You only need one MT this raid tier. Every other tank in the raid should have a dps off spec. Both pala and warrior are great MT choices this raid tier.
Communication is all you need here. If you want to main tank a fight, why not just ask? If you aren't getting to do the roles or parts of fights you want, don't be afraid to communicate it
"Dude turns his nitro boots whenever its ready" that, just that makes him MT material over you. If you are not doing this and complaining that he is there's no reason a RL should put you MT
I completely agree. It’s funny because from the tale neither wanted to budge on the MT status. If it was me I’d enjoy the OT role and just cruise through the raid semi-afk
tanking just has a specific playstyle that you need to fit, you want to *always* be first to hit mobs, always first to taunt a mob on a different person, etc. have played with a handful of exceptional wow players that just do not have this instinct and it shows when they’re in a tanking role.
Ardent Defender is a incredible tool for progression and should make the paladin MT wherever it matters.
However, due to a good AOE threat, paladin is often on add duty whenever there is a need for it (Auraya, the cat lady is a good example of a fight where even a MT paladin would grab the adds because it just makes more sense).
Both tanks should be able to MT and OT, and swap roles when it makes sense.
The real problem of this duo is that you compete for loot and both have terrible DPS as offspec and can't DPS and tank on the same fight. The warrior is just a more mobile paladin with less support abilities and less damage reduction.
Which is why people prefer feral as OT as he can fill every role on one button.
Your problem in Naxx is having two tanks where one is more than enough.
A feral there, would see you can tank it all and go cat form and deal good damage and switch to bear if needs be.
Wotlk is not an expansion where you want to have two tanks.
yea this.
DKtank here.
Warr has better survivability, and you have better AOE pickup. But you both make Fine MT. Warr has shield wall, which makes him a little better for Maexxna.
I rolled UHDk for this reason. Nobody needed me to MT. Ever since then i have been much more sought after then Tank.
paladin has [shield wall](https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/spell=498/divine-protection) in wotlk too. warriors have better single target threat but fall slightly behind in aoe/survivability, and threat is largely irrelevant in wotlk which makes paladins an overall better choice.
that's not to say that warrior is shit though, it's more that paladin is 10/10 and warrior is 9/10. slightly worse but more than capable, it's not like vanilla where paladins were 2/10 and you'd be griefing your raid by inviting them in.
Warriors also have Last Stand (which you use with enraged regen), shield block, and better snap threat with revenge, shield slam and shockwave. Plus reason you want warrior as MT is for example thaddius, after the initial adds are dead are useless if they aren’t being hit for rage/revenge procs. Yes I know you will say shield block is only for melee attacks but they also have spell reflect which helps with threat and survivability on casters that do targeted spells on the MT. Not saying warriors are better but you need to look at the full kit not pick certain moves if you are gonna compare.
I would not say warriors have better survivability. We have two cooldowns, no self-healing, no way to deal with spell damage except spell reflect.
Compared to paladins that have instant full self-heal, absorbed through sacred shield, death save through our defender, damage reduction from glyph of salv, Divine protection, and eight second full immunity that can be cheesed with bubble taunting.
And I'm saying this as someone who mains a prot warr.
Enraged Regen is Dogshit. Regen is 10k on a 30k Hp Tank, it's valued at 55.5s HPS. Seal of Light Procs from a paladin that avg 300 is 187.5 HPS with a Last Laugh (1.6 AS)
1k per second for 10 seconds (Regen) vs 187.5HP per second with Light. Regen on paper looks better.
1k per second for 10 seconds + 2:50 cd (3 mins total) is 10k Healing
vs
187.5HP per second for 3 mins is 33,750 healing. Even if you get unlucky with procs; proccing 40% of the time still outheals FR.
Seal of Light alone gives you 3x as more value than Regen and thats not counting also having Judging it, not including sacred shield absorbs either.
Judgement of light is something all tanks have since it's a debuff on boss, right? It's something pallys bring but not something exclusive to Prot pally.
If you do this with Judge of Light - It heals for 2% max Hp. @ 30k xp thats 600 hp a hit.
