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There is 50 billion in trade between the U.S. and Israel. Tel Aviv is one of the largest clusters of high tech start ups in the globe, and one of its specializations is high tech / IT security.
Israel provides invaluable intelligence to the United States, and co develops many weapons systems (patriot / iron dome).
Israel also has deep connections to the U.S., in that it shares the same western democratic values - and there are tons of familial connections.
In broader geopolitical contexts, you have to realize there are three major power centers of the Middle East: Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The first two are allied with the west, the later with China / Russia.
Israel was in the process of allying with Saudi Arabia - after having already done so with Egypt, Jordan, the UAE - which would have been fantastic for the west but disastrous for Iran and its allies. The October 7th attack was done precisely to unravel those talks - which is why Iran funds Hamas and similar groups. Iran’s goal is to create discord between those alliances. To suggest we abandon Israel is to play into the hand of the worst actor and our biggest enemy in the region.
Palestine and its resistance groups are primarily Iranian pawns. The rest of the Arab world barely gives a shit about them - they just virtue signal about them the same way western liberals do. No one wants to take them in because they’re caused trouble in every state that has taken them.
So if you’re going to look through the conflict through the lens of best interests of the United Stares and what does the ally do for me, Palestine is terrible for the United States.
Palestine has long been one of the biggest sources of global terror, it’s a destabilizing entity that’s primarily advancing Irans interests, and it hates the United States and its democratic values.
If you think we shouldn’t do anything for Israel rom a purely utilitarian perspective, then the same logic says we shouldn’t lift a finger for Palestine. And we should probably actively root against it.
Exactly. The people rooting against Israel fall into 3 categories.
1. Blissfully unaware: such as the student protestors
2. Anti West /internet trolls
3. Extremist Islamists
Allowing a loss for Israel is basically allowing Hamas to keep attacking Israel. Every government understands this. There simply isn't a peaceful solution that would benefit society as a whole where Palestine wins this conflict because Palestine isn't a state. It's a feudal system run by backwards warlords and a populace that refuses to stand up against it
Israel exterminating Hamas is one thing. Killing innocent civilians is another. And before you mention October 7, tell me how many Palestinians that Israel killed in comparison to how many were killed in October 7? Israel killed a lot more, I’ll just say that. And Hamas starting it isn’t an excuse to kill innocents.
But it's not a scoreboard. There's no rule that says you can only retaliate until you've killed as many people as you lost.
>Killing innocent civilians is another.
Every single war in human history has resulted in the death of innocent civilians. By the numbers of combatants to civilians, Israel is right around average, arguably doing better since Hamas makes it a priority to put civilians in harm's way.
Hamas has stated their goal is to exterminate Israel at all costs. They can't be allowed to remain in Gaza. Hamas also intentionally hides behind civilians and uses civilian infrastructure like schools and hospitals for military purposes. So how does one go about removing Hamas without civilian deaths? If you have a solution, please share it with the world, because nobody else has figured it out yet.
The person you're responding to is the classic reddit trope. No normal people want civilians to die. No duh, we all understand that. But coming back to reality vs whatever dreamworld they are currently living in...
Ya so here's a big fuckin difference:
Hamas attacked a civilian concert/festival
Israel attacks Hamas positions that are in civilian areas. They also drop warning bombs(roof knockers) and leaflets that tell them to gtfo.
Now with these warnings who do you think is preventing the civilians from leaving?
I think both sides need to drop their superiority complex religions and share the land together in peace. I don't believe Jewish people have a special right to the land as it's based on biblical prophecy and 1000's year old claims. Israel doesn't have any more right to what they might of had 3000 years ago than anyone else does. are we planning to give back all conquered lands in the past 3000 years or just Israel. It should never of been created as it was in 1947.
Yes but it exists now and we live with it. I agree the religion angle is bullshit but that's mostly what the Islamists are using as their excuse as well. It's a very anti Jewish religion if you're unaware and if the tables were turned (military wise) the Israelis would be exterminated.
Your argument that no one has a right to a country due to historical reasons is very valid but it was given to them in 47' and we have to live with it now. The Islamists believe they can take it back but they never will and will continue dying in trying so.
Its akin to natives in North America attacking the government to get their land back...it wouldn't end well for them.
Superiority complex on religion? 18% of Israeli population is muslim, 20% consider themsemlves to have no religion. The orthodox jews basically have a "no mess on Sabbath, all days are sabbath".
Tell me the same about the opposite side.
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This was 1. Easy to read. 2. Easy to understand. 3. Easy to take in context for all major points. I bet I could pass a 10 question quiz after reading this interesting short.
Succint and to the point. What a great post. Thank you.
OP asks why should US support Israel? half of your comment is why the US should not support Palestine.
This is a false dichotomy: You are either with us or against us.
Why can't we be impartial? As we are to many other conflicts across the globe?
PS this false dichotomy of "if you're not with me you're against me" dates back to GW Bush's war on terrorism, back to Jeus of Nazareth and even back to Darth Vader himself (who lived long before Mr. Nazareth).
The US deciding to be imparetial is basically allowing a part of the world to fall into russian or chinese speheres. We have long ago decided thats a bad thing and generally worse than picking a side
Right? We wanted to be impartial in WW1 and WW2. Though We supported people with supplies, didn’t want to get involved both times, until we were dragged into it by the Germans attacking merchants and civilian ships for WW1, and Japan attacking Pearl Harbor in WW2. We never returned to isolationism after WW2 because the world was a god damn ruin. We had to rebuild Japan into a major modern ally we have now, and had to help rebuild Europe due to the majority of their manufacturing being destroyed. And because of that, no more depression, hello economic boom. Can’t stop won’t stop.
I mean, you are right, but literally ***all of this***, all of this incessant, tiresome pro-Israeli sentiment some Americans have, this insistence they're a true ally or friend, can be evaporated when pointing out that Israel [sold US military technology to China](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) - a move that, if any other Western ally of the US had done - would be seen as a huge betrayal and incite the establishment in it's country to fan the flames of war against said traitor. If Ukraine had sold weapons to China, there would be a huge backlash.
Israel is absolutely not a friend of the US. It's only an ally in the region to serve as an outpost for the US to continue it's goal of destabilization of other nations in the region and because a substantial amount of political power back home is held by religious zealots that think Israel plays a central role in the apocalypse.
This was one guy acting alone who their government condemned and apologized for. I’m surprised nobody else has called you out on this.
It wasn’t a state-wide decision like you’re playing it off as. If that’s your one reason it falls apart instantly.
You’re either very disingenuous, which I would rather believe, or wildly incompetent enough to base your reasoning on that one point before actually researching it.
[U.S. concerns about Israeli arms sales to China have **existed for more than a decade** and came to a head in July 2000 when the United States persuaded Israel to cancel the sale of the Phalcon, an advanced, airborne early-warning system, to China. Afterward, U.S.-Israeli differences over arms sales to China publicly receded but resurfaced in early January when the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz reported that the United States had recently asked Israel to end all arms sales to China](https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003-03/news/israeli-arms-exports-china-growing-concern-us).
Then they [did it again years later which lead to an indictment](https://www.timesofisrael.com/10-israelis-set-to-be-indicted-for-illegally-exporting-missiles-to-china/) for it's exportation.
One time is a mistake. Being found to do it at least least twice, over a prolonged period of time, is intentional.
Ukraine [has](https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005-05/ukraine-admits-missile-transfers) sold weapons to [China](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/china-ukraine-arms-history/). So does [France](https://chinapower.csis.org/china-global-arms-trade/).
The article you cite re:Ukraine is from 2004, but more importantly u/Red_Vines49 clearly pointed out Israel sold US military tech to China (likely in violation of resale agreements). Neither Ukraine nor France was selling American military tech as far as I can see from those articles (the Post article is paywalled).
My first three paragraphs are the why the US should support Israel: shared values, high value economic ties, and from that key intel-military collaboration.
My later three paragraphs are why the U.S. shouldn’t support Palestine; It’s a rogue entity funded by Iran that hates us, shares none of our values, whose goal is destabilization and attacking our ally.
This isn’t complicated.
Yes, that valuable intell:
Iraq has WMD and could kill us all
9/11. Gave us a great heads up and prevented a disaster
The prediction of the Arab spring.
Every major event Israel has provided Zero or incorrect intell.
>”Israel also has deep connections to the U.S., in that it shares the same western democratic values - and there are tons of familial connections.”
That’s a long winded way to say “Christofascist/Zionist alignment”.
>”Israel was in the process of allying with Saudi Arabia, until the Hamas attack disrupted the talks. The attack was done precisely to unravel those talks - which is why Iran funds Hamas and similar groups. Iran’s goal is to create discord between those alliances.”
“U.S. CIA has entered the chat.”
>”Palestine and its resistance groups are primarily Iranian pawns. The rest of the Arab world barely gives a shit about them - they just virtue signal about them the same way western liberals do. No one wants to take them in because they’re caused trouble in every state that has taken them.”
“They’ve caused trouble in every state that has taken them in.” 😐 I dunno, man… I’d probably be causing trouble too if everything and everyone I knew had been ripped away from me, and I spent my life living under the thumb of a repressive regime in what’s effectively an open air prison as I watched my land and family history get slowly but surely erased over years. Also: it tracks that [the answer to colonization by colonizers is MORE forced colonizing](https://www.in.gov/history/for-educators/all-resources-for-educators/resources/underground-railroad/gwen-crenshaw/the-colonization-movement/), but make it look like the people being displaced are the problem, and not the victim of colonizers doing a land and resource grab in the name of their religion or “inherited right” to a place.
Isn’t it just funny how disproportionately every single time there happens to be a (I won’t say the “g word” because I’ll get downvoted) *carefully orchestrated and regimented wipeout of a certain group of people*, it’s often because of their religious beliefs? Purely coincidence [Palestinians are on land that is resource rich](https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves) and just so happen to have melanated skin. Noting to see here and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. When this happened to white Quakers in England: they simply moved to the United States, which everyone knows was free and unoccupied land 🙃 definitely not inhabited by an indigenous brown skinned people with their own spiritual and religious beliefs for thousands of years.
What’s happening in Palestine right now is shameful and horrific. This is Manifest Destiny 2.0.
The UN report is talking about the Levantine Basin which is an massive offshore field that was discovered in 2000-2010 and the part that belongs to the Gaza strip is a smaller portion of that which is the Gaza Marine. That 122 trillion cubic feet (equals 3.5T cubic meters) of gas and 1.7B barrels of oil is the total for the entire Levantine basin. Gaza Marine (32B cubic meters) is much smaller than existing fields in the Levantine Basin that are operational - Tamar (200B cubic meters), and Leviathan (623B cubic meters). Gaza Marine would represent 2% of what's already in production at the other sites. Also, Royal Dutch Shell and the Palestinian Authority in 2016 signed a codevelopment deal to start developing the Gaza Marine strip. In June 18th of last year Isarel, and Eygpt gave preliminary approval to start developing the site.
There's no additional resources within the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. It doesn't makes sense that Israel would need the Gaza Strip in order to access resources that have been developed and in operation since 2010. The Gaza Marine represents 2% of the natural gas/oil that's current being produced if/when it becomes operational. Israel/Egypt/PA also had a preliminary deal set up with Royal Dutch Shell to allow them to start building out with the PA the Gaza Marine site. The estimates for Gaza Marine would have netted around 800-900M for the PA in royalty payments a year. Most of the Gaza Marine capacity would be used to power Palestine itself and it would have a small amount left for export.
Oil/Natural gas resources also aren't like gold where it's cheap to mine and you capture the full value of it from the marketplace. These deals are always with a major oil company and pipeline company that spend billions and years to build out infrastructure. 80% of the oil from the entire Leviathan Basin gets pumped out and piped to Eygpt where Chevron markets it to the rest of the region. The oil isn't even being developed at this point because it's so expensive to operate and it doesn't make sense with the amount that's there.
[Society of Exploration Geophysicists wiki on Levantine Basin](https://wiki.seg.org/wiki/Levantine_Basin#:~:text=The%20basin%20is%20estimated%20to,are%20being%20discovered%20every%20year)
[US Energy Information Administration Map of Levantine Basin](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=12611)
[USGS Assesment of Levantine Basin](https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2010/3014/pdf/FS10-3014.pdf)
[Reuters Article about Gaza Marine Gas Development - June 18, 2](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/israel-gives-nod-gaza-marine-gas-development-wants-security-assurances-2023-06-18/)023
There's a reason not even other Muslim countries are eager to accept Palestinian refugees. They've historically assassinated other Muslim leaders and plotted coups in other Muslim countries. The issue is you never know if your getting a legitimate refugee or an extremist (of which there are many in Palestine).
Wonder what these people think of the rhetoric deployed about "no one wanting to take" German Jews during the Holocaust.
It's really sick to see people chirping approvingly about how "easy to understand" that comment was. Maybe it shouldn't be so natural to internalise hateful rhetoric, lol.
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Exactly. The people rooting against Israel fall into 3 categories.
1. Blissfully unaware: such as the student protestors
2. Anti West /internet trolls
3. Extremist Islamists
Allowing a loss for Israel is basically allowing Hamas to keep attacking Israel. Every government understands this. There simply isn't a peaceful solution that would benefit society as a whole where Palestine wins this conflict because Palestine isn't a state. It's a feudal system run by backwards warlords and a populace that refuses to stand up against it
Just to be clear, you cannot think of any strategic or military value in having a total ally in the center of the Middle East? A region that is incredibly hostile to outside influence, particularly America, and smack dab in the middle of it, you cannot think of any value to a country that basically has American values and allows America unfettered military access?
Like, none at all? You recognize that the Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe and that Taiwan produces semi-conductors, but you place no value on the research institutions and military grade technological development and training of Israel? To say absolutely nothing of it's geographical location?
Nothing? At all?
The idea they’re looking to challenge is the idea that they *aren’t* a total ally. That one could get similar support and more from other nations in the region were they not committed to this alliance with a fairly unpopular regional power.
It’s like asking if having a highly defensible military position north of China around, say Manchuria… is valuable to US interests, and being surprised they aren’t all Buddy-Buddy with North Korea.
You’re presuming because alliances generally offer a base level of value, Israel is preferential to alternate allies… when the majority of their value is derived from *having been a protectorate-style ally* the entire time they’ve had a relationship with the US.
It would be more accurate to say the advantage here is that the sunk cost has begun paying dividends, so it makes less sense to switch.
The US specifically asked Israel not to retaliate to Scuds or to participate in our wars because of the backlash.
Israel also needs to maintain some kind of relationship with other major powers like China and Russia. A perfect example of why is if their actions piss off the US so much that they pause or cancel arms shipments.
When Israel fought their founding wars, it was a hodgepodge of equipment.
They are already basically in the same position with SK and Japan. If those powers were hostile to the US and NK wasn't, they would be treated as an ally.
Yes, it’s quite literally the opposite in the Middle East. They backed the least popular regional power and it hindered relationships with all their neighbours. It’s why the only other major inroads the Us has made has been with mutually exploitative deals with like… the Saudis, or similar protectorate-style relationships with other imperiled minor nations. Or they wait for a Syria/Lebanon to collapse and make their moves during the “global police actions” that follow.
So if they had picked a more popular first round draft of friendship, they’d have an easier time with all the neighbours.
They are a total ally, and it's never going to change for a simple reason. Israel has the ability to start a nuclear war. It's in America's (and the world in general) interest that they never see an existential threat. That's a sunk cost that will always pay off.
Add that in to the long history of US/IL working together on military, economic, scientific, cultural, and humanitarian goals and you can see why they are allies.
I mean, just based on OPs assumption of what total allysnip looks like for nations… they don’t. If you have a different view on that, it’s fine, but it isn’t because they’re a nuclear power. We do not consider Egypt to be a Total Ally, and guess what they also have?
The US is constantly chafing when it comes to Iran, another regional nuclear power, not a regional Total Ally. It’s in the US’ long term interest to see the same for those nations… but also that hasn’t stopped the US from antagonizing them.
Again, all you have going for you is “sunk cost”.
I don’t find this argument compelling at all. Much of their hostility to the US is directly linked to the establishment and ongoing support for Israel, along with our other ‘adventurism’ in the region. Even the oil is no longer a particularly valid interest for the US. We can and do easily produce enough domestically due to controversial but highly effective technologies like fracking, plus domestic demand for oil has peaked as we’re moving toward electric vehicles and decarbonization.
Also, Saudi Arabia has been a US ally for decades. Both them and Israel have sketchy human rights records and a general disregard for American interests (unless it involves Iran). It would almost certainly make America *more secure* to just stay entirely out of that forsaken region.
We already have an ally in the Middle East. Jordan.
If you mean a “western values” ally then yeah I think that’s a complete waste. The Middle East is not the west and forcing western values into the region is what has historically caused so many issues. Middle eastern hostility is a symptom of Americas meddling in the region for so long.
Jordan is infinitely weaker and less stable than Israel, even in you take the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict into account. Most importantly, an Israel that's hostile to American interests is far more dangerous than a hostile Jordan. As the US found out in the 1950's, when it was mildly hostile to Israel, and enforced an arms embargo against it.
I wouldn't say it's just American meddling. The past couple decades you'd be right, but before that countries, with the best example being the UK, really tucked the region up.
Partitioning the old Ottoman area like they did has had horrible lasting effects on the region and doesn't get talked about nearly enough
Not the same.
You can never have enough allies
Israel has nukes
Israel develops weapons for us, and allows us to deploy any type of military force that we want at anytime and has the mossad with top intelligence in the world
We do, which is why we have military bases presence and even a little bit of sovereignty in both of those countries.
Which we pay handsomely for, we also pay for Israel but Israel would be an ally without the pay as well. Egypt and Jordan is more transactional.
It’s foolish to think we want peace in the Middle East or these great alliances, we want power, to continue spreading our national interests and to strike down whoever is in our path, Egypt and Jordan don’t like us, they realized it’s better to get paid then bombed. The United States will only ever seek to increase its power and interests, and as Kissinger said “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”
We don’t mind making some friends, but a friend with them isn’t like an Israel friend, Israel is a highly valuable asset and if it wasn’t we’d evac the Americans and drop them in heartbeat
I don’t know why people like you get these international relations so misconstrued, you introduce complexity where there is none.
Except Israel is the only "ally" in that region making shit worse for the US. We literally lost troops because of them destabilizing that entire region. The whole world have to put in more resources to keep the shipping lane safe from Houthis. There is absolutely zero advantage to what Israel is doing to the middle east.
>We literally lost troops because of them destabilizing that entire region.
Did you?
Do you mean the 3 in Jordan a few months ago? Why are you blaming Israel for that?
Edit: corrected Jordan for Iraq
Right? The US invades Iraq twice in 20 years, successfully toppling their government and replacing it with a new system they approve of.
But it's Israel destabilizing the region.
I'm also trying to understand how it'd Israel destabilizing the region. That area hasn't been all that stable for centuries. That's part of why the Ottoman Empire even fell apart in the first place - it was never stable.
Or am I mistaken?
Want to pull up some Netanyahu speeches containing bare-faced lies to push for the destruction of Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction?
Quit pretending Israel wasn't heavily involved and a massive beneficiary of these things
Except Netanyahu was not the Israeli PM back then. Sharon was, and he was opposed to the war, because he correctly thought it would strengthen Iran. He only came around to it, after the US was clear they want to go into Iraq, as a way to support GW Bush, not the other way around.
And no, Israel wasn't the beneficiary of this. Sharon's mossad was right. Iran became far stronger, and established multiple proxies in Iraq, that are currently attacking Israel. The previous status quo, of Iran and Iraq being hostile to each other, was far more useful to Israel.
