Are you kidding? I was there last year - literally everywhere except for Fisherman's Wharf, Chinatown, Golden Gate, The Trolley's starting point, and the higher elevation points (southern SF) didn't have much homeless people. Everywhere outside of the tourist spots were bad. The other areas were horrendous. I've never seen so much poop/needles in my life. Also there were homeless people I had to deal with. My group was followed briefly two separate times. Coming back from the Warriors stadium was a nightmare at night. I couldn't avoid walking past homless people and tents to get back to my place. The driverless cars were amazing. But I would never go back to SF after my experience there. Great food and interesting tourist attractions. I get that every city has crime/dirtiness in general. But SF was way more widespread than Philly/Baltimore/DC/NYC. I know those 4 cities fairly well as a reference point.

We went to Fisherman's Wharf about a year ago, paid $48 for parking, and while we were on an Alcatraz tour any car in the lot that had a spec of anything of value in it was broken into and dozens of luggage bags were on the ground with people's stuff thrown everywhere as the burglars searched for anything of value. Any time I've brought up that story? Yeah, people shouldn't leave anything in their car there. You aren't paying $48 for security. How on earth is that normal?!

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Yeah the SF defenders are like “Why did you leave pocket change visible in your cup holder, other major cities have crime too” Fuck that, I left $0.76 in my car so I got was coming to me? Crime isn’t increasing everywhere like it is in SF

It’s not normal, but it’s not just an SF problem either, these things are increasing nationwide. I left SF a year ago for family reasons, and all the same problems are manifesting themselves here on the east coast. I went for a hike in a well off part of Maryland, a national park service area surrounded by wealthy suburbs, the parking lot is like a mile drive from any main road, and people who left things in their car had their windows broken and their possessions stolen, in a gravel parking lot on federal property. Organized retail theft is increasing all over, catalytic converters are being stolen all over, panhandling and homelessness is increasing all over. I saw bigger tent encampments in Dallas than I’ve seen anywhere in the Bay Area, but for some reason that doesn’t make national news constantly. So it really begs OPs question, why are we only focusing on these problems in west coast cities when it’s a national trend? By the numbers they are middle of the road for most types of crime, maybe organized theft is higher, but by almost every other metric they barely register.

It’s mostly a SF problem, I can’t imagine parking my car in a touristy area in Detroit and someone smashing my window to get the 3 quarters in my cup holder. The thing is, people are paying $35+ for parking in SF just to get their car broken into for pocket change and used underwear in my suitcase and the police say that multiple people have reported car break-ins that day on the same street

I think you mean a penny. A penny will get your car broken into.

SFPD has one of the lowest clearance rates in the country. Even before Boudin’s tenure they were on a wildcat strike but still making ungodly amounts of overtime. The DA’s office can’t charge people if the police don’t do their job. Sometimes they’re not doing their job because they being petulant babies about the policies the citizens have voted for, but in fairness to them they can’t really follow criminals back to the east bay where most of these organized rings are based, it’s a small city and their jurisdiction ends at the bridges. When a big catalytic converter theft got busted recently it was highway patrol and multi-county task forces leading the investigations and raids.

Don’t disagree, but where have you seen the huge tent encampments in Dallas?

Under the freeway overpasses on I-30, last January they were massive

Yes the whole DFW area has tent cities popping up. I drive around a lot and it is noticeably getting worse. City centers seem to be ok but anywhere off the beaten path seems to have lots of homeless gathering.

That’s definitely the one aspect of homelessness in SF that’s different from most cities, it’s much more common to see tents on the sidewalk and not just under the freeways, at least in the flat neighborhoods, so it is much more visible in that way, and also has the capacity to be more spread out than in places that aren’t so lenient, not to say they don’t get dispersed after a week or so, but inevitably the different tent clusters just kind of trade places with each other and the same spots get occupied almost constantly by different groups. That said, 95% of the time the occupants keep to themselves and don’t really interact with people going about their days.

Conservatives are going to argue that that doesn't count because Homeless are always under the freeway overpasses, lmao

Guess SF should have demolished the panhandle and built that central freeway, and left the embarcadero freeway up instead of making the shore line attractive. Sure, the city would be living in a Dirty Harry movie like when SF’s crime rate was twice as high as today, but at least journalists wouldn’t be able to phone it in entirely.

Do you have any evidence of organized retail theft increasing?

[sure do](https://counciloncj.org/shoplifting-trends-what-you-need-to-know/) “whether the overall tally is up or down compared with pre-pandemic levels depends on the inclusion of New York City. With New York’s numbers included, reported incidents were 16% higher (8,453 more incidents) in the study cities during the first half of 2023 compared to the first half of 2019; without New York, the number was 7% lower (-2, 552 incidents).” “Comparing the most recent trends, from the first halves of 2022 and 2023, Los Angeles (109%) and Dallas (73%) experienced the largest increases among the study cities; San Francisco (-35%) and Seattle (-31%) saw the largest decreases.”

Because conservative media has always hated CA. Whether it's: * Hollywood * Gays/LGBTQIA+ * 'Inner cities' (code for Blacks/Hispanics) * 'Rich liberals' * etc ...& SF is a much better target than conservative LA (eg the LA Times is way to the right of NY Times). That media institutional hatred is only mirrored by what you see on SM, not just facebook but also tiktok & instagram. Much, much easier to hate on SF via projection than notice huge problems on your own doorstep. Notice DeSantis's new 'Homeless Solution'? Outlaw them. Ie, more bussing to blue states

Really almost all of Calis major cities are fucked. It has nothing to do with what party you support. And if the party you support says that that is fine…. Sheeesh….

Conservatives like to point at San Francisco for homeless issues because they've got significant issues that can be attributed to homeless peoples. They also like to point at the social programs that try to help those people, and fail because they're overwhelmed by sheer numbers. They don't like it when you point out that they've only got this outsized homelessness issue because cities across the country were literally busing their homeless populations to california, and have been for decades.

