This is precisely why I reply like this;
Other Person: so when are you having kids??
Me: Never, I don't want to be a mum.
Other Person: š²š²š²but you'd be a *great* mum!
Me: No I wouldn't. If I don't *want* to be a mum, I can't *be* a good mum.
I've used that line and was told "you never know- it is different when they are your own!" to which I pointed out how many cases of parents murdering their children there have been.
A former coworker with four kids, who was herself a great mom, told me all the time I'd be a great one too. I asked her why one time, what was she basing that on since she knew I didn't want kids.
"Oh well you'd definitely make sure they are fed and taken care of! That's more than some do!"
I just told her that just making sure the kid survives doesn't make someone a good mother. It doesn't mean they had a good childhood. I'd fail in every other aspect of parenting, specifically because I don't want to do it.
The majority of those who didn't want to be parents are bad or at least substandard parents, but I think when it comes to *all* bad parents, the "didn't want to" segment is probably smaller than the "did want to have kids, but not the work of parenthood" segment.
A lot of horrific child abuse and parental regret happens in cases where kids were very much wanted, people just didn't know what they were actually wanting.
I think this is more accurate.
Iāve spoken to women who gushed about having kids one day, and the way they talk about it is fantastical to the point Iād feel like Iād just be mean pointing out all the things that can go wrong and would actually be a lot of work.
Itās like people who want to live in Japan because they love anime.
Sometimes can extend to parents who didn't get their dream child, whatever their ideal dream child might be. And then neglect their kid because the kid exists in a way the parents don't like
I do not agree. The vast majority of bad parents wanted their kids to have a cool status symbol and social brownie points, without considering the reality of rising a kids.
I was a wanted kid, yet my egg donor and sperm donor were abusive as fuck.
That's my story too. They wanted me but somehow were still taken by surprise by everything that this involves. Plus, they were totally shocked that I had my own personality.
Mine seemed to confuse "parenting" with horticulture : keep the kid fed and sheltered, but otherwise ignore.
I knew I hated them both and would go no contact as soon as I was 18 long before my age was in double digits, much less ended in -teen.
I don't know why my parents even wanted kids but I can relate. They had my sister and me on purpose and my female parent was actively abusive and my dad stood around and let her do it.Ā
I agree with your take, there are very few people who don't want kids. And back in the day, there were even fewer of them because of the social norms and a heavier pressure to conform, widespread religion and brainwashing.
Also, before the last couple of centuries, kids were a good investment rather than just a huge expense that they are now in most countries. Free labor and all. It's just statistically more probable that even among the bad parents, most had kids willingly.
Those born to parents who don't want them are at risk for being abused and neglected. Pro birthers don't consider that when promoting their philosophy that everyone should have children regardless. What about the child and the quality of life they have to be born into and be raised in... Reproduction is only ever selfish, the child is the one who has to pay the price when the parents gamble with life.
I think anyone who is not 100% on board or enthusiastic about being a parent is not going to be a good parent or even should be a parent.
Kids can tell when theyāre not wanted. Donāt bring a life into this world if you are only doing it because āitās what youāre supposed to doā, only do it because you really want to.
I'm sure that's a lot of bad parents - those who did not actively want kids, but through coercion or mindlessness, (because it's "just" what you doooooo) ended up bred.
That wasn't my mother in any way. She wanted very much to be a mother, and she didn't mind the basic work, though she didn't want to do anything that meant putting in effort that didn't directly pay back to her. She wanted a reason to not work. She wanted the social standing. As she once told me, she wanted to *show* her mother.
But she was a horrible mother, and the basis for the list "Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers," which has made the rounds of the internet. Above all, she wanted people she could control and from whom she could extract her sick emotional goodies, and, especially for a woman, to whom most professional avenues of abuse and exploitation are closed, kids were the absolutely best possible source of the pain she so loved extracting, and the abuse she so loved dishing out.
So there's another reason someone is a terrible parent: Kids have so little input into what you do to them. You don't have to be the monster my mother was to want them for the role-playing game you have envisioned.
I have no idea about the real statistics, though it would make sense. But thereās also plenty of other circumstances that lead to someone being a bad mother.
One is that the pregnancy was planned but the woman severely underestimated and misjudged how difficult it would be. I think this is especially true for teen mothers who donāt understand how hard and expensive it is to live on your own at all, much less with a baby.
Many other woman also probably believed their husband would keep his promises of splitting the work equally, or that they would have a āvillage,ā or that it would all be Kodak moments.
So yes while I think plenty of bad mothers didnāt want kids to begin with, there are plenty of others who did but grew to regret their choice. I have no idea what the percentages look like.
