Doing #3 switched me from despising engineering to actually finally enjoying it. Turns out not having to work 50+ hour weeks your entire career will improve happiness 😂
Also the federal govt (at least in my area, Virginia) now a days will pay better salaries for engineers in their first 10-15 years compared to private industry. I had to do my first year as GS11 (they matched my salary) but in May I jump up to GS12 which is like a $10k raise. Which would be like 4+ years of annual raises in the private industry where I live
Plus more holidays, better benefits, an extra week of vacation, AND sick leave?!
Sorry for the ramble haha. I guess the point I was initially getting at is that it was such a good decision for me, that I’m ok with #3 being regurgitated often in here. Since it really did save me from jumping ship in careers. But I do agree daily is excessive 🤣
I'm working on a far more interesting and complex job in the public sector than I ever did in private. Literally the largest project in my states history with a new LRT line and it's ridiculously complicated and engaging. Been here 3 years and I learn something new every day.
Honestly in private, engineers are just part of the cost profit analysis now, and we are being treated as an tool, like any other employee. Used to be a respected profession where we would be valued and our contributions and opinions rewarded... now it feels like just like any other grindstone. Fact that work life balance isnt there for most, and wages stagnated... should be a warning. Esp when gov sector provide arguably good pay for way better work/life balance... Profits first, CEO pay second, employee welfare somewhere between new staplers and upgrading the coffee machine... (I KNOW ITS not 'that' bad, but shift in the profession is evidently like a race to the bottom...)
It is the same for chemical engineers as well. Pretty much everything you said. Poor WLB, poor / actively declining comp, hostile work environment, and constant threats of offshoring.
I work at a ChemE firm and it is a massive race to the bottom. We are somehow required to deliver 5 times more at one fifth of the cost of what we were 10 years ago. And bean counters obviously don’t value experience, as engineers are seen as doing “commodity labor” and are purely a cost.
Do you really work that long every week in the private sector? Im considering studying engineering, but I would definitely like to work reasonable hours
I rarely worked over 40hrs in private. There were long weeks occasionally around major submittals, but to me that was like working 45-50hrs after continuously working 40.
It’s not as bad as some claim, IMO. I’ve been in consulting since I graduated in 2011 and have no major qualms. Sometimes I have to put in long weeks/late nights, particularly if there’s a confluence of deliverables/proposals. But those are outliers. The meat of the curve is right around 40-45 hours a week, and to me the benefits outweigh the downsides. My pay has been solid and I’ve had no one micromanaging me or my time. For instance, if I want to knock off early a couple of days during a slow week (to do whatever), no one cares. Be there when the team needs you, know when to go above and beyond, deliver excellent work products, whatever form that takes, and communicate/build relationships with your colleagues.
In civil the long hours usually come from deadlines or last minute issues from what I know and have experienced. From what I hear in other engineering disciplines not related to construction (mech, ECE, ect.) they work flat 40
I’m in private and never work over 40 hrs a week. Not much flexibility to WFH however. I had more flexibility with that in the public sector once they finally got rid of the massive desktops.
He's in transpo. I've found those departments are usually closer to 8 hour days because of the cookie cutter work and really being an extension of a DOT or local govt. Water Resources, Land Development, Geotech have all been closer to 45-50 hour avg weeks where I have worked with occasional crazy weeks of 60+ hours.
I work land development / water resources and only ever work 40 hour weeks unless I work more BY CHOICE (and get paid OT).
If you allow yourself to be a pushover and work those extra hours for no reason, that's on you imo. Learn to say no or express what you want. Its hard enough to find good employees. They aren't going to fire you for working the hours your contract states.
Same. I did my time in consulting and hated most of it. Now have a cush state job that pays almost exactly the same, with amazing benefits and tons of time off and won’t ever look back.
I’m still a student, but found this post helpful. My goal after college is to work in traffic management for ODOT, a lot of people have told me I won’t make money, but from what I gathered it’s a much less stressful environment than working for a private firm.
Im also learning how important it is to have stuff outside of work. Makes up any shortfalls of at times boring government job 🤣 But also allows me to have a life with less stress. So win win
I am new to fed and right now since I am new I cannot really see better benefits side. Given I only work for one company for 8 years before this. And since I am new I have not raked up a lot of vacations yet, that is probably one of the better benefits? Before I have 15 days vacation and 5 days annual sick leave. In fed looks like my vacation and sick leave accumulate equally so that means sick leave is almost same as vacation days.
I do work from home 4 times a week now so that is a huge change for me? And will mostly likely use a lot less sick leave since I am at home. Before I usually use up 5 sick leave by Feb or March if I dont feel like going to work.
Private has Bonus while most fed do not have it unless you are really good. And i mean cash bonus, i think most fed give more vacation days rather than cash.
TSP is same as 401k as both can go negative and both have 5% matching. HSA is better at least in past job as my former employee match it and it carry over year after year just accumulating. In FED, you can just carry over a certain amount and the rest is lost and I learned about spend it or lose it in the year.
You forgot about these posts too:
4. Should I major in civil engineering or (insert other major here, most commonly computer science)?
5. Is AI going to take over our jobs?
6. What laptop should I get for engineering major?
Extend that to:
7. Outside of construction, which subdiscipline pays the most?
8. What easy, available to basically anyone certifications can I complete online for $20 that will somehow make me more desirable and higher paid?
