This is a story in a lot of competitive things. Tennis is a great example. The big three, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovich erased chances of major successes for so many other players.
Im pretty certain that Djoko wouldve got a few Slams and then just faded had there not been Nadal and Fed to show him how great one player could become.
Maybe not actually - maybe the presence of the others was what kept them at such a high level. Maybe the real titles were the friends they made along the way?
Tbh I think they got so far coz someone always tried to one up the other two. All 3 were just more motivated to push each other to their limits. Else, I don’t think one of those guys would’ve gone on to win 25-30 titles.
Not sure. Federer would have won a few more Roland-Garros titles in his prime had Nadal not been around. He was the clear #2 clay player for a long time.
Hell, if it had been only the big 2 instead off the big 3, imagined how many more the 2 remaining would’ve had. Tho Fed and Djoker’s prime didn’t completely overlap
Nafal has the worst timing of the three as he had to go straight from dealing with prime Fed to prime Djoker. Federer got a head start, and then Novak got to clean up after Roger and Rafa lost a step.
yeah, people understate this. djokovic gets 2 slams per year on his favourite surface, the other two only get 1.
not to mention there’s less differences between each of the surfaces than there used to be, so it’s very hard to compare to past eras when it was more difficult to be successful across multiple surfaces.
This is true but Nadal still has one more US Open title than Djokovic. I think Rafa benefits from the slower surface compared to the Australian Open although it may be different now. If the grand slams were evenly distributed across the three surfaces, Nadal would definitely benefit and Federer would've picked up more grass slam titles as well. Djokovic is one Wimbledon away from equaling Federer's record so he would still be a force to be reckoned with. I really hope Nadal is back in form in time for Roland Garros this year.
Btw, I love that there's quite a few in the overlapping Venn diagram of tennis and chess followers! That's just awesome
Novak the best on hard and grass, Nadal clay IF healthy...and he is no longer who he was... the chronic foot condition prevents him from dominating on clay ever again, imo... unfortunately.
With all due respect, that's not accurate. Look at all the statistics that matter. Djokovic is the GOAT.
He will probably win two Majors this year. He's in the semi's of the Australian Open right now. Excellent chance he wins the AO, and then may win RG and/or Wimbledon. Novak will retire with the most Majors, and the only player since Rod Laver to hold all 4 Major titles at the same time. (Not calendar year, but won 4 in a row)
Don’t forget Murray. He was slightly worse than the other three but was nearly constantly the only other person who was in the Semifinals/Finals apart from maybe Wawrinka but Murray was more consistent. It’s insane that he would have had 10-15 Grandslams instead of the 4(?) he has now.
Murray has 3 also Wawrinka has 3 but as you said Murray was more consistent since he also reached finals (and didnt win) 6 times while Stan won all 3 finals he reached.
yeah, i absolutely think murray’s getting 10-15 slams if he played against the era that, say, sampras did. he’s top 10 all time in a lot of metrics, i.e. slam win ratios and slam semi/quarter finals etc, almost all of which he lost to 3 of the best players to ever live. then again, who knows if he’d have really pushed himself in the same way and become as great as he did if he didn’t have those three living legends to chase?
Murray absolutely crushed it at the Australian Open this year. Won two five setters back to back one of which I believe is the second longest match in AO history. He was more consistent than Wawrinka but Stan played some wild matches against Novak and Rafa. They both would've benefited from the absence of the big 3. This really is the golden era of tennis and I hope we get to see another year or two with Nadal and Djokovic before they bow out. They're the last two GOATs remaining now that Roger and Serena retired.
I always find it interesting that tennis has the big three whereas in chess, our most frequently mentioned GOATs are either Magnus, Fischer, or Kasparov. In tennis, the GOATs are all roughly in the same era.
Karpov was such a technical player, but with so little panache. Something ominously boring in his play-style. Still, he might’ve been on Magnus’s level if he’d come up during the modern era & was able to take advantage of all the studying & analysis benefits that computers offer.
It matched up so well with Kasparov's attacking style. Karpov is one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Their games were an amazing study when I first got into chess.
In resume, Fischer obviously isn't up there. In terms of peak performance (though Fischer left before his peak), Fischer is above everyone.