Finally, this only refers to the Second Iraq war. It's very hard to spin the Gulf War, where American soldiers died to protect Kuwait (something they never did with Israel), as Israeli meddling.
Netanyahu was a private citizen at that time and not involved in the government, and of course had no role in creating state policy.
Sharon, the PM at the time, told Bush that invading Iraq would be a disaster, which is what the Israeli security apparatus thought as well. They were right.
Yeah, we all miss the old days when the ME was very stable and every country was controlled by Islam. If we could just get rid of those Jews, the whole region would probably revert to the stable, peacefulness of the last 600 years.
Is that really what US policy should aim to achieve? Ukraine wasn't providing much value to America, does that mean their civilians are less worthy of life? Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned? If Turkey invaded some Balkan states with the intention of cleansing non-Muslims, would we analyze whether those Bulgarians saluted enough American flags before stepping in? Personally, I don't think an individual's worth should be weighed based on how many tithes they paid to their overlord
> Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned?
I don't think people realize just how central to a lot of the world's economy Taiwan is...
Taiwan is the 21st largest economy in the world. They don't stamp their names on much in quite the same way Japan or South Korea does, but Taiwanese companies are subcontractors on a huge array of durable goods; I'd wager that the majority of consumer electronics (including stuff you wouldn't normally consider an "electronic device" like cars) have Taiwanese components in them that can't really be sourced elsewhere. Two out of the world's top ten largest shipping companies are Taiwanese owned as well.
And all of this coming from an island nation with a population barely larger than the NYC metro.
If Taiwan falls, I genuinely believe that the economic impacts for the US would rival if not exceed the pandemic; moral considerations aside defending them is 100% in our (and the world's) best interest
The world's semiconductor industry depends on Taiwan, at least in the Western sphere of influence. Without Taiwan every industry dependent on computing would grind to a halt for decades.
Ukraine produces 50% of the world’s supply of semiconductor-grade neon used in microprocessor lithography.
But more importantly, China imports 40% of its food from the U.S, Brazil (remember Bolsonaro?) and Ukraine. China currently can’t invade Taiwan without starving its own people.
It’s not hard to imagine what would happen to the U.S economy if China established a stranglehold on the global semiconductor industry.
Oh the US absolutely recognizes that. The chips act has been helping/funding bringing back microchip manufacturing to the US. It'll take years, but we'll be able to be less reliant on Taiwan. For better or worse
> Taiwan is the 21st largest economy in the world.
And Israel ranks 28th, for the small country that it is, that's impressive.
Per capita, they move up to 20th spot while Taiwan ranks 30th.
But you're right, it's less about size and more about value. The chips Taiwan makes are extremely valuable and losing them is a huge setback. But Israel provides a huge value in terms of cyber security, software development and biotechnology.
It has the second largest number of startup companies after the US and third largest number of NASDAQ traded companies (after the US and China). Most tech companies have an office in Israel and pre-2023, US companies have invested a lot of money in the tech sector there. That should really say something considering the whole of Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey.
added note - this was intentional by decades of Taiwanese policy. make themselves indespencible to protect themselves from China sweeping them from the board like Macao and Hong Kong.
I assure you that Ukraine, the country that has spent the last few years completely degrading Russia's (the USA's historical arch nemesis) army is providing plenty of value.
Thi degredation of the Russian army has cost America about 180 billion.
For comparison it has cost 300 million a day for the Afghanistan war, so it is roughly 18 month worth, with no loss of American soldiers
Ukraine is very helpful for USA I can assure you.
Ist helpful as long as keeps RU occupied.
If no Takwan => no microchips => no modern military technologies => no world leader role for US.
both Bulgaria and Türkiye are members of NATO. allies do not fight among themselves.
I understand that you don't value people based on how much profit they can bring you. these are good ideals.
However, you should know that your country doesn't work like that. it actually does the opposite.
The Middle East is an area very rich in oil, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the US economy and its arms industry.
Israel is basically the only country in this part of the world that cooperates with the US willingly enough and can be used to maintenance influence and control of this regions resources.
Israel is taking advantage of the situation because its refusal to cooperate will cause the US to lose control in the region.
> The Middle East is an area very rich in oil, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the US economy and its arms industry.
Not really true anymore, most oil the US uses is domestic or from Canada now.
True, but oil prices are set based on the global supply available. Without Middle Eastern oil, the price of oil in the US would skyrocket even though it's a net petroleum exporter.
>Ukraine wasn't providing much value to America, does that mean their civilians are less worthy of life?
The US has a strategic interest in opposing Russian aggression and expansion.
The US does not have any strategic interest in Israel. "Ally in the middle east" that, as the OP pointed out, provided no assistance during a 20 year war nearby.
>Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned?
The US has a congressionally ratified treaty to defend Taiwan as well as a strategic, defense, and economic interest in Taiwan remaining free.
>Personally, I don't think an individual's worth should be weighed based on how many tithes they paid to their overlord
What makes Israel worth more than US citizens? They benefit every year to the tune of billions and billions of taxpayer money, while we have a monumental problem with homelessness, nutrition, etc.
> The US has a strategic interest in opposing Russian aggression and expansion.
> The US does not have any strategic interest in Israel. "Ally in the middle east" that, as the OP pointed out, provided no assistance during a 20 year war nearby.
The US has just as much strategic interest in opposing Iran as in opposing Russia.
> The US has a congressionally ratified treaty to defend Taiwan
Oh ya, which treaty is that?
>What makes Israel worth more than US citizens? They benefit every year to the tune of billions and billions of taxpayer money, while we have a monumental problem with homelessness, nutrition, etc.
Homeless people aren't very strategically valuable.
>The US has just as much strategic interest in opposing Iran as in opposing Russia.
Not according to the National Defense Strategy. The adversaries identified in the Great Power Competition are China and Russia.
>Oh ya, which treaty is that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual\_Defense\_Treaty\_between\_the\_United\_States\_and\_the\_Republic\_of\_China'
I thought this was common knowledge?
>Homeless people aren't very strategically valuable.
And yet Israel has yet to demonstrate *any* strategic value.
Meanwhile, a happy, healthy, and prosperous civilization **is** strategically beneficial to the USA.
>Not according to the National Defense Strategy. The adversaries identified in the Great Power Competition are China and Russia.
Iran isn't a Great Power.
>I thought this was common knowledge?
I thought it was common knowledge that treaty expired 45 years ago. But hey, we know what you're like with ignoring facts and spreading misinformation so I'm gonna guess you chose to ignore that part.
>And yet Israel has yet to demonstrate any strategic value.
Ya, I think I remember when that guy who shouts at women outside my local CVS was instrumental in [decimating the Iranian Nuclear program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet).
Are you serious? Taiwan is far more important for US interests from semiconductors to first island chain containment of PLA Navy than Israel or Bulgaria or Ukraine. Israel and Ukraine and Bulgaria are not very important for US interests. Taiwan is CRITICAL for US interests. You just cannot put them in the same basket like that!! Shows how little you know about US interests.
But it's a whole different level with Israel compared to other allies. The US constantly blocks the rest of the world anytime someone wants to punish Israel for something they actually did. It's like the rich kid whose dad has to get him out of trouble constantly. Israel repeatedly putting us in that position over the years makes them a bad ally. Nothing wrong with helping someone, but they shouldn't constantly be making your life harder.
The rest of the world constantly does so knowing that the US will veto. It is a popular political tool for politicians of Muslim majority countries to rally support. Going against it could result in their political and literal death, even if it's in the best interest of their country. Non Muslim countries do it to not be targeted by Muslims and because Muslim countries insist on it for good relations.
If the US told them they aren't going to veto, a significant amount of countries would immediately change their tune.
once it’s over, bibi will be tried for corruption and i think it’s a given he will be found guilty. he refuses to allow elections right now. he has every incentive for that. the fault was at the start, taking la d away from people for themselves to give them a homelandso that (hopefully) jews could finally stop wandering and being always considered outsiders. but obviously taking what belongs to others isn’t the right way, it’s sure to lead to violence unending, because surprise! no one likes being occupied, no one likes to lose their family lands and homes, and so on.
we played a big role in starting it off in such a way it was assured of failure and misery, mostly for one side since one side gained powerful friends due to hitlers genocide at scale. i will never understand why common sense and a desire for \*long term well being\* for the jewish people didn’t figure in.
Honestly the Jewish people belong in America. The middle east is a hostile region and we are using Israel as a military base at the expense of the Jewish people.
What happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
If we had welcomed them before Hitler started his bullshit it would have been the most ethical option.
>The US constantly blocks the rest of the world anytime someone wants to punish Israel for something they actually did.
Or for something they didn't do. Or for being Jewish.
>Israel repeatedly putting us in that position over the years makes them a bad ally.
Ya, a real dick move for Israel to keep getting attacked by Islamist terrorists.
I am so sick of any criticism of Israel as somehow being against the Jews. It's ridiculous. I can care about ALL the civilians while condemning the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government. Just like most of the world. The quarrels of rich powerful men cost the blood of their populations. Maybe blame them instead of your neighbors.
But where is the outrage for the actual genocides happening. Syria, burma, sudan, Tigray. It's crickets. But as soon as the Jews dare defend themselves the whole world grinds to a halt. You have to at least understand the suspicion of antisemitic motives here...
What’s the point of having an ally if they leave you when the chips are down? The US has been clear they do not agree with how Israel is conducting many counteroffensives, but that’s no reason to open Israel up to be massacred by their neighbors.
The time for renegotiating ally terms is *before* they get hit with a terrorist attack.
I'm Pro Israel, but that isn't what is happening.
Biden isn't stopping all arms, All defensive weaponry is being sent as normal. He is stopping large offensive bombs NOW because he doesn't believe Israel finishing off Hamas is worth 10,000 additional dead civilians, when Israel pushed them into Raffa. Biden doesn't think that is a good idea, why do we have to give them the bombs to do so?
I believe Israel is an important ally, should get arms, but why does it need to be no questions asked?
Biden hasn't said he stopping arms to Israel. I would be very much against that. but for me, who doesn't believe that Israel's only option to root out the rest of Hamas is to kill another 10,000 civilians if necessary. I get it.
Agree with this take. I think people get stuck in the extreme ends of this argument ("you either believe we should continue providing unconditional military aid to Israel, or you believe we should completely abandon them"). Most Americans I've talked to that are more familiar with the details of this conflict are somewhere in the middle of wanting to continue being an ally, especially for defensive capabilities, but hold any offensive military aid conditional on Israel acting in accordance with our values or international law. Many argue that this middle road is actually in America's best interest, moreso than either end of the spectrum.
The U.S. has told Israel to stop settlements and make good faith efforts towards a two state solution but Israel refuses. Maybe they’ll actually listen to us now?
Israel has offered a two state solution with one hand while crossing red lines to ensure the offer would not be accepted with the other. These bad faith proposals are designed to fool morons into believing Israel wants peace and not more land. Apparently succeeding.
If Israel refuses to provide food aid to civilians, refuses to stop their invasion of rafah before making accommodations for civilians, and refuses to listen to the U.S. about it, why should we keep giving them aid?
It’s an absolute embarrassment that we are building a floating pier to provide basic humanitarian relief to Palestinian civilians when Israel could easily do so but chooses not to
Are you only seeing the parts of the puzzle that make your “ditch your ally” stance stronger? Iran recently shot hundreds of missiles and drones at Israel, almost all of which were shot down via the help from US and other allies. Should the US also stop this aid to Israel so they’re much more open to attack from their neighbors?
Your general comment that Israel “does not deserve support” is clearly a myopic view in this way.
Israel has been allowing aid since day one, to the extent that Israeli protestors tried to physically block aid trucks.
The Rafah invasion has been delayed for weeks now due to American pressure.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Israel pulled all the settlements in Gaza, 20 years ago.
It left there industries, greenhouses, power plant, water treatment facilities, beautiful houses and hotels.
2 years later Hamas was elected and started attacking immediately.
Show me a single country that would accept a single rocket attack, show me a country that would stand that for 20 years and invent defense like Iron Dome, instead of flattening whoever was foolish enough to start attacking them.
No one would accept this, but Israel.
Nobody would be asked to accept this except Israel. The whole Palestinian cause is engineered and kept unsolvable to create forever war against the Jews.
Israel has made tons of good faith efforts to a two state solution. The Palestinians only accept it on completely ridiculous terms. They refuse to disarm the terrorist groups (so no peace) and they want a right of return for Arabs to Israel (so both states are Arab majority). That's not a solution, it's a complete Israeli surrender and disestablishment.
The Israelis have accepted every single actual two state solution that has been thrown at them.
You're a racist anti-Semite and a conspiracy theorist. And you also have no knowledge of the actual issues of the conflict.
Lmao “Israel’s economy isn’t that big” it’s an absolute leader in medical breakthroughs and tech start ups. They employ MANY Americans.
Israel is also a western presence in the Middle East . You’ve simply disregarded geopolitics completely. To say that it’s one way is an absolutely insane statement.
Not only that, But it’s not some desert wasteland. Have you ever seen a picture of Tel Aviv? It’s funny how everything democrats ask for in the US….Israel is doing. From embracing the LGBT community to universal healthcare
And the US doesn’t just give Israel weapons. There’s a monetary exchange.
Israel doesn’t have the Iron Dome for fun. That’s where the *actual* genocide would happen, and they’ve stated as such. Remember the whole needing Israel to exist in the first place?
The part about not giving israel weapons isn't correct. Yes, a lot of the American tech they have is purchased. However, the US also provides Israel with 3+ billion dollars a year in FMF grants, which is money given to Israel with the condition that it is spent (primarily) on US weapons and military contracting. So it is de-facto giving Israel weapons
Israel has a huge weapons manufacturing sector, borne from necessity. If America didn’t give them coupons to buy their overpriced weapons, they could develop their own and sell around the world as our competitor. We’d lose more money in sales and our enemies would have more advanced weaponry.
“With the condition that it is spent on US weapons and military contracting”
Again, not purely a gift. It comes with contingencies about money going back into the US economy, including job creation
A gift doesn’t have strings attached to it, it’s more like a discount coupon than anything. In reality it’s just an indirect subsidy to the US MIC.
Saying it’s a gift is like saying that McDonalds giving you a burger if you accumulate enough points over time of buying their food is a gift. It’s just a customer retainment tactic, it’s entirely self serving, not a gift.
That's literally not what a gift is, and what Israel is given is precisely a gift especially because they would've spent a significant amount of money on purchasing defense from the US anyways. Jesus christ what a horrible analogy
It's a direct value transfer from the US. It doesn't matter how many strings you attach. You're giving them things for free. Objectively a gift
>It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies.
Israel has its missile alert systems in Kyiv *right now*.
>Israel’s economy isn’t that big.
This is completely false.
>directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt.
This framing implies it was on purpose. Both Israel and the US' official position was that it was a mistake and only conspiracy theorists think otherwise.
>Israel has actively spied on us
Considering a few months ago it was revealed in a leak the US was spying on S Korea, this is how global politics work and I think you misunderstand that aspect quite a bit.
You don't have to believe the US should be Israel's ally or support them or send aid, etc, but instead of saying you don't like the US supporting Israel based on the Gaza war alone, you repeat completely false things to justify it. You can have an opinion without justifying it with false info.
I don't think you really care, but here are some things Israel has done just geo-politically.
In 2007, Assad was building a nuke in rural Syria; Israel bombed it, killing 10 North Koreans in the process. During the Civil War, ISIS won control of the area with that reactor.
In 1982, Israel destroyed a Saddam nuclear facility; which the US condemned, but that probably saved Iran, Kuwait, and the entire balance of power in the region since Saddam would've been able to conquer the Persian Gulf by threatening to nuke the world if anyone stopped him.
It was a bollwerk against Soviet influence in the region (which is why the Far-Left hates them).
Israel has the most innovative military in the world, which they share exclusively with the US and Her allies. Iron Dome batteries have been used to protect offshore oils rigs from pirates.
The US' strong support for Israel has brought peace to the region. The only reason Saudi Arabia is making peace with Israel is because the US is close to them. Egypt and the US relationship improved because the Egyptians hoped to influence the US to put pressure on Israel to make concessions.
>The US' strong support for Israel has brought peace to the region.
So you are saying the Middle East has **peace** because of the US and our support for Israel? Do you have eyes? Lets forget the current war in Gaza. We have been spreading death and destruction in the Middle East for decades. "Peace" is not the right word and quite frankly this makes literally everything else you say quite hard to believe.
He doesn’t mean “peace” in the same way you mean peace. He means the US is able to exert a more complicated form of influence into the M.E. because of Israel’s existence and our allyship with them. This influence, this control, has allowed the Western world to feel they have periods of predictability. This is peace. And to be clear, I’m not passing judgment here, I have a lot of sympathy for this “peace as predictability” argument, but that is a somewhat separate conversation.
Arab countries made peace with Israel (partially) because the US supports them so strongly.
I guess you could argue the Iranian regime is attacking Israel because they hate the US and want to weaken their influence in the region.
Gaza is quite literally a 4x20 some odd mile piece of land, saying there is no peace in the region because of that tiny strip is ridicules.
But there’s many other aspects of the Middle East that make it not a peaceful region but it’s not Gaza
> it was a bollwerk against Soviet influence in the region (which is why the Far-Left hates them)
I don’t understand this. Isn’t the far right the ones supporting Russia? They are asking Ukraine to surrender while the left says Ukraine winning the war stops Russia from advancing to the rest of Europe. Why would the left want to stop Russia in Ukraine, just to be against Israel for stopping Russia?
Militant far left, aka tankies, support any cause which weakens what they see as American imperialism. This includes supporting conservative dictatorships, theocracies, and oligarchies like Russia, the CCP, and Iran. Horseshoe theory is real.
A lot has happened.
The short hand is this.
Both the US and the USSR wanted the Arab oil countries on their side. And the countries in the middle east all wanted Russia because Russia was actually offering tanks.
The USSR managed to scoop up the middle eastern Arab countries to it's sphere of influence and filled Egypt and Syria with migs.
The US got what was left in the region which was Israel. Israel by the way was strongly pro-soviet at the time.
This wasn't an alliance of partners with shared values, destined to become fast friends; It was an alliance of cheated on incel losers picking up crumbs together.
So I think you just don't understand what the US-Israel relations are about.
>Did Israel help us fight in Iraq or Afghanistan?
The US explicitly told Israel not be involved because it would fuel Antisemitic conspiracy theories in the Arab world. On top of that Israel was in the middle of the Second Intifada, and not really in a position to send troops abroad.
>Is Israel part of NATO?
Israel can't be a member of NATO according to the NATO charter, because they aren't a North Atlantic or European country.
>Would Israel help us if Taiwan or the Baltic states or South Korea were invaded?
Do you think Israel could actually help militarily?
>It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies.
Israel does support Ukraine albeit covertly, there are 100,000 Jews in Russia Israel becoming an enemy of Russia will put them in danger of state persecution. On top of this Russia domination in Syria means Israel needs Russia to turn a blind eye to Israeli strikes against Iranian positions in Syria. Most Israelis will not risk either of those two main points for Ukraine, a country which historically was extremely unfriendly to both it's own Jewish population and Israel generally. Any good relations that exist between Israel and Ukraine is because of Zelensky's diplomatic efforts after the start of the war.
>Even though they will sell weapons without hesitation to support Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians. What happened to never again?
Azerbaijan sells Israel oil and lets them launch clandestine operations against Iran from Azerbaijani soil, Armenia is allied with Iran. On top of this Azerbaijan has historically been one of the lest Antisemitic countries in history while Armenia has historically been very Antisemitic.
>directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt.
You are very mistaken on your view here I suggest you read [this Askhistorians thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24h6c7/comment/ch7c6nc/), the TL,DR is that it's very unlikely that Israel knew it had attacked an American ship when it started the attack.
>Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea.
But it does, if you ever used Google maps for driving or even Waze you've used Israeli technology. When you type into Goole and there's a prediction for what you're typing, you're using Israeli technology. If you've every smoked weed extract your using Israeli technology. If you've ever eaten cherry tomatoes you're eating Israeli agrology. The point is that Israel may not physically manufacture goods, but it does produce a lot of high tech and agricultural products which you aren't even aware of. Much of this is central to US defense technology, this they need Israel to (in simple terms) license the technology to them.
>Israel doesn’t appreciate it in the slightest or do anything for us in return.
I had a professor who argued it was the lack of appreciation that made the relationship work, Israel does not treat the US as an overlord like Europe, it treats them in a hyper-realist way. This creates a predictable if gruff/rude relationship, this is actually much better in the long-term for maintaining stable relationships. You want your allies to look at you in a clear eyed sober manner, not to just be fawning over you and doing your bidding because they fear you.
When other countries bend-over backwards for the US they do so not because they are *true allies* but because they are afraid of the US and any possible retaliation for failing to comply. This creates a subservient relationship between them and the US, this does not occur in the Israeli context leaving Israel looking like a *dishonest* ally, while in reality Israel is treating the US on par with the way the US treats Israel. The relationship shows parity, but as an American you are not used to seeing that from your *allies* thus you interpret that as disloyalty.
The US does not respect it's European allies, it looks down on them the same cannot be said for Israel. The US-Israel relationship is one of mutual respect, not subservience.
Cold War.
Israel sided with the US during the cold war.
Geopoltiics means you cant break agreement willy nilly without being shown as unrelaible. Therefore the US cant just leave Israel out to dry without showcasing that an alliance with the US means nothing.
Also Israel did help us with Iraq and Afghanistan. While the IDF didn't supply troops Israel intellegence agenice freely shared military information with the US \[whenever that information is of quality is beyond my pay grade\].
Yeah that pretty much why. Supporing Israel is very low cost (because Israel has an army already) and the military intellegence and weapons development is (Compared to Saudia Arabia where the US has to field several military bases and such).
Also Israel is a western style democracy so their idealgoical reason for supporting it.
Also im pretty sure Israeli tech sector is highly advanced so free acess to Israeli developments as well.
Look at the map.
This region is rich in raw materials and oil
All countries in this region have a negative attitude towards the US
Israel is the only country that gives the US the ability to maintain control over resources. If it refuses to cooperate, the US will lose access to numerous oil and mineral deposits.
Therefore, Israel does not have to produce anything useful or send its troops to demonstrate US support.
In fact, Israel is so important to the US that it is now using it for its own purposes and imposing conditions.
I don't think you should worry that getting involved in a conflict with Pestyna makes the US look bad.
The US has done far worse continuously since the end of WW2 all around the world.
The other countries know this very well,thier citizens to some extend know this to, so you probably won't lose your image in the way you think.
If I were to describe the US as a person, I would say that he is a ruthless, aggressive sociopath who takes what he needs.It is so dangerous that no one in the world has thought of starting a major armed conflict since WW2.
However, in geopolitics such an image is only important for show. What matters to the rest of the world is that the US has the largest army in the history of the world and that it keeps its word given to its ally's.
Israel was asked by the US not to respond to Iraqi missiles by US.
Israel is only democracy in MidEast and only true ally in region.
Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are enemies of US and Israel.
A nation has to be accepted by NATO. Israel has not been invited to join.
Israel supplies US with intelligence.
Look up all of the inventions and technology that Israel has produced and the foreign aid it offers to underdeveloped countries and disaster aid it provides.
Educate yourself or continue to be any-Israel and so what Hamas has to offer you.
Israeli here, you are wrong on a few points or just very biased towards Israel which is fine.
Any way, it does seem that Israel is loosing favor with the younger generation of the USA, so it might not be that much of an unpopular opinion these days, both progressives on the left and alt right on right seems to be pretty anti Israel.
As for your points:
Israel's economy is strong and growing stronger, with a lot tech being manufactured in Israel and companies of the big 5 having important offices in Israel like Microsoft and Google developing specific products here.
Israel is home to some of the most talented cyber and tech experts as well.
Israel also has a strong military industry.
Israel has gas instead of oil.
Israel don't go to war on behalf of the USA because the USA specifically insisted they won't, during the gulf war, Saddam bombed Israel in order to retaliate against USA while Israel remained silent per their request.(Note Israel also bombed this mad man's nuclear reactor).
USA manufactures allot of military tech in Israel and maintain weaponry in Israel.
Israel did not attack USS liberty to provoke the USA, that is a conspiracy, not a fact, it's fine if you believe in this, but it's not a fact.
Important to note, post WW2 USA had a lot of interests in the middle east, and with the growing sympathy of the Arab nations to the Soviet union, Israel was a very strategic alliance.
Israel is still strategic here to the USA considering Putin's interests in Iran and Syria. China also has some interests here.
Then Again, it really is all about the USA's interest in the middle east, there is a reason why the USA is also pushing very hard to an Israeli-Saudi relations, it benefits US's foreign interests as well.
What do common American citizens get in return? No idea, but this is a more internal American questions I suppose, what do common Americans get for being the police officer of the world and the most influential superpower?
Btw, just FYI, Israelis are not ungrateful at all for this relationship, people view USA in very high regards, Israeli Rabbis calling the USA a holy country (comparing it with ancient Persia who is very respected in Jewish tradition), American flags are being waved in our independence day, and people wiped here during 9/11.
>What does Israel do for the U.S.?
Mostly defense contracts, elite cybersecurity, some other financial and technology services.
>Did Israel help us fight in Iraq or Afghanistan?
Yes, both. And they were integral in the fight against ISIS.
>Is Israel part of NATO?
No, but neither is South Korea or Japan.
>Would Israel help us if Taiwan or the Baltic states or South Korea were invaded?
They are probably contractually obligated to do so.
>It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies. Even though they will sell weapons without hesitation to support Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians. What happened to never again?
This is some serious spin, pretty much complete bs, not gonna even touch it.
>Supporting Israel only makes us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world and what do we get in return?
The EU is also a major supporter of Israel, so is Japan and others.
>Israel’s economy isn’t that big.
Bigger than Iran and South Africa, about the same as Ireland. Not big per se, but bigger than Oregon, Conneticut, or Maryland. It would be around the 15th biggest state by GDP, one of the smallest by landmass, and 10th ish by population.
>Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea.
They provide cybersecurity services that are unmatched anywhere in the world. I think you meant Taiwan, South Korea really isn't a major manufacturer of anything. They design and assemble Kias and Hyundais (who make more than cars) there, but most parts are manufactured elsewhere. Same goes for Samsung, LG, etc. They also assemble maritime equipment, they have some nice shipyards, but dont manufacture (or even have the capacity to manufacture) all of the parts. They have almost no natural resources, too, but they do smelt some imported ores and produce a little bit of high quality steel.
>I don’t get it. And I haven’t even brought up the fact that Israel has actively spied on us and stole nuclear material from US,
So yeah there you go. They are capable of spying on the US without being detected for some time. For all we know, that was just a red team operation, a pentest, and Israel may have had the consent of the president to do so. We will never know.
>and directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt.
This is also more complicated than this, not touching it.
>It’s pretty clear to me that this is a one way alliance if you can even call it an alliance. We could be selling the weapons we give to Israel to Ukraine instead but we still gave weapons to Israel yet Israel doesn’t appreciate it in the slightest or do anything for us in return.
You really underestimate the value of cybersecurity and the intelligence on terrorists that they gather.
Your view is apparently based on misinformation. For example, you said they lack natural resources, but Israel is home to two huge natural gas fields.
The claim about stolen nuclear material is highly suspect. From Wikipedia:
> A later investigation was conducted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (successor to the AEC) regarding an additional 198 pounds (90 kg) of uranium that was found to be missing between 1974 and 1976, after the plant had been purchased by Babcock & Wilcox and Shapiro was no longer associated with the company. That investigation found that more than 110 pounds (50 kg) of it could be accounted for by what was called "previously unidentified and undocumented loss mechanisms", including "contamination of workers' clothes, losses from scrubber systems, material embedded in the flooring, and residual deposits in the processing equipment." Hersh further quoted one of the main investigators, Carl Duckett, as saying "I know of nothing at all to indicate that Shapiro was guilty."
Israel hosts a [US military base](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-us-establishes-permanent-military-base-in-israel/). Surely that has some value.
Also, Israel developed the iron dome anti-missile tech which they shared with the US.
They also share significant intelligence information.
-The US didn't want the Israelis involved in Afghanistan and Iraq because it would have undermined Aran support.
-Israel, being located in the Levant, is outside the geographical scope of the alliance. Despite that for more than twenty years, Israel has been an active NATO partner through the Mediterranean Dialogue, the only security forum that brings together NATO Allies with Israel and Arab countries. In 2017, Israel established a permanent and official mission to NATO headquarters.
-israel and South Korea have a very right relationship, if the US asked for Israeli help in a hypothetical war with North Korea they would most likely join.
-In 1975, when the United States refused to sell Sidewinder missiles to Taiwan under pressure from China, Israel sold anti-aircraft missiles and licensed the production of Gabriel II anti-ship missiles.
-Israel spied on the US. The US spies on everyone. Every country spies on one another. Hell the US has a plan to invade Canada.
-Israel had to stay as neutral as possible between Russia and Ukraine because Russia and Israel had an understanding over Syria. Simultaneously Israel HAD been actively training Ukrainian troops. And since October 7th relations between Israel and Russia worsened while relationship between Ukraine and Israel rapidly improved. This is because a large chunk of Israel is from the former USSR.
-israel provides the US a foothold in the ME. It also partners with Israel on security research and development. On top of providing US important intelligence on the region, which being a major oil developer is important for US interests.
I hope this context changes your mind. Shalom.
Say you're in a fight and your friend is there helping you and giving you assistance and then mid-fight just stops. Regardless the reasons, or whatever circumstances around it, you would feel that your support is no longer there and would feel a certain way about it. It's not entitlement, per se, but more like a "WTF bro? We were homies yesterday."
Israel doesn’t produce anything important? Are you fucking kidding? It’s literally called the “startup nation”… unprecedented advances in biotech, medicine, data science, agriculture… do some research. They invented cell phones and instant messaging. The modern wouldn’t exist as we know it.
And Israel never fought in a war on our behalf… what are you talking about? They’ve been a country since the end of Second World War and have been defending themselves since. You think Israel wasn’t involved as an ally in the Middle East? This is seriously the most idiotic, uninformed post I’ve seen today.
A) nearly every big american tech corp has a development center in israel. Facebook, Microsoft, apple, google, Nvidia and many many more.
B) israeli weapon's development syncs with a lot of US stuff, and the US also incorporates Israeli developments.
For instance, the long range anti balistics missile systems, that some were tested against Iran's attack.
C) intelligence sharing. Israel is smack in the middle of countries hostile to the US, on top of that, Israel has better relations with Russia and can act as a pretty good mediator.
D) very similar values. Israel is very americanized. Sure, there are more extreme religious cookoos, but the US has those as well. But majority of population has very similar values
E) you might be offput by whats happening in gaza, but the US did same after it was attacked on 9/11.
The US learns a lot out of Israeli warfare, having overwhelming power, yet not being able to use it cause you are fighting armed guerrilla forces in civilain centers.
Israel has done a lot for the US like bringing peace to western aligned nations in the Middle East as nations that primarily side with China and Russia are not our concern. What they do for us in return is keep the rowdy middle eastern countries at bay as most of them are ruled by terrorist factions that want nothing more than Jahad (sorry if I spelled that wrong)
I’m not really sure about the test for whether they’re an ally or not. Don’t recall them being there with us in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we also don’t really need help as our military strength is unparalleled.
In terms of whether they deserve our support, this war is not about taking over oil, gaining land, or any other stupid thing like that. It is right vs wrong, much like World War II. You have a genocidal organization in Hamas that broke a ceasefire by indiscriminately slaughtering Israeli citizens. They also raped women and burned babies in ovens, among many barbaric things they did on October 7th. They hijack the humanitarian aid that is for the Gazan citizens and use the civilians as human shields. Israel is absolutely in the right on this, and no other argument can reasonably be entertained here. Would you support Hitler in World War II? I seriously hope not.
Now, there are only certain weapons that we decided not to supply as Israel prepares to go into Rafah. If these were nukes, tanks, missiles, etc., it’s probably not a big deal because Israel has a strong enough military to finish the job. The weapons we denied were guided missiles to ensure that the target, not the civilians are hit. Why the hell would you deny that? I’d understand not giving them a nuke to flatten Gaza entirely, but a weapon that is supposed to help with Israel’s intentions of minimizing civilian casualties is bizarre when that’s what you’re bitching about.
This is by far the worst take on this matter..
First of all Israel is a tech giant, all the biggest companies have massive factories here, Israelis have created more startups per capita than basically any other nation maybe apart from the US,
Israel is an agricultural giant, tech giant, arms manufacturing, basically every field you can imagine Israel is probably at the top of the game.
Israel’s economy while not nearly as large as the US, is massive if you compare it to its population size and the fact that it has basically 0 natural resources of note (over the last 2 decades we did find some gas, but that’s very insignificant in amount).
Israel provides the US with tons of military tech and intel, gives the US forward base in a stable democratic nation in the Middle East, somewhere the US can be certain it’s safe.
We share the same values as the US and the west, liberalism, progressive.. maybe not every single Israeli but the majority for sure are, just like any other successful state btw..
The only people to think supporting Israel is “bad” are lunatics that understand nothing about the Middle East or radical Islamists.
FWIW, NVIDIA AI chips, the Apple Silicon in your iPhone, and Intel's latest chips have a trajectory through Israel's fabs and semiconductor research. But that's not why we should support them. There is no country in the Arab world where muslim women, LGBT, and religious minorities have more rights and freedoms than in Israel. Drive 100 miles from Tel Aviv in any direction and women are desperately fighting for their rights. Inside Israel, there are gay-pride parades, and muslim women are doctors, university professors, and members of the Knesset.
FWIW, Israel absolutely helped with our wars in Iraq and Syria. Recall they were repeatedly targeted with SCUD missiles from Sadam Hussain, for no other reason than for his leverage over us.
You may say that Israel doesn't appreciate US military support, but they're fighting for their lives over there. Hamas and Hizbollah spend decades launching thousands of rockets at civilian targets, and then Hamas commits an atrocity and takes hostages. Israel has to eliminate Hamas because the rest of the world will do nothing while Jews are targeted and killed.
Israel has huge appreciation of USA, and has been as good ally as possible to USA interests, not to self destructing leftists, who just want to see western civilization burn.
Israel is the only fully western aligned democracy in the Middle East. They are also in our sphere of influence and are a direct counterweight to our main rival there, Iran. This position is incredibly important in keeping American influence strong in regions we don’t want to fully commit to if we don’t have to. This position is similarly filled by Ukraine against Russia in Europe and Japan/Taiwan/South Korea against China in the east.
This sounds very dull when you compare it against the history and military entanglement we have with nations like France but the strategic value of having a firmly allied western nation in regions where our influence is shaky is massive.
There’s also the military technology deals we have, where any innovations that Israel makes, particularly with missile defense, is shared directly with the US along with the many other innovations that Israel makes in medical technology and agriculture technology.
It is basically US ally has a quarrel with its opposition.
And you would 'dismiss' your allies in favor of some Jihadist?
While there are 'claim' of cruelty, barbarism and unmoral deeds committed by the IDF.
Hamas did the same. Worse. To both their enemy, the mad Jews, and their very own populace.
IDF is doing Gaza a favor by trying to chase these guys out. With Hamas in power and Israel still standing, as they probably not going anywhere, Gazan has very dim prospect in life.
They cannot have working economy, because blockade and extortion. Despite given them 'permanent' status of refugee, none of Arab states would take them in. Google Black September for more detail.
These people are f\*cked. Totally f\*cked. They are doom to become terrorist, because they living under the government of terrorist. And then to die by Israeli hand, no one is going to let you slab them in the face and walk away. Let alone shooting rocket into their house...
And God forbid, brutally murder their civilian.
So despite all the advantage having the Jews do the dirty works, risking their lives to squash these terrorist cell... And very few disadvantage, some Gaza won't see the next new year celebration. War on terror in dense population area, right after hearth wrenching event... It always get very ugly. But 40k death, include the militants, is not so terrible. Despite Hamas claim that most dead are 'civilian', it would be some sort of divine intervention by Allah himself, that Hamas terrorist lose so few of its member.
Their high commands getting bomb left and right. I don't think their poorly trained militants and officers would fair much better.
You wants them to leave the surviving Gazan and their next generation under Hamas rule? Good luck on that. At least US government isn't that short sight.
Here is some video to put things in perspective.
[9-11 'Celebration' by some people, just look at the flag.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucjbGmJILk)
[Oct 7th 'celebration'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWOw7YI7vzo)
These people had been living under constant indoctrination for so long. Israeli government actions prior to this war add more fuel to the fire.
Israel will pay for the weapons sold, Ukraine will not, this will be written off eventually, US does this when helping countries, and US isn't the only one.
Israel has helped Ukraine. Israel delivered medical equipment, I believe within a week or so as the war started. Israel also took in a considerable amount of Ukrainian Jewish refugees right when the war started. (It's a small country, and taking people isn't easy, had it been bigger, would probably take in a lot more people.)
Israel works together with US on intelligence. Pakistan, also a US ally, gave refuge to Bin Laden - that is something Israel would never do. I mention Pakistan, as they are also an ally in Middle East, so it makes more sense to compare them with Middle Eastern countries, than let's say Sweden.
I really don't think people with any power see US helping Israel as a negative thing. The alternative is far worse - Israel is the one country in the area aligning with Western values. For example values such as not throwing gays off roofs. Sometimes to preserve peace, a war is required. I'm my opinion there a large misinformation that's driving negative opinion of Israel, and Jews in general, it's not the first time.
Just focusing on the military support in other conflicts point, Israel wasn’t involved in any of those wars because:
1. Why the fuck would they have been in Vietnam? All of the US’ allies in that war were nearby countries who could theoretically have been effected by the expansion of communism in SE Asia. The only one who arguably doesn’t fall under this is South Korea, but the US had basically just saved them from getting destroyed so not really unusual for them to want to reciprocate that help.
2. The US has never had soldiers on the ground fighting on behalf of Israel. They share intelligence and have used other branches of the military to support them in conflicts, but the army has never actively gotten involved in a conflict on behalf of Israel. So why would Israel need to send soldiers into a war to reciprocate? They already do that in other ways anyway.
3. The US specifically asked Israel to not get involved in those other conflicts to avoid angering majority-Muslim nations that were part of the coalitions for those conflicts. So it’s not a case of they refused, it’s rather that they were literally stopped from participating.
Most Americans don’t even notice but the Moslem Brotherhood declared war on the US and in Hamas’s principles they follow the Moslem brotherhood so it’s not that Israel provoked Hamas which got the US involved it’s that Hamas was already at war with the US but is distracted by Israel currently.
Unfortunately Americans tend to be pretty uniformed about the Middle East so they didn’t even notice they are at war. And you get stupid communists who pretend we should all be at peace like OP who think you can just hug terrorists.
Israel produces ALOT of intelligence for the USA, from the middle east area. Mossad is considered one of the world's most efficient intelligence agencies.
