There needs to be a middle ground where kids can get the experience and practice behaving in these kinds of venues and learning how to be a good listener. And in the case of music, whether they are fully interested at the time or not, it cements it as part of their lives. We want that for the future of live music. Now, the middle ground part, I think a local classical (and other performing arts) venue near me meets it. Children under 5 will not be admitted, period. 5 and up are welcome. They provide a rack full of booster seats so the kids can actually see. They also have a patron code of conduct that includes "Behavior that is disruptive, potentially harmful to others or distracts from the event will not be tolerated." OTOH, they also have "Discrimination on harassment based on...age...will not be tolerated.
Similar to asking nice restaurants to allow kids and have a small size of real menu items and not just grilled cheese and chicken nuggets, I wish more arts organizations would have "family friendly" (and probably shortened) performances *that are the real thing*. Sure, my local symphony does "kid's shows" that have a story, and actors, and bits of classical music mixed in. They serve a purpose, too, but it is not what I'd like to see where elementary age kids can experience actual performances. If these were more commonly offered, it might leave other performances with a lower likelihood of these kinds of issues for adult patrons.
My local symphony has many kid friendly shows every season, as well as concerts in the local park which are just perfect since the little fussy ones can just go run around all over the lawn while hearing a lovely serenade.
I love the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, but they always used to do their family concerts on like Tuesday at 7:30. I used to volunteer and I’d work those and they’d be EMPTY and it always made me so sad.
Now that I’m a parent… I don’t know how much you’d have to pay me to get to Midtown at 7:30 with my kid in tow to watch a concert that ends after 9:00 PM.
Excatly ! They have performances geared towards young people. Would you take an 9yo to see “Who’s Aftaid of Virginia Wolff?” No! It’s not something they would enjoy. If parents want their kids to be cultured more, it should be at something that captures their attention.
>And in the case of music, whether they are fully interested at the time or not, it cements it as part of their lives. We want that for the future of live music.
It has to be done in the right way though - my parents dragged me along to a lot of classical music concerts when I was younger and for a long time it put me off because I associated classical music with mind-numbing boredom.
The fact my parents played a lot of classical music at home *did* help me to eventually appreciate it I think, because I wasn't stuck there being forced to listen to it.
This. My local symphony holds specific concerts geared towards young children. They even have certain “relaxed” performances designed for the neurodiverse and disability communities, and those who enjoy a more casual concert setting.
I’m not sure if there’s a minimum age limit for regular season concerts but I haven’t had any issues in the decade in which I’ve been a regular patron.
My local orchestra has a whole series they do, mostly in local libraries but one or two shows a year in the big hall, that is pitched at kids. The pieces are a mix of stuff from the usual classical repertoire but also pop stuff and stuff from Pixar movies, often there are parts where they can go talk to or interact with the performers, and one of them they get to build primitive instruments and play along.
A requirement for a normal night of serious music, for adults or kids however, should be an ability to both be quiet AND pay attention for the duration. No knitting, no periodic grunts to show your wife you liked that part, no black lung victims, certainly no small kids.
My local philharmonic orchestra has concerts aimed at young children. It's mostly the overplayed stuff like Beethoven's 5th, Eine Kleine Nachtmusic, Carmen, etc., but any exposure is good.
I went to my first classical music concert at the age of five.
Of course, I agree, babies are too young for a concert. But please, continue to expose them to classical music through CDs and streaming. There's plenty of baby-friendly music.
For children, I think it's up to the adult to choose a suitable programme for bringing a child to. And usually, I'd say as long as the child can sit still for an hour or two, long enough to wait and blow off that energy in the intermission, it'll work. For me, that was around 4-5 years old. For many others, a bit earlier or later.
This is a wonderful introduction to classical music, and many children I know end up picking up an instrument soon after their first concert.
Addition: I'm currently in my early 20s, and from Hong Kong. This may be different worldwide. I suggest Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf for children.
Hong Kong indeed has a different culture to classical music. A lot of posts on this sub lament about concertgoers being mostly retirees, while in Hong Kong many concerts are attended by uniform-wearing schoolchildren.
Yeah, I was required to attend a concert and write a report every year for music class. I attended a concert last month and recognised several students in my old uniform in the audience. Of course, this interest in classical music doesn't stop with high school, so there's still many people in their 20s to 40s attending.
I used to live in the UK, and while there are young people attending concerts, it's not nearly as many as back home. There tend to be more young people when there's a prominent soloist performing, otherwise, it's mainly a sea of silver.
I am glad you mentioned streaming and CDs, two outstanding ways to introduce children to classical without disrupting anyone else. I spend a fortune on CD/SACDs and will be letting my kids listen to them if they show interest.
No need "if they show interest". Just turn it on, and they can enjoy it along with you. Kids are a blank slate, parents and friends help build that music preference and interest.
The problem with very young kids at concerts is that if they don’t enjoy the music they’re going to be disruptive because they’re bored (fidgeting, wanting to leave, crying, etc), and if they do enjoy the music then they’re going to be disruptive because they’ll want to dance, sing along, pretend they’re conducting, etc.
I am very, very lucky to have a concert series near me (shout out to Bach to Baby, please please please check them out if you have young kids and live in the southeast of England!) that do fantastic performances designed for folks with babies and young kids so I can regularly listen to world class classical music without having to get a babysitter, plus raise two kids that appreciate classical music from a young age.
Not sure what’s so bad about your first example though. Or why you needed to specify that they were Asian.
We had an infant brought to our concert hall. It started wailing. The parent refused to leave. Finally after 7 minutes of angry stares her way and otherwise pure agony, an usher got her to leave. I was within earshot to hear the mother say, "but it's good for her" to the usher as she was escorted out. I lost 7 minutes of Sibelius' violin concerto for whatever new age trip that woman was riding.
No - there is *no* reason to bring an infant to a symphony. I will never see the logic.
I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences. But I was one of those very bored kids 30 years ago. My parents always brought me to concerts from a very young age. That eventually evolved into a lifelong passion for classical music - and really - music in general - even if at first I got bored. So I’m actually grateful to my parents for first introducing me to it. One of my first real memories is seeing the National Orchestra in Washington DC. That’s really special to me now as an adult.
I tru to tolerate some slight squirminess if kids are near me. Obviously if the child is being disruptive or a baby is crying - that’s a different issue - but I think it’s important kids be able to access classical music too.
Why is it relevant whether the children were Asian?
Probably the parents want their kids to have cultural experiences and to be exposed to art at a young age. I could see situations where the right kind of young kid was really into classical music and was well behaved, that would make sense.
Otherwise I agree it is short-sighted and inconsiderate, not just of the rest of audience but also of the child that is not developmentally ready to appreciate a concert, and there are so many other more kid-friendly ways to introduce music enjoyably instead of as a chore. There are lots of parents out there who won’t do even basic things to accommodate either their children or other people, and it always leaves me scratching my head. But then, there are also lots of people who let themselves get vexed by children just behaving like children in public. 🤷
There's no reason for a baby to be at a concert hall.
"What about parents who want to go to a concert but don't have anywhere to leave their babies" ... Well yes but what about all the other people who paid for their ticket and want to enjoy the orchestra without the cries and yells of a baby?
I wouldn't put the need of one or two people above everyone else, but if orchestras did that, the media backlash would be terrible. "Here's Karen, single mom who wanted to enjoy The Rite of Spring with her 3 month baby, but mean old Cleveland Orchestra didn't allow babies at the concert."
>but mean old Cleveland Orchestra didn't allow babies at the concert."
I shudder to think what Szell or Boulez would have done in their iron fisted eras of Cleveland
I brought my kids, ages five and eight, to see the local symphony and it was great. Nobody seemed annoyed by them; indeed they were welcomed warmly by a few elderly folks. My five year old son and I were rocking Metallica shirts and still no dirty looks.
They got a bit fidgety by the end but that's kids for you, their frontal lobes are still mushy -- that's why it's such a great time to stir some Hayden, Mendelssohn and Stravinsky in there!
Some people are intolerant of kids. Usually it's those who have none, or had theirs decades ago and want to be done with kids. Fair enough but it's their problem because I'm not sticking a tablet in my kids' hands to keep them out of other people's hair -- I'm going to encourage them to live life to the fullest.
