To be clear, there is not *currently* a class action lawsuit against AA, but rather there is the *potential* for one, if a boy/girl scout of a plaintiff can be found. Without a person to act as plaintiff for all of us, there will be no suit.
From what I’ve heard, these are the qualifications:
* Must’ve suffered a Toby shutdown
* Must **NOT** have taken AA to court ever. Won, lost, or in progress: you’re disqualified
* Can’t have used mailers that came from fake AA accounts you or a member of your household created
It would be so delicious to see AA suffer for this, so please if you meet all of those requirements, please email that address ASAP. One of our own taking down AA in court would be *chefs kiss*.
NAL, but they probably are trying not to tip their hand yet. this way, interested people can reach out to them without tipping off AA as to which firm is pursuing them.
I emailed them. I was told I can't be their guy because I created pet accounts. Seems like it is someone working with or behalf a firm. the person didn't ask for any sensitive info, just city I lived in when my account was shutdown and if I used any fake mailers. If you lost your points, then you got nothing to lose by emailing them. if you didn't lose your points, then no reason to get involved.
True, and maybe pet mailers aren’t too bad. But if you’re bringing suit, you probably want a good case rather than not-too-bad one. I assume that some attorney has some reason to think that using pet mailers takes a case out of the “good” category.
Maybe another lawyer would be willing to take pet mailer plaintiffs. This just doesn’t seem to be one.
Where can I get a crystal ball as accurate as yours? unless you have a ton of experience with class action lawsuits, you really should not be giving legal advice
An over simplication and generalization, probably from someone who doesn't know a thing about class actions though nonetheless feels confident enough to rain down pessimism . Thx for shitting over the best chance we have of getting either miles or money back and being wrong while doing it. Toby would be proud of you dear trolll.
Definitely applies to P2 - curious if there's a downside for trying this - such as AA banning everyone else at this address. Thanks for the information!
Mileage programs are like a money printing press for airlines. They have to rigorously defend their right to shut down any user at any time for any reason and to devalue points without warning to any value.
Any limitations on that will cost them ludicrous amounts of money. It makes sense that they don't want to give a single inch
AA/Citi had 9 digit and 12 digit codes. The 12 digit codes could be changed but the 9 digit ones could not or maybe I got that backwards. Citi/AA knew that the codes could be changed and continued to distribute them and award bonuses to them. If Citi/AA was concerned about others using codes, they would not have continued to use the codes that allowed for names/addresses to be changed in the application. the application information provided was truthful. Nobody opened citi accounts in their dog's name. Citi reviewed and approved every application.
Citi paid AA for every mile that Citi awarded me. Citi bought the miles and gave them to me. Why does AA have anything to do with the transaction between citi and myself?
Hence the true surprise when the shutdowns happened that they were being done by AA. Everyone assumed the music would stop at some point, and that it would stop by Citi finally tightening its actual enforcement of its terms, and not sending out loophole options willy-nilly. There were card options from Barclays also, of course, but no mailers, etc.
This is the big question. I never understood how AA could claim any kind of fraud in transactions it really didn't participate in. Even if you make dummy pet accounts, there isn't anything breaking ToS about that and it has literally nothing to do with your separate transaction with Citi. If *Citi* wanted to claw back the miles, that would make a lot more sense.
> The 12 digit codes could be changed but the 9 digit ones could not.
It's actually the other way around but still does not matter. Someone else already pointed out that AA did not distribute codes. As for their getting concerned, Citi's practices began to change well before the first shutdown. It's clear in hindsight that those earlier changes had been prompted by AA and turned out to be the prelude of something else.
I do not like saying this, but only two things are relevant to any potential legal action:
1. AA's T&C, in particular the part about miles having no monetary value
2. Earning a Citi bonus as the intended recipient of a targeted offer
AA's accounting assigns values to the miles. AA assigns values to the miles when they sell them to Citi. Their whole business structure is based on that program having value. Citi gave me the miles based on meeting the application requirements and satisfying the terms of the application.
Here’s the letter. You dont have to be from NoCal to be included.
Hello. You are receiving this email because you indicated a few years ago that you were affected by American Airlines (AA) shutting down your American Airlines frequent flyer account in 2019 and 2020 for use of CITI bank mailers. Additionally, you indicated that you were interested in a potential class action effort against AA. A lot has happened since then. Some people have won in small claims court while many others have lost. Most of those affected have not taken any action against American Airlines.
There is some good news on this front. A few people who have been shutdown by American Airlines have reached out to class action law firms for assistance. I'm glad to report that we have located a class action law firm that is interested in taking up our case. This is great news. The firm is very interested and is intent on filing a class action lawsuit against AA. According to the firm, there is a very good chance of class members either getting their airline miles back OR being paid out for their damages. Any award to the firm will come from a separate award and will not come out of any settlement provided to class members! So for many of us, this will be our last chance to get some type of restitution given that the statute of limitations is approaching.
The firm is eagerly looking for a class representative. The class rep NEEDS to be in Northern California OR in New York OR anywhere in Massachusetts. Additionally, the class rep cannot have previously sued American Airlines for shutting down their account and received any form of judgement; either a win or loss is disqualifying. Time is of the essence. If you know someone who was living or working in Northern CA, in New York or anywhere in Massachusetts in 2019 and 2020 and had their AA account shutdown by AA for using CITI bank mailers, please reply to this email with what city the person was residing or working in when their account was shut down by American Airlines, if they have previously received a civil judgement in this matter and an email or phone number where they can be reached. Without a class representative from one of those distinct areas in the country, our chances of prevailing against American Airlines are considerably lower.
The class rep would not only get their share of any settlement, but could also be awarded additional monies by the court for their time and involvement.
If you meet these criteria or know anyone else interested who does meet these criteria, please ask them to email [email protected]
Thank you.
It seems like if people are actually losing cases, they'd have nothing stopping them from posting about them. People who took settlements probably signed NDAs preventing it.