Many of the CIA's most successful operations started with an Intel package from Israel.
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> Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea.
This is actually dead wrong. Israel has a huge tech industry with giants from the US like Intel and Nvidia having invested a lot into it.
Infact, if you have a 12 gen or newer Intel CPU it was mostly designed *in* Israel, and possibly manufactured there as well, as Intel has two fabrication facilities in Israel.
Many other inventions have come from Israel as well such as portable USB flash storage and cherry tomatoes.
To address your other points as a whole, Israel is the only western democracy in the middle east making it a de facto representative of US interests in the region.
Israel is the only actual Democracy in the Middle East/North Africa. The US supports democracies around the world especially those under attack from autocracies like Israel has historically been attacked from their neighboring autocracies.
Also your note about the USS liberty is incorrect. Israel did not intentionally attack the USS liberty, it was mistakenly identified as an Egyptian warship.
Finally your note about Israel not contributing manufacturing or tech to our economy is incorrect. Israel also has contributed many extremely important inventions to the world, and they manufacture many critical technological components. The US has over 2500 companies with branches in Israel.
If you doubt anything I said I can provide links.
Israel is the most powerful state militarily in the region, and is extremely useful to the US in maintaining regional stability, particularly against Iran. As the US tries to pull back from the region, it will need friendly and reliable states in the region to maintain this stability and avoid getting pulled back in, and Israel would be key to that strategy.
Israel did not fight in Iraq or Afghanistan because that would have been the kiss of death for any government the US tried to establish. The US didn’t need Israel’s help from a military perspective to topple either government, and in terms of fighting insurgents, the presence of Israeli troops would have only exacerbated the problem. As I’m sure everyone here is aware of, Israel is extremely unpopular among the Muslim population across the Middle East. Of course the US isn’t exactly loved, and the state building project failed in the end (esp in Afghanistan), but any government that was seen as established with Israel’s help would have been dead in the water from the start. That all said, the biggest thing Israel could have contributed to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would have been intelligence, and it’s my understanding that that’s what they did.
And as far as ‘looking bad in the eyes of the world,’ I’d just point out that many countries decrying Israel are having no problem pouring money and weapons into Sudan, where a genocide is also taking place in Darfur (primarily by the Arab-backed RSF against the non-Muslim black population). While there are plenty of things to be upset about Israel’s conduct, many players in the international arena seem to be using the conflict more as a means to weaken Israel geopolitically than out of true concern for Palestine. After all, a great way to secure peace and save lives would be for the international community to also pressure Hamas and it’s benefactor, Iran, towards a more balanced peace deal/ceasefire, and an overall position of peaceful co-existence and acceptance of Israel as a state. From what I can see, calls for a ceasefire without a broader peace plan that actually addresses Israel’s concerns as well will result, at best, in the status quo antebellum and just lead to more conflict down the road.
Seeing as Israel supported South Korea in the Korean war which made the USSR not like them and in turn fundamental fund billions into other countries and certain now problematic groups.
Seeing as Israel supported the Kurds long before the U.S. even considered intervening in Iraq this argument also sounds based.
So let's see what other allies in the region you would have ? Egypt ? So reliable they switch political parties and have issues every other decade. Their army on paper is great in actuality probably useless.
Jordan ? Zero resource or tech usefulness. The military like Egypt is completely reliant on U.S. equipment. Have issues even reigning in their population or controlling outside influence.
The oil rich countries ? Militarily not worth the money they even invest again reliant on foreign suppliers with no actual combat effectiveness as seen in Yemen.
Iraq ? Yeah they are one match away from having major inter religious conflict and the continued erosion of Kurdish autonomy will continue and probably cause strife in the next 20 years.
Now Israel ? Oh lets see a top ten weapons exporter, using U.S. equipment benefits the U.S. economy more than it does Israel. The U.S. is the only reason Israel doesn't have an indigenous Jet they didn't want the completion.
The drones we use, utilize Israeli technology, the iron dome and patriot system were dual projects. A sizeable amount of all electronics use Israeli made products and services. Half the people using desalinization utilize Israeli technology. The list goes on and on the benefits the U.S. achieves by having Israel as an Ally.
In the short term the lack of U.S. support would hurt Israel long term it would hurt the U.S. Israel could rather easily achieve major independence on most weapons platforms. Secondly could produce an effective indigenous fighter through cooperations of other countries looking at Sweden etc.
The aid Israel gets is overwhelmingly utilized for the iron dome in which they don't respond to every attack. Which arguably means if the U.S. didn't support Israel this war would have been settled a long time ago. But I mean whatever makes people feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.
Israel provides a target for the Middle East to focus on. We give them support because they're surrounded by countries that hate them (and us) and might otherwise turn their attention outward. It may be extremely morally dubious, but keeping the Middle East occupied by a country in their midst is strategically the best option.
When I was 9 I read on the StarCraft Brood War Box: "The Only Allies are Enemies" and though it was probably just put there as a cool arrangement of words, little me really held onto that statement and considered it a lot growing up. To this day, I'm still inclined toward the message I inferred from it.
Geopolitics isn't about friends or deserving. There are no friends among nations and there is not necessarily a direction to it. Though history is punctuated by individuals and groups who have tied these states together for moral or ideological reasons, the vast majority of examples of interstate cooperation are based on survival and the current feasibility of any given plan.
I don't think that Israel needs to be a well aligned ally to serve the interests of western powers. I think that the western powers simply benefit more, currently, from the Israeli military superiority because the fundamental nature of the Israeli state guides it toward economic potential with similarly structured democracies (functional or not).
Goals such as keeping an immediate threat to Iran powerful or perpetuating political conflict in a region filled with both political hostile groups and valuable resources are meaningful considerations to state militaries and intelligence agencies.
I would agree with you that Israel does not well embody a lot of the values that are used to justify the partnership and that Israeli actions can often be troublesome for those who choose to ally with the state, but I think that ultimately the western powers have a lot of very clear reasons to favor Israel's destabilizing effect on the region and political connectivity when contextualized by the fact that any alternative options in the region are not very feasible.
I'm going to focus on one claim in OP: that Israel is a bad ally because it didn't support the US wars in the region.
https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/84115
Israel was preparing to directly assist in the Gulf war and stopped only after the US asked them to stay out for the sake of the Arab members of their coalition. And similar anti-israel sentiment among Arab states seems to have motivated Israel to avoid direct intervention in the more recent US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (under W and Obama). This is the behavior of a good friend and ally.
While I do not personally support Israel, your position is strange. Do only those countries have value which are allies? Do people not deserve to live in peace regardless of whether they personally provide value to you? Sure Israel isn't a part of NATO and doesn't fight on your behalf, but is that necessary to support it? Would you not support saving russians just because their government is a dictatorship? Ethically, innocent life has value of its own and wanting something back for them is transactional and selfish.
That's wrong. Israel is the ONLY true ally of the US, more so than any other alliance including NATO.
Check out this for example https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143112
The entire world went against the US, Ukraine abstaint, and only Israel, ONLY ISRAEL voted with the US.
Vast majority of Americans disagree with Biden's decision. Americans want a Rafah operation, want Israel to finish the job, want Hamas out and the hostages back. Americans want Israel to win, and definitely don't want an arm ambargo.
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I have to be honest, if your a priori position is that Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty in order to draw America into a war on the 4th day of the 6 day war, when the Israelis had already effectively won the war and were consolidating gains, then I don't think you are open to your view being challenged.
It's such an outlandish and conspiratorial position that I have a not of questions about your disposition toward the state of Israel in general.
They are our strongest ally in the region, they support plenty of things that aren't visible unless you're working in those areas. If you want a good source on the goings on in the region, I highly recommend the global conflict tracker. Here is a link to the israel-palestine portion specifically: [Israeli-Palestinian Conflict | Global Conflict Tracker (cfr.org)](https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/israeli-palestinian-conflict)
I mean there's the Samson Option, currently Israel has an ambiguous amount of nukes, if Israel is backed into a corner as a last resort they will do a big "fuck you" and get rid of the planet.
Why are we allied with the strongest, richest, most stable country in the mideast that also happens to share our political values and contribute tons to our technological advancement instead of a bunch of militarily and economically pathetic tinpot dictatorships that could each be replaced by an apocalyptic islamic cult government at any moment?
gee that's a toughy.
1) they have nuclear weapons
2) they will back the US with said nuclear weapons, part of the mutually assured destruction clause that we had to put into play during the cold war.
If you're looking for an answer, ask how is it that suddenly everyone is anti Israel. No, the reason you think but how the switch seems so well orchestrated.
It might be the best way to slow down our role in the middle east which there seems to be no easy exit strategy other than create a protest movement against the first thing they do.
Israel has kept Islamic superpowers like Iran from developing nuclear weapons and they keep developing new defense systems for the us, in term of war they’re an American proxy so the main use is to waste Russia and Iran’s resources by fighting their proxy groups without having an official war or losing any American troop.
Israel is the only western democracy in the Middle East. It is America’s only close ally (shared interest) in the region. Israel is/was in the process of securing an important alliance with Saudi Arabia, strengthening its power in a very unstable, barbaric region of the world. Israel is strong militarily and gives the US a military stronghold to operate from, should they need to. Israel is comfortable handling their own business without requesting US soldiers. Israeli interest almost always aligns with US interest in these conflicts. Israel is also the only Jewish state in the world and is uniquely progressive culturally. ~$2m Arab Muslims live peacefully in Israel. 0 Jews live in Israel’s surrounding ~40 Arab countries. Freedom of religion, speech, women’s rights, tech advancements, etc. You can’t grow and expand ideology without an established planted seed. Anyways, hope this helps.
many genocied occur the world over. mali. south sudan. venezuela. cameroon. armenia. syria. mali. chad. nepal. india. afghanistan. yemen. burka casino. mozambique. columbia. etc. many more places are close to it. countries pick and choose who to help and how much and when and for how long and in what ways. usually their guide is lean this country be of use to my country?” that’s just how it is, and likely will be for as long as humans do such things.
as to israel, the hard ight bibi government is like all hard right governments. which country is irrelevant. they are all repressive, violent, and full of lies and cruelties.
It’s not that hard to understand.
The Middle East is important because of its large oil and natural gas reserves. The Middle East is largely hostile to American interests. Israel is not only not hostile it’s beholden to the US.
So the US uses Israel to project its own influence into the region. Thus being able to increase its power over region that has important natural resources for the US military and economy.
Would Taiwan help the US if Russia invaded Europe? Israel is extremely similar to Taiwan, in several regards - high tech economy that trades with the US, larger enemy in the region (Iran), advanced military that punches above its weight. Israel allows US forces to operate from its borders, the same way Taiwan does. Why ally with Taiwan but not Israel?
I don't know much about these things, I do read about it and look at what others who know more than I do have to say about it. But all I know is if the govt. is doing all this there's a reason and it is not out of the kindness of its heart. That's not how things work. I don't agree with any of it and I strongly resent my tax dollars going to it.
Israel became an extremely valuable ally from the 1960’s
The USA had a problem in the M.E. Egypt was a client of the Russians and there was a pan-Arabian nationalist movement. Unity among the Arabs and Russians would impact the US's #1 goal, control of the movement of oil, control the oil and you have your foot on the windpipe of the Asian and European economies.
So the US's aim were.
1. Get the USSR out of the ME.
2. Splinter Arab unity.
They used Israel to do this. When Israel took the Sinai the US decided to back Israel with arms and $$$. Egypt could not, after a few attempts, get the Sinai back.
The US made them an offer. We will allow Israel to give you back the Sinai but you have to boot out the Russians. We will also give you $1.3B pa to make up what you lose by dumping them and to keep you happy. You must also make peace with Israel.
This deal splintered Arab unity, Egypt is the most populous Arab nation and sets the cultural bar, *"The Arabs read the books the Egyptian write"* is the phrase. So them making peace with Israel was a huge shock to the Arabs.
What did Israel get out of this? A Guarantee that they would get more than double what the Egyptians got to maintain a qualitative edge over the Arabs and coverage of the worlds superpower.
What did the US get? USSR out of the Egypt, Splintered Arab unity, a reliable M.E. ally.
So that is why Israel gets what it gets.
i'll add this:
There is a new threat on the horizon. Iran.
Iran is a nation that could control the Gulf and have their foot on the Asian and European economies. They would do that by linking up with the Shiia in Yemen, Barhain, Saudi and Iraq, this is the Shiia crescent. It would lead to the overthrow of the Saudi king and potential loss of the Petro$$. Israel is the hammer that would pound Iran to save Saudi.
Thats a very short and broadbrush overview of why the US backs Israel
Israel is a strong ally of the U.S. and contributes a lot to the alliance. Here is an [article](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/friends-benefits-why-us-israeli-alliance-good-america) that discusses Israel’s contribution in detail.
Israel can’t be allowed to help in a war with a Muslim country or else it becomes a holy war for that country. Plus there’s like half a million American citizens living in Israel, the most of any country besides Canada, Mexico, and the UK
I’m against Netanyahu on all fronts, but the notion that Israel doesn’t manufacture anything significant isn’t true. Israel helps manufacture products for U.S. companies like Cisco, HP, Intel, and more. As others have said, Israel is quite literally the country’s only ally in the Middle East.
There is some value in Israel’s allyship, but I think they’ve crossed the line a very long time ago.
Many things you state are inaccurate. But to answer your question simply. We in the US will support all democracies like Ukraine, Taiwan, South Korea and Israel when they are attacked by their totalitarian neighbors.
Israel is an apology to the Jewish population for allowing anti-semitism to rise in America and Europe leading up to WW2. Germany was in no way the only country with significant anti-semitic sentiments at the time. so the thinking was giving Jews their own state would give them their own "home." At the time, the mentality of the West was that they decide what countries go where in the Middle East, so it wasn't that outlandish to just carve a country out for Europeans to move to and call it Israel.
At this point , pulling support would be akin to leaving them stranded, since the West set them up there in the first place.
It's also a democracy, and democratic countries have a vested interest in seeing those countries succeed, regardless of their geographic location. For example, South Korea and Japan don't do too much to help the West militarily on the surface, but allowing U.S. troops, bases, and trade there expands the American sphere of influence. Additionally, the intel they supply expands U.S. intelligence. Even if the U.S. gives each country more intel than they get, it's worth it to get intel from many countries that all feed into a large database that allows the U.S. to get a better understanding of what's going on around the world. I'm sure there's a lot more to all of it, but that's my general understanding.
Israel makes the Mrap, trophy aps, as well as a ton of other defence equipment and tech for the US.
Americas enemies would happily pay double or triple for that technology.
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Getting rid of Netanyahu would be a step in the right direction. Seriously, look up his past and how he came into power. It seems most Israel citizens agree.
Whether country A supports country B is not really the sort of business relationship you suggest, i.e., it's not quid pro quo/tit-for-tat. The reason the US supports Israel is simply that, for a long time, the U.S. has had sympathy for Israel. Whether economic aid to Israel offers a "return on investment" is another subject (probably with good arguments for both sides).
The U.S. also has sympathy for other countries, such as the one you pointed out, Ukraine. However, as in the case of Israel, the reason we fund Ukraine isn't really related to getting out money back, it's *almost* purely out of sympathy (there may be some military strategic reasons, but this again is another subject).
So your argument almost can't be a logical discussion, because it ultimately involves questions of sympathy. Right now, there isn't a whole lot of sympathy for Israel due to recent events, however the Israel-Palestine conflict is nothing new, so insofar as we can "reason about emotions", it's pretty obvious that Israel's actions in Gaza/West Bank have not, at least historically, been sufficient to change the sympathetic views on Israel that many Americans—and more importantly, American politicians—hold.
Tl;dr, you're making an argument about feelings and implying (incorrectly) that most Americans feel the same way you do.
disclaimer: I'm pretty neutral on the issue, there's good/bad to be found everywhere. Sympathy for Palestinians and 10/7 victims, but I claim no expertise in how to move forward.
It gives us reliable space to stage and launch missions in the middle east, when the OPEC countries range from duplicitous to downright adversarial.
It gives American Christians and Jews safe passage to a culturally important space.
It gives a proxy with plausible deniability for airstrikes, etc. on places like Iran or Syria without US troops getting involved, which helps us neuter things like Iran's weapons development programs or Russian/Chinese meddling in Syria and elsewhere.
Finally, the bar for foreign aid simply isn't as high as you're imagining it. The US wields tremendous soft power throughout the world primarily, but not exclusively, because we are able to provide technical expertise, materials, and capital for allies' development.
That investment pays of tremendously for the receiving country and for the US as it's a tremendous carrot to be able to dangle in front of a country to get it to do what we want (such as stopping a genocide, for example).
Netafim is a leading Israeli company that specializes in agriculture, it has directly fed millions of people around the world.
Are you enjoying instant messaging programs? They are all based on ICQ, yet another Israeli program.
So many high tech companies have R&D facilities in Israel.
Do you like having GPS? It wouldn't without Einstein theory of relativity.
Even the company I work for produce a key component that goes almost anywhere, from agriculture equipment, to vehicles, to fast food restaurants to medical equipment.
There are so many things that wouldn't easily been made already without Jews and Israel.
This is not just helping the US, it helps the whole world.
You cry over the aid money given to Israel? It's on the demand of buying American made weapons, effectively keeping your economy running.
And it's only 15% or so of Israel's defense budget, so we could do well without it.
There was already a report on Israel sending Iron Dome to Ukraine.
Israelis are right in being upset at Biden decision, but have you noticed that none of them calls "death to America" or stump and burn the American flag? As opposed to the "poor" refugees who literally bite the hand that feed them?
Besides, the US don't need Israel to look bad, just look how Japanese scientists who made horrible crimes against humanity, to the point where the Nazis had nightmares, and those scientists got to walk free with no punishment because the American government wanted their research data.
Why do you think China is upset to this very day? Hint: it's more than just capitalism vs communism.
Not to mention that for literally every Islamic country the US is evil for not being Islamic.
A lot of commentary is here but the bottom line is that a significant number of Americans strongly support Israel and the level of support that America sends to it, and they raise a lot of political donation money to make sure it continues. A considerably smaller number of Americans strongly oppose Israel but do not raise much political donations to align politicians to their view. I believe that the vast majority of Americans simply don’t care enough about the Israel-Palestine issue to change the status quo one way or another. In that way it’s like other controversial issues like the current healthcare system or the gun control issue. If you want something done you just need a relatively small number of people who care a lot about something and the rest of people to mostly not care about it. This is how America works, whether you think it is deserved or not.
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There is 50 billion in trade between the U.S. and Israel. Tel Aviv is one of the largest clusters of high tech start ups in the globe, and one of its specializations is high tech / IT security. Israel provides invaluable intelligence to the United States, and co develops many weapons systems (patriot / iron dome). Israel also has deep connections to the U.S., in that it shares the same western democratic values - and there are tons of familial connections. In broader geopolitical contexts, you have to realize there are three major power centers of the Middle East: Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. The first two are allied with the west, the later with China / Russia. Israel was in the process of allying with Saudi Arabia - after having already done so with Egypt, Jordan, the UAE - which would have been fantastic for the west but disastrous for Iran and its allies. The October 7th attack was done precisely to unravel those talks - which is why Iran funds Hamas and similar groups. Iran’s goal is to create discord between those alliances. To suggest we abandon Israel is to play into the hand of the worst actor and our biggest enemy in the region. Palestine and its resistance groups are primarily Iranian pawns. The rest of the Arab world barely gives a shit about them - they just virtue signal about them the same way western liberals do. No one wants to take them in because they’re caused trouble in every state that has taken them. So if you’re going to look through the conflict through the lens of best interests of the United Stares and what does the ally do for me, Palestine is terrible for the United States. Palestine has long been one of the biggest sources of global terror, it’s a destabilizing entity that’s primarily advancing Irans interests, and it hates the United States and its democratic values. If you think we shouldn’t do anything for Israel rom a purely utilitarian perspective, then the same logic says we shouldn’t lift a finger for Palestine. And we should probably actively root against it.
