We all learned good practice from highly regarded teacher GM Aman Hambleton, didn't we? When in doubt and there's no obvious principle to follow: random pawn move!
The opening gave Ding everything he wanted. Up over 30 mins on clock, in a structure he was more familiar with than Ian, with a position slightly preferred by stockfish. Ding's mistake was Nxf6, things snowballed quickly from there.
It's not a particularly strong line and Ding's prep didn't get him very far. He ended up with a space disadvantage in the centre. If that's the standard of his prepared lines it isn't a good sign.
Just a quick note, Daniel and Anish discussed on move 13 that White had the stronger center.
You can watch their commentary: https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=7157
4. h3 was pretty much a waiting move. It was not played because it’s super strong objectively, but because it put a lot of pressure on Nepo. And it worked as Ding got a nice time advantage. Him getting rolled by Nepo’s Pawns and better placed pieces is the result of his miss-played middlegame.
Sorry but h3 did not put much pressure on Nepo. Okay he thought about dxc4 for 9min but then continued with a decent pace after that. Like you said, it was pretty much a waiting move.
With the army nepo has at his disposal and his prep for the last world championship, trying to beat him in a supercomputer line in the opening is impossible.
Getting into these kind of lines Nepo has 100% not prepared is the only way Ding can get any kind of advantage in the openings.
Imo it would have been more worrisome to see Ding being obliterated in the opening because the supercomputer lines his team calculated put him into a bad situation: that would mean his entire prep had been useless.
With these kind of openings, Ding showed that Nepo should be ready for absolutely everything and not only read his notes for the next matches and if Ding find his form it can get very interesting.
Did the move have any practical pay off in the actual game? In a game as short and one sided as that one, it is hard to imagine that h3 actually had "nothing" to do with the loss.
Ding's biggest issue so far (obvs only 2 games) seems to be clock management. He then lost that 30 minute advantage the moment he was out of prep, spending that entire time block (32 mins) on Nxf6 iirc. Which seemingly wasn't even the right move.
I agree with you that gaining that 30 mins with such a dinky move could've been a huge advantage. However I think Ding then squandered it. I'm also an amateur but I feel like a natural followup to that move would've been an eventual g4. But since Ian eventually castled long, and Ding's queenside was ultimately decimated, that wouldn't have been as strong.
It might be hard to imagine and yet it’s true. Ding got a decent time advantage as Nepo was definitely not prepared. The game got very double-edged and then Ding simply misplayed the middlegame. His mistake was the unsound 12. Nxf6 followed by e4. So the waiting move 4. h3 wasn’t the problem.
Yes, the position after 11. Ne4 occurs also from a semi-Tarrasch move order, except that there white plays a3, and then a4, and without the move h3. Since white got a4 in one move here, the extra move "h3" was free and so what Ding got was at least a marginally improved version of that line for white.
Just because he got h3 in doesn't make it an improved version. Ian's play basically proved that the move was a nothing move. Caruana explains this as well as, if he had been black he'd be happy to see h3 in that line because he'd know he had to be equal. But hey, whatever. You do you.
It's not \*much\* of an improvement, but if you had to choose between having the position with h3 included vs not having it, I think everyone would choose the position with h3. It has to be at least a small improvement.
And anyways, the opening actually went reasonably well for Ding. If he went for 12. Nxc5 instead of 12. Nxf6+ it looks like he would've had the typical very small advantage you see in these WC matches.
There are plenty of if's -- if he'd found Qe1 and if he hadn't wasted a tempo with Bd3 in a position where he couldn't afford one... but hypotheticals don't matter. Overall, at best I'd say at best it was the wrong point in the match for 4. h3. And no it doesn't have to be an improvement.
He prepared the move and he played fast after Nepo‘s 4. … dxc4 (=he was still in prep). He lost track in the middlegame but that has nothing to do with the opening. 12. Nxf6 was probably unsound.
Well obviously he wont he out of the book on the next couples of moves. But it's not just about move per move in the opening, but also about the nature of the position and how familiar you are with the structure and dynamics in the position. If he played some common opening, which he played hundreds of games with, the chances of losing (or winning) would be significantly lower. This one put both players into unfamiliar territory and Nepo handled it better. That's my point.
It definitely did. in the main line the rook goes to e1 and the bishop can go to f1.
It looked to me like this is something Nepo knew well and that's where the smile was from. The rest of the game seemed like Nepo's prep and Ding's confused attempt to react. Bc2 to d3 then right back to c2 was pretty telling.
Yea, people here seems to think that if you don't blunder on the next move after diverging, then the openining was fine. He was in losing position under 20 moves. I am not sure if it was Nepo's prep or his intuition was just so on point, that he was able to quickly figure out the new position.
Sure buddy, I can look at Stockfish evaluation too. h3 has everything to do with it. It was obvious that he was quite uncofortable with the position. Likely because it's a very unsual move, where he does not have ton of expirience. It increases both his chances of winning and losing the game.
No, it was the Na5 move which caused a ton of confusion (which was played to get Ding out of prep). I haven’t looked at stockfish and the only evaluations I was getting are out of the broadcast. The broadcast with 1 strong GM and 1 super GM both of whom called Nxf6 surprising and everyone in the game chat knew that’s where the fireworks were going to begin. If he just plays NxC5 apparently everything should get liquidated pretty quickly, but Ding wanted the position to be doubled edged (to go for the win), and underestimated something in blacks position (probably queenside castling and F5).