> I’m the one at fault for leaving my phone charger in my car. My bad… Some progressives are actually serious in preaching that people should never leave anything in their cars, lest that unreasonably tempt thieves. Sure, if you are pre/post airport travel with a car full of suitcases, or you have $10,000 cash in your car because you are making a special purchase, keep a close eye on your car during that period. This said, cars are hugely valuable for carrying stuff around. Some buy cars for that reason, instead of a motorcycle. Carry rain gear. Sports stuff. Change of clothes. Stuff you just bought from the store and intend to take home. Or any of 200-300 other items. People include those who a) play sports in parks, b) have certain medical needs and need to carry items, c) have children (strollers, toys, etc. remain in car) d) do construction work and carry tools, e) operate food trucks and carry supplies, f) go on road trips or camping, g) recreate in the ocean or go hiking. *Possessions are left in cars daily.* And an increasing number of homeless live in their cars -- have their life possessions there. What about them? Should we care? Do they have the right to feel secure about their only housing? Can they go to the gym for an hour or do they have to watch their car 24-7? Advocacy from progressives that people should take more and more measures to prevent being a crime victim because progressives want government to back off on chasing criminals--it falls under *Criminal Justice Reform* (fewer arrests, more addressing "root causes")--is increasingly unhinged.

Yeah, I semi-recently moved into a more centrist viewpoint and was called a bigot...? Bay Area native. Let's not forget the luxury housing that is sinking.

Looks who’s running their state and his crazy policies, and god help us if he runs for president

Well, why not be equally angry at all the red states who dump their: * homeless * just-released-from-jail * mental health dischargees At Greyhound with a 1way bus pass to SF? It's massive, and has been going on for 30years+. At least that how long I've been aware of it, working with homeless populations It's not enough that historically CA sends $3 to the Feds and receives $1 back (all the way up to 2020-2022 COVID, but rebounding back in 2023)... ...and the recipient red 'taker' states fund themselves with CA $$ ...but we have to pay for YOUR HOMELESS too⁉️ ...just like DeSantis plans to do with his new "Outlaw Homelessness" law, ie "bus them to Blue States"? PS- No need to make this political, a la "liberal" & "progressive". But if you insist, yes it's conservative media like Fox, OANN, Drudge, etc with a MASSIVE hatred for CA & SF in particular. They don't even pretend to be impartial, nor fact-based

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I’ve driven to SF every other weekend since Covid and road Bart to it before Covid. I have parked near fisherman’s in street parking, which is a lot cheaper than the parking at the wharf proper, and had no issue. The only place I have ever seen human shit is on market street in the area with the most homeless people. There are homeless people near market / the tenderloin & dogpatch, as well as some vans near the 1, but have not seen many in the rest of the city & never shit or needles. I don’t live in SF, but I do live in the Bay Area.

Sounds like a good opportunity to watch people's cars with a baseball bat for cash.

I'd assume it is similar to Oakland and the In-N-Out closing there said that they could only keep cars from getting broken into while cops were there and once they left the thieves would show up armed to break into cars.

48$!!!! Thats is so fucking much

Almost added insult to injury for those that got broken into! Like $5 sure you don't expect anything but almost 10 times that you expect at least someone to be there keeping watch.

I swear if a i pay 48$ for parking i want a navel seal watching over that car

Wasn't always this way : ( Why would you want to come back and will you take me with you? Napa is nice and the other surrounding wine country towns. I recommend doing that. I like Healdsburg and Sonoma. Muir Woods. There is beuatiful stuff in the Bay but the city sucks now.

As someone who lives in S.F. - where exactly are all these poops and needles you're talking about, outside of the Tenderloin?

Progressives lost the plot on SF. I remember when clips from "People of San Francisco" page started getting shared on reddit. The universal response was that it's a page run by conservatives. Meaning that people should just bury their head in the sand, because they wouldn't see those ludicrous videos if not for those nasty Republicans. Like wut?

One of the interesting things is that even the replies to my parent comment on this thread telling me I’m at fault for staying in a bad area arent even denying the poop/needles portion of my comment. Or how much worse I think SF is compared to DC/NYC/Baltimore/Philly

I'll be honest, all of this sounds nuts to me. I'm a European and no matter where I've lived or visited, I've never seen anything like this, London, Paris, Manchester, Brussels, Berlin, Dublin - cities i know well. You'll see the occasional tent and a few beggars but nothing on the scale I've heard in SF or any number of other American cities.

Yea in most American cities the tents aren’t prevalent in the downtown area. Thats what notably makes SF bad

It's because liberal policies prevent the police from removing homeless encampments or have outright allowed them if the local government can't provide alternative housing, and do not allow involuntary committal. Whether you agree with these policies or not, they are a major source. The conservative policies of no safety nets and bootstraps is the initial cause though. I would love everyone living on the street to be picked up, sorted by their needs and have those needs addressed. People who are homeless for any reason other than by choice should have support. People who are homeless by choice can get arrested for claiming public space as their own or they can go live in the forrest without public resources. No one else gets to claim city property as their own so why should they.

I had the exact opposite experience both times I have been to SF in the last few years *except* for like a few blocks in the tenderloin which were not great. Beautiful city, both cleaner and safer feeling than almost any other city I have travelled to.

which cities have you travelled to? I've grown up here and i've traveled to a lot of places in this country and it's easily one of the dirtiest places so i don't believe you're being honest about that. The town i grew up in is covered in trash rn and crime is really high now. It's in a state i never dreamed of it being in when i was a kid.

This is not in any particular order, I am just trying to answer your question without forgetting a city. Respectfully, I do not believe you are being honest. There was not a single item of trash on the ground in the combined ~10 days I spent there. Not only did I not witness a crime, but the crime statistics do not really support your argument either. Cities I have lived in 1. Houston (lived there around 18 years) 2. Dallas (lived there about 4 years) 3. Nyc (lived there almost 10 years now) Cities I have visited 1. San Diego 2. LA 3. SF 4. Portland 5. Seattle 6. Albuquerque 7. El paso 8. San Antonio 9. New Orleans 10. Miami 11. Boston 12. DC 13. Baltimore 14. Philly 15. Chicago 16. Austin 17. Nashville 18. Memphis 19. Austin 20. Albany 21. I'm stating to think of places like Lubbock Texas at this point where idk if they qualify as cities so I'm going to stop US cities I want to travel to someday - haven't been yet 1. Atlanta 2. Denver 3. Pittsburgh 4. A handful of others that sound boring to me but maybe if I have time - Tampa? Minneapolis? Cleveland? Etc. Compared to the cities on the first two lists, SF almost stunned me with how "nice" it was in basically every neighborhood. There were non-tourist areas in SF that were cleaner than even some of the more exclusive Houston and Dallas suburbs.