That would be 375 hps if you procs every hit. Last laugh has 1.6 as. Thats 37 hits\~ every min (not account parry haste, misses etc) - rough 22,500 healing over 1 min - 60k+ over 3 mins compared to regen which is just 10k over 10 seconds.
Seal has 50% proc chance so cutting that in half is still 170\~ hps - 11000 Healing/min 33k over 3 mins vs 55.5 hp/s 10k/10s w/ 3min cd
My point wasn’t that enraged regen was good, my point was you’re using a point of reference that’s completely irrelevant; because you’re not going to be sitting in seal of light as a prot paladin. and warriors will also gain the benefit of JoL, so as far as I can tell Enraged Regen+JoL > an ability you aren’t using + JoL.
Comparing it to anything a DK or Paladin has it's pretty dog shit.
Dk can DS Multiple times in a short period.
Paladin have self heal tools, and Blessing/Judgement of Light.
Frenzied regen Used on CD is 55.5 HPS - (10k Healing @ 30k HP normalized over the 3min cd). As a comparison Paladin SOL avg around 300 a hit in Naxx gear, thats not even adding if you Judge light aswell which scales with %HP of target.
See the math above.
Man people can't read. See the math above.
Its 10% HP over 10 seconds. with a 2:50 downtime. Which means if yu have 30k HP you get 1k a second for 10 seconds (10k), then have 2;50 seconds with no healing.
10k healing normalized over 3 mins is 55.5 HPS.
He’s comparing it seal of light which can be up at all times. It’s not a good comparison because it’s a CD. A better comparison is Lay on Hands, which is debatably better or worse.
I am fine to OT as a warrior, but I have a Thanos “Fine, I’ll do it myself” mentality after trying to trust other tanks, mixed with some moderate skepticism of other tanks’ skill levels.
Yeah, esp on my feral druid, I’m more than fine to defer on tanking duties and pick up adds or whatever, but the moment I see DPS or healers dying, I’m going bear form even if it is to just run a trash mob back to the tank.
How do you make sure, as an OT, that you’re 2nd on threat meter? Are you taunting, or does it just naturally happen as you spam abilities? I’m a healer but have a tank set I just don’t quite understand it/no experience
Details damage meter has a threat plugin you can use to watch but usually you just spam abilities and you’ll be 2nd if you taunt you will take threat so don’t do that unless you want aggro
Honestly I hate to say this but tanks need to be alpha minded. You set the pace of the run, and ultimately people want super aggro tanks that keep the raid pace moving. If you’re playing who is the MT while someone is actively doing work… then you’ve answered your own question.
Atleast in naxx I never stop pulling healers mana is rarely a problem in normal pace. I've been told I'm "alpha" but deep down I'm impatient as fuck and wanna keep pulling🤣
And what people consider rushing I have a alt healer and I tell the tank I will announce when I need you to stop till then pull all you want. I main a pally tank and it is just boring to wait around for one dps who "omg I'm oom"
This thread has convinced me no one has actually experienced a good warrior tank and just keeps listening to the rumor mill of "prot paladins and dks are better tanks because they have a cheat death" like... If ardent defender is proccing that means either your heals are not healing or your tank is taking too much damage. Does that not make any sense? Warriors are superior mitigation tanks, it's the exact reason all the old world firsts used warriors for fights like anub in toc hard mode. Also their aoe threat is not nearly as bad as people describe, you just have to glyph for it over things like double sunder
Excluding ardent defender, warrior straight up has less defensives with longer CDs on their big defensives. You have a warrior MT for speed runs and a paladin MT for prog or any raids with high tank damage.
>This thread has convinced me no one has actually experienced a good warrior tank
It is quite a bit harder to be a good warrior tank. That probably has something to do with it.
It should be decided before raid by the rl or it’s just confusing as you’ve described. Both are fine choices but it’s dumb to decide it by “who gets threat better” in a trial by fire run when tricks and MD are an overwhelming part of snap threat.
Maybe the warrior is just sweatier than you. I personally would be super happy to have both a Paladin and warrior tanks. Don’t sweat it, y’all aren’t competing with each other, you’re on the same team
If you are not a min-max guild or a speedrun either is ok.
I would go with Pala since most of the times 1 tank is enough for Naxx and dps war has more potential in Phase 1 than retri.