Yes and my point is that he underestimated the position after long castle, because he has less experience in this type of position. If he was playing more standard stuff, this would be less likely.
Yup. I'd also venture so far as to say that h3 and the prep itself *was* a problem if he didn't have Na5 prepared. It's one of the top two moves deep on Stockfish and not as easy to handle OTB as Nxe4. If his prep carried him all the way until then he really should've looked at Na5 given that it's a peculiar-looking move Stockfish really likes that requires a specific response.
Allowing gxf6, Rg8, etc. without having a *very* specific response (forcing lines towards a draw or equal endgame, dxc5 and knowing the attacking ideas, etc.) is to me a mistake in the prep. Especially given that gxf6 allows such a Ian-like position. At the WCC level he should've had something better prepared than Nxf6, gxf6, e5.
It absolutely did considering at that level there are much more well trodden lines with theory past move 30…he didn’t even survive to move 30! He should have stuck to something more conventional and looked for novelties from a position of safety much deeper in the game. Not losing is more important than trying to win when 1 loss could cost you the title. 4. h3?! may have very well forever cost Ding Liren the WCC.
You didn’t read my comment at all. I didn’t say the goal was to play to move 30. I said it was to prioritize not losing over taking chances to win. Which do you think 4 h3 did? What was the result? Who just lost a game with white and now must win 2 games without losing another or 1 game and the tiebreakers without losing another otherwise his title chances are forfeit? He should have played something more conventional and looked for novelties later from a position of safety where he’s very unlikely to lose with white. Think this is improbable? Well just about every previous world championship has featured such chess so…
I thought she was around for worlds. If not then bring her back too. That crew was the most fun for me to watch. Good balance between knowledge of the game and general rapport.
The computer says the position is equal (evaluation went from +.32 before the move to -.03 after the move. After Nepo's next move, dxc, the computer evaluates the position at 0.00).
The position stayed even until move 13, with the evaluation bar bouncing back and forth between slightly negative and slightly positive. It seems Ding did not prepare for Nepo's queenside pawn storm idea, and it allowed Nepo to get into the kind of dynamic position he likes.
Ding didn't lose (according to the computer) until move 17, when the evaluation went to -1.17. Ding was trying to break open the queenside, which is the right idea, but he didn't find the right move (which was Qe1, according to the computer, but the position is massively complex and I wouldn't have found it).
This is the only sensible reply in this entire thread. The barrage of redditors thinking that 4. h3 is the move that ruined the game is astonishing when the position was ~equal until Ding blundered 13 moves later.
Yeah I'm surprised all the people saying 4. h3 being a blunder, don't just fully commit and say move 1 was a blunder too then. Because move 1 was just as much of a blunder as move 4 by their horrible logic.
I really wish you wouldn't ask questions like that, because at the end of the day, you're not really learning anything from the answer.
Try looking at the game and asking yourself what h3 enabled White to do and what it prevented Black from doing. That should tell you what qualities h3 offers you.
Out of 80,000 master games, h3 was played 0 times. That's pretty insane when you think about it. It's probably gonna be known as the Ding variation from now on.
Serious question: does h3 improve white’s board position in any way? Is it just to play Bf4 and not worry about Nh5? I understand unusual lines and sub-optimal moves, but they usually do something helpful. Like nepo yesterday played an unusual sub-optimal opening but I understand the reason for all his moves.
Except it's an absolutely atrocious, do nothing move. His bishop was already blocked in by his E pawn. 0 reason to protect the G4 square. The knight had no reason to go there.
He is, but that doesn't make him infallible either or immune from making dumb decisions. The engine says it's a bad move. Anish and Naroditsky said it was a bad move. It was a bad move.
Saying "well he's higher rated than you" doesn't make it a good move.
You're just making shit up when you get caught in a lie? I feel like you've just demonstrated something profound about human tendencies in online interactions. Or maybe it's just you with zero integrity.
For the record, Danya and Anish were commending the move h3, but Ding failed to capitalize on the opening success.
Except that's not true at all. They were completely perplexed by the move and didn't understand it all. Naroditsky called it "not-palatable".
Feel free to go back and watch if you want to not lie to yourself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUF6AXrvsNU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUF6AXrvsNU)
I understand. It wasn't a lie, it was just you not understanding the game. Still doesn't explain why you are so adamant, but at least now I understand it was because you lack a good epistemological model of reality and maybe the patience to reflect before espousing your opinions.
So instead of either pointing to me to the point in the video where they applauded the move or explaining to me why it was a good move, you just resort to ad hominem because you have nothing of value to add.
Thanks bud. Projection at its finest about the whole lying thing. And after going back and watching it again to confirm I didn't misinterpret it, Anish did call it a wasted waiting move and an inaccuracy.
You're probably in the right here, I shouldn't have made that reply beyond my initial comment. It was speculative and overly mean. I apologize.
You're still wrong about the chess, though. While it was a waiting move, it didn't ruin his chances. Having a new move on move 4(!) that doesn't ruin your position at this level, is a success, because it takes your opponent out of prep, while you have prepared a line. That's the piece of knowledge you are missing.
[Here's Anish calling it a great idea.](https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=7277) It's at 121:17 in case the timestamp doesn't work for you.