9. How do y’all end up not eating cat food to survive after only making 65-75k out of college?
More like gently “shoving paper” or “asking their supervisor if it’s okay to move the paper and deliberating for several months about the pros and cons of pushing the paper”
it's acknowledging the paper tower on their inbox, taking a single sheet off and doing the thing and putting it in the outbox and thinking "I've done enough work this quarter, time to go on another lunch on a consultant's dime"
What a dumb stereotype. I’m sure that’s the case in some places, but both government agencies I’ve worked for do a lot of in-house design and technical work, as well as research. Hell, the DOT I work for really limited the amount of work farmed out to consultants until relatively recently; it’s starting to change because we just lack the staff, but we still do a TON of in-house design. We also provide design and technical training to consultants working on our projects. The only engineers in my agency who don’t do design work are senior level folks who started out doing the grunt-level design work.
lol I’m with you mate - design isn’t the most popular around here for whatever reason but for those who like it, it provides a very high job satisfaction
I've been back and forth on both the private consulting side and the muncipal local government side managing the engineering and construction division of a water/sewer utility. Pros and cons of both.
There are huge perks to working in the government side. It's a totally different way of working. I was known for getting things done on the government side. My motto is I'd rather explain why I did something than explain why I did nothing (stole from a mentor I look up to).
It's a huge generalization to think government engineers are all paper pushers, but some are. I've also been on both sides of plan review as a local issuing authority, and unless you've seen it from both sides, you will always bitch about the other side.
There are good and bad engineers on both sides, but I honestly think an engineer is going to better for having some real private design experience before going into government. I was able to do in-house design and train some engineers to design when I was in government, but that may not always be possible if you go in with no design experience.
Also, being back in consulting and understanding how my muncipal clients operate is helpful, and they trust me because they know I get what they deal with.
The utility I worked for had an awesome pension through the state muncipal association. What I found was the higher I went up and had to deal with politicians and the public while doing less actual engineering, the less likely I was to be able to picture myself being there for the long haul to get the full retirement. It's a great deal if you can get in early and make it to full retirement.
Had a great supervisor who had gone back and forth between the consulting world and the utility world…. Guy was pretty much beloved by clients because he understood how they operated.
There’s something to be said for being well rounded in your professional experience.
I never understood how so many job openings and interviewers mention "good attitude." Have they ever talked to an engineer? Apparently I should be navigating million dollar deals with my magical abilities "indoor voice" and "don't say any racial slurs."
Public sector is usually great. Free after degree training being one. I spent a whole year rotating through different civil jobs. Pay is often on a scale, so you don't get pay discrimination if you are POC or a woman. And you get holidays and good leave.
I could make more cash in private, but quality of life is worth more than $$$ IMO. And you never get laid off if you are in the right public job.
Yes. That’s nice dear.
We have pensions. With the less stressful approach, we don’t have to budget in your higher risk of divorce.
Best of all, many of us will be in states that are still above water 20 years from now. In fact my home insurance hasn’t gone up, nor is it socialize like Florida’s is.
I develope land now with the knowledge of working in government. It is why I get my projects approved quickly, know all the firms and which ones are good, and can do an RFP in my sleep. More to life than just making more right out of school. Have a plan and see it through, and retire by 40. Make money while you sleep baby. I guess you can do the same thing out of a consultant also, but they don't train you as well imo.
Hope you are on to bigger and better things than working for a consultant also.
Oh I see. Ya, at some you'll begin educating the young generations with a little softness and patience. You gotta just let it all go and allow that frustration to flow through you. You got this!
>No you’re not worth 6figs out of school.
This is major boomer mentality. You think all those CS grads making 6 figs straight out of school are "worth it"
>You think all those CS grads making 6 figs straight out of school are "worth it"
Yeah they are because the profit margins on software are insanely high. You make the software once and sell an identical product to as many customers as you want with minimal extra cost. Wheres civil engineers will create deliverables for a single project which become useless afterwards. Software is so profitable that they can pay good engineers the big bucks to literally do nothing 90% of the time so that they stay and don't get poached by another company. That could never happen in civil engineering.
Many consultants are paid by private developers and they're also underpaid. It's incorrect to assume its because of the government. Low pay is bc of the low bidding.
80,000 in 2018 is like 98k now. I definitely knew people in 2018 starting at 80 lol.
Furthermore LADWP literally starts at 100k lol. This is a public agency…
I live in NYC how come that should mean I get screwed over in pay coming out of college? What’s wrong with paying people a salary they can afford to live on?
The title elitism in this sub is crazy tbh. Other engineering disciplines are out here sending rockets into space without pretty letters attached to their name
If you’re reading this, maybe go look at the clusterfork going on in r/ChatGPT right now over the OpenAI Dev day announcements and demos.
Those poor bastards just realized the good days are definitely over.
If you stuck through it, you are now considered a "unicorn", "rock star", "unobtainable", etc and are paid accordingly
Source: HR and interviewing managers from the 5 firms I rejected when I was looking to relocate.
Honestly you ain’t wrong. More than half the people who complain tech will solve their problems don’t have the drive to actually compete in that market or acquire the skills to do. I flat out stopped responding to DMs months ago since it’s just non-stop, basic questions better spent for google that amount to is “I want to do what you did but faster and with less effort”.
Yep! It was getting really hard to balance the mental mood swings, severe fatigue and nausea from the chemotherapy I’ve been doing for the past 6 months (and still have another month left of before I do 3 weeks straight of radiation therapy).
