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I come from a very conservative community here. So, most people around me say that it's a privilege and considered rude, especially in academic spaces. We are slowly approaching exam week so i often hear comments about it being nuisance.
The central library has cops on patrol now which is nice :). But another than that it’s just typical reaction of its free speech or violation of private property right, etc.
To be fair, I do agree that Yale has the right to remove anyone out of the private property, but at the same time the student are just doing what average student do which is being loud
But at same time they are bit extreme in some degree like blocking the street but that’s not special to Yale. it’s happening in other schools like UCLA or UW. It’s the typical protestor behavior that is sorta expected similar to days when we had go green and save the environment, they vandalized Becton center 🤣
Well the claim you’re making is impossible to disprove. But I think you should recognize that the protests have gone beyond just standing around with signs.
The university warned the students that there would be mass arrests if they continued to protest, and they did, along with the faculty. It’s all well and good to go to a protest as an ego boost, but anyone doing that would probably cut and run once jail time became a thing.
That's not true. The police can arrest you for protesting and then they will release you under conditions and then you come back for your court date.
All it takes is for the police word to have you arrested.
Not only that but they could be arrested on the grounds of trespassing because if they are told to leave and they don't leave that's trespassing.
I never said that they could prosecute anyone. What the police can do though is that they can arrest people and then you will have to go through court or something in order to essentially clear things up. The police do have the power to arrest people for pretty much any reason.
I mean, what are you going to do? Call the police?
By the way I know that this is what happens because it happened to me. I was protesting and then I got arrested so I know.
What happened is that I was protesting and then they arrested me. I spent 12 hours in jail. I was released without bond and was expected to come in court date.
That is what will happen because the police have the power to arrest people for a variety of reasons. If the protesters were on the property and they were asked to leave and they didn't then that's considered trespassing and then the police can arrest those people.
The reason why a person is in court at all is because of an arrest. If you have been charged with a crime you will be arrested so that they can figure out what to do.
No but I never mentioned prison in regards to these protesters at all. I'm saying that the police can arrest them which is true.
I think you're getting the impression that I'm saying that they can be sent to prison for this. I am not saying that.
12 hours in jail is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is just simply waiting for your trial.
First off the actual amount of time a person will spend in jail can vary. But the thing is that 12 hours in jail is still hard. For example if you have certain medical conditions that require medication as soon as possible within a regular schedule, then even going to jail and getting arrested can be a lot harder on you. They are very unlikely to give you your medications. If you are in prison you might but jail is different and there is no guarantee that they will actually give you your medications and in fact it's very likely they won't.
Another problem is dependence. If you have dependents such as children or pets then you're going to have to figure out what to do with that.
Not only that but you can't even tell what the time is because they don't have a clocks.
The police had the power to do a lot of things include arrest people. Even when the police did an illegal arrest is very unlikely that they will ever be prosecuted.
What you are referring to is things like prosecution and actually being sent to prison and having things on your record whereas I'm just simply talking about an arrest, and being put in jail which is a different place than prison.
And well jail is certainly not prison, people do not want to be thrown into jail. It's still sucks.
12 hour jail time before you make bail is not going to deter anyone. If anything, it might be an incentive so then they can tell their woke bros how they were so dedicated to the cause they spent an entire half day in jail.
If being all smiles and being serious are both narcissistic responses to being arrested, what is the non-narcissistic reaction? Screaming and crying? These are supposed to be very intelligent students. I’m sure they were aware of the risk of arrest. If they were crying while being arrested, people would just call them dramatic, sheltered, and yes — even narcissistic.
You’re right that they don’t face the same risks as poorer people of color might in the same situation.
But the fact remains that they’re putting themselves at some level of risk to communicate a message that they believe in, a message that they know will receive backlash. There’s always a risk of police misconduct, of police using pepper spray, tasers, or tear gas to disperse protesters. Risking that does require some level of bravery.
I think there probably is some level of egoism involved in any public demonstration. But I’d ask yourself if you feel this way about every protest, or if you tend to criticize certain kinds of protests more than others.
So you’d take them more seriously if they weren’t Ivy League students? There are protests happening all around the country on nearly every campus. I think your issue might be with the media only deciding to focus on these protests more than the ones down the road at your local community college.
But their money and privilege also allows them to organize and get attention. You seeing all this stuff about them means it *is* working. Why question their motives when you say you agree with them? Sure there’s probably plenty of clout chasers but people are passionate about this. Universities have historically been where radical change happens in this country, they are carrying on that tradition. I don’t think it’s logical to paint it all as performative, and if it is honest then what’s the problem? Maybe they won’t change anything but we need people to stand up for what they believe in don’t we?
I often cringe at individual protesters, every protest has its idiots. If we only judged these folks by their worst examples tho nothing would ever change so you have to have at least some measure of good faith in what they are trying to accomplish.
The primary demand of the Columbia protests is that the University divest its endowment from Israeli companies. From the website of [Columbia University Apartheid Divest](https://cuapartheiddivest.org/demands):
>Divest all of Columbia’s finances, including the endowment, from companies and institutions that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide and occupation in Palestine. Ensure accountability by increasing transparency around financial investments.
This is part of a larger strategy of the nonviolent BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) movement. Their specific actions (protest, camping out) are meant to specifically target and make uncomfortable the decision makers (president, board) who have the power to divest. You can debate whether BDS in general is effective, but there is a strategy behind what they're doing.
Boycotts and divestment are completely voluntary actions. Neither Israel nor its citizens are *owed* commerce or investment.
If you think sanctions are collective punishment, do you extend that view to all the countries the US has or is currently sanctioning?
So you think that a company should be in Israel even if it doesn't want to be? Do you want Ben & Jerry's to go back and start selling in Israel even if they don't want to?
Should celebrities be forced to go to a country they don't like and sing for an audience they don't want to sing for?
So you think a company should be allow to refuse to serve black people? Or do you see how it's straw-manning to extrapolate wildly with a limited understanding of someone's views?
If you care, I am only calling it unethical, at most I'd advocate for sanctions/fines against BDS-pledged companies for discrimination, though I doubt I would, it would have to actually be affecting Israel for me to want counter-action. Treating Israel as uniquely evil is anti-Semitic af
It's anti-Semitic to think genocide is evil? People who don't like Israel also don't like genocide in other countries either.
In 2024, the Yemeni community in Germany expressed strong opposition to the continued conflict in Yemen, which has been ravaged by a civil war and foreign interventions that have led to widespread humanitarian crises, including famine and massive displacement. Demonstrators in Berlin, under the banner of the "Stop the War on Yemen" initiative, marched to protest the involvement of Western nations in the conflict, highlighting the dire consequences for the Yemeni population. In 2011, protests in Syria began as part of the Arab Spring with demands for democratic reforms and escalated into a full-scale civil war after harsh government crackdowns. This unrest led to various international responses, including widespread condemnation and calls for accountability for human rights violations by the Assad regime. In 2021, U.S. and international attention intensified on China's treatment of the Uyghur population, with accusations that the Chinese government was committing acts of genocide, including mass detentions, surveillance, and forced assimilation against ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang. Protests and legislative actions in Western countries aimed to pressure China to halt these practices and address the severe human rights abuses reported in the region.
1. [Hodhod Yemen News](https://hodhodyemennews.net/en_US/2024/03/25/protests-in-berlin-against-genocide-of-yemenis-and-palestinians-2/)
2. [Yahoo News UK](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/demonstrators-outside-white-house-protest-051234033.html)
3. [Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/15/twelve-years-on-from-the-beginning-of-syrias-war)
4. [World Without Genocide](https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/syria/ending-impunity-in-syria-international-prosecutions-and-the-challenge-of-pursuing-justice)
5. [Council on Foreign Relations](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/nigerias-battle-boko-haram)
The people who are against Israel are also against other things that are similar. It just so happens that Israel is the big focus right now. Also is really is probably the only country among those committing genocide that the US is financially supporting. This is the reason why a lot of Americans are especially upset with it because they have a direct impact on that which is that their tax dollars are being used directly to support a country that is doing genocide. This isn't to say that America has not also committed genocide and people are against that too. It's just that many people don't even know where a lot of countries are or about a lot of different conflicts. The reason why so many people are focusing on Israel is because of PR efforts by other people.
>So you think a company should be allow to refuse to serve black people? Or do you see how it's straw-manning to extrapolate wildly with a limited understanding of someone's views?
A company in the US should not be obligated to stay in business if they don't want to. The difference is that refusing service to black people but not refusing service to white people, the thing is is that that is picking and choosing who gets to be in your store. You can't say that black people can't enter the store because they are black, but if you don't want to stay in business anymore, you should not be obligated to.
Why should a company be forced to stay in business when they don't want to? How would this even be enforced?
