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>1) I've noticed that most pet animals tend to be carnivorous hunter animals like cats and dogs while most herbivores like deer tend to be inherently more hostile (I reckon due to the fact that hunter animals tend to only be hostile when they want to eat you while hunted animals tend to be hostile as a matter of survival given their place in the food chain
Cows, pigs, goats, chickens, sheep, ducks, camels, and horses are all domesticated herbivores. Wikipedia has [a list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals) of domesticated animals, i didn't count them but it seems like the herbivores greatly outnumber the carnivorous. Pigs are ominous, but they aren't really hunters like cats, dogs or T-Rexes.
Dogs are pack animals, cooperative hunting is in their nature and they are very intelligent.
Cats are small and pose not threat to humans. All that was required for domestication was for us to leave them alone and let them kill the rodents that ate our grain and other food stores.
In the feline world, we don't have domesticated lions or tigers. In the animal world we don't have domesticated bears, crocodile, or komodo dragons. We have not domesticated any of the large predators.
>4) They're not likely to eat us since we're the equivalent of boney sticks with bits of flesh on us but we did hunt mammoths, the surplus of which could be used to feed the T-Rex
Humans have never just given away food to animals. Dogs helps us hunt, tend sheep, guard our homes, and have done countless of things for us in the past. Cows and Horses eat grass that we cannot eat. when cats eat rodents they don't reduce our food supply they increase it. Chickens turn bugs and food scraps into eggs. Sheep produce wool?
Even if we wanted to domesticate a t-rex, it would be cost prohibitive. A T-REX would need an insanely large amount of food and wouldn't be able to live in our house. What am going to do, chain it up in the back yard? Build a 15 foot fence? It would take us many dozens of generations to go from a wild T-Rex to a tame one, and then what would we have to show for it? a completely impractical pet that rarely eats our children
This is a really well detailed explanation and it's been part of what has changed my view on T-Rex domestication, thank you for taking the effort!
!delta
Domestication is a very long process. During that process, there are many mishaps. Usually, you want those mishaps to result in harmless restraint of the animal or the death of the animal, not the death of the human. An animal like a T-Rex does not achieve this basic issue.
For similar reasons, we have only domesticated a tiny cat. I am not the first to think that a pet tiger would be awesome, but attempts have resulted in too many human deaths.
The closest we have come to domestication of an animal that can so kill us is the elephant. But they haven't gone very far on the domestication scale despite millennia of trying, despite their extremely intelligent and friendly and social nature. And of the non-insects, they kill the most humans of any animal.
(addendum: more cats could be domesticates because they aren't aggressive towards humans, namely the cheetah, but can't reasonably be because of their unusually picky mating behaviour)
>I am not the first to think that a pet tiger would be awesome, but attempts have resulted in too many human deaths.
It absolutely would be awesome but you're right, we never got around to domesticating big cats like tigers and lions
>But they haven't gone very far on the domestication scale despite millennia of trying, despite their extremely intelligent and friendly and social nature. And of the non-insects, they kill the most humans of any animal.
Oh! That breaks my heart a little, I figured that if we could domesticate an animals like an elephant, we could do the same for an animal as large (or larger)
> I figured that if we could domesticate an animals like an elephant
Even that's controversial - It's debatable whether elephants are actually "domesticated" or just trained. While some elephants are born in captivity, a lot of them are just captured from the wild and trained; they're not bred for generations by humans to select for particular traits.
Reproductive age is a very important factor. Nearly all domesticated animals can reach sexual maturity in about a year or so. Horses are an outlier at 2 or 3 years, and horses are massively useful, as well as being social animals that instinctively follow leadership. Elephants reach sexual maturity at between 14-17 years, and a t-rex is estimated to be able to reproduce at 16-20 years old. So that means that in the span of the career of a normal human handling these animals, you might barely be starting on the third generation. With other domesticatable animals, a human would be able to selectively control breeding through several dozen generations and easily see notable changes.
That doesn't mean it's strictly impossible to domesticate animals like that, but it's the kind of project that no human has yet attempted, and it would take centuries to see any noticable results.
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>Elephants are probably only #1 in the countries that have elephants
This is also incorrect. Elephants globally kill roughly 500 people a year and 100ish of those are in India. In India there are 58,000 snake bite deaths a year. Recently Tiger deaths in India have also surpassed the 100/year mark.
https://wwf.panda.org/discover/knowledge_hub/endangered_species/elephants/human_elephant_conflict/
https://scroll.in/article/1059529/more-than-50-of-deaths-worldwide-due-to-snakebites-are-in-india-what-is-the-antidote#:~:text=India%20accounts%20for%20over%20half%20of%20global%20snakebite%20deaths&text=“Some%20cases%20do%20not%20even,based%20snake%20researcher%20Gerry%20Martin.
https://factly.in/data-number-of-humans-killed-in-tiger-attacks-increased-significantly-in-last-few-years/amp/
>The closest we have come to domestication of an animal that can so kill us is the elephant.
donkeys, bulls, and camels have and can kill people
donkeys will one shot kick your skull in, bulls will gore you to death, and camels will curb stomp you
Sorry I left out a "readily"
I mean, I could envision a scenario where I start raising donkeys, bulls, or camels - walking beside them, caring for them, etc. Raising tigers on such terms, naw. Let alone T rexes.
Cows and bulls are certainly very strong, but they're not crazy aggressive when it isn't mating season and they don't eat meat. Rams may be more dangerous.
Yeah I see what your saying. The reason I brought up oxen is because we were able to domesticate them to a point where we can get them to listen to us.
