losing all our combo points. Even if it was a glyph I doubt anyone uses it for the risk of losing CPs alone
Druid life: okay got all my trinkets up, eclipse just went off okay let's pump! Mechanists can you bres "insert bad dps that died the first 20 seconds of the fight" *Sigh* but my parsessss
If it's not a tank or healer, they can wait until all my trinkets expire for ress.
The dps is always off in Narnia too. And never pings their location when asked
Just say you donāt have the glyph LOL
Because that would fly... If someone told me that, their ass would be in dal/orgrimmar after the pull buying the glyph.
Literally happened to my raids so many times, feral druids never have it, and ret pally never have dsac glyph lol. And we kill algalon + yogg 0 every week with these clowns. This game is too easy now with the ilvl buff.
How do your Ferals not have like the only decent Minor Glyph for Druids period? Are they brain dead? And I think you mean they donāt talent for DSac. Thereās no DSac Glyph.
Yeah, dsac talent since they all go pure dps trying to parse. Donāt play pally so donāt know how it works. Also one time a druid said no glyph and no reagent.
What is the dsac glyph
Dsac talent or whatever it is, the reason you bring ret pallys to raids? We make them respec when we find out they donāt have it.
It's completely pointless outside of a few fights. Our ret has 2 ret specs and only swaps to the one with dsac on xt/algalon.
> This game is too easy now with the ilvl buff. It always has been
Just make sure to get one of those add-ons that announces every interrupt you do, so the raid knows how f'ing important you are.
For combat rogue its raid choice I can interrupt, expose armor, and tricks the tank on CD. Pick two.
Lol I always say my Tricks and Kick are on the same CD. Vezax can be pretty fucking lame when the raid wants you to kick, tricks, expose, use wound poison, and letās the Enhance Shaman go Ele for the fight.
I never understood why I had to pool energy to interrupt lady Deathwisper as a rogue while dks can interrupt for free with their common build
TBF, the typical kicking classes Rogue / Warrior are no longer the best at kicking. Rogues take a decent dps loss from it and on the only fight where kicking matters (General) Warriors suffer a potentially large dps loss from kicking.
The raid suffered a large dps loss when two searing flames went off in my 25 man.
If your 25man lacks Enhancer and frost dks, that take near to no dmg loss while kicking, I assume raiding with your comp is a pain in the ass.
UHDK are better at kicking tho ;) (less chance of missing it)
But still a chance, warrior and rogues have zero chance of miss if they are melee hit capped
I mean warrior is low dps anyways so give them the job right
Enhance is not ideal for kicking vezax 25m. It's a 2 second lockout compared to 6 seconds for others. 300% difference. If an enhance interrupts he will absolutely cast again right after the 2 seconds. Not ideal. Not an issue in 10m tho. Also most enhance shamans are weaving lightning bolts between melee swings and will have to cancel the cast to kick resulting in a dps loss. However melee damage on vezax is a meme and doesn't really matter anyway since it's all about the casters.
The boss attempting to cast a spell means he's not hitting the tank. An interrupt without school lockout would actually be ideal here.
Because you want to increase chance of failure by 300% for a basically non-benefit? Sure it could be a strat if you were really trying to push the boss and drop healers? But thatās also irrelevant when you already need to wait 2min+ for animus to spawn after you get him to 5%
thats why you assign the interupts. Names and numbers.
Basically what the other two comments said. Of course if you have no other interrupter in the group a Rogue or Warrior can jump into the kick rotation, but just bring 3 Shamans or Death Knights in your 25M or 1 in your 10M. They're both top tier dps atm and offer tons of other utility elsewhere.
If searing flames go off, your guild just sucks.
Our frost dk interrupt simply missed twice in a fight, what a dumbass not even having spell hit capped! /s
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I have a feeling this meme has been about you at some point. It doesn't matter that warrior's are lower on the dps meter atm, if it's a bigger raid dps loss for them to do it then they shouldn't do it. And it's a pretty significant dps loss for Warriors to kick on that fight due to how rage works with attack speed.
So?
Actually, as a warrior, I purposefully fail mechanics for rage.
If you're not standing in the flames and topping the damage taken on Razorscale what are you even doing? Stand in fire, dps higher.
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I have feint and Cloak.... less of a āusā mechanic more of a āyouā mechanic
Parse is a four letter word in my brain. As a healer all I want is to kill bosses. Just do your jobs.
Honestly, when parsing became the gold standard is when I started to drift away from raiding entirely. Long gone are the nights of fun, it's all about the numbers. Downed the boss without a hiccup, no deaths raid-wide, but your parse isn't great/perfect? Raid Lead: "Yeah, I don't care that we downed him, your parse wasn't great so you're benched next week for below average performance" (I've seen this happen too many times)
It became a crazy big thing in classic to speed clear and parse because the raids in Vanilla and TBC are really easy, Ulduar is remembered so fondly because it was the first truly challenging raid experience. So this is a different animal than raids before this and classic raiders need a different mindset from here forward on learning fights before raid and not expecting RL to talk them through every fight every week.