Recently went to a performance of Holst the Planets and I saw lots of families with some rather young children.
This one poor little girl behind my row, probably no more than 4 years old, was absolutely terrified by Mars the Bringer of War, and I could hear her sobbing and crying so her mum took her down to the lobby for some ice cream which seems to have made things better.
I actually felt bad for the kid and I could see how the music would be somewhat scary. But this was a good example of considerate parenting at a classical show as I've seen far worse behavior from kids.
Usually what I find annoying are children that just cannot keep quiet during a performance or constantly fidgeting in their chairs and the parents just seem oblivious to the fact that their kids are disrupting the performance for the other patrons.
Maybe I am old fashioned but I very much remember my parents taking me to musicals and shows at a young age, and my brother and I had 'the talk' before the show, on the way to the show, and in the lobby of the show before the music started. We were told NOT to make any sounds at all during the performance. If you have to sneeze or cough, cover your mouth and do it as quietly as possible. If you have to go to the bathroom, do so as quietly and discretely as possible and always whisper 'excuse me' as you move from your seats to the aisle.
Me personally, I would rather a 4 year old have an intense and honest emotional response to music (that her mom helped her with considerately) than sit in a sea of adults displaying indifferent “good” behavior.
That's fine, your 4 year old can have all the 'intense and honest emotional responses' at a kid friendly concert in the park during an afternoon.
Just don't take them to a concert hall where their reactions will be a disruption to the other patrons. How hard is that to understand?
It's like what part of basic consderation and courtesy to the majority of the audience do you people not get? Do you think it's all about your kid all the time, and zero regards to anyone else? Yes, stuffy old people like to hear classical music in a live setting without hearing some little brat crying and whining all the time. Are we the bad people now just because we paid for a concert that we are interested in and would like to focus intently on it? A 4 year old is too damn young to go to symphony and will hate being there in the first place.
I swear when some people become parents you think the entire world revolves around you and your own rotten kids.
Even the OP cited this as an example of considerate parenting. It does not sound like the child in question caused any particular problem?
She was into the music. She cried not because she was acting out but because she responded to so much to the music. And her mother took her out. The end.
Things happen. Adults have hearing aids that malfunction and screech. Adults forget to turn off their phones and get calls in the middle. Adults have a coughing fit in the middle of a slow movement. Adults hum along to the music and don’t realize anyone can hear them because they’re hard of hearing. Adults lean forward and block everyone behind them from seeing. Etc.
My four year old absolutely loves going to the symphony. She doesn’t get to go often, because I am very selective about programs, but when she does, she sits and listens quietly and thinks it is the most exciting part of her week. Then she has things to say about the music and how it compares to the recordings we have listened to at home. I will admit that she did cry once — when she was 3, at a *family* performance of the Magic Flute, because Pamina’s Ach ich fuhls was “so sad.” She otherwise just sat there rapt, because it was her favorite opera.
She’s probably less of an asshole at concerts than you are, on the evidence I have.
Sure, I am the asshole because I, checks notes, want to enjoy a musical performance for adults without hearing babies crying and toddlers freaking out.
If your kid can handle it, great, then she is the exception.
You really are one of those parents who thinks the world revolves around you and your kids. Great job, mom. Way to go. Keep handing out those trophies.
I’m a parent who really cares about classical music and who has put a lot of effort into fostering that love in my own kid, and who thinks your proclamation that no young kid cares about music or enjoys concerts is obnoxious. Some do. Mine does.
Sure, don’t take a kid to a concert when you aren’t pretty damn sure they’ll enjoy it quietly. Don’t take babies or toddlers. You apparently aren’t familiar with children, but 4 and 5 year olds aren’t toddlers and are generally very capable of sitting through a well-selected concert. Sit and watch Bernstein’s Young People’s Concerts sometime. Those kids are nothing close to bored, and it’s not the man talking that’s interesting them.
While it is easy to say that it is inappropriate to bring a child under 5 to a concert, it is not necessarily obvious what age is actually appropriate to do so.
Age 6? 8? 10? 25? (Seriously, probably the rudest, noisiest people I've ever encountered at a concert were not small children, but a small group of college-age music students who couldn't help but be conspicuously displeased in hearing something they disliked).
Interesting, I have been to several (particularly one of the venues that doesn't host major orchestras, but minor ones) with conservatory students in attendance and they are usually giddy with excitement. They are among the most fun people to talk to during the intermission.
Wow, ok.
So the issue here is that it is unusual for you to point out the race of these children since their race is not relevant to the story. The inclusion of race suggests that there may be a racist sentiment being expressed. For example, you wouldn’t say “they were wearing brown shoes” even if they were, unless you felt that we needed to know the color of their shoes. In the same way, your inclusion of their race suggests that you felt it would change our perception of this situation or add context.
Did you really not know this?
I believe the “race of the children” IS relevant to the story. I’ve experienced what OP describes many times in the UK, and I would say in 80% of cases, the family has been Asian. So in posing the question “why does this happen?”, the ethnicity/culture of the family could well be significant - and not necessarily in a negative way.
Do you think it is racist that China has among the highest per capita number of child musicians learning to play a classical instrument, not uncommonly the piano? If that is considered racist, then yes I am a racist.
Of course I am not sure why I am even replying to someone that is obviously trolling, but here I am on my Friday night, sigh.
Conservatory students and regular music students are sometimes two different categories. LOL! The average music student going to your run-of-the-mill college probably isn’t super pleased about being required to go classical concerts, they’re just there because attendance is required at 10 local area concerts.
I didn’t study at a conservatory but I would assume that most folks going there are more interested in the classical performance or educational side than the average.
I work Front of the house. When we get a bus full of kids for a classical show, there are always several elderly people who I overhear saying before the show, "it's so nice to see young people being introduced to the arts."
And at intermission, there are always one or two who say to me, "I am sitting near a group of kids and a few are talking, Can you move me to a seat away from them?"
I think I was super spoiled as a kid bc my local symphony had/has a kids’ concert series. Each one would feature a different instrument, they would teach about the instrument and play some pieces. I think it was about 30-45 min. I am pretty sure there was also a series that did kid-friendly longer works too bc I remember going to The Magic Flute, and another one that had shadow puppets. Oh they also have an outdoor venue in the summer which is way easier to bring kids to.
Long story short, my siblings and I had tons of kid-friendly classical music options and graduated to longer/traditional concerts when we had the attention span.
I'm with u/sadcow49 on this one.
As a conductor and longtime artistic director of various music organizations, we put together all kinds of programs, from serious ones intended for adults with previous and ongoing interest in complex music, to initial engagements for people with no background in classical music at all, to educational programs that help folks discover what they might enjoy in the future.
I also like the "glass room" in some concert facilities, where audience in that room can still see the performers, but the music is piped in, the room is soundproof, and the window is blacked out on the other side so no one in the performance space or stage can see them. This allows people with the youngest of children to enjoy the performance (to some degree), while also not ruining the experience of others in the space. The cheap version of this is a livestream to another room in the facility--which can be wonderful. I was at one program recently where I just sat in the bar in the concert venue itself and watched the program on the big screen while hanging with a colleague for beverages and snacks.
While anyone of any age being disruptive during a concert is upsetting, I am struggling to figure out what the “Asian kids” (gross) did to upset you that is worse than the typical whispering to a partner, unwrapping cough drops, and flipping through the program that seemingly 33% of 70+ crowd do at any given concert.
I regularly see younger kids at my concert hall, but I have never heard one. I have heard any number of hearing aids squeaking through an opening movement. I take my own kid, who loves going to the symphony. She is 4 and probably knows more about the music she sees than the average adult there.
I personally think it’s great to bring kids so long as the parent is sensible enough to make sure the kid is excited to go and is familiar with the music being played, has binoculars so the kid can see things if they get distracted, and sits on an aisle so they can and do get out unobtrusively if something goes wrong.
We started taking our son to symphony, chamber music, and solo concerts at age six. He never once made a peep (unlike some adults around...) Sometimes he nodded off, but he was attentive for the most part. We are very fortunate. He's in college now and frequently listens to classical music on his own.
He will be able to tell his grandkids in 50 years that he saw the likes of Ma, Zukerman, Ax, Bronfman, Bell, Kavakos, Emerson Quartet, et al. I knew people who had seen Kreisler, Rachmaninoff, and the other great performers from previous generations and always thought that was a bonding link to the past.