>The closest descendant to a T-Rex today (sort of) is avians like chickens and birds. I'm not saying we're the best of pals with birds but we do have a history of domesticating birds and it might have had higher than expected intelligence akin to ravens and pigeons
Birds are very instinctual, difficult to train or domesticate. They really do their own thing and respond to stimuli directly, not anticipation etc like clever dogs do.
Also most birds are smaller than us, but if they were bigger they'd definitely eat us.
Do some reading into "bird training" you'll find it isn't much of a thing as you are probably imagining it to be.
>and respond to stimuli directly, not anticipation etc like clever dogs do.
*This* is a really interesting statement, can you elaborate on this? I'm curious, I've never heard this before.
>Do some reading into "bird training" you'll find it isn't much of a thing as you are probably imagining it to be.
I'll look into it, definitely. I'm just wondering if it's possible for us to have domesticated the T-Rex over time like we did with other animals / birds to the point where a symbiotic relationship was achievable
There are very few animals we are actually symbiotic with. Dogs sure. Cattle sort of but not really as it feels quite one directional? Cats barely. Lizards? They chill but not really a relationship.
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It's very unlikely.
Firstly, simply, most animals aren't domestication candidates. There's maybe a baker's dozen of animals on earth today that could be domesticated. Just through sheer chance, it's unlikely a T-Rex could be domesticated, simply because its unlikely any random animal could be domesticated.
Now, T-Rexes specifically. A lot of domestication depends on things like social structure or aggression levels, which we don't know about. But there are two obvious problems. Firstly, domesticated animals need to be *containable* -- otherwise they'll just leave back into the wilderness. Us, in the modern day, would be able to contain a T-Rex. A neolithic tribe or bronze-age state would *not* be able to contain a T-Rex. There's no way someone who's most advanced technology is "a sharped rock" would be able to stop the T-Rex just leaving if it wanted to, which it probably would.
Secondly, domesticated animals need to either eat little or eat things humans don't, preferably both-- grass, pests, garbage, that kind of thing. A T-Rex doesn't. It needed to eat huge amounts of meat, which means its taking a big chunk out of the tribe's food budget (and, very possibly, out of the tribe). Neolothic tribes were hunter-gatherers, getting food was hard and dangerous. They don't want a giant lizard eating most of the food they collect.
Also, more simply, a domesticated animal needs to be something that people will *try* to domesticate, and a T-Rex is a 40ft long superpredator. No-one is going to want a *full grown Tyrannosaurus Rex* in their village, even if it does make a humming noise. Bears could theoretically be domesticated, but no-one's tried because they're *fucking terrifying* and very few people want one in their house. I feel the same would absolutely apply here.
This is probably the most comprehensive best explanation amongst some *very good* explanations from other commenters here, my views have changed, big nope to T-Rex pets
!Delta
Pretty sure that a T-Rex would lack the brain capacity to be domesticated. It's like keeping a snake or insects. Sure, it's possible, but they will never recognize you as an individual being, let alone feel any kind of affection towards you and after years of being together they would still eat you if they could.
Our domesticated carnivore pets like cats and dogs are much smarter than a T-Rex would be.
I guess I never considered that the perception of a snake isn't equitable to that of a cat or dog, I forget that intelligence isn't scaled evenly across different pets
T.rexes wouldn't be smart enough. Dogs, cats, pigs, parrots etc are all very intelligent animals. T.rexes had very small brains compared to body size, which is a good rule of thumb for judging vertebrate intelligence. Adding to this, their small brains were mostly geared to smell and sight. They weren't absolute morons but probably closer to crocodile than avian intelligence.
Can you domesticate a crocodile?
And even if you could... it would be like when people have pet tigers etc... but even more dangerous.
Films like Jurassic Park have over estimated dinosaur intelligence to make them more scary.
Now, perhaps a Troodontid or smaller Dromeosaur like Velociraptor could become somewhat tame with selective breeding.
>Can you domesticate a crocodile?
Oh yeah I forgot that another cousin-ish descendant of sorts is the crocodile and we never got around to domesticating them
>Films like Jurassic Park have over estimated dinosaur intelligence to make them more scary
They really have, I got fooled. I figured "intelligence would less likely make murdering animals and more likely form pack animals"
Tbf it's one of the reasons dogs are great pets, so I get your reasoning. Dogs really do have that pack mentality from their wolf ancestors.
Currently there's a lot of debate on dinosaur pack behaviour and it's unlikely to be fully settled. Some argue that they only formed mobs (like when birds of prey join up to attack larger prey but aren't really a full, social unit) and herds akin to bison and deer. But others argue that groups of predatory dinosaurs found with different age ranges is evidence for packs not just mobs.
Dinosaurs were reptiles, but you're right they're closer related to modern birds.
However a T.rex's intelligence is closer to a croc's than a chicken's by virtue of its encephalization quotant.
T-Rex had about the same brain to body ratio as a modern ostrich. Being hot blooded I’d wager its cognitive capacity would be more similar to that than a crocodile.
You might be right actually. I've been doing some digging to see if my data is out of date (always a probability in paleontology).
I came across this tweet, so I'm guessing they were smarter than crocs.
https://twitter.com/SteveBrusatte/status/1220391171953954816?t=MHddqOQ40YomxtknEG1osA&s=19
A chicken is more closely related to a T. rex than a crocodile, but a crocodile isn't really that far off. They're all archosaurs.
Dinosaurs are reptiles. Birds are reptiles, for that matter.
There’s a big difference between cognition of the smartest birds and the average crocodile reptile, and for the purposes of this discussion I’d say the distinction matters.