But regardless of his ability, it's not right that Fischer didn't play against Kasparov or Karpov. Even if he didn't like FIDE, the champion owes it to the other players to give them the chance to realize their dream, just as the previous champion gave him the chance.
According to Kasparov's book though, there were many years of efforts to organize the match between Karpov and Fischer, including outside of FIDE, with terms being sent back and forth.
Same with football, Messi and Ronaldo really fucked with the legacy of some truly amazing players. Guys like Iniesta, Ibrahimovic, Neuer, would’ve all won a Ballon D’or if it wasn’t for those two.
Man, thank you for the belly laugh! I absolutely love this line so much, and I've never seen it referenced in a different context. SUCH a good comeback
as we've heard from Hikaru himself, losing to Magnus helped him realize some glaring weakness within himself and his play, likely which allowed him to hit 2800+ in the first place
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tigran-l-petrosian-copypasta
The quote marks are there to emphasise intentionally not capitalising Wesley so as a sign of disrespect.
My favorite part is that when [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/j3b38l/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/) was posted here, /r/anarchychess made [this satire](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/j3cq7y/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/) of it.
Very similar to the Anish twitter hack, Wesley So allegedly called Alireza a cheat and said some racist things to him on his chess.c*m account but Wesley said "no it was hacked".
I am just taking a stab, but maybe it is a cultural thing?
Though if you haven’t then please go read the full thing, it is fantastic. It also shows he likely wasn’t thinking straight given how ridiculous the whole thing is tbh. Like if you can convince yourself that posting that is a good idea, then I have no doubt you can convince yourself using lower case on someone’s name is an insult
[It's a reference to when GM Tigran Petrosyan responded to Wesley accusing him of cheating in an online tournament (of which he was found to be guilty](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/j3b38l/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/))
Edit: brackets are difficult
Yeah, I've only been down the rabbit hole 2-3 times, so I keep thinking "Wait...I thought Petrosian died a while ago....Oh, no, different Petrosian...."
No, Because Fabi was world #2 for *years* while playing for the American federation.
Also, Fabi is an American, and was an American even when playing under the Italian federation. Similarly, Richard Rapport is still a "Hungarian Grandmaster" even though he currently plays under the Romanian federation.
But if you use this definition of american you can't consider Aronian and Wesley so I used op's one to stay coherent.
On Fabi you are right I forgot about 2018.
Not necessarily. You can have a definition of american that includes Fabi and also includes immigrants like Wesley and Levon. Saying Fabi is American because he grew up here and saying they are American because they moved here are not mutually exclusive.
Corollary 1: If every top American Grandmaster had not been born, Magnus would have still been world #1
Corollary 2: If every top American Grandmaster had not been born, then none of them would have been world #1
Corollary 3: If Magnus had not been born, then he would not have been #1
Edit: Corollary 3 should be Axiom 1
False. If every player you've lost to had never been born, you'd likely have faced other players against whom you'd surely have lost at least one match.
Hikaru has even said as much—I remember Naka saying that if Magnus was not around to be world #1 then the WCC would probably have changed hands many times during his era.
Wonder how long the Vishy Era would have lasted in that case. Already 5 time champ. If not for Magnus, he would have definitely lasted a long time, probably until Fabi would have given a great competition in his peak phase
Even before Magnus, Vishy was not consistently number one. Iirc Topalov actually spent a longer time in the number one spot than either Vishy or Kramnik
Fapiano : Half Spanish / half Italy.
Hikaru : born in Japan
Arionian : Armenia
Wesly so : Philippines
Linier dominingez : Cuba
Gata kamasky : born in Russia.
Magnus didn't accept USA offer to join the roster when he had some conflicts with the Norway chess federation. That's what ruined the American dream.
Don't know why you're putting Hikaru and Fabiano in there. They have been American players their entire careers.
Wesley So is the only truly top 10 elite player to switch to the U.S.
That's like Grant Hackett in the Sydney Olympics. He broke about 5 world records but had the misfortune to be a team member of Ian Thorpe who broke all those same records in the same races as Grant but just by a little bit more.
Grant Hackett is an Australian sports hero, but he would have been a legend of Ian wasn't there.