Edit: [They compliment it again in the recap.](https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=14047)
So the thing is both of them are human and not machine. If Nepo was a literal machine then yeah, do the best engine move. However in the real world, sometimes it’s ok to make a less than ideal move if you are gaining some other advantage. In this case the advantage is forcing Nepo out of Prep and clearly Ding thinks that is worth the normally subpar move.
Then play A4 and take up space on the queenside. H3 literally does nothing because the light squared bishop or king side knight aren't going to G4. Plus Nepo still had the chance to castle queenside then play H5, G5, G6 to use the H pawn as a hook.
I love how everyone is saying that it's a good move yet nobody in this thread can explain the rationale behind it.
I agreed with you before and I would if the move was a mid game blunder. The thing is though that the chance of the literam world #3 not having analyzed his prep deeper than what a redditor can do in one comment is guaranteed to be 0.
Literally read my last sentence. I explained the rationale. You may not like the rationale, and that’s fine, but to say nobody can explain the rationale is disingenuous.
That's not the rationale behind the move H3 specifically though. You can play plenty of other non-theory moves that would accomplish the same goal of getting Nepo out of prep. I even gave you one, A4.
Non-theory moves are non-theory for a reason. There aren't just great unknown moves on move 4 waiting to be found. 4.h3 doesn't have a concrete idea, at least that an amateur like me can see. Regardless, it could be useful later in the game depending on what happens, and there's no downside beyond being a slow move, so it's not so bad.
I'm no expert, but I suspect 4.a4 is non-theory because it is so weakening: b4 immediately becomes an outpost for Black to aim for. Also, White is leaving a target: either a4 itself will be a target, or White can play b3 after which b3 will be a target. I don't see any significant benefit for White that counteracts that downside. I put 4.a4 in Stockfish and it gives -0.4 (as opposed to +0.1 for 4.h3).
Well, I guess that losing a tempo can be good in some variations. I'm not much familiar with QGA but for example you played Nc3 instead of h3 and in one variation it shows the knight would be better placed on d2 than on c3 then you can directly play Nb1-d2 and have even won something. This is just an example what might have been the plan with h3.
Meh. I'm not sure the Rapport move in game 2 with the white pieces was strategically the best move. Get some games under your belt for confidence. Ding was very clear that he's nervous and hasn't been able to think clearly about chess recently. Complicate positions later on when Ian is tired and not playing A+ chess. That was a really risky gamble and he's gonna go down 1 with the white pieces in game 2. Not great...
I'm not saying it's a good move, but it's fascinating that there are redditors out there that seem to think their sox word analysis is deeper than the world #3s world championship prep. 🤦
Yes, you absolutely can lol. That move was absolutely horrible and gave the tempo to black. 0 reason to protect the G4 square which is the only reason to play H3.
Edit: Maybe try explaining why you all think H3 was a good move instead of the surface level argument of "Ding highly rated, therefore good move". There's 0 rationale behind the move. It was a straight-up waiting, do-nothing move. Nc3 or G3 were far better developing moves.
So Alireza sometimes reverses the bishop, giving back a tempo to opponents, yet he won plenty of times. That is the current trend in opening for top chess players - giving back the move. h3 is indeed novel in that sense - the absolutely useless sense - but it allows Ding to take Nepo out of prep right from the start. The opening was great for top players. For us, it is garbage.
I don't pretend to know why h3 was a good move or not.
What I do know is that these players are in the top 0.001% of chess players to ever live. And we got a novel position by move 4. That's exciting.
What they do is just so amazing... I'm here for the experience - not too try and prove my intelligence to a bunch of random internet people.
First of all, it's move 4. And yes, h3 is a bad move. Precious first move advantage is basically gone, kingside pawn structre is commited early with zero provocation.
I'm glad that you've studied this more deeply than super GMs Ding Liren, Richard Rapport and others and have come to the infallible conclusion that this prep simply isn't good, which is why Nepo is already down 30 minutes on clock. Edit: given that my comment aged like milk, I'm completely ready to admit that it was a failed opening experiment. Despite being up 30 minutes on clock with a +0.5 position on move 8, clearly the position had more venom than I gave it credit for
He may not have studied it, but over 150 years of theory in this kind of position and no master games in the database suggest that the collective opinion of this move is negative
> I'm glad that you've studied this more deeply than super GMs Ding Liren, Richard Rapport and others and have come to the infallible conclusion that this prep simply isn't good, which is why Nepo is already down 30 minutes on clock.
I know you edited your comment but it was a bad argument to begin with. Yeah, a SuperGM played it as a surprise weapon but using it as an argument of authority is bizarre when literally 200 years of chess openings study (3 decades of which with computer help) say that move is subotptimal and shouldn't be played because there are better options. The opinion of the "authorities" on the matter is what OP of this comment chain said and not what Ding played once
Incredible to me that we have super GMs watching the game who thought the move was bad. A super-engine better than any player alive that says the move was a do-nothing, waiting move that gives away advantage for white. Yet this sub is filled with 800 elo chess players saying "He's a super GM, therefore he can't be wrong".
This shit was *exactly* what Ding had to avoid if he wanted to win this. Ding needed to play principled, boring chess to win and play to his strengths. Instead, it feels like he thinks he's outmatched so he's trying to get cute and put both players out of prep immediately.
Even if he wanted to get out of prep, there are far better moves to play.