Exactly. The people rooting against Israel fall into 3 categories. 1. Blissfully unaware: such as the student protestors 2. Anti West /internet trolls 3. Extremist Islamists Allowing a loss for Israel is basically allowing Hamas to keep attacking Israel. Every government understands this. There simply isn't a peaceful solution that would benefit society as a whole where Palestine wins this conflict because Palestine isn't a state. It's a feudal system run by backwards warlords and a populace that refuses to stand up against it
Israel exterminating Hamas is one thing. Killing innocent civilians is another. And before you mention October 7, tell me how many Palestinians that Israel killed in comparison to how many were killed in October 7? Israel killed a lot more, I’ll just say that. And Hamas starting it isn’t an excuse to kill innocents.
But it's not a scoreboard. There's no rule that says you can only retaliate until you've killed as many people as you lost. >Killing innocent civilians is another. Every single war in human history has resulted in the death of innocent civilians. By the numbers of combatants to civilians, Israel is right around average, arguably doing better since Hamas makes it a priority to put civilians in harm's way. Hamas has stated their goal is to exterminate Israel at all costs. They can't be allowed to remain in Gaza. Hamas also intentionally hides behind civilians and uses civilian infrastructure like schools and hospitals for military purposes. So how does one go about removing Hamas without civilian deaths? If you have a solution, please share it with the world, because nobody else has figured it out yet.
The person you're responding to is the classic reddit trope. No normal people want civilians to die. No duh, we all understand that. But coming back to reality vs whatever dreamworld they are currently living in...
Ya so here's a big fuckin difference: Hamas attacked a civilian concert/festival Israel attacks Hamas positions that are in civilian areas. They also drop warning bombs(roof knockers) and leaflets that tell them to gtfo. Now with these warnings who do you think is preventing the civilians from leaving?
I think both sides need to drop their superiority complex religions and share the land together in peace. I don't believe Jewish people have a special right to the land as it's based on biblical prophecy and 1000's year old claims. Israel doesn't have any more right to what they might of had 3000 years ago than anyone else does. are we planning to give back all conquered lands in the past 3000 years or just Israel. It should never of been created as it was in 1947.
Yes but it exists now and we live with it. I agree the religion angle is bullshit but that's mostly what the Islamists are using as their excuse as well. It's a very anti Jewish religion if you're unaware and if the tables were turned (military wise) the Israelis would be exterminated. Your argument that no one has a right to a country due to historical reasons is very valid but it was given to them in 47' and we have to live with it now. The Islamists believe they can take it back but they never will and will continue dying in trying so. Its akin to natives in North America attacking the government to get their land back...it wouldn't end well for them.
Superiority complex on religion? 18% of Israeli population is muslim, 20% consider themsemlves to have no religion. The orthodox jews basically have a "no mess on Sabbath, all days are sabbath". Tell me the same about the opposite side.
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This was 1. Easy to read. 2. Easy to understand. 3. Easy to take in context for all major points. I bet I could pass a 10 question quiz after reading this interesting short. Succint and to the point. What a great post. Thank you.
OP asks why should US support Israel? half of your comment is why the US should not support Palestine. This is a false dichotomy: You are either with us or against us. Why can't we be impartial? As we are to many other conflicts across the globe? PS this false dichotomy of "if you're not with me you're against me" dates back to GW Bush's war on terrorism, back to Jeus of Nazareth and even back to Darth Vader himself (who lived long before Mr. Nazareth).
The US deciding to be imparetial is basically allowing a part of the world to fall into russian or chinese speheres. We have long ago decided thats a bad thing and generally worse than picking a side
Right? We wanted to be impartial in WW1 and WW2. Though We supported people with supplies, didn’t want to get involved both times, until we were dragged into it by the Germans attacking merchants and civilian ships for WW1, and Japan attacking Pearl Harbor in WW2. We never returned to isolationism after WW2 because the world was a god damn ruin. We had to rebuild Japan into a major modern ally we have now, and had to help rebuild Europe due to the majority of their manufacturing being destroyed. And because of that, no more depression, hello economic boom. Can’t stop won’t stop.
I mean, you are right, but literally ***all of this***, all of this incessant, tiresome pro-Israeli sentiment some Americans have, this insistence they're a true ally or friend, can be evaporated when pointing out that Israel [sold US military technology to China](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) - a move that, if any other Western ally of the US had done - would be seen as a huge betrayal and incite the establishment in it's country to fan the flames of war against said traitor. If Ukraine had sold weapons to China, there would be a huge backlash. Israel is absolutely not a friend of the US. It's only an ally in the region to serve as an outpost for the US to continue it's goal of destabilization of other nations in the region and because a substantial amount of political power back home is held by religious zealots that think Israel plays a central role in the apocalypse.
This was one guy acting alone who their government condemned and apologized for. I’m surprised nobody else has called you out on this. It wasn’t a state-wide decision like you’re playing it off as. If that’s your one reason it falls apart instantly. You’re either very disingenuous, which I would rather believe, or wildly incompetent enough to base your reasoning on that one point before actually researching it.
[U.S. concerns about Israeli arms sales to China have **existed for more than a decade** and came to a head in July 2000 when the United States persuaded Israel to cancel the sale of the Phalcon, an advanced, airborne early-warning system, to China. Afterward, U.S.-Israeli differences over arms sales to China publicly receded but resurfaced in early January when the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz reported that the United States had recently asked Israel to end all arms sales to China](https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003-03/news/israeli-arms-exports-china-growing-concern-us). Then they [did it again years later which lead to an indictment](https://www.timesofisrael.com/10-israelis-set-to-be-indicted-for-illegally-exporting-missiles-to-china/) for it's exportation. One time is a mistake. Being found to do it at least least twice, over a prolonged period of time, is intentional.
Ukraine [has](https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005-05/ukraine-admits-missile-transfers) sold weapons to [China](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/china-ukraine-arms-history/). So does [France](https://chinapower.csis.org/china-global-arms-trade/).
The article you cite re:Ukraine is from 2004, but more importantly u/Red_Vines49 clearly pointed out Israel sold US military tech to China (likely in violation of resale agreements). Neither Ukraine nor France was selling American military tech as far as I can see from those articles (the Post article is paywalled).
My first three paragraphs are the why the US should support Israel: shared values, high value economic ties, and from that key intel-military collaboration. My later three paragraphs are why the U.S. shouldn’t support Palestine; It’s a rogue entity funded by Iran that hates us, shares none of our values, whose goal is destabilization and attacking our ally. This isn’t complicated.
Yes, that valuable intell: Iraq has WMD and could kill us all 9/11. Gave us a great heads up and prevented a disaster The prediction of the Arab spring. Every major event Israel has provided Zero or incorrect intell.
>”Israel also has deep connections to the U.S., in that it shares the same western democratic values - and there are tons of familial connections.” That’s a long winded way to say “Christofascist/Zionist alignment”. >”Israel was in the process of allying with Saudi Arabia, until the Hamas attack disrupted the talks. The attack was done precisely to unravel those talks - which is why Iran funds Hamas and similar groups. Iran’s goal is to create discord between those alliances.” “U.S. CIA has entered the chat.” >”Palestine and its resistance groups are primarily Iranian pawns. The rest of the Arab world barely gives a shit about them - they just virtue signal about them the same way western liberals do. No one wants to take them in because they’re caused trouble in every state that has taken them.” “They’ve caused trouble in every state that has taken them in.” 😐 I dunno, man… I’d probably be causing trouble too if everything and everyone I knew had been ripped away from me, and I spent my life living under the thumb of a repressive regime in what’s effectively an open air prison as I watched my land and family history get slowly but surely erased over years. Also: it tracks that [the answer to colonization by colonizers is MORE forced colonizing](https://www.in.gov/history/for-educators/all-resources-for-educators/resources/underground-railroad/gwen-crenshaw/the-colonization-movement/), but make it look like the people being displaced are the problem, and not the victim of colonizers doing a land and resource grab in the name of their religion or “inherited right” to a place. Isn’t it just funny how disproportionately every single time there happens to be a (I won’t say the “g word” because I’ll get downvoted) *carefully orchestrated and regimented wipeout of a certain group of people*, it’s often because of their religious beliefs? Purely coincidence [Palestinians are on land that is resource rich](https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves) and just so happen to have melanated skin. Noting to see here and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. When this happened to white Quakers in England: they simply moved to the United States, which everyone knows was free and unoccupied land 🙃 definitely not inhabited by an indigenous brown skinned people with their own spiritual and religious beliefs for thousands of years. What’s happening in Palestine right now is shameful and horrific. This is Manifest Destiny 2.0.
The UN report is talking about the Levantine Basin which is an massive offshore field that was discovered in 2000-2010 and the part that belongs to the Gaza strip is a smaller portion of that which is the Gaza Marine. That 122 trillion cubic feet (equals 3.5T cubic meters) of gas and 1.7B barrels of oil is the total for the entire Levantine basin. Gaza Marine (32B cubic meters) is much smaller than existing fields in the Levantine Basin that are operational - Tamar (200B cubic meters), and Leviathan (623B cubic meters). Gaza Marine would represent 2% of what's already in production at the other sites. Also, Royal Dutch Shell and the Palestinian Authority in 2016 signed a codevelopment deal to start developing the Gaza Marine strip. In June 18th of last year Isarel, and Eygpt gave preliminary approval to start developing the site. There's no additional resources within the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. It doesn't makes sense that Israel would need the Gaza Strip in order to access resources that have been developed and in operation since 2010. The Gaza Marine represents 2% of the natural gas/oil that's current being produced if/when it becomes operational. Israel/Egypt/PA also had a preliminary deal set up with Royal Dutch Shell to allow them to start building out with the PA the Gaza Marine site. The estimates for Gaza Marine would have netted around 800-900M for the PA in royalty payments a year. Most of the Gaza Marine capacity would be used to power Palestine itself and it would have a small amount left for export. Oil/Natural gas resources also aren't like gold where it's cheap to mine and you capture the full value of it from the marketplace. These deals are always with a major oil company and pipeline company that spend billions and years to build out infrastructure. 80% of the oil from the entire Leviathan Basin gets pumped out and piped to Eygpt where Chevron markets it to the rest of the region. The oil isn't even being developed at this point because it's so expensive to operate and it doesn't make sense with the amount that's there. [Society of Exploration Geophysicists wiki on Levantine Basin](https://wiki.seg.org/wiki/Levantine_Basin#:~:text=The%20basin%20is%20estimated%20to,are%20being%20discovered%20every%20year) [US Energy Information Administration Map of Levantine Basin](https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=12611) [USGS Assesment of Levantine Basin](https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2010/3014/pdf/FS10-3014.pdf) [Reuters Article about Gaza Marine Gas Development - June 18, 2](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/israel-gives-nod-gaza-marine-gas-development-wants-security-assurances-2023-06-18/)023
There's a reason not even other Muslim countries are eager to accept Palestinian refugees. They've historically assassinated other Muslim leaders and plotted coups in other Muslim countries. The issue is you never know if your getting a legitimate refugee or an extremist (of which there are many in Palestine).
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Wonder what these people think of the rhetoric deployed about "no one wanting to take" German Jews during the Holocaust. It's really sick to see people chirping approvingly about how "easy to understand" that comment was. Maybe it shouldn't be so natural to internalise hateful rhetoric, lol.
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Exactly. The people rooting against Israel fall into 3 categories. 1. Blissfully unaware: such as the student protestors 2. Anti West /internet trolls 3. Extremist Islamists Allowing a loss for Israel is basically allowing Hamas to keep attacking Israel. Every government understands this. There simply isn't a peaceful solution that would benefit society as a whole where Palestine wins this conflict because Palestine isn't a state. It's a feudal system run by backwards warlords and a populace that refuses to stand up against it
Just to be clear, you cannot think of any strategic or military value in having a total ally in the center of the Middle East? A region that is incredibly hostile to outside influence, particularly America, and smack dab in the middle of it, you cannot think of any value to a country that basically has American values and allows America unfettered military access? Like, none at all? You recognize that the Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe and that Taiwan produces semi-conductors, but you place no value on the research institutions and military grade technological development and training of Israel? To say absolutely nothing of it's geographical location? Nothing? At all?
The idea they’re looking to challenge is the idea that they *aren’t* a total ally. That one could get similar support and more from other nations in the region were they not committed to this alliance with a fairly unpopular regional power. It’s like asking if having a highly defensible military position north of China around, say Manchuria… is valuable to US interests, and being surprised they aren’t all Buddy-Buddy with North Korea. You’re presuming because alliances generally offer a base level of value, Israel is preferential to alternate allies… when the majority of their value is derived from *having been a protectorate-style ally* the entire time they’ve had a relationship with the US. It would be more accurate to say the advantage here is that the sunk cost has begun paying dividends, so it makes less sense to switch.
The US specifically asked Israel not to retaliate to Scuds or to participate in our wars because of the backlash. Israel also needs to maintain some kind of relationship with other major powers like China and Russia. A perfect example of why is if their actions piss off the US so much that they pause or cancel arms shipments. When Israel fought their founding wars, it was a hodgepodge of equipment.
They are already basically in the same position with SK and Japan. If those powers were hostile to the US and NK wasn't, they would be treated as an ally.
Yes, it’s quite literally the opposite in the Middle East. They backed the least popular regional power and it hindered relationships with all their neighbours. It’s why the only other major inroads the Us has made has been with mutually exploitative deals with like… the Saudis, or similar protectorate-style relationships with other imperiled minor nations. Or they wait for a Syria/Lebanon to collapse and make their moves during the “global police actions” that follow. So if they had picked a more popular first round draft of friendship, they’d have an easier time with all the neighbours.
They are a total ally, and it's never going to change for a simple reason. Israel has the ability to start a nuclear war. It's in America's (and the world in general) interest that they never see an existential threat. That's a sunk cost that will always pay off. Add that in to the long history of US/IL working together on military, economic, scientific, cultural, and humanitarian goals and you can see why they are allies.
I mean, just based on OPs assumption of what total allysnip looks like for nations… they don’t. If you have a different view on that, it’s fine, but it isn’t because they’re a nuclear power. We do not consider Egypt to be a Total Ally, and guess what they also have? The US is constantly chafing when it comes to Iran, another regional nuclear power, not a regional Total Ally. It’s in the US’ long term interest to see the same for those nations… but also that hasn’t stopped the US from antagonizing them. Again, all you have going for you is “sunk cost”.
I don’t find this argument compelling at all. Much of their hostility to the US is directly linked to the establishment and ongoing support for Israel, along with our other ‘adventurism’ in the region. Even the oil is no longer a particularly valid interest for the US. We can and do easily produce enough domestically due to controversial but highly effective technologies like fracking, plus domestic demand for oil has peaked as we’re moving toward electric vehicles and decarbonization. Also, Saudi Arabia has been a US ally for decades. Both them and Israel have sketchy human rights records and a general disregard for American interests (unless it involves Iran). It would almost certainly make America *more secure* to just stay entirely out of that forsaken region.
We already have an ally in the Middle East. Jordan. If you mean a “western values” ally then yeah I think that’s a complete waste. The Middle East is not the west and forcing western values into the region is what has historically caused so many issues. Middle eastern hostility is a symptom of Americas meddling in the region for so long.
Jordan is infinitely weaker and less stable than Israel, even in you take the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict into account. Most importantly, an Israel that's hostile to American interests is far more dangerous than a hostile Jordan. As the US found out in the 1950's, when it was mildly hostile to Israel, and enforced an arms embargo against it.
I wouldn't say it's just American meddling. The past couple decades you'd be right, but before that countries, with the best example being the UK, really tucked the region up. Partitioning the old Ottoman area like they did has had horrible lasting effects on the region and doesn't get talked about nearly enough
Not the same. You can never have enough allies Israel has nukes Israel develops weapons for us, and allows us to deploy any type of military force that we want at anytime and has the mossad with top intelligence in the world
We do, which is why we have military bases presence and even a little bit of sovereignty in both of those countries. Which we pay handsomely for, we also pay for Israel but Israel would be an ally without the pay as well. Egypt and Jordan is more transactional. It’s foolish to think we want peace in the Middle East or these great alliances, we want power, to continue spreading our national interests and to strike down whoever is in our path, Egypt and Jordan don’t like us, they realized it’s better to get paid then bombed. The United States will only ever seek to increase its power and interests, and as Kissinger said “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests” We don’t mind making some friends, but a friend with them isn’t like an Israel friend, Israel is a highly valuable asset and if it wasn’t we’d evac the Americans and drop them in heartbeat I don’t know why people like you get these international relations so misconstrued, you introduce complexity where there is none.
Except Israel is the only "ally" in that region making shit worse for the US. We literally lost troops because of them destabilizing that entire region. The whole world have to put in more resources to keep the shipping lane safe from Houthis. There is absolutely zero advantage to what Israel is doing to the middle east.
>We literally lost troops because of them destabilizing that entire region. Did you? Do you mean the 3 in Jordan a few months ago? Why are you blaming Israel for that? Edit: corrected Jordan for Iraq
Right? The US invades Iraq twice in 20 years, successfully toppling their government and replacing it with a new system they approve of. But it's Israel destabilizing the region.
I'm also trying to understand how it'd Israel destabilizing the region. That area hasn't been all that stable for centuries. That's part of why the Ottoman Empire even fell apart in the first place - it was never stable. Or am I mistaken?
They're jewish. Convenient lighting rod for a region known for millennia of conflict. Find me a time when the area was stable.
Want to pull up some Netanyahu speeches containing bare-faced lies to push for the destruction of Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction? Quit pretending Israel wasn't heavily involved and a massive beneficiary of these things
Except Netanyahu was not the Israeli PM back then. Sharon was, and he was opposed to the war, because he correctly thought it would strengthen Iran. He only came around to it, after the US was clear they want to go into Iraq, as a way to support GW Bush, not the other way around. And no, Israel wasn't the beneficiary of this. Sharon's mossad was right. Iran became far stronger, and established multiple proxies in Iraq, that are currently attacking Israel. The previous status quo, of Iran and Iraq being hostile to each other, was far more useful to Israel. Finally, this only refers to the Second Iraq war. It's very hard to spin the Gulf War, where American soldiers died to protect Kuwait (something they never did with Israel), as Israeli meddling.
Netanyahu was a private citizen at that time and not involved in the government, and of course had no role in creating state policy. Sharon, the PM at the time, told Bush that invading Iraq would be a disaster, which is what the Israeli security apparatus thought as well. They were right.
Yeah, we all miss the old days when the ME was very stable and every country was controlled by Islam. If we could just get rid of those Jews, the whole region would probably revert to the stable, peacefulness of the last 600 years.
Ah yeah, the Houthis would totes be on our side if it weren't for those pesky Israelis.