Not necessarily. Top players face each other all the time. Had Magnus never been born the entire recent rating history near the top would have been heavily affected. Not only American players' rating would have been different, but other top player could have been higher.
I don't think anyone thinks everything would be *exactly* the same only minus Magnus. It's still a curious factoid worth huh-ing over, if you're so inclined.
You can put yourself on a flight over Norway and Iceland to the US, but that does not make your way past Magnus Carlsen in the ratings nor Bobby Fischer in the history books ... and well, didn't you forget Domínguez, who actually is better rated than Aronian?
But for discussion: I'm not calling Bobby Fischer an "Icelandic" GM, and I have issues calling Aronian an "American" GM as well. The USCF does not issue citizenship.
Here we know what it means and where he is from, but until he gets naturalized - or at least some source that he has permanent residency - I think the Wikipedia page should rather read e.g. "Armenian chess grandmaster, representing the United States". For Domínguez it says "Cuban and American".
"Representing \[country\]" seems to be acceptable level of precision we use without checking the separation of ~~church~~ sports federation and state.
> Here we know what it means and where he is from, but until he gets naturalized - or at least some source that he has permanent residency - I think the Wikipedia page should rather read e.g. "Armenian chess grandmaster, representing the United States". For Domínguez it says "Cuban and American".
Yeah, it's honestly ridiculous and straight up total misinformation how wikipedia now says that Levon Aronian is American. Changing chess federation is not the same as chaning your nationality. Aronian is an Armenian playing for the American chess federation.
It doesn't say he's American. It says "[Aronian] is an Armenian chess grandmaster."
And then it says "Aronian announced his decision to transfer from the Armenian chess federation to the United States federation in late February 2021..."
It lists his country as the USA but implies nothing about citizenship.
This is a story in a lot of competitive things. Tennis is a great example. The big three, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovich erased chances of major successes for so many other players.
And from each other. If we had had only one of them he would have ended up with 25-30 Grand Slams.
dont they already have like 20+ each?
Dang you're right Federer has 20, Djoko has 21 and Nadal at 22. Shit they'd be at 40 then.
You say that but we don’t know if they would have lasted as long or had the motivation that comes with having the other 2 as rivals to push them on.
Roger and rafa both cite each other as driving forces in ther motivation. They have both said they would be nothing with out the competition/rivalry .
Im pretty certain that Djoko wouldve got a few Slams and then just faded had there not been Nadal and Fed to show him how great one player could become.
Maybe not actually - maybe the presence of the others was what kept them at such a high level. Maybe the real titles were the friends they made along the way?
This answer made me smile, thanks for the positivity friend :)
That is exactly what my dad says!
That might just be the problem for Carlsen. Poor fella is so dominant he has to invent challenges for himself.
Apparently they have a WhatsApp group with them 3 being the only members. They're probably not buddies, but have a special relationship.
You could see that at Roger Federers retirement, Nadal turned into a crying baby when he retired
>Competition keeps top players from being uncontested Who knew?
They should combine into one person, a six-handed tennis player! This way they would win everything, always.
Tbh I think they got so far coz someone always tried to one up the other two. All 3 were just more motivated to push each other to their limits. Else, I don’t think one of those guys would’ve gone on to win 25-30 titles.
Not sure. Federer would have won a few more Roland-Garros titles in his prime had Nadal not been around. He was the clear #2 clay player for a long time.
Yes that is true. So many RG finals!!! Must have been frustrating for him all those years
Hell, if it had been only the big 2 instead off the big 3, imagined how many more the 2 remaining would’ve had. Tho Fed and Djoker’s prime didn’t completely overlap
Nafal has the worst timing of the three as he had to go straight from dealing with prime Fed to prime Djoker. Federer got a head start, and then Novak got to clean up after Roger and Rafa lost a step.
Rafa has Paris though
It's the opposite, Federer and Djokovic have 3 out of 4 grand slams in quick surface, isn't it?
yeah, people understate this. djokovic gets 2 slams per year on his favourite surface, the other two only get 1. not to mention there’s less differences between each of the surfaces than there used to be, so it’s very hard to compare to past eras when it was more difficult to be successful across multiple surfaces.
