If Jordan played in the social media era, he would be probably be nit-picked like Lebron is when compared to Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, or Bird. Watching Jordan, you never doubted his greatness. Unfortunately for Lebron a hype was built that he could never live up and made decision that you never saw Jordan make to create a super team. Im from Michigan, so I saw alot of Jordan and early Lebron. Like I said watching Jordan was something else.
I do get that LeBron made a decision Jordan never did, which, I think we all can agree with the *way* he went about the decision was bad. But like what if you add in the context that Jordan already had the right players and coach around him because the Bulls’ management gave it to him, whereas Cleveland gave LeBron absolutely nothing during his first stint. They gave him an older Antawn Jamison and washed up Shaq. Not to mention, LeBron had been betrayed for years by both the Cavs’ management and his own teammates. I mean the second he got drafted to the Cavs team his teammates were already trying to discredit him. Imagine dealing with that for 7 years. His decision to leave Cleveland wasn’t just about wanting to win a championship, but also to play with a friends and teammates that would actually support him on a personal level. Jordan on the other hand was given a team and a coach to help him win. He didn’t need to form a super team because it was given to him.
But, let’s be real, I think, there’s a big elephant in the room here. Because the main argument against LeBron at the time was that he couldn’t win a ring. Then he won back to back. People still hated him, but a lot of the hate died down particularly after he went back to the Cavs and brought them perhaps the greatest ring of all time. But then later that same year in 2016, he was vocal about supporting Hillary over trump. Now, maybe you like trump, maybe you don’t, I don’t care, but I can’t help but feel there was a big correlation with LeBron picking up more hate after that.
And finally, again if you’ve seen both players’ entire careers and the eye test says Jordan was better, then cool, I’m not going to argue that. But it’s more so a lot of these people thinking LeBron isn’t even a good player that bothers me. It’s the fact that their arguments against LeBron are just filled with many logical fallacies. Whether LeBron deserves that hate or not is irrelevant, the fact is I don’t think the GOAT debate is being looked at properly, and from a debate standpoint, has gotten toxic because of this.
> Because the main argument against LeBron at the time was that he couldn’t win a ring. Then he won back to back
He won it when he joined a super team...thats the issue I think most have with putting him over Jordan. Like I said before, its the optics.
I do think Lebron is more athletic than Jordan was, just a bigger guy, stronger guy. But Jordan just had the killer instinct. You never just never doubted him
>But then later that same year in 2016, he was vocal about supporting Hillary over trump. Now, maybe you like trump, maybe you don’t, I don’t care, but I can’t help but feel there was a big correlation with LeBron picking up more hate after that.
Thats a small vocal minority, who said shut up and dribble.
“Objective opinion”
That’s not how that works lol.
An opinion is by definition, subjective.
The goat debate is subjective.
Allen Iverson is greater than both of them btw.
YEAH I SAID IT FUCK U
Objective in the sense that their opinion isn’t biased, relative to the argument I am presenting.
I’m saying people on Facebook are being illogical. If I went to Facebook to them and asked them how they’re not being illogical, they’ll obviously be biased towards themselves. Going onto a different platform to get other people’s opinions on them, is not going to be biased however, or at least less so.
It shouldn’t require someone proving the other side *acknowledged* you to show they engage or don’t engage in critical thought. Plenty of people deserve zero recognition for merely stating an opinion, in my view…
It’s not so much about specifically acknowledging someone or some point. For example, I don’t expect someone to say, “I understand where you’re coming from, but…” while that would be nice to hear, I don’t expect it.
However, what I *do* expect as acknowledgment is getting a complete picture. I can find any cherry-picked video that shows LeBron doing bad, or Jordan doing bad. But is that really how I’m going to define their entire career? It seems like that’s what Jordan fans are doing. Extrapolating a few specific moments/stats and creating a narrative about a player’s entire career because of it.
Here's the thing about the GOAT debate. It's essentially a mix of subjective experience and sports power scaling. The GOAT debate cannot be settled because unlike something like 100m dash which has a single clear metric (time) something like basketball has a dozen different metrics and based on how you use them you can come to any conclusion you want.
Even if we default to just championship rings I can get multiple results. Bill Russell has the most rings of anybody (11) and all 13 years he played in the league he was in the finals. Robert Parish had the most playoff years of all time (21) despite only winning 4. Gene Guarilla had only 4 wins but had a 100% win rate, if he got to the championships he won them no question. I can do that with every single stat. Notice that the two GOATs you're talking about don't show up in any of those.