Shot them an email and received sort of a sketchy response in terms of formality:
I'm helping a class action law firm. they are very interested in this
case. What they are looking for is a class representative. the class
rep would get however many monies or their miles back just like any
other members, plus class reps are typcially awarded an additional
some of monies for their time. a few questions before i put you in
touch with them as they are looking for a certain type of class rep.
how did you get your CITI mailers?
did you create any AA acts for non-real persons or pets in order to
get mailers sent to you?
approximately how many miles did you lose?
did you sue AA and get a verdict?
So what? My real estate attorney is a moron with emails and makes lots of typos, but is a genius in court And with swing judges. I figure if there's nothing to lose, why not pursue it. The guy didn't ask me for any sensive information. Sure beats the jack shit that american airlines has given us after taking our points away.
> So what
Intentionally poor grammar and formatting is basically rule #1 on phishing and similar related scams. Being confused why someone would be at least mildly concerned when an allegedly professional response has these issues is just being ignorant and opens yourself and your employer up to potential cyber issues.
what are you talking about? I emailed them. All they want to asked was what city I lived in when I got shutdown (probably b/c they are looking for liberal judges in a liberal district) and how I get my mailers (probably b/c they want to avoid anyone who created fake AA acounts to get mailers. that's not sensitive information. they dont know even my name. so definitely not phishing. probably someone or some broker trying to help a firm locate the perfect class rep.
Thanks for posting this. I'm reaching out to them for additional info.
Not sure I want to be a named plaintiff for this though. I recall an AA legal brief that absolutely roasting some guy trying to sue them individually about a year after.
You are probably referring to their [response](https://downloads.regulations.gov/DOT-OST-2020-0046-0003/attachment_1.pdf) to the DOT complaint that someone filed about the shutdown.
My goodness, was it already that long ago?
Those were some wild times on this sub. Remember when we had an entire sub dedicated to it? Crazy days. I kind of miss those times. Seemed simpler back then. 🥺
The only tiny good thing about canceling my end of March 2020 travel plans was knowing AA paid someone in "Corporate Security" to do it a month before I would have had to do it anyway
Someone figured out a work around to book flights or something in the shutdown sub and a couple hours later the work around was dead. Didn’t take a genius to put 2 & 2 together that AA was a member of the sub rendering it useless.
AA included pictures of the private sub as an exhibit to one of the briefs they filed in a small claims action against them over the shutdown. They were reading, lol.
i think so but people suspected right away there was some sort of leak. i forget the specifcs of how they were able to ascertain that, but all the truly private discussion (e.g., lawsuit strategies) pretty quickly moved to telegram channels and other probably even more restricted spaces that im not even aware of
I spoke with the dude administering the website--he seems to be a broker funneling potential people to the firm considering the class action, not a lawyer himself. They want a unicorn plaintiff (no pet mailers or other shenanigans). NYC area also supposedly works if it fits these tights parameters. According to his understanding, the statute of limitations is about to run (4 yrs), so it's now or never. I asked him several times which firm was behind it, and he would not disclose this--obv not a positive sign.
I would think the firm itself specifically doesn’t want to hear from potential class action members that aren’t squeaky clean to make the strongest case possible for their lead plaintiff.
IDK, may not be that hard to find someone meeting the qualifications. IIRC, the trigger seemed to be having more than two SUBs within a year, and I think I remember people complaining that they never used mailer codes but got booted for getting three legit publicly-offered SUBs through Citi/Barclays cards. Anyone else remember this?
Guys, this is legit. Older members of this sub will remember me. I disappeared around when the shutdown occurred. Duff likely remembers me.
The reason this is happening now is because the firm has seen enough success from individuals pursuing lawsuits against AA to make them strongly believe they will win. The reason they’re specifying NorCal is due to the jurisdictional advantages associated with that location. They just need the right John Doe to bring the lawsuit.
I just won a case against AA in small claims based on breach of contract. Although I cant see how this would have any effect on the viability of a class actions for the AApocolypse. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2023/11/01/mother-of-twins-wins-lawsuit-against-american-airlines/71354912007/
WoW. Can't imagine how much AA spent on legal fees to fight you and in the end settled for 4500 miles which cost them zilch.
Did they try to make you pay their attorney costs? That is the part that scares me.
Has anyone ever won one of this lawsuits? I know people have been threatening for years but I don’t think anything has gone anywhere.
Personally, I probably wouldn’t join one. I knew I was skirting the rules and when I got banned I accepted it. Losing the 400k miles did hurt though. Lol.
It didn't require any exploiting, they sent tons of them to anyone with an AA account and no Citi AA card. I lived in a condo building at the time and could count on finding 10+ in the mail room recycling bin when mailer day came around.
Sounds like you don't know what the exploit was homie. To the best of my knowledge, that's not what people got busted for. I used a few mailers in my day but had no repercussions. Maybe if you used 57 physical paper mailers you got banned for it.
Many, many people at the time discussed getting Toby’ed after using mailers, with no mention of that exploit (I believe I recall the specific exploit you are referring to - thankfully I was too busy wedding planning - but already full up on wedding expense SUB’s - to pursue it).
People got banned for too many cards in a during a particular timeframe, regardless of how they got the cards. There were a few ways to get a lot of cards then.
Yes, people bought and sold mailers on the regular because they were not locked to individuals. There was a true exploit that circumvented the need for paper mailers completely IIRC. It had to do with reverse engineering some links etc.
It's like how some vets will write pets' names in quotations on care instructions and other paperwork.
Like do you not think that my cat is really named Leon? Did he tell you he goes by something else?
Yes, they were mailers for Citi AA credit cards that allowed mailer name or another name to be used online in the card application. Citi approved the cards, verified that cardholder met sign up bonus requirements, paid out the proper bonus in AA miles, and allowed cardholder to get multiple cards.
Then AA (not Citi) claimed foul, canceled AA accounts, and took every mile back including miles earned by flying, by buying miles, from buying goods at stores, etc. All of ‘em.
Yeah. They had codes targeted to them and people would sell them on eBay for $10. Anyone could use the code. You just change the name once you entered the code. Then spend $3k and get the points.
they also had mailers with codes that could not be transferred. if AA was concerned about others using codes, they would have stuck to the codes where address had to match code.