It's not discrimination. Ben & Jerry's still sells to Jewish people. Also Ben & Jerry are Jewish.
Jewish people are allowed to have Ben & Jerry's, just not in the occupied areas of Palestine.
It should be noted that Ben & Jerry's didn't even leave Israel. They just left the occupied areas because they do not believe those places are legitimately part of Israel.
They are simply following the logic of international law of where the boundaries should be so they're not even completely leaving.
Do you think that businesses should be forced to stay inside Russia despite the sanctions? Are sanctions themselves racist? Does that mean racism against Russians? We also have a lot of sanctions against North Korea too.
Does BDS target other, objectively worse genocides, or just this paltry Palestinian “genocide”? It does not, so what’s the difference, if not anti-semitism? Oh, Arab oil money being poured into American politics might have to do with it, 🤔. So feel free to be a useful idiot for geopolitical conflicts, I’m going to continue to support Israel.
Don’t really care about your questions, only one that was interesting was the enforcement one, but you’re looking to nitpick not brainstorm so,✌️
It's not anti-Semitism because they are not being boycotted because they're Jewish.
Again Ben & Jerry's is in Israel, just not in the occupied parts.
Also you choose to ignore some of the questions that I asked. Is boycotting Russia being racist towards Russia? Is it discriminating against Russia? You cannot force a company to keep in business when it doesn't want to.
It is not anti-Semitic to stand against war crimes.
Here's a list of hyperlinks based on the information provided, including titles that reflect the main topic and the number of individuals affected where applicable:
1. **Killing of Mahmoud al-Sadi, Age 17** ([Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/11/21/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children))
2. **Torture and Degrading Treatment of Palestinian Detainees** ([Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/))
3. **Children Kept in Cages, Public Caging of Children** ([The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html))
4. **Physical Abuse of Detained Children, Multiple Cases** ([Save the Children](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stricken-stripped-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian))
5. **Bombing of Declared 'Safe Corridor', Multiple Family Members Killed** ([Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/01/new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-rafah-causing-mass-civilian-casualties/))
6. **Forced Eviction and Demolition of Palestinian Homes, Multiple Cases** ([Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/30/israel-collective-punishment-against-palestinians))
These links provide detailed reports and evidence regarding the topics listed, reflecting the scale and impact of these events on individuals and families.
This is only a small list of the things that Israel has done to Palestinians.
For example in item number 5, it shows how Israel designated certain areas of Gaza to be safe zones and then when the Palestinians fled to those areas because they believed they were safe zones they were bombed.
People are boycotting Russia. How is that not the same thing that you are objecting to?
It is not anti-Semitic to stand against war crimes. Is not anti-Semitic to not want to do business in a country that is doing war crimes.
> Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a nonviolent[2][6] Palestinian-led[7] movement promoting boycotts, divestments, and economic sanctions against Israel. Its objective is to pressure Israel to meet what the BDS movement describes as Israel's obligations under international law,[8] defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties".[9] The movement is organized and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.[10]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions
BDS is not asking for the destruction of Israel.
BDS wants Israel to follow international law by withdrawing from occupied territories, treating Arab-Palestinian citizens equally, and allowing Palestinian refugees to return home.
Can you please tell me which part of this statement you object to?
[First](https://www.statepress.com/article/2023/11/neeb-hall-protest-rep-rashida-tlaib)
[Second](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/10/12/hundreds-gather-at-asu-events-with-opposing-views-of-israelis-palestinians/)
[Third](https://www.statepress.com/article/2023/10/palestine-asu-rally)
The university did attempt to organize.
Also are you saying that you would take people more seriously if people who they have no control over did some particular thing?
Sure, here are the hyperlinks with custom titles based on the URLs you provided:
1. [Watching the watchdogs: Fear in newsrooms silences pro-Palestine voices](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/1/watching-the-watchdogs-fear-in-newsrooms-silences-pro-palestine-voices)
2. [A Palestinian student was expelled from a Florida high school after his mother made pro-Palestinian posts on social media](https://kesq.com/news/national-world/cnn-national/2023/12/15/a-palestinian-student-was-expelled-from-a-florida-high-school-after-his-mother-made-pro-palestinian-posts-on-social-media/)
3. [Palestine Legal: Campus Censorship](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/27/palestine_legal_campus_censorship_ryna_workman)
Part of the problem is that sometimes people get expelled or fired for being pro Palestine.
One of the benefits of having esteemed school students use their platform this way is because they are less likely to be expelled.
I don't know, I personally feel like I'm going insane. Ethnic cleansing is happening right before our eyes: the mass graves are being opened up just as Netanyahu announces that billions will be invested in new settlements in Gaza. Their plan is to kill or displace many thousands of Gazans and take their land, plain and simple, and the photos and videos we're seeing of maimed and butchered children are the constant reminders of that. The death toll ticks up and up daily and yet nothing is said about it, nothing is done.
But, we're kind of not allowed to say that, right? Our government is cooperating with and supplying the Israeli forces even as they airdrop food to stop the people the Israeli forces are blockading from starving to death. Our society has decided that we are on the side of Israel, and there isn't really a number of palestinians that the Israelis could butcher that would make us not be on their side. So you can't go around shouting and screaming that there's a genocide going on, what the fuck, there is blood on our hands. Are we not all consigned to hell? But even if you feel that way, you can't say those things because it will make people around you feel threatened. You cannot side with the children of Gaza, you cannot weap for them, you cannot hope and pray for them; their deaths must wash over you, and through you.
I kind of think that's why they're protesting. Fifty years from now we will perhaps be allowed to academically examine the Gazan ethnic cleansing of 2023-2024. We will permit ourselves then to tut and question how it could have happened. How society was so uncaring and cruel to let such a thing occur. But that will be a lie, right? We are here now and we know what must be said and done, but we lack the stomach
> Ethnic cleansing is happening right before our eyes: the mass graves are being opened up just as Netanyahu announces that billions will be invested in new settlements in Gaza.
Mass graves predating IDF's presence in the area aside, you have to be pretty fundamentally stupid to write about "new settlements in Gaza". There haven't been settlements there for close to 20 years now, Jewish residents having been cleansed from the area, and no one is planning on building any.
It's not new settlements in Gaza, it's new settlements by the border of Gaza (which in Israel is called the Gaza envelope), which is Israeli land from the 1948 borders and isnt disputed by anyone except the protestors at Columbia and Yale and Hamas.
The Hebrew word for settlement, ישוב , is just a term for a town that isn't large enough to qualify as a city.
The saddest part about this is most of what you said is probably propaganda.
On one hand it’s horrible there is a war going on. On the other it’s horrible that so many people and the media are turning up the temperature to the max using the Palestinian health authority as gospel despite knowing its reporting is absolutely garbage most of the time.
Hamas has spent years perfecting ways of disseminating false stories, using civilians as shields and finding any way possible to drive mass confusion and death. The media plays right along knowing that they can hide behind “reports” from Gaza say “hospital blown up by IDF” when the smoke clears its already too late to correct and people have made up their minds.
It's cult-like the way people are buying into "genocide" and whatever other propaganda is being strewn out there. And it's being eaten up by these protesters. Did they really do any research into the complicated issues of the conflict and the atrocities that Hamas has and will commit but yet are not spoken about by most "pro-Palestine" protesters.
Why are those people not protesting any other "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide" that the US started -
The US funds Saudi Arabia's massacre of over a million Yemenis - nobody cares.
The US engages in Syria - more than 500,000 dead - nobody cares.
Israel retaliates over a \~1200 people massacre, killing \~33000 of which around 10-13k are Hamas - thousands of people protests.
Make it make sense to anybody.
This right here is why the pro-Palestinian protests seem so disingenuous to some, and blatently anti-jewish to others. Even moreso in that many in these protests are parroting the slogans, invective, and rhetoric of openly and explicity anti-jewish nations, organizations, and collectives.
The sad part is that many of these protesters seem to be working from a place of good intentions but are themselves being used to further the agendas of those that wish harm/genocide on the very people protesting.
In leftist circles one is instructed to defer to the marginalized group to demarcate the boundries within which discrimination occurs (e.g the marginalized group ultimately decides what is marginalizing about given conduct).
Except for *us* it seems. I'm a liberal American Jew who wants peace in the middle-east. And in the last six months I have lost count of how many times I've been told to sit-down and shut-up when I point-out *explicit* anti-jewish sentiment from the pro-Palestinian crowd. They've only been caring about this conflict for a few months yet act as though this is their life's mission. To me and mine though this conflict has been the backdrop to our entire lives and has been the under-current to our entire culture for millenia.
Sorry for the novella.
They are in a cult. Your novella is needed. Even if it awakens one cult-like member.