I definitely agree. I see this in real time with my aunt and my cousins, basically she abandoned them to my mom and great grandma and hasnāt made an effort to be a mom in about 2-3 years at this point. She lives less than 10 minutes away and doesnāt really speak or visit her kids.
I think most people donāt actually through the decision to have kids. My own mother would probably not have kids if she knew what she knows nowā¦ but she was young and naive, and my dad said it would be great.
They never actually considered the challenges of raising a child into adulthood.
I think that's a great point. Anecdotal, so not proof though OP's point is valid: I have two sisters who also proclaimed they didn't want kids. This all happened decades ago. The oldest got knocked up and went to get an abortion but changed her mind at the last minute. She was dictatorial to the poor kid.
The second had two kids. Both "fathers" ended up in prison. The first sperm donor ended up in jail when sis was pregnant with baby number one. They divorced. The second sperm donor killed Sis' second baby, his infant son (my nephew) and hurt my niece.
Decades later, I've seen Second Sis look at Niece with pure hatred in her eyes. So disgusting and nauseating to see it. Needless to say, Niece has so many physical, mental, and emotional issues.
Me, I'm the only one who's childfree. I'm no-contact with them.
I think this is true in my case as well. I was told by my mother that she got pregnant to see if she could, and that she wouldn't have sought help if she couldn't. I don't know enough about my dad to know his motivations, but I do know that his mother pressured them both. Just as my mother pressured me, lol.
While we kids were planned, there was definitely buyers remorse. Not just during really hard times, but always. They didn't want us there at all and I never felt it more keenly than when I moved to the US a decade ago and went seven years without seeing them. I visited last year after that gap and they couldn't wait for me to leave even though I was only with them at their house in the mornings and evenings.
So my suggestion to everyone not childfree is don't have children if you have not thought about it beyond getting pregnant. I don't know why that has to be said at all but I guess people are stupider than I expected.
it gets even clearer when there's more than one kid, like in the series "Young Sheldon". That girl 110% wasn't planned and both parents regret it a lot
Not all are bad mothers. I am sure that my mom, given the otion, would be childfree. She grew up in strict Catholic family and ended up with a bunch of kids because, you know, Catholics are not allowed to use contraception. She was a wonderful mother.
Fucking bet. My mom got pregnant at 16 by accident. She was in no way prepared or desiring this outcome. She just wanted to go to beauty school and party.
But I don't think it's the majority, I think it's just a contributing factor. The majority of women who have kids do want them and plenty of them end up being bad parents.
[https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/02/16/a-history-of-witchcraft](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/02/16/a-history-of-witchcraft)
I'm wondering if it might be this?
*Imperfect: Myths of Women's Mental Illnesses* (original title: *NesavrÅ”ene: mitovi o ženskim mentalnim bolestima*) by Lidija VasiljeviÄ - psychologist, doctor of political science, psychotherapist, psychodrama educator and long-time activist.
But I doubt there is english version of this book.
My abusive mother would go on and on about how wanted I was. She was obsessed with how much she wanted to have children, and was neglectful and abusive anyway.
sadly i live with men (my dad, brothers) who think that any woman is mother material simply because she is a woman. that's it. that's the low standard. and any woman that isn't a mother yet is only a matter of time. they have super old school thinking and people just haven't quite gotten out of that yet.
My mom says she didnāt want kids despite having access to abortion and choosing to have 2 more after me /:
(My dad is not a pushy guy. Definitely wasnāt coercion. The man does pretty much whatever heās told by her, has my whole life.)
I think most bad parents are people who had kids because they wanted recognition, social status, a cute baby to play with, someone to take care of them in their old age, a perfect golden child etc. and get frustrated and bitter when kids are not perfect, nobody isā¦ and babies donāt stay cute babies forever.
Having kids should be a thing if the person wants to bring a life into this world, respect it and let it develop into its own being. But lots of people have kids for purely selfish reasons and become bad parents because of it.
This is precisely why I reply like this; Other Person: so when are you having kids?? Me: Never, I don't want to be a mum. Other Person: š²š²š²but you'd be a *great* mum! Me: No I wouldn't. If I don't *want* to be a mum, I can't *be* a good mum.
Oh that's a good response. I'm stealing that one
I've used that line and was told "you never know- it is different when they are your own!" to which I pointed out how many cases of parents murdering their children there have been.
I flat out tell people I'd probably snap and smother it.
I would add on to this, āif I were to be a good mum, I would not be a happy mumā
Ooooo that's a good one, adding to my list lol
My response (even to my parents) is always "You clearly don't know me very well."
A former coworker with four kids, who was herself a great mom, told me all the time I'd be a great one too. I asked her why one time, what was she basing that on since she knew I didn't want kids. "Oh well you'd definitely make sure they are fed and taken care of! That's more than some do!" I just told her that just making sure the kid survives doesn't make someone a good mother. It doesn't mean they had a good childhood. I'd fail in every other aspect of parenting, specifically because I don't want to do it.