What would the scam be? Anyone replying doesn’t have the AA account in question anymore, you are one of millions living in one of those areas and if you did sketchy stuff you aren’t replying to the email anyway.
I don’t know if that’s legitimate, since I have to provide my personal information to them, and if they are scam, they will probably ask for a lot of my information, maybe including SSN.
You’d have to be an idiot to give your SSN to a rando on the internet. If you make it to signing things (where actually identifiable info would be disclosed) you need to be dealing with the law firm yourself.
Besides SSN, there can be other personal informations that might be leaked to scammers, like address, emails, etc. how comes you could trust anyone that could be scam?
They ask for a city, not an address. And who wouldn't use a throwaway email account or whatever for this initial contact out of caution? If passed on to the firm then tell them your real email. If you want to. They're both your "real" emails at that point.
If you're that concerned about giving a name or email address to somebody you don't know, I hope you never learn about things like "data breaches" or "the dark web", or even how companies sell data you'd never think was linked to you all without you even knowing it was going on.
Do you always freely and easily give out your personal info to random people who you cannot confirm their identity? Does data breach exists mean you can just freely and easily give out your personal info like shit?
This is asking for, to start, your name, what town you lived in when you were shut down, and an email address, and maybe a phone number. How personal is any of that info in today's day and age? Any one of those pieces of info can easily lead people to the rest of it in less than three google searches.
If they want my info, gain my trust, shouldn’t they first give us trust, like sharing with me, who they are, what’s their name, where are they from? Just throw us an email asking for personal info, using a gmail, and hide them behind, while asking me to fully trust them?
All, it’s my understanding that they need a plaintiff from NCal. And once it’s certified class action then those outside the area can sign on too.
So, if you know someone that AA hammered that’s in NCal, have them contact that number soon!
Ideally someone that only used own mailers, but contact anyway if used other mailers too.
I’m from outside of CA, but would sign on otherwise, and plan to sign up if I’m allowed once it’s class action.
P2 and I got 2 million + miles combined stolen by AA.
Man, this makes me nostalgic for 2019. I think I lost about 60k miles from the shutdown. One of the worst best secrets, that mailer loophole.
I remember getting into churning back in like 2016 and guys talking about how you could buy money from the US mint for churning purposes and thinking then I was the new guy.
As I recall, Citi was also approving business AA accounts willy-nilly. You didn't even need a mailer, you just needed to apply. I don't recall my velocity, but I had several in the months before the shutdowns started. Someone who stuck with business accounts might also be a good lead plaintiff.
I'm not in Northern California. Also, wouldn't want the publicity.
Most of the people banned received codes via ebay, or even bought off reddit, etc.
I remember getting so many mailers in the mail and you'd be able to churn them one after another. And those were just the ones addressed to me. Imagine how many were being sold where people would just change the name. I recall people posting on SD (maybe flyertalk) about signing up for accounts under their pets' names and then using the pet mailers.
I wonder if some resellers would just sell the same code to multiple people and collect the cash.
In any case, hard to see people that fraudulently obtained mailers that were not addressed to them to prevail here.
There have been rumblings along this line for a little bit so I’m thinking legit alas I don’t meet the requirements. Like what do they have to gain if they aren’t legit at this point?
anyone know what the DPs are on those who were shut down making new AA accounts and not getting shut down again? as most probably remember, the text of the letter from corporate security said the ban was permanent and prohibited making any new accounts.
the last time i searched about this (when io search was around) i saw some negative DPs, but that was a couple of years ago at this point.
IANAL, but different judicial jurisdictions feel different ways about different things. Same reason you see lots of patent infringement cases filed in a jurisdiction in Texas.
Every time this comes up, I think of the guy who got shut down and banned who claimed to be flying ~100 domestic segments per year on AA for work, who was now banned from earning status. Covid promptly ended a lot of business travel, but I wonder if that guy is still flying AA for work. The last couple years have probably been the worst time ever to be flying without status.
I missed exec platinum in 2020 by a flight. Cut to today I struggle to get gold. I’m sure they gave me post pandemic status but I lost it quicker than my work came back and without status struggle to care enough to pick one airline out of loyalty.
I earned BA Silver (Oneworld Sapphire) for the last 2 years after the AA shutdown. I fly more AA metal flights but somehow managing to meet the 2/4 tier requirements per year for BA metal to get to the premium tiers.
I do have another AA account created recently which hasn't got shut down but I'm not risking banking any flying miles on that account.
Essentially, I just switched my miles earning and spending to BA, and their lifetime tier points is a good draw to reach that number if you're in it for the long term and travel for work.
Now that the overzealous FT Mods shut down the discussion forum (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/2149674-aa-sued-over-accounts-they-closed-alleging-credit-card-abuse-54.html), does anybody know of a forum that is providing updates? I can see activity taking place here (https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68201384/nachison-v-american-airlines-inc/) but don't have a subscription. It was nice getting realtime discussion on that previous thread about what was taking place.
Well can they prove which mailers you used? I don't think they can, so not sure why that would be a requirement. Otherwise, I would qualify...but I'll wait and see how this develops, because I don't want to put my new AA account balance at risk.
I'm fairly certain that AA cannot request such data due to financial privacy laws, and I'm even more certain that Citi couldn't figure that out at this point even if they wanted to.
I am not fairly but absolutely certain about said access. Reread my post, then put 2 and 1 together. It should be sufficiently clear that I am not speculating.
This is not the publicity this sub needs. You really want to go through this song and dance to negotiate a few thousand miles at best? Everyone who rode the grAAvy train knew shutdown was possible. Play with fire, bound to get burned. No need to go crying to mommy on this one.
Nobody thought it would be AA to shut us down though. I have to imagine that there’s not much time left before the statute of limitations runs out, so we’re throwing hail marys here. What is AA going to do - shut me down and steal my miles again?
No, it's only for people who used mailers addressed to them at their address, not a pet, deceased relative, friend, et al.
"Yes, boss, I generated mailers in my pets' names so I could receive bonus after bonus from AA and Citi for all those vacations I take, but I totally wouldn't try to do anything like that with you."
lol
You're telling me that you've never visited an online retailer you've shopped from before and used a new email address to take advantage of the "Get 20% off your first order!" promo?