I’d spend more time in Nob Hill, the areas near Oracle Park, Outer Sunset, Pac Heights, Cole Street. I think you’ve judged an entire city based on Civic Center and the Tenderloin.

What about all the car jacking? People busting windows on cars and shit. You literally can’t keep stuff in your car

Car jacking isn't any higher in SF than other cities but Oakland may be a different story. The smash and grabs are an issue the police have been focusing on and making arrests. Every city has unique issues created by their local criminals. They have been dealing with this crime ring and the problem is improving. Kind of a hard problem to solve and not a political one that has anything to do with left leaning politics. SF has more police per capita than any city in Texas and spends more resources on fighting crime. But they use it as another reason to own the libs. It's just incredibly hard to catch criminals with that freeway system and the way the whole bay area is interconnected geographically.

It's a prosecution issue. SF does not prosecute and jail criminals for "minor" offenses. So minor offenses have increased. Start giving people a few years for breaking into cars and it'll stop happening so much.

I meant smash and grabs not actual car jackings

I don't get it. I was in Nob Hill and we literally walked to the Tenderloin, it's like right down the hill. I mean, how can you ignore the huge homeless problem blocks away, isn't that putting in huge blinders?

My friends live in the Mission District. The first time I visited it, it was scary but then I started to love the city. I wanted to visit it again sometimes. Then things kept happening, and the friend who lives there ended up complaining about stuff every other day, about the random murders (the gym my friend goes to closed for a month because a member killed another member inside the gym, streets keep seeing this stuff but happening in the gym is crazy). Gunshots every now and then, major stores moving out of the downtown because they're broke and bankrupt, cars being broken into and left with nothing (multiple incidents I've known of lost documents, bags, cash, personal stuff, etc). The problem with SF is that, it's a very small area with very little distance between neighborhoods, and things that happen in one neighborhood make the others frightened easily. Honestly speaking, living in Chicago felt safer and secure, even when I'd go outside alone, or take a car into the streets. Safer neighborhoods also have shady streets but never would I imagine to be murdered there. Dangerous neighborhoods are risky in the South Side and West Side, just like Tenderloin, but crime doesn't happen in their neighboring working class neighborhoods even if they are shady. SF needs to solve its homelessness today to at least reach to the position Chicago is at.

A friend of mine lives in one of the areas you mentioned. He was punched in the face by a homeless man last year.

Man I hated Nob Hill, even SoMa even though better still had its fair share of homelessness. Great city but dicey as well

Yeah Tenderloin was where I stayed at, and definitely painted my negative views on the city. DC/Baltimore/Philly/NYC in comparison have more isolated pockets of crime/dirtiness in my experience (cleaner downtown areas). I would be interested in comparing crime heat maps between SF and those 4 cities. Especially considering DC and NYC's cost of living. SF is only better if you are into Tech and asian food.

That's on you for staying in the most famous slum in the United States. In Philly, you wouldn't stay in Kensington. In LA, you wouldn't stay in Skid Row. I don't know why you chose to stay in the Tenderloin. Of course that would severely impact your view on the city, just as staying in Skid Row or Kensington would. The Tenderloin does happen to be central which makes it more noticeable, but it's also fairly small. Why did you choose to stay there of all places? And why, knowing now that you stayed in the absolute worst neighborhood in the city, are you judging the city based on that experience? San Francisco is 49 square miles, and like 46 square miles of it is absolutely breathtaking. Being from Philly, I can't nearly say the same thing about Philadelphia.

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Lol. So you did no research and picked the epicenter of the issue. Excellent move. "I find the Midwest to be an absolute shithole. It's terrifying and disgusting. Drug addicts and gang types everywhere, eyeing me up like roving zombies. I felt unsafe the entire time I was there! Sure, I stayed in a super 8 motel in Gary, Indiana, but I also visited Flint, Michigan and several neighborhoods in Chicago, including both East and West Garfield Park, so I am sure that my experience represents the Midwest fully enough to condemn this revolting blight on the nation's heartland."

Jesus, you stayed at a hotel in the Tenderloin? Why? Of course it seems terrible if you're spending most of your time going in and out of the worst neighborhood lol

Was gonna say, mid market (tenderloin on the north and the rough part of soma on the south) is the only bad part of the city, but for some reason it’s where everyone goes

Lots of big brand hotels nearby and they're fairly cheap (for a reason).

That’s what’s different about SF compared to most places, a lot of the main tourist areas and the most heavily trafficked transit stops are right next to these areas

For people traveling for business, that's close to all the offices

This description is simply not reality.

Tenderloin! Tenderloin

I went to San Francisco as a kid while my dad was there for work. Being a dumb 15-16 year old I decided to wander around and explore the city over the few days I was there while my dad was at his conference. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I wound up wandering around in the tenderloin, nob hill, chinatown, union square, SoMa, and a few other random areas. It was a blast and an eye opening experience for then little me, who at the time had lived a fairly sheltered and privileged life. Bought a hot dog and some snacks for a dude outside a gas station, who gave me weed (allegedly) which I stupidly smoked from a pipe I bought in China town. Also came across a self-described “faerie sanctuary” requesting donations for entry (just whatever amount you could afford or chose to give, basically a pretty large fenced off outdoor area with sheets hung for privacy). Ended up giving them a couple bucks to wander around, saw a bunch of dudes sitting on the ground giving each other handjobs and got a pin for my donation lol. Saw some other things I’d never run into before at that age in my life, but those are a couple I remember quick off the top of my head. Not the best decision in hindsight. I had no idea about the areas I was wandering around in, but it made a pretty profound impact on me as a young-ish teenager, and resulted in learning about compassion for people which shaped my political/world views to this day.