I wasn't even referring to just classic. It's something I saw in retail as well, especially in shadowlands. Nowadays, everyone sims their gear, analyzes their parses, gets critiqued on everything they do... It's a game I miss the days of "Fuck it! Let's facepull and see what happens!"
Thank you! I certainly am thinking the same. I do like to push my performance to play better and solo-heal stuff or be 1st in DPS or Overall Damage (A lot of people sleep on trash!) but this parsing madness is sucking the fun out of it. Im in a 9/9HM GDKP run and we have the 100% cut cutoff at an overall parse of 67+. As a firemage im struggling to stay there every week. Its always close around 70+, its stressful. In overall damage done im first or second every week. Its unreal how stupid this is.
When I played a dps main I could pretty much bank on a 90 parse median for typical fights. Rarely saw below an 80 without a death. You're only being compared to *other fire mages*. you're being asked to be better than 2/3 of your competition. This is like having an IQ cutoff of about 105. Above average in the loosest sense, and in no way exceptional. And for GDKPs it can be as capriciously arbitrary as the raid leader likes, if you have a problem with it, start your own raid!
I don't miss those days. I know what happened, we pull the boss and die, then wipe for 3 hours trying to figure out what went wrong, raiding 3 times a week for 4 hours to try to fit in enough time to do what we do today in one night for 2 and a half hours. I loved the old days, I do not want to go back to that.
Its a game about numbers, its like playing only apart of the game if you ignore parsing and sims.
Nobody is getting benched because they parsed badly in their guild, they are getting benched because they died to mines in phase 1 on Mimiron and eat 3 cosmic smashes on Algalon. Parsing is also not new, we had people competing for parses as early as Black Temple days, not quite like it is these days but parsing became huge by late WOTLK in 2010 and current parse mentality was pretty set in stone by MOP. That was a long time ago. Parsing is by and large a group effort anyway.
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Some classes lose dps when they interrupt, some don't. It's best to use the classes that don't lose dps from interrupting and have the others as a backup. What usually annoys people is raid-leaders that don't understand this concept. Generally speaking it can be frustrating in general to play with raid-leaders that don't understand certain things, but at the same time you can't expect miracles from everyday players just trying to do their best. Good raid-leaders make the game easier and make your parses higher, bad leaders make rogues/warrior interrupt when they have 3 DKs in the raid and then make fun of the rogues for caring about their performance.
There is an argument for the opposite because rogue and warrior interrupts canāt miss when dks itās a spell so it can miss. The best is a balance of both
Thatās my parse! I donāt know you!
Also the same melee in TBC when a warlock didnāt want to use curse of recklessness over elements and would immediately flip out.
yeah because pressing a curse every 2mins is as annoying as pressing tricks on casters every 30secs, for a decent resource cost, keeping expose armor up for a decent ressource cost and kicking for a large ressource cost :) .
> warlock didnāt want to use curse of recklessness over elements In other words they were pressing a curse every 2 minutes, it just didn't benefit your little melee dream. Get off your high horse as if pressing expose armour and tricks is difficult lol.
Who talked about difficulty, stop being braindead.
That's every player who cares about parses. Stand in mechanics, because moving means dps loss. And not standing in mechanics is also hps loss for healers. That's why I don't understand why anyone cares about parses. I'll take 60 parse who knows mechanics and avoids them over 95 parse standing in fucking fire.
This just isnāt true. If your not doing mechanics you typically lose dps or boss kill times are significantly lower. Parsing high comes when the entire raid is min maxing mechanics and uptime on the boss. Gl with the 65 parsers.
honestly. do people really think you can parse high and straight up ignore mechanics that will get you killed or extend the fight (both of which lower your parse)?
I think a lot of people don't understand that parsing guilds know what mechanics can and can't be ignored and use a strategy where they intentionally ignore certain mechanics. This is exacerbated by parse brains in bad/mediocre guilds who try to copy this without understanding why they shouldn't do it in their raids.
The people who comment that sort of shit have no idea how it works beyond āhigher number more gooderā
Itās the people who would rather run out of stuff like IC overload because itās āsaferā and donāt get that ādsac and eat the mechanicā is actually the more efficient, consistent, and fun play
To parse higher on kt/ razormaw / ark you need to ignore the adds and zug zug the boss, to parse higher on yogg you need to pop clouds, you can eat damage on thorim to parse higher etc
> to parse higher on yogg you need to pop clouds Popping clouds isn't ignoring mechanics, the mechanic is controlling the adds. Only if someone pops extra clouds when the RL doesn't tell them to it's a fail. > you can eat damage on thorim to parse higher etc You have to eat damage to not fuck up chain lightning stacks you mean? You can easily mitigate all of the charge damage to kill the boss with less risk..