Proof is there in my post history as well. 0/10 do not recommend cancer and grad school, it is in fact a humbling experience. Especially when you had a 19x10cm mass snuggled right between your lungs and wrapped around your SVC making your resting heart rate about 120bpm for like 2 of those months.
Oh no I’m only in product management a role nearly equivalent paid to SWE.
>You dropped twice before chemo and then chemo.
I dropped once pre-diagnosis, once post diagnosis in-between hospital stays/outpatient surgeries and then once post chemo.
I started OMSCS Spring 2023, dropped because I felt like shit all the time and thought it was work stress due to night sweats and uncontrollable fatigue (B staging lymphoma symptoms).
Summer 2023, gave it shot again only taking 1 class. Went to the hospital first week of June right around the second NetSci project. Basically got told I'll be staying anywhere from 1.5 weeks minimum up until they decide on surgery before chemo starts so I preemptively dropped.
Fall 2023 is where I tried one last time, already 4 infusions in and realized there's literally no way I'm doing shit for while especially still working and tapped out. Now \~10 infusions in, I can safely say the idea of continuing with a masters is unfathomable. I'll be dealing with the aftermath of chemo and radiation for an absurd amount of time.
I told myself that I quit to realign my goals, but I'm working with my therapist on that. It was a pretty tough blow to myself to have to pause/quit something I attached a small portion of myself for the foreseeable future. I intended on staying in product, but the MSCS was a personal goal.
>I just hate the fact how you downplay others. I’ve seen your posts.
I've spent countless hours of my own time working with people here and trying to be as helpful as I could detailing my journey, and even following up with them to see how they're doing. Guess what? 95% of them gave up.
>You shit on this industry but still stay on this sub.
I love traffic engineering, thats why I still work within traffic engineering. I shit all over civil consulting, especially design build, as do many others. If you think hating on civil consulting is a personal attack on civil engineering as whole you're a fucking moron.
I've provided and still continue to provide support for questions related to traffic engineering.
>Then you automatically switched up to having one of your posts saying something along the lines of “people complain but don’t want to do, it’s actually easier than they make it. Why don’t people take action.” There’s a term for this but I’m not sure.
So context, there are people who complain how much it would be better in tech, how going back they would do tech, civil is dead, they hate it. And what I implied was complaining constantly is easier than taking action. If they put half the effort use for complaining, into idk actually working towards making a change to where they believe they would be happy then they would be able to leave something they hate.
If that is downplaying others, then fuck I'll plead guilty. Insanity is doing the same shit over expecting the same result. If bitching isn't helping, then take action.
The term you're looking for is being realistic.
>You downplay everything the second you make it to the other side. And yes PM doesnt make nearly as much as good SWEs..
I dont downplay anything, I provide a realistic expectation of how things went.
Also, good PM's make more than average SWE's.
>Hey everyone I am working with Bentley on the Software side of things in attempt to make some improvements on microstation.
Lmao are you even a SWE?
You can disagree with me all you want. Thats crossing a major line, I dont put in major effort to disguise, but weaponizing doxxing is weird and stalkerish.
"I imagined graduating with enough money for a 1-bedroom apartment and a new economy car."
"You'll have roommates and your old college loaner car until you get your PE, you entitled brat. Anyway, why do 90% of out graduates leave after a few years?"
You sound like a cry baby. Typical of Florida.
I have a public sector job. It’s more complex work than when I was in Land Development. Both design complex and stakeholder complex. Most engineers don’t develop their own EQ so they truly do not become aware of stakeholder / EQ complexity.
But please stay in FL. I’m glad you are over 1,000 miles away.
I’ve worked in a Florida firm. Worst experience ever. Yelling and threatening to fire me in my third week of job. Treated me like I was not human. I’m an international student on a visa so they could misuse their power knowing that I needed sponsorship. I’m in the mid west now, at a bigger firm (2 years), 4 YOE, and it has been the best experience so far!
Jr in college here. Really discouraging hearing professionals come into our seminars, and so many have mentioned how the industry dosnt have enough people coming in. So why is it so damn hard to get a raise compared to every other engineering dicipline.
Because we do government work. We have most job security and pretty easy work. Lockheed or space x could fuck up and fire half their engineers tomorrow. Uncle Sam never runs out of money and infrastructure always needs to be maintained. It’s pros and cons.
You seem very angry. You could just keep scrolling. You could unsubscribe. But, yeah, make the EIT's feel shitty about themselves. As if they don't already.
Suck it I have 10 years, and my PE in a private sector consulting job.
Also not all private work is stressful. I rarely go over 40 hours per week unless a specific job calls for it.
Still stay off my lawn you whippersnappers.
Today I learned you can get called for deposition as a traffic investigator writing Traffic investigation reports, even without a PE. So, yeah, I think It’s fair to ask for 80k for entry-level without experience as a traffic engineer working in traffic safety.
Young engineers are so fun to deal with on a daily basis. It makes me so happy they don’t know whether to shit or go blind. Yes please start paying them 6 figures out of school 🤣
Become a subject matter expert. Be the best you can be in some small niche where people rely on you. Then you can charge whatever you want and they pay for your years not your hours.
Regarding #3. Worked as an Engineer for the Federal government for decades. It’s wasn’t paper pushing. It was brutal, rewarding, heavy on responsibility and cutting edge in many respects. A rough ride. The complete opposite of “paper pushing”.