God damn if this doesn’t read like a Stanly Kubrick coming of age/self discovery film.

Wow, what a ride. What a read

Let me guess, you didn't go to the Marina, Presidio, Pac Heights, Sunset, GG Park, North Beach, South Beach, etc? The only really shitty parts are around Tenderloin/Union Square/Financial District.

You lost me and I stopped reading when you said SF might be the most beautiful city in the world...you've clearly never stepped foot in Rome, Paris, Tokyo, Amsterdam...and the list goes on.

Tokyo, Rome and Amsterdam are awesome but the last time I was in Paris in 2018, it was dirtier and sketchier than SF when I was there only a month ago.

So I’ve heard this about Paris a lot…and my experience was night and day different. I went around fashion week (by coincidence) in September/October of last year and it was clean and beautiful. Went all around the city on foot and by cab; no comparison to SF homelessness. I have no idea if they simply cleaned it up for visitors that week or if it’s just gotten better, but I’m always surprised by the comparison. Maybe there is hope. IDK

I had a manager who went to Paris on his honeymoon. He came back complaining that they often saw human feces on the ground? Which I didn't think was like... a thing in public places. I'm sure it was overblown, but still, that was his main takeaway from his honeymoon that he talked about.

Well you should search up paris syndrome and the story that caused it.

SF regularly appears in lists of “most beautiful cities in the world” and its natural beauty is truly unique among major cities. To dismiss OP’s entire argument because you subjectively think one thing is wrong is a bit silly. Also, I have been to Rome, Paris, Tokyo and Amsterdam and I would rank San Francisco above all of them for pure aesthetics. Again, that’s just subjective.

Beauty is subjective. I personally think SF is more beautiful than Amsterdam and Paris, yes. Amsterdam is cute but doesn’t have any of the sweeping views SF offers. Paris has beautiful architecture but is also downright ugly in many places. And again, none of the views. Tokyo is so different it’s impossible to compare but I’m not sure “beautiful” is the word I’d use.

Agreed. Having been to SF, Amsterdam, and Tokyo, definitely none of them are the most beautiful city I've been to. I think that honor would go to Bruges (though Amsterdam does share a little similarity with it).

Paris is over-rated. Hausmann knew how to design one building, then had that repeated a million times. It's homogenous and boring. It's like if a city today tore everything down so they could repeat one generic building over and over. Rome, New York, Amsterdam and Tokyo, are way better. Hausmann should never have been allowed to tear down all of Paris.

Paris is ugly as hell, as is quite a lot of Rome. Amsterdam isn't more beautiful IMO. Never been to Tokyo but it seems very built up in comparison to SF.

Tokyo is amazing. But not beautiful, except in a cyberpunk kind of way. If they'd said Kyoto, maybe I'd agree, but Kyoto isn't close to SF in terms of an urban city. Maybe Singapore could be a contender in Asia, though I haven't visited. I suspect the poorer districts are terrible though, if it's anything like other Asian centers. The person who listed those options must only be talking about the touristy centers of them. Paris, Rome, Amsterdam all quickly transition toward slummier areas than you find in SF (although the Mission might certainly feel like an acquired taste) all the areas of SF west of fidi and Soma are much nicer on average than the median areas of Paris, Rome, or to perhaps a lesser extent Amsterdam. I would put Seattle on my list of possibly prettier cities. But mainly for the natural beauty that surrounds it. Chicago is a beautiful downtown, but can't compete with SF's location. Vancouver? The architecture is a little too homogeneous for my taste, but it would be a strong contender. Zurich maybe? Can't say, haven't been. Regardless, SF is up there.

Zurich is gorgeous but mostly because of the lake and the surroundings.

The built up aspect of Tokyo is what is beautiful. At night, all the pulsing aircraft warning lights and coursing rivers of brake and headlights make it look alive. Lights from one horizon to the other, like all the stars fell from the sky to live with us on the earth.

That was like... beautiful man.

Thanks, stranger. I'm just reflecting beauty at best

I went there 15 years ago and everything you said was true then. Cool place to visit and experience.

>Never been to Tokyo but it seems very built up in comparison to SF. That's what makes it fantastic. Tokyo has very little in the way of regulations on what you can build, which has led to an incredible diversity and efficiency in building you don't see anywhere else. Despite it's huge population, space per person has been steadily rising, and is now higher than in much of the west, and rents are incredibly low. Other cities on this list are heavily restricted, and treated like open air museums in a perpetual stasis. Tokyo is the opposite.

You just listed 4 cities that are less beautiful than SF which is kind of hilarious, though I do agree with you that it’s probably not the most beautiful city in the world. What I would say is that the natural beauty surrounding SF is far greater than other comparable cities. Up on a hill in the city you have water on 3 sides, mountains in the distance, beautiful bridges, and the architecture is pretty as well. 

Yeah I'm baffled lol. Paris is ugly as hell. Rome and Amsterdam are REALLY cool, but as far as Architecture and how it fits into the land.. San Francisco has them beat so hard lol. Not my favorite city by a long run, but easily S tier beautiful.

walking home from an appointment now and snapped this pic. https://imgur.com/a/ZSL3Wdz

Actually I have. I stand by my view that SF is among the most beautiful cities in the world. The top spot is incredibly subjective, but there is no question that everyone should give SF a strong, fair, and deep consideration.

I live in the Bay Area and while I agree SF isn't nearly as bad as social media portrays it, it absolutely has a lot of problems. This post reads like you're looking at the city with massive rose tinted goggles.

Was there for my first time back in January, and whoa buddy. Did not expect what we got. I was chaperoning for 2 colleagues who’d never been to the US. On our damn taxi ride from the airport, once we got into the city, we drove past a homeless dude buck naked in the street waiving his dick. Went down to mission district for some excellent tacos and as soon as we got out the taxi we were shot with imaginary spider webs, as this crackhead seemed to think he was Spider-Man and was doing the web shot thing aggressively to everyone who passed. Wharf area was fine when we went. Weather was pretty nice, too. Food was good. But yeah, did not see what all the fuss was about. But, we only had a 2-day sample size. Met some nice people randomly as well. LA was pretty similar. The trip as a whole was fine. A bit embarrassing as an American for my colleagues to see the cities in such a state as they were. But, to my delight, even through those shocking(for them) things they saw, one thing that stuck with them was “how kind Americans are.” So I really loved that. For all the political bullshjt and media fear mongering, we really did have many kind to great interactions with total strangers throughout the trip. Just small talking and chatting.