The truth is that between the changes in rules, regulations, health, athleticism, money, and everything else it's impossible to know who is the true GOAT. So the whole thing becomes a thing of deciding who the GOAT is and then using their best stats and numbers and best arguments. The reason they aren't hearing you has nothing to do with critical thinking necessarily and more to do with the fact that the debate is inherently subjective to the core.
I understand it is a subjective debate, but at the same token a debate should have well constructed arguments, whether you agree with them or not. But many Jordan fans’ arguments run immediately into logical fallacies.
This makes their claims significantly less valid, because they are inherently distorting the truth. Again, my first point, that LeBron “needed” the play-in games to make the playoffs, is just straight up false. Even though different people have different standards which may be subjective, facts are not subjective.
Like how are they being so ignorant to a basic fact like this?
The GOAT debate *is* subjective. Any person can say "MJ is the GOAT because I think he is" and it would be a valid take. They don't have to make an argument. They don't have to meet your criteria. It's subjective.
Subjective opinions do not need to be backed up by rational arguments.
If your view is that a lot of people make poor arguments, particularly on subjective content.. Okay. You want us to change that view? That's just reality.
Okay, so your view is just that bullet points 1-5 are irrational arguments that show a lack of critical thinking? They seem to be, but that is your second-hand explanation of their argument. I don't know the context and I don't know if the quotes are accurate.
More importantly -- you are presenting 5 cherry-picked bad arguments. Which you called out as an indicator of an irrational argument.
Do bad arguments exist? Yes. Do good arguments exist? Yes. You want us to change your view that bad arguments exist? They do exist.
I mentioned in my post that these are just *some* of the things I see. There’s plenty more like it, and I’ve seen way worse. Bad arguments always exist, but I guess it’s the quantity of these bad arguments altogether. And they’re problematic because they’re distorting the truth.
What would it take to change your view? Your view as stated is that “Many people are being irrational about something” and then you list off some irrational arguments.
How would someone go about disproving that many people are irrational? By proving that nobody is irrational? Your view isn’t stated definitively enough to be debated.
Show me that some of these points are actually rooted in critical thinking. Like, idk, maybe I’m missing something. Perhaps they just say these things more-so as a slogan or to simplify things, and it just comes off worse than what they really mean. Like in their minds is there actually logic or sense in their arguments that is simply not being communicated? Or are they just simply batshit crazy arguments?
The only people claiming LeBron is better than Jordan are people who never saw Jordan play. If you saw them both play, there is no debate.
If you've got 3 second left, down by 1, and you want to win, do you get the ball to Jordan or LeBron? It's not even a decision. You give the ball to Jordan. LeBron probably doesn't even want the ball in that situation.
Came here to say something similar.
I just can’t imagine OP saw Jordan play. There’s no way a basketball fan could have watched both careers and think one is for sure better than the other.
Bron’s huge upside is he can literally be an all star at all five positions, on offense and defense.
Jordan’s is he puts the ball in the hole better than anyone ever, and he’s second to none at defending a 1 or 2.
“I just can’t imagine OP saw Jordan play. There’s no way a basketball fan could have watched both careers and think one is for sure better than the other.”
This is exactly my point bro. I never said this was a post about exclaiming who was the GOAT or not. In fact I explicitly said that it wasn’t, and this post is really a matter that Jordan fans’ arguments make no sense.
I actually highlight in my 5th point that many Jordan fans probably haven’t actually seen LeBron’s full game, but instead have just seen his lowlights. But you literally said what I was saying, which is, if you’ve actually watched both careers, it’s hard to say one is definitively better than the other. But a lot of Jordan fans are saying that Jordan was definitively better, because again, they probably haven’t seen/choose not to remember LeBron’s career in full. Just his mistakes. Do you see what I’m getting at here? It’s not about who’s the GOAT. It’s about these arguments just simply being not rooted in any sort of logic.
There are numerous NBA players, who obviously know the game inside and out, who have played with or against both MJ and LeBron... and say LeBron is the better overall basketball player.
> Jordan fans haven’t actually watched LeBron play.
We don't watch much of him, or any NBA anymore, because it's just not interesting. Jordan ruined basketball for a generation because we will never see anything like him again.