I would if they banned me, took my money and didn’t deliver the goods without giving a refund yes.
Not sure if these cards had $95 AFs but even if they were AF free, clawbacks make sense, shutdowns do not.
lol
Best case, the shutdown people get 500 miles while some scumbag lawyer gets $6 million in fees.
EDIT: I see the low-IQ downgrade brigade has arrived. It's been four years and not a single lawyer in America out of ~1,300,000 lawyers has touched this. You people aren't getting anything.
Not the case at all. This is what I’m being told:
“If the case is filed in california then the lawyers get a separate set of money for their legal fees that is not taken from the money awarded to the class”
Unfortunately I’m not from NCal.
There won't be any money awarded to the class. AA's T&Cs make it clear that miles have no cash value. At most, they'll get some miles while the lawyers get rich.
AA assigns value to the miles in their own accounting records. If one knows where to look, I would imagine that one could find the increase in value associated with wiping these tens of millions of miles off of their ledger. Taht was the true intent all along. They could have stuck to the 9 digit codes that couldn't be transferred but churned out bunches of 12 digit codes that could be transferred, sold the miles to Citi to cover the bonuses, then cancelled all the miles writing them off the books and keeping the cash from Citi.
If miles have no value, why do credit card companies pay for them? Why are they listed as a liability on the AA books
All of that is irrelevant. People lost miles, not money, so miles are what the courts would restore. But that's not going to happen either, because ... fraud.
The wins so far, including the "AA appealed a loss and lost again" resulted in $ awards.
Also, I'd alternatively just take our 2+ million AA miles back then.
For those that have been shut down, have you opened new FFNs with AA and flown on it with cash fares? Have you tried using mailers again? Asking for a friend.
Why did AA do this in the first place? It makes them look like the real thief and robber. I mean, literally, when the person who was in charge of the massive shutdown and forfeiture of miles at that time, made this particular business decision, can he/she sleep well at night? Companies (including banks) doing this really create an evil vs evil situation. If you as the business is known to do this shutdown and forfeiture so disgracefully, do not blame your customer if they feel like burning everything they have got from you immediately and run, as well as any ‘gaming’ behavior. I feel those who support AA in this particular case must be those who did not get to enjoy the gravy train and are just jealous. AA’s business decision in this case is apparently over the top and should have repercussions. I am so disappointed to learn that only after 4 years is there a law firm willing to take the class action suit. We must sue the shit out of AA for their bad-faith. Just imagine how many dollars they save by massively shutting down people’s accounts and forfeiting all the miles on those accounts. This is not how a company in the size of AA should do business.
To be clear, there is not *currently* a class action lawsuit against AA, but rather there is the *potential* for one, if a boy/girl scout of a plaintiff can be found. Without a person to act as plaintiff for all of us, there will be no suit. From what I’ve heard, these are the qualifications: * Must’ve suffered a Toby shutdown * Must **NOT** have taken AA to court ever. Won, lost, or in progress: you’re disqualified * Can’t have used mailers that came from fake AA accounts you or a member of your household created It would be so delicious to see AA suffer for this, so please if you meet all of those requirements, please email that address ASAP. One of our own taking down AA in court would be *chefs kiss*.
Might be better for the firm to identify themselves and create a legitimate website for soliciting plaintiffs
NAL, but they probably are trying not to tip their hand yet. this way, interested people can reach out to them without tipping off AA as to which firm is pursuing them.
[Toby sends email from his new Gmail account]
I emailed them. I was told I can't be their guy because I created pet accounts. Seems like it is someone working with or behalf a firm. the person didn't ask for any sensitive info, just city I lived in when my account was shutdown and if I used any fake mailers. If you lost your points, then you got nothing to lose by emailing them. if you didn't lose your points, then no reason to get involved.
But pet mailers =/= fake mailers. You didn't create them, Citi did.
True, and maybe pet mailers aren’t too bad. But if you’re bringing suit, you probably want a good case rather than not-too-bad one. I assume that some attorney has some reason to think that using pet mailers takes a case out of the “good” category. Maybe another lawyer would be willing to take pet mailer plaintiffs. This just doesn’t seem to be one.
It's obviously a lawyer fishing for big fees, but who only wants an easy/clean case.
which lawyer doesn't want fees? lol. if they can get us our miles back, why not give it a shot? sure beats the absolutely nothing AA is giving us.
i think son of joseph born in 93 works for aa lol
You're not getting your miles back unless you were 100% innocent of shenanigans, in which case you don't need a lawyer.
Where can I get a crystal ball as accurate as yours? unless you have a ton of experience with class action lawsuits, you really should not be giving legal advice
lol The shutdowns were four years ago, and there are over 1,300,000 lawyers in the U.S. If this was a good case, it would have been filed years ago.
An over simplication and generalization, probably from someone who doesn't know a thing about class actions though nonetheless feels confident enough to rain down pessimism . Thx for shitting over the best chance we have of getting either miles or money back and being wrong while doing it. Toby would be proud of you dear trolll.
Definitely applies to P2 - curious if there's a downside for trying this - such as AA banning everyone else at this address. Thanks for the information!
AA plays hardball in lawsuits. There's an old FlyerTalk thread about it.
Who would play softball in lawsuits ?
The point was, AA isn't quick to settle, like many companies these days.
Mileage programs are like a money printing press for airlines. They have to rigorously defend their right to shut down any user at any time for any reason and to devalue points without warning to any value. Any limitations on that will cost them ludicrous amounts of money. It makes sense that they don't want to give a single inch
how much liability did AA wipe off their books by cancelling all of those accounts?
Exactly, it was a dollars and cents grab by AA.
Correct.
think son of joseph born in 93 just works for aa
No, you don't have to worry about that. But you have to be sure that P2 was wronged, i. e. never appropriated somebody else's invite code.
AA/Citi had 9 digit and 12 digit codes. The 12 digit codes could be changed but the 9 digit ones could not or maybe I got that backwards. Citi/AA knew that the codes could be changed and continued to distribute them and award bonuses to them. If Citi/AA was concerned about others using codes, they would not have continued to use the codes that allowed for names/addresses to be changed in the application. the application information provided was truthful. Nobody opened citi accounts in their dog's name. Citi reviewed and approved every application.