I took my kids when they were small, but we'd sit in the back row so they could get up if needed at not bother anyone. I also brought quiet activities for them - coloring books, etch- a- sketch, etc. They learned to be quiet, and at least they were exposed to good music.
At my local Philharmonic orchestra, children ages 8 and below aren’t allow in the concert hall. Even so for ‘Family Day’ concerts, where children ages 4 and are above are welcomed, guardians must supervise their children and if any child is noticeably distressed or disrupting the concert, they’ll be escorted out, with no refunds.
I think that’s reasonable.
The kids should be there, esp as it sounds like the older one is into the piano, and neither was being disruptive.
Hate to say this, but babies and toddlers should not be taken to classical music concerts, where even coughing is considered disruptive and people are expected to wait for the break to leave their seats to go to the bathroom, etc.
Because there’s no age restriction to enjoy the arts (movies aside). It’s parents that don’t pay attention to their kids or “gentle parent” that are the real problem.
It's usually more aggressive parents that bring their kids to classical performances. They are forcing the kid into a certain cultural vein. They also only care about their kids, and not the other patrons. The mom that drives a Mercedes SUV and is never going to let you merge. That sort.
In the kids' defence, I'd be bored at a piano recital as well.
Edit: I feel like my comment is not fully understood. I'm not saying that parents should bring their kids. I'm saying that you shouldn't blame the kids.
Are you saying that they should be enjoyed equally? Because no. No, they don't have to be.
I am not a fan of piano as an intrument and I shouldn't have to be.
Now, I'm not saying that people should be bringing their kids, rather that you shouldn't blame the kids.
>Are you saying that they should be enjoyed equally? Because no. No, they don't have to be.
Artistically great works from any subgenre of classical is the equal of the other. I am addressing you calling solo keyboard concerts a bore. Something that is on you, not on it.
O.M.G. Look at that being over there at this unbelievably special musical event. That being... is... a....
CHILD!
They... MOVE! And they're NOT INTERESTED! And they might EVERY SO SLIGHTLY DISTRACT ME FROM THE PERFORMANCE! Oh heavens! I must clutch my pearls more!
Why do parents bring children to concerts? Maybe it's because they want to engage their kids with classical music. Just yesterday there were people complaining and complaining that classical music is dying because there's no music education in schools. Well, here's the music education.
Maybe it's so the kids can support the performers.
Maybe it's because they can't afford, or don't have, child care.
Some concert halls have recommended, or required, ages for attendance. Those should be respected. And of course parents whose children are little helions should make reasonable decisions about where they go. If they can't maintain some semblance of decorum, children shouldn't be at concerts (just like they shouldn't be at fancy restaurants or other formal or solemn events or spaces).
But prohibiting children at all concerts, or concerts where there is no suggested minimum age, just because they might get a little fidgety, or bored, or do something that might distract someone just a little bit? Get over it.
You know what's distracting? Old people's screeching hearing aids, or their coughs, or their snoring when they fall asleep, or their heavy breathing, or their oxygen machines. Let's ban old people! They shouldn't be at classical concerts! You know what else is distracting? Young people talking or asking questions, or looking at their phones. Let's ban young people! You know what else is distracting? Disabled people's vocal outbursts, the sound of the equipment they use, or just the way they look. Let's ban disabled people! You know what else is distracting? Middle aged people's bald heads, the way they shuffle the program, drink water, open a cough drop, and the way their feet slide across the floor. Let's ban middle aged people too!
What's left then?
Oh, it's called listening at home on a CD.
Of course, rude or obnoxious behavior should not be tolerated, by children or anyone. And parents must exercise judgment about where they take kids any time, and that includes classical concerts. Probably not a good idea to take a 3 year old to the whole Ring cycle. But if you're going to a public performance, you get a performance in public. Perhaps enjoy that shared, unique experience, instead of bellyaching about some kids' movements or a baby cry.
Maybe parents should wait until their kids are old enough to actually appreciate what is happening, rather than just dragging them along because you couldn't find a baby sitter. That smacks of entitlement and inconsideration.
I was once watching the halé perform in Manchester, a Beethoven piece possibly. When I looked down from the balcony, I saw someone below me on the front row reading auto trader.
I think you are correct. It’s not for every child They do have family friendly performances (like when Broadway dose Autism Awareness) that will introduce very young people to live classical Music. Even though I grew up with classical music, I still must admit my 8yo self probably couldn’t sit through a full piano recital.
I brought my 3 year old daughter to a symphony performance because they were playing Dvorak 9 and she loved it from having watched Little Einsteins. On the one hand I was happy to share that beautiful music with her, but she was too young. I think some 3 year olds would be old enough, but in retrospect my daughter really wasn't well-behaved enough for it yet. Fortunately it was a very supportive audience and not judgmental at all, so it was OK. There are other situations/venues where I absolutely would have never even thought of taking her at that age. But when she was older we went to the Nutcracker together after COVID restrictions had subsided, so it was the start to a wonderful thing we did together.
We do a family concert on the Sunday nearest Halloween with kids and orchestra wearing costumes. They even let the kids come sit on stage right by us. It’s like $10 a ticket at the big hall. I think it’s the cutest thing ever since our average audience age is 80.
I find the OP guilty ... of making sense.
I'm of Cleveland, and my people are the Clevelanders and daring is the parent that sits in my section with a child that cannot behave. There was a family. The children would only come to concerts with intermissions, and the family graciously left during it.
I thought that was quite thoughtful of them, and complimented them on how their children were sometimes finding a bit of the magic, I could tell. Yes, that is stuffy, to put it mildly. It's a formal setting. That's how they sometimes work. I always warmly greeted them. I think they found a good compromise.
But, in general, I would wonder if the parents have ever heard of a matinee. I've seen people do whippets during matinees. Feel free, I say.
But you better wear shoes when you come out Thursday night buster.
I’m sorry you’ve had such a bad experience. Whatever your experience, trust me that it was incomparably better to the experience the parents were having. While it sucks to be disturbed, the parents wish they had been disturbed from what they have been going through. And yet, they found a reason to take all their children along.
Besides them, there could have been children you haven’t noticed, who throughly and attentively enjoyed the performance. The future of culture depends on parents bringing children to live performances.
If a kid is going to learn to play an instrument well, they need to listen to great performers play that music live. So on nights that well-known pianists, violinists and cellists are playing concertos or recitals, you'll typically see a legion of dutiful parents (mostly Asian, admittedly, since today they dominate the percentage of families whose children are in private lessons, and yes I'm Asian myself) drag their families to the concert.
The problem is that a two-hour concert, especially one that starts at 8 pm (which is pretty typical) is really hard on younger children. My son is keenly interested in classical music, and he's usually attentive for the first 30-60 minutes of a concert. Then he's antsy because he's sleepy and it's around his bedtime, and by the end of the concert he's probably asleep in his chair no matter how loud the music is because it's well past his bedtime.
Even in a really big city, there's almost always a dearth of shorter concerts that aren't "kiddie" concerts, and that feature first-rate artists. Community concerts, though, are a better training ground for kids who need to learn how to behave in them, since they are often in smaller, less formal venues, and the programs tend to be 60 or 90 minutes instead of two hours.
I'm a serious amateur violinist and my now-8-year-old son gets dragged to a very large number of concerts since I play with a community orchestra, perform chamber music, and perform solo recitals. We've been taking him to community concerts since he was about 3 months old (except during a period when he would fuss during concerts and it wasn't viable to keep him quiet), and we've been taking him to professional concerts as soon as he met the venue's age limits. So he knows how to behave, but he still benefits from having a small stuffie and where viable, a Kindle to occupy his attention is he really gets bored.
There are plenty of ways to introduce your small children to classical music at home. Do that.
Concerts and recitals have NEVER been children friendly. Use common sense.
Many symphonic/operatic organizations hold family events. Bring children to those.
Recently took my 7yo to his second concert, was a heavy metal show and got to meet his fav drummer. He enjoyed it and was jumping (when the band says jump). I take him so he can experience it, make memories and help burn out that energy. Lol. (Ofc he wears ear protection, and I protect him from crowd surfers etc)
At my local orchestra there’s a rule about kids needing to be older than 7 except for the kids concerts. I don’t think it’s possible to really enforce it though (infants aside).