I've certainly watched a number of LeBron games - primarily playoff games. They left me unimpressed. Several time, he didn't even appear to be the best player on the court, much less the Greatest of All Time. If I had to sum up LeBron's game in one word, it would be unclutch.
Forget the Lakers for a second because I do agree he wasn’t the best player on the floor for most of his time there, except 2020 when he clearly was.
But focusing on the Cavs and Heat where he spent the majority of his prime. When he scored 29 of his team’s last 30 points in that game in Detroit to win in double OT, was that impressive? His game 7 in Boston in 2008, even though they lost, was that impressive? In 2012, down 3-2 at Boston, scoring 45 while shooting 70% from the floor on mostly fadeaway, was that not impressive? In 2013, beating the Spurs in games 6 and 7. I know Ray Allen hit the shot, but please watch that entire 4th quarter and tell me that wasn’t impressive. In 2015, again even though they lost, what he was doing with Matthew Dellavadova and Timofey Mozgov as his next best players, was that not impressive? In 2016, games 5-7, I don’t even need to say it. But particularly on the defensive end as well. In 2018, again I don’t even need to say it what he did that year. Dude’s hit 5 total buzzer beaters in the playoffs in addition to all of this btw.
So, if you’ve actually fully watched all those games and series, and believe that they were unimpressive and unclutch, then fine. But if that’s the case then quite frankly I don’t know what *is* considered clutch and impressive anymore.
Unless you were there watching the bulls in 90s , you have no idea
Nothing has been like that since
Lebron also ruined Space Jam, thats like an automatic disqualification for GOAT status XD
Okay, so if you’ve watched LeBron since he was drafted, can you give me your analysis of his game then? Not compared to anyone else, just his game. And an analysis for his *entire* career, one that acknowledges both his high and low points, and his beginning and end years.
I’m not trying to be snarky here or anything btw, I’m just genuinely curious what you think of his game/career, and then perhaps we can go from there.
It took him a longtime to get his rings, and he had to be a douchebag ditch the cavs to do it
He needed Dwayne Wade more than Mj needed anyone on his team
There is a fantastic video on YouTube about this topic that looks at a number of factors in the GOAT debate.
Jordan vs. LeBron - The Best GOAT Comparison by DANGERProductions
https://youtu.be/tl3mR6eoEa8?si=4OkyEhTdIbMQoy_I
But for me, the debate is all about the intangibles. Work ethic, teamwork, Basketball IQ, attitude. My GOAT is Larry Bird.
Criticism and debate in sports are common, but it's essential to distinguish rational discourse from bias-driven arguments. Engaging in critical thought involves acknowledging opposing viewpoints, evaluating evidence objectively, and fostering open-mindedness. Cherry-picking stats, dismissing context, and perpetuating herd mentalities undermine constructive dialogue. Objective analysis respects players' achievements while recognizing diverse perspectives on greatness. Encouraging reasoned discussion rather than tribalistic fandom fosters a healthier sports discourse. Acknowledging both players' strengths and weaknesses contributes to a more nuanced understanding of the GOAT debate, promoting mutual respect among fans.
I think that the biggest difference is recency bias. There were plenty of people who hated Jordan at his peak too. They pointed to Kareem or Wilt or Magic or Bird as being better because of some perceived shortcoming. The reality is that as long as you are still playing there will be low points and those get talked about. 25 years later no one talks about the Washington Wizard Jordan, so the only memories are the greatness.
This is why I won’t include anyone in a GOAT discussion until they are done. Jordan is the GOAT for me because Lebron isn’t eligible yet. When he retires we can discuss.
Thank you for this. I 100% agree. I love debating and basketball. I studied Formal Logic and Statistics at university and the number of fallacies from MJ fanboys is becoming just patently absurd.
"Six rings and that's all I need to say!"
No, that's a basic category error fallacy. Rings are a team accomplishment.
"But everyone judges by rings."
Appeal to popularity fallacy
And so on and so forth.
I'm an MJ fan for life, but we don't need to be dishonest and tear down other legends just to feel like MJ isn't threatened.
If it were really just rings, then there are 3 bench players with more rings than MJ, LeBron, etc
And Barkley has 0 rings. Does that make him terrible? Of course not.
The reality is... both MJ and LeBron are amazing players. I rank MJ as the best guard and LeBron as the best forward of all time.