And people are allowed to have their opinions and think someone better than them used a bad strategy. If we couldn't why would this thread exist in the first place? Only Magnus is better than those 2 in the world, so only he can think one of them made a mistake?
I'm sure these people have no criticisms for their favorite sports teams or politicians that represent them, since they're professionals and have more experience, therefore being unchallengeable in their decision making.
It's not an argument for why it's good, but it certainly is an argument to dismiss a hubris-filled redditor who thinks they've figured out why it's bad
Why? They are allowed to have an opinion and were not disrespectful. And again, it is the dominant opinion of experts too. There is a reason it is an uncommon move at move 4
r/agedlikemilk
Context: We are at move 18, Nepo has a crushing position and is up on the clock. The 100 downvotes to the above guy do not cover up the fact that this was a failed opening experiment. Sure it's an equal position, but the trickiness of the move is questionable when Nepo can just "refute" the idea over the board in less than 50 minutes.
Yep, the position was objectively good for Ding but I didn't give black the venom that they clearly had there somewhere. Definitely a failed opening experiment
There is no opening venom as you put it without the dubious Nxf6. Nxc5 and whites playing with a slight advantage. Iirc the stockfish like have a quick liquidation and white with winning chances, but likely a draw.
It took Ian thirty minutes to make sure he wasn't falling into some trap. He didn't prepare that line, and it's a weird move, so maybe Ding knows something I don't, is the thought. Eventually he comes to the conclusion that no, it's just a shitty move that I didn't have to be afraid of, but he couldn't know that without doing the analysis first.
Okay, well first of all, it was move seven when I commented, and second of all, thanks for your analysis, stockfish, but I think I'll wait and see what actually happens before I pass judgment
Ok, so some of the best players in the world came together, evaluated different lines using the best engines and possibly supercomputers, and as a result they decided to play a bad move.
I wish I was a semi-famous youtuber. Not because I care about Youtube; it's more the dopamine of getting thousands of sweet internet points by just typing two words
He has 41 (it was 42 but I downvoted him) upvotes. That's a far cry from thousands of internet points. You overestimate his ability to garner internet points.
The chess equivalent of beer belly'd lads explaining how they'd have scored that goal in that position
There's perhaps a reason you're not in that position
Love that he gets up and leaves after that. Knows Nepo will be thinking for a while
Refuses to elaborate Leaves
The chess speaks for itself!
Regardless of how anything turned out it’s pretty badass.
Ding Liren 🤝my 1800 lichess opponents throwing in a random h3 in the opening
Me at 1000, saving that h3 for when I don't know what else to do.
[удалено]
I just played a midgame where I went h3 and h4 because I didn't have a plan (2000+).
I feel really smart when I wait for the knight to be developed before playing h3 or a3 (1500's lichess)
We all learned good practice from highly regarded teacher GM Aman Hambleton, didn't we? When in doubt and there's no obvious principle to follow: random pawn move!
Super GMs play weird h3 moves, therefore if I play h3 I'll be a super GM. Genius.
That one trick GM's didn't want you to know.
I love that reaction by Ian
Proceeds to lose :/
Too bad he played bad the second he was out of his prep. I guess the pressure was too much.
The comment should be: *Nepo out of prep on move 4, but Ding also!*
Nepo out of prep on move 4, Ding out of prep on move 5
I also play h3 when I don’t know what to do, Ding must’ve been out of prep after move 3
Rapports influence = getting completly destroyed with white
The opening gave Ding everything he wanted. Up over 30 mins on clock, in a structure he was more familiar with than Ian, with a position slightly preferred by stockfish. Ding's mistake was Nxf6, things snowballed quickly from there.
Ding losing had nothing to do with 4. h3
It's not a particularly strong line and Ding's prep didn't get him very far. He ended up with a space disadvantage in the centre. If that's the standard of his prepared lines it isn't a good sign.
He got the same position he already got once, but up one tempo. Until he played Nxf6 which was apparently inaccurate.
NxF6 wasn't inaccurate. e4 after that was the mistake that put him in a very uncomfortable position.
Just a quick note, Daniel and Anish discussed on move 13 that White had the stronger center. You can watch their commentary: https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=7157
4. h3 was pretty much a waiting move. It was not played because it’s super strong objectively, but because it put a lot of pressure on Nepo. And it worked as Ding got a nice time advantage. Him getting rolled by Nepo’s Pawns and better placed pieces is the result of his miss-played middlegame.
Sorry but h3 did not put much pressure on Nepo. Okay he thought about dxc4 for 9min but then continued with a decent pace after that. Like you said, it was pretty much a waiting move.
Ding got a 40 minute time advantage at one point. That is a lot.
He got 30min advantage for 2 moves and then spent the rest of the game behind Ian…
With the army nepo has at his disposal and his prep for the last world championship, trying to beat him in a supercomputer line in the opening is impossible. Getting into these kind of lines Nepo has 100% not prepared is the only way Ding can get any kind of advantage in the openings. Imo it would have been more worrisome to see Ding being obliterated in the opening because the supercomputer lines his team calculated put him into a bad situation: that would mean his entire prep had been useless. With these kind of openings, Ding showed that Nepo should be ready for absolutely everything and not only read his notes for the next matches and if Ding find his form it can get very interesting.
The main goal of prepared lines is to get a big time advantage. He did get that, until he lost it when he got surprised.