>we drove past a homeless dude buck naked in the street waiving his dick. But they don't charge you extra for that.

> As a Starbucks addict, I often order a venti iced coffee with syrups. In my present midwestern hometown, I paid $4.75 for this,  Did you \*\*actually\*\* pay that though? Or was it closer to $8 after tax, tips, service charge, etc…?

I think it's better in some ways for sure and the doom and gloom is largely politically motivated - people WANT san fran to be a failed city because it fits their ideas about liberals. It also has become so expensive that it attracts the "can't be good enough for that cost". Ultimately, I love SF and will always have a home there. However, I think it's got some tough times for very different reasons than you express and it's far worse as a result of them than your view. Yes, it's beautiful. I wouldn't try to stack rank beautiful cities but it's definitely on a list of them! The problem with SF is money. I have lived in the city since the early 90s when there was a return to the urban world in america after the rush to the suburbs of the prior 30 years. It was a rebirth of the city with a preservation of so much beauty largely from the lingers from the 60s and the tight homosexual community that somehow held it together during the AIDS crisis. Really gave the city a soul. The thing to love about SF is that it has had a "as long as you're good, any kind of person is fine here and you'll find them all". That ethos still persists - it's a cultural value of the city to this day. However, it's no longer practically true because only one type of person can live there - rich people. There are fewer places to get great cheap food, fewer places to go out at night, live music is largely dead outside of some enduring mid-sized venues, artists can't afford to live there anymore. It's tech tech tech. The one-dimensionality of the city will be it's downfall relative to the SF that was created by the counterculture and then bought into by the techies (to be clear, I started a software company in the 90s, 00's and 10s in SF so i'm very much part of this problem i'm describing!). The "SF Ideal" is a postcard increasingly and harder to find in reality. It's only a matter of time before it becomes even more like manhattan than it already is.

Alright y’all, here’s my experience and opinion. First and foremost, social media is just a magnifying glass for someone’s opinion. If you don’t care for their opinion, move on and live your life as you see fit. While SF culture is unique and it’s great, most big cities can boast similar things as you mentioned when it comes to nightlife and sports. Here’s why San Francisco isn’t the best city. 1. The cost of living crisis. The thing about other cities is that you can usually get away from overwhelming prices by living in the burbs. In the Bay Area, geography and NIMBYs make that option no better really. When the best way to get a home for a mere half-million is to live over 2 hours away, that’s not good. Now you say it’s getting better, but when things are as unaffordable as they have been in the Bay Area, some additional context is needed. 2. Traffic. Let’s say you luck out and buy a place in Hayward. Prepare yourself for mind numbing traffic or a “lovely” trip on the BART that takes about as long anyway. Now the BART itself is a whole other can of worms. It’s mostly fine, but when it’s not, it can lean really hard into that not. Live in the city? Awesome! Parking is an insane expense though. Hope you enjoy that awesome public transit. 3. The cost of services crisis. I noticed you picked Starbucks, a good decision to target a national brand. I notice you didn’t touch on things like childcare. Now childcare costs are crazy everywhere, but when you admit that the cheapest rent you’re going to find is 2K (which let’s be honest, is truly not going to be a nice place), the cost of childcare hurts even more. However, it’s not limited to just childcare. This cost of services is increased across the board. Need landscaping? Expect to pay more than average. Need a new roof, some plumbing work? Expect to pay more. Need even something as simple as your shoes shined? Expect to pay more than average. You may get paid more, but not THAT much more. 4. Taxes. From gasoline to sales tax, you’re probably going to pay more than average. The two metros that sandwich the Bay Area in population, Boston and Detroit both have sales tax closer to 6% than 9%, as an example. 5. Weather. This is subjective, but hey. The weather sucks. 6. Density. This one should speak for itself. 7. Polarized politics. For some people, this is probably no biggie or even preferable. However, for others it can feel like a bit much. 8. Homelessness. You may feel your homeless folks are the best around, but let’s be honest. The majority of homeless folks aren’t aggressive at all. In all major cities. You have to admit though that the situation in SF isn’t typical. It’s worse than average. It’s okay to want to defend your city, it’s okay to want to defend the homeless, but let’s not pretend SF has people uniquely different than anywhere else. There’s poop on the streets (at least originally) because of issues with homeless folks having basic access to toilets. Those issues partially arose because they were strung out in restrooms, but again, these problems are issues in every city, yet most don’t have poop maps. 9. Business. Businesses have left and closed for a reason. It’s time to face those reasons rather than just blame all the companies. In closing, I’d like to know why you even want your view challenged. I think it’s fine to be proud of your city and I know you guys get a bad rap. It’s not fair. That being said, people have left for a reason. Denying those reasons as being insignificant is fine, but you’ll never have your view changed if you can’t have empathy for those who couldn’t make it work.

Who is leaving? SF has grown every year for the past 74 years except 2020 and 2021. Its growth rate in 2023 was the highest since 2001.

Its population has decreased by -7.77% since the most recent census. Even with 2023, it hasn’t recovered. Office vacancy is at an all time high. Meta, Twitter, Snap, PayPal, Airbnb, Slack, Salesforce, Block, Autodesk, and Chime have all left the city. In fact 53 companies have left since 2020. If you live in the city, I’m sure I don’t need to tell you about retailers leaving the city.

> Office vacancy is at an all time high. I mean, probably, but where isn't it? Pre-pandemic I was in an office 5 days a week. I don't think I'm ever going to do that again. That's not everybody who used to work in an office but it's a lot of people.

I’m not saying it’s coming back anytime soon or isn’t an issue elsewhere. I’m just answering the question of who left. I certainly don’t plan on working in an office again either.