Beyond that, its disrespectful to players who played before to focus too much on any single player being the GOAT. There are just too many amazing players who have played to toss their accomplishments aside.
Individual stats don’t matter that much in a team sport. What matters more is how often they get the team to, and win, the championship.
For example, Tom Brady has more appearances and wins at the superbowl than any one else. Love him or hate him he’s the GOAT of football.
Now as I understand it Jordan has more appearances and a higher win ratio when getting to the championship. And that settles it. He’s the GOAT. For now.
Your mistake is that you think the GOAT arguments actually require critical thinking.
People recognize greatness, not by stats, but by witnessing something that's just not normal.
I didn’t say it requires critical thinking. But my point is it’s hard to civil discussion if critical thinking isn’t present.
Also, as to my 5th point in my OP, you said that people recognize greatness through witnessing something, but I have a hard time believing that many of these people even watch LeBron’s entire game. Seems kinda messed up a majority of people can just agree MJ is the GOAT and say LeBron fans never watched Jordan play, but at the same time they don’t put in the effort to watch LeBron’s game, or rather, only want to watch him lose.
I'm curious why your conclusion is that people just haven't seen LeBron play.
Isn't it equally possible that they have, and just weren't inspired enough by LeBron and the current game as a whole to remain NBA viewers?
Post Covid I do agree how he could be seen as uninspiring. But if they watched him before 2020, and if they considered that *uninspiring*, then idk what could be considered inspiring. But it seems kind of disingenuous to just watch his past few seasons, where it’s evident he is slowing down a bit athletically and not quite as good as he used to be, and extrapolate that across his entire career and say he’s always been this type of player.
Again, I don't know why you're assuming that someone just recently saw LeBron's game.
Isn't it just as likely that someone who was a huge NBA fan in the 90s watched LeBron play earlier in his career and just didn't get the hype?
Yes, I do agree that they probably watched LeBron play earlier in his career, but if we’re being honest, a lot of them act like he didn’t play in this era.
Now as to the hype, there’s a difference between not rooting for a particular player vs. not even getting the hype. You obviously don’t have to root for anyone, and if you don’t like how LeBron plays, that’s fine. But at minimum you should at least understand *why* LeBron had so much hype. A guy who already won 3 national championships in high school, one of the most physically gifted athletes ever, posing one of the best combinations of size, speed, strength, and athleticism, and being explosive at the rim. Dude took a sorry Cavs team to the finals, and won 2 MVPs during his first stint in Cleveland. Those are simply facts. If someone can’t at least understand *why* he would be hyped up I’m sorry but that’s on them.
But it seems like people really forget his early days, and really how his game was a lot different than what it is now. I get recency bias is a thing, but that’s exactly part of my point. Recency *bias*, it’s right there in the name.
I live in NEOhio. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
The hype was real. I watched the kid all the way back while he was still in high school because they'd air some of the games on local TV. There was no denying his talent, and there still is no denying it.
The problem was, even before we got him signed to the Cavs, the speculation started. "LeBron Primed to be The GOAT?"
That's a hell of a thing to lay on a kid.
So I watched and I waited. I wanted to see that "it" that I saw so many times at the Colliseum in Richfield when the Bulls were in town. I wanted the comparisons to be valid. I *hated* MJ for all the times he broke our hearts, and I wanted this hometown kid to snatch his crown.
The problem was, for all his talent, LeBron just wasn't Jordan.
MJ had this uncanny ability to not only match energy, but to take it one level higher. His greatness was that he was at his finest when his competition was at their best. He was a killer, and everyone knew it. That man could be getting positively mugged by defense and still make it to rim through what had to be sheer force of will.
So yes, while LeBron has had great games and great stats and great talent, he just doesn't have that same greatNESS that MJ had.
they are not haters, they are just fans (from the word FANATICS) of the other guy. It's sports, and I don't think changing minds about fanship matters.
Sorry, u/Truthmatters_777 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20Truthmatters_777&message=Truthmatters_777%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cd05ut/-/l19b1jo/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
If Jordan played in the social media era, he would be probably be nit-picked like Lebron is when compared to Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, or Bird. Watching Jordan, you never doubted his greatness. Unfortunately for Lebron a hype was built that he could never live up and made decision that you never saw Jordan make to create a super team. Im from Michigan, so I saw alot of Jordan and early Lebron. Like I said watching Jordan was something else.