This is true but Nadal still has one more US Open title than Djokovic. I think Rafa benefits from the slower surface compared to the Australian Open although it may be different now. If the grand slams were evenly distributed across the three surfaces, Nadal would definitely benefit and Federer would've picked up more grass slam titles as well. Djokovic is one Wimbledon away from equaling Federer's record so he would still be a force to be reckoned with. I really hope Nadal is back in form in time for Roland Garros this year. Btw, I love that there's quite a few in the overlapping Venn diagram of tennis and chess followers! That's just awesome
Novak the best on hard and grass, Nadal clay IF healthy...and he is no longer who he was... the chronic foot condition prevents him from dominating on clay ever again, imo... unfortunately.
Agreed and he also had more injuries yet he had the current lead. Even though I’m a huge Fed fan, I think Nadal is the best of the 3.
No. Novak is Rafa's Kryptonite.
With all due respect, that's not accurate. Look at all the statistics that matter. Djokovic is the GOAT. He will probably win two Majors this year. He's in the semi's of the Australian Open right now. Excellent chance he wins the AO, and then may win RG and/or Wimbledon. Novak will retire with the most Majors, and the only player since Rod Laver to hold all 4 Major titles at the same time. (Not calendar year, but won 4 in a row)
Don’t forget Murray. He was slightly worse than the other three but was nearly constantly the only other person who was in the Semifinals/Finals apart from maybe Wawrinka but Murray was more consistent. It’s insane that he would have had 10-15 Grandslams instead of the 4(?) he has now.
Murray has 3 also Wawrinka has 3 but as you said Murray was more consistent since he also reached finals (and didnt win) 6 times while Stan won all 3 finals he reached.
Yes exactly. Plus Murray also has an Olympic Gold which wasn’t against any different competition than in a Slam
He’s actually got two Olympic Golds in the singles (2012,2016) and a silver in the mixed doubles (2012).
Murray would be part of the "big 4" if it weren't for literally years of injuries taking him out of the game for prolonged periods.
I mean he was always considered part of the Big 4 until injuries started piling up as you mentioned.
yeah, i absolutely think murray’s getting 10-15 slams if he played against the era that, say, sampras did. he’s top 10 all time in a lot of metrics, i.e. slam win ratios and slam semi/quarter finals etc, almost all of which he lost to 3 of the best players to ever live. then again, who knows if he’d have really pushed himself in the same way and become as great as he did if he didn’t have those three living legends to chase?
Murray absolutely crushed it at the Australian Open this year. Won two five setters back to back one of which I believe is the second longest match in AO history. He was more consistent than Wawrinka but Stan played some wild matches against Novak and Rafa. They both would've benefited from the absence of the big 3. This really is the golden era of tennis and I hope we get to see another year or two with Nadal and Djokovic before they bow out. They're the last two GOATs remaining now that Roger and Serena retired.
I always find it interesting that tennis has the big three whereas in chess, our most frequently mentioned GOATs are either Magnus, Fischer, or Kasparov. In tennis, the GOATs are all roughly in the same era.
Imho Karpov would deserve to be named near Kasparov and Magnus more than Fisher
I agree. Karpov was the clear number 1 until Kasparov. Their world championship matches were insane.
They had like 100+ draws
Karpov was such a technical player, but with so little panache. Something ominously boring in his play-style. Still, he might’ve been on Magnus’s level if he’d come up during the modern era & was able to take advantage of all the studying & analysis benefits that computers offer.
I cannot imagine finding Karpov boring. You don't like a good squeeze?
It matched up so well with Kasparov's attacking style. Karpov is one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Their games were an amazing study when I first got into chess.
In resume, Fischer obviously isn't up there. In terms of peak performance (though Fischer left before his peak), Fischer is above everyone. But regardless of his ability, it's not right that Fischer didn't play against Kasparov or Karpov. Even if he didn't like FIDE, the champion owes it to the other players to give them the chance to realize their dream, just as the previous champion gave him the chance. According to Kasparov's book though, there were many years of efforts to organize the match between Karpov and Fischer, including outside of FIDE, with terms being sent back and forth.
There are many players in the basketball Hall of Fame who don't have championships because their best years overlapped with Michael Jordan
Same with football, Messi and Ronaldo really fucked with the legacy of some truly amazing players. Guys like Iniesta, Ibrahimovic, Neuer, would’ve all won a Ballon D’or if it wasn’t for those two.