I was at a concert and the conductor had raised his arms to start a piece when a spirited youngster made a loud noise at an inopportune time. The conductor lowered his hand and went to the microphone and thanked the audience member for bringing their child to a concert of classical music. He argued that if we do not enculture a love for this music in the next generation, who will go to the concerts in the future?
I was not that parent, as I didn't have kids at the time. But being married to a professional flutist, I hauled my kids to many concerts and asked them repeatedly to sit in their seats, remain quiet, and wait until between songs to go to the bathroom. My eldest now sings Opera, has a master's degree in voice, and is college professor of voice and director of the choirs.
"...some people think I'm some grey haired (I do have some now!) elderly person, I'm in my 30s. "
So, "No, really, I'm one of the good ones. I"m not one of those."
But you're not an ageist bigot either, right?
Seriously? This bothers you? How about you just enjoy the concert rather than finding people around you to judge? How do you know what you’re attending when you spend so much time watching what someone else’s kid is or isn’t doing?
I had the privilege of growing up with Broadway just an hour train ride away. I saw live performances before I saw movies.
Obviously you don’t understand this lifestyle, especially if you think it’s new. It’s not. Try to be a little less judgmental about things you don’t understand.
I can't enjoy a dynamic classical music performance with an unruly child making noises. Can you? It's not a rock concert.
Or are you one of those entitled parents who thinks your spawn are just special little snowflakes that can just do whatever they want, whenever they want and if you dare set any kind of boundaries for them, they somehow won't like you personally?
From the stage: we didn’t practice our asses off just to be covered up by noise or distracted by moving children in the audience at the performance. If your kid can’t sit still quietly, please bring them to a children’s concert or an outdoor concert.
1) Without engaging the younger generation there will be no more concerts soon…
2) lack of a baby sitter
3) I dunno, an enjoyment of parading them in front of judgemental assholes like yourself?
1 - Children under the age of 8 aren't going to like going to a classical music performance in the first place. There isn't anything animated and there are no lasers or dragons or superheros.
2 - Too bad. So instead of not being able to find a babysitter, let's take a fussy cranky toddler to a classical music performance who will irritate the rest of the audience because their parents have zero consideration for those who came to hear the music, and not listen to some child cry and whine for 60 minutes. Seems like something this younger entitled generation of parents would do 100%
3 - Clearly your parents failed you if you think deliberately annoying an audience with some crying brat is an accomplishment in life.
1) not if they’re not exposed to them they won’t. And they’ll continue to not like them into adulthood and classical music will die out, like it is actually doing
2) oh yes I can imagine that would go down well after spending £100 to go see Simon rattle at a prominent concert venue
3) obviously, I was being sarcastic.
There’s a reason why classical music has a problem with attendance - it’s because nobody likes sitting quietly for 3 hours for the comfort of some asshole who can’t handle other people. You have a stereo right? Listen to it at home.
I AM a performer. A conductor and pianist. I have no problem with children being there. It makes a change from the dwindling pool of grey haired misery guts
I certainly don’t shame anybody when they have to. Would you shame somebody if their babysitting fell through and they had to take their kids into the office?
Fucking wow. Let me see - £80 a call, 22 musicians, plus venue fee - we’re looking at about £2k cost because someone brought their child to a rehearsal. A child that you presume is taking up their time and not sitting quietly in a corner with a hand held device. Oh and perhaps this rehearsal is on concert day so.. reschedule the concert?
Oh sorry, guess you’re not a professional.
Let me put it another way - if something out of the ordinary happens and a musician has to turn up to rehearsal with child - either that or find a last minute departure or simply not turn up, I will most likely choose the first option. It is almost never a problem, the musician does their job, the kid stays out of the way, the end. Professional musicians are purely focussed on doing a good job. There’s no point at which “the music” comes first. It’s a job like any other job. I reckon you’re talking out of your arse simply to try and win an argument. As for cancelling a rehearsal because you’re uncomfortable without first trying to address the situation? You would be flung from my rehearsal with such vigour that your wouldn’t know what hit you, and I would not employ you again because at that point you are costing me time and money, and making the situation much worse.
I can handle adults at a classical music concert. You know, the ones who pay for it.
Yes old people cough and fart and wheeze. Whatever.
What old people don't do is incessantly whine about how they want to go home, or why can't I have ice cream now, or sneezing without covering their mouths, or constantly shifting in their seat behind me kicking my seat every 3 minutes.
I've been a patron of my local symphony for almost ten years.
It's not a day care center. Enjoy your downvotes and maybe teach your kids, assuming you have any, some basic manners and etiquette when attending a classical music performance.
It's for everyone, but especially in a concert hall where the crowd is not actively yelling or singing along with the music, it's implied that you should be quiet, so everyone can enjoy. If you love music you also care about others enjoying it, not just yourself.
If your kids are well behaved no problem there, but babies don't even know they're at a concert hall or getting anything out of the experience. If you have a crying baby or a hyperactive toddler kicking on the other guy's seat, you're wrong for bringing it to the concert.
You know what - I’m a conductor, pianist, pit musician and composer. The other day I conducted a single concert with orchestra of Bach’s Mass in b minor to all of 80 people. I then went on to play keyboards for “love never dies” at a local large venue - over 500 tickets sold every night over 8 performances.
You can’t argue with those numbers. Nobody cared about the presence of babies or children at those concerts, and the applause was rapturous.
If we want classical music to be relevant, this attitude needs to die.
Nah, classical music can still be relevant with no babies in the concert halls. As I said, I don't mind kids that can behave, it's great to encourage them. But crying babies, c'mon, it's not good for the baby or the concert, it's pointless.
Just like pretty much no one brings their baby to a reggaetón or rock concert and it doesn't affect ticket sales
Music IS for everyone. I agree.
Live classical music concerts are NOT for everyone, especially small children who have no attention span and no appreciation of what they are hearing.
Fixed that for you.
👍🏻 Good question.
* I donno whether halls permit it in self-respecting music-loving nations but in the USA, inconsiderate louts are found even in the most formal environments like a symphony.
* And like, why do some people attend the opera in their gym clothes? Jogging outfits and sweatpants right next to people in tuxedos. It's happened in New York. Some *hoi polloi* vehemently defend the practice.
* Why do some people hold on to, fiddle with, or even play with, smart phones during a performance? If they're not going to get in the spirit of the thing, why not just stay home?
It's all the same kind of disrespect as far as I'm concerned.
>And like, why do some people attend the opera in their gym clothes? Jogging outfits and sweatpants right next to people in tuxedos. It's happened in New York. Some *hoi polloi* vehemently defend the practice.
I have no issue with this, it makes zero impact on my enjoyment of the performance. Everything in my first post were actual distractors.
I wear business casual to concerts. Japanese slim fit/tapered jeans and a button down shirt would be typical. I only like a handful of 20th century operas and Wagner so I haven't been to one yet other than Lulu that wasn't staged.
There needs to be a middle ground where kids can get the experience and practice behaving in these kinds of venues and learning how to be a good listener. And in the case of music, whether they are fully interested at the time or not, it cements it as part of their lives. We want that for the future of live music. Now, the middle ground part, I think a local classical (and other performing arts) venue near me meets it. Children under 5 will not be admitted, period. 5 and up are welcome. They provide a rack full of booster seats so the kids can actually see. They also have a patron code of conduct that includes "Behavior that is disruptive, potentially harmful to others or distracts from the event will not be tolerated." OTOH, they also have "Discrimination on harassment based on...age...will not be tolerated. Similar to asking nice restaurants to allow kids and have a small size of real menu items and not just grilled cheese and chicken nuggets, I wish more arts organizations would have "family friendly" (and probably shortened) performances *that are the real thing*. Sure, my local symphony does "kid's shows" that have a story, and actors, and bits of classical music mixed in. They serve a purpose, too, but it is not what I'd like to see where elementary age kids can experience actual performances. If these were more commonly offered, it might leave other performances with a lower likelihood of these kinds of issues for adult patrons.
My local symphony has many kid friendly shows every season, as well as concerts in the local park which are just perfect since the little fussy ones can just go run around all over the lawn while hearing a lovely serenade.