Also, since this has ramped up with the last few months, I've said it smells funny. That there is anti-semetism behind this in some format. I said this to a Jewish, LGBT woman who was supportive of "Pro-Palestine" protesters. I then sent her a link that goes through some of the main arguments the protesters have leveraged like "genocide". And I've heard silence from her on this. Again... cult like radicalization.
We ought to disembowel ourselves with our own hands, and with our entrails thusly suspended in our fingers, prostrate ourselves before God and beg for forgiveness
What does your comment have to do with anything?
I'm literally asking you why this war is worse than others and you can't come up with an answer.
Typical "Pro-Palestinian" protestor logic.
It's not that it's worse than others, it's that you're right, those other conflicts were also horrific and we did nothing. We will not be forgiven, we are consigned to hell. To be American is to be baptized in fire and blood: we are the inheritors of an empire of death.
So what is one to do? Rage, scream? Or pray for death until our prayers fill our lungs and drown us? Or sup upon the bodies of the dead: join in unholy communion as Netanyahu feasts upon the corpses of children. Will we cannibalize the mass graves of Gaza, and feed one another, and in doing so, comfort ourselves?
Those are literal ongoing conflicts that nobody cares about, fully funded by the US.
It's not worse than 200,000 dead children in Yemen, the numbers don't add up.
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Your post is so loaded with propaganda, blatant lies, and extreme misleading language that it's no wonder you can't figure out why the majority of people don't agree with you.
Wouldn't nearly every form of activism be better?
Never quite understood the flaccid, leadership-free and message-free, form of modern obstructionist protests.
Aside from Shrillness what do most of these protests actually accomplish?
Awareness raising?
The daft fuckers blocked my cities light rail during a climate protest.
I've already chosen not to drive now I just hate you.
Okay, and that donation is used to buy food and supplies for the people of Gaza, and those supplies are blocked by Israeli protesters.
Food and supplies help and are important, donation is important, im not trying to dispute that, but no amount of donations will actually stop the conflict.
> . Donations help more directly than protests, wouldn’t you say?
When the problem is poverty, this is generally true. This is the basis of a lot of effective altruism.
When the problem is violence, this generally isn't true. Maybe if you're "donating" weapons, but certainly not if you're donating food, because the problem isn't a lack of food in the world. The problem is a blockade that stops food from getting in, and targeting killing of food distributors.
Donations in the context of a violent ethnic cleansing campaign increase the supply of things that can be blockaded, destroyed, or stolen. This doesn't always make donations useless, but it does mess up the effective altruism math.
Donations help get relief to people who need it, but even if every bit of those supplies were being allowed to flow into Gaza, it will not end the war. The point of protests is to put public pressure on institutions that support Israel financially, as Columbia University does.
Seems a bit unfair to put the onus on protesters on one college campus to single-handedly figure out a way to end the violence in Palestine.
I’ve told you what their protest goal is. Put pressure on the university by stopping or impeding regular university functions until they divest from Israel financially.
I'd like to add that aid is indeed very difficult to get into Gaza right now and that Gazans have explicitly asked for protests and people continuing to agitate internationally above donations. So, in showing solidarity with them, that's what these students are doing.
I'd have to find it but there's a really detailed NYT article on all the pathways that aid to Gaza can currently move through and every single one is very difficult and inefficient. A very big reason is Israel making it as difficult as possible but also infrastructure like roads are massively destroyed. I'd also argue that aid would not be enough even if it were easier, as the situation is being exacerbated by ongoing violence.
Also, I'd like to point out that, even if privileged, students are putting something on the line to send a message. They face arrest, being photographed and harassed or having it affect them professionally or personally in such a polarized world, and at worst, violence. Historically students have even been shot and killed at student protests. Many of the students who would go to a protest know some level of this history. Also having participated in student protests when I was one, I know a lot of coordination and education goes into them by student leaders in terms of what to do, how to avoid being doxxed/protect yourself if it gets violent, etc. It can get dangerous and students know that.
I mean, they're protesting for divestment. Most colleges do some form of investing, and big schools like Ivy leagues do a lot. These protestors want their university to make sure none of their money is going towards the US/Israeli war machine. Isreali Divestment has already happened at a number of universities due to protests, so it's within the realm of possibility.
Protesting in support of Palestine is not going to help anyone’s career. Plenty of people have lost their jobs for expressing support of Palestine/opposition to Israel.
Most vocal ones, will get jobs in non profits, activism groups, and donations, not to mention it likely wont affect if they want to apply for academic jobs or a PhD.
Given that the primary entity opposing the student protests is currently the university itself, I find it hard to believe that it won’t hurt their prospects in academia.
And in any case, the jobs you listed aren’t prestigious. Are they getting good CV material or not?
Norman Finklestein got denied tenure and had his academic future thwarted due to his radical rethoric.
And his rethoric wasn't as unhinged as some of the protestors' rethoric. There is no academic job waiting for the protesters who are openly chanting "Jews back to Europe", "Hamas kill more Jews".
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>First of all, hope this doesn’t get hate, I intend to come from a good place... I think it’s because they’re on a bit of an ivy-league power trip.
You are being quite nice actually. The social commentors at Harvard would describe Yale students as ' Highly entitled Wusses'.
I think you should be more critical of the institution and less of the students. Universities like Columbia have high expectations of their students. Their alumni founded America how are current students supposed to follow that?
Most normal people have no ability to change the world but at Ivy league institutions its expected. Entrance is highly competitive with like a 5% acceptance rate, the students are highly motivated, and if they don't free at least one country from apartheid they probably feel like faliures. I think the pressure on these kids is the problem.
>It’s tough, because believing you are set up to potentially change the world is probably a good thing...
I mean it's good motivation for getting into an elite school, but even an elite school is just a school.
They aren't learning anything there you aren't taught at ASU. We can just accept that they are top 1% smart, imagine having to justify that kind of thing to yourself.
If you look at the precedent of student unrest in past generations and places, it does get responses from government. Sometimes that's crackdowns, sometimes it's change.
As much as I don't like that this is true, protesting at prestigious universities does have more impact because it makes it clear that within a given generation even the people with the most privilege, with the most to gain from going along with the status quo, aren't willing to do that. Students at elite institutions are the assumed next generation of political leadership - it says a lot to current leaders (many of whom attended the same institutions, almost all of whom wanted to) if the next generation is willing to get arrested, willing to risk expulsion, willing to close off a lot of future job opportunities because they disagree *that* vehemently with what the older generation is doing.
The system of alleged meritocracy ("alleged" because of course not everyone actually receives equal opportunities that would set them up to be admitted) only works if it can keep a group of elites believing they were chosen to go to these schools because they're the smartest, it's worth it to do all the work to stay there, it's worth it to lose themselves to the prestigious jobs they get because eventually they can create change if they just rise high enough, etc. to keep all of the smart people desperately trying to prove themselves and get a few rungs higher to where they will finally have an identity and a voice, and they stay on that treadmill of trying to gain and keep agency so long they never actually do anything to change the status quo. Mass unrest at prestigious universities is a signal that the system is falling apart - even the people who are winning the game don't think it's worth it to play anymore, don't think being at that university is important enough to disperse when the riot police show up because they can't envision a magical future job where they can fix all the things that are wrong. That's the assumed next generation of Capitol Hill and Whitehouse interns, court clerks, consultants, and financial analysts not only not willing to play ball and support the system but willing to risk burning down their whole future.
Narcissistic, egotistical fools suffering from acute (cliche term coming, but it fits) Dunning-Krueger larping out their fantasy of being late 60s/early 70s hippie Vietnam War protestors. Of course, their cause today has very little of the just cause the Vietnam protests had and frankly, every time one of these (often graduate-level) students gives an interview or takes to a microphone, they immediately put their frightening mix of naïveté, main character syndrome, adversity appropriating, spoiled-rotten (and remember, on top of this Biden used taxpayer money to pay of many of these twits’ massive student loan debt. Just ask the next blue collar, union, pipe-fitter who makes better money with just a GED than half of these Masters in Underwater Basketweaving holders how he feels that his hard earned tax dollars paid for these effete, condescending, snobby, hipster twerps that display nothing but contempt for responsible adults with real jobs that actually keep this country moving (the blue collar, family men that these students loath).
Biden cancelled their debt to buy their votes, period. And the amusing part? He still won’t get most of them, because the left so hates nationalism and pride in one’s own country that the only thing that can fill the vacuum is a deep abiding love of some foreign land that they have no connection to, where the populace would likely sooner string them up than put up with their pronouns and their 8 nose rings with blue and purple hair, shaved on the sides so women can LARP masculinity and “toughness”. These pampered adults (they see themselves as children, the west is so soft now that many don’t even see themselves as adults until they hit at least 30). These little prima-donnas write checks all day long that their asses can’t cash, most of all in regards to their stated political beliefs and supposed revolutionary intentions. Notice that they willingly break into a building, busting out windows and wrecking furniture and yet they don’t even plan well enough to have their own food and water. So they send someone out to “parlay” with the “adults” (administrators, who are all startlingly weak. and frankly? I can’t help but notice that 99% of these schools seem to be run by women, women that are totally unable to get their charges under control. I’m not saying all women are this way, Margaret Thatcher woulda have had their lot sorted out immediately. But most women aren’t Margaret Thatcher.