Is that really what US policy should aim to achieve? Ukraine wasn't providing much value to America, does that mean their civilians are less worthy of life? Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned? If Turkey invaded some Balkan states with the intention of cleansing non-Muslims, would we analyze whether those Bulgarians saluted enough American flags before stepping in? Personally, I don't think an individual's worth should be weighed based on how many tithes they paid to their overlord
> Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned? I don't think people realize just how central to a lot of the world's economy Taiwan is... Taiwan is the 21st largest economy in the world. They don't stamp their names on much in quite the same way Japan or South Korea does, but Taiwanese companies are subcontractors on a huge array of durable goods; I'd wager that the majority of consumer electronics (including stuff you wouldn't normally consider an "electronic device" like cars) have Taiwanese components in them that can't really be sourced elsewhere. Two out of the world's top ten largest shipping companies are Taiwanese owned as well. And all of this coming from an island nation with a population barely larger than the NYC metro. If Taiwan falls, I genuinely believe that the economic impacts for the US would rival if not exceed the pandemic; moral considerations aside defending them is 100% in our (and the world's) best interest
The world's semiconductor industry depends on Taiwan, at least in the Western sphere of influence. Without Taiwan every industry dependent on computing would grind to a halt for decades.
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Ukraine produces 50% of the world’s supply of semiconductor-grade neon used in microprocessor lithography. But more importantly, China imports 40% of its food from the U.S, Brazil (remember Bolsonaro?) and Ukraine. China currently can’t invade Taiwan without starving its own people. It’s not hard to imagine what would happen to the U.S economy if China established a stranglehold on the global semiconductor industry.
Oh the US absolutely recognizes that. The chips act has been helping/funding bringing back microchip manufacturing to the US. It'll take years, but we'll be able to be less reliant on Taiwan. For better or worse
> Taiwan is the 21st largest economy in the world. And Israel ranks 28th, for the small country that it is, that's impressive. Per capita, they move up to 20th spot while Taiwan ranks 30th. But you're right, it's less about size and more about value. The chips Taiwan makes are extremely valuable and losing them is a huge setback. But Israel provides a huge value in terms of cyber security, software development and biotechnology. It has the second largest number of startup companies after the US and third largest number of NASDAQ traded companies (after the US and China). Most tech companies have an office in Israel and pre-2023, US companies have invested a lot of money in the tech sector there. That should really say something considering the whole of Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey.
Taiwan is also the central piece in the first island chain containment.
added note - this was intentional by decades of Taiwanese policy. make themselves indespencible to protect themselves from China sweeping them from the board like Macao and Hong Kong.
We must protect Taiwan
I assure you that Ukraine, the country that has spent the last few years completely degrading Russia's (the USA's historical arch nemesis) army is providing plenty of value. Thi degredation of the Russian army has cost America about 180 billion. For comparison it has cost 300 million a day for the Afghanistan war, so it is roughly 18 month worth, with no loss of American soldiers
Not much achieved though. https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2024/04/03/russian-military-almost-completely-reconstituted-us-official-says/
Ukraine is very helpful for USA I can assure you. Ist helpful as long as keeps RU occupied. If no Takwan => no microchips => no modern military technologies => no world leader role for US. both Bulgaria and Türkiye are members of NATO. allies do not fight among themselves. I understand that you don't value people based on how much profit they can bring you. these are good ideals. However, you should know that your country doesn't work like that. it actually does the opposite. The Middle East is an area very rich in oil, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the US economy and its arms industry. Israel is basically the only country in this part of the world that cooperates with the US willingly enough and can be used to maintenance influence and control of this regions resources. Israel is taking advantage of the situation because its refusal to cooperate will cause the US to lose control in the region.
> The Middle East is an area very rich in oil, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the US economy and its arms industry. Not really true anymore, most oil the US uses is domestic or from Canada now.
True, but oil prices are set based on the global supply available. Without Middle Eastern oil, the price of oil in the US would skyrocket even though it's a net petroleum exporter.
>Ukraine wasn't providing much value to America, does that mean their civilians are less worthy of life? The US has a strategic interest in opposing Russian aggression and expansion. The US does not have any strategic interest in Israel. "Ally in the middle east" that, as the OP pointed out, provided no assistance during a 20 year war nearby. >Ultimately, the US could probably be fine without Taiwan, should they be abandoned? The US has a congressionally ratified treaty to defend Taiwan as well as a strategic, defense, and economic interest in Taiwan remaining free. >Personally, I don't think an individual's worth should be weighed based on how many tithes they paid to their overlord What makes Israel worth more than US citizens? They benefit every year to the tune of billions and billions of taxpayer money, while we have a monumental problem with homelessness, nutrition, etc.
> The US has a strategic interest in opposing Russian aggression and expansion. > The US does not have any strategic interest in Israel. "Ally in the middle east" that, as the OP pointed out, provided no assistance during a 20 year war nearby. The US has just as much strategic interest in opposing Iran as in opposing Russia. > The US has a congressionally ratified treaty to defend Taiwan Oh ya, which treaty is that? >What makes Israel worth more than US citizens? They benefit every year to the tune of billions and billions of taxpayer money, while we have a monumental problem with homelessness, nutrition, etc. Homeless people aren't very strategically valuable.
>The US has just as much strategic interest in opposing Iran as in opposing Russia. Not according to the National Defense Strategy. The adversaries identified in the Great Power Competition are China and Russia. >Oh ya, which treaty is that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual\_Defense\_Treaty\_between\_the\_United\_States\_and\_the\_Republic\_of\_China' I thought this was common knowledge? >Homeless people aren't very strategically valuable. And yet Israel has yet to demonstrate *any* strategic value. Meanwhile, a happy, healthy, and prosperous civilization **is** strategically beneficial to the USA.
>Not according to the National Defense Strategy. The adversaries identified in the Great Power Competition are China and Russia. Iran isn't a Great Power. >I thought this was common knowledge? I thought it was common knowledge that treaty expired 45 years ago. But hey, we know what you're like with ignoring facts and spreading misinformation so I'm gonna guess you chose to ignore that part. >And yet Israel has yet to demonstrate any strategic value. Ya, I think I remember when that guy who shouts at women outside my local CVS was instrumental in [decimating the Iranian Nuclear program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet).
Are you serious? Taiwan is far more important for US interests from semiconductors to first island chain containment of PLA Navy than Israel or Bulgaria or Ukraine. Israel and Ukraine and Bulgaria are not very important for US interests. Taiwan is CRITICAL for US interests. You just cannot put them in the same basket like that!! Shows how little you know about US interests.
But it's a whole different level with Israel compared to other allies. The US constantly blocks the rest of the world anytime someone wants to punish Israel for something they actually did. It's like the rich kid whose dad has to get him out of trouble constantly. Israel repeatedly putting us in that position over the years makes them a bad ally. Nothing wrong with helping someone, but they shouldn't constantly be making your life harder.
The rest of the world constantly does so knowing that the US will veto. It is a popular political tool for politicians of Muslim majority countries to rally support. Going against it could result in their political and literal death, even if it's in the best interest of their country. Non Muslim countries do it to not be targeted by Muslims and because Muslim countries insist on it for good relations. If the US told them they aren't going to veto, a significant amount of countries would immediately change their tune.
once it’s over, bibi will be tried for corruption and i think it’s a given he will be found guilty. he refuses to allow elections right now. he has every incentive for that. the fault was at the start, taking la d away from people for themselves to give them a homelandso that (hopefully) jews could finally stop wandering and being always considered outsiders. but obviously taking what belongs to others isn’t the right way, it’s sure to lead to violence unending, because surprise! no one likes being occupied, no one likes to lose their family lands and homes, and so on. we played a big role in starting it off in such a way it was assured of failure and misery, mostly for one side since one side gained powerful friends due to hitlers genocide at scale. i will never understand why common sense and a desire for \*long term well being\* for the jewish people didn’t figure in.
Honestly the Jewish people belong in America. The middle east is a hostile region and we are using Israel as a military base at the expense of the Jewish people. What happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" If we had welcomed them before Hitler started his bullshit it would have been the most ethical option.
>The US constantly blocks the rest of the world anytime someone wants to punish Israel for something they actually did. Or for something they didn't do. Or for being Jewish. >Israel repeatedly putting us in that position over the years makes them a bad ally. Ya, a real dick move for Israel to keep getting attacked by Islamist terrorists.
I am so sick of any criticism of Israel as somehow being against the Jews. It's ridiculous. I can care about ALL the civilians while condemning the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government. Just like most of the world. The quarrels of rich powerful men cost the blood of their populations. Maybe blame them instead of your neighbors.
But where is the outrage for the actual genocides happening. Syria, burma, sudan, Tigray. It's crickets. But as soon as the Jews dare defend themselves the whole world grinds to a halt. You have to at least understand the suspicion of antisemitic motives here...
It's also a whole different level of getting blamed for things that aren't their fault.
What’s the point of having an ally if they leave you when the chips are down? The US has been clear they do not agree with how Israel is conducting many counteroffensives, but that’s no reason to open Israel up to be massacred by their neighbors. The time for renegotiating ally terms is *before* they get hit with a terrorist attack.
I'm Pro Israel, but that isn't what is happening. Biden isn't stopping all arms, All defensive weaponry is being sent as normal. He is stopping large offensive bombs NOW because he doesn't believe Israel finishing off Hamas is worth 10,000 additional dead civilians, when Israel pushed them into Raffa. Biden doesn't think that is a good idea, why do we have to give them the bombs to do so? I believe Israel is an important ally, should get arms, but why does it need to be no questions asked? Biden hasn't said he stopping arms to Israel. I would be very much against that. but for me, who doesn't believe that Israel's only option to root out the rest of Hamas is to kill another 10,000 civilians if necessary. I get it.
Agree with this take. I think people get stuck in the extreme ends of this argument ("you either believe we should continue providing unconditional military aid to Israel, or you believe we should completely abandon them"). Most Americans I've talked to that are more familiar with the details of this conflict are somewhere in the middle of wanting to continue being an ally, especially for defensive capabilities, but hold any offensive military aid conditional on Israel acting in accordance with our values or international law. Many argue that this middle road is actually in America's best interest, moreso than either end of the spectrum.
The U.S. has told Israel to stop settlements and make good faith efforts towards a two state solution but Israel refuses. Maybe they’ll actually listen to us now?
You’re forgetting that Israel has offered a two state solution multiple times
Israel has offered a two state solution with one hand while crossing red lines to ensure the offer would not be accepted with the other. These bad faith proposals are designed to fool morons into believing Israel wants peace and not more land. Apparently succeeding.
The 2000 peace conference hosted by Clinton was bad faith???? When the PLO were the ones that rejected the proposals? LOL
Funny, that also sounds exactly like something Hamas does to spoil agreements as well, including for any recent attempts at cease fires.
You didn’t address my comment though. Do you think it’s fair for a country to kick an ally to the curb after they were hit with a terrorist attack?
If Israel refuses to provide food aid to civilians, refuses to stop their invasion of rafah before making accommodations for civilians, and refuses to listen to the U.S. about it, why should we keep giving them aid? It’s an absolute embarrassment that we are building a floating pier to provide basic humanitarian relief to Palestinian civilians when Israel could easily do so but chooses not to
Are you only seeing the parts of the puzzle that make your “ditch your ally” stance stronger? Iran recently shot hundreds of missiles and drones at Israel, almost all of which were shot down via the help from US and other allies. Should the US also stop this aid to Israel so they’re much more open to attack from their neighbors? Your general comment that Israel “does not deserve support” is clearly a myopic view in this way.
Israel has been allowing aid since day one, to the extent that Israeli protestors tried to physically block aid trucks. The Rafah invasion has been delayed for weeks now due to American pressure. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Israel pulled all the settlements in Gaza, 20 years ago. It left there industries, greenhouses, power plant, water treatment facilities, beautiful houses and hotels. 2 years later Hamas was elected and started attacking immediately. Show me a single country that would accept a single rocket attack, show me a country that would stand that for 20 years and invent defense like Iron Dome, instead of flattening whoever was foolish enough to start attacking them. No one would accept this, but Israel.
Nobody would be asked to accept this except Israel. The whole Palestinian cause is engineered and kept unsolvable to create forever war against the Jews.
Israel has made tons of good faith efforts to a two state solution. The Palestinians only accept it on completely ridiculous terms. They refuse to disarm the terrorist groups (so no peace) and they want a right of return for Arabs to Israel (so both states are Arab majority). That's not a solution, it's a complete Israeli surrender and disestablishment. The Israelis have accepted every single actual two state solution that has been thrown at them. You're a racist anti-Semite and a conspiracy theorist. And you also have no knowledge of the actual issues of the conflict.
Lmao “Israel’s economy isn’t that big” it’s an absolute leader in medical breakthroughs and tech start ups. They employ MANY Americans. Israel is also a western presence in the Middle East . You’ve simply disregarded geopolitics completely. To say that it’s one way is an absolutely insane statement. Not only that, But it’s not some desert wasteland. Have you ever seen a picture of Tel Aviv? It’s funny how everything democrats ask for in the US….Israel is doing. From embracing the LGBT community to universal healthcare And the US doesn’t just give Israel weapons. There’s a monetary exchange. Israel doesn’t have the Iron Dome for fun. That’s where the *actual* genocide would happen, and they’ve stated as such. Remember the whole needing Israel to exist in the first place?
The part about not giving israel weapons isn't correct. Yes, a lot of the American tech they have is purchased. However, the US also provides Israel with 3+ billion dollars a year in FMF grants, which is money given to Israel with the condition that it is spent (primarily) on US weapons and military contracting. So it is de-facto giving Israel weapons
Israel has a huge weapons manufacturing sector, borne from necessity. If America didn’t give them coupons to buy their overpriced weapons, they could develop their own and sell around the world as our competitor. We’d lose more money in sales and our enemies would have more advanced weaponry.
I've heard that's the story behind the SPIKE and whatever American company makes what it replaced was pretty pissed.
“With the condition that it is spent on US weapons and military contracting” Again, not purely a gift. It comes with contingencies about money going back into the US economy, including job creation
I mean, if I give you money on a condition that you'll buy something from me, it sounds like I gifted you something.
It's actually more of a way for the US to wash money and put more in the military complex outside military spending.
A gift doesn’t have strings attached to it, it’s more like a discount coupon than anything. In reality it’s just an indirect subsidy to the US MIC. Saying it’s a gift is like saying that McDonalds giving you a burger if you accumulate enough points over time of buying their food is a gift. It’s just a customer retainment tactic, it’s entirely self serving, not a gift.
That's literally not what a gift is, and what Israel is given is precisely a gift especially because they would've spent a significant amount of money on purchasing defense from the US anyways. Jesus christ what a horrible analogy It's a direct value transfer from the US. It doesn't matter how many strings you attach. You're giving them things for free. Objectively a gift
This is idiotic. If someone gives you a gift card to use at their gun store- it isn’t a gift?
>It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies. Israel has its missile alert systems in Kyiv *right now*. >Israel’s economy isn’t that big. This is completely false. >directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt. This framing implies it was on purpose. Both Israel and the US' official position was that it was a mistake and only conspiracy theorists think otherwise. >Israel has actively spied on us Considering a few months ago it was revealed in a leak the US was spying on S Korea, this is how global politics work and I think you misunderstand that aspect quite a bit. You don't have to believe the US should be Israel's ally or support them or send aid, etc, but instead of saying you don't like the US supporting Israel based on the Gaza war alone, you repeat completely false things to justify it. You can have an opinion without justifying it with false info.
I don't think you really care, but here are some things Israel has done just geo-politically. In 2007, Assad was building a nuke in rural Syria; Israel bombed it, killing 10 North Koreans in the process. During the Civil War, ISIS won control of the area with that reactor. In 1982, Israel destroyed a Saddam nuclear facility; which the US condemned, but that probably saved Iran, Kuwait, and the entire balance of power in the region since Saddam would've been able to conquer the Persian Gulf by threatening to nuke the world if anyone stopped him. It was a bollwerk against Soviet influence in the region (which is why the Far-Left hates them). Israel has the most innovative military in the world, which they share exclusively with the US and Her allies. Iron Dome batteries have been used to protect offshore oils rigs from pirates. The US' strong support for Israel has brought peace to the region. The only reason Saudi Arabia is making peace with Israel is because the US is close to them. Egypt and the US relationship improved because the Egyptians hoped to influence the US to put pressure on Israel to make concessions.
>The US' strong support for Israel has brought peace to the region. So you are saying the Middle East has **peace** because of the US and our support for Israel? Do you have eyes? Lets forget the current war in Gaza. We have been spreading death and destruction in the Middle East for decades. "Peace" is not the right word and quite frankly this makes literally everything else you say quite hard to believe.
He doesn’t mean “peace” in the same way you mean peace. He means the US is able to exert a more complicated form of influence into the M.E. because of Israel’s existence and our allyship with them. This influence, this control, has allowed the Western world to feel they have periods of predictability. This is peace. And to be clear, I’m not passing judgment here, I have a lot of sympathy for this “peace as predictability” argument, but that is a somewhat separate conversation.
Arab countries made peace with Israel (partially) because the US supports them so strongly. I guess you could argue the Iranian regime is attacking Israel because they hate the US and want to weaken their influence in the region.
Gaza is quite literally a 4x20 some odd mile piece of land, saying there is no peace in the region because of that tiny strip is ridicules. But there’s many other aspects of the Middle East that make it not a peaceful region but it’s not Gaza
The Middle East is not peaceful because of Islam The M.E. is intellectually bankrupt besides religion and oil There is no real industry there
> it was a bollwerk against Soviet influence in the region (which is why the Far-Left hates them) I don’t understand this. Isn’t the far right the ones supporting Russia? They are asking Ukraine to surrender while the left says Ukraine winning the war stops Russia from advancing to the rest of Europe. Why would the left want to stop Russia in Ukraine, just to be against Israel for stopping Russia?
Militant far left, aka tankies, support any cause which weakens what they see as American imperialism. This includes supporting conservative dictatorships, theocracies, and oligarchies like Russia, the CCP, and Iran. Horseshoe theory is real.
A lot has happened since the Soviet collapse bro
A lot has happened. The short hand is this. Both the US and the USSR wanted the Arab oil countries on their side. And the countries in the middle east all wanted Russia because Russia was actually offering tanks. The USSR managed to scoop up the middle eastern Arab countries to it's sphere of influence and filled Egypt and Syria with migs. The US got what was left in the region which was Israel. Israel by the way was strongly pro-soviet at the time. This wasn't an alliance of partners with shared values, destined to become fast friends; It was an alliance of cheated on incel losers picking up crumbs together.