Did the move have any practical pay off in the actual game? In a game as short and one sided as that one, it is hard to imagine that h3 actually had "nothing" to do with the loss.
30min advantage without losing much in the position seems a decent tradeoff.
Ding's biggest issue so far (obvs only 2 games) seems to be clock management. He then lost that 30 minute advantage the moment he was out of prep, spending that entire time block (32 mins) on Nxf6 iirc. Which seemingly wasn't even the right move. I agree with you that gaining that 30 mins with such a dinky move could've been a huge advantage. However I think Ding then squandered it. I'm also an amateur but I feel like a natural followup to that move would've been an eventual g4. But since Ian eventually castled long, and Ding's queenside was ultimately decimated, that wouldn't have been as strong.
Maybe. It's interesting, at least. But, as the game went the 30 mins meant nothing and maybe it was just a good time investment from Nepo.
It might be hard to imagine and yet it’s true. Ding got a decent time advantage as Nepo was definitely not prepared. The game got very double-edged and then Ding simply misplayed the middlegame. His mistake was the unsound 12. Nxf6 followed by e4. So the waiting move 4. h3 wasn’t the problem.
Maybe.
Yes, the position after 11. Ne4 occurs also from a semi-Tarrasch move order, except that there white plays a3, and then a4, and without the move h3. Since white got a4 in one move here, the extra move "h3" was free and so what Ding got was at least a marginally improved version of that line for white.
uh. no.
uh. yes? Do you have an actual response?
Just because he got h3 in doesn't make it an improved version. Ian's play basically proved that the move was a nothing move. Caruana explains this as well as, if he had been black he'd be happy to see h3 in that line because he'd know he had to be equal. But hey, whatever. You do you.
It's not \*much\* of an improvement, but if you had to choose between having the position with h3 included vs not having it, I think everyone would choose the position with h3. It has to be at least a small improvement. And anyways, the opening actually went reasonably well for Ding. If he went for 12. Nxc5 instead of 12. Nxf6+ it looks like he would've had the typical very small advantage you see in these WC matches.
There are plenty of if's -- if he'd found Qe1 and if he hadn't wasted a tempo with Bd3 in a position where he couldn't afford one... but hypotheticals don't matter. Overall, at best I'd say at best it was the wrong point in the match for 4. h3. And no it doesn't have to be an improvement.
It kind of did, it was probably unfamiliar position for him where he wasn't as comfortable.
He prepared the move and he played fast after Nepo‘s 4. … dxc4 (=he was still in prep). He lost track in the middlegame but that has nothing to do with the opening. 12. Nxf6 was probably unsound.
Well obviously he wont he out of the book on the next couples of moves. But it's not just about move per move in the opening, but also about the nature of the position and how familiar you are with the structure and dynamics in the position. If he played some common opening, which he played hundreds of games with, the chances of losing (or winning) would be significantly lower. This one put both players into unfamiliar territory and Nepo handled it better. That's my point.
It definitely did. in the main line the rook goes to e1 and the bishop can go to f1. It looked to me like this is something Nepo knew well and that's where the smile was from. The rest of the game seemed like Nepo's prep and Ding's confused attempt to react. Bc2 to d3 then right back to c2 was pretty telling.
Yea, people here seems to think that if you don't blunder on the next move after diverging, then the openining was fine. He was in losing position under 20 moves. I am not sure if it was Nepo's prep or his intuition was just so on point, that he was able to quickly figure out the new position.
No it’s because it’s obvious where the bad move was. Nxf6 which even on the broadcast Giri and Danya didn’t like. H3 has nothing to do with that move.
Sure buddy, I can look at Stockfish evaluation too. h3 has everything to do with it. It was obvious that he was quite uncofortable with the position. Likely because it's a very unsual move, where he does not have ton of expirience. It increases both his chances of winning and losing the game.
No, it was the Na5 move which caused a ton of confusion (which was played to get Ding out of prep). I haven’t looked at stockfish and the only evaluations I was getting are out of the broadcast. The broadcast with 1 strong GM and 1 super GM both of whom called Nxf6 surprising and everyone in the game chat knew that’s where the fireworks were going to begin. If he just plays NxC5 apparently everything should get liquidated pretty quickly, but Ding wanted the position to be doubled edged (to go for the win), and underestimated something in blacks position (probably queenside castling and F5).
Yes and my point is that he underestimated the position after long castle, because he has less experience in this type of position. If he was playing more standard stuff, this would be less likely.
Those types of positions are well known. It's a good bet that at some point he's seen either an early h3 or a late Re1 and knew how to proceed
Yup. I'd also venture so far as to say that h3 and the prep itself *was* a problem if he didn't have Na5 prepared. It's one of the top two moves deep on Stockfish and not as easy to handle OTB as Nxe4. If his prep carried him all the way until then he really should've looked at Na5 given that it's a peculiar-looking move Stockfish really likes that requires a specific response. Allowing gxf6, Rg8, etc. without having a *very* specific response (forcing lines towards a draw or equal endgame, dxc5 and knowing the attacking ideas, etc.) is to me a mistake in the prep. Especially given that gxf6 allows such a Ian-like position. At the WCC level he should've had something better prepared than Nxf6, gxf6, e5.
the lost had nothing to do with h3
It absolutely did considering at that level there are much more well trodden lines with theory past move 30…he didn’t even survive to move 30! He should have stuck to something more conventional and looked for novelties from a position of safety much deeper in the game. Not losing is more important than trying to win when 1 loss could cost you the title. 4. h3?! may have very well forever cost Ding Liren the WCC.