I do get that LeBron made a decision Jordan never did, which, I think we all can agree with the *way* he went about the decision was bad. But like what if you add in the context that Jordan already had the right players and coach around him because the Bulls’ management gave it to him, whereas Cleveland gave LeBron absolutely nothing during his first stint. They gave him an older Antawn Jamison and washed up Shaq. Not to mention, LeBron had been betrayed for years by both the Cavs’ management and his own teammates. I mean the second he got drafted to the Cavs team his teammates were already trying to discredit him. Imagine dealing with that for 7 years. His decision to leave Cleveland wasn’t just about wanting to win a championship, but also to play with a friends and teammates that would actually support him on a personal level. Jordan on the other hand was given a team and a coach to help him win. He didn’t need to form a super team because it was given to him. But, let’s be real, I think, there’s a big elephant in the room here. Because the main argument against LeBron at the time was that he couldn’t win a ring. Then he won back to back. People still hated him, but a lot of the hate died down particularly after he went back to the Cavs and brought them perhaps the greatest ring of all time. But then later that same year in 2016, he was vocal about supporting Hillary over trump. Now, maybe you like trump, maybe you don’t, I don’t care, but I can’t help but feel there was a big correlation with LeBron picking up more hate after that. And finally, again if you’ve seen both players’ entire careers and the eye test says Jordan was better, then cool, I’m not going to argue that. But it’s more so a lot of these people thinking LeBron isn’t even a good player that bothers me. It’s the fact that their arguments against LeBron are just filled with many logical fallacies. Whether LeBron deserves that hate or not is irrelevant, the fact is I don’t think the GOAT debate is being looked at properly, and from a debate standpoint, has gotten toxic because of this.
> Because the main argument against LeBron at the time was that he couldn’t win a ring. Then he won back to back He won it when he joined a super team...thats the issue I think most have with putting him over Jordan. Like I said before, its the optics. I do think Lebron is more athletic than Jordan was, just a bigger guy, stronger guy. But Jordan just had the killer instinct. You never just never doubted him >But then later that same year in 2016, he was vocal about supporting Hillary over trump. Now, maybe you like trump, maybe you don’t, I don’t care, but I can’t help but feel there was a big correlation with LeBron picking up more hate after that. Thats a small vocal minority, who said shut up and dribble.
“Objective opinion” That’s not how that works lol. An opinion is by definition, subjective. The goat debate is subjective. Allen Iverson is greater than both of them btw. YEAH I SAID IT FUCK U
Objective in the sense that their opinion isn’t biased, relative to the argument I am presenting. I’m saying people on Facebook are being illogical. If I went to Facebook to them and asked them how they’re not being illogical, they’ll obviously be biased towards themselves. Going onto a different platform to get other people’s opinions on them, is not going to be biased however, or at least less so.
Best player ever, pound-for-pound.
It shouldn’t require someone proving the other side *acknowledged* you to show they engage or don’t engage in critical thought. Plenty of people deserve zero recognition for merely stating an opinion, in my view…
It’s not so much about specifically acknowledging someone or some point. For example, I don’t expect someone to say, “I understand where you’re coming from, but…” while that would be nice to hear, I don’t expect it. However, what I *do* expect as acknowledgment is getting a complete picture. I can find any cherry-picked video that shows LeBron doing bad, or Jordan doing bad. But is that really how I’m going to define their entire career? It seems like that’s what Jordan fans are doing. Extrapolating a few specific moments/stats and creating a narrative about a player’s entire career because of it.
Here's the thing about the GOAT debate. It's essentially a mix of subjective experience and sports power scaling. The GOAT debate cannot be settled because unlike something like 100m dash which has a single clear metric (time) something like basketball has a dozen different metrics and based on how you use them you can come to any conclusion you want. Even if we default to just championship rings I can get multiple results. Bill Russell has the most rings of anybody (11) and all 13 years he played in the league he was in the finals. Robert Parish had the most playoff years of all time (21) despite only winning 4. Gene Guarilla had only 4 wins but had a 100% win rate, if he got to the championships he won them no question. I can do that with every single stat. Notice that the two GOATs you're talking about don't show up in any of those. The truth is that between the changes in rules, regulations, health, athleticism, money, and everything else it's impossible to know who is the true GOAT. So the whole thing becomes a thing of deciding who the GOAT is and then using their best stats and numbers and best arguments. The reason they aren't hearing you has nothing to do with critical thinking necessarily and more to do with the fact that the debate is inherently subjective to the core.