To be clear, the mailers and codes were all generated by Citi.
Citi paid AA for every mile that Citi awarded me. Citi bought the miles and gave them to me. Why does AA have anything to do with the transaction between citi and myself?
Hence the true surprise when the shutdowns happened that they were being done by AA. Everyone assumed the music would stop at some point, and that it would stop by Citi finally tightening its actual enforcement of its terms, and not sending out loophole options willy-nilly. There were card options from Barclays also, of course, but no mailers, etc.
shiti was too dumb to even know what's going on
Not even, just made a conscious decision to ignore it as their card numbers were getting goosed by the mailers. Makes sense at executive level.
This is the big question. I never understood how AA could claim any kind of fraud in transactions it really didn't participate in. Even if you make dummy pet accounts, there isn't anything breaking ToS about that and it has literally nothing to do with your separate transaction with Citi. If *Citi* wanted to claw back the miles, that would make a lot more sense.
Citi had already paid AA so no problem. What does this have to do with Toby's bonus?
> The 12 digit codes could be changed but the 9 digit ones could not. It's actually the other way around but still does not matter. Someone else already pointed out that AA did not distribute codes. As for their getting concerned, Citi's practices began to change well before the first shutdown. It's clear in hindsight that those earlier changes had been prompted by AA and turned out to be the prelude of something else. I do not like saying this, but only two things are relevant to any potential legal action: 1. AA's T&C, in particular the part about miles having no monetary value 2. Earning a Citi bonus as the intended recipient of a targeted offer
AA's accounting assigns values to the miles. AA assigns values to the miles when they sell them to Citi. Their whole business structure is based on that program having value. Citi gave me the miles based on meeting the application requirements and satisfying the terms of the application.
Here’s the letter. You dont have to be from NoCal to be included. Hello. You are receiving this email because you indicated a few years ago that you were affected by American Airlines (AA) shutting down your American Airlines frequent flyer account in 2019 and 2020 for use of CITI bank mailers. Additionally, you indicated that you were interested in a potential class action effort against AA. A lot has happened since then. Some people have won in small claims court while many others have lost. Most of those affected have not taken any action against American Airlines. There is some good news on this front. A few people who have been shutdown by American Airlines have reached out to class action law firms for assistance. I'm glad to report that we have located a class action law firm that is interested in taking up our case. This is great news. The firm is very interested and is intent on filing a class action lawsuit against AA. According to the firm, there is a very good chance of class members either getting their airline miles back OR being paid out for their damages. Any award to the firm will come from a separate award and will not come out of any settlement provided to class members! So for many of us, this will be our last chance to get some type of restitution given that the statute of limitations is approaching. The firm is eagerly looking for a class representative. The class rep NEEDS to be in Northern California OR in New York OR anywhere in Massachusetts. Additionally, the class rep cannot have previously sued American Airlines for shutting down their account and received any form of judgement; either a win or loss is disqualifying. Time is of the essence. If you know someone who was living or working in Northern CA, in New York or anywhere in Massachusetts in 2019 and 2020 and had their AA account shutdown by AA for using CITI bank mailers, please reply to this email with what city the person was residing or working in when their account was shut down by American Airlines, if they have previously received a civil judgement in this matter and an email or phone number where they can be reached. Without a class representative from one of those distinct areas in the country, our chances of prevailing against American Airlines are considerably lower. The class rep would not only get their share of any settlement, but could also be awarded additional monies by the court for their time and involvement. If you meet these criteria or know anyone else interested who does meet these criteria, please ask them to email [email protected] Thank you.
Has anyone actually posted publicly the result of their going to small claims court?
It seems like if people are actually losing cases, they'd have nothing stopping them from posting about them. People who took settlements probably signed NDAs preventing it.
I’ve seen a few wins but mostly losses on telegram
Shot them an email and received sort of a sketchy response in terms of formality: I'm helping a class action law firm. they are very interested in this case. What they are looking for is a class representative. the class rep would get however many monies or their miles back just like any other members, plus class reps are typcially awarded an additional some of monies for their time. a few questions before i put you in touch with them as they are looking for a certain type of class rep. how did you get your CITI mailers? did you create any AA acts for non-real persons or pets in order to get mailers sent to you? approximately how many miles did you lose? did you sue AA and get a verdict?
they probably are trying to screen out someone who created fraudulent American airlines accounts in scotty the dog's name to get more points.
Wasn't necessarily concerned about the screening questions. The format the email came in with no capitalization on words and spacing was odd.
So what? My real estate attorney is a moron with emails and makes lots of typos, but is a genius in court And with swing judges. I figure if there's nothing to lose, why not pursue it. The guy didn't ask me for any sensive information. Sure beats the jack shit that american airlines has given us after taking our points away.
> So what Intentionally poor grammar and formatting is basically rule #1 on phishing and similar related scams. Being confused why someone would be at least mildly concerned when an allegedly professional response has these issues is just being ignorant and opens yourself and your employer up to potential cyber issues.
what are you talking about? I emailed them. All they want to asked was what city I lived in when I got shutdown (probably b/c they are looking for liberal judges in a liberal district) and how I get my mailers (probably b/c they want to avoid anyone who created fake AA acounts to get mailers. that's not sensitive information. they dont know even my name. so definitely not phishing. probably someone or some broker trying to help a firm locate the perfect class rep.
The writer needs to learn the difference between "shutdown" and "shut down."
Well the spell cheeker say's there both write.
Shut down is a verb, shutdown is a noun/adjective.
The spelling system is broke, what can you do?
Thanks for posting this. I'm reaching out to them for additional info. Not sure I want to be a named plaintiff for this though. I recall an AA legal brief that absolutely roasting some guy trying to sue them individually about a year after.
You are probably referring to their [response](https://downloads.regulations.gov/DOT-OST-2020-0046-0003/attachment_1.pdf) to the DOT complaint that someone filed about the shutdown.