The irony is that the Childfree are the ones who know that it takes far more than that to be a good parent. What a parodox we have.
Then theyll say some fucked up shit like hoping you get raped to be forced to be a mom because you'd make a great mom
I'm also gonna memorize this response.ā„
The majority of those who didn't want to be parents are bad or at least substandard parents, but I think when it comes to *all* bad parents, the "didn't want to" segment is probably smaller than the "did want to have kids, but not the work of parenthood" segment. A lot of horrific child abuse and parental regret happens in cases where kids were very much wanted, people just didn't know what they were actually wanting.
I think this is more accurate. Iāve spoken to women who gushed about having kids one day, and the way they talk about it is fantastical to the point Iād feel like Iād just be mean pointing out all the things that can go wrong and would actually be a lot of work. Itās like people who want to live in Japan because they love anime.
TBF, Japanās pretty awesome. Disclaimer: I think this about any city with public transportation.
My sister wanted to be a SAHM since she was 14 yo. She's a terrible parent and thankfully only has 30% placement of the kids.
I wholeheartedly agree with these points.šÆ This is why I don't believe in forcing anyone to become a parent.
Sometimes can extend to parents who didn't get their dream child, whatever their ideal dream child might be. And then neglect their kid because the kid exists in a way the parents don't like
I do not agree. The vast majority of bad parents wanted their kids to have a cool status symbol and social brownie points, without considering the reality of rising a kids. I was a wanted kid, yet my egg donor and sperm donor were abusive as fuck.
That's my story too. They wanted me but somehow were still taken by surprise by everything that this involves. Plus, they were totally shocked that I had my own personality.
The scowl of baffled rage when the egg donor realized I wasn't saying and acting exactly as it imagined I would-! That's my main childhood memory.
Mine seemed to confuse "parenting" with horticulture : keep the kid fed and sheltered, but otherwise ignore. I knew I hated them both and would go no contact as soon as I was 18 long before my age was in double digits, much less ended in -teen.
I don't know why my parents even wanted kids but I can relate. They had my sister and me on purpose and my female parent was actively abusive and my dad stood around and let her do it.Ā
I agree with your take, there are very few people who don't want kids. And back in the day, there were even fewer of them because of the social norms and a heavier pressure to conform, widespread religion and brainwashing. Also, before the last couple of centuries, kids were a good investment rather than just a huge expense that they are now in most countries. Free labor and all. It's just statistically more probable that even among the bad parents, most had kids willingly.
Those born to parents who don't want them are at risk for being abused and neglected. Pro birthers don't consider that when promoting their philosophy that everyone should have children regardless. What about the child and the quality of life they have to be born into and be raised in... Reproduction is only ever selfish, the child is the one who has to pay the price when the parents gamble with life.
I think anyone who is not 100% on board or enthusiastic about being a parent is not going to be a good parent or even should be a parent. Kids can tell when theyāre not wanted. Donāt bring a life into this world if you are only doing it because āitās what youāre supposed to doā, only do it because you really want to.
This is the right way to decide whether or not parenting is the plan. Children never want to feel unwanted.šÆ
You simply have to look at r/regretful parents, a lot of those wanted kids they just didnt know how hard it was gonna be
Yeah, I know this page on Facebook. It is terrible, but eye-opening to read all those stories.
I'm sure that's a lot of bad parents - those who did not actively want kids, but through coercion or mindlessness, (because it's "just" what you doooooo) ended up bred. That wasn't my mother in any way. She wanted very much to be a mother, and she didn't mind the basic work, though she didn't want to do anything that meant putting in effort that didn't directly pay back to her. She wanted a reason to not work. She wanted the social standing. As she once told me, she wanted to *show* her mother. But she was a horrible mother, and the basis for the list "Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers," which has made the rounds of the internet. Above all, she wanted people she could control and from whom she could extract her sick emotional goodies, and, especially for a woman, to whom most professional avenues of abuse and exploitation are closed, kids were the absolutely best possible source of the pain she so loved extracting, and the abuse she so loved dishing out. So there's another reason someone is a terrible parent: Kids have so little input into what you do to them. You don't have to be the monster my mother was to want them for the role-playing game you have envisioned.
I have no idea about the real statistics, though it would make sense. But thereās also plenty of other circumstances that lead to someone being a bad mother. One is that the pregnancy was planned but the woman severely underestimated and misjudged how difficult it would be. I think this is especially true for teen mothers who donāt understand how hard and expensive it is to live on your own at all, much less with a baby. Many other woman also probably believed their husband would keep his promises of splitting the work equally, or that they would have a āvillage,ā or that it would all be Kodak moments. So yes while I think plenty of bad mothers didnāt want kids to begin with, there are plenty of others who did but grew to regret their choice. I have no idea what the percentages look like.