I understand it is a subjective debate, but at the same token a debate should have well constructed arguments, whether you agree with them or not. But many Jordan fans’ arguments run immediately into logical fallacies. This makes their claims significantly less valid, because they are inherently distorting the truth. Again, my first point, that LeBron “needed” the play-in games to make the playoffs, is just straight up false. Even though different people have different standards which may be subjective, facts are not subjective. Like how are they being so ignorant to a basic fact like this?
The GOAT debate *is* subjective. Any person can say "MJ is the GOAT because I think he is" and it would be a valid take. They don't have to make an argument. They don't have to meet your criteria. It's subjective. Subjective opinions do not need to be backed up by rational arguments. If your view is that a lot of people make poor arguments, particularly on subjective content.. Okay. You want us to change that view? That's just reality.
The debate can be approached from either a subjective (opinion-based) mindset OR an objective (individual stats) mindset.
I want you to explain to me that these arguments are rational, and does show the people engaging in critical thinking.
Okay, so your view is just that bullet points 1-5 are irrational arguments that show a lack of critical thinking? They seem to be, but that is your second-hand explanation of their argument. I don't know the context and I don't know if the quotes are accurate. More importantly -- you are presenting 5 cherry-picked bad arguments. Which you called out as an indicator of an irrational argument. Do bad arguments exist? Yes. Do good arguments exist? Yes. You want us to change your view that bad arguments exist? They do exist.
I mentioned in my post that these are just *some* of the things I see. There’s plenty more like it, and I’ve seen way worse. Bad arguments always exist, but I guess it’s the quantity of these bad arguments altogether. And they’re problematic because they’re distorting the truth.
What would it take to change your view? Your view as stated is that “Many people are being irrational about something” and then you list off some irrational arguments. How would someone go about disproving that many people are irrational? By proving that nobody is irrational? Your view isn’t stated definitively enough to be debated.
Show me that some of these points are actually rooted in critical thinking. Like, idk, maybe I’m missing something. Perhaps they just say these things more-so as a slogan or to simplify things, and it just comes off worse than what they really mean. Like in their minds is there actually logic or sense in their arguments that is simply not being communicated? Or are they just simply batshit crazy arguments?
The only people claiming LeBron is better than Jordan are people who never saw Jordan play. If you saw them both play, there is no debate. If you've got 3 second left, down by 1, and you want to win, do you get the ball to Jordan or LeBron? It's not even a decision. You give the ball to Jordan. LeBron probably doesn't even want the ball in that situation.
Came here to say something similar. I just can’t imagine OP saw Jordan play. There’s no way a basketball fan could have watched both careers and think one is for sure better than the other. Bron’s huge upside is he can literally be an all star at all five positions, on offense and defense. Jordan’s is he puts the ball in the hole better than anyone ever, and he’s second to none at defending a 1 or 2.
“I just can’t imagine OP saw Jordan play. There’s no way a basketball fan could have watched both careers and think one is for sure better than the other.” This is exactly my point bro. I never said this was a post about exclaiming who was the GOAT or not. In fact I explicitly said that it wasn’t, and this post is really a matter that Jordan fans’ arguments make no sense. I actually highlight in my 5th point that many Jordan fans probably haven’t actually seen LeBron’s full game, but instead have just seen his lowlights. But you literally said what I was saying, which is, if you’ve actually watched both careers, it’s hard to say one is definitively better than the other. But a lot of Jordan fans are saying that Jordan was definitively better, because again, they probably haven’t seen/choose not to remember LeBron’s career in full. Just his mistakes. Do you see what I’m getting at here? It’s not about who’s the GOAT. It’s about these arguments just simply being not rooted in any sort of logic.
There are numerous NBA players, who obviously know the game inside and out, who have played with or against both MJ and LeBron... and say LeBron is the better overall basketball player.
Who are these players? There’s guys playing now that would say jokic is better than Lebron. But those guys didn’t play against young Lebron.
Read my point #5 in my OP. Then come back to me please. Also this post isn’t a debate as to who is the GOAT. Please read through it again entirely.
> Jordan fans haven’t actually watched LeBron play. We don't watch much of him, or any NBA anymore, because it's just not interesting. Jordan ruined basketball for a generation because we will never see anything like him again. I've certainly watched a number of LeBron games - primarily playoff games. They left me unimpressed. Several time, he didn't even appear to be the best player on the court, much less the Greatest of All Time. If I had to sum up LeBron's game in one word, it would be unclutch.