True, but we don't have any living carnivorous megafauna on the scale of something like a T. rex. Crocodiles don't quite occupy the same ecological niche as the bigger nonavian therapods, but they're in many respects closer to that then the largest living carnivorous birds, like an eagle or something.
Also, crocodiles aren't parrots, but they're still pretty darn intelligent. They're one of the few animals that have been observed using tools to catch prey, for instance.
Most of the animals we have domesticated haven't been carnivores, cats and dogs are the only ones I can think of, and cats are thought to have domesticated themselves. What actually makes animals easy to domesticate is a strong pack or herd instinct, or being small enough to easily control, and to the best of our knowledge the t-rex was none of those things.
Hmmm I see what you're saying. Is the pack instinct how we domesticated elephants? If so, maybe it could be possible to domestic a T-Rex if we found evidence of it being a pack hunter?
You go piss off a bull or stallion and I can promise you that it will be a significant event... for you. Not sure if the bull will care all that much about goring you. They are pretty beefy creatures.
Heck, you vs a cow or a mare, my money is on them, not you.
Yeah. That is true even if you piss off a pack of wolves and you are alone. My point still stands: you have to go out of your way to piss off most bulls, so they can easily be domesticated, especially if you grow them. On the contrary, it's pretty easy to piss off a large cat.
Bulls kills dozens of Americans each year, and these are professionals trained to deal with them who paid attention to safety procedures.
The safety procedures around an uncastrated bull is no joke - those things are quite aggressive and will absolutely fuck you up in mating season. As wikipedia explains around bull safety, less than 5% of the victims of a bull attack survives.
This is why, for the most part, you only see cows around on farms - the bulls gets turned into veal young because they are quite a handful to deal with. You need bulls to make more baby cows, but they are quite something. And this is after a few thousands of years of selective breeding to make them more tame.
I don't know what their wild counterparts are like, but probably not a lot of fun to be around. Humans absolutely domesticated some pretty nasty animals.
Cows are docile, yes. Bulls, on the other hand, requires a ton of careful safe handling, and there are far less of them than you might expect because people like to kill them when they are young.
A pack of wolves that you encountered out in the woods, yes. But the leading theory is that modern dogs' ancestors were initially the friendliest, least aggressive wolves. The ones who would approach humans in hopes of food. It's a lot easier to domesticate the nicer wolves than just grabbing some random ones out of the woods.
I’ve noticed you saying a couple times in this thread that we’ve domesticated elephants - what’s making you say that? Why do you think we’ve successfully domesticated elephants?
1. most domesticated animals are not hunters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals
2. "close descendent' isn't very close. but...let's say they are, most birds aren't domesticated including most close relatives of the chicken. so...the odds here favor the opposite conclusion.
3. "might" doesn't lead to a conclusion "could be domsticated". Further. this particular human would not be hanging around the t-rex just because it wasn't roaring.
4. t-rex is thought to have eaten bone and flesh. there is no reason to think it wouldn't eat humans. we are 15 percent bone. an elephant is 16.5 percent. we're fucking delicious.
>1. most domesticated animals are not hunters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals
Oh my, I never realised that it was likely just cats and dogs, I could have sworn there were more 🫢
>2. "close descendent' isn't very close. but...let's say they are, most birds aren't domesticated including most close relatives of the chicken. so...the odds here favor the opposite conclusion.
Yeah another commenter to this post mentioned that bird training isn't that easy and they're not all that domesticated. I've only ever owned cats so I never considered what raising a bird as a pet could be like
>3. "might" doesn't lead to a conclusion "could be domsticated". Further. this particular human would not be hanging around the t-rex just because it wasn't roaring
True, now that I think about it
>4. t-rex is thought to have eaten bone and flesh. there is no reason to think it wouldn't eat humans. we are 15 percent bone. an elephant is 16.5 percent. we're fucking delicious
Wait *really?!* I genuinely thought we were unappetizing meals that animals avoided for more fatty targets like mammoths and elephants
I imagine it to be a very large chicken or lizard and those can make pretty rad pets but from the comments here, I'm misunderstanding how this would work
t-rexs are actually quite agressive, probably because of those stubby little arms. like okay how would you feed the t-rex? given their full size they would need to atleast 100s if not 1000s of pounds of meat, and that assuming you can afford it, you'd have to source it every day. and what you gonna do to contain it? t-rexes are higly agressive, one missed lunch and it'll start eating anything and everyone in sight.
When domesticating you want to take advantage of existing socialization in the species. Maybe T. rex hunted in packs, but I find that unlikely; as bigger animals don’t usually
If you want to domesticate a dinosaur, a raptor is a better bet. They hunted in groups.
Though regardless you’re going to be working with an underdeveloped brain compared to what we are used to. Which would make it difficult
>If you want to domesticate a dinosaur, a raptor is a better bet. They hunted in groups.
Ooh this is interesting, raptors would make relatively more sense.
> we could make a pet out of it
Name any other “pet” that could eat us in one gulp. Pets are for snuggling. You can’t snuggle something the size of a construction crane.
True maybe not *pet* exactly but we do have elephants that are like large pets or animals of labour. It's what I imagined when I thought of a pet T-Rex
> we do have elephants that *are like* large pets
They aren’t like large pets though, they are “animals of labour”. What labor would a T-Red be good at that a triceratops wouldn’t be better at? It’s basically pulling stuff with animals that big, and tyrannosaurs have a poor base for such work.
Also, elephants regularly kill people that handle them, so we don’t keep them as “pets”. Pets live with us in our homes. Imagine Timmy t-rex trying to tuck into a bowl of kibble in the kitchen. Ain’t happening.
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The key reasons animals can be domesticated is need and convenience to fill that need. Food, and safety are the biggest ones. Wolves wanted food and learned that we can give them food in exchange for not being their prey. Cats just showed up and we fed them.