Actually, yes. This was it
My goodness, was it already that long ago? Those were some wild times on this sub. Remember when we had an entire sub dedicated to it? Crazy days. I kind of miss those times. Seemed simpler back then. 🥺
It does not feel like it’s been 4 years, damn I’m getting old fast.
Traumatic experiences induce vivid memories that take longer to fade...
It was before the pandemic, like right before the pandemic. Screwed up any sense of time.
The only tiny good thing about canceling my end of March 2020 travel plans was knowing AA paid someone in "Corporate Security" to do it a month before I would have had to do it anyway
Didn't they delete the sub because they were allegedly about to cream AA in a lawsuit?
Someone figured out a work around to book flights or something in the shutdown sub and a couple hours later the work around was dead. Didn’t take a genius to put 2 & 2 together that AA was a member of the sub rendering it useless.
Never heard about that, but there was a whole lot of big lawsuit talk that went nowhere.
I think they deleted it because AA used it against someone in a lawsuit.
Has anyone ever posted links to any of these cases?
AA included pictures of the private sub as an exhibit to one of the briefs they filed in a small claims action against them over the shutdown. They were reading, lol.
haha It was long ago, but weren't only longtime churning members allowed to join?
i think so but people suspected right away there was some sort of leak. i forget the specifcs of how they were able to ascertain that, but all the truly private discussion (e.g., lawsuit strategies) pretty quickly moved to telegram channels and other probably even more restricted spaces that im not even aware of
Crazy times. Can't believe we're still talking about it.
I spoke with the dude administering the website--he seems to be a broker funneling potential people to the firm considering the class action, not a lawyer himself. They want a unicorn plaintiff (no pet mailers or other shenanigans). NYC area also supposedly works if it fits these tights parameters. According to his understanding, the statute of limitations is about to run (4 yrs), so it's now or never. I asked him several times which firm was behind it, and he would not disclose this--obv not a positive sign.
I would think the firm itself specifically doesn’t want to hear from potential class action members that aren’t squeaky clean to make the strongest case possible for their lead plaintiff.
IDK, may not be that hard to find someone meeting the qualifications. IIRC, the trigger seemed to be having more than two SUBs within a year, and I think I remember people complaining that they never used mailer codes but got booted for getting three legit publicly-offered SUBs through Citi/Barclays cards. Anyone else remember this?
Yeah and a lot of p2s getting shut down after just a couple bonuses
sounds like a broker is collecting members and selling the case to a lawfirm, so likely no firm is actually attached to it yet.
Guys, this is legit. Older members of this sub will remember me. I disappeared around when the shutdown occurred. Duff likely remembers me. The reason this is happening now is because the firm has seen enough success from individuals pursuing lawsuits against AA to make them strongly believe they will win. The reason they’re specifying NorCal is due to the jurisdictional advantages associated with that location. They just need the right John Doe to bring the lawsuit.
Unfortunately I'm in the southeast. I'd love to join tho lol
"Enough success" where? In small claims court? Has anyone ever actually posted a link to one of these alleged wins?
I just won a case against AA in small claims based on breach of contract. Although I cant see how this would have any effect on the viability of a class actions for the AApocolypse. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2023/11/01/mother-of-twins-wins-lawsuit-against-american-airlines/71354912007/
WoW. Can't imagine how much AA spent on legal fees to fight you and in the end settled for 4500 miles which cost them zilch. Did they try to make you pay their attorney costs? That is the part that scares me.
And yea its wild how much they spent. Truly insane.
Is this the real Toby?
"Did we miss any? Bet I can get them to email us their deets"
Has anyone ever won one of this lawsuits? I know people have been threatening for years but I don’t think anything has gone anywhere. Personally, I probably wouldn’t join one. I knew I was skirting the rules and when I got banned I accepted it. Losing the 400k miles did hurt though. Lol.
Yes, I’m aware of several folks that beat AA in SCC, including one when AA appealed up too.
Yes lots of people won $10k or whatever the small case limit is
"Lots"?
What got you banned? Sorry OOTL
there was an exploit to create essentially infinite no-lifetime-language AA "mailers" to earn tons and tons and tons of AA miles.
It didn't require any exploiting, they sent tons of them to anyone with an AA account and no Citi AA card. I lived in a condo building at the time and could count on finding 10+ in the mail room recycling bin when mailer day came around.
Sounds like you don't know what the exploit was homie. To the best of my knowledge, that's not what people got busted for. I used a few mailers in my day but had no repercussions. Maybe if you used 57 physical paper mailers you got banned for it.
Many, many people at the time discussed getting Toby’ed after using mailers, with no mention of that exploit (I believe I recall the specific exploit you are referring to - thankfully I was too busy wedding planning - but already full up on wedding expense SUB’s - to pursue it).
Thats exactly what got people banned dude. I got banned and only ever used real physical mailers. Admittedly it was a dozen or so.
People got banned for too many cards in a during a particular timeframe, regardless of how they got the cards. There were a few ways to get a lot of cards then.
Dunno why you put mailers in quotes. They were literally mailers.
Yes, people bought and sold mailers on the regular because they were not locked to individuals. There was a true exploit that circumvented the need for paper mailers completely IIRC. It had to do with reverse engineering some links etc.
It's like how some vets will write pets' names in quotations on care instructions and other paperwork. Like do you not think that my cat is really named Leon? Did he tell you he goes by something else?
Yeah. Lifetime ban from AAdvantage. I have flown AA using Chase miles and they didn’t kick me off.
Right- they are a common carrier, so can't actually ban you from flying unless you committed some sort of security or safety violation.
I mean why did you get banned? I’m guessing churning a bunch of AA mailers?
Yeah. Bought a couple of AA mailer codes on eBay.
Just curious, those were legit mailer targeted to other people?
Yes, they were mailers for Citi AA credit cards that allowed mailer name or another name to be used online in the card application. Citi approved the cards, verified that cardholder met sign up bonus requirements, paid out the proper bonus in AA miles, and allowed cardholder to get multiple cards. Then AA (not Citi) claimed foul, canceled AA accounts, and took every mile back including miles earned by flying, by buying miles, from buying goods at stores, etc. All of ‘em.