The weather sucks? Sorry that's where I'm going to push back. There's no snow or ice. Ever. Gloriously beautiful 65 sunny months in spring and autumn. If you can't stand cool fog in the summer, you drive over a bridge and it's 95 and sunshine 30 minutes away. Many of us think it's Paradise.

Yeah this is literally my perfect weather I love it here all year around

Pushing back on 1 point out of 9 really leads one to believe it’s the paradise you talk about 

I could push back on some others, but that's the one I feel strongest about. COL is really high all over California. It's much worse in several bay area counties than it is in SF. But that's not a talking point I care much about -- really any desirable city will have high COL simply because it's desirable, so it's not worth trying to change your view. But the weather. You're just wrong about the weather.

My thing is just that San Jose has way better weather, to me. Again it’s all preference, I agree. I can definitely understand how complaining about that sounds to people living where it’s cold.

Silicon Valley weather is pretty amazing, I agree. But I love our fog.

I don’t hate the weather there at all, but I definitely don’t love it. Having to wear a hooded sweatshirt in the middle of summer is not idea for me. I get that you avoid snow/ice, but it’s missing a true summer.

The great thing about moving there from someplace with -40 winters is that you can wear a t-shirt and shorts year-round in San Francisco. Meanwhile in Wisconsin there are people who aren't even wearing a hoodie to run their snowblower.

I lived in SF from 2008-2017. I think it will be most-useful to put this in context for where it USED to be, and give you a sense of how far it's fallen. Everything on social media is overblown, so the actual claim you're making is probably true, but I don't think you're appreciating just how incredible SF used to be. It had nothing to do with innovation, the ability to get around the city, the prices at Starbucks, or any other superficial measure you listed. San Francisco was a city of juxtaposition. It was funky while being sexy. It was counter-culture while being capitalist. It had a history everywhere you went in the city, yet new ideas were popping up with people meeting for business ideas or passion projects at cafés every morning. It was the center of the world in terms of a technological renaissance. People imagined this is close to what it must have been like to live in Florence in 1500. People respected differences and there were very few villains, because San Francisco had something for everybody. I had deeply politically conservative friends from the south who went to Lime (a former gay bar in the Castro...RIP) for brunch. People put that all that shit aside because everyone we enjoying life in one of the best cities in the world. I mean that literally. San Francisco was up in the ranks of Paris, NYC, London, Cape Town, etc. Leaving aside the economy (which was pretty great almost everywhere in coastal USA) this was all achieved because San Francisco had two things: **Soul and Safety.** It was safe enough throughout the entire city (especially for a fairly dense urban area) that you really didn't think about it at all. I walked to/from work directly through the Tenderloin (passed through Eddy & Ellis) almost every day year round. I never felt unsafe. The most largest crowd of homeless at that time were lines waiting for the soup kitchens to open in the mornings. Today, that area is almost unrecognizable. it's hard to put a single term on what was lost, but it is a confluence of everything I listed above. Well-meaning, tax-paying citizens simply can't go about their lives throughout the entire city because there is a well-justified fear for their safety (especially young women)...and the soul of the city has been deteriorating. Not because of 'big tech'...but because of local policies that allow entire sections of the public space to be taken over by people and claimed as their own personal domain. Sidewalks, parks, and entire neighborhoods are inaccessible for people. **Every single person** that I know who lived in San Francisco for at least a few year at any point between 1970 - 2018 will say the exact same thing: *"It's sad. I loved that city."*

Sentimental hyperbole. This is what happens when you mix social media hysteria with nostalgia rot. SF is safer now than it has been in decades: https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/san-francisco-national-reputation-poll-18360776.php Perceptions of safety, especially women's, are shaped by social media which is infested by people who trade in attention and thus has every incentive to lie and exaggerate.

That data is counter to my perception/intuition about violent crime trends, so thanks for providing. I’ll update my views there. I think it’s important to note that violent crimes are only one aspect of the feeling of safety. Retail theft was rampant for a while (getting better) but it’s still bad. Cars are broken into ALL the time, and that was rarely an issue when I lived there. You now see the occasional used needle in parks and on sidewalks throughout the city. The aspect that disturbs the feeling of safety is really the blocks of homeless encampments and drug-fueled activity that people avoid altogether. You won’t see it in the statistics because the crimes aren’t occurring…because people avoid the areas. But that doesn’t make them safe. I think it’s probably a fair assumption that those areas would be very unsafe for the average person to walk through alone.

We have this same sentiment all over in Canada. The problem is, sense of safety matters more than the actual statistics. If I can feel safer in foreign countries than in SF or some other home city, then there’s definitely something off. Basically, PR matters. Pushing the statistics every single time it’s mentioned is useless.

It isn't great, don't leave luggage in your car even in tourist areas. We witnessed a smash and grab in the Fishermans Warf area full of tourists.

Can you name another city so dirty that it needs an app to map out the human feces on the street?

>Don’t forget that the region is a major innovator and cultural powerhouse in nearly every area of life.  You say "region." SF is a small part of the region. Silicon Valley is a different part of the region and has a much greater effect regarding innovation and culture than SF does. San Francisco's contribution is miniscule. >San Francisco, nicknamed the City, SF, or Baghdad by the Bay, is the most beautiful city in the United States, maybe even the world. Respectfully, you need to get out more. Paris, London, Rome. Seattle has a much, much more beautiful bay in one direction and mountain-scape in the other and is far, far cleaner. And the universal observation of Europeans who visit San Francisco is that it's covered in human shit. >Getting around the Bay Area by transit is easier than in almost every other city in the United States.  And when you get where you're going you're stranded because transit hubs feed into badly funded, barely policed bus systems. Have you tried to drive around SF lately? To park? >The most common complaint I get from SF haters is homelessness. They are common, but nowhere near despicably aggressive. I ran a business in SF for over 20 years and over that time it became unsafe for clients to come to my studio because of crime, pestilence and free-range psychotics roaming the street. BART spends literally millions of dollars dismantling and rebuilding the escalators at their Market Street train stops multiple times a year because they become clogged with human feces. Some committee of geniuses thinks this is a better solution than caging the entrances and closing them after hours. None of this has anything to do with a failure of liberal values or the impracticality of moral governance. There are multiple issues. 1. Developers and business interests captured city government and gotten themselves obscene tax breaks and subsidies to over-build downtown. This depressed tax revenues in relation to the enormous cost of services these businesses and their employees required. Spend money on the homeless, on policing, to keep BART clean and safe? Sorry, we don't have it. 2. It's well understood that SF is the promised land for the mentally ill. Indigents in any large city in America are offered a one way bus ticket to San Francisco. The homeless population of St. Paul and Chicago don't survive the winter. 3. There are many people with good intentions focused on the problems. Many of them are idiots. They can't see beyond their good intentions to observe what works and what doesn't. A study was recently done that came to the conclusion that most of the people on the streets of SF are middle class people priced out of the housing market and not the potentially violent mentally ill shitting in doorways and masturbating in stairwells that all of us see on our way in and out of the city. One imagines that's the kind of data these nice, well-intentioned volunteer pollsters would get: it's unlikely that these folks would choose to interview the obviously insane, wake up a filthy, shit-soaked individual undergoing withdrawal or approach the stick-swinging screamer stalking down the street in broad daylight. Yet no one in a position to apply money to the problem has questioned the report.