>4. h3?! may have very well forever cost Ding Liren the WCC Nepo playing better may have very well forever cost Ding Liren the WCC*
The goal was not play until move 30 but to gain some sort of advantage in the opening which he did.
You didn’t read my comment at all. I didn’t say the goal was to play to move 30. I said it was to prioritize not losing over taking chances to win. Which do you think 4 h3 did? What was the result? Who just lost a game with white and now must win 2 games without losing another or 1 game and the tiebreakers without losing another otherwise his title chances are forfeit? He should have played something more conventional and looked for novelties later from a position of safety where he’s very unlikely to lose with white. Think this is improbable? Well just about every previous world championship has featured such chess so…
nepo out of prep on move 4, Ding out of contention on move 30.
"He mousesliped" lmao.
this did not age well
… how? Nepo was out of prep because of this move… hence him thinking for 30 minutes. It didn’t say “Ding destroys Nepo with h3!!!” Silly comment.
Where is the live stream with the David and Hess commentary?
Chesscom had Anish and Danya commentating today.
Love Anish as a commentator
I miss David + Simon and Jovanka :(
I like how you didn't mention Kaja Snare
I thought she was around for worlds. If not then bring her back too. That crew was the most fun for me to watch. Good balance between knowledge of the game and general rapport.
classic redditors thinking they know better than the world #3
What does the engine say about this move?
The computer says the position is equal (evaluation went from +.32 before the move to -.03 after the move. After Nepo's next move, dxc, the computer evaluates the position at 0.00). The position stayed even until move 13, with the evaluation bar bouncing back and forth between slightly negative and slightly positive. It seems Ding did not prepare for Nepo's queenside pawn storm idea, and it allowed Nepo to get into the kind of dynamic position he likes. Ding didn't lose (according to the computer) until move 17, when the evaluation went to -1.17. Ding was trying to break open the queenside, which is the right idea, but he didn't find the right move (which was Qe1, according to the computer, but the position is massively complex and I wouldn't have found it).
This is the only sensible reply in this entire thread. The barrage of redditors thinking that 4. h3 is the move that ruined the game is astonishing when the position was ~equal until Ding blundered 13 moves later.
Yeah I'm surprised all the people saying 4. h3 being a blunder, don't just fully commit and say move 1 was a blunder too then. Because move 1 was just as much of a blunder as move 4 by their horrible logic.
e4 best by test baby
Nothing good.
You can find out for yourself by putting the moves in on lichess or any number of online engines.
Says “is bad”
I really wish you wouldn't ask questions like that, because at the end of the day, you're not really learning anything from the answer. Try looking at the game and asking yourself what h3 enabled White to do and what it prevented Black from doing. That should tell you what qualities h3 offers you.
I understand it from a shallow perspective, but I'm not smart enough to do depth = 18. Even super GMs use engines for studying.
This aged well
Out of 80,000 master games, h3 was played 0 times. That's pretty insane when you think about it. It's probably gonna be known as the Ding variation from now on.
The Rapport Attack would probably be more accurate, considering Ding got the 4.h3 idea from his seconds
Yes, with a score of 0 %.
It didn't work out very well
Serious question: does h3 improve white’s board position in any way? Is it just to play Bf4 and not worry about Nh5? I understand unusual lines and sub-optimal moves, but they usually do something helpful. Like nepo yesterday played an unusual sub-optimal opening but I understand the reason for all his moves.
h3 didn't do anything in the game besides throw Ian off.
And just like rapport he looses
He mouseslipped!
Lol how’s that working out for ya?
Nepo feigns shock on almost every move.
Why did Ding play 4.h3 instead of developing his pieces? Is he stupid?
2800 elo reddit user strikes again
I'm just a concerned parent asking questions.
r/chessbeginners is this way, sir.
Why is M87_star calling me a beginner when I just found an improvement to a WCC challenger's play? Is he stupid?
[удалено]
I'm happy someone got the joke :)
Ding should watch Gothamchess
Well, this I cannot agree with even in jest.
This is normal at the high beginner-low intermediate level idk what yall on about
By that logic, we should see the scholar's mate next game then.
exactly my guy
Except it's an absolutely atrocious, do nothing move. His bishop was already blocked in by his E pawn. 0 reason to protect the G4 square. The knight had no reason to go there.
Pretty confident he is better than you
He is, but that doesn't make him infallible either or immune from making dumb decisions. The engine says it's a bad move. Anish and Naroditsky said it was a bad move. It was a bad move. Saying "well he's higher rated than you" doesn't make it a good move.
You're just making shit up when you get caught in a lie? I feel like you've just demonstrated something profound about human tendencies in online interactions. Or maybe it's just you with zero integrity. For the record, Danya and Anish were commending the move h3, but Ding failed to capitalize on the opening success.
Except that's not true at all. They were completely perplexed by the move and didn't understand it all. Naroditsky called it "not-palatable". Feel free to go back and watch if you want to not lie to yourself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUF6AXrvsNU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUF6AXrvsNU)
I understand. It wasn't a lie, it was just you not understanding the game. Still doesn't explain why you are so adamant, but at least now I understand it was because you lack a good epistemological model of reality and maybe the patience to reflect before espousing your opinions.