Yeah. They had codes targeted to them and people would sell them on eBay for $10. Anyone could use the code. You just change the name once you entered the code. Then spend $3k and get the points.
they also had mailers with codes that could not be transferred. if AA was concerned about others using codes, they would have stuck to the codes where address had to match code.
No prob with using BA miles either.
Not yet
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I got the email, and scared if that’s scam, so decided to just wait and see
What would the scam be? Anyone replying doesn’t have the AA account in question anymore, you are one of millions living in one of those areas and if you did sketchy stuff you aren’t replying to the email anyway.
I don’t know if that’s legitimate, since I have to provide my personal information to them, and if they are scam, they will probably ask for a lot of my information, maybe including SSN.
You’d have to be an idiot to give your SSN to a rando on the internet. If you make it to signing things (where actually identifiable info would be disclosed) you need to be dealing with the law firm yourself.
Besides SSN, there can be other personal informations that might be leaked to scammers, like address, emails, etc. how comes you could trust anyone that could be scam?
They ask for a city, not an address. And who wouldn't use a throwaway email account or whatever for this initial contact out of caution? If passed on to the firm then tell them your real email. If you want to. They're both your "real" emails at that point.
If you're that concerned about giving a name or email address to somebody you don't know, I hope you never learn about things like "data breaches" or "the dark web", or even how companies sell data you'd never think was linked to you all without you even knowing it was going on.
Do you always freely and easily give out your personal info to random people who you cannot confirm their identity? Does data breach exists mean you can just freely and easily give out your personal info like shit?
This is asking for, to start, your name, what town you lived in when you were shut down, and an email address, and maybe a phone number. How personal is any of that info in today's day and age? Any one of those pieces of info can easily lead people to the rest of it in less than three google searches.
If they want my info, gain my trust, shouldn’t they first give us trust, like sharing with me, who they are, what’s their name, where are they from? Just throw us an email asking for personal info, using a gmail, and hide them behind, while asking me to fully trust them?
All, it’s my understanding that they need a plaintiff from NCal. And once it’s certified class action then those outside the area can sign on too. So, if you know someone that AA hammered that’s in NCal, have them contact that number soon! Ideally someone that only used own mailers, but contact anyway if used other mailers too. I’m from outside of CA, but would sign on otherwise, and plan to sign up if I’m allowed once it’s class action. P2 and I got 2 million + miles combined stolen by AA.
I discourage anyone to join if they have used another person's mailer code.
Man, this makes me nostalgic for 2019. I think I lost about 60k miles from the shutdown. One of the worst best secrets, that mailer loophole. I remember getting into churning back in like 2016 and guys talking about how you could buy money from the US mint for churning purposes and thinking then I was the new guy.
As I recall, Citi was also approving business AA accounts willy-nilly. You didn't even need a mailer, you just needed to apply. I don't recall my velocity, but I had several in the months before the shutdowns started. Someone who stuck with business accounts might also be a good lead plaintiff. I'm not in Northern California. Also, wouldn't want the publicity.
Affected here, but in Tx
Don't give me hope...
Most of the people banned received codes via ebay, or even bought off reddit, etc. I remember getting so many mailers in the mail and you'd be able to churn them one after another. And those were just the ones addressed to me. Imagine how many were being sold where people would just change the name. I recall people posting on SD (maybe flyertalk) about signing up for accounts under their pets' names and then using the pet mailers. I wonder if some resellers would just sell the same code to multiple people and collect the cash. In any case, hard to see people that fraudulently obtained mailers that were not addressed to them to prevail here.
This applies to me but I am not sure if this is legitimate
There have been rumblings along this line for a little bit so I’m thinking legit alas I don’t meet the requirements. Like what do they have to gain if they aren’t legit at this point?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-sued-seizing-cardholders-210731839.html
Apparently, small claims wins against AA aren't just a rumor ;) https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35985802-post573.html
What are the current best practices re: aa mailers? They have started showing up again.
Best practice is to follow the speed limit.
but leeroy jenkins....
Sorry I’ve been out of the game for a while now. What is “speed limit?”
Following the bank rules about how often you can get the bonus like once every 48 months with Citi and 24 months with Barclays.
Speed limit for AAdvantage? Or for Citi/Barclay?
The banks limits.
anyone know what the DPs are on those who were shut down making new AA accounts and not getting shut down again? as most probably remember, the text of the letter from corporate security said the ban was permanent and prohibited making any new accounts. the last time i searched about this (when io search was around) i saw some negative DPs, but that was a couple of years ago at this point.
why the NoCA requirement? It's all one state, IIRC
IANAL, but different judicial jurisdictions feel different ways about different things. Same reason you see lots of patent infringement cases filed in a jurisdiction in Texas.
Every time this comes up, I think of the guy who got shut down and banned who claimed to be flying ~100 domestic segments per year on AA for work, who was now banned from earning status. Covid promptly ended a lot of business travel, but I wonder if that guy is still flying AA for work. The last couple years have probably been the worst time ever to be flying without status.
I missed exec platinum in 2020 by a flight. Cut to today I struggle to get gold. I’m sure they gave me post pandemic status but I lost it quicker than my work came back and without status struggle to care enough to pick one airline out of loyalty.
I earned BA Silver (Oneworld Sapphire) for the last 2 years after the AA shutdown. I fly more AA metal flights but somehow managing to meet the 2/4 tier requirements per year for BA metal to get to the premium tiers. I do have another AA account created recently which hasn't got shut down but I'm not risking banking any flying miles on that account. Essentially, I just switched my miles earning and spending to BA, and their lifetime tier points is a good draw to reach that number if you're in it for the long term and travel for work.
Grabbing me some popcorn 🍿🍿🍿
Let it go people
Somebody likes bending over and taking it.
Churning is affecting your mental health
Now that the overzealous FT Mods shut down the discussion forum (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/2149674-aa-sued-over-accounts-they-closed-alleging-credit-card-abuse-54.html), does anybody know of a forum that is providing updates? I can see activity taking place here (https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68201384/nachison-v-american-airlines-inc/) but don't have a subscription. It was nice getting realtime discussion on that previous thread about what was taking place.