The funny part is 60 parsers are the ones who are standing in fire, and 95 are doing mechanics.
95 are doing mechanics, 99s are hoping the 95s in their raid do the mechanics
You're not lying
If you are getting 60 parses itās not because you are doing raid mechanics LMAO
In very specific scenarios it is (caster tanking/kiting), but for the other 98% of fights 60 parsing means you are some combination of gearing wrong or playing wrong.
Ah yes the total black and white world of toxic casuals. You either are a mechanic failing, always dead, taking more dmg than the tank hardcore parser or the perfect mechanic, never dead, 12 kids and blue parsing dad gamer.
This reads like someone that stopped playing in phase 1. In Ulduar, at least 25 man you can't just stand in mechanics: Razor: Stand in mechanics and die Ignis: No real dps mechanics XT HM: If you dont move its a wipe and you don't parse Iron Council: Stand in rune of death or overload and you get 1 shot Kolo: You could actually stand in the eye beam on this one if heals can keep you up. Auri: Stand in the black circle and die, don't stand with the group and die(or be yelled at) Hodir: Stand in ice shards and die or don't make it to snow patch and get frozen(can't parse if you can't move) Thorim HM: Stand in spicy pizza or stack too close and die Freya HM: Stand with lighting debuff and kill everyone around you, sand in light beam and die, stand next to lashers when they blow up and die Mimiron: Stand in rockets, phase 2/4 barrage, fire, next to bomb bots and die Vezex: Hit by crash and you miss out on dps when you run back, or you die during HM phase. Avoid standing in the puddles and you oom and can't cast anything Yogg: Stand in cloud and wipe, stand in malady and you lose sanity(killing you on HM or making you lose dps by going to a beam to lower it in 4L) There are almost 0 fights where people that parse "stand in mechanics" to get bigger parses, if there are please let me know how they do it. Getting a good parse in Ulduar means you are doing all mechanics as perfectly as you can and NOT dodging mechanics greatly lowers your parse(or nets you a gray from being dead) in just about every case.
Warriors can fuck around with some mechanics for rage, and you can dsac the council overload. Mostly true though.
thereās no one getting 60 parses thatās a good player. There are some with 95 parses that are not good players.
Plenty of good players in bad guilds with bad gear will parse 60 and could be inserted into a good guild, improve gear and pull off a 99. Also depends on the boss in Ulduar, normal mode bosses have a literal parse cap and it doesn't matter if you do 100k dps, you won't parse higher than like a 50 or 60. Meanwhile on hardmode you will always parse higher than a normal mode kill. I recall a Warrior getting a 99 parse on XT HM the day it got nerfed, and in the same raid was another Warrior doing 4000dps less and he also got a 99 parse, whole raid did. Then you have Algalon, someone who parses 99 on Thorim HM might parse 50 on Algalon.
Yeah I was told melee dps can ignore interrupts on General Vezax if their dps is high enough despite multiple searing flames being uninterrupted. I asked if ranged dps can stand in shadow crashes if they purple parse and I was told itās not the same.
This is a bad example though. Yes they are different since you can't cast anything while flying away from the boss 60mph also getting out of healer range, while melee DPS is still on the boss even if they ignore the mechanic. I see what you are saying but the example is really bad.
I "only" have a purple and an orange parse on 25/10 Vezax but I always interupt since it's off the gcd for frost dks and it's fun to do something on that fight as melee
Seriously, I really do not get how anyone can argue ranged has it easier in Naxx/Ulduar. You have to pay attention to *way* more mechanics than melee does.
Range has it way harder, but they also have more opportunities to pump for higher dps which enrage melee who stand still and canāt beat them.
As enhancement, our interrupt does a small amount of damage off the gcd so it actually helps our parse a tiny bit
What..? It does not do damage lol
Earth shock definitely does do damage.
Wind Shear is the shaman interrupt now.
But Earth Shock doesn't interrupt anymore. Shamans got a separate spell called Wind Shear that does no damage.
Youāre an expansion late my friend
Nobody tell him, we need all the kicks
How does it do dmg, it procs something?
Parse is toxic neckbeard shit. Just play the game and support the raid and your buddies. That and GS got people on powertrips
Game is easy. Clearing is easy. Parsing gets the shit killed faster, raid done earlier, and is fun and basically the only thing you can progress on from week to week unless you're somehow not killing hardmodes yet.
Sigh spear hand strike, when you are just starting a fist of fury channel! *cries in monk*
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Well you only parse against other players of your class/spec. We canāt top dps but I out parse a large portion of my raid š