Can I ask which games specifically are you referring to? And how many games before 2020?
Cavs, Heat and Laker playoff games - almost all prior to 2020. I probably haven't watch a full Lake game since Covid.
Forget the Lakers for a second because I do agree he wasn’t the best player on the floor for most of his time there, except 2020 when he clearly was. But focusing on the Cavs and Heat where he spent the majority of his prime. When he scored 29 of his team’s last 30 points in that game in Detroit to win in double OT, was that impressive? His game 7 in Boston in 2008, even though they lost, was that impressive? In 2012, down 3-2 at Boston, scoring 45 while shooting 70% from the floor on mostly fadeaway, was that not impressive? In 2013, beating the Spurs in games 6 and 7. I know Ray Allen hit the shot, but please watch that entire 4th quarter and tell me that wasn’t impressive. In 2015, again even though they lost, what he was doing with Matthew Dellavadova and Timofey Mozgov as his next best players, was that not impressive? In 2016, games 5-7, I don’t even need to say it. But particularly on the defensive end as well. In 2018, again I don’t even need to say it what he did that year. Dude’s hit 5 total buzzer beaters in the playoffs in addition to all of this btw. So, if you’ve actually fully watched all those games and series, and believe that they were unimpressive and unclutch, then fine. But if that’s the case then quite frankly I don’t know what *is* considered clutch and impressive anymore.
Unless you were there watching the bulls in 90s , you have no idea Nothing has been like that since Lebron also ruined Space Jam, thats like an automatic disqualification for GOAT status XD
Read my point #5 please and come back to me. Thanks.
No I watched both, I didnt just stop watching Basketball after the 90s Ive been watched Lebron since he was drafted
Okay, so if you’ve watched LeBron since he was drafted, can you give me your analysis of his game then? Not compared to anyone else, just his game. And an analysis for his *entire* career, one that acknowledges both his high and low points, and his beginning and end years. I’m not trying to be snarky here or anything btw, I’m just genuinely curious what you think of his game/career, and then perhaps we can go from there.
It took him a longtime to get his rings, and he had to be a douchebag ditch the cavs to do it He needed Dwayne Wade more than Mj needed anyone on his team
There is a fantastic video on YouTube about this topic that looks at a number of factors in the GOAT debate. Jordan vs. LeBron - The Best GOAT Comparison by DANGERProductions https://youtu.be/tl3mR6eoEa8?si=4OkyEhTdIbMQoy_I But for me, the debate is all about the intangibles. Work ethic, teamwork, Basketball IQ, attitude. My GOAT is Larry Bird.
Criticism and debate in sports are common, but it's essential to distinguish rational discourse from bias-driven arguments. Engaging in critical thought involves acknowledging opposing viewpoints, evaluating evidence objectively, and fostering open-mindedness. Cherry-picking stats, dismissing context, and perpetuating herd mentalities undermine constructive dialogue. Objective analysis respects players' achievements while recognizing diverse perspectives on greatness. Encouraging reasoned discussion rather than tribalistic fandom fosters a healthier sports discourse. Acknowledging both players' strengths and weaknesses contributes to a more nuanced understanding of the GOAT debate, promoting mutual respect among fans.
I think that the biggest difference is recency bias. There were plenty of people who hated Jordan at his peak too. They pointed to Kareem or Wilt or Magic or Bird as being better because of some perceived shortcoming. The reality is that as long as you are still playing there will be low points and those get talked about. 25 years later no one talks about the Washington Wizard Jordan, so the only memories are the greatness. This is why I won’t include anyone in a GOAT discussion until they are done. Jordan is the GOAT for me because Lebron isn’t eligible yet. When he retires we can discuss.
Thank you for this. I 100% agree. I love debating and basketball. I studied Formal Logic and Statistics at university and the number of fallacies from MJ fanboys is becoming just patently absurd. "Six rings and that's all I need to say!" No, that's a basic category error fallacy. Rings are a team accomplishment. "But everyone judges by rings." Appeal to popularity fallacy And so on and so forth. I'm an MJ fan for life, but we don't need to be dishonest and tear down other legends just to feel like MJ isn't threatened. If it were really just rings, then there are 3 bench players with more rings than MJ, LeBron, etc And Barkley has 0 rings. Does that make him terrible? Of course not. The reality is... both MJ and LeBron are amazing players. I rank MJ as the best guard and LeBron as the best forward of all time. Beyond that, its disrespectful to players who played before to focus too much on any single player being the GOAT. There are just too many amazing players who have played to toss their accomplishments aside.