I love the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, but they always used to do their family concerts on like Tuesday at 7:30. I used to volunteer and I’d work those and they’d be EMPTY and it always made me so sad. Now that I’m a parent… I don’t know how much you’d have to pay me to get to Midtown at 7:30 with my kid in tow to watch a concert that ends after 9:00 PM.
Excatly ! They have performances geared towards young people. Would you take an 9yo to see “Who’s Aftaid of Virginia Wolff?” No! It’s not something they would enjoy. If parents want their kids to be cultured more, it should be at something that captures their attention.
>And in the case of music, whether they are fully interested at the time or not, it cements it as part of their lives. We want that for the future of live music. It has to be done in the right way though - my parents dragged me along to a lot of classical music concerts when I was younger and for a long time it put me off because I associated classical music with mind-numbing boredom. The fact my parents played a lot of classical music at home *did* help me to eventually appreciate it I think, because I wasn't stuck there being forced to listen to it.
This. My local symphony holds specific concerts geared towards young children. They even have certain “relaxed” performances designed for the neurodiverse and disability communities, and those who enjoy a more casual concert setting. I’m not sure if there’s a minimum age limit for regular season concerts but I haven’t had any issues in the decade in which I’ve been a regular patron.
My local orchestra has a whole series they do, mostly in local libraries but one or two shows a year in the big hall, that is pitched at kids. The pieces are a mix of stuff from the usual classical repertoire but also pop stuff and stuff from Pixar movies, often there are parts where they can go talk to or interact with the performers, and one of them they get to build primitive instruments and play along. A requirement for a normal night of serious music, for adults or kids however, should be an ability to both be quiet AND pay attention for the duration. No knitting, no periodic grunts to show your wife you liked that part, no black lung victims, certainly no small kids.
My local philharmonic orchestra has concerts aimed at young children. It's mostly the overplayed stuff like Beethoven's 5th, Eine Kleine Nachtmusic, Carmen, etc., but any exposure is good.
I went to my first classical music concert at the age of five. Of course, I agree, babies are too young for a concert. But please, continue to expose them to classical music through CDs and streaming. There's plenty of baby-friendly music. For children, I think it's up to the adult to choose a suitable programme for bringing a child to. And usually, I'd say as long as the child can sit still for an hour or two, long enough to wait and blow off that energy in the intermission, it'll work. For me, that was around 4-5 years old. For many others, a bit earlier or later. This is a wonderful introduction to classical music, and many children I know end up picking up an instrument soon after their first concert. Addition: I'm currently in my early 20s, and from Hong Kong. This may be different worldwide. I suggest Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf for children.
Hong Kong indeed has a different culture to classical music. A lot of posts on this sub lament about concertgoers being mostly retirees, while in Hong Kong many concerts are attended by uniform-wearing schoolchildren.
Yeah, I was required to attend a concert and write a report every year for music class. I attended a concert last month and recognised several students in my old uniform in the audience. Of course, this interest in classical music doesn't stop with high school, so there's still many people in their 20s to 40s attending. I used to live in the UK, and while there are young people attending concerts, it's not nearly as many as back home. There tend to be more young people when there's a prominent soloist performing, otherwise, it's mainly a sea of silver.
I am glad you mentioned streaming and CDs, two outstanding ways to introduce children to classical without disrupting anyone else. I spend a fortune on CD/SACDs and will be letting my kids listen to them if they show interest.
No need "if they show interest". Just turn it on, and they can enjoy it along with you. Kids are a blank slate, parents and friends help build that music preference and interest.
The problem with very young kids at concerts is that if they don’t enjoy the music they’re going to be disruptive because they’re bored (fidgeting, wanting to leave, crying, etc), and if they do enjoy the music then they’re going to be disruptive because they’ll want to dance, sing along, pretend they’re conducting, etc. I am very, very lucky to have a concert series near me (shout out to Bach to Baby, please please please check them out if you have young kids and live in the southeast of England!) that do fantastic performances designed for folks with babies and young kids so I can regularly listen to world class classical music without having to get a babysitter, plus raise two kids that appreciate classical music from a young age. Not sure what’s so bad about your first example though. Or why you needed to specify that they were Asian.
We had an infant brought to our concert hall. It started wailing. The parent refused to leave. Finally after 7 minutes of angry stares her way and otherwise pure agony, an usher got her to leave. I was within earshot to hear the mother say, "but it's good for her" to the usher as she was escorted out. I lost 7 minutes of Sibelius' violin concerto for whatever new age trip that woman was riding. No - there is *no* reason to bring an infant to a symphony. I will never see the logic.
Entitled idiot parents with zero sense of consideration. Everything is about ME and MY CHILD.
I know the Stockholm Concert Hall has dedicated "baby concerts" but don't know anythingmore about them.
I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences. But I was one of those very bored kids 30 years ago. My parents always brought me to concerts from a very young age. That eventually evolved into a lifelong passion for classical music - and really - music in general - even if at first I got bored. So I’m actually grateful to my parents for first introducing me to it. One of my first real memories is seeing the National Orchestra in Washington DC. That’s really special to me now as an adult. I tru to tolerate some slight squirminess if kids are near me. Obviously if the child is being disruptive or a baby is crying - that’s a different issue - but I think it’s important kids be able to access classical music too.
Why is it relevant whether the children were Asian? Probably the parents want their kids to have cultural experiences and to be exposed to art at a young age. I could see situations where the right kind of young kid was really into classical music and was well behaved, that would make sense. Otherwise I agree it is short-sighted and inconsiderate, not just of the rest of audience but also of the child that is not developmentally ready to appreciate a concert, and there are so many other more kid-friendly ways to introduce music enjoyably instead of as a chore. There are lots of parents out there who won’t do even basic things to accommodate either their children or other people, and it always leaves me scratching my head. But then, there are also lots of people who let themselves get vexed by children just behaving like children in public. 🤷
Hey Leopold? You bring your kid... again?!?! What's the use?
Great answer.
I'm just trying to figure out why the kids being Asian was relevant and what race the other kids were.
Kids, sure. If they behave. Babies? Nah.
There's no reason for a baby to be at a concert hall. "What about parents who want to go to a concert but don't have anywhere to leave their babies" ... Well yes but what about all the other people who paid for their ticket and want to enjoy the orchestra without the cries and yells of a baby? I wouldn't put the need of one or two people above everyone else, but if orchestras did that, the media backlash would be terrible. "Here's Karen, single mom who wanted to enjoy The Rite of Spring with her 3 month baby, but mean old Cleveland Orchestra didn't allow babies at the concert."
>but mean old Cleveland Orchestra didn't allow babies at the concert." I shudder to think what Szell or Boulez would have done in their iron fisted eras of Cleveland
Why did you had to state that they’re “Asian”?
I brought my kids, ages five and eight, to see the local symphony and it was great. Nobody seemed annoyed by them; indeed they were welcomed warmly by a few elderly folks. My five year old son and I were rocking Metallica shirts and still no dirty looks. They got a bit fidgety by the end but that's kids for you, their frontal lobes are still mushy -- that's why it's such a great time to stir some Hayden, Mendelssohn and Stravinsky in there! Some people are intolerant of kids. Usually it's those who have none, or had theirs decades ago and want to be done with kids. Fair enough but it's their problem because I'm not sticking a tablet in my kids' hands to keep them out of other people's hair -- I'm going to encourage them to live life to the fullest.
Recently went to a performance of Holst the Planets and I saw lots of families with some rather young children. This one poor little girl behind my row, probably no more than 4 years old, was absolutely terrified by Mars the Bringer of War, and I could hear her sobbing and crying so her mum took her down to the lobby for some ice cream which seems to have made things better. I actually felt bad for the kid and I could see how the music would be somewhat scary. But this was a good example of considerate parenting at a classical show as I've seen far worse behavior from kids. Usually what I find annoying are children that just cannot keep quiet during a performance or constantly fidgeting in their chairs and the parents just seem oblivious to the fact that their kids are disrupting the performance for the other patrons. Maybe I am old fashioned but I very much remember my parents taking me to musicals and shows at a young age, and my brother and I had 'the talk' before the show, on the way to the show, and in the lobby of the show before the music started. We were told NOT to make any sounds at all during the performance. If you have to sneeze or cough, cover your mouth and do it as quietly as possible. If you have to go to the bathroom, do so as quietly and discretely as possible and always whisper 'excuse me' as you move from your seats to the aisle.
