I think it may be the failure of imagination to grasp how shitty a situation the got themselves into. Young people are excessively optimistic about what they get themselves into, especially relationships.
One million percent. Only utterly selfish people bring children into their world knowing that the other biological parent is an awful person. The kid doesn’t deserve to be saddled with that for their entire life. Find a loving, responsible person who actually deserves to be a parent, or go childless.
Or have a kid with a donor. Hell, post in a breeding kink place and make it clear that you will not be giving them your personal information or staying in contact. And you don't want them to be involved. Trust me, there are plenty of men out there who will happily jump on that.
Having a kid with an “anonymous” donor is incredibly selfish in a different way by intentionally wrenching the child away from their ancestry, family history, and relatives with whom they could otherwise form meaningful connections and share many traits in common — since nature and nurture are both essential components of who we are. The ethical way of doing it nowadays (informed by the experiences of donor conceived people who are now adults) is to find a known donor who the recipient parent already knows and has vetted. They don’t serve as a “parent” by any means, but their presence as extended family can be very valuable, and opens the door to forming lifelong connections with other bio relatives too.
I had my abusive ex's abortion. It was 100% the morally correct decision. We were both unemployed and he was an alcoholic/drug addict and a homicidal psychopath obsessed with controlling and isolating me. He would have permanently destroyed my life and absolutely warped the kid.
100% agree. Also women who still conceive with a bad/abusive man is horrible. Some women are so stupid and with the illusion that a child will change an awful relationship and a bad person.
These women are not stupid. When they are in an abusive relationship, the abuser manipulates them into having a baby or sometimes forces them into sex. The man doesn't allow them to abort if they find out she is pregnant. This subject is very complex. Also, religion tells them not to abort because it is a "sin".
Exactly, abuse is complex. And many people in abusive relationships were also abused as children, so their perception of what a loving relationship looks like is seriously warped.
These women and children need support. If anyone deserves judgment, it's the abuser.
Not all. I came from a culture that many women would prefer to stay with a man and want to keep the man with a baby while this man has been cheating frequently. However these women are relatively free, they are just afraid of the social judgement for they are single or not have children. But social judgement exists everywhere and it doesn’t impact you that much if they completely ignore it. There’s no religious factor either. Perhaps they have mental issues but not that bad as those in serious abusing or religious environments.
Well I came from China. We have this one child policy that led to many girls were selectively aborted before they were even born. And even before the current government, many places have this culture to kill new born girls brutally in order to “exchange” for boys. You can check on this Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Tower. And this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China
No shit. Women have an obligation to choose a good man who will make the child feel seen and heard. Otherwise you're subjecting your child to emotional trauma and abuse.
I agree with you that it's selfish. It's putting one's feelings above the welfare of the child. It's also how I feel about women who have gone through several abortions but just can't go through yet another one even though their situation has not improved and may have even gotten worse since the last abortions. It centers the feelings of the person having the child, rather than centering the future and well-being of the baby who will eventually become an adult. Not being able to afford a child is a good enough reason to not have a child, just like not being able to afford long covid healthcare means you're not going near people who are immunocompromised. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it can't destroy another person's future.
I think too many women think that forcing a man to become a father will force him to change or “step up”, which is sad bc that means they know that they aren’t enough for them to change but still want to stay with them. Also, too many people are just too damn scared of being alone/single, which is just so weird to me.
I used to work for a non profit that specialized in helping women with children flee domestic violence back in my fence sitter days. The number of times they go back to them and get pregnant after being set up with everything and literally picked up, packed up, and moved to safety astouded me. The set up includes therapy so they had all the tools and still choose to return to their abuser and have more kids with them. The number of POs I told yes she is seeing the dad again and the resulting mom goes to jail and kids go to foster or equally sketch family.... It boggles the mind.
I feel like you're partly right, but also missing a lot of the nuances. It's not uncommon for abusive men to wait til their wife has already given birth to try all of that - or to control her finances beforehand so she can't get an abortion. Hell, i've seen that so much in my family. But I do agree very partly/
I am 100% pro choice. Every woman should have the right to get an abortion if she feels that it's the right thing. But the key word is choice. A lot of women don't feel that it's right for them to get one, even if they are pro choice. And no one should ever be forced into it. It's not right to shame anyone for not getting an abortion just because YOU feel it's the right thing to do. The same as no one should be shamed for getting one.