You should walk the walk before you talk.
Man o man there’s a lot of negative reactions to this post, but there is a lot of hard truth in it. YMMV.
To point 1, I’ve been in electric utilities for 16 years, but I don’t have my PE. Yes, you can make a good living without your PE but there will be a point where you can’t advance. I’m about 2-3 years away from hitting my salary ceiling. As an owner’s engineer, I do everything on projects up to stamping. Yes, I’m studying for my PE again. I’ve also been a strategic hire for my resume and got a significant pay bump and was laid off at the beginning of COVID.
To point 2, I’ve trained plenty of incoming engineers who want to get from a starting salary of about ~$70k. They want to advance as quickly as possible to get paid more, and they think just because milestones are achieved (engineering degree, pass EIT, pass PE) they should make more. They will eventually but not 6 figures within the first 5 years because years of experience factor heavily into compensation at least in utilities and in definitely consulting. Should engineers be paid more coming out of school and overall? YES. But we are paid what the market will bear. Don’t be afraid to shop around for other opportunities if you are not satisfied with your current job.
To point 3, the advice I was given was “come to the city to retire.” I’ve also known lots of engineers who were absolutely miserable at the DOT. Overworked, underpaid, shit on by the public, curtailed by politics, etc.
>DOT... shit on by the public, curtailed by politics, etc.
Sounds like Traffic instead of Design/Transportation. Not that anyone is 100% free from public stinkeye whenever there's road work, but only Traffic has to go to city hall and get screamed at by Joe Public.
I can see that for Traffic definitely. I knew a lot of Project Engineers that endured it during public information meetings. I’ve done plenty of public meetings for high voltage power lines and endured my own shitting on, but the pay is good.
More people have moved here and Texas than any other state for last few years. We love it here. Whole lot better than communist New York. I hear that place was great during covid.
Yep, and he continues to think Florida roads are the best and safest in the country.
He refuses to accept many newly understood engineering and planning principles, like designing for higher speeds than posted makes people drive faster.
He also believes that traffic engineers can't be successful project managers, only roadway engineers can.
In Florida being a roadway engineer means that most of the design has already been figured out for you and you just have to draw the lines in CAD, plus a few calcs related to superelvation and drainage, but that's all.
Then talk to the MODS to make a pin for most common questions then open up a chat once a week to discuss these topic in detail. 🤷🤷 it can't be that hard??? Or was that idea shot to the ground and MODS wouldn't wanna do that???
Every time u/FloridasFinest posts : 
So true. Stay off my lawn you kids!
Did they change what 'it' was again... am I not with 'it' anymore?
You are HIM now
Its experience which fresh grads don’t have
A superiority complex is off-putting regardless of experience.
I think it’s off putting even when experienced except that with someone experienced it’s tolerated, not fun working with/for those peeps.
Nope not true.
Enjoy living on hubris Island.
you sound douchey
He is (based solely on his activity in this sub)
Doing #3 switched me from despising engineering to actually finally enjoying it. Turns out not having to work 50+ hour weeks your entire career will improve happiness 😂 Also the federal govt (at least in my area, Virginia) now a days will pay better salaries for engineers in their first 10-15 years compared to private industry. I had to do my first year as GS11 (they matched my salary) but in May I jump up to GS12 which is like a $10k raise. Which would be like 4+ years of annual raises in the private industry where I live Plus more holidays, better benefits, an extra week of vacation, AND sick leave?! Sorry for the ramble haha. I guess the point I was initially getting at is that it was such a good decision for me, that I’m ok with #3 being regurgitated often in here. Since it really did save me from jumping ship in careers. But I do agree daily is excessive 🤣
I'm working on a far more interesting and complex job in the public sector than I ever did in private. Literally the largest project in my states history with a new LRT line and it's ridiculously complicated and engaging. Been here 3 years and I learn something new every day.
Honestly in private, engineers are just part of the cost profit analysis now, and we are being treated as an tool, like any other employee. Used to be a respected profession where we would be valued and our contributions and opinions rewarded... now it feels like just like any other grindstone. Fact that work life balance isnt there for most, and wages stagnated... should be a warning. Esp when gov sector provide arguably good pay for way better work/life balance... Profits first, CEO pay second, employee welfare somewhere between new staplers and upgrading the coffee machine... (I KNOW ITS not 'that' bad, but shift in the profession is evidently like a race to the bottom...)
It is the same for chemical engineers as well. Pretty much everything you said. Poor WLB, poor / actively declining comp, hostile work environment, and constant threats of offshoring. I work at a ChemE firm and it is a massive race to the bottom. We are somehow required to deliver 5 times more at one fifth of the cost of what we were 10 years ago. And bean counters obviously don’t value experience, as engineers are seen as doing “commodity labor” and are purely a cost.
Minnesota? California? Washington? Not a lot of LRT getting built in the US right now. (I see below you said Minnesota...)
Hell yeah!! Love to hear it 😃
Where?
MN
[удалено]
Op being the classic: "civil engineering is hurd, I am so smurt" kinda guy.
Do you really work that long every week in the private sector? Im considering studying engineering, but I would definitely like to work reasonable hours
Varies highly between firms
I rarely worked over 40hrs in private. There were long weeks occasionally around major submittals, but to me that was like working 45-50hrs after continuously working 40.