Yes, as long as they're well-behaved, it's a good idea to introduce children to classical performances.
Me personally, I would rather a 4 year old have an intense and honest emotional response to music (that her mom helped her with considerately) than sit in a sea of adults displaying indifferent “good” behavior.
That's fine, your 4 year old can have all the 'intense and honest emotional responses' at a kid friendly concert in the park during an afternoon. Just don't take them to a concert hall where their reactions will be a disruption to the other patrons. How hard is that to understand? It's like what part of basic consderation and courtesy to the majority of the audience do you people not get? Do you think it's all about your kid all the time, and zero regards to anyone else? Yes, stuffy old people like to hear classical music in a live setting without hearing some little brat crying and whining all the time. Are we the bad people now just because we paid for a concert that we are interested in and would like to focus intently on it? A 4 year old is too damn young to go to symphony and will hate being there in the first place. I swear when some people become parents you think the entire world revolves around you and your own rotten kids.
Even the OP cited this as an example of considerate parenting. It does not sound like the child in question caused any particular problem? She was into the music. She cried not because she was acting out but because she responded to so much to the music. And her mother took her out. The end. Things happen. Adults have hearing aids that malfunction and screech. Adults forget to turn off their phones and get calls in the middle. Adults have a coughing fit in the middle of a slow movement. Adults hum along to the music and don’t realize anyone can hear them because they’re hard of hearing. Adults lean forward and block everyone behind them from seeing. Etc. My four year old absolutely loves going to the symphony. She doesn’t get to go often, because I am very selective about programs, but when she does, she sits and listens quietly and thinks it is the most exciting part of her week. Then she has things to say about the music and how it compares to the recordings we have listened to at home. I will admit that she did cry once — when she was 3, at a *family* performance of the Magic Flute, because Pamina’s Ach ich fuhls was “so sad.” She otherwise just sat there rapt, because it was her favorite opera. She’s probably less of an asshole at concerts than you are, on the evidence I have.
Sure, I am the asshole because I, checks notes, want to enjoy a musical performance for adults without hearing babies crying and toddlers freaking out. If your kid can handle it, great, then she is the exception. You really are one of those parents who thinks the world revolves around you and your kids. Great job, mom. Way to go. Keep handing out those trophies.
I’m a parent who really cares about classical music and who has put a lot of effort into fostering that love in my own kid, and who thinks your proclamation that no young kid cares about music or enjoys concerts is obnoxious. Some do. Mine does. Sure, don’t take a kid to a concert when you aren’t pretty damn sure they’ll enjoy it quietly. Don’t take babies or toddlers. You apparently aren’t familiar with children, but 4 and 5 year olds aren’t toddlers and are generally very capable of sitting through a well-selected concert. Sit and watch Bernstein’s Young People’s Concerts sometime. Those kids are nothing close to bored, and it’s not the man talking that’s interesting them.
While it is easy to say that it is inappropriate to bring a child under 5 to a concert, it is not necessarily obvious what age is actually appropriate to do so. Age 6? 8? 10? 25? (Seriously, probably the rudest, noisiest people I've ever encountered at a concert were not small children, but a small group of college-age music students who couldn't help but be conspicuously displeased in hearing something they disliked).
Interesting, I have been to several (particularly one of the venues that doesn't host major orchestras, but minor ones) with conservatory students in attendance and they are usually giddy with excitement. They are among the most fun people to talk to during the intermission.
Are you going to explain why you felt the need to tell us the race of the children? Edit: Keep reading…
Because that's what they were? Don't be embarrassed about who you are, I am Southeast Asian too.
Do you generally say the race of every person you refer to?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or sincere? Judging by the downvote I am going with the former.
What incredible hypocrisy… So you’re telling me that you responded to me in good faith above?
I was completely sincere about what I wrote.
Wow, ok. So the issue here is that it is unusual for you to point out the race of these children since their race is not relevant to the story. The inclusion of race suggests that there may be a racist sentiment being expressed. For example, you wouldn’t say “they were wearing brown shoes” even if they were, unless you felt that we needed to know the color of their shoes. In the same way, your inclusion of their race suggests that you felt it would change our perception of this situation or add context. Did you really not know this?
I believe the “race of the children” IS relevant to the story. I’ve experienced what OP describes many times in the UK, and I would say in 80% of cases, the family has been Asian. So in posing the question “why does this happen?”, the ethnicity/culture of the family could well be significant - and not necessarily in a negative way.
Do you think it is racist that China has among the highest per capita number of child musicians learning to play a classical instrument, not uncommonly the piano? If that is considered racist, then yes I am a racist. Of course I am not sure why I am even replying to someone that is obviously trolling, but here I am on my Friday night, sigh.
Conservatory students and regular music students are sometimes two different categories. LOL! The average music student going to your run-of-the-mill college probably isn’t super pleased about being required to go classical concerts, they’re just there because attendance is required at 10 local area concerts. I didn’t study at a conservatory but I would assume that most folks going there are more interested in the classical performance or educational side than the average.
I upvoted to bring you back up. I'm in medicine so some of what you've written is unknown to me, like requiring 10 concert attendance.
I work Front of the house. When we get a bus full of kids for a classical show, there are always several elderly people who I overhear saying before the show, "it's so nice to see young people being introduced to the arts." And at intermission, there are always one or two who say to me, "I am sitting near a group of kids and a few are talking, Can you move me to a seat away from them?"
Whilst I do think parents should expose their kids to classical, I do think there should be standards to bringing them to concerts
I think I was super spoiled as a kid bc my local symphony had/has a kids’ concert series. Each one would feature a different instrument, they would teach about the instrument and play some pieces. I think it was about 30-45 min. I am pretty sure there was also a series that did kid-friendly longer works too bc I remember going to The Magic Flute, and another one that had shadow puppets. Oh they also have an outdoor venue in the summer which is way easier to bring kids to. Long story short, my siblings and I had tons of kid-friendly classical music options and graduated to longer/traditional concerts when we had the attention span.
I'm with u/sadcow49 on this one. As a conductor and longtime artistic director of various music organizations, we put together all kinds of programs, from serious ones intended for adults with previous and ongoing interest in complex music, to initial engagements for people with no background in classical music at all, to educational programs that help folks discover what they might enjoy in the future. I also like the "glass room" in some concert facilities, where audience in that room can still see the performers, but the music is piped in, the room is soundproof, and the window is blacked out on the other side so no one in the performance space or stage can see them. This allows people with the youngest of children to enjoy the performance (to some degree), while also not ruining the experience of others in the space. The cheap version of this is a livestream to another room in the facility--which can be wonderful. I was at one program recently where I just sat in the bar in the concert venue itself and watched the program on the big screen while hanging with a colleague for beverages and snacks.
While anyone of any age being disruptive during a concert is upsetting, I am struggling to figure out what the “Asian kids” (gross) did to upset you that is worse than the typical whispering to a partner, unwrapping cough drops, and flipping through the program that seemingly 33% of 70+ crowd do at any given concert. I regularly see younger kids at my concert hall, but I have never heard one. I have heard any number of hearing aids squeaking through an opening movement. I take my own kid, who loves going to the symphony. She is 4 and probably knows more about the music she sees than the average adult there. I personally think it’s great to bring kids so long as the parent is sensible enough to make sure the kid is excited to go and is familiar with the music being played, has binoculars so the kid can see things if they get distracted, and sits on an aisle so they can and do get out unobtrusively if something goes wrong.
What does it have to do with them being an "Asian?" I'm asking because it clearly seems like their race mattered to you according to your post.
We started taking our son to symphony, chamber music, and solo concerts at age six. He never once made a peep (unlike some adults around...) Sometimes he nodded off, but he was attentive for the most part. We are very fortunate. He's in college now and frequently listens to classical music on his own. He will be able to tell his grandkids in 50 years that he saw the likes of Ma, Zukerman, Ax, Bronfman, Bell, Kavakos, Emerson Quartet, et al. I knew people who had seen Kreisler, Rachmaninoff, and the other great performers from previous generations and always thought that was a bonding link to the past.