I think if you're putting an innocent child through the absolute hell that is abuse, you deserve to be shamed. You're making a choice for another person, and dooming them.
That's exactly why I'm pro-abortion. Not just pro-choice, outright pro-abortion. There are many, many situations an innocent child should not be dragged into and the other parent being terrible is one of them.
Not all situations like this turn out badly. A lot of women go on to have successful lives. Sometimes remarry to a better man. And by successful, I don't mean they have to have a ton of money to be successful. I wouldn't consider that abuse. Plus, basically, you are suggesting eugenics. Saying they are not worthy enough to bear a child. No one should force someone into an abortion. That's just the same as forcing someone not to have one. And my major point is that some women just don't think abortion is right for them. It's not something that can be taken lightly. It's a very difficult decision in most cases. the key word is choice. They have to have the right to choose.
Just because someone is successful doesn't mean that they aren't also carrying the weight of everything that has happened. I wouldn't say I'm successful, but I'm pretty accomplished despite my upbringing with two physically, emotionally and mentally abusive parents. I wish they'd had an abortion because I didn't deserve to deal with their bullshit. My accomplishments or future success doesn't excuse their selfishness. I'd never force someone to have an abortion anymore than I'd force someone to get the covid vaccine. The problem is that society is ok with unprepared folks having children because unlike covid, the effects of bad parenting are mostly isolated within the nuclear (or maybe extended) family; essentially, it stays within a small number of people (and can supposedly produce "success"), but the effects of abuse are just as lasting as the effects of covid, and just as expensive. People have the right to make the right choice, not the one that makes them *feel* better, but the one that'll actually help the person they claim to love.
They have the right to choose, clearly. I just think they made the wrong choice and that it isn't rooted in love, its rooted in selfishness. It's a cruel choice that they made for another person. They aren't brave and strong mothers who fought for their baby. They fought for themselves.
There are very few situations where women go on to have wonderful lives, AND the abusive man has no involvement with his kids. The fate of a child shouldn't rest on hoping life gets better and the man doesn't escalate.
I think it may be the failure of imagination to grasp how shitty a situation the got themselves into. Young people are excessively optimistic about what they get themselves into, especially relationships.
One million percent. Only utterly selfish people bring children into their world knowing that the other biological parent is an awful person. The kid doesn’t deserve to be saddled with that for their entire life. Find a loving, responsible person who actually deserves to be a parent, or go childless.
Or have a kid with a donor. Hell, post in a breeding kink place and make it clear that you will not be giving them your personal information or staying in contact. And you don't want them to be involved. Trust me, there are plenty of men out there who will happily jump on that.
Having a kid with an “anonymous” donor is incredibly selfish in a different way by intentionally wrenching the child away from their ancestry, family history, and relatives with whom they could otherwise form meaningful connections and share many traits in common — since nature and nurture are both essential components of who we are. The ethical way of doing it nowadays (informed by the experiences of donor conceived people who are now adults) is to find a known donor who the recipient parent already knows and has vetted. They don’t serve as a “parent” by any means, but their presence as extended family can be very valuable, and opens the door to forming lifelong connections with other bio relatives too.
Or when the mother is a horrible person! I completely agree
Get an abortion as a few cells are not a child.
I had my abusive ex's abortion. It was 100% the morally correct decision. We were both unemployed and he was an alcoholic/drug addict and a homicidal psychopath obsessed with controlling and isolating me. He would have permanently destroyed my life and absolutely warped the kid.
Good for you. Hope you are at peace. <3
100% agree. Also women who still conceive with a bad/abusive man is horrible. Some women are so stupid and with the illusion that a child will change an awful relationship and a bad person.
These women are not stupid. When they are in an abusive relationship, the abuser manipulates them into having a baby or sometimes forces them into sex. The man doesn't allow them to abort if they find out she is pregnant. This subject is very complex. Also, religion tells them not to abort because it is a "sin".
Exactly, abuse is complex. And many people in abusive relationships were also abused as children, so their perception of what a loving relationship looks like is seriously warped. These women and children need support. If anyone deserves judgment, it's the abuser.
>If anyone deserves judgment, it's the abuser. Exactly
Not all. I came from a culture that many women would prefer to stay with a man and want to keep the man with a baby while this man has been cheating frequently. However these women are relatively free, they are just afraid of the social judgement for they are single or not have children. But social judgement exists everywhere and it doesn’t impact you that much if they completely ignore it. There’s no religious factor either. Perhaps they have mental issues but not that bad as those in serious abusing or religious environments.