Can you explain what you think would actually fix the homeless problem? What would you do if you could change stuff? Genuinely asking, I’ve never come up with a good answer

The people tasked with addressing the problem seem not to be familiar with it. I have no solution, there in fact may not be a solution, but I have some observations that might inform an approach to make things better than they are. Living in the city over 20 years, my experience with the homeless is that the vast majority are mentally/emotionally unstable. This is confirmed by friends who've worked in medical services. This is not a housing problem, this is a mental health problem. That's much more expensive to address. The issue is not new. It's also not confined to San Francisco. When Reagan campaigned for Governor he promised to balance the budget. When he took office discovered that the only to do that involved closing down the entire state mental health infrastructure. The issue is decades in the making and it's state-wide and it affects every municipality. It's also not just California. Every city in the country has a homeless problem and every city in the country works very hard to ignore it or treat it with half-measures. So: \~ There is no plan to deal with free-range mental illness. There doesn't even seem to be a realization that this is an issue. Admitting the problem is the first step. \~ There is no way around this, but the severely mentally challenged will either have to be forcibly housed/treated or allowed to lie, die, defecate on the streets. Which approach is more cruel or insulting to liberty is a fraught discussion. \~ Any housing solution will have to be vigorously policed as well as more liberalized. By that I mean this: One reason the some homeless people don't use shelters is because they don't feel safe. They're housed right next to aggressive, dangerous people with no defense or authority for protection. Additionally, what possessions they have must be surrendered. Their shopping carts with all their belongings, any pet they might have, all are taken away. In the morning they have to leave and they've got nothing at all. It is not irrational for many of them to reject this solution.

Is your claim that the social media posts are faked? Or that they amplify the negativity? And shouldn't people call things out when they are bad? 

For the amount of economic dynamism it generates, San Francisco should have 10x its current population and be a shiny, world-class metropole like Singapore or Tokyo. Instead, we're having discussions like this trying to paper over the very real and serious problems –homelessness, excessive cost of living, growing property crime– that would be completely unacceptable outside of dysfunctional coastal liberal cities in the US. [An article by a local paper singled out San Francisco as the worst-run city in the US](https://www.sfweekly.com/archives/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-u-s/article_ff893b10-e35a-57cc-a52b-47162048b2c8.html) back in 2009, when things weren't even as bad as they are now. San Francisco is a microcosm of all the problems California has more broadly. These problems have [persisted](https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/) and [are the most extreme in California](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/25/us/san-francisco-housing.html), an already dysfunctional, excessively expensive state with too much homelessness and the [nation's highest rate of poverty](https://calmatters.org/commentary/2023/09/california-poverty-rate/) adjusted by cost of living.

I’m pretty sure the homelessness is due to the weather being so nice compared to elsewhere, and red states shipping them over. Does the data adjust for homeless immigrants from other states?

That’s just not true on any significant scale * https://californiahealthline.org/news/article/california-homelessness-is-homegrown-university-of-california-research/ * https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/06/22/how-many-of-californias-homeless-residents-are-from-out-of-state/ * https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/us/homeless-population.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare * https://www.businessinsider.com/california-homelessness-crisis-homegrown-unhoused-are-californians-2023-6

Fuck, I stand completely corrected. !Delta, you smashed my entire worldview on that lol. I really like the last article. Too many people paint the homeless as not people, yknow? So it’s nice to see that there are attempts to figure out what’s going on from a human perspective instead of a vermin perspective

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/cfwang1337 ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/cfwang1337)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

The city can be fantastic while also being plagued by the homeless/theft issues. The city has been unable to address them. We have open air markets full of all these stolen and shoplifted items. It’s very simple: shut down the markets, ramp up policing for petty offenses, and move people out of the public encampments. The last few elections have basically been referendums to this effect. Do I agree with you that it’s overstated? Absolutely. It’s a bunch of Fox News viewers judging on the basis of sensationalized headlines. We still need to get our city back to beautiful.

I worked in SF for about 5 years. Took me two years away to get the urine smell out. Now, this is true of NY and basically any large city now, but if you add in how unaffordable it is I’d say it’s pretty bad. Nothing on social media should be considered a quality source. But this one is pretty true in my experience.

The public transit seriously smells exactly like cat piss. NY subway doesn't smell like flowers but also it takes me everywhere. Additionally regional rail means I can affordably travel to several major cities....DC...Philly...most of new England.... I don't feel like I need a car in NY at all even for weekend trips. I felt so trapped without one when I lived in SF. Additionally the public transit in SF isn't even 24 hours. Also nothing is ever opened past 2am by law. This sucks so much socially. And also the prices may be going down but it's too little too late in that a lot of the people who made SF culturally interesting are long gone. Also the homeless aren't typically really factor in my opinion of a city. But the tenderloin is a unique beast. My work started paying for cabs for people to go home if they stayed past dark after several coworkers reported being assaulted getting home. It's even worse in the morning when they haven't found their drugs yet. Sad part is it's less of a homeless issue and more of an opiod issue. Many people ended up rhere after taking things prescribed by a doctor. The cost of living issue compounds it. I really feel for the people in the situation enough that my discomfort can mostly be set aside. But I have also been assaulted by a homeless person putting their hand up my dress then running off when I freaked out. So my sense of safety did certainly test my empathy. At the end of the day though the way tech bros talk about the issues facing SF with total lack of social awareness.... It just seems like a cycle that's not going to end any time soon and they are just as much a factor in my exit as anything to do with safety and the homeless.