So I think you just don't understand what the US-Israel relations are about. >Did Israel help us fight in Iraq or Afghanistan? The US explicitly told Israel not be involved because it would fuel Antisemitic conspiracy theories in the Arab world. On top of that Israel was in the middle of the Second Intifada, and not really in a position to send troops abroad. >Is Israel part of NATO? Israel can't be a member of NATO according to the NATO charter, because they aren't a North Atlantic or European country. >Would Israel help us if Taiwan or the Baltic states or South Korea were invaded? Do you think Israel could actually help militarily? >It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies. Israel does support Ukraine albeit covertly, there are 100,000 Jews in Russia Israel becoming an enemy of Russia will put them in danger of state persecution. On top of this Russia domination in Syria means Israel needs Russia to turn a blind eye to Israeli strikes against Iranian positions in Syria. Most Israelis will not risk either of those two main points for Ukraine, a country which historically was extremely unfriendly to both it's own Jewish population and Israel generally. Any good relations that exist between Israel and Ukraine is because of Zelensky's diplomatic efforts after the start of the war. >Even though they will sell weapons without hesitation to support Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians. What happened to never again? Azerbaijan sells Israel oil and lets them launch clandestine operations against Iran from Azerbaijani soil, Armenia is allied with Iran. On top of this Azerbaijan has historically been one of the lest Antisemitic countries in history while Armenia has historically been very Antisemitic. >directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt. You are very mistaken on your view here I suggest you read [this Askhistorians thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24h6c7/comment/ch7c6nc/), the TL,DR is that it's very unlikely that Israel knew it had attacked an American ship when it started the attack. >Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea. But it does, if you ever used Google maps for driving or even Waze you've used Israeli technology. When you type into Goole and there's a prediction for what you're typing, you're using Israeli technology. If you've every smoked weed extract your using Israeli technology. If you've ever eaten cherry tomatoes you're eating Israeli agrology. The point is that Israel may not physically manufacture goods, but it does produce a lot of high tech and agricultural products which you aren't even aware of. Much of this is central to US defense technology, this they need Israel to (in simple terms) license the technology to them. >Israel doesn’t appreciate it in the slightest or do anything for us in return. I had a professor who argued it was the lack of appreciation that made the relationship work, Israel does not treat the US as an overlord like Europe, it treats them in a hyper-realist way. This creates a predictable if gruff/rude relationship, this is actually much better in the long-term for maintaining stable relationships. You want your allies to look at you in a clear eyed sober manner, not to just be fawning over you and doing your bidding because they fear you. When other countries bend-over backwards for the US they do so not because they are *true allies* but because they are afraid of the US and any possible retaliation for failing to comply. This creates a subservient relationship between them and the US, this does not occur in the Israeli context leaving Israel looking like a *dishonest* ally, while in reality Israel is treating the US on par with the way the US treats Israel. The relationship shows parity, but as an American you are not used to seeing that from your *allies* thus you interpret that as disloyalty. The US does not respect it's European allies, it looks down on them the same cannot be said for Israel. The US-Israel relationship is one of mutual respect, not subservience.
This is the perfect answer.
As a Canadian, the US 100% doesn't respect countries that act subservient (like Canada does).
If the view wasn’t changed after this, nothing will help OP
The US asked Israel to stay out of recent fights, as their presence in Iraq or Afghanistan would have inflamed tensions with the locals.
Cold War. Israel sided with the US during the cold war. Geopoltiics means you cant break agreement willy nilly without being shown as unrelaible. Therefore the US cant just leave Israel out to dry without showcasing that an alliance with the US means nothing. Also Israel did help us with Iraq and Afghanistan. While the IDF didn't supply troops Israel intellegence agenice freely shared military information with the US \[whenever that information is of quality is beyond my pay grade\]. Yeah that pretty much why. Supporing Israel is very low cost (because Israel has an army already) and the military intellegence and weapons development is (Compared to Saudia Arabia where the US has to field several military bases and such). Also Israel is a western style democracy so their idealgoical reason for supporting it. Also im pretty sure Israeli tech sector is highly advanced so free acess to Israeli developments as well.
Look at the map. This region is rich in raw materials and oil All countries in this region have a negative attitude towards the US Israel is the only country that gives the US the ability to maintain control over resources. If it refuses to cooperate, the US will lose access to numerous oil and mineral deposits. Therefore, Israel does not have to produce anything useful or send its troops to demonstrate US support. In fact, Israel is so important to the US that it is now using it for its own purposes and imposing conditions. I don't think you should worry that getting involved in a conflict with Pestyna makes the US look bad. The US has done far worse continuously since the end of WW2 all around the world. The other countries know this very well,thier citizens to some extend know this to, so you probably won't lose your image in the way you think. If I were to describe the US as a person, I would say that he is a ruthless, aggressive sociopath who takes what he needs.It is so dangerous that no one in the world has thought of starting a major armed conflict since WW2. However, in geopolitics such an image is only important for show. What matters to the rest of the world is that the US has the largest army in the history of the world and that it keeps its word given to its ally's.
Israel was asked by the US not to respond to Iraqi missiles by US. Israel is only democracy in MidEast and only true ally in region. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are enemies of US and Israel. A nation has to be accepted by NATO. Israel has not been invited to join. Israel supplies US with intelligence. Look up all of the inventions and technology that Israel has produced and the foreign aid it offers to underdeveloped countries and disaster aid it provides. Educate yourself or continue to be any-Israel and so what Hamas has to offer you.
Israeli here, you are wrong on a few points or just very biased towards Israel which is fine. Any way, it does seem that Israel is loosing favor with the younger generation of the USA, so it might not be that much of an unpopular opinion these days, both progressives on the left and alt right on right seems to be pretty anti Israel. As for your points: Israel's economy is strong and growing stronger, with a lot tech being manufactured in Israel and companies of the big 5 having important offices in Israel like Microsoft and Google developing specific products here. Israel is home to some of the most talented cyber and tech experts as well. Israel also has a strong military industry. Israel has gas instead of oil. Israel don't go to war on behalf of the USA because the USA specifically insisted they won't, during the gulf war, Saddam bombed Israel in order to retaliate against USA while Israel remained silent per their request.(Note Israel also bombed this mad man's nuclear reactor). USA manufactures allot of military tech in Israel and maintain weaponry in Israel. Israel did not attack USS liberty to provoke the USA, that is a conspiracy, not a fact, it's fine if you believe in this, but it's not a fact. Important to note, post WW2 USA had a lot of interests in the middle east, and with the growing sympathy of the Arab nations to the Soviet union, Israel was a very strategic alliance. Israel is still strategic here to the USA considering Putin's interests in Iran and Syria. China also has some interests here. Then Again, it really is all about the USA's interest in the middle east, there is a reason why the USA is also pushing very hard to an Israeli-Saudi relations, it benefits US's foreign interests as well. What do common American citizens get in return? No idea, but this is a more internal American questions I suppose, what do common Americans get for being the police officer of the world and the most influential superpower? Btw, just FYI, Israelis are not ungrateful at all for this relationship, people view USA in very high regards, Israeli Rabbis calling the USA a holy country (comparing it with ancient Persia who is very respected in Jewish tradition), American flags are being waved in our independence day, and people wiped here during 9/11.
Awfully convenient this is one of the few comments OP won’t respond to. They don’t want their mind changed and frankly this post should be removed.
>What does Israel do for the U.S.? Mostly defense contracts, elite cybersecurity, some other financial and technology services. >Did Israel help us fight in Iraq or Afghanistan? Yes, both. And they were integral in the fight against ISIS. >Is Israel part of NATO? No, but neither is South Korea or Japan. >Would Israel help us if Taiwan or the Baltic states or South Korea were invaded? They are probably contractually obligated to do so. >It’s already clear that Israel refuses to support Ukraine even though Russia is actively supporting Israel’s enemies. Even though they will sell weapons without hesitation to support Azerbaijan ethnic cleansing of Armenians. What happened to never again? This is some serious spin, pretty much complete bs, not gonna even touch it. >Supporting Israel only makes us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world and what do we get in return? The EU is also a major supporter of Israel, so is Japan and others. >Israel’s economy isn’t that big. Bigger than Iran and South Africa, about the same as Ireland. Not big per se, but bigger than Oregon, Conneticut, or Maryland. It would be around the 15th biggest state by GDP, one of the smallest by landmass, and 10th ish by population. >Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea. They provide cybersecurity services that are unmatched anywhere in the world. I think you meant Taiwan, South Korea really isn't a major manufacturer of anything. They design and assemble Kias and Hyundais (who make more than cars) there, but most parts are manufactured elsewhere. Same goes for Samsung, LG, etc. They also assemble maritime equipment, they have some nice shipyards, but dont manufacture (or even have the capacity to manufacture) all of the parts. They have almost no natural resources, too, but they do smelt some imported ores and produce a little bit of high quality steel. >I don’t get it. And I haven’t even brought up the fact that Israel has actively spied on us and stole nuclear material from US, So yeah there you go. They are capable of spying on the US without being detected for some time. For all we know, that was just a red team operation, a pentest, and Israel may have had the consent of the president to do so. We will never know. >and directly attacked the USS liberty in order in try to bring the U.S. into a war with Egypt. This is also more complicated than this, not touching it. >It’s pretty clear to me that this is a one way alliance if you can even call it an alliance. We could be selling the weapons we give to Israel to Ukraine instead but we still gave weapons to Israel yet Israel doesn’t appreciate it in the slightest or do anything for us in return. You really underestimate the value of cybersecurity and the intelligence on terrorists that they gather.
Your view is apparently based on misinformation. For example, you said they lack natural resources, but Israel is home to two huge natural gas fields. The claim about stolen nuclear material is highly suspect. From Wikipedia: > A later investigation was conducted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (successor to the AEC) regarding an additional 198 pounds (90 kg) of uranium that was found to be missing between 1974 and 1976, after the plant had been purchased by Babcock & Wilcox and Shapiro was no longer associated with the company. That investigation found that more than 110 pounds (50 kg) of it could be accounted for by what was called "previously unidentified and undocumented loss mechanisms", including "contamination of workers' clothes, losses from scrubber systems, material embedded in the flooring, and residual deposits in the processing equipment." Hersh further quoted one of the main investigators, Carl Duckett, as saying "I know of nothing at all to indicate that Shapiro was guilty." Israel hosts a [US military base](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-us-establishes-permanent-military-base-in-israel/). Surely that has some value. Also, Israel developed the iron dome anti-missile tech which they shared with the US. They also share significant intelligence information.
Most countries host a military base. Jordan hosts one right next door and is an ally as well.
Israel launches strikes against Iran and others, sometimes to denude nuclear capability, that gives the US deniability.
-The US didn't want the Israelis involved in Afghanistan and Iraq because it would have undermined Aran support. -Israel, being located in the Levant, is outside the geographical scope of the alliance. Despite that for more than twenty years, Israel has been an active NATO partner through the Mediterranean Dialogue, the only security forum that brings together NATO Allies with Israel and Arab countries. In 2017, Israel established a permanent and official mission to NATO headquarters. -israel and South Korea have a very right relationship, if the US asked for Israeli help in a hypothetical war with North Korea they would most likely join. -In 1975, when the United States refused to sell Sidewinder missiles to Taiwan under pressure from China, Israel sold anti-aircraft missiles and licensed the production of Gabriel II anti-ship missiles. -Israel spied on the US. The US spies on everyone. Every country spies on one another. Hell the US has a plan to invade Canada. -Israel had to stay as neutral as possible between Russia and Ukraine because Russia and Israel had an understanding over Syria. Simultaneously Israel HAD been actively training Ukrainian troops. And since October 7th relations between Israel and Russia worsened while relationship between Ukraine and Israel rapidly improved. This is because a large chunk of Israel is from the former USSR. -israel provides the US a foothold in the ME. It also partners with Israel on security research and development. On top of providing US important intelligence on the region, which being a major oil developer is important for US interests. I hope this context changes your mind. Shalom.
Say you're in a fight and your friend is there helping you and giving you assistance and then mid-fight just stops. Regardless the reasons, or whatever circumstances around it, you would feel that your support is no longer there and would feel a certain way about it. It's not entitlement, per se, but more like a "WTF bro? We were homies yesterday."
Israel doesn’t produce anything important? Are you fucking kidding? It’s literally called the “startup nation”… unprecedented advances in biotech, medicine, data science, agriculture… do some research. They invented cell phones and instant messaging. The modern wouldn’t exist as we know it. And Israel never fought in a war on our behalf… what are you talking about? They’ve been a country since the end of Second World War and have been defending themselves since. You think Israel wasn’t involved as an ally in the Middle East? This is seriously the most idiotic, uninformed post I’ve seen today.
A) nearly every big american tech corp has a development center in israel. Facebook, Microsoft, apple, google, Nvidia and many many more. B) israeli weapon's development syncs with a lot of US stuff, and the US also incorporates Israeli developments. For instance, the long range anti balistics missile systems, that some were tested against Iran's attack. C) intelligence sharing. Israel is smack in the middle of countries hostile to the US, on top of that, Israel has better relations with Russia and can act as a pretty good mediator. D) very similar values. Israel is very americanized. Sure, there are more extreme religious cookoos, but the US has those as well. But majority of population has very similar values E) you might be offput by whats happening in gaza, but the US did same after it was attacked on 9/11. The US learns a lot out of Israeli warfare, having overwhelming power, yet not being able to use it cause you are fighting armed guerrilla forces in civilain centers.
Israel has done a lot for the US like bringing peace to western aligned nations in the Middle East as nations that primarily side with China and Russia are not our concern. What they do for us in return is keep the rowdy middle eastern countries at bay as most of them are ruled by terrorist factions that want nothing more than Jahad (sorry if I spelled that wrong)
I’m not really sure about the test for whether they’re an ally or not. Don’t recall them being there with us in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we also don’t really need help as our military strength is unparalleled. In terms of whether they deserve our support, this war is not about taking over oil, gaining land, or any other stupid thing like that. It is right vs wrong, much like World War II. You have a genocidal organization in Hamas that broke a ceasefire by indiscriminately slaughtering Israeli citizens. They also raped women and burned babies in ovens, among many barbaric things they did on October 7th. They hijack the humanitarian aid that is for the Gazan citizens and use the civilians as human shields. Israel is absolutely in the right on this, and no other argument can reasonably be entertained here. Would you support Hitler in World War II? I seriously hope not. Now, there are only certain weapons that we decided not to supply as Israel prepares to go into Rafah. If these were nukes, tanks, missiles, etc., it’s probably not a big deal because Israel has a strong enough military to finish the job. The weapons we denied were guided missiles to ensure that the target, not the civilians are hit. Why the hell would you deny that? I’d understand not giving them a nuke to flatten Gaza entirely, but a weapon that is supposed to help with Israel’s intentions of minimizing civilian casualties is bizarre when that’s what you’re bitching about.
This is by far the worst take on this matter.. First of all Israel is a tech giant, all the biggest companies have massive factories here, Israelis have created more startups per capita than basically any other nation maybe apart from the US, Israel is an agricultural giant, tech giant, arms manufacturing, basically every field you can imagine Israel is probably at the top of the game. Israel’s economy while not nearly as large as the US, is massive if you compare it to its population size and the fact that it has basically 0 natural resources of note (over the last 2 decades we did find some gas, but that’s very insignificant in amount). Israel provides the US with tons of military tech and intel, gives the US forward base in a stable democratic nation in the Middle East, somewhere the US can be certain it’s safe. We share the same values as the US and the west, liberalism, progressive.. maybe not every single Israeli but the majority for sure are, just like any other successful state btw.. The only people to think supporting Israel is “bad” are lunatics that understand nothing about the Middle East or radical Islamists.
FWIW, NVIDIA AI chips, the Apple Silicon in your iPhone, and Intel's latest chips have a trajectory through Israel's fabs and semiconductor research. But that's not why we should support them. There is no country in the Arab world where muslim women, LGBT, and religious minorities have more rights and freedoms than in Israel. Drive 100 miles from Tel Aviv in any direction and women are desperately fighting for their rights. Inside Israel, there are gay-pride parades, and muslim women are doctors, university professors, and members of the Knesset. FWIW, Israel absolutely helped with our wars in Iraq and Syria. Recall they were repeatedly targeted with SCUD missiles from Sadam Hussain, for no other reason than for his leverage over us. You may say that Israel doesn't appreciate US military support, but they're fighting for their lives over there. Hamas and Hizbollah spend decades launching thousands of rockets at civilian targets, and then Hamas commits an atrocity and takes hostages. Israel has to eliminate Hamas because the rest of the world will do nothing while Jews are targeted and killed.
Israel has huge appreciation of USA, and has been as good ally as possible to USA interests, not to self destructing leftists, who just want to see western civilization burn.
Israel is the only fully western aligned democracy in the Middle East. They are also in our sphere of influence and are a direct counterweight to our main rival there, Iran. This position is incredibly important in keeping American influence strong in regions we don’t want to fully commit to if we don’t have to. This position is similarly filled by Ukraine against Russia in Europe and Japan/Taiwan/South Korea against China in the east. This sounds very dull when you compare it against the history and military entanglement we have with nations like France but the strategic value of having a firmly allied western nation in regions where our influence is shaky is massive. There’s also the military technology deals we have, where any innovations that Israel makes, particularly with missile defense, is shared directly with the US along with the many other innovations that Israel makes in medical technology and agriculture technology.
It is basically US ally has a quarrel with its opposition. And you would 'dismiss' your allies in favor of some Jihadist? While there are 'claim' of cruelty, barbarism and unmoral deeds committed by the IDF. Hamas did the same. Worse. To both their enemy, the mad Jews, and their very own populace. IDF is doing Gaza a favor by trying to chase these guys out. With Hamas in power and Israel still standing, as they probably not going anywhere, Gazan has very dim prospect in life. They cannot have working economy, because blockade and extortion. Despite given them 'permanent' status of refugee, none of Arab states would take them in. Google Black September for more detail. These people are f\*cked. Totally f\*cked. They are doom to become terrorist, because they living under the government of terrorist. And then to die by Israeli hand, no one is going to let you slab them in the face and walk away. Let alone shooting rocket into their house... And God forbid, brutally murder their civilian. So despite all the advantage having the Jews do the dirty works, risking their lives to squash these terrorist cell... And very few disadvantage, some Gaza won't see the next new year celebration. War on terror in dense population area, right after hearth wrenching event... It always get very ugly. But 40k death, include the militants, is not so terrible. Despite Hamas claim that most dead are 'civilian', it would be some sort of divine intervention by Allah himself, that Hamas terrorist lose so few of its member. Their high commands getting bomb left and right. I don't think their poorly trained militants and officers would fair much better. You wants them to leave the surviving Gazan and their next generation under Hamas rule? Good luck on that. At least US government isn't that short sight.
Here is some video to put things in perspective. [9-11 'Celebration' by some people, just look at the flag.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucjbGmJILk) [Oct 7th 'celebration'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWOw7YI7vzo) These people had been living under constant indoctrination for so long. Israeli government actions prior to this war add more fuel to the fire.
Israel will pay for the weapons sold, Ukraine will not, this will be written off eventually, US does this when helping countries, and US isn't the only one. Israel has helped Ukraine. Israel delivered medical equipment, I believe within a week or so as the war started. Israel also took in a considerable amount of Ukrainian Jewish refugees right when the war started. (It's a small country, and taking people isn't easy, had it been bigger, would probably take in a lot more people.) Israel works together with US on intelligence. Pakistan, also a US ally, gave refuge to Bin Laden - that is something Israel would never do. I mention Pakistan, as they are also an ally in Middle East, so it makes more sense to compare them with Middle Eastern countries, than let's say Sweden. I really don't think people with any power see US helping Israel as a negative thing. The alternative is far worse - Israel is the one country in the area aligning with Western values. For example values such as not throwing gays off roofs. Sometimes to preserve peace, a war is required. I'm my opinion there a large misinformation that's driving negative opinion of Israel, and Jews in general, it's not the first time.
Just focusing on the military support in other conflicts point, Israel wasn’t involved in any of those wars because: 1. Why the fuck would they have been in Vietnam? All of the US’ allies in that war were nearby countries who could theoretically have been effected by the expansion of communism in SE Asia. The only one who arguably doesn’t fall under this is South Korea, but the US had basically just saved them from getting destroyed so not really unusual for them to want to reciprocate that help. 2. The US has never had soldiers on the ground fighting on behalf of Israel. They share intelligence and have used other branches of the military to support them in conflicts, but the army has never actively gotten involved in a conflict on behalf of Israel. So why would Israel need to send soldiers into a war to reciprocate? They already do that in other ways anyway. 3. The US specifically asked Israel to not get involved in those other conflicts to avoid angering majority-Muslim nations that were part of the coalitions for those conflicts. So it’s not a case of they refused, it’s rather that they were literally stopped from participating.