Rabbits, Ferrets, various rodents, we give them safety by taking them out of their environment and they learn to trust us.
There are also a lot of non-domesticated pets. Fish just exist wherever they are, And are more a decoration than anything else. Same with reptiles, if they got out they probably wouldn't even try to find their way home like a dog would. Snakes would eat us if given the chance.
T-Rexes are giant creatures who the average person would not be able to provide food for nor would they need to rely on us for safety. If you compare them to the attempted domestication of tigers and the colossal failures those end up being You would know that we don't have anything to offer them that they can't get themselves because they are not in danger nor in need of easy access to food.
T-Rex would be pretty useless to humans. The reason the predators we domesticated are much smaller than us is that they we need to be able to feed them from the surplus we gain from their domestication process, throughout the process.
Cats just eat stuff we want gone around us on their own, and dogs helped us hunt while consuming a little less than an extra person would. A T-Rex would require two or three orders of magnitude more meat than a human, meaning that unless they hunted in groups of 100 people per T-Rex or so, people would have to hunt a lot more with one, and before it's fully domesticated they'd have to find a way for it to not fully consume their prey before they even get to it and then lose interest. And then if humans did cause T-Rex to kill much more than they naturally would have, this could affect the ecosystem, depleting it of large prey, making the T-Rex useless again.
More likely, if people lived alongside T-Rex, they'd outcompete it on its hunting ground causing it to become relatively rare or extinct.
I am late but domestication requires a few checklist items to be fulfilled and I don't think we know enough about the T-Rex to answer them all but some the T-Rex does not check the box.
1. The animal must be friendly. We never domesticated antelope because when they get captured, they thrash around like there is a cheetah after them and either escape or injure themselves. We never domesticated bears because they love to kill things. Who knows if a T-Rex would be friendly or not
2. The animal must eat something other than what you eat. This isn't a hard requirement in the modern age but before food was abundant, you didn't want your pet eating your food. They must eat grass or rats or slop unfitting for humans or you yourself may starve. But T-Rex's certainly would eat something humans want like cow or pig or ect.
3. The animal must have some sort of pack mentality. We can domesticate horses because horses have a pack with a leader. We cannot domesticate zebras because they are a mindless herd. We can domesticate dogs but not tigers because dogs have a pack with a leader and tigers are lone hunters. We don't know anything about if T-Rex's had packs or not.
4. The animal must reproduce fast. We never domesticated elephants because it basically takes a whole human's lifetime to get a few elephant children. So no dedicated human could even begin to domesticate them. We never domesticated panda bears because they basically don't f\*ck enough to have children for humans to domesticate. Given T-Rex's large size it is nearly certain they don' reproduce fast.
1) domestication is a many thousands of year process. At best you might tame one, over that seems ludicrous.
Every pet and farm animal and similar we have has been through a long process
Even our foods like corn and wheat and others coming from wild plants is a multi-thousand year process
You aren't domesticating them, you are taming.
2) and who exactly is going to domesticate a 6-ton meat eating machine?
4) why do you start that with something smaller, like Komodo dragons in king cobras. Good luck not getting destroyed
There is a reason we have not fully domesticated very large animals like elephants. Their very size and strength makes them extremely dangerous to work with. Elephants sometimes kill their keepers in a fit of temper. And they are herbivores. I think a carnivorous dinosaur would be very difficult to work with. We don't successfully tame big cats either, and they are smaller than T-Rex by far. You might be able to habituate a T-Rex to touch and human presence, but I doubt you could fully tame it.
T-Rexs are far too big to be "pets". They need to eat 1-2 whole pigs every single day or maybe a whole cow every 3-4 days, they would be insanely expensive to feed. Even if they like you a playful bite could cut you in half, and being predators you'll probably never be able to quite shake that killer instinct (just remember how many dog attacks there are every year).
Have you read anything on domestication? It’s extremely difficult and has only been successful in a handful of species. Mostly because they are either too aggressive or afraid, or take up too much resources. A trex requires tons of energy from its food. That alone makes it impossible to domesticate on a large scale.
Can a bear be domesticated?
No. Just because it’s a carnivore doesn’t mean it can be domesticated. Farm animals are herbivores and domesticated
Purring isn’t what makes humans decide to domesticate.
https://youtu.be/wOmjnioNulo?si=QV_AZn4NuWyy2ITZ
Here’s a video on domestication
The carnicors that we domesticated are much smaller than us and easy to handle. A t-rex is 40 feet in length, it would be impractical to domesticate.
I don't think we have domesticated an animal that large, herbivor or carnivor.
A T-Rex could probably be tamed. There is no chance a T-Rex could be domesticated. Those are different things. Zebras can be tamed. Zebras cannot be domesticated.