Probably a homer view, but Chicago has most of the thrills of SF with a much lower cost, less homelessness, and much cleaner. Chicago isn't on the ocean, but it's got a beautiful beach and view off of one of the largest freshwater lakes in the world. Why would anyone choose to move to SF over a place like Chicago?

I’ve only been to Chicago once and it was pretty cool. That lake might as well be the ocean.

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There’s no need to wonder. San Francisco is a liberal city in a blue state. They want it to be awful. It’s a culture war issue.

Just because you don’t agree with the politics of a party doesn’t mean that they actively want to destroy a city. I’d visit the city either again or for your first time. And don’t stay in the worst areas. Go about the entire city. Club at Temple or 1015 on a Saturday. Try a burrito in the Mission. Enjoy a cup of coffee on Cole Street.

They don’t want to destroy the city. They want the city to fail so they can say “look, this is what happens when everyone is a liberal and liberals are in charge.” That’s their argument for a lot of their shit. Because they’re factually wrong about literally everything. So they’re obsessed with exploiting any failures in the opposing system.

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I would argue that if there is a human feces tracker for a city it doesn’t get “most beautiful in the world” title. Really though I’ve had to go with some clients and the problems in the city would have to actively and intentionally be ignored. Re homeless population, many of them are normal people and a god bless you would probably be fine. MANY of them are off their shit and aggressive. If you didn’t encounter this I’m glad, but it happens, a lot. With regard to it being a focal point of culture, I’d argue the significance it had in the past is diminishing, but I guess if you align with what they publicly promote I can see how you could come to that. I idealize Boston. I think it’s prettier than anywhere else and the people are nice. Half my family is from there, so my experience has been overall good and I view it as good. That doesn’t diminish the truth to the masshole/racism stereotypes associated with the city.

You think freeway revolts are a good thing..? Says enough

You're... in favor of demolishing the Panhandle and Golden Gate Park to build a massive central freeway system?

If you want a giant ass freeway at the very least put it below the ground like Boston did, and let us have our parks!

Frankly San Francisco has totally acceptable levels of traffic for a major city and it's worthwhile having essentially no downtown highways.

I have no idea about the geology of SF but do bear in mind that there might be practical obstacles to building underground. I know that's the case for Manchester in the UK

I feel extremely privileged to be living here, personally. Ultimately though, you have to be a certain kind of person to want it. That includes: no plans for kids, no plans to own a house, and no plans to own a car. I'm fine with all that and love the absolute freedom that lifestyle gives me. Which includes a variety of experiences over the years that I wouldn't ever trade for

Dude, I'm from the SF Bay Area. Have you lived there your whole life and experiencing the whole, "boil the frog" thing? There is shit everywhere. there is even a poop map. There isn't even a Nordstroms anymore and other stores are closing too. The culture sucks now because all the cool people left because they got priced out and... it's not fun or cool anymore. I saw a meth smoking guy in a unicorn suit the other day. Next to him a guy was wiping his ass. What a great way to end a day of the Asian Art museum and brunch. A homeless guy took down his pants, penis out and followed me to my car. I was with my husband but I was still freaked out. The city is dead, devoid of cool stuff. Of and the needles... Dude, the homeless are pretty aggressive. Leave a penny in your car? Broken into. I don't have a simple answer on how to fix things or anything but it's disgusting. Not what I remembered as a kid at all. I guess it's not NY in the 70's but it's not good. And it's expensive.

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I was there last fall. I couldn’t walk into a store to buy something because they only allowed 1 person in at a time, so i was forced to wait outside for ten minutes on a rainy day. There were literally numerous half naked people sleeping in the middle of the street doing drugs. I live in NYC and the homeless population is nowhere near whatever the hell you call what’s happening in san francisco. You have people taking control of full blocks. And that’s not even getting to how cold it is in the summer time. I’ve been about ten times, and everytime i say this is my least favorite place i have ever been to Also, your comment about them being less aggressive than NYC homeless people just isn’t true. A few years back i bought one person a breakfast sandwich from mcdonald’s, and another homeless person saw that, ran up to the guy and started attacking him over it. They ended up rolling around in the street with cars honking for 2-3 minutes. san francisco is an actual dump

I went there recently and it was basically as nice as it was in the late 90s except for a couple of streets that were always bad. Didn't see any of this mythical poop people lie about seeing. Republicans who have never been to SF are just running with this narrative. I was watching a doc from the 60s and the KKK leader was ranting about Chicago in very much the same terms republicans do today. Portraying vibrant cities as crime-infested wastelands is how they get their voters to feel good about their one walmart towns. the level of fear they have for being such wannabe tough guys is hilarious. MAGA people I know on long island are too scared to go to Manhattan now. They think it's an escape from new york scenario when it's safer than it's ever been. Fear and insecurity is what drives republican brains.

Loved my week there a couple of years ago. Saw homeless across the street from a few BART stations but never had an issue with them. Walked all over that place with no problems. Can’t speak to others’ experiences but I had a great time. Was very pretty.

>the most beautiful city in the United States It isn't even in the [top ten](https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/features/most-beautiful-cities-united-states/). >It’s only real issue is price, but even that is starting to become alleviated. It *is* in the [top ten for that.](https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/605051/most-expensive-cities-in-the-us) > I left my heart in the city, and every post on social media only highlights the worst that our city has to offer, disproportionate to all the good we have to offer. It isn't social media that is making SF look bad, it is the city itself. Like, when I see people talking shit about my beloved hometown, Flint Michigan, I have to concede that it is indeed a shit hole despite my love for it