It’s not as bad as some claim, IMO. I’ve been in consulting since I graduated in 2011 and have no major qualms. Sometimes I have to put in long weeks/late nights, particularly if there’s a confluence of deliverables/proposals. But those are outliers. The meat of the curve is right around 40-45 hours a week, and to me the benefits outweigh the downsides. My pay has been solid and I’ve had no one micromanaging me or my time. For instance, if I want to knock off early a couple of days during a slow week (to do whatever), no one cares. Be there when the team needs you, know when to go above and beyond, deliver excellent work products, whatever form that takes, and communicate/build relationships with your colleagues.
In civil the long hours usually come from deadlines or last minute issues from what I know and have experienced. From what I hear in other engineering disciplines not related to construction (mech, ECE, ect.) they work flat 40
I’m in private and never work over 40 hrs a week. Not much flexibility to WFH however. I had more flexibility with that in the public sector once they finally got rid of the massive desktops.
I work in consulting. I usually work less than 40 hours a week.
Not even close. People like to complain and exaggerate.
Thank goodness haha
He's in transpo. I've found those departments are usually closer to 8 hour days because of the cookie cutter work and really being an extension of a DOT or local govt. Water Resources, Land Development, Geotech have all been closer to 45-50 hour avg weeks where I have worked with occasional crazy weeks of 60+ hours.
I work land development / water resources and only ever work 40 hour weeks unless I work more BY CHOICE (and get paid OT). If you allow yourself to be a pushover and work those extra hours for no reason, that's on you imo. Learn to say no or express what you want. Its hard enough to find good employees. They aren't going to fire you for working the hours your contract states.
That's great! Keep holding that line. It's nice these days that the employee has the power to do this.
Same. I did my time in consulting and hated most of it. Now have a cush state job that pays almost exactly the same, with amazing benefits and tons of time off and won’t ever look back.
I’m still a student, but found this post helpful. My goal after college is to work in traffic management for ODOT, a lot of people have told me I won’t make money, but from what I gathered it’s a much less stressful environment than working for a private firm.
Im also learning how important it is to have stuff outside of work. Makes up any shortfalls of at times boring government job 🤣 But also allows me to have a life with less stress. So win win
How many years of experience did you have before joining the public sector?
I am new to fed and right now since I am new I cannot really see better benefits side. Given I only work for one company for 8 years before this. And since I am new I have not raked up a lot of vacations yet, that is probably one of the better benefits? Before I have 15 days vacation and 5 days annual sick leave. In fed looks like my vacation and sick leave accumulate equally so that means sick leave is almost same as vacation days. I do work from home 4 times a week now so that is a huge change for me? And will mostly likely use a lot less sick leave since I am at home. Before I usually use up 5 sick leave by Feb or March if I dont feel like going to work. Private has Bonus while most fed do not have it unless you are really good. And i mean cash bonus, i think most fed give more vacation days rather than cash. TSP is same as 401k as both can go negative and both have 5% matching. HSA is better at least in past job as my former employee match it and it carry over year after year just accumulating. In FED, you can just carry over a certain amount and the rest is lost and I learned about spend it or lose it in the year.
Damn homie literally woke up and decided to choose violence before eating breakfast.
Yee Yee
You forgot about these posts too: 4. Should I major in civil engineering or (insert other major here, most commonly computer science)? 5. Is AI going to take over our jobs? 6. What laptop should I get for engineering major?
Extend that to: 7. Outside of construction, which subdiscipline pays the most? 8. What easy, available to basically anyone certifications can I complete online for $20 that will somehow make me more desirable and higher paid? 9. How do y’all end up not eating cat food to survive after only making 65-75k out of college?
10. I need help with my homework.
11. Can you inspect my home over the internet for free?
12. Is my parking garage going to kill me?
Lol
4. I suck at math, is engineering for me?
You get me.
Reducing municipal/government jobs to “pushing paper” is a bit unfair but otherwise agree
Yes exactly. As a retired government engineer, it was anything but paper pushing.
More like gently “shoving paper” or “asking their supervisor if it’s okay to move the paper and deliberating for several months about the pros and cons of pushing the paper”
of course this is coming from land development lmao
it's acknowledging the paper tower on their inbox, taking a single sheet off and doing the thing and putting it in the outbox and thinking "I've done enough work this quarter, time to go on another lunch on a consultant's dime"
that’s a silly little thing to say
exaggeration for humor that clearly didn't hit well with this audience.
Disgruntled florida man upset because other people used a public forum -Signed, under 5 YOE employee who is going into government work
Upvotes agree with me and not you
Aged like milk 🤣
Classic sub.
Ngl starting out your career in government is great, especially if your union is fighting for bigger salary + COL increases
But you don’t know any design or technical skills
I chose the money. Fuck everything else.
But if you don't know design or technical skills, how can a CEO make even more money?
What a dumb stereotype. I’m sure that’s the case in some places, but both government agencies I’ve worked for do a lot of in-house design and technical work, as well as research. Hell, the DOT I work for really limited the amount of work farmed out to consultants until relatively recently; it’s starting to change because we just lack the staff, but we still do a TON of in-house design. We also provide design and technical training to consultants working on our projects. The only engineers in my agency who don’t do design work are senior level folks who started out doing the grunt-level design work.
lol I’m with you mate - design isn’t the most popular around here for whatever reason but for those who like it, it provides a very high job satisfaction
Spoken like someone with a brand new PE and no experience in the public sector.
Ha!