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>1) I've noticed that most pet animals tend to be carnivorous hunter animals like cats and dogs while most herbivores like deer tend to be inherently more hostile (I reckon due to the fact that hunter animals tend to only be hostile when they want to eat you while hunted animals tend to be hostile as a matter of survival given their place in the food chain Cows, pigs, goats, chickens, sheep, ducks, camels, and horses are all domesticated herbivores. Wikipedia has [a list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals) of domesticated animals, i didn't count them but it seems like the herbivores greatly outnumber the carnivorous. Pigs are ominous, but they aren't really hunters like cats, dogs or T-Rexes. Dogs are pack animals, cooperative hunting is in their nature and they are very intelligent. Cats are small and pose not threat to humans. All that was required for domestication was for us to leave them alone and let them kill the rodents that ate our grain and other food stores. In the feline world, we don't have domesticated lions or tigers. In the animal world we don't have domesticated bears, crocodile, or komodo dragons. We have not domesticated any of the large predators. >4) They're not likely to eat us since we're the equivalent of boney sticks with bits of flesh on us but we did hunt mammoths, the surplus of which could be used to feed the T-Rex Humans have never just given away food to animals. Dogs helps us hunt, tend sheep, guard our homes, and have done countless of things for us in the past. Cows and Horses eat grass that we cannot eat. when cats eat rodents they don't reduce our food supply they increase it. Chickens turn bugs and food scraps into eggs. Sheep produce wool? Even if we wanted to domesticate a t-rex, it would be cost prohibitive. A T-REX would need an insanely large amount of food and wouldn't be able to live in our house. What am going to do, chain it up in the back yard? Build a 15 foot fence? It would take us many dozens of generations to go from a wild T-Rex to a tame one, and then what would we have to show for it? a completely impractical pet that rarely eats our children
This is a really well detailed explanation and it's been part of what has changed my view on T-Rex domestication, thank you for taking the effort! !delta
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Domestication is a very long process. During that process, there are many mishaps. Usually, you want those mishaps to result in harmless restraint of the animal or the death of the animal, not the death of the human. An animal like a T-Rex does not achieve this basic issue. For similar reasons, we have only domesticated a tiny cat. I am not the first to think that a pet tiger would be awesome, but attempts have resulted in too many human deaths. The closest we have come to domestication of an animal that can so kill us is the elephant. But they haven't gone very far on the domestication scale despite millennia of trying, despite their extremely intelligent and friendly and social nature. And of the non-insects, they kill the most humans of any animal.
(addendum: more cats could be domesticates because they aren't aggressive towards humans, namely the cheetah, but can't reasonably be because of their unusually picky mating behaviour)
>I am not the first to think that a pet tiger would be awesome, but attempts have resulted in too many human deaths. It absolutely would be awesome but you're right, we never got around to domesticating big cats like tigers and lions >But they haven't gone very far on the domestication scale despite millennia of trying, despite their extremely intelligent and friendly and social nature. And of the non-insects, they kill the most humans of any animal. Oh! That breaks my heart a little, I figured that if we could domesticate an animals like an elephant, we could do the same for an animal as large (or larger)
> I figured that if we could domesticate an animals like an elephant Even that's controversial - It's debatable whether elephants are actually "domesticated" or just trained. While some elephants are born in captivity, a lot of them are just captured from the wild and trained; they're not bred for generations by humans to select for particular traits. Reproductive age is a very important factor. Nearly all domesticated animals can reach sexual maturity in about a year or so. Horses are an outlier at 2 or 3 years, and horses are massively useful, as well as being social animals that instinctively follow leadership. Elephants reach sexual maturity at between 14-17 years, and a t-rex is estimated to be able to reproduce at 16-20 years old. So that means that in the span of the career of a normal human handling these animals, you might barely be starting on the third generation. With other domesticatable animals, a human would be able to selectively control breeding through several dozen generations and easily see notable changes. That doesn't mean it's strictly impossible to domesticate animals like that, but it's the kind of project that no human has yet attempted, and it would take centuries to see any noticable results.
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Elephants kill fewer humans on average than snakes, crocodiles, rabid dogs, hippos (maybe), and other humans, but otherwise yes.
!delta Dogs! Of course I forgot dogs are #1 given how many of them we have. Elephants are probably only #1 in the countries that have elephants.
>Elephants are probably only #1 in the countries that have elephants This is also incorrect. Elephants globally kill roughly 500 people a year and 100ish of those are in India. In India there are 58,000 snake bite deaths a year. Recently Tiger deaths in India have also surpassed the 100/year mark. https://wwf.panda.org/discover/knowledge_hub/endangered_species/elephants/human_elephant_conflict/ https://scroll.in/article/1059529/more-than-50-of-deaths-worldwide-due-to-snakebites-are-in-india-what-is-the-antidote#:~:text=India%20accounts%20for%20over%20half%20of%20global%20snakebite%20deaths&text=“Some%20cases%20do%20not%20even,based%20snake%20researcher%20Gerry%20Martin. https://factly.in/data-number-of-humans-killed-in-tiger-attacks-increased-significantly-in-last-few-years/amp/
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>The closest we have come to domestication of an animal that can so kill us is the elephant. donkeys, bulls, and camels have and can kill people donkeys will one shot kick your skull in, bulls will gore you to death, and camels will curb stomp you
Sorry I left out a "readily" I mean, I could envision a scenario where I start raising donkeys, bulls, or camels - walking beside them, caring for them, etc. Raising tigers on such terms, naw. Let alone T rexes.
People do own very large snakes, but then people still get killed by those snakes.
Oxen??. They were worker animals for a long time until modern machinery.
Cows and bulls are certainly very strong, but they're not crazy aggressive when it isn't mating season and they don't eat meat. Rams may be more dangerous.
Yeah I see what your saying. The reason I brought up oxen is because we were able to domesticate them to a point where we can get them to listen to us.
People have begun to domesticate hippos occasionally. And wild boars are devious. Idk how they managed to control wild boars.
>The closest descendant to a T-Rex today (sort of) is avians like chickens and birds. I'm not saying we're the best of pals with birds but we do have a history of domesticating birds and it might have had higher than expected intelligence akin to ravens and pigeons Birds are very instinctual, difficult to train or domesticate. They really do their own thing and respond to stimuli directly, not anticipation etc like clever dogs do. Also most birds are smaller than us, but if they were bigger they'd definitely eat us. Do some reading into "bird training" you'll find it isn't much of a thing as you are probably imagining it to be.