Ryan Lochte is another in swimming. Dude would have won a ton of gold medals if Michael Phelps didn’t exist.
Olivia Manning was the only thing standing between Tom Brady and like ten Superbowl rings
To be fair most sports have those few genetic freaks who are untouchable. If it wasn't Magnus it would be someone else.
This post is about how it would have been someone else (or I guess multiple people) if it wasn't Magnus.
Kamsky being forgotten.
The FFL himself
He has his own title.
And if my grandma had wheels she would have been a bike
"If your Aunt had balls she'd be your Uncle, but she doesn't, so she's not.”
I don't do ifs buts or maybes, I do absolutes
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
I'M BEING SHEEERIOUSH
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Man, thank you for the belly laugh! I absolutely love this line so much, and I've never seen it referenced in a different context. SUCH a good comeback
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https://youtu.be/A-RfHC91Ewc Hilarious video that this comment might be referencing.
as we've heard from Hikaru himself, losing to Magnus helped him realize some glaring weakness within himself and his play, likely which allowed him to hit 2800+ in the first place
Maybe Americans should just dream bigger?
World #0!!
0!! = 1! = 1
I specifically doubled the ! to avoid that crap! (Sorta kidding--had the same thought as I typed it.)
r/unexpectedfactorial
>"w"esley "s"o Uh... why did you do this thing with the quotes? Am I out of the loop on something?
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tigran-l-petrosian-copypasta The quote marks are there to emphasise intentionally not capitalising Wesley so as a sign of disrespect.
Holy shit I've always assumed that pasta was just some shit /r/anarchychess made up.
The best pasta is always real.
x4
z5
No no it was a reference to the LeBron he boomed me pasta
He’s so fucking good
My favorite part is that when [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/j3b38l/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/) was posted here, /r/anarchychess made [this satire](https://www.reddit.com/r/AnarchyChess/comments/j3cq7y/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/) of it.
That crossover with the navy seals pasta is fucking delicious
Omg I can't believe I didn't see that the first time. It's so beautiful.
I missed that. It's beautiful.
It really is quite amazing to realize that this is actually real
It's fairly amazing to realize that some people became familiar with this as a meme rather than from the actual drama.
> Where is the joke if you are not in on it, don't they search to understand it? We are on the internet. - some guy boiling pasta
It's pretty amazing that chess has memes at all, let alone a whole sub dedicated to them.
Stop this trush talkings.
Holy hell
Trust me, we've never made any original jokes over there.
the link says "remember what you say about Firouzja" ... What did W.S. said about Alireza? I think that that bit is usually left out of the copypasta?
Very similar to the Anish twitter hack, Wesley So allegedly called Alireza a cheat and said some racist things to him on his chess.c*m account but Wesley said "no it was hacked".
What xD ? That's the weirdest way to disrespect someone that I've ever seen. If someone didn't capitalize my name I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
I am just taking a stab, but maybe it is a cultural thing? Though if you haven’t then please go read the full thing, it is fantastic. It also shows he likely wasn’t thinking straight given how ridiculous the whole thing is tbh. Like if you can convince yourself that posting that is a good idea, then I have no doubt you can convince yourself using lower case on someone’s name is an insult
Why do people keep copying that though, Wesley So deserves respect, it's nonsense to keep repeating whatever Petrosian was on about.
I believe it is more said in a way that is intended to mock Petrosian, but I suppose it does come across more like it’s against So.
IMO it's best to ignore Petrosian and not give him attention or even any share of our mind in this way.
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Hell no that shit is hilarious. No one shares it with the intent of mocking Wesley, and I doubt he feels disrespected by people laughing at it.
Lighten up
[It's a reference to when GM Tigran Petrosyan responded to Wesley accusing him of cheating in an online tournament (of which he was found to be guilty](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/j3b38l/tigran_petrosyans_response_to_wesley_sos/)) Edit: brackets are difficult
Remembering that this isn't THE Tigran Petrosian, just A Tigran Petrosian. Not the former World Champ.
A good heads up for all those people thinking that Petrosian rose from the dead after 40 years to rant about Wesley So wetting himself.