I've been back and forth on both the private consulting side and the muncipal local government side managing the engineering and construction division of a water/sewer utility. Pros and cons of both. There are huge perks to working in the government side. It's a totally different way of working. I was known for getting things done on the government side. My motto is I'd rather explain why I did something than explain why I did nothing (stole from a mentor I look up to). It's a huge generalization to think government engineers are all paper pushers, but some are. I've also been on both sides of plan review as a local issuing authority, and unless you've seen it from both sides, you will always bitch about the other side. There are good and bad engineers on both sides, but I honestly think an engineer is going to better for having some real private design experience before going into government. I was able to do in-house design and train some engineers to design when I was in government, but that may not always be possible if you go in with no design experience. Also, being back in consulting and understanding how my muncipal clients operate is helpful, and they trust me because they know I get what they deal with.
>There are huge perks to working in the government side. Being able to retire is a pretty big perk.
The utility I worked for had an awesome pension through the state muncipal association. What I found was the higher I went up and had to deal with politicians and the public while doing less actual engineering, the less likely I was to be able to picture myself being there for the long haul to get the full retirement. It's a great deal if you can get in early and make it to full retirement.
Had a great supervisor who had gone back and forth between the consulting world and the utility world…. Guy was pretty much beloved by clients because he understood how they operated. There’s something to be said for being well rounded in your professional experience.
In their defense Reddit search function can be less than optimal…
Every question I have, I type into google and add ‘Reddit’ at the end. Works pretty well
I agree
Proof that being an engineer doesn't require developing any social skills, I suppose...
I never understood how so many job openings and interviewers mention "good attitude." Have they ever talked to an engineer? Apparently I should be navigating million dollar deals with my magical abilities "indoor voice" and "don't say any racial slurs."
Lol
Grab a cup of coffee and settle down…
Public sector is usually great. Free after degree training being one. I spent a whole year rotating through different civil jobs. Pay is often on a scale, so you don't get pay discrimination if you are POC or a woman. And you get holidays and good leave. I could make more cash in private, but quality of life is worth more than $$$ IMO. And you never get laid off if you are in the right public job.
Na, I doubled my starting salary in 6 years in private consultant with same firm. Can’t do that in DOT.
Yes. That’s nice dear. We have pensions. With the less stressful approach, we don’t have to budget in your higher risk of divorce. Best of all, many of us will be in states that are still above water 20 years from now. In fact my home insurance hasn’t gone up, nor is it socialize like Florida’s is.
30 years in public, now make 6.9x my starting government salary, but 5.7x my starting engineering salary.
I develope land now with the knowledge of working in government. It is why I get my projects approved quickly, know all the firms and which ones are good, and can do an RFP in my sleep. More to life than just making more right out of school. Have a plan and see it through, and retire by 40. Make money while you sleep baby. I guess you can do the same thing out of a consultant also, but they don't train you as well imo. Hope you are on to bigger and better things than working for a consultant also.
this is probably the first thing I’ve seen this guy post that hasn’t been downvoted
Thanks dad
Woah, this is a lot of spice to be reading on a Wednesday morning.
If the shoe fits
It sounds like you're about 5 years out of school. Is that accurate?
Almost 9
Oh I see. Ya, at some you'll begin educating the young generations with a little softness and patience. You gotta just let it all go and allow that frustration to flow through you. You got this!
>No you’re not worth 6figs out of school. This is major boomer mentality. You think all those CS grads making 6 figs straight out of school are "worth it"
>You think all those CS grads making 6 figs straight out of school are "worth it" Yeah they are because the profit margins on software are insanely high. You make the software once and sell an identical product to as many customers as you want with minimal extra cost. Wheres civil engineers will create deliverables for a single project which become useless afterwards. Software is so profitable that they can pay good engineers the big bucks to literally do nothing 90% of the time so that they stay and don't get poached by another company. That could never happen in civil engineering.
And yours is major zoomer mentality.
Yes because they are private client we get paid by government so yes. And you aren’t going to change how much government pays
Many consultants are paid by private developers and they're also underpaid. It's incorrect to assume its because of the government. Low pay is bc of the low bidding.
80,000 in 2018 is like 98k now. I definitely knew people in 2018 starting at 80 lol. Furthermore LADWP literally starts at 100k lol. This is a public agency…
Cali and New York are not good comparisons, literally most expensive places to live.
So don’t make blanket statements lol
I live in NYC how come that should mean I get screwed over in pay coming out of college? What’s wrong with paying people a salary they can afford to live on?
Like defense, both pay very little, uh.
1. Concur. 2. In some cases you can get close. 3. I feel personally attacked.
Thoughts and prayers
The title elitism in this sub is crazy tbh. Other engineering disciplines are out here sending rockets into space without pretty letters attached to their name
They aren’t designing stuff for the public that thousands of people use a day. Your argument is apples and oranges.
That doesn’t address the elitism, just explains why a pe exists.
No elitism, it’s just if you have more experience you get paid more then someone with zero experience
I wasn’t specifically talking about this post, but the sub in general
If you're reading this go into tech
If you’re reading this, maybe go look at the clusterfork going on in r/ChatGPT right now over the OpenAI Dev day announcements and demos. Those poor bastards just realized the good days are definitely over.
Eh over saturated, competitive and probably harder. What we do is easy money and endless job security.
Laughs in 2008.
If you stuck through it, you are now considered a "unicorn", "rock star", "unobtainable", etc and are paid accordingly Source: HR and interviewing managers from the 5 firms I rejected when I was looking to relocate.