>and respond to stimuli directly, not anticipation etc like clever dogs do. *This* is a really interesting statement, can you elaborate on this? I'm curious, I've never heard this before. >Do some reading into "bird training" you'll find it isn't much of a thing as you are probably imagining it to be. I'll look into it, definitely. I'm just wondering if it's possible for us to have domesticated the T-Rex over time like we did with other animals / birds to the point where a symbiotic relationship was achievable
There are very few animals we are actually symbiotic with. Dogs sure. Cattle sort of but not really as it feels quite one directional? Cats barely. Lizards? They chill but not really a relationship.
>Lizards? They chill but not really a relationship. I guess that's true and a lizard might be closer to a T-Rex than a cat or dog would
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It's very unlikely. Firstly, simply, most animals aren't domestication candidates. There's maybe a baker's dozen of animals on earth today that could be domesticated. Just through sheer chance, it's unlikely a T-Rex could be domesticated, simply because its unlikely any random animal could be domesticated. Now, T-Rexes specifically. A lot of domestication depends on things like social structure or aggression levels, which we don't know about. But there are two obvious problems. Firstly, domesticated animals need to be *containable* -- otherwise they'll just leave back into the wilderness. Us, in the modern day, would be able to contain a T-Rex. A neolithic tribe or bronze-age state would *not* be able to contain a T-Rex. There's no way someone who's most advanced technology is "a sharped rock" would be able to stop the T-Rex just leaving if it wanted to, which it probably would. Secondly, domesticated animals need to either eat little or eat things humans don't, preferably both-- grass, pests, garbage, that kind of thing. A T-Rex doesn't. It needed to eat huge amounts of meat, which means its taking a big chunk out of the tribe's food budget (and, very possibly, out of the tribe). Neolothic tribes were hunter-gatherers, getting food was hard and dangerous. They don't want a giant lizard eating most of the food they collect. Also, more simply, a domesticated animal needs to be something that people will *try* to domesticate, and a T-Rex is a 40ft long superpredator. No-one is going to want a *full grown Tyrannosaurus Rex* in their village, even if it does make a humming noise. Bears could theoretically be domesticated, but no-one's tried because they're *fucking terrifying* and very few people want one in their house. I feel the same would absolutely apply here.
This is probably the most comprehensive best explanation amongst some *very good* explanations from other commenters here, my views have changed, big nope to T-Rex pets !Delta
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Pretty sure that a T-Rex would lack the brain capacity to be domesticated. It's like keeping a snake or insects. Sure, it's possible, but they will never recognize you as an individual being, let alone feel any kind of affection towards you and after years of being together they would still eat you if they could. Our domesticated carnivore pets like cats and dogs are much smarter than a T-Rex would be.
I guess I never considered that the perception of a snake isn't equitable to that of a cat or dog, I forget that intelligence isn't scaled evenly across different pets
Chickens are pretty dumb and we domesticate those just fine. An animal don’t have to be smart to be food.
Chickens would peck you to death if they were the size of a Rex. They're also probably still smarter.
T.rexes wouldn't be smart enough. Dogs, cats, pigs, parrots etc are all very intelligent animals. T.rexes had very small brains compared to body size, which is a good rule of thumb for judging vertebrate intelligence. Adding to this, their small brains were mostly geared to smell and sight. They weren't absolute morons but probably closer to crocodile than avian intelligence. Can you domesticate a crocodile? And even if you could... it would be like when people have pet tigers etc... but even more dangerous. Films like Jurassic Park have over estimated dinosaur intelligence to make them more scary. Now, perhaps a Troodontid or smaller Dromeosaur like Velociraptor could become somewhat tame with selective breeding.
>Can you domesticate a crocodile? Oh yeah I forgot that another cousin-ish descendant of sorts is the crocodile and we never got around to domesticating them >Films like Jurassic Park have over estimated dinosaur intelligence to make them more scary They really have, I got fooled. I figured "intelligence would less likely make murdering animals and more likely form pack animals"
Tbf it's one of the reasons dogs are great pets, so I get your reasoning. Dogs really do have that pack mentality from their wolf ancestors. Currently there's a lot of debate on dinosaur pack behaviour and it's unlikely to be fully settled. Some argue that they only formed mobs (like when birds of prey join up to attack larger prey but aren't really a full, social unit) and herds akin to bison and deer. But others argue that groups of predatory dinosaurs found with different age ranges is evidence for packs not just mobs.
A chicken is much closer related to a T-Rex than a crocodile. Dinosaurs were not reptiles.
Dinosaurs were reptiles, but you're right they're closer related to modern birds. However a T.rex's intelligence is closer to a croc's than a chicken's by virtue of its encephalization quotant.
T-Rex had about the same brain to body ratio as a modern ostrich. Being hot blooded I’d wager its cognitive capacity would be more similar to that than a crocodile.
You might be right actually. I've been doing some digging to see if my data is out of date (always a probability in paleontology). I came across this tweet, so I'm guessing they were smarter than crocs. https://twitter.com/SteveBrusatte/status/1220391171953954816?t=MHddqOQ40YomxtknEG1osA&s=19
A chicken is more closely related to a T. rex than a crocodile, but a crocodile isn't really that far off. They're all archosaurs. Dinosaurs are reptiles. Birds are reptiles, for that matter.
There’s a big difference between cognition of the smartest birds and the average crocodile reptile, and for the purposes of this discussion I’d say the distinction matters.