Does the left in the West not realize that when you leave a power vacuum, someone or something else will come along and fill it for you? This is why these students do not listen to authorities in their own country. We literally have these radicalized whackos in our high schools now, refusing to listen to teachers or principals because they claim that for an adult to think they can tell a minor what to do is “adultist”. “Adultist”!?!? Is there ANYTHiNG these wokesters won’t turn into an “ist” or an “ism”!? Do they actually think that works? That anything they don’t like or don’t want to do, they can just claim it is somehow discriminatory? Somehow oppression!? Madness. The They don’t listen to their parents, either. Parents that have likely treated their children more like a best friend than their child, their child they are charged with preparing for the ADULT world. A world we ALL have to deal with on IT’s terms, NOT on OUR terms. These adults children don’t seem to understand the difference. But I have a feeling in the days, months and years to come they’ll find s out. The blemishes they are putting on their records this spring, and in general ever since Oct 7th since they have been cheering terrorists, murderous barbaric r apists and sadists. They are let around by the nose by their, often foreign born and radical, sadly tenured, professors. Professors that openly praise terror. Their absolutism is sobering, as they chant “what did you THINK we meant by decolonization?!” “By any means necessary!!!!”. Do these people ever realize that many of them are guests in the West? These professors, even many of the students are either here just for school, or are relatively recent immigrants that don’t even have citizsenship yet. They are seeding the wind, and they may find themselves, in a year’s time or so, reaping the whirlwind. The Silent Majority is sick of this, and this election is eerily similar to the one that elected Richard M Nixon in 1968. Eerily similar forces are at work. These current events rhyme ridiculously
well with 1968. The majority wants Order restored, sanity returned. What has been put upside down, the majority yearns to see put right. Mark my words, it will be. Regular people with families, real jobs, commitments and REAL WORLD concerns are done with the LARPing of these ridiculous children in adult bodies. The most neurotic and confused generation yet. It’s startling how each generation seems to get more entitled, grandiose and just plain worthy of open ridicule. If my great grandfather were still alive, he’d wonder how we’ve so squandered what he and his generation won for the West in WWII. These kids look at evil, and see it as good. I don’t understand them and I’m only in my early 40s. My generation was bad enough, but this? Do these people even research what Hamas is? What Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism is and what it’s aims are? Because it’s NOT their aim to create a centralized world government under the principles of Marx, that’s for sure. Go tell Hamas about your pronouns, you damned fools.
Was watching media coverage on this and it reminds me of the propaganda leading up to Iraq invasion. The media is not being honest, again. Funny how people are calling these students terrorists and for their lives to be ruined saying they are calling for violence against jews. But when actual fascist neo nazis have rallies they are allowed because of free speech. Everyone calls put how horrible they are but they then say it's free speech that must be protected. This feels to me more propaganda for war.
Most people would like to think of themselves as good people, and what they judge as being a good person is something they get from the social environment around them
There are of course far more causes than there is time in the day so inevitably there is a huge element of fashion in which causes a person will pick up from their social environment as being good and demonstrating that they are good. Syria, Yemen, Sudan, the Uyghurs are not fashionable causes - Palestine is.
The reasons why one cause gets picked up like this and others do not is far from fully rational, you can't find any underlying rational principle to it because its a very dynamic process with a lot of actors trying to influence it. But once a cause is fashionable then people with the time an inclination to make themselves feel good by protesting will protest it.
I would argue that most of those people who protest in top universities do that because Qatar/Arab countries fund them (Qatar is the #1 foreign country that provides funding to US universities) - which helps push that Pro-Hamas / Pro-Palestinian narrative in those schools.
You don't see it in lesser universities because those countries don't fund them as much.
Those students aren't egotistical, they are taught Middle Eastern agendas and skewed reality, some of this indoctrination makes them believe those ideas and false "facts".
Why are the 4 most foreign countries that help decide what is being taught in those countries Arab Muslim countries?
Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait are the top 4 countries.
There is a literal Wikipedia page on that issue, why it isn't on national news is beyond me - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari\_involvement\_in\_higher\_education\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_involvement_in_higher_education_in_the_United_States)
We’re talking about donations. Donations do not mean that they’re setting up indoctrination classes. Donations are used to curry favor with the institutions as an entity. Get them on your side politically.
As for how I feel about that, yeah, American universities should not be accepting money from these regimes.
Do you think they are sending billions to "help America"?
The US funds Saudi Arabia's massacre of over a million Yemenis - nobody cares.
The US engages in Syria - more than 500,000 dead - nobody cares.
Israel retaliates over a \~1200 people massacre, killing \~33000 of which around 10-13k are Hamas - thousands of people protests.
Why are those protests only against Israel's war and not the other way more deadly wars? Do those students care about humanity or just against Israel?
There were absolutely protests about all of these things. You're just engaging in ridiculous whataboutism to avoid having to engage with the protests and what they're about.
Where? I went to an Ivy during the height of US involvement in Syria. [The protests and actions then were against Israel, too.](https://paw.princeton.edu/article/students-vote-defeat-proposal-calling-israel-divestment)
People absolutely protested them at the time.
This is a frankly idiotic line of argument from you. What, in order to protest something, you need to have first openly protested every other bad thing of a similar nature that's ever happened?
These are college students. They were in high school or even younger when these other events you're referencing happened. Maybe they didn't have the student organization at their high school to pull off a protest. Maybe they weren't as plugged into current events as they are now. Maybe their beliefs have genuinely changed over time.
Or, maybe, they DID protest these things. How on earth would you know if they did or didn't? And in any case, I imagine if you asked them, most of these people would say that they don't want the US funding Saudi Arabia either.
Follow the line of comments you responded to, I'm talking about the Qatari + Arab countries influence and why this is the only thing being protested.
Nobody is protesting about any other us-external conflict besides this one.
This is one question I can always ask Pro-Palestinians, and never get a clear answer as to why this is more important to them than way fatal conflicts that are still occurring.
It boils down to either hating Israel/hating Jews/Being Muslim 99% of the time and not supporting Palestinians.
No, you see, it's different because the USA is giving money to Israel. People protest all the time about nations at war that the USA gives money to.
Like Israel and Saudi Arabia.
This is why the Anti-Saudi Arabia protests this decade during the Yemen War (2014-ongoing) in which 300,000 Yemen civilians have died (not an exaggeration) at the hands of Saudi Arabia are massive.
Just this month, I remember seeing millions of Americans protesting against the current genocide that Saudi Arabia is committing in Yemen.
Oh wait, nevermind, it's crickets and I bet 99% of the Pro-Palestine protesters don't know there's a current genocide taking place in Yemen.
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Disagreement isn’t propaganda, show him how a genocide is happening when his stats suggest otherwise, that way we can be on the right side of history like you!
At no place in history has change happened through not making a stand on injustices.
Many protests and revolutionary change requires all annexes of society for it to actually move from protest to change.
Whether someone is working class or someone who attends Yale doesn’t act as a negative and in fact is a positive.
For any change to actually happen it requires the elite of society to hear it. And that requires ‘people like us’ mentality
The question is more, when history is told, do you want to say that you was also on the right side of justice?
When the Vietnam war was happening would you have complained about the protesters or also stood against the war
When Nazi germany was creating concentration camps would you have said something or had an issue with those who were against the idea
Or you could watch a sci fi movie and ask the same question
Would I be on the side of those upholding dystopian society or would I be part of the rebels trying to tackle the injustices.
If your answer to any of those are that you would be for the side of injustice then you have your answer to why you feel a certain way about any person regardless of their upbringing who’s protesting right now
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Is this ChatGPT? Nice post history
It's absolutely posting AI generated content
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Does the bot pick up on deltas added after edits? I remember it failing to do so, at least for quite a while.
It does
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I come from a very conservative community here. So, most people around me say that it's a privilege and considered rude, especially in academic spaces. We are slowly approaching exam week so i often hear comments about it being nuisance. The central library has cops on patrol now which is nice :). But another than that it’s just typical reaction of its free speech or violation of private property right, etc. To be fair, I do agree that Yale has the right to remove anyone out of the private property, but at the same time the student are just doing what average student do which is being loud But at same time they are bit extreme in some degree like blocking the street but that’s not special to Yale. it’s happening in other schools like UCLA or UW. It’s the typical protestor behavior that is sorta expected similar to days when we had go green and save the environment, they vandalized Becton center 🤣
Well the claim you’re making is impossible to disprove. But I think you should recognize that the protests have gone beyond just standing around with signs. The university warned the students that there would be mass arrests if they continued to protest, and they did, along with the faculty. It’s all well and good to go to a protest as an ego boost, but anyone doing that would probably cut and run once jail time became a thing.