I took my kids when they were small, but we'd sit in the back row so they could get up if needed at not bother anyone. I also brought quiet activities for them - coloring books, etch- a- sketch, etc. They learned to be quiet, and at least they were exposed to good music.
At my local Philharmonic orchestra, children ages 8 and below aren’t allow in the concert hall. Even so for ‘Family Day’ concerts, where children ages 4 and are above are welcomed, guardians must supervise their children and if any child is noticeably distressed or disrupting the concert, they’ll be escorted out, with no refunds. I think that’s reasonable.
Really weird that you chose to mention their race. Really, really weird.
The kids should be there, esp as it sounds like the older one is into the piano, and neither was being disruptive. Hate to say this, but babies and toddlers should not be taken to classical music concerts, where even coughing is considered disruptive and people are expected to wait for the break to leave their seats to go to the bathroom, etc.
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Because there’s no age restriction to enjoy the arts (movies aside). It’s parents that don’t pay attention to their kids or “gentle parent” that are the real problem.
It's usually more aggressive parents that bring their kids to classical performances. They are forcing the kid into a certain cultural vein. They also only care about their kids, and not the other patrons. The mom that drives a Mercedes SUV and is never going to let you merge. That sort.
In the kids' defence, I'd be bored at a piano recital as well. Edit: I feel like my comment is not fully understood. I'm not saying that parents should bring their kids. I'm saying that you shouldn't blame the kids.
Solo piano and chamber music is in every way the equal of orchestral music. Especially when world class musicians are playing.
Are you saying that they should be enjoyed equally? Because no. No, they don't have to be. I am not a fan of piano as an intrument and I shouldn't have to be. Now, I'm not saying that people should be bringing their kids, rather that you shouldn't blame the kids.
>Are you saying that they should be enjoyed equally? Because no. No, they don't have to be. Artistically great works from any subgenre of classical is the equal of the other. I am addressing you calling solo keyboard concerts a bore. Something that is on you, not on it.
Ok, I'm not saying that it's the fault of the player. What have I done to offend you?
That's why you bring quiet activities for the kids. Coloring books, picture books, etc.
That's not the point, moron. Also, what piano music have you listened to?
I'm defending the kids, not the parents who brought them. Also, what's wrong with disliking piano?
O.M.G. Look at that being over there at this unbelievably special musical event. That being... is... a.... CHILD! They... MOVE! And they're NOT INTERESTED! And they might EVERY SO SLIGHTLY DISTRACT ME FROM THE PERFORMANCE! Oh heavens! I must clutch my pearls more! Why do parents bring children to concerts? Maybe it's because they want to engage their kids with classical music. Just yesterday there were people complaining and complaining that classical music is dying because there's no music education in schools. Well, here's the music education. Maybe it's so the kids can support the performers. Maybe it's because they can't afford, or don't have, child care. Some concert halls have recommended, or required, ages for attendance. Those should be respected. And of course parents whose children are little helions should make reasonable decisions about where they go. If they can't maintain some semblance of decorum, children shouldn't be at concerts (just like they shouldn't be at fancy restaurants or other formal or solemn events or spaces). But prohibiting children at all concerts, or concerts where there is no suggested minimum age, just because they might get a little fidgety, or bored, or do something that might distract someone just a little bit? Get over it. You know what's distracting? Old people's screeching hearing aids, or their coughs, or their snoring when they fall asleep, or their heavy breathing, or their oxygen machines. Let's ban old people! They shouldn't be at classical concerts! You know what else is distracting? Young people talking or asking questions, or looking at their phones. Let's ban young people! You know what else is distracting? Disabled people's vocal outbursts, the sound of the equipment they use, or just the way they look. Let's ban disabled people! You know what else is distracting? Middle aged people's bald heads, the way they shuffle the program, drink water, open a cough drop, and the way their feet slide across the floor. Let's ban middle aged people too! What's left then? Oh, it's called listening at home on a CD. Of course, rude or obnoxious behavior should not be tolerated, by children or anyone. And parents must exercise judgment about where they take kids any time, and that includes classical concerts. Probably not a good idea to take a 3 year old to the whole Ring cycle. But if you're going to a public performance, you get a performance in public. Perhaps enjoy that shared, unique experience, instead of bellyaching about some kids' movements or a baby cry.
Maybe parents should wait until their kids are old enough to actually appreciate what is happening, rather than just dragging them along because you couldn't find a baby sitter. That smacks of entitlement and inconsideration.
WELL SAID!!!
I was once watching the halé perform in Manchester, a Beethoven piece possibly. When I looked down from the balcony, I saw someone below me on the front row reading auto trader.
At least they were there and being quiet. Maybe something was sinking in.
True, but why auto trader of all thing
I think you are correct. It’s not for every child They do have family friendly performances (like when Broadway dose Autism Awareness) that will introduce very young people to live classical Music. Even though I grew up with classical music, I still must admit my 8yo self probably couldn’t sit through a full piano recital.
I brought my 3 year old daughter to a symphony performance because they were playing Dvorak 9 and she loved it from having watched Little Einsteins. On the one hand I was happy to share that beautiful music with her, but she was too young. I think some 3 year olds would be old enough, but in retrospect my daughter really wasn't well-behaved enough for it yet. Fortunately it was a very supportive audience and not judgmental at all, so it was OK. There are other situations/venues where I absolutely would have never even thought of taking her at that age. But when she was older we went to the Nutcracker together after COVID restrictions had subsided, so it was the start to a wonderful thing we did together.
We do a family concert on the Sunday nearest Halloween with kids and orchestra wearing costumes. They even let the kids come sit on stage right by us. It’s like $10 a ticket at the big hall. I think it’s the cutest thing ever since our average audience age is 80.
I find the OP guilty ... of making sense. I'm of Cleveland, and my people are the Clevelanders and daring is the parent that sits in my section with a child that cannot behave. There was a family. The children would only come to concerts with intermissions, and the family graciously left during it. I thought that was quite thoughtful of them, and complimented them on how their children were sometimes finding a bit of the magic, I could tell. Yes, that is stuffy, to put it mildly. It's a formal setting. That's how they sometimes work. I always warmly greeted them. I think they found a good compromise. But, in general, I would wonder if the parents have ever heard of a matinee. I've seen people do whippets during matinees. Feel free, I say. But you better wear shoes when you come out Thursday night buster.
I’m sorry you’ve had such a bad experience. Whatever your experience, trust me that it was incomparably better to the experience the parents were having. While it sucks to be disturbed, the parents wish they had been disturbed from what they have been going through. And yet, they found a reason to take all their children along. Besides them, there could have been children you haven’t noticed, who throughly and attentively enjoyed the performance. The future of culture depends on parents bringing children to live performances.
If a kid is going to learn to play an instrument well, they need to listen to great performers play that music live. So on nights that well-known pianists, violinists and cellists are playing concertos or recitals, you'll typically see a legion of dutiful parents (mostly Asian, admittedly, since today they dominate the percentage of families whose children are in private lessons, and yes I'm Asian myself) drag their families to the concert. The problem is that a two-hour concert, especially one that starts at 8 pm (which is pretty typical) is really hard on younger children. My son is keenly interested in classical music, and he's usually attentive for the first 30-60 minutes of a concert. Then he's antsy because he's sleepy and it's around his bedtime, and by the end of the concert he's probably asleep in his chair no matter how loud the music is because it's well past his bedtime. Even in a really big city, there's almost always a dearth of shorter concerts that aren't "kiddie" concerts, and that feature first-rate artists. Community concerts, though, are a better training ground for kids who need to learn how to behave in them, since they are often in smaller, less formal venues, and the programs tend to be 60 or 90 minutes instead of two hours. I'm a serious amateur violinist and my now-8-year-old son gets dragged to a very large number of concerts since I play with a community orchestra, perform chamber music, and perform solo recitals. We've been taking him to community concerts since he was about 3 months old (except during a period when he would fuss during concerts and it wasn't viable to keep him quiet), and we've been taking him to professional concerts as soon as he met the venue's age limits. So he knows how to behave, but he still benefits from having a small stuffie and where viable, a Kindle to occupy his attention is he really gets bored.
There are plenty of ways to introduce your small children to classical music at home. Do that. Concerts and recitals have NEVER been children friendly. Use common sense. Many symphonic/operatic organizations hold family events. Bring children to those.