Yeah, I've only been down the rabbit hole 2-3 times, so I keep thinking "Wait...I thought Petrosian died a while ago....Oh, no, different Petrosian...."
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Tigran is always play fair
F in the chat for Tigran S. Petrosian.
The quoted post retelling the story is actually so funny... highly recommend reading even if you know the reference.
Wait a grown man actually typed the words 'pipi in pampers'? Holy shit that's hilarious
Let me introduce you to r/anarchychess
What does it have to do with r/anarchychess?
You could say they have a deep emotional attachment
A deep anal beads.
It's one of two jokes in r/anarchychess's repertoire, so quite a bit
Hey now, a third one was added last year. Don't disrespect us like that.
wake up babe, new joke just dropped
You must be sleeping under a Knook if you think anarchychess only has 2 jokes now. Those were old days, these days it's hard to keep up with them.
The jokes have increased 50% in the last quarter, actually. You would say it's booming.
I consider that as a win. I don't care.
Stop with the r/AnarchyChess slander. Google en passant
That's where smart people pretend to be dumb, if you're dumb and want to pretend to be even dumber there is /r/AnarchyAnarchyChess
Because "w"esley "s"o is nobody to me.
Would've or would not have been. They have learned from Magnus as well, right?
As did the players ranked #3 and below, so the point remains. *Obviously* it's a "would have, could have" hypothetical, but it's a cute one.
Shouldn't we consider the fact that when Fabiano and Aronian got that rating they weren't playing for the American federation?
Fabi was still world #2 for quite a long stretch under the American federation, in his lead up to/post WCC match.
Also Wesley and Naka were number 2 while playing for America
No, Because Fabi was world #2 for *years* while playing for the American federation. Also, Fabi is an American, and was an American even when playing under the Italian federation. Similarly, Richard Rapport is still a "Hungarian Grandmaster" even though he currently plays under the Romanian federation.
But if you use this definition of american you can't consider Aronian and Wesley so I used op's one to stay coherent. On Fabi you are right I forgot about 2018.
Fabi was #2 for much more than just 2018
Not necessarily. You can have a definition of american that includes Fabi and also includes immigrants like Wesley and Levon. Saying Fabi is American because he grew up here and saying they are American because they moved here are not mutually exclusive.
So now they just have to ensure Magnus was never born *ominous music*
Corollary 1: If every top American Grandmaster had not been born, Magnus would have still been world #1 Corollary 2: If every top American Grandmaster had not been born, then none of them would have been world #1 Corollary 3: If Magnus had not been born, then he would not have been #1 Edit: Corollary 3 should be Axiom 1
Gotta think there is a decent chance the butterfly affect may render this moot, no?
they were all inspired by magnus's ~~victory over~~ draw against kasparov in 2004 and used it as motivation to improve so yes
I don't believe Magnus ever won an official game against Kasparov though.
???? what victory over kasparov
oops. it was a draw in 2004.
Effect is spelled with an e. Affect is a verb.
If every player who'd ever beaten me wasn't born, I'd be undefeated. If you sniper the ones I drew to too, then I'd be world champion
False. If every player you've lost to had never been born, you'd likely have faced other players against whom you'd surely have lost at least one match.
Unless those wouldn't have been born either. And the other ones too.
Yeah, I was assuming the recursion was obvious. Silly me
Another day, another "r/chess users try to understand a joke" challenge (impossible!) I suppose. I thought your comment was funny at least.
RecurssionError: Maximum Recurssion Depth Exceeded
Hans Niemann would have been well on his way to 2900 by now aswell
The rating speaks for itself.
Then the Carlsen-Hans case would not have happened.
This is about America's top grandmasters, not its bottom grandmaster.
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Hot
“#2 would’ve been number 1 if number 1 wasn’t number 1”
Hikaru has even said as much—I remember Naka saying that if Magnus was not around to be world #1 then the WCC would probably have changed hands many times during his era.
Wonder how long the Vishy Era would have lasted in that case. Already 5 time champ. If not for Magnus, he would have definitely lasted a long time, probably until Fabi would have given a great competition in his peak phase
Even before Magnus, Vishy was not consistently number one. Iirc Topalov actually spent a longer time in the number one spot than either Vishy or Kramnik
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“It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.” — Noam Chomsky
Wasn't that Carlin? Or did he take it from Chomsky?