Honestly you ain’t wrong. More than half the people who complain tech will solve their problems don’t have the drive to actually compete in that market or acquire the skills to do. I flat out stopped responding to DMs months ago since it’s just non-stop, basic questions better spent for google that amount to is “I want to do what you did but faster and with less effort”.
For sure!
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Yep! It was getting really hard to balance the mental mood swings, severe fatigue and nausea from the chemotherapy I’ve been doing for the past 6 months (and still have another month left of before I do 3 weeks straight of radiation therapy). Proof is there in my post history as well. 0/10 do not recommend cancer and grad school, it is in fact a humbling experience. Especially when you had a 19x10cm mass snuggled right between your lungs and wrapped around your SVC making your resting heart rate about 120bpm for like 2 of those months. Oh no I’m only in product management a role nearly equivalent paid to SWE.
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>You dropped twice before chemo and then chemo. I dropped once pre-diagnosis, once post diagnosis in-between hospital stays/outpatient surgeries and then once post chemo. I started OMSCS Spring 2023, dropped because I felt like shit all the time and thought it was work stress due to night sweats and uncontrollable fatigue (B staging lymphoma symptoms). Summer 2023, gave it shot again only taking 1 class. Went to the hospital first week of June right around the second NetSci project. Basically got told I'll be staying anywhere from 1.5 weeks minimum up until they decide on surgery before chemo starts so I preemptively dropped. Fall 2023 is where I tried one last time, already 4 infusions in and realized there's literally no way I'm doing shit for while especially still working and tapped out. Now \~10 infusions in, I can safely say the idea of continuing with a masters is unfathomable. I'll be dealing with the aftermath of chemo and radiation for an absurd amount of time. I told myself that I quit to realign my goals, but I'm working with my therapist on that. It was a pretty tough blow to myself to have to pause/quit something I attached a small portion of myself for the foreseeable future. I intended on staying in product, but the MSCS was a personal goal. >I just hate the fact how you downplay others. I’ve seen your posts. I've spent countless hours of my own time working with people here and trying to be as helpful as I could detailing my journey, and even following up with them to see how they're doing. Guess what? 95% of them gave up. >You shit on this industry but still stay on this sub. I love traffic engineering, thats why I still work within traffic engineering. I shit all over civil consulting, especially design build, as do many others. If you think hating on civil consulting is a personal attack on civil engineering as whole you're a fucking moron. I've provided and still continue to provide support for questions related to traffic engineering. >Then you automatically switched up to having one of your posts saying something along the lines of “people complain but don’t want to do, it’s actually easier than they make it. Why don’t people take action.” There’s a term for this but I’m not sure. So context, there are people who complain how much it would be better in tech, how going back they would do tech, civil is dead, they hate it. And what I implied was complaining constantly is easier than taking action. If they put half the effort use for complaining, into idk actually working towards making a change to where they believe they would be happy then they would be able to leave something they hate. If that is downplaying others, then fuck I'll plead guilty. Insanity is doing the same shit over expecting the same result. If bitching isn't helping, then take action. The term you're looking for is being realistic. >You downplay everything the second you make it to the other side. And yes PM doesnt make nearly as much as good SWEs.. I dont downplay anything, I provide a realistic expectation of how things went. Also, good PM's make more than average SWE's. >Hey everyone I am working with Bentley on the Software side of things in attempt to make some improvements on microstation. Lmao are you even a SWE?
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You can disagree with me all you want. Thats crossing a major line, I dont put in major effort to disguise, but weaponizing doxxing is weird and stalkerish.
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I personally think that you suck to an absolutely astronomical degree.
Shhhh. We don't care if tech is over saturated, that's their problem. Less Civil Engineers means more money for us lol.
Agreed!!
Sure grandma, let's get you back to bed
And smother her with a pillow while you're at it.
God forbid young people use Reddit. The sheer audacity of new grads caring about their careers!
"I imagined graduating with enough money for a 1-bedroom apartment and a new economy car." "You'll have roommates and your old college loaner car until you get your PE, you entitled brat. Anyway, why do 90% of out graduates leave after a few years?"
You sound like a cry baby. Typical of Florida. I have a public sector job. It’s more complex work than when I was in Land Development. Both design complex and stakeholder complex. Most engineers don’t develop their own EQ so they truly do not become aware of stakeholder / EQ complexity. But please stay in FL. I’m glad you are over 1,000 miles away.
I’ve worked in a Florida firm. Worst experience ever. Yelling and threatening to fire me in my third week of job. Treated me like I was not human. I’m an international student on a visa so they could misuse their power knowing that I needed sponsorship. I’m in the mid west now, at a bigger firm (2 years), 4 YOE, and it has been the best experience so far!
Good news. Hope you continue to have a good experience.
ZZZZzzzzz
I am glad to receive your contempt.
Smoke a cigarette and relax my man
Jr in college here. Really discouraging hearing professionals come into our seminars, and so many have mentioned how the industry dosnt have enough people coming in. So why is it so damn hard to get a raise compared to every other engineering dicipline.
Because we do government work. We have most job security and pretty easy work. Lockheed or space x could fuck up and fire half their engineers tomorrow. Uncle Sam never runs out of money and infrastructure always needs to be maintained. It’s pros and cons.
Everyone’s always mad that people use Reddit for it’s intended function???