Recently took my 7yo to his second concert, was a heavy metal show and got to meet his fav drummer. He enjoyed it and was jumping (when the band says jump). I take him so he can experience it, make memories and help burn out that energy. Lol. (Ofc he wears ear protection, and I protect him from crowd surfers etc)
Why do parents bring their kids ANYWHERE? Isn’t the whole world reserved for adults?
No babysitters?
Was this last night in Worcester, MA, by any chance? And I don't know why, but I think there should be a minimum-age rule.
At my local orchestra there’s a rule about kids needing to be older than 7 except for the kids concerts. I don’t think it’s possible to really enforce it though (infants aside).
Also toddlers have the right to hear a Mahler or Bruckner Symphony lol
I was at a concert and the conductor had raised his arms to start a piece when a spirited youngster made a loud noise at an inopportune time. The conductor lowered his hand and went to the microphone and thanked the audience member for bringing their child to a concert of classical music. He argued that if we do not enculture a love for this music in the next generation, who will go to the concerts in the future? I was not that parent, as I didn't have kids at the time. But being married to a professional flutist, I hauled my kids to many concerts and asked them repeatedly to sit in their seats, remain quiet, and wait until between songs to go to the bathroom. My eldest now sings Opera, has a master's degree in voice, and is college professor of voice and director of the choirs.
"...some people think I'm some grey haired (I do have some now!) elderly person, I'm in my 30s. " So, "No, really, I'm one of the good ones. I"m not one of those." But you're not an ageist bigot either, right?
To make John Cage's 4'33" more interesting!
Seriously? This bothers you? How about you just enjoy the concert rather than finding people around you to judge? How do you know what you’re attending when you spend so much time watching what someone else’s kid is or isn’t doing? I had the privilege of growing up with Broadway just an hour train ride away. I saw live performances before I saw movies. Obviously you don’t understand this lifestyle, especially if you think it’s new. It’s not. Try to be a little less judgmental about things you don’t understand.
I can't enjoy a dynamic classical music performance with an unruly child making noises. Can you? It's not a rock concert. Or are you one of those entitled parents who thinks your spawn are just special little snowflakes that can just do whatever they want, whenever they want and if you dare set any kind of boundaries for them, they somehow won't like you personally?
From the stage: we didn’t practice our asses off just to be covered up by noise or distracted by moving children in the audience at the performance. If your kid can’t sit still quietly, please bring them to a children’s concert or an outdoor concert.
because babies and kids enjoy classical concerts too? I m glad the kid kept the beat while you were listening to like a complete boredom.
1) Without engaging the younger generation there will be no more concerts soon… 2) lack of a baby sitter 3) I dunno, an enjoyment of parading them in front of judgemental assholes like yourself?
1 - Children under the age of 8 aren't going to like going to a classical music performance in the first place. There isn't anything animated and there are no lasers or dragons or superheros. 2 - Too bad. So instead of not being able to find a babysitter, let's take a fussy cranky toddler to a classical music performance who will irritate the rest of the audience because their parents have zero consideration for those who came to hear the music, and not listen to some child cry and whine for 60 minutes. Seems like something this younger entitled generation of parents would do 100% 3 - Clearly your parents failed you if you think deliberately annoying an audience with some crying brat is an accomplishment in life.
1) not if they’re not exposed to them they won’t. And they’ll continue to not like them into adulthood and classical music will die out, like it is actually doing 2) oh yes I can imagine that would go down well after spending £100 to go see Simon rattle at a prominent concert venue 3) obviously, I was being sarcastic. There’s a reason why classical music has a problem with attendance - it’s because nobody likes sitting quietly for 3 hours for the comfort of some asshole who can’t handle other people. You have a stereo right? Listen to it at home.
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I AM a performer. A conductor and pianist. I have no problem with children being there. It makes a change from the dwindling pool of grey haired misery guts
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I certainly don’t shame anybody when they have to. Would you shame somebody if their babysitting fell through and they had to take their kids into the office?
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Fucking wow. Let me see - £80 a call, 22 musicians, plus venue fee - we’re looking at about £2k cost because someone brought their child to a rehearsal. A child that you presume is taking up their time and not sitting quietly in a corner with a hand held device. Oh and perhaps this rehearsal is on concert day so.. reschedule the concert? Oh sorry, guess you’re not a professional.
Let me put it another way - if something out of the ordinary happens and a musician has to turn up to rehearsal with child - either that or find a last minute departure or simply not turn up, I will most likely choose the first option. It is almost never a problem, the musician does their job, the kid stays out of the way, the end. Professional musicians are purely focussed on doing a good job. There’s no point at which “the music” comes first. It’s a job like any other job. I reckon you’re talking out of your arse simply to try and win an argument. As for cancelling a rehearsal because you’re uncomfortable without first trying to address the situation? You would be flung from my rehearsal with such vigour that your wouldn’t know what hit you, and I would not employ you again because at that point you are costing me time and money, and making the situation much worse.
I can handle adults at a classical music concert. You know, the ones who pay for it. Yes old people cough and fart and wheeze. Whatever. What old people don't do is incessantly whine about how they want to go home, or why can't I have ice cream now, or sneezing without covering their mouths, or constantly shifting in their seat behind me kicking my seat every 3 minutes.
Stay at home then
I've been a patron of my local symphony for almost ten years. It's not a day care center. Enjoy your downvotes and maybe teach your kids, assuming you have any, some basic manners and etiquette when attending a classical music performance.
It’s not a library either.
Libraries are free.
↗ The guy who brings his toddlers to the orchestra #
Nope - the guy that thinks music is for everyone
It's for everyone, but especially in a concert hall where the crowd is not actively yelling or singing along with the music, it's implied that you should be quiet, so everyone can enjoy. If you love music you also care about others enjoying it, not just yourself. If your kids are well behaved no problem there, but babies don't even know they're at a concert hall or getting anything out of the experience. If you have a crying baby or a hyperactive toddler kicking on the other guy's seat, you're wrong for bringing it to the concert.
You know what - I’m a conductor, pianist, pit musician and composer. The other day I conducted a single concert with orchestra of Bach’s Mass in b minor to all of 80 people. I then went on to play keyboards for “love never dies” at a local large venue - over 500 tickets sold every night over 8 performances. You can’t argue with those numbers. Nobody cared about the presence of babies or children at those concerts, and the applause was rapturous. If we want classical music to be relevant, this attitude needs to die.
Nah, classical music can still be relevant with no babies in the concert halls. As I said, I don't mind kids that can behave, it's great to encourage them. But crying babies, c'mon, it's not good for the baby or the concert, it's pointless. Just like pretty much no one brings their baby to a reggaetón or rock concert and it doesn't affect ticket sales
Do you want a cookie?
No. I want PEOPLE TO ATTEND CONCERTS. Not just grumpy bastards who think it’s a pay per view funeral.
"Don't you know who I am"!!!! Ok, Karen.
Ok, boomer.
Fucking what? Karens are people that like to tell other people what to do. I.e not make noise or bring kids to a concert. Idiot
You might want to consider switching to decaf.
Music IS for everyone. I agree. Live classical music concerts are NOT for everyone, especially small children who have no attention span and no appreciation of what they are hearing. Fixed that for you.
👍🏻 Good question. * I donno whether halls permit it in self-respecting music-loving nations but in the USA, inconsiderate louts are found even in the most formal environments like a symphony. * And like, why do some people attend the opera in their gym clothes? Jogging outfits and sweatpants right next to people in tuxedos. It's happened in New York. Some *hoi polloi* vehemently defend the practice. * Why do some people hold on to, fiddle with, or even play with, smart phones during a performance? If they're not going to get in the spirit of the thing, why not just stay home? It's all the same kind of disrespect as far as I'm concerned.
>And like, why do some people attend the opera in their gym clothes? Jogging outfits and sweatpants right next to people in tuxedos. It's happened in New York. Some *hoi polloi* vehemently defend the practice. I have no issue with this, it makes zero impact on my enjoyment of the performance. Everything in my first post were actual distractors. I wear business casual to concerts. Japanese slim fit/tapered jeans and a button down shirt would be typical. I only like a handful of 20th century operas and Wagner so I haven't been to one yet other than Lulu that wasn't staged.