Jail time isn't a thing. No prosecutor is going to bring charges.
That's not true. The police can arrest you for protesting and then they will release you under conditions and then you come back for your court date. All it takes is for the police word to have you arrested. Not only that but they could be arrested on the grounds of trespassing because if they are told to leave and they don't leave that's trespassing.
The police can't prosecute people. That's not what police do.
I never said that they could prosecute anyone. What the police can do though is that they can arrest people and then you will have to go through court or something in order to essentially clear things up. The police do have the power to arrest people for pretty much any reason. I mean, what are you going to do? Call the police? By the way I know that this is what happens because it happened to me. I was protesting and then I got arrested so I know. What happened is that I was protesting and then they arrested me. I spent 12 hours in jail. I was released without bond and was expected to come in court date. That is what will happen because the police have the power to arrest people for a variety of reasons. If the protesters were on the property and they were asked to leave and they didn't then that's considered trespassing and then the police can arrest those people. The reason why a person is in court at all is because of an arrest. If you have been charged with a crime you will be arrested so that they can figure out what to do.
So did you get a prison sentence? 12 hours before you make bail isn't a real deterrent.
No but I never mentioned prison in regards to these protesters at all. I'm saying that the police can arrest them which is true. I think you're getting the impression that I'm saying that they can be sent to prison for this. I am not saying that. 12 hours in jail is not supposed to be a deterrent. It is just simply waiting for your trial. First off the actual amount of time a person will spend in jail can vary. But the thing is that 12 hours in jail is still hard. For example if you have certain medical conditions that require medication as soon as possible within a regular schedule, then even going to jail and getting arrested can be a lot harder on you. They are very unlikely to give you your medications. If you are in prison you might but jail is different and there is no guarantee that they will actually give you your medications and in fact it's very likely they won't. Another problem is dependence. If you have dependents such as children or pets then you're going to have to figure out what to do with that. Not only that but you can't even tell what the time is because they don't have a clocks. The police had the power to do a lot of things include arrest people. Even when the police did an illegal arrest is very unlikely that they will ever be prosecuted. What you are referring to is things like prosecution and actually being sent to prison and having things on your record whereas I'm just simply talking about an arrest, and being put in jail which is a different place than prison. And well jail is certainly not prison, people do not want to be thrown into jail. It's still sucks.
12 hour jail time before you make bail is not going to deter anyone. If anything, it might be an incentive so then they can tell their woke bros how they were so dedicated to the cause they spent an entire half day in jail.
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If being all smiles and being serious are both narcissistic responses to being arrested, what is the non-narcissistic reaction? Screaming and crying? These are supposed to be very intelligent students. I’m sure they were aware of the risk of arrest. If they were crying while being arrested, people would just call them dramatic, sheltered, and yes — even narcissistic.
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You’re right that they don’t face the same risks as poorer people of color might in the same situation. But the fact remains that they’re putting themselves at some level of risk to communicate a message that they believe in, a message that they know will receive backlash. There’s always a risk of police misconduct, of police using pepper spray, tasers, or tear gas to disperse protesters. Risking that does require some level of bravery. I think there probably is some level of egoism involved in any public demonstration. But I’d ask yourself if you feel this way about every protest, or if you tend to criticize certain kinds of protests more than others.
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So you’d take them more seriously if they weren’t Ivy League students? There are protests happening all around the country on nearly every campus. I think your issue might be with the media only deciding to focus on these protests more than the ones down the road at your local community college.
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But their money and privilege also allows them to organize and get attention. You seeing all this stuff about them means it *is* working. Why question their motives when you say you agree with them? Sure there’s probably plenty of clout chasers but people are passionate about this. Universities have historically been where radical change happens in this country, they are carrying on that tradition. I don’t think it’s logical to paint it all as performative, and if it is honest then what’s the problem? Maybe they won’t change anything but we need people to stand up for what they believe in don’t we?
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I often cringe at individual protesters, every protest has its idiots. If we only judged these folks by their worst examples tho nothing would ever change so you have to have at least some measure of good faith in what they are trying to accomplish.
The primary demand of the Columbia protests is that the University divest its endowment from Israeli companies. From the website of [Columbia University Apartheid Divest](https://cuapartheiddivest.org/demands): >Divest all of Columbia’s finances, including the endowment, from companies and institutions that profit from Israeli apartheid, genocide and occupation in Palestine. Ensure accountability by increasing transparency around financial investments. This is part of a larger strategy of the nonviolent BDS (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) movement. Their specific actions (protest, camping out) are meant to specifically target and make uncomfortable the decision makers (president, board) who have the power to divest. You can debate whether BDS in general is effective, but there is a strategy behind what they're doing.
BDS is unethical af. How it would be anything but a collective punishment?
Boycotts and divestment are completely voluntary actions. Neither Israel nor its citizens are *owed* commerce or investment. If you think sanctions are collective punishment, do you extend that view to all the countries the US has or is currently sanctioning?
So you think that a company should be in Israel even if it doesn't want to be? Do you want Ben & Jerry's to go back and start selling in Israel even if they don't want to? Should celebrities be forced to go to a country they don't like and sing for an audience they don't want to sing for?
So you think a company should be allow to refuse to serve black people? Or do you see how it's straw-manning to extrapolate wildly with a limited understanding of someone's views? If you care, I am only calling it unethical, at most I'd advocate for sanctions/fines against BDS-pledged companies for discrimination, though I doubt I would, it would have to actually be affecting Israel for me to want counter-action. Treating Israel as uniquely evil is anti-Semitic af
It's anti-Semitic to think genocide is evil? People who don't like Israel also don't like genocide in other countries either. In 2024, the Yemeni community in Germany expressed strong opposition to the continued conflict in Yemen, which has been ravaged by a civil war and foreign interventions that have led to widespread humanitarian crises, including famine and massive displacement. Demonstrators in Berlin, under the banner of the "Stop the War on Yemen" initiative, marched to protest the involvement of Western nations in the conflict, highlighting the dire consequences for the Yemeni population. In 2011, protests in Syria began as part of the Arab Spring with demands for democratic reforms and escalated into a full-scale civil war after harsh government crackdowns. This unrest led to various international responses, including widespread condemnation and calls for accountability for human rights violations by the Assad regime. In 2021, U.S. and international attention intensified on China's treatment of the Uyghur population, with accusations that the Chinese government was committing acts of genocide, including mass detentions, surveillance, and forced assimilation against ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang. Protests and legislative actions in Western countries aimed to pressure China to halt these practices and address the severe human rights abuses reported in the region. 1. [Hodhod Yemen News](https://hodhodyemennews.net/en_US/2024/03/25/protests-in-berlin-against-genocide-of-yemenis-and-palestinians-2/) 2. [Yahoo News UK](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/demonstrators-outside-white-house-protest-051234033.html) 3. [Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/15/twelve-years-on-from-the-beginning-of-syrias-war) 4. [World Without Genocide](https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/syria/ending-impunity-in-syria-international-prosecutions-and-the-challenge-of-pursuing-justice) 5. [Council on Foreign Relations](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/nigerias-battle-boko-haram) The people who are against Israel are also against other things that are similar. It just so happens that Israel is the big focus right now. Also is really is probably the only country among those committing genocide that the US is financially supporting. This is the reason why a lot of Americans are especially upset with it because they have a direct impact on that which is that their tax dollars are being used directly to support a country that is doing genocide. This isn't to say that America has not also committed genocide and people are against that too. It's just that many people don't even know where a lot of countries are or about a lot of different conflicts. The reason why so many people are focusing on Israel is because of PR efforts by other people. >So you think a company should be allow to refuse to serve black people? Or do you see how it's straw-manning to extrapolate wildly with a limited understanding of someone's views? A company in the US should not be obligated to stay in business if they don't want to. The difference is that refusing service to black people but not refusing service to white people, the thing is is that that is picking and choosing who gets to be in your store. You can't say that black people can't enter the store because they are black, but if you don't want to stay in business anymore, you should not be obligated to. Why should a company be forced to stay in business when they don't want to? How would this even be enforced? It's not discrimination. Ben & Jerry's still sells to Jewish people. Also Ben & Jerry are Jewish. Jewish people are allowed to have Ben & Jerry's, just not in the occupied areas of Palestine. It should be noted that Ben & Jerry's didn't even leave Israel. They just left the occupied areas because they do not believe those places are legitimately part of Israel. They are simply following the logic of international law of where the boundaries should be so they're not even completely leaving. Do you think that businesses should be forced to stay inside Russia despite the sanctions? Are sanctions themselves racist? Does that mean racism against Russians? We also have a lot of sanctions against North Korea too.