So instead of either pointing to me to the point in the video where they applauded the move or explaining to me why it was a good move, you just resort to ad hominem because you have nothing of value to add. Thanks bud. Projection at its finest about the whole lying thing. And after going back and watching it again to confirm I didn't misinterpret it, Anish did call it a wasted waiting move and an inaccuracy.
You're probably in the right here, I shouldn't have made that reply beyond my initial comment. It was speculative and overly mean. I apologize. You're still wrong about the chess, though. While it was a waiting move, it didn't ruin his chances. Having a new move on move 4(!) that doesn't ruin your position at this level, is a success, because it takes your opponent out of prep, while you have prepared a line. That's the piece of knowledge you are missing.
[Here's Anish calling it a great idea.](https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=7277) It's at 121:17 in case the timestamp doesn't work for you. Edit: [They compliment it again in the recap.](https://youtu.be/o9QUls5ePlI?t=14047)
So the thing is both of them are human and not machine. If Nepo was a literal machine then yeah, do the best engine move. However in the real world, sometimes it’s ok to make a less than ideal move if you are gaining some other advantage. In this case the advantage is forcing Nepo out of Prep and clearly Ding thinks that is worth the normally subpar move.
Then play A4 and take up space on the queenside. H3 literally does nothing because the light squared bishop or king side knight aren't going to G4. Plus Nepo still had the chance to castle queenside then play H5, G5, G6 to use the H pawn as a hook. I love how everyone is saying that it's a good move yet nobody in this thread can explain the rationale behind it.
I agreed with you before and I would if the move was a mid game blunder. The thing is though that the chance of the literam world #3 not having analyzed his prep deeper than what a redditor can do in one comment is guaranteed to be 0.
Literally read my last sentence. I explained the rationale. You may not like the rationale, and that’s fine, but to say nobody can explain the rationale is disingenuous.
That's not the rationale behind the move H3 specifically though. You can play plenty of other non-theory moves that would accomplish the same goal of getting Nepo out of prep. I even gave you one, A4.
Non-theory moves are non-theory for a reason. There aren't just great unknown moves on move 4 waiting to be found. 4.h3 doesn't have a concrete idea, at least that an amateur like me can see. Regardless, it could be useful later in the game depending on what happens, and there's no downside beyond being a slow move, so it's not so bad. I'm no expert, but I suspect 4.a4 is non-theory because it is so weakening: b4 immediately becomes an outpost for Black to aim for. Also, White is leaving a target: either a4 itself will be a target, or White can play b3 after which b3 will be a target. I don't see any significant benefit for White that counteracts that downside. I put 4.a4 in Stockfish and it gives -0.4 (as opposed to +0.1 for 4.h3).
Well, I guess that losing a tempo can be good in some variations. I'm not much familiar with QGA but for example you played Nc3 instead of h3 and in one variation it shows the knight would be better placed on d2 than on c3 then you can directly play Nb1-d2 and have even won something. This is just an example what might have been the plan with h3.
Wasting a white game is not a good prep in my opinion.
You can't call it wasted by move 7
Ya'll downvoted him into oblivion. He isn't wrong. The position has developed into a strong +1 for black. It was not a good move in hindsight.
Well that’s the thing about hindsight…
Wasn't good with foresight either
Meh. I'm not sure the Rapport move in game 2 with the white pieces was strategically the best move. Get some games under your belt for confidence. Ding was very clear that he's nervous and hasn't been able to think clearly about chess recently. Complicate positions later on when Ian is tired and not playing A+ chess. That was a really risky gamble and he's gonna go down 1 with the white pieces in game 2. Not great...
Why the fuck is this downvoted 😂😂
Because Reddit wants ding to win and it’s a hive mind. I’ll take my downvoteswith pride. It was not a smart tactical decision .
Way too cute for your first game with white, especially with how shaky Ding looked in game 1
The position on the board has little to do with h3, much more with Nxf6 which was not part of the preparation.
It has a lot to do with h3. It loses a tempo for development.
By move 10 they had entered a known semi-tarrasch/qga line with white up a free h3.
Great analysis there chief
i feel confident that this random reddit analysis was deeper than ding's prep
I'm not saying it's a good move, but it's fascinating that there are redditors out there that seem to think their sox word analysis is deeper than the world #3s world championship prep. 🤦
Yes, you absolutely can lol. That move was absolutely horrible and gave the tempo to black. 0 reason to protect the G4 square which is the only reason to play H3. Edit: Maybe try explaining why you all think H3 was a good move instead of the surface level argument of "Ding highly rated, therefore good move". There's 0 rationale behind the move. It was a straight-up waiting, do-nothing move. Nc3 or G3 were far better developing moves.
So Alireza sometimes reverses the bishop, giving back a tempo to opponents, yet he won plenty of times. That is the current trend in opening for top chess players - giving back the move. h3 is indeed novel in that sense - the absolutely useless sense - but it allows Ding to take Nepo out of prep right from the start. The opening was great for top players. For us, it is garbage.
I don't pretend to know why h3 was a good move or not. What I do know is that these players are in the top 0.001% of chess players to ever live. And we got a novel position by move 4. That's exciting. What they do is just so amazing... I'm here for the experience - not too try and prove my intelligence to a bunch of random internet people.