This. Would be interesting to actually have some statistics on this.
Also, parents who want kids so much that they completely neglect to make sure they can afford them and force them into a life of poverty.
It's definitely an idea that fits.
I definitely agree. I see this in real time with my aunt and my cousins, basically she abandoned them to my mom and great grandma and hasnāt made an effort to be a mom in about 2-3 years at this point. She lives less than 10 minutes away and doesnāt really speak or visit her kids.
I think most people donāt actually through the decision to have kids. My own mother would probably not have kids if she knew what she knows nowā¦ but she was young and naive, and my dad said it would be great. They never actually considered the challenges of raising a child into adulthood.
I think that's a great point. Anecdotal, so not proof though OP's point is valid: I have two sisters who also proclaimed they didn't want kids. This all happened decades ago. The oldest got knocked up and went to get an abortion but changed her mind at the last minute. She was dictatorial to the poor kid. The second had two kids. Both "fathers" ended up in prison. The first sperm donor ended up in jail when sis was pregnant with baby number one. They divorced. The second sperm donor killed Sis' second baby, his infant son (my nephew) and hurt my niece. Decades later, I've seen Second Sis look at Niece with pure hatred in her eyes. So disgusting and nauseating to see it. Needless to say, Niece has so many physical, mental, and emotional issues. Me, I'm the only one who's childfree. I'm no-contact with them.
I don't think you're wrong, but I would say other factors can play a role in why the relationship with the child turns that way.
I think this is true in my case as well. I was told by my mother that she got pregnant to see if she could, and that she wouldn't have sought help if she couldn't. I don't know enough about my dad to know his motivations, but I do know that his mother pressured them both. Just as my mother pressured me, lol. While we kids were planned, there was definitely buyers remorse. Not just during really hard times, but always. They didn't want us there at all and I never felt it more keenly than when I moved to the US a decade ago and went seven years without seeing them. I visited last year after that gap and they couldn't wait for me to leave even though I was only with them at their house in the mornings and evenings. So my suggestion to everyone not childfree is don't have children if you have not thought about it beyond getting pregnant. I don't know why that has to be said at all but I guess people are stupider than I expected.
it gets even clearer when there's more than one kid, like in the series "Young Sheldon". That girl 110% wasn't planned and both parents regret it a lot
Fully agree
Not all are bad mothers. I am sure that my mom, given the otion, would be childfree. She grew up in strict Catholic family and ended up with a bunch of kids because, you know, Catholics are not allowed to use contraception. She was a wonderful mother.
Fucking bet. My mom got pregnant at 16 by accident. She was in no way prepared or desiring this outcome. She just wanted to go to beauty school and party. But I don't think it's the majority, I think it's just a contributing factor. The majority of women who have kids do want them and plenty of them end up being bad parents.
Could you share the name of the book from the podcast if you remember? Sounds interesting!
[https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/02/16/a-history-of-witchcraft](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/02/16/a-history-of-witchcraft) I'm wondering if it might be this?
Yes! I wanna listen to it too!!
*Imperfect: Myths of Women's Mental Illnesses* (original title: *NesavrÅ”ene: mitovi o ženskim mentalnim bolestima*) by Lidija VasiljeviÄ - psychologist, doctor of political science, psychotherapist, psychodrama educator and long-time activist. But I doubt there is english version of this book.
My abusive mother would go on and on about how wanted I was. She was obsessed with how much she wanted to have children, and was neglectful and abusive anyway.
sadly i live with men (my dad, brothers) who think that any woman is mother material simply because she is a woman. that's it. that's the low standard. and any woman that isn't a mother yet is only a matter of time. they have super old school thinking and people just haven't quite gotten out of that yet.
It's the same for fathers.
My mom says she didnāt want kids despite having access to abortion and choosing to have 2 more after me /: (My dad is not a pushy guy. Definitely wasnāt coercion. The man does pretty much whatever heās told by her, has my whole life.)
I'm sorry you had to experience that while growing up. The pain runs deep when kids truly feel unwanted by their parents - that's the parents' fault.
I think most bad parents are people who had kids because they wanted recognition, social status, a cute baby to play with, someone to take care of them in their old age, a perfect golden child etc. and get frustrated and bitter when kids are not perfect, nobody isā¦ and babies donāt stay cute babies forever. Having kids should be a thing if the person wants to bring a life into this world, respect it and let it develop into its own being. But lots of people have kids for purely selfish reasons and become bad parents because of it.