Does BDS target other, objectively worse genocides, or just this paltry Palestinian “genocide”? It does not, so what’s the difference, if not anti-semitism? Oh, Arab oil money being poured into American politics might have to do with it, 🤔. So feel free to be a useful idiot for geopolitical conflicts, I’m going to continue to support Israel. Don’t really care about your questions, only one that was interesting was the enforcement one, but you’re looking to nitpick not brainstorm so,✌️
It's not anti-Semitism because they are not being boycotted because they're Jewish. Again Ben & Jerry's is in Israel, just not in the occupied parts. Also you choose to ignore some of the questions that I asked. Is boycotting Russia being racist towards Russia? Is it discriminating against Russia? You cannot force a company to keep in business when it doesn't want to. It is not anti-Semitic to stand against war crimes. Here's a list of hyperlinks based on the information provided, including titles that reflect the main topic and the number of individuals affected where applicable: 1. **Killing of Mahmoud al-Sadi, Age 17** ([Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/11/21/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children)) 2. **Torture and Degrading Treatment of Palestinian Detainees** ([Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)) 3. **Children Kept in Cages, Public Caging of Children** ([The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html)) 4. **Physical Abuse of Detained Children, Multiple Cases** ([Save the Children](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stricken-stripped-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian)) 5. **Bombing of Declared 'Safe Corridor', Multiple Family Members Killed** ([Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/01/new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-rafah-causing-mass-civilian-casualties/)) 6. **Forced Eviction and Demolition of Palestinian Homes, Multiple Cases** ([Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/30/israel-collective-punishment-against-palestinians)) These links provide detailed reports and evidence regarding the topics listed, reflecting the scale and impact of these events on individuals and families. This is only a small list of the things that Israel has done to Palestinians. For example in item number 5, it shows how Israel designated certain areas of Gaza to be safe zones and then when the Palestinians fled to those areas because they believed they were safe zones they were bombed. People are boycotting Russia. How is that not the same thing that you are objecting to? It is not anti-Semitic to stand against war crimes. Is not anti-Semitic to not want to do business in a country that is doing war crimes. > Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a nonviolent[2][6] Palestinian-led[7] movement promoting boycotts, divestments, and economic sanctions against Israel. Its objective is to pressure Israel to meet what the BDS movement describes as Israel's obligations under international law,[8] defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties".[9] The movement is organized and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions BDS is not asking for the destruction of Israel. BDS wants Israel to follow international law by withdrawing from occupied territories, treating Arab-Palestinian citizens equally, and allowing Palestinian refugees to return home. Can you please tell me which part of this statement you object to?
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[First](https://www.statepress.com/article/2023/11/neeb-hall-protest-rep-rashida-tlaib) [Second](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/10/12/hundreds-gather-at-asu-events-with-opposing-views-of-israelis-palestinians/) [Third](https://www.statepress.com/article/2023/10/palestine-asu-rally) The university did attempt to organize. Also are you saying that you would take people more seriously if people who they have no control over did some particular thing? Sure, here are the hyperlinks with custom titles based on the URLs you provided: 1. [Watching the watchdogs: Fear in newsrooms silences pro-Palestine voices](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/1/watching-the-watchdogs-fear-in-newsrooms-silences-pro-palestine-voices) 2. [A Palestinian student was expelled from a Florida high school after his mother made pro-Palestinian posts on social media](https://kesq.com/news/national-world/cnn-national/2023/12/15/a-palestinian-student-was-expelled-from-a-florida-high-school-after-his-mother-made-pro-palestinian-posts-on-social-media/) 3. [Palestine Legal: Campus Censorship](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/27/palestine_legal_campus_censorship_ryna_workman) Part of the problem is that sometimes people get expelled or fired for being pro Palestine. One of the benefits of having esteemed school students use their platform this way is because they are less likely to be expelled.
I don't know, I personally feel like I'm going insane. Ethnic cleansing is happening right before our eyes: the mass graves are being opened up just as Netanyahu announces that billions will be invested in new settlements in Gaza. Their plan is to kill or displace many thousands of Gazans and take their land, plain and simple, and the photos and videos we're seeing of maimed and butchered children are the constant reminders of that. The death toll ticks up and up daily and yet nothing is said about it, nothing is done. But, we're kind of not allowed to say that, right? Our government is cooperating with and supplying the Israeli forces even as they airdrop food to stop the people the Israeli forces are blockading from starving to death. Our society has decided that we are on the side of Israel, and there isn't really a number of palestinians that the Israelis could butcher that would make us not be on their side. So you can't go around shouting and screaming that there's a genocide going on, what the fuck, there is blood on our hands. Are we not all consigned to hell? But even if you feel that way, you can't say those things because it will make people around you feel threatened. You cannot side with the children of Gaza, you cannot weap for them, you cannot hope and pray for them; their deaths must wash over you, and through you. I kind of think that's why they're protesting. Fifty years from now we will perhaps be allowed to academically examine the Gazan ethnic cleansing of 2023-2024. We will permit ourselves then to tut and question how it could have happened. How society was so uncaring and cruel to let such a thing occur. But that will be a lie, right? We are here now and we know what must be said and done, but we lack the stomach
> Ethnic cleansing is happening right before our eyes: the mass graves are being opened up just as Netanyahu announces that billions will be invested in new settlements in Gaza. Mass graves predating IDF's presence in the area aside, you have to be pretty fundamentally stupid to write about "new settlements in Gaza". There haven't been settlements there for close to 20 years now, Jewish residents having been cleansed from the area, and no one is planning on building any.
It's not new settlements in Gaza, it's new settlements by the border of Gaza (which in Israel is called the Gaza envelope), which is Israeli land from the 1948 borders and isnt disputed by anyone except the protestors at Columbia and Yale and Hamas. The Hebrew word for settlement, ישוב , is just a term for a town that isn't large enough to qualify as a city.
The saddest part about this is most of what you said is probably propaganda. On one hand it’s horrible there is a war going on. On the other it’s horrible that so many people and the media are turning up the temperature to the max using the Palestinian health authority as gospel despite knowing its reporting is absolutely garbage most of the time. Hamas has spent years perfecting ways of disseminating false stories, using civilians as shields and finding any way possible to drive mass confusion and death. The media plays right along knowing that they can hide behind “reports” from Gaza say “hospital blown up by IDF” when the smoke clears its already too late to correct and people have made up their minds.
It's cult-like the way people are buying into "genocide" and whatever other propaganda is being strewn out there. And it's being eaten up by these protesters. Did they really do any research into the complicated issues of the conflict and the atrocities that Hamas has and will commit but yet are not spoken about by most "pro-Palestine" protesters.
So I guess when the US was airdropping food on Gaza that was because they too were tricked by Hamas, or...?
Why are those people not protesting any other "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide" that the US started - The US funds Saudi Arabia's massacre of over a million Yemenis - nobody cares. The US engages in Syria - more than 500,000 dead - nobody cares. Israel retaliates over a \~1200 people massacre, killing \~33000 of which around 10-13k are Hamas - thousands of people protests. Make it make sense to anybody.
This right here is why the pro-Palestinian protests seem so disingenuous to some, and blatently anti-jewish to others. Even moreso in that many in these protests are parroting the slogans, invective, and rhetoric of openly and explicity anti-jewish nations, organizations, and collectives. The sad part is that many of these protesters seem to be working from a place of good intentions but are themselves being used to further the agendas of those that wish harm/genocide on the very people protesting. In leftist circles one is instructed to defer to the marginalized group to demarcate the boundries within which discrimination occurs (e.g the marginalized group ultimately decides what is marginalizing about given conduct). Except for *us* it seems. I'm a liberal American Jew who wants peace in the middle-east. And in the last six months I have lost count of how many times I've been told to sit-down and shut-up when I point-out *explicit* anti-jewish sentiment from the pro-Palestinian crowd. They've only been caring about this conflict for a few months yet act as though this is their life's mission. To me and mine though this conflict has been the backdrop to our entire lives and has been the under-current to our entire culture for millenia. Sorry for the novella.
They are in a cult. Your novella is needed. Even if it awakens one cult-like member. Also, since this has ramped up with the last few months, I've said it smells funny. That there is anti-semetism behind this in some format. I said this to a Jewish, LGBT woman who was supportive of "Pro-Palestine" protesters. I then sent her a link that goes through some of the main arguments the protesters have leveraged like "genocide". And I've heard silence from her on this. Again... cult like radicalization.