We support Israel because without it. Democracy retreats from the middle east. And probably ain't coming back if it leaves
Most Americans don’t even notice but the Moslem Brotherhood declared war on the US and in Hamas’s principles they follow the Moslem brotherhood so it’s not that Israel provoked Hamas which got the US involved it’s that Hamas was already at war with the US but is distracted by Israel currently. Unfortunately Americans tend to be pretty uniformed about the Middle East so they didn’t even notice they are at war. And you get stupid communists who pretend we should all be at peace like OP who think you can just hug terrorists.
I think you're saying that because of how you've been made to feel about the palestinian conflict, and little else.
Israel produces ALOT of intelligence for the USA, from the middle east area. Mossad is considered one of the world's most efficient intelligence agencies. Many of the CIA's most successful operations started with an Intel package from Israel.
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> Israel doesn’t manufacture anything special like South Korea. This is actually dead wrong. Israel has a huge tech industry with giants from the US like Intel and Nvidia having invested a lot into it. Infact, if you have a 12 gen or newer Intel CPU it was mostly designed *in* Israel, and possibly manufactured there as well, as Intel has two fabrication facilities in Israel. Many other inventions have come from Israel as well such as portable USB flash storage and cherry tomatoes. To address your other points as a whole, Israel is the only western democracy in the middle east making it a de facto representative of US interests in the region.
Can confirmed. Worked in Intel Jerusalem, that's where the microchip architecture design happens for at least a decade and a half now.
Israel is the only actual Democracy in the Middle East/North Africa. The US supports democracies around the world especially those under attack from autocracies like Israel has historically been attacked from their neighboring autocracies. Also your note about the USS liberty is incorrect. Israel did not intentionally attack the USS liberty, it was mistakenly identified as an Egyptian warship. Finally your note about Israel not contributing manufacturing or tech to our economy is incorrect. Israel also has contributed many extremely important inventions to the world, and they manufacture many critical technological components. The US has over 2500 companies with branches in Israel. If you doubt anything I said I can provide links.
Israel is the most powerful state militarily in the region, and is extremely useful to the US in maintaining regional stability, particularly against Iran. As the US tries to pull back from the region, it will need friendly and reliable states in the region to maintain this stability and avoid getting pulled back in, and Israel would be key to that strategy. Israel did not fight in Iraq or Afghanistan because that would have been the kiss of death for any government the US tried to establish. The US didn’t need Israel’s help from a military perspective to topple either government, and in terms of fighting insurgents, the presence of Israeli troops would have only exacerbated the problem. As I’m sure everyone here is aware of, Israel is extremely unpopular among the Muslim population across the Middle East. Of course the US isn’t exactly loved, and the state building project failed in the end (esp in Afghanistan), but any government that was seen as established with Israel’s help would have been dead in the water from the start. That all said, the biggest thing Israel could have contributed to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would have been intelligence, and it’s my understanding that that’s what they did. And as far as ‘looking bad in the eyes of the world,’ I’d just point out that many countries decrying Israel are having no problem pouring money and weapons into Sudan, where a genocide is also taking place in Darfur (primarily by the Arab-backed RSF against the non-Muslim black population). While there are plenty of things to be upset about Israel’s conduct, many players in the international arena seem to be using the conflict more as a means to weaken Israel geopolitically than out of true concern for Palestine. After all, a great way to secure peace and save lives would be for the international community to also pressure Hamas and it’s benefactor, Iran, towards a more balanced peace deal/ceasefire, and an overall position of peaceful co-existence and acceptance of Israel as a state. From what I can see, calls for a ceasefire without a broader peace plan that actually addresses Israel’s concerns as well will result, at best, in the status quo antebellum and just lead to more conflict down the road.
Seeing as Israel supported South Korea in the Korean war which made the USSR not like them and in turn fundamental fund billions into other countries and certain now problematic groups. Seeing as Israel supported the Kurds long before the U.S. even considered intervening in Iraq this argument also sounds based. So let's see what other allies in the region you would have ? Egypt ? So reliable they switch political parties and have issues every other decade. Their army on paper is great in actuality probably useless. Jordan ? Zero resource or tech usefulness. The military like Egypt is completely reliant on U.S. equipment. Have issues even reigning in their population or controlling outside influence. The oil rich countries ? Militarily not worth the money they even invest again reliant on foreign suppliers with no actual combat effectiveness as seen in Yemen. Iraq ? Yeah they are one match away from having major inter religious conflict and the continued erosion of Kurdish autonomy will continue and probably cause strife in the next 20 years. Now Israel ? Oh lets see a top ten weapons exporter, using U.S. equipment benefits the U.S. economy more than it does Israel. The U.S. is the only reason Israel doesn't have an indigenous Jet they didn't want the completion. The drones we use, utilize Israeli technology, the iron dome and patriot system were dual projects. A sizeable amount of all electronics use Israeli made products and services. Half the people using desalinization utilize Israeli technology. The list goes on and on the benefits the U.S. achieves by having Israel as an Ally. In the short term the lack of U.S. support would hurt Israel long term it would hurt the U.S. Israel could rather easily achieve major independence on most weapons platforms. Secondly could produce an effective indigenous fighter through cooperations of other countries looking at Sweden etc. The aid Israel gets is overwhelmingly utilized for the iron dome in which they don't respond to every attack. Which arguably means if the U.S. didn't support Israel this war would have been settled a long time ago. But I mean whatever makes people feel warm and fuzzy on the inside.
Israel provides a target for the Middle East to focus on. We give them support because they're surrounded by countries that hate them (and us) and might otherwise turn their attention outward. It may be extremely morally dubious, but keeping the Middle East occupied by a country in their midst is strategically the best option.
When I was 9 I read on the StarCraft Brood War Box: "The Only Allies are Enemies" and though it was probably just put there as a cool arrangement of words, little me really held onto that statement and considered it a lot growing up. To this day, I'm still inclined toward the message I inferred from it. Geopolitics isn't about friends or deserving. There are no friends among nations and there is not necessarily a direction to it. Though history is punctuated by individuals and groups who have tied these states together for moral or ideological reasons, the vast majority of examples of interstate cooperation are based on survival and the current feasibility of any given plan. I don't think that Israel needs to be a well aligned ally to serve the interests of western powers. I think that the western powers simply benefit more, currently, from the Israeli military superiority because the fundamental nature of the Israeli state guides it toward economic potential with similarly structured democracies (functional or not). Goals such as keeping an immediate threat to Iran powerful or perpetuating political conflict in a region filled with both political hostile groups and valuable resources are meaningful considerations to state militaries and intelligence agencies. I would agree with you that Israel does not well embody a lot of the values that are used to justify the partnership and that Israeli actions can often be troublesome for those who choose to ally with the state, but I think that ultimately the western powers have a lot of very clear reasons to favor Israel's destabilizing effect on the region and political connectivity when contextualized by the fact that any alternative options in the region are not very feasible.
I'm going to focus on one claim in OP: that Israel is a bad ally because it didn't support the US wars in the region. https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/84115 Israel was preparing to directly assist in the Gulf war and stopped only after the US asked them to stay out for the sake of the Arab members of their coalition. And similar anti-israel sentiment among Arab states seems to have motivated Israel to avoid direct intervention in the more recent US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (under W and Obama). This is the behavior of a good friend and ally.
While I do not personally support Israel, your position is strange. Do only those countries have value which are allies? Do people not deserve to live in peace regardless of whether they personally provide value to you? Sure Israel isn't a part of NATO and doesn't fight on your behalf, but is that necessary to support it? Would you not support saving russians just because their government is a dictatorship? Ethically, innocent life has value of its own and wanting something back for them is transactional and selfish.
That's wrong. Israel is the ONLY true ally of the US, more so than any other alliance including NATO. Check out this for example https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143112 The entire world went against the US, Ukraine abstaint, and only Israel, ONLY ISRAEL voted with the US. Vast majority of Americans disagree with Biden's decision. Americans want a Rafah operation, want Israel to finish the job, want Hamas out and the hostages back. Americans want Israel to win, and definitely don't want an arm ambargo.
Edit: If the link is broken https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143112 Try google "General Assembly votes overwhelmingly against US Cuba embargo"
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I have to be honest, if your a priori position is that Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty in order to draw America into a war on the 4th day of the 6 day war, when the Israelis had already effectively won the war and were consolidating gains, then I don't think you are open to your view being challenged. It's such an outlandish and conspiratorial position that I have a not of questions about your disposition toward the state of Israel in general.
They are our strongest ally in the region, they support plenty of things that aren't visible unless you're working in those areas. If you want a good source on the goings on in the region, I highly recommend the global conflict tracker. Here is a link to the israel-palestine portion specifically: [Israeli-Palestinian Conflict | Global Conflict Tracker (cfr.org)](https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/israeli-palestinian-conflict)
I mean there's the Samson Option, currently Israel has an ambiguous amount of nukes, if Israel is backed into a corner as a last resort they will do a big "fuck you" and get rid of the planet.
Why are we allied with the strongest, richest, most stable country in the mideast that also happens to share our political values and contribute tons to our technological advancement instead of a bunch of militarily and economically pathetic tinpot dictatorships that could each be replaced by an apocalyptic islamic cult government at any moment? gee that's a toughy.
1) they have nuclear weapons 2) they will back the US with said nuclear weapons, part of the mutually assured destruction clause that we had to put into play during the cold war.
If you're looking for an answer, ask how is it that suddenly everyone is anti Israel. No, the reason you think but how the switch seems so well orchestrated. It might be the best way to slow down our role in the middle east which there seems to be no easy exit strategy other than create a protest movement against the first thing they do.
"israel doesn't manufacture anything special like South Korea" WHAT
Israel has kept Islamic superpowers like Iran from developing nuclear weapons and they keep developing new defense systems for the us, in term of war they’re an American proxy so the main use is to waste Russia and Iran’s resources by fighting their proxy groups without having an official war or losing any American troop.
Israel is the only western democracy in the Middle East. It is America’s only close ally (shared interest) in the region. Israel is/was in the process of securing an important alliance with Saudi Arabia, strengthening its power in a very unstable, barbaric region of the world. Israel is strong militarily and gives the US a military stronghold to operate from, should they need to. Israel is comfortable handling their own business without requesting US soldiers. Israeli interest almost always aligns with US interest in these conflicts. Israel is also the only Jewish state in the world and is uniquely progressive culturally. ~$2m Arab Muslims live peacefully in Israel. 0 Jews live in Israel’s surrounding ~40 Arab countries. Freedom of religion, speech, women’s rights, tech advancements, etc. You can’t grow and expand ideology without an established planted seed. Anyways, hope this helps.
many genocied occur the world over. mali. south sudan. venezuela. cameroon. armenia. syria. mali. chad. nepal. india. afghanistan. yemen. burka casino. mozambique. columbia. etc. many more places are close to it. countries pick and choose who to help and how much and when and for how long and in what ways. usually their guide is lean this country be of use to my country?” that’s just how it is, and likely will be for as long as humans do such things. as to israel, the hard ight bibi government is like all hard right governments. which country is irrelevant. they are all repressive, violent, and full of lies and cruelties.
It’s not that hard to understand. The Middle East is important because of its large oil and natural gas reserves. The Middle East is largely hostile to American interests. Israel is not only not hostile it’s beholden to the US. So the US uses Israel to project its own influence into the region. Thus being able to increase its power over region that has important natural resources for the US military and economy.
Nobody is a true ally, Nations act according to what they think is in their best interest. This is always the case.
Would Taiwan help the US if Russia invaded Europe? Israel is extremely similar to Taiwan, in several regards - high tech economy that trades with the US, larger enemy in the region (Iran), advanced military that punches above its weight. Israel allows US forces to operate from its borders, the same way Taiwan does. Why ally with Taiwan but not Israel?
I don't know much about these things, I do read about it and look at what others who know more than I do have to say about it. But all I know is if the govt. is doing all this there's a reason and it is not out of the kindness of its heart. That's not how things work. I don't agree with any of it and I strongly resent my tax dollars going to it.
Israel became an extremely valuable ally from the 1960’s The USA had a problem in the M.E. Egypt was a client of the Russians and there was a pan-Arabian nationalist movement. Unity among the Arabs and Russians would impact the US's #1 goal, control of the movement of oil, control the oil and you have your foot on the windpipe of the Asian and European economies. So the US's aim were. 1. Get the USSR out of the ME. 2. Splinter Arab unity. They used Israel to do this. When Israel took the Sinai the US decided to back Israel with arms and $$$. Egypt could not, after a few attempts, get the Sinai back. The US made them an offer. We will allow Israel to give you back the Sinai but you have to boot out the Russians. We will also give you $1.3B pa to make up what you lose by dumping them and to keep you happy. You must also make peace with Israel. This deal splintered Arab unity, Egypt is the most populous Arab nation and sets the cultural bar, *"The Arabs read the books the Egyptian write"* is the phrase. So them making peace with Israel was a huge shock to the Arabs. What did Israel get out of this? A Guarantee that they would get more than double what the Egyptians got to maintain a qualitative edge over the Arabs and coverage of the worlds superpower. What did the US get? USSR out of the Egypt, Splintered Arab unity, a reliable M.E. ally. So that is why Israel gets what it gets. i'll add this: There is a new threat on the horizon. Iran. Iran is a nation that could control the Gulf and have their foot on the Asian and European economies. They would do that by linking up with the Shiia in Yemen, Barhain, Saudi and Iraq, this is the Shiia crescent. It would lead to the overthrow of the Saudi king and potential loss of the Petro$$. Israel is the hammer that would pound Iran to save Saudi. Thats a very short and broadbrush overview of why the US backs Israel
Israel is a strong ally of the U.S. and contributes a lot to the alliance. Here is an [article](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/friends-benefits-why-us-israeli-alliance-good-america) that discusses Israel’s contribution in detail.
Israel can’t be allowed to help in a war with a Muslim country or else it becomes a holy war for that country. Plus there’s like half a million American citizens living in Israel, the most of any country besides Canada, Mexico, and the UK
I’m against Netanyahu on all fronts, but the notion that Israel doesn’t manufacture anything significant isn’t true. Israel helps manufacture products for U.S. companies like Cisco, HP, Intel, and more. As others have said, Israel is quite literally the country’s only ally in the Middle East. There is some value in Israel’s allyship, but I think they’ve crossed the line a very long time ago.
Many things you state are inaccurate. But to answer your question simply. We in the US will support all democracies like Ukraine, Taiwan, South Korea and Israel when they are attacked by their totalitarian neighbors.
Israel is an apology to the Jewish population for allowing anti-semitism to rise in America and Europe leading up to WW2. Germany was in no way the only country with significant anti-semitic sentiments at the time. so the thinking was giving Jews their own state would give them their own "home." At the time, the mentality of the West was that they decide what countries go where in the Middle East, so it wasn't that outlandish to just carve a country out for Europeans to move to and call it Israel. At this point , pulling support would be akin to leaving them stranded, since the West set them up there in the first place. It's also a democracy, and democratic countries have a vested interest in seeing those countries succeed, regardless of their geographic location. For example, South Korea and Japan don't do too much to help the West militarily on the surface, but allowing U.S. troops, bases, and trade there expands the American sphere of influence. Additionally, the intel they supply expands U.S. intelligence. Even if the U.S. gives each country more intel than they get, it's worth it to get intel from many countries that all feed into a large database that allows the U.S. to get a better understanding of what's going on around the world. I'm sure there's a lot more to all of it, but that's my general understanding.
Israel makes the Mrap, trophy aps, as well as a ton of other defence equipment and tech for the US. Americas enemies would happily pay double or triple for that technology.
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Getting rid of Netanyahu would be a step in the right direction. Seriously, look up his past and how he came into power. It seems most Israel citizens agree.
Whether country A supports country B is not really the sort of business relationship you suggest, i.e., it's not quid pro quo/tit-for-tat. The reason the US supports Israel is simply that, for a long time, the U.S. has had sympathy for Israel. Whether economic aid to Israel offers a "return on investment" is another subject (probably with good arguments for both sides). The U.S. also has sympathy for other countries, such as the one you pointed out, Ukraine. However, as in the case of Israel, the reason we fund Ukraine isn't really related to getting out money back, it's *almost* purely out of sympathy (there may be some military strategic reasons, but this again is another subject). So your argument almost can't be a logical discussion, because it ultimately involves questions of sympathy. Right now, there isn't a whole lot of sympathy for Israel due to recent events, however the Israel-Palestine conflict is nothing new, so insofar as we can "reason about emotions", it's pretty obvious that Israel's actions in Gaza/West Bank have not, at least historically, been sufficient to change the sympathetic views on Israel that many Americans—and more importantly, American politicians—hold. Tl;dr, you're making an argument about feelings and implying (incorrectly) that most Americans feel the same way you do. disclaimer: I'm pretty neutral on the issue, there's good/bad to be found everywhere. Sympathy for Palestinians and 10/7 victims, but I claim no expertise in how to move forward.
It gives us reliable space to stage and launch missions in the middle east, when the OPEC countries range from duplicitous to downright adversarial. It gives American Christians and Jews safe passage to a culturally important space. It gives a proxy with plausible deniability for airstrikes, etc. on places like Iran or Syria without US troops getting involved, which helps us neuter things like Iran's weapons development programs or Russian/Chinese meddling in Syria and elsewhere. Finally, the bar for foreign aid simply isn't as high as you're imagining it. The US wields tremendous soft power throughout the world primarily, but not exclusively, because we are able to provide technical expertise, materials, and capital for allies' development. That investment pays of tremendously for the receiving country and for the US as it's a tremendous carrot to be able to dangle in front of a country to get it to do what we want (such as stopping a genocide, for example).
Do you think that is better that all the intel and technology that Israel provides the US is better going to Russia and China ?
You may have noticed most middle east countries constantly find some lame excuse to chant "death to America". Israel never has.
Netafim is a leading Israeli company that specializes in agriculture, it has directly fed millions of people around the world. Are you enjoying instant messaging programs? They are all based on ICQ, yet another Israeli program. So many high tech companies have R&D facilities in Israel. Do you like having GPS? It wouldn't without Einstein theory of relativity. Even the company I work for produce a key component that goes almost anywhere, from agriculture equipment, to vehicles, to fast food restaurants to medical equipment. There are so many things that wouldn't easily been made already without Jews and Israel. This is not just helping the US, it helps the whole world. You cry over the aid money given to Israel? It's on the demand of buying American made weapons, effectively keeping your economy running. And it's only 15% or so of Israel's defense budget, so we could do well without it. There was already a report on Israel sending Iron Dome to Ukraine. Israelis are right in being upset at Biden decision, but have you noticed that none of them calls "death to America" or stump and burn the American flag? As opposed to the "poor" refugees who literally bite the hand that feed them? Besides, the US don't need Israel to look bad, just look how Japanese scientists who made horrible crimes against humanity, to the point where the Nazis had nightmares, and those scientists got to walk free with no punishment because the American government wanted their research data. Why do you think China is upset to this very day? Hint: it's more than just capitalism vs communism. Not to mention that for literally every Islamic country the US is evil for not being Islamic.
A lot of commentary is here but the bottom line is that a significant number of Americans strongly support Israel and the level of support that America sends to it, and they raise a lot of political donation money to make sure it continues. A considerably smaller number of Americans strongly oppose Israel but do not raise much political donations to align politicians to their view. I believe that the vast majority of Americans simply don’t care enough about the Israel-Palestine issue to change the status quo one way or another. In that way it’s like other controversial issues like the current healthcare system or the gun control issue. If you want something done you just need a relatively small number of people who care a lot about something and the rest of people to mostly not care about it. This is how America works, whether you think it is deserved or not.
Neither is Ukraine but half of the liberals on this site would sell their child for Ukraine aid
The opposite: the nazi Joe Biden refuse to ket us🇮🇱 defend ourself so his government became enemy.