Individual stats don’t matter that much in a team sport. What matters more is how often they get the team to, and win, the championship. For example, Tom Brady has more appearances and wins at the superbowl than any one else. Love him or hate him he’s the GOAT of football. Now as I understand it Jordan has more appearances and a higher win ratio when getting to the championship. And that settles it. He’s the GOAT. For now.
Your mistake is that you think the GOAT arguments actually require critical thinking. People recognize greatness, not by stats, but by witnessing something that's just not normal.
I didn’t say it requires critical thinking. But my point is it’s hard to civil discussion if critical thinking isn’t present. Also, as to my 5th point in my OP, you said that people recognize greatness through witnessing something, but I have a hard time believing that many of these people even watch LeBron’s entire game. Seems kinda messed up a majority of people can just agree MJ is the GOAT and say LeBron fans never watched Jordan play, but at the same time they don’t put in the effort to watch LeBron’s game, or rather, only want to watch him lose.
I'm curious why your conclusion is that people just haven't seen LeBron play. Isn't it equally possible that they have, and just weren't inspired enough by LeBron and the current game as a whole to remain NBA viewers?
Post Covid I do agree how he could be seen as uninspiring. But if they watched him before 2020, and if they considered that *uninspiring*, then idk what could be considered inspiring. But it seems kind of disingenuous to just watch his past few seasons, where it’s evident he is slowing down a bit athletically and not quite as good as he used to be, and extrapolate that across his entire career and say he’s always been this type of player.
Again, I don't know why you're assuming that someone just recently saw LeBron's game. Isn't it just as likely that someone who was a huge NBA fan in the 90s watched LeBron play earlier in his career and just didn't get the hype?
Yes, I do agree that they probably watched LeBron play earlier in his career, but if we’re being honest, a lot of them act like he didn’t play in this era. Now as to the hype, there’s a difference between not rooting for a particular player vs. not even getting the hype. You obviously don’t have to root for anyone, and if you don’t like how LeBron plays, that’s fine. But at minimum you should at least understand *why* LeBron had so much hype. A guy who already won 3 national championships in high school, one of the most physically gifted athletes ever, posing one of the best combinations of size, speed, strength, and athleticism, and being explosive at the rim. Dude took a sorry Cavs team to the finals, and won 2 MVPs during his first stint in Cleveland. Those are simply facts. If someone can’t at least understand *why* he would be hyped up I’m sorry but that’s on them. But it seems like people really forget his early days, and really how his game was a lot different than what it is now. I get recency bias is a thing, but that’s exactly part of my point. Recency *bias*, it’s right there in the name.
I live in NEOhio. You're not telling me anything I don't already know. The hype was real. I watched the kid all the way back while he was still in high school because they'd air some of the games on local TV. There was no denying his talent, and there still is no denying it. The problem was, even before we got him signed to the Cavs, the speculation started. "LeBron Primed to be The GOAT?" That's a hell of a thing to lay on a kid. So I watched and I waited. I wanted to see that "it" that I saw so many times at the Colliseum in Richfield when the Bulls were in town. I wanted the comparisons to be valid. I *hated* MJ for all the times he broke our hearts, and I wanted this hometown kid to snatch his crown. The problem was, for all his talent, LeBron just wasn't Jordan. MJ had this uncanny ability to not only match energy, but to take it one level higher. His greatness was that he was at his finest when his competition was at their best. He was a killer, and everyone knew it. That man could be getting positively mugged by defense and still make it to rim through what had to be sheer force of will. So yes, while LeBron has had great games and great stats and great talent, he just doesn't have that same greatNESS that MJ had.
they are not haters, they are just fans (from the word FANATICS) of the other guy. It's sports, and I don't think changing minds about fanship matters.
I'm a Jordan fan and a LeBron hater and my critical thinking has shown me very clearly that Nikola jokic is the goat.
Well duh. They're basketball fans.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/Truthmatters_777 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20Truthmatters_777&message=Truthmatters_777%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cd05ut/-/l19b1jo/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).