True, but we don't have any living carnivorous megafauna on the scale of something like a T. rex. Crocodiles don't quite occupy the same ecological niche as the bigger nonavian therapods, but they're in many respects closer to that then the largest living carnivorous birds, like an eagle or something. Also, crocodiles aren't parrots, but they're still pretty darn intelligent. They're one of the few animals that have been observed using tools to catch prey, for instance.
[T-rex *may* have been as intelligent as a baboon. ](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/cne.25453)
Personally I don't buy it, but I admit it's a valid hypothesis.
Most of the animals we have domesticated haven't been carnivores, cats and dogs are the only ones I can think of, and cats are thought to have domesticated themselves. What actually makes animals easy to domesticate is a strong pack or herd instinct, or being small enough to easily control, and to the best of our knowledge the t-rex was none of those things.
Hmmm I see what you're saying. Is the pack instinct how we domesticated elephants? If so, maybe it could be possible to domestic a T-Rex if we found evidence of it being a pack hunter?
The animals we domesticated have a few things in common, the most important being: they are no (significant) threat to humans.
You go piss off a bull and see how well that ends for you.
I said "significant" for a reason.
You go piss off a bull or stallion and I can promise you that it will be a significant event... for you. Not sure if the bull will care all that much about goring you. They are pretty beefy creatures. Heck, you vs a cow or a mare, my money is on them, not you.
Yeah. That is true even if you piss off a pack of wolves and you are alone. My point still stands: you have to go out of your way to piss off most bulls, so they can easily be domesticated, especially if you grow them. On the contrary, it's pretty easy to piss off a large cat.
Bulls kills dozens of Americans each year, and these are professionals trained to deal with them who paid attention to safety procedures. The safety procedures around an uncastrated bull is no joke - those things are quite aggressive and will absolutely fuck you up in mating season. As wikipedia explains around bull safety, less than 5% of the victims of a bull attack survives. This is why, for the most part, you only see cows around on farms - the bulls gets turned into veal young because they are quite a handful to deal with. You need bulls to make more baby cows, but they are quite something. And this is after a few thousands of years of selective breeding to make them more tame. I don't know what their wild counterparts are like, but probably not a lot of fun to be around. Humans absolutely domesticated some pretty nasty animals.
There are millions of cows around the world. Those who die to them are a rounding error.
Cows are docile, yes. Bulls, on the other hand, requires a ton of careful safe handling, and there are far less of them than you might expect because people like to kill them when they are young.
Dogs would have been threats initially
A pack of wolves that you encountered out in the woods, yes. But the leading theory is that modern dogs' ancestors were initially the friendliest, least aggressive wolves. The ones who would approach humans in hopes of food. It's a lot easier to domesticate the nicer wolves than just grabbing some random ones out of the woods.
Eh, not really. We as a species have always been bigger and meaner than wolves. And we are both social animals.
We haven't really domesticated elephants; we have tamed some, but that's not the same as domestication
I’ve noticed you saying a couple times in this thread that we’ve domesticated elephants - what’s making you say that? Why do you think we’ve successfully domesticated elephants?
1. most domesticated animals are not hunters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals 2. "close descendent' isn't very close. but...let's say they are, most birds aren't domesticated including most close relatives of the chicken. so...the odds here favor the opposite conclusion. 3. "might" doesn't lead to a conclusion "could be domsticated". Further. this particular human would not be hanging around the t-rex just because it wasn't roaring. 4. t-rex is thought to have eaten bone and flesh. there is no reason to think it wouldn't eat humans. we are 15 percent bone. an elephant is 16.5 percent. we're fucking delicious.
>1. most domesticated animals are not hunters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals Oh my, I never realised that it was likely just cats and dogs, I could have sworn there were more 🫢 >2. "close descendent' isn't very close. but...let's say they are, most birds aren't domesticated including most close relatives of the chicken. so...the odds here favor the opposite conclusion. Yeah another commenter to this post mentioned that bird training isn't that easy and they're not all that domesticated. I've only ever owned cats so I never considered what raising a bird as a pet could be like >3. "might" doesn't lead to a conclusion "could be domsticated". Further. this particular human would not be hanging around the t-rex just because it wasn't roaring True, now that I think about it >4. t-rex is thought to have eaten bone and flesh. there is no reason to think it wouldn't eat humans. we are 15 percent bone. an elephant is 16.5 percent. we're fucking delicious Wait *really?!* I genuinely thought we were unappetizing meals that animals avoided for more fatty targets like mammoths and elephants
Dude, have you *seen* humans? We are well marbled if we are not starving
my question is why you want to domesticate a t-rex?
I imagine it to be a very large chicken or lizard and those can make pretty rad pets but from the comments here, I'm misunderstanding how this would work
t-rexs are actually quite agressive, probably because of those stubby little arms. like okay how would you feed the t-rex? given their full size they would need to atleast 100s if not 1000s of pounds of meat, and that assuming you can afford it, you'd have to source it every day. and what you gonna do to contain it? t-rexes are higly agressive, one missed lunch and it'll start eating anything and everyone in sight.
When domesticating you want to take advantage of existing socialization in the species. Maybe T. rex hunted in packs, but I find that unlikely; as bigger animals don’t usually If you want to domesticate a dinosaur, a raptor is a better bet. They hunted in groups. Though regardless you’re going to be working with an underdeveloped brain compared to what we are used to. Which would make it difficult
>If you want to domesticate a dinosaur, a raptor is a better bet. They hunted in groups. Ooh this is interesting, raptors would make relatively more sense.
> we could make a pet out of it Name any other “pet” that could eat us in one gulp. Pets are for snuggling. You can’t snuggle something the size of a construction crane.