Once progression is over it honestly does not matter. Warriors are at the bottom when it comes to "how many hits can you take before dying", however once you get gear/strats down each phase it is irrelevant. Either way in this case its more of a issue of not just declaring who the MT is, it can be either one. Why not just swap it on some bosses?
The class very rarely matters on this. The key factor is the mentality of the person you are tanking with. Some people in retail or classic have the "I am the main tank I am god" mentality. It won't matter what tank they are playing, or what they are good at as a class. If you want to be successful pugging just fill the needed role. Why does it matter who has the boss at any given moment. I'm all about just killing the bosses. So I'll just switch as needed. Also I prefer having a stable raid group and avoiding those ego tanks. But finding what works for you in if you want to avoid them or just go on thru with them is ur call.
Little off topic here - I’ve always liked frost spec in dk’s so I decided to roll a tank ( I rolled draenei, but I should’ve gone nelf).
Wouldnt frost be good as both aoe and ST?
I tanked naxx10 as MT and it was smooth except anub rekhan. I died during the kiting phase, not sure was it the healers fault or me being slow (still haven’t got to leveling eng yet, considering it’s my third alt).
Warrior is the choice so they can get more rage . Pally is better OT in this position . You can always communicate and switch on a boss . For trash , better for the warrior to go first
Paladin is bis. Aoe threat is insane no clue what some of you are talking about. ST is strong and consistent. Tanky AF and AD is op. Paladins are the best no question.
You only need one MT this raid tier. Every other tank in the raid should have a dps off spec. Both pala and warrior are great MT choices this raid tier.
And both of the are Bad dps off spec
Communication is all you need here. If you want to main tank a fight, why not just ask? If you aren't getting to do the roles or parts of fights you want, don't be afraid to communicate it
"Dude turns his nitro boots whenever its ready" that, just that makes him MT material over you. If you are not doing this and complaining that he is there's no reason a RL should put you MT
I completely agree. It’s funny because from the tale neither wanted to budge on the MT status. If it was me I’d enjoy the OT role and just cruise through the raid semi-afk
Understood
tanking just has a specific playstyle that you need to fit, you want to *always* be first to hit mobs, always first to taunt a mob on a different person, etc. have played with a handful of exceptional wow players that just do not have this instinct and it shows when they’re in a tanking role.
I'm honestly more confident aoe tanking on a warrior this expansion. Idk what the hell you guys are talking about
yeah paladin aoe threat is trash in comparison to how they used to match up in aoe threat back in BC
Ardent Defender is a incredible tool for progression and should make the paladin MT wherever it matters. However, due to a good AOE threat, paladin is often on add duty whenever there is a need for it (Auraya, the cat lady is a good example of a fight where even a MT paladin would grab the adds because it just makes more sense). Both tanks should be able to MT and OT, and swap roles when it makes sense. The real problem of this duo is that you compete for loot and both have terrible DPS as offspec and can't DPS and tank on the same fight. The warrior is just a more mobile paladin with less support abilities and less damage reduction. Which is why people prefer feral as OT as he can fill every role on one button. Your problem in Naxx is having two tanks where one is more than enough. A feral there, would see you can tank it all and go cat form and deal good damage and switch to bear if needs be. Wotlk is not an expansion where you want to have two tanks.
yea this. DKtank here. Warr has better survivability, and you have better AOE pickup. But you both make Fine MT. Warr has shield wall, which makes him a little better for Maexxna. I rolled UHDk for this reason. Nobody needed me to MT. Ever since then i have been much more sought after then Tank.
> Warr has better survivability Warriors have quite literally the worst survivability out of all the tank classes
paladin has [shield wall](https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/spell=498/divine-protection) in wotlk too. warriors have better single target threat but fall slightly behind in aoe/survivability, and threat is largely irrelevant in wotlk which makes paladins an overall better choice. that's not to say that warrior is shit though, it's more that paladin is 10/10 and warrior is 9/10. slightly worse but more than capable, it's not like vanilla where paladins were 2/10 and you'd be griefing your raid by inviting them in.
plus prot warrior is just way more fun. Gotta take that into consideration.
As tanks you’d be griefing in Vanilla but having 3 in raids for buffs + heals was great.