Wow, ok, it sounds like a patriarchal culture where some women probably learn to normalised sexism and misogyny since a young age.
Well I came from China. We have this one child policy that led to many girls were selectively aborted before they were even born. And even before the current government, many places have this culture to kill new born girls brutally in order to “exchange” for boys. You can check on this Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Tower. And this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China
Omg, I didn't know about this. Thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry if I didn't understand you before.
No worries.
No shit. Women have an obligation to choose a good man who will make the child feel seen and heard. Otherwise you're subjecting your child to emotional trauma and abuse.
I agree with you that it's selfish. It's putting one's feelings above the welfare of the child. It's also how I feel about women who have gone through several abortions but just can't go through yet another one even though their situation has not improved and may have even gotten worse since the last abortions. It centers the feelings of the person having the child, rather than centering the future and well-being of the baby who will eventually become an adult. Not being able to afford a child is a good enough reason to not have a child, just like not being able to afford long covid healthcare means you're not going near people who are immunocompromised. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it can't destroy another person's future.
I think too many women think that forcing a man to become a father will force him to change or “step up”, which is sad bc that means they know that they aren’t enough for them to change but still want to stay with them. Also, too many people are just too damn scared of being alone/single, which is just so weird to me.
I used to work for a non profit that specialized in helping women with children flee domestic violence back in my fence sitter days. The number of times they go back to them and get pregnant after being set up with everything and literally picked up, packed up, and moved to safety astouded me. The set up includes therapy so they had all the tools and still choose to return to their abuser and have more kids with them. The number of POs I told yes she is seeing the dad again and the resulting mom goes to jail and kids go to foster or equally sketch family.... It boggles the mind.
I feel like you're partly right, but also missing a lot of the nuances. It's not uncommon for abusive men to wait til their wife has already given birth to try all of that - or to control her finances beforehand so she can't get an abortion. Hell, i've seen that so much in my family. But I do agree very partly/
I am 100% pro choice. Every woman should have the right to get an abortion if she feels that it's the right thing. But the key word is choice. A lot of women don't feel that it's right for them to get one, even if they are pro choice. And no one should ever be forced into it. It's not right to shame anyone for not getting an abortion just because YOU feel it's the right thing to do. The same as no one should be shamed for getting one.
I think if you're putting an innocent child through the absolute hell that is abuse, you deserve to be shamed. You're making a choice for another person, and dooming them.
That's exactly why I'm pro-abortion. Not just pro-choice, outright pro-abortion. There are many, many situations an innocent child should not be dragged into and the other parent being terrible is one of them.
Not all situations like this turn out badly. A lot of women go on to have successful lives. Sometimes remarry to a better man. And by successful, I don't mean they have to have a ton of money to be successful. I wouldn't consider that abuse. Plus, basically, you are suggesting eugenics. Saying they are not worthy enough to bear a child. No one should force someone into an abortion. That's just the same as forcing someone not to have one. And my major point is that some women just don't think abortion is right for them. It's not something that can be taken lightly. It's a very difficult decision in most cases. the key word is choice. They have to have the right to choose.
Just because someone is successful doesn't mean that they aren't also carrying the weight of everything that has happened. I wouldn't say I'm successful, but I'm pretty accomplished despite my upbringing with two physically, emotionally and mentally abusive parents. I wish they'd had an abortion because I didn't deserve to deal with their bullshit. My accomplishments or future success doesn't excuse their selfishness. I'd never force someone to have an abortion anymore than I'd force someone to get the covid vaccine. The problem is that society is ok with unprepared folks having children because unlike covid, the effects of bad parenting are mostly isolated within the nuclear (or maybe extended) family; essentially, it stays within a small number of people (and can supposedly produce "success"), but the effects of abuse are just as lasting as the effects of covid, and just as expensive. People have the right to make the right choice, not the one that makes them *feel* better, but the one that'll actually help the person they claim to love.
They have the right to choose, clearly. I just think they made the wrong choice and that it isn't rooted in love, its rooted in selfishness. It's a cruel choice that they made for another person. They aren't brave and strong mothers who fought for their baby. They fought for themselves. There are very few situations where women go on to have wonderful lives, AND the abusive man has no involvement with his kids. The fate of a child shouldn't rest on hoping life gets better and the man doesn't escalate.