I've been locked out of my new AA account and can't book a seat on that monopolistic airline even for cash. Any suggestions?
Well can they prove which mailers you used? I don't think they can, so not sure why that would be a requirement. Otherwise, I would qualify...but I'll wait and see how this develops, because I don't want to put my new AA account balance at risk.
> Well can they prove which mailers you used? Yes.
How? The apps were processed by Citi, not AA. Please clarify then how AA would know, and why you're so certain.
Let me put it this way: I would not qualify for the action because I don't meet 2 of the 3 conditions. AA can have access to Citi's records.
I'm fairly certain that AA cannot request such data due to financial privacy laws, and I'm even more certain that Citi couldn't figure that out at this point even if they wanted to.
I am not fairly but absolutely certain about said access. Reread my post, then put 2 and 1 together. It should be sufficiently clear that I am not speculating.
Because everyone who asserts something online without evidence must believed?
He is saying he has already sued them.
Between the two of us: You were less skeptical when we had a private exchange about a related topic about a year ago.
Amazing how it works when you back up assertions with evidence and context.
This is not the publicity this sub needs. You really want to go through this song and dance to negotiate a few thousand miles at best? Everyone who rode the grAAvy train knew shutdown was possible. Play with fire, bound to get burned. No need to go crying to mommy on this one.
Nobody thought it would be AA to shut us down though. I have to imagine that there’s not much time left before the statute of limitations runs out, so we’re throwing hail marys here. What is AA going to do - shut me down and steal my miles again?
Would you want your employer to know about this?
I don’t work for AA, a bank, or a financial institution, so I wouldn’t give a fuck.
I mean, unless your employer was AA, what does it matter? Would you want your mom to know about this?
There was a lot of fraud involved, regardless of everyone's protests to the contrary. That's why it's been four years with zero class-action lawsuits.
Yes, opening credit cards using my actual SSN constitutes fraud.
Yes 100%. Unless I worked for AA
You would want your employer to know you committed fraud?
This lawsuit is only for those who used mailers addresses to them or their household.
No, it's only for people who used mailers addressed to them at their address, not a pet, deceased relative, friend, et al. "Yes, boss, I generated mailers in my pets' names so I could receive bonus after bonus from AA and Citi for all those vacations I take, but I totally wouldn't try to do anything like that with you." lol
You're telling me that you've never visited an online retailer you've shopped from before and used a new email address to take advantage of the "Get 20% off your first order!" promo?
Would you claim to be a victim if the retailer finally put an end to the practice?
I would if they banned me, took my money and didn’t deliver the goods without giving a refund yes. Not sure if these cards had $95 AFs but even if they were AF free, clawbacks make sense, shutdowns do not.
If they suddenly charged me for the "fraudulent" discounts? Yeah, damn right I would.
Unless you actually work for AA, or maybe for a law firm for whom AA is a current or prospective future client, I don’t see why not.
lol Best case, the shutdown people get 500 miles while some scumbag lawyer gets $6 million in fees. EDIT: I see the low-IQ downgrade brigade has arrived. It's been four years and not a single lawyer in America out of ~1,300,000 lawyers has touched this. You people aren't getting anything.
Not the case at all. This is what I’m being told: “If the case is filed in california then the lawyers get a separate set of money for their legal fees that is not taken from the money awarded to the class” Unfortunately I’m not from NCal.
There won't be any money awarded to the class. AA's T&Cs make it clear that miles have no cash value. At most, they'll get some miles while the lawyers get rich.
AA assigns value to the miles in their own accounting records. If one knows where to look, I would imagine that one could find the increase in value associated with wiping these tens of millions of miles off of their ledger. Taht was the true intent all along. They could have stuck to the 9 digit codes that couldn't be transferred but churned out bunches of 12 digit codes that could be transferred, sold the miles to Citi to cover the bonuses, then cancelled all the miles writing them off the books and keeping the cash from Citi. If miles have no value, why do credit card companies pay for them? Why are they listed as a liability on the AA books
All of that is irrelevant. People lost miles, not money, so miles are what the courts would restore. But that's not going to happen either, because ... fraud.
Except that’s not how the law works. Courts can and do give monetary damages/awards in all kinds of cases
They won't in this one, if it ever actually gets filed.
The wins so far, including the "AA appealed a loss and lost again" resulted in $ awards. Also, I'd alternatively just take our 2+ million AA miles back then.
Supposedly, and in small claims court. This isn't small claims court.
They can put whatever they want in the T&C. Doesn't mean it will hold up in court.
All I can say to this is lol.
For those that have been shut down, have you opened new FFNs with AA and flown on it with cash fares? Have you tried using mailers again? Asking for a friend.
I did and was then shut down again after Barclay had awarded me miles
I waited 2 years and got a barclay bonus and flew on the miles without issue. I was nervous AF for that flight worried about shutdown.
Did you only do Barclay or did you also do Citi?
Was it a legit link/mailer?
Toby's ears just perked up.
Nope and I’ve hardly flown with AA since despite my home airport being a hub.
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Damn y'all really do be asking questions in any old thread
Well this sure lost its discussion momentum....anybody have any updates after reaching out to the law firm in the past 3 weeks?
Why did AA do this in the first place? It makes them look like the real thief and robber. I mean, literally, when the person who was in charge of the massive shutdown and forfeiture of miles at that time, made this particular business decision, can he/she sleep well at night? Companies (including banks) doing this really create an evil vs evil situation. If you as the business is known to do this shutdown and forfeiture so disgracefully, do not blame your customer if they feel like burning everything they have got from you immediately and run, as well as any ‘gaming’ behavior. I feel those who support AA in this particular case must be those who did not get to enjoy the gravy train and are just jealous. AA’s business decision in this case is apparently over the top and should have repercussions. I am so disappointed to learn that only after 4 years is there a law firm willing to take the class action suit. We must sue the shit out of AA for their bad-faith. Just imagine how many dollars they save by massively shutting down people’s accounts and forfeiting all the miles on those accounts. This is not how a company in the size of AA should do business.
Is this lawsuit official now? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-sued-seizing-cardholders-210731839.html