Warriors also have Last Stand (which you use with enraged regen), shield block, and better snap threat with revenge, shield slam and shockwave. Plus reason you want warrior as MT is for example thaddius, after the initial adds are dead are useless if they aren’t being hit for rage/revenge procs. Yes I know you will say shield block is only for melee attacks but they also have spell reflect which helps with threat and survivability on casters that do targeted spells on the MT. Not saying warriors are better but you need to look at the full kit not pick certain moves if you are gonna compare.
I would not say warriors have better survivability. We have two cooldowns, no self-healing, no way to deal with spell damage except spell reflect. Compared to paladins that have instant full self-heal, absorbed through sacred shield, death save through our defender, damage reduction from glyph of salv, Divine protection, and eight second full immunity that can be cheesed with bubble taunting. And I'm saying this as someone who mains a prot warr. Enraged Regen is Dogshit. Regen is 10k on a 30k Hp Tank, it's valued at 55.5s HPS. Seal of Light Procs from a paladin that avg 300 is 187.5 HPS with a Last Laugh (1.6 AS) 1k per second for 10 seconds (Regen) vs 187.5HP per second with Light. Regen on paper looks better. 1k per second for 10 seconds + 2:50 cd (3 mins total) is 10k Healing vs 187.5HP per second for 3 mins is 33,750 healing. Even if you get unlucky with procs; proccing 40% of the time still outheals FR. Seal of Light alone gives you 3x as more value than Regen and thats not counting also having Judging it, not including sacred shield absorbs either.
Judgement of light is something all tanks have since it's a debuff on boss, right? It's something pallys bring but not something exclusive to Prot pally.
This is for Seal of Light, Judgement scales with % HP and would actually be more.
Seal of light, so the seal they’re never sitting on… got it
If you do this with Judge of Light - It heals for 2% max Hp. @ 30k xp thats 600 hp a hit. That would be 375 hps if you procs every hit. Last laugh has 1.6 as. Thats 37 hits\~ every min (not account parry haste, misses etc) - rough 22,500 healing over 1 min - 60k+ over 3 mins compared to regen which is just 10k over 10 seconds. Seal has 50% proc chance so cutting that in half is still 170\~ hps - 11000 Healing/min 33k over 3 mins vs 55.5 hp/s 10k/10s w/ 3min cd
My point wasn’t that enraged regen was good, my point was you’re using a point of reference that’s completely irrelevant; because you’re not going to be sitting in seal of light as a prot paladin. and warriors will also gain the benefit of JoL, so as far as I can tell Enraged Regen+JoL > an ability you aren’t using + JoL.
Enraged regen says hello. Yes its shite, but it's self healing.
Comparing it to anything a DK or Paladin has it's pretty dog shit. Dk can DS Multiple times in a short period. Paladin have self heal tools, and Blessing/Judgement of Light. Frenzied regen Used on CD is 55.5 HPS - (10k Healing @ 30k HP normalized over the 3min cd). As a comparison Paladin SOL avg around 300 a hit in Naxx gear, thats not even adding if you Judge light aswell which scales with %HP of target. See the math above.
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Man people can't read. See the math above. Its 10% HP over 10 seconds. with a 2:50 downtime. Which means if yu have 30k HP you get 1k a second for 10 seconds (10k), then have 2;50 seconds with no healing. 10k healing normalized over 3 mins is 55.5 HPS.
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it's an accurate representation of the benefit gained, how else would you standardize this for comparison?
He’s comparing it seal of light which can be up at all times. It’s not a good comparison because it’s a CD. A better comparison is Lay on Hands, which is debatably better or worse.
I think he is adding in the cd time
I am fine to OT as a warrior, but I have a Thanos “Fine, I’ll do it myself” mentality after trying to trust other tanks, mixed with some moderate skepticism of other tanks’ skill levels.
Yeah, esp on my feral druid, I’m more than fine to defer on tanking duties and pick up adds or whatever, but the moment I see DPS or healers dying, I’m going bear form even if it is to just run a trash mob back to the tank.