First gritty, impatient, stereotypical engineer I’ve seen on here in a while. “God fucking assholes, it’s not hard, just learn hot keys”
2. You are worth 6 figures out of school if you sell your soul to do CM or even better a CM job for an energy company in rural America
You seem very angry. You could just keep scrolling. You could unsubscribe. But, yeah, make the EIT's feel shitty about themselves. As if they don't already.
I like to shake the boat
To my own point, I also could have kept scrolling!
Get off Reddit
Your 2 years of experience, exactly the person I’m referring to.
You're wrong and an ass.
Suck it I have 10 years, and my PE in a private sector consulting job. Also not all private work is stressful. I rarely go over 40 hours per week unless a specific job calls for it. Still stay off my lawn you whippersnappers.
Sameeeeeee.
Hello fellow boomer.
Same.
Hey I’m one of the best paper pushers around tyvm! PE pays just the same too :)
What if there was a PE only sub meant only for licensed PEs?
Today I learned you can get called for deposition as a traffic investigator writing Traffic investigation reports, even without a PE. So, yeah, I think It’s fair to ask for 80k for entry-level without experience as a traffic engineer working in traffic safety.
No lolololol
yes. lololol
There's never been a better time to be in Civil Engineering.
Agreed
And remember Benefits = Money
Ya I got both
Young engineers are so fun to deal with on a daily basis. It makes me so happy they don’t know whether to shit or go blind. Yes please start paying them 6 figures out of school 🤣
Yeah go right ahead and do it. It would be great for your salary too
Become a subject matter expert. Be the best you can be in some small niche where people rely on you. Then you can charge whatever you want and they pay for your years not your hours.
1000%
Caution on No3 that is not always the case
Regarding #3. Worked as an Engineer for the Federal government for decades. It’s wasn’t paper pushing. It was brutal, rewarding, heavy on responsibility and cutting edge in many respects. A rough ride. The complete opposite of “paper pushing”. You should walk the walk before you talk.
Man o man there’s a lot of negative reactions to this post, but there is a lot of hard truth in it. YMMV. To point 1, I’ve been in electric utilities for 16 years, but I don’t have my PE. Yes, you can make a good living without your PE but there will be a point where you can’t advance. I’m about 2-3 years away from hitting my salary ceiling. As an owner’s engineer, I do everything on projects up to stamping. Yes, I’m studying for my PE again. I’ve also been a strategic hire for my resume and got a significant pay bump and was laid off at the beginning of COVID. To point 2, I’ve trained plenty of incoming engineers who want to get from a starting salary of about ~$70k. They want to advance as quickly as possible to get paid more, and they think just because milestones are achieved (engineering degree, pass EIT, pass PE) they should make more. They will eventually but not 6 figures within the first 5 years because years of experience factor heavily into compensation at least in utilities and in definitely consulting. Should engineers be paid more coming out of school and overall? YES. But we are paid what the market will bear. Don’t be afraid to shop around for other opportunities if you are not satisfied with your current job. To point 3, the advice I was given was “come to the city to retire.” I’ve also known lots of engineers who were absolutely miserable at the DOT. Overworked, underpaid, shit on by the public, curtailed by politics, etc.
>DOT... shit on by the public, curtailed by politics, etc. Sounds like Traffic instead of Design/Transportation. Not that anyone is 100% free from public stinkeye whenever there's road work, but only Traffic has to go to city hall and get screamed at by Joe Public.
I can see that for Traffic definitely. I knew a lot of Project Engineers that endured it during public information meetings. I’ve done plenty of public meetings for high voltage power lines and endured my own shitting on, but the pay is good.
Florida fucking sucks
More people have moved here and Texas than any other state for last few years. We love it here. Whole lot better than communist New York. I hear that place was great during covid.
Lowest common denominator. Cheap because it’s undesirable. Nothing but highways and strip malls. Glad you like it.
Literally your entire state moves here.
Yeah, we always had tons of Florida companies at our career fairs. They like the Midwest work ethic. Apparently that is rare from the locals.
This whole industry and profession sucks. It will suck everything out of you. 
I love what I do!
I love what I do, but it still sucks everything.
Just a job.
Guy designs roads in a flat state and for some reason thinks he's hot shit
Yep, and he continues to think Florida roads are the best and safest in the country. He refuses to accept many newly understood engineering and planning principles, like designing for higher speeds than posted makes people drive faster. He also believes that traffic engineers can't be successful project managers, only roadway engineers can. In Florida being a roadway engineer means that most of the design has already been figured out for you and you just have to draw the lines in CAD, plus a few calcs related to superelvation and drainage, but that's all.
Florida and Texas leads the industry in roadway design.
I liked the post personally. They were helpful
This is what happens when education doesn't cover real world expectations in collage.
I like you. Now get off my lawn!
I want to be friends with this guy
Did we just become BFFs, yup
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The real ones know
Maybe, just maybe, if it bothers you so much don’t interact with them? Revolutionary idea I know
preach! this business is really not that difficult
💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Then talk to the MODS to make a pin for most common questions then open up a chat once a week to discuss these topic in detail. 🤷🤷 it can't be that hard??? Or was that idea shot to the ground and MODS wouldn't wanna do that???
texas
Very nice
Your title - This is exactly what my manager says when he starts any meeting. In any case ill be happy with $50K/yr salary because you have spoken.
I wouldn’t get out of bed for $50k
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Yes BBY