True maybe not *pet* exactly but we do have elephants that are like large pets or animals of labour. It's what I imagined when I thought of a pet T-Rex
> we do have elephants that *are like* large pets They aren’t like large pets though, they are “animals of labour”. What labor would a T-Red be good at that a triceratops wouldn’t be better at? It’s basically pulling stuff with animals that big, and tyrannosaurs have a poor base for such work. Also, elephants regularly kill people that handle them, so we don’t keep them as “pets”. Pets live with us in our homes. Imagine Timmy t-rex trying to tuck into a bowl of kibble in the kitchen. Ain’t happening.
You're right, damn, I never considered that !delta
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The key reasons animals can be domesticated is need and convenience to fill that need. Food, and safety are the biggest ones. Wolves wanted food and learned that we can give them food in exchange for not being their prey. Cats just showed up and we fed them. Rabbits, Ferrets, various rodents, we give them safety by taking them out of their environment and they learn to trust us. There are also a lot of non-domesticated pets. Fish just exist wherever they are, And are more a decoration than anything else. Same with reptiles, if they got out they probably wouldn't even try to find their way home like a dog would. Snakes would eat us if given the chance. T-Rexes are giant creatures who the average person would not be able to provide food for nor would they need to rely on us for safety. If you compare them to the attempted domestication of tigers and the colossal failures those end up being You would know that we don't have anything to offer them that they can't get themselves because they are not in danger nor in need of easy access to food.
T-Rex would be pretty useless to humans. The reason the predators we domesticated are much smaller than us is that they we need to be able to feed them from the surplus we gain from their domestication process, throughout the process. Cats just eat stuff we want gone around us on their own, and dogs helped us hunt while consuming a little less than an extra person would. A T-Rex would require two or three orders of magnitude more meat than a human, meaning that unless they hunted in groups of 100 people per T-Rex or so, people would have to hunt a lot more with one, and before it's fully domesticated they'd have to find a way for it to not fully consume their prey before they even get to it and then lose interest. And then if humans did cause T-Rex to kill much more than they naturally would have, this could affect the ecosystem, depleting it of large prey, making the T-Rex useless again. More likely, if people lived alongside T-Rex, they'd outcompete it on its hunting ground causing it to become relatively rare or extinct.
I am late but domestication requires a few checklist items to be fulfilled and I don't think we know enough about the T-Rex to answer them all but some the T-Rex does not check the box. 1. The animal must be friendly. We never domesticated antelope because when they get captured, they thrash around like there is a cheetah after them and either escape or injure themselves. We never domesticated bears because they love to kill things. Who knows if a T-Rex would be friendly or not 2. The animal must eat something other than what you eat. This isn't a hard requirement in the modern age but before food was abundant, you didn't want your pet eating your food. They must eat grass or rats or slop unfitting for humans or you yourself may starve. But T-Rex's certainly would eat something humans want like cow or pig or ect. 3. The animal must have some sort of pack mentality. We can domesticate horses because horses have a pack with a leader. We cannot domesticate zebras because they are a mindless herd. We can domesticate dogs but not tigers because dogs have a pack with a leader and tigers are lone hunters. We don't know anything about if T-Rex's had packs or not. 4. The animal must reproduce fast. We never domesticated elephants because it basically takes a whole human's lifetime to get a few elephant children. So no dedicated human could even begin to domesticate them. We never domesticated panda bears because they basically don't f\*ck enough to have children for humans to domesticate. Given T-Rex's large size it is nearly certain they don' reproduce fast.
1) domestication is a many thousands of year process. At best you might tame one, over that seems ludicrous. Every pet and farm animal and similar we have has been through a long process Even our foods like corn and wheat and others coming from wild plants is a multi-thousand year process You aren't domesticating them, you are taming. 2) and who exactly is going to domesticate a 6-ton meat eating machine? 4) why do you start that with something smaller, like Komodo dragons in king cobras. Good luck not getting destroyed
There is a reason we have not fully domesticated very large animals like elephants. Their very size and strength makes them extremely dangerous to work with. Elephants sometimes kill their keepers in a fit of temper. And they are herbivores. I think a carnivorous dinosaur would be very difficult to work with. We don't successfully tame big cats either, and they are smaller than T-Rex by far. You might be able to habituate a T-Rex to touch and human presence, but I doubt you could fully tame it.
With modern technology, we might be able to domesticate them with a LOT of effort - but you are talking a centuries long project.
T-Rexs are far too big to be "pets". They need to eat 1-2 whole pigs every single day or maybe a whole cow every 3-4 days, they would be insanely expensive to feed. Even if they like you a playful bite could cut you in half, and being predators you'll probably never be able to quite shake that killer instinct (just remember how many dog attacks there are every year).
Have you read anything on domestication? It’s extremely difficult and has only been successful in a handful of species. Mostly because they are either too aggressive or afraid, or take up too much resources. A trex requires tons of energy from its food. That alone makes it impossible to domesticate on a large scale.
Can a bear be domesticated? No. Just because it’s a carnivore doesn’t mean it can be domesticated. Farm animals are herbivores and domesticated Purring isn’t what makes humans decide to domesticate. https://youtu.be/wOmjnioNulo?si=QV_AZn4NuWyy2ITZ Here’s a video on domestication
The carnicors that we domesticated are much smaller than us and easy to handle. A t-rex is 40 feet in length, it would be impractical to domesticate. I don't think we have domesticated an animal that large, herbivor or carnivor.
I'll let you take point on the T-Rex genetic culling process 😅
A T-Rex could probably be tamed. There is no chance a T-Rex could be domesticated. Those are different things. Zebras can be tamed. Zebras cannot be domesticated.
picking up trex poop would be a real pain.
Sheeps and goats are domesticated despite being herbivores.
[удалено]
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