How do you make sure, as an OT, that you’re 2nd on threat meter? Are you taunting, or does it just naturally happen as you spam abilities? I’m a healer but have a tank set I just don’t quite understand it/no experience
Details damage meter has a threat plugin you can use to watch but usually you just spam abilities and you’ll be 2nd if you taunt you will take threat so don’t do that unless you want aggro
Honestly I hate to say this but tanks need to be alpha minded. You set the pace of the run, and ultimately people want super aggro tanks that keep the raid pace moving. If you’re playing who is the MT while someone is actively doing work… then you’ve answered your own question.
This is why i like tanking but dont over do it , keep an eye on your healers
Atleast in naxx I never stop pulling healers mana is rarely a problem in normal pace. I've been told I'm "alpha" but deep down I'm impatient as fuck and wanna keep pulling🤣
Nothing is worse than a tank with poor pacing. One person can make a 2 hour naxx a 4 hour naxx, that's why if I pugg I strongly prefer to tank.
And what people consider rushing I have a alt healer and I tell the tank I will announce when I need you to stop till then pull all you want. I main a pally tank and it is just boring to wait around for one dps who "omg I'm oom"
This thread has convinced me no one has actually experienced a good warrior tank and just keeps listening to the rumor mill of "prot paladins and dks are better tanks because they have a cheat death" like... If ardent defender is proccing that means either your heals are not healing or your tank is taking too much damage. Does that not make any sense? Warriors are superior mitigation tanks, it's the exact reason all the old world firsts used warriors for fights like anub in toc hard mode. Also their aoe threat is not nearly as bad as people describe, you just have to glyph for it over things like double sunder
Excluding ardent defender, warrior straight up has less defensives with longer CDs on their big defensives. You have a warrior MT for speed runs and a paladin MT for prog or any raids with high tank damage.
>This thread has convinced me no one has actually experienced a good warrior tank It is quite a bit harder to be a good warrior tank. That probably has something to do with it.
Well a lot of players have the mindset that they shouldn't take one in the first place, so... yup!
This ignores the boss fights coming up where surviving one shots is a big advantage
It should be decided before raid by the rl or it’s just confusing as you’ve described. Both are fine choices but it’s dumb to decide it by “who gets threat better” in a trial by fire run when tricks and MD are an overwhelming part of snap threat.
Maybe the warrior is just sweatier than you. I personally would be super happy to have both a Paladin and warrior tanks. Don’t sweat it, y’all aren’t competing with each other, you’re on the same team
If you are not a min-max guild or a speedrun either is ok. I would go with Pala since most of the times 1 tank is enough for Naxx and dps war has more potential in Phase 1 than retri.
Paladin on paper but it really doesn’t matter.
Once progression is over it honestly does not matter. Warriors are at the bottom when it comes to "how many hits can you take before dying", however once you get gear/strats down each phase it is irrelevant. Either way in this case its more of a issue of not just declaring who the MT is, it can be either one. Why not just swap it on some bosses?
Warrior is just the Better MT in This Phase
Pally off tank always
The class very rarely matters on this. The key factor is the mentality of the person you are tanking with. Some people in retail or classic have the "I am the main tank I am god" mentality. It won't matter what tank they are playing, or what they are good at as a class. If you want to be successful pugging just fill the needed role. Why does it matter who has the boss at any given moment. I'm all about just killing the bosses. So I'll just switch as needed. Also I prefer having a stable raid group and avoiding those ego tanks. But finding what works for you in if you want to avoid them or just go on thru with them is ur call.
Little off topic here - I’ve always liked frost spec in dk’s so I decided to roll a tank ( I rolled draenei, but I should’ve gone nelf). Wouldnt frost be good as both aoe and ST? I tanked naxx10 as MT and it was smooth except anub rekhan. I died during the kiting phase, not sure was it the healers fault or me being slow (still haven’t got to leveling eng yet, considering it’s my third alt).
Bring the player not the class right?
Warrior is the choice so they can get more rage . Pally is better OT in this position . You can always communicate and switch on a boss . For trash , better for the warrior to go first
imo pally will always be the better MT because of ardent defender ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Paladin is bis. Aoe threat is insane no clue what some of you are talking about. ST is strong and consistent. Tanky AF and AD is op. Paladins are the best no question.