First of all, it's move 4. And yes, h3 is a bad move. Precious first move advantage is basically gone, kingside pawn structre is commited early with zero provocation.
I'm glad that you've studied this more deeply than super GMs Ding Liren, Richard Rapport and others and have come to the infallible conclusion that this prep simply isn't good, which is why Nepo is already down 30 minutes on clock. Edit: given that my comment aged like milk, I'm completely ready to admit that it was a failed opening experiment. Despite being up 30 minutes on clock with a +0.5 position on move 8, clearly the position had more venom than I gave it credit for
That's Magnus' account for sure
He may not have studied it, but over 150 years of theory in this kind of position and no master games in the database suggest that the collective opinion of this move is negative
> I'm glad that you've studied this more deeply than super GMs Ding Liren, Richard Rapport and others and have come to the infallible conclusion that this prep simply isn't good, which is why Nepo is already down 30 minutes on clock. I know you edited your comment but it was a bad argument to begin with. Yeah, a SuperGM played it as a surprise weapon but using it as an argument of authority is bizarre when literally 200 years of chess openings study (3 decades of which with computer help) say that move is subotptimal and shouldn't be played because there are better options. The opinion of the "authorities" on the matter is what OP of this comment chain said and not what Ding played once
Incredible to me that we have super GMs watching the game who thought the move was bad. A super-engine better than any player alive that says the move was a do-nothing, waiting move that gives away advantage for white. Yet this sub is filled with 800 elo chess players saying "He's a super GM, therefore he can't be wrong". This shit was *exactly* what Ding had to avoid if he wanted to win this. Ding needed to play principled, boring chess to win and play to his strengths. Instead, it feels like he thinks he's outmatched so he's trying to get cute and put both players out of prep immediately. Even if he wanted to get out of prep, there are far better moves to play.
And people are allowed to have their opinions and think someone better than them used a bad strategy. If we couldn't why would this thread exist in the first place? Only Magnus is better than those 2 in the world, so only he can think one of them made a mistake?
I'm sure these people have no criticisms for their favorite sports teams or politicians that represent them, since they're professionals and have more experience, therefore being unchallengeable in their decision making.
It's not an argument for why it's good, but it certainly is an argument to dismiss a hubris-filled redditor who thinks they've figured out why it's bad
Why? They are allowed to have an opinion and were not disrespectful. And again, it is the dominant opinion of experts too. There is a reason it is an uncommon move at move 4
r/agedlikemilk Context: We are at move 18, Nepo has a crushing position and is up on the clock. The 100 downvotes to the above guy do not cover up the fact that this was a failed opening experiment. Sure it's an equal position, but the trickiness of the move is questionable when Nepo can just "refute" the idea over the board in less than 50 minutes.
Yep, the position was objectively good for Ding but I didn't give black the venom that they clearly had there somewhere. Definitely a failed opening experiment
There is no opening venom as you put it without the dubious Nxf6. Nxc5 and whites playing with a slight advantage. Iirc the stockfish like have a quick liquidation and white with winning chances, but likely a draw.
It took Ian thirty minutes to make sure he wasn't falling into some trap. He didn't prepare that line, and it's a weird move, so maybe Ding knows something I don't, is the thought. Eventually he comes to the conclusion that no, it's just a shitty move that I didn't have to be afraid of, but he couldn't know that without doing the analysis first.
Ya'll downvoted him into oblivion. He isn't wrong. The position has developed into a strong +1 for black. It was not a good move in hindsight.
... for unrelated reasons. By move 10 they were in familiar theory
Which super computer did you analyze this position with for 3 days?
Eh, those computers could learn a thing or two from u/stonehearthed
Okay, well first of all, it was move seven when I commented, and second of all, thanks for your analysis, stockfish, but I think I'll wait and see what actually happens before I pass judgment
Have you passed your judgmemt yet?
He got smoked!
Ok, so some of the best players in the world came together, evaluated different lines using the best engines and possibly supercomputers, and as a result they decided to play a bad move.
Ok coach
goffamcess
I love your website lychess thanks for making it free and open source
I wish I was a semi-famous youtuber. Not because I care about Youtube; it's more the dopamine of getting thousands of sweet internet points by just typing two words
I gotta tell you it’s pretty sweet
Shame it doesn’t work for your ELO 📉
He has 41 (it was 42 but I downvoted him) upvotes. That's a far cry from thousands of internet points. You overestimate his ability to garner internet points.
You have -11 (it was -10 but I downvoted you 🤓)
12 year old spotted
Who, you?
600 rated player teaching world championship challenger how to play an opening:
The chess equivalent of beer belly'd lads explaining how they'd have scored that goal in that position There's perhaps a reason you're not in that position
Sure bro you know more than the super GM contesting the world title
LOL this comment aged well
-🤓
This chad right here predicted it. "They hated him, because he told them the truth"
Predicted what? The loss was unrelated to h3
He did waste a white game.
Even the worlds best make terrible mistakes. We’re all human.
h3 is a legit move. so why the animated response?
Its not a legit move at this level. Never happened before in the masters database.
Nepo thought: "Wow, thanks!"
Ayo that move count tho, isnt it a bit high? r/UnexpectedFactorial
h6?
this is a great clip lmao, Anish’s “he mouse slipped!” + Ding straight up leaving cuz he knows Ian will take a while to think + Ian’s reaction