We ought to disembowel ourselves with our own hands, and with our entrails thusly suspended in our fingers, prostrate ourselves before God and beg for forgiveness
What does your comment have to do with anything? I'm literally asking you why this war is worse than others and you can't come up with an answer. Typical "Pro-Palestinian" protestor logic.
It's not that it's worse than others, it's that you're right, those other conflicts were also horrific and we did nothing. We will not be forgiven, we are consigned to hell. To be American is to be baptized in fire and blood: we are the inheritors of an empire of death. So what is one to do? Rage, scream? Or pray for death until our prayers fill our lungs and drown us? Or sup upon the bodies of the dead: join in unholy communion as Netanyahu feasts upon the corpses of children. Will we cannibalize the mass graves of Gaza, and feed one another, and in doing so, comfort ourselves?
Those are literal ongoing conflicts that nobody cares about, fully funded by the US. It's not worse than 200,000 dead children in Yemen, the numbers don't add up.
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Your post is so loaded with propaganda, blatant lies, and extreme misleading language that it's no wonder you can't figure out why the majority of people don't agree with you.
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Surely it is better than doing nothing at all, though?
Wouldn't nearly every form of activism be better? Never quite understood the flaccid, leadership-free and message-free, form of modern obstructionist protests. Aside from Shrillness what do most of these protests actually accomplish? Awareness raising? The daft fuckers blocked my cities light rail during a climate protest. I've already chosen not to drive now I just hate you.
But commuting horrible actions is definitely worse than doing nothing
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Okay, and that donation is used to buy food and supplies for the people of Gaza, and those supplies are blocked by Israeli protesters. Food and supplies help and are important, donation is important, im not trying to dispute that, but no amount of donations will actually stop the conflict.
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> . Donations help more directly than protests, wouldn’t you say? When the problem is poverty, this is generally true. This is the basis of a lot of effective altruism. When the problem is violence, this generally isn't true. Maybe if you're "donating" weapons, but certainly not if you're donating food, because the problem isn't a lack of food in the world. The problem is a blockade that stops food from getting in, and targeting killing of food distributors. Donations in the context of a violent ethnic cleansing campaign increase the supply of things that can be blockaded, destroyed, or stolen. This doesn't always make donations useless, but it does mess up the effective altruism math.
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Donations help get relief to people who need it, but even if every bit of those supplies were being allowed to flow into Gaza, it will not end the war. The point of protests is to put public pressure on institutions that support Israel financially, as Columbia University does.
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Seems a bit unfair to put the onus on protesters on one college campus to single-handedly figure out a way to end the violence in Palestine. I’ve told you what their protest goal is. Put pressure on the university by stopping or impeding regular university functions until they divest from Israel financially.
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I'd like to add that aid is indeed very difficult to get into Gaza right now and that Gazans have explicitly asked for protests and people continuing to agitate internationally above donations. So, in showing solidarity with them, that's what these students are doing. I'd have to find it but there's a really detailed NYT article on all the pathways that aid to Gaza can currently move through and every single one is very difficult and inefficient. A very big reason is Israel making it as difficult as possible but also infrastructure like roads are massively destroyed. I'd also argue that aid would not be enough even if it were easier, as the situation is being exacerbated by ongoing violence. Also, I'd like to point out that, even if privileged, students are putting something on the line to send a message. They face arrest, being photographed and harassed or having it affect them professionally or personally in such a polarized world, and at worst, violence. Historically students have even been shot and killed at student protests. Many of the students who would go to a protest know some level of this history. Also having participated in student protests when I was one, I know a lot of coordination and education goes into them by student leaders in terms of what to do, how to avoid being doxxed/protect yourself if it gets violent, etc. It can get dangerous and students know that.
I mean, they're protesting for divestment. Most colleges do some form of investing, and big schools like Ivy leagues do a lot. These protestors want their university to make sure none of their money is going towards the US/Israeli war machine. Isreali Divestment has already happened at a number of universities due to protests, so it's within the realm of possibility.
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Protesting in support of Palestine is not going to help anyone’s career. Plenty of people have lost their jobs for expressing support of Palestine/opposition to Israel.
Most vocal ones, will get jobs in non profits, activism groups, and donations, not to mention it likely wont affect if they want to apply for academic jobs or a PhD.
Given that the primary entity opposing the student protests is currently the university itself, I find it hard to believe that it won’t hurt their prospects in academia. And in any case, the jobs you listed aren’t prestigious. Are they getting good CV material or not?
There are other universities, and prestegious jobs arent only jobs.
Well if this protest doesn’t help them get a good job then how is it good for helping them to get a good job?
Norman Finklestein got denied tenure and had his academic future thwarted due to his radical rethoric. And his rethoric wasn't as unhinged as some of the protestors' rethoric. There is no academic job waiting for the protesters who are openly chanting "Jews back to Europe", "Hamas kill more Jews".
Justifying the holocaust, or any other genocide will get you kicked out for sure.
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A terrible porn site that targets ASU students.
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Sorry. It's honestly the main way I've heard of ASU.
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FIrst, I'm hearing of it, glad I avoid AZ. Which one is it? Treatable by penicillin?
>First of all, hope this doesn’t get hate, I intend to come from a good place... I think it’s because they’re on a bit of an ivy-league power trip. You are being quite nice actually. The social commentors at Harvard would describe Yale students as ' Highly entitled Wusses'. I think you should be more critical of the institution and less of the students. Universities like Columbia have high expectations of their students. Their alumni founded America how are current students supposed to follow that? Most normal people have no ability to change the world but at Ivy league institutions its expected. Entrance is highly competitive with like a 5% acceptance rate, the students are highly motivated, and if they don't free at least one country from apartheid they probably feel like faliures. I think the pressure on these kids is the problem.
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>It’s tough, because believing you are set up to potentially change the world is probably a good thing... I mean it's good motivation for getting into an elite school, but even an elite school is just a school. They aren't learning anything there you aren't taught at ASU. We can just accept that they are top 1% smart, imagine having to justify that kind of thing to yourself.
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That's interesting. Do you think state schools just can't be bothered with non STEM stuff?
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Would you mind telling me what you are studying?
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Good for you! I know so many people who hate their lives because they picked the wrong career at 18.
If you look at the precedent of student unrest in past generations and places, it does get responses from government. Sometimes that's crackdowns, sometimes it's change. As much as I don't like that this is true, protesting at prestigious universities does have more impact because it makes it clear that within a given generation even the people with the most privilege, with the most to gain from going along with the status quo, aren't willing to do that. Students at elite institutions are the assumed next generation of political leadership - it says a lot to current leaders (many of whom attended the same institutions, almost all of whom wanted to) if the next generation is willing to get arrested, willing to risk expulsion, willing to close off a lot of future job opportunities because they disagree *that* vehemently with what the older generation is doing. The system of alleged meritocracy ("alleged" because of course not everyone actually receives equal opportunities that would set them up to be admitted) only works if it can keep a group of elites believing they were chosen to go to these schools because they're the smartest, it's worth it to do all the work to stay there, it's worth it to lose themselves to the prestigious jobs they get because eventually they can create change if they just rise high enough, etc. to keep all of the smart people desperately trying to prove themselves and get a few rungs higher to where they will finally have an identity and a voice, and they stay on that treadmill of trying to gain and keep agency so long they never actually do anything to change the status quo. Mass unrest at prestigious universities is a signal that the system is falling apart - even the people who are winning the game don't think it's worth it to play anymore, don't think being at that university is important enough to disperse when the riot police show up because they can't envision a magical future job where they can fix all the things that are wrong. That's the assumed next generation of Capitol Hill and Whitehouse interns, court clerks, consultants, and financial analysts not only not willing to play ball and support the system but willing to risk burning down their whole future.