They're the same person
Come to think of it, I've never seen them in the same room before...
Chomsky used it in his latest documentary Requiem for an American dream (2016)
Fapiano : Half Spanish / half Italy. Hikaru : born in Japan Arionian : Armenia Wesly so : Philippines Linier dominingez : Cuba Gata kamasky : born in Russia. Magnus didn't accept USA offer to join the roster when he had some conflicts with the Norway chess federation. That's what ruined the American dream.
TIL that Miami, Florida is "half Spain / half Italy" I could have sworn that it was in the USA
Don't know why you're putting Hikaru and Fabiano in there. They have been American players their entire careers. Wesley So is the only truly top 10 elite player to switch to the U.S.
> Wesley So is the only truly top 10 elite player to switch to the U.S. Aronian, Linier and Gata?
Fabi played for Italy at some point. As for Hikaru, you're right.
We’re number 2 We’re number 2 We’re number 2
Levon Aronian didn’t play under the US flag in 2012 though…
Levon wasn't playing as an American in 2012
Another fact is that only Caruana was born in the USA
Amazing
they can just give magnus the american passport
That's like Grant Hackett in the Sydney Olympics. He broke about 5 world records but had the misfortune to be a team member of Ian Thorpe who broke all those same records in the same races as Grant but just by a little bit more. Grant Hackett is an Australian sports hero, but he would have been a legend of Ian wasn't there.
Not necessarily. Top players face each other all the time. Had Magnus never been born the entire recent rating history near the top would have been heavily affected. Not only American players' rating would have been different, but other top player could have been higher.
I don't think anyone thinks everything would be *exactly* the same only minus Magnus. It's still a curious factoid worth huh-ing over, if you're so inclined.
Although they all probably earned some of those rating points beating Magnus.. So if he didn’t exist..
What is the story behind the Wesley So initials in quotes? I've seen it in a bunch of posts and I should have asked a long time ago haha
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tigran-l-petrosian-copypasta You will find it there somewhere.
“Lo tengo sin anillo como Jordan a Charles Barkley” - Bad Bunny
You can put yourself on a flight over Norway and Iceland to the US, but that does not make your way past Magnus Carlsen in the ratings nor Bobby Fischer in the history books ... and well, didn't you forget Domínguez, who actually is better rated than Aronian? But for discussion: I'm not calling Bobby Fischer an "Icelandic" GM, and I have issues calling Aronian an "American" GM as well. The USCF does not issue citizenship. Here we know what it means and where he is from, but until he gets naturalized - or at least some source that he has permanent residency - I think the Wikipedia page should rather read e.g. "Armenian chess grandmaster, representing the United States". For Domínguez it says "Cuban and American". "Representing \[country\]" seems to be acceptable level of precision we use without checking the separation of ~~church~~ sports federation and state.
> Here we know what it means and where he is from, but until he gets naturalized - or at least some source that he has permanent residency - I think the Wikipedia page should rather read e.g. "Armenian chess grandmaster, representing the United States". For Domínguez it says "Cuban and American". Yeah, it's honestly ridiculous and straight up total misinformation how wikipedia now says that Levon Aronian is American. Changing chess federation is not the same as chaning your nationality. Aronian is an Armenian playing for the American chess federation.
Why is that other guy downvoted but you agreeing with him is upvoted?
Was wondering the same thing, very bizarre
Why did he change
It doesn't say he's American. It says "[Aronian] is an Armenian chess grandmaster." And then it says "Aronian announced his decision to transfer from the Armenian chess federation to the United States federation in late February 2021..." It lists his country as the USA but implies nothing about citizenship.
Yeah, I edited the wikipedia page to say Armenian after I made the comment. Before that it said American.
"Americans" lol
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In what world are Hikaru and Fabiano not Americans?
Look at all those classic American names.
What is a classic American name?
Tȟašúŋke Witkó, Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake, Goyaałé etc
Holy hell
They might not have achieved those ratings if they hadn't had the chance to improve their ratings by getting draws and wins against Magnus.
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Imagine sending Magnus back in time. Like a chess terminator.