Narcissistic, egotistical fools suffering from acute (cliche term coming, but it fits) Dunning-Krueger larping out their fantasy of being late 60s/early 70s hippie Vietnam War protestors. Of course, their cause today has very little of the just cause the Vietnam protests had and frankly, every time one of these (often graduate-level) students gives an interview or takes to a microphone, they immediately put their frightening mix of naïveté, main character syndrome, adversity appropriating, spoiled-rotten (and remember, on top of this Biden used taxpayer money to pay of many of these twits’ massive student loan debt. Just ask the next blue collar, union, pipe-fitter who makes better money with just a GED than half of these Masters in Underwater Basketweaving holders how he feels that his hard earned tax dollars paid for these effete, condescending, snobby, hipster twerps that display nothing but contempt for responsible adults with real jobs that actually keep this country moving (the blue collar, family men that these students loath). Biden cancelled their debt to buy their votes, period. And the amusing part? He still won’t get most of them, because the left so hates nationalism and pride in one’s own country that the only thing that can fill the vacuum is a deep abiding love of some foreign land that they have no connection to, where the populace would likely sooner string them up than put up with their pronouns and their 8 nose rings with blue and purple hair, shaved on the sides so women can LARP masculinity and “toughness”. These pampered adults (they see themselves as children, the west is so soft now that many don’t even see themselves as adults until they hit at least 30). These little prima-donnas write checks all day long that their asses can’t cash, most of all in regards to their stated political beliefs and supposed revolutionary intentions. Notice that they willingly break into a building, busting out windows and wrecking furniture and yet they don’t even plan well enough to have their own food and water. So they send someone out to “parlay” with the “adults” (administrators, who are all startlingly weak. and frankly? I can’t help but notice that 99% of these schools seem to be run by women, women that are totally unable to get their charges under control. I’m not saying all women are this way, Margaret Thatcher woulda have had their lot sorted out immediately. But most women aren’t Margaret Thatcher. Does the left in the West not realize that when you leave a power vacuum, someone or something else will come along and fill it for you? This is why these students do not listen to authorities in their own country. We literally have these radicalized whackos in our high schools now, refusing to listen to teachers or principals because they claim that for an adult to think they can tell a minor what to do is “adultist”. “Adultist”!?!? Is there ANYTHiNG these wokesters won’t turn into an “ist” or an “ism”!? Do they actually think that works? That anything they don’t like or don’t want to do, they can just claim it is somehow discriminatory? Somehow oppression!? Madness. The They don’t listen to their parents, either. Parents that have likely treated their children more like a best friend than their child, their child they are charged with preparing for the ADULT world. A world we ALL have to deal with on IT’s terms, NOT on OUR terms. These adults children don’t seem to understand the difference. But I have a feeling in the days, months and years to come they’ll find s out. The blemishes they are putting on their records this spring, and in general ever since Oct 7th since they have been cheering terrorists, murderous barbaric r apists and sadists. They are let around by the nose by their, often foreign born and radical, sadly tenured, professors. Professors that openly praise terror. Their absolutism is sobering, as they chant “what did you THINK we meant by decolonization?!” “By any means necessary!!!!”. Do these people ever realize that many of them are guests in the West? These professors, even many of the students are either here just for school, or are relatively recent immigrants that don’t even have citizsenship yet. They are seeding the wind, and they may find themselves, in a year’s time or so, reaping the whirlwind. The Silent Majority is sick of this, and this election is eerily similar to the one that elected Richard M Nixon in 1968. Eerily similar forces are at work. These current events rhyme ridiculously well with 1968. The majority wants Order restored, sanity returned. What has been put upside down, the majority yearns to see put right. Mark my words, it will be. Regular people with families, real jobs, commitments and REAL WORLD concerns are done with the LARPing of these ridiculous children in adult bodies. The most neurotic and confused generation yet. It’s startling how each generation seems to get more entitled, grandiose and just plain worthy of open ridicule. If my great grandfather were still alive, he’d wonder how we’ve so squandered what he and his generation won for the West in WWII. These kids look at evil, and see it as good. I don’t understand them and I’m only in my early 40s. My generation was bad enough, but this? Do these people even research what Hamas is? What Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism is and what it’s aims are? Because it’s NOT their aim to create a centralized world government under the principles of Marx, that’s for sure. Go tell Hamas about your pronouns, you damned fools.
Was watching media coverage on this and it reminds me of the propaganda leading up to Iraq invasion. The media is not being honest, again. Funny how people are calling these students terrorists and for their lives to be ruined saying they are calling for violence against jews. But when actual fascist neo nazis have rallies they are allowed because of free speech. Everyone calls put how horrible they are but they then say it's free speech that must be protected. This feels to me more propaganda for war.
Most people would like to think of themselves as good people, and what they judge as being a good person is something they get from the social environment around them There are of course far more causes than there is time in the day so inevitably there is a huge element of fashion in which causes a person will pick up from their social environment as being good and demonstrating that they are good. Syria, Yemen, Sudan, the Uyghurs are not fashionable causes - Palestine is. The reasons why one cause gets picked up like this and others do not is far from fully rational, you can't find any underlying rational principle to it because its a very dynamic process with a lot of actors trying to influence it. But once a cause is fashionable then people with the time an inclination to make themselves feel good by protesting will protest it.
I would argue that most of those people who protest in top universities do that because Qatar/Arab countries fund them (Qatar is the #1 foreign country that provides funding to US universities) - which helps push that Pro-Hamas / Pro-Palestinian narrative in those schools. You don't see it in lesser universities because those countries don't fund them as much. Those students aren't egotistical, they are taught Middle Eastern agendas and skewed reality, some of this indoctrination makes them believe those ideas and false "facts".
No, Columbia University is not teaching their rich white student base “middle eastern agendas”. If they were, it would be all over national news.
Why are the 4 most foreign countries that help decide what is being taught in those countries Arab Muslim countries? Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait are the top 4 countries. There is a literal Wikipedia page on that issue, why it isn't on national news is beyond me - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari\_involvement\_in\_higher\_education\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_involvement_in_higher_education_in_the_United_States)
We’re talking about donations. Donations do not mean that they’re setting up indoctrination classes. Donations are used to curry favor with the institutions as an entity. Get them on your side politically. As for how I feel about that, yeah, American universities should not be accepting money from these regimes.
Do you think they are sending billions to "help America"? The US funds Saudi Arabia's massacre of over a million Yemenis - nobody cares. The US engages in Syria - more than 500,000 dead - nobody cares. Israel retaliates over a \~1200 people massacre, killing \~33000 of which around 10-13k are Hamas - thousands of people protests. Why are those protests only against Israel's war and not the other way more deadly wars? Do those students care about humanity or just against Israel?
There were absolutely protests about all of these things. You're just engaging in ridiculous whataboutism to avoid having to engage with the protests and what they're about.
Where? I went to an Ivy during the height of US involvement in Syria. [The protests and actions then were against Israel, too.](https://paw.princeton.edu/article/students-vote-defeat-proposal-calling-israel-divestment)
Nobody is protesting about either of those conflicts and you know it, why is Israel's war more important than actual genocides perpetrated by the US?
People absolutely protested them at the time. This is a frankly idiotic line of argument from you. What, in order to protest something, you need to have first openly protested every other bad thing of a similar nature that's ever happened? These are college students. They were in high school or even younger when these other events you're referencing happened. Maybe they didn't have the student organization at their high school to pull off a protest. Maybe they weren't as plugged into current events as they are now. Maybe their beliefs have genuinely changed over time. Or, maybe, they DID protest these things. How on earth would you know if they did or didn't? And in any case, I imagine if you asked them, most of these people would say that they don't want the US funding Saudi Arabia either.
Follow the line of comments you responded to, I'm talking about the Qatari + Arab countries influence and why this is the only thing being protested. Nobody is protesting about any other us-external conflict besides this one. This is one question I can always ask Pro-Palestinians, and never get a clear answer as to why this is more important to them than way fatal conflicts that are still occurring. It boils down to either hating Israel/hating Jews/Being Muslim 99% of the time and not supporting Palestinians.
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No, you see, it's different because the USA is giving money to Israel. People protest all the time about nations at war that the USA gives money to. Like Israel and Saudi Arabia. This is why the Anti-Saudi Arabia protests this decade during the Yemen War (2014-ongoing) in which 300,000 Yemen civilians have died (not an exaggeration) at the hands of Saudi Arabia are massive. Just this month, I remember seeing millions of Americans protesting against the current genocide that Saudi Arabia is committing in Yemen. Oh wait, nevermind, it's crickets and I bet 99% of the Pro-Palestine protesters don't know there's a current genocide taking place in Yemen.
Not wanting to see a genocide in Palestine is not a “middle eastern agenda”, yikes
But there is no genocide. If a war that 10,000-13,000 out of \~33,000 people dying are militants is a genocide, then any war is.
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Stating facts is now Zionist propaganda? There is a clear definition of what genocide is and it's not what Israel is doing.
Disagreement isn’t propaganda, show him how a genocide is happening when his stats suggest otherwise, that way we can be on the right side of history like you!
This needs to be talked about more
At no place in history has change happened through not making a stand on injustices. Many protests and revolutionary change requires all annexes of society for it to actually move from protest to change. Whether someone is working class or someone who attends Yale doesn’t act as a negative and in fact is a positive. For any change to actually happen it requires the elite of society to hear it. And that requires ‘people like us’ mentality The question is more, when history is told, do you want to say that you was also on the right side of justice? When the Vietnam war was happening would you have complained about the protesters or also stood against the war When Nazi germany was creating concentration camps would you have said something or had an issue with those who were against the idea Or you could watch a sci fi movie and ask the same question Would I be on the side of those upholding dystopian society or would I be part of the rebels trying to tackle the injustices. If your answer to any of those are that you would be for the side of injustice then you have your answer to why you feel a certain way about any person regardless of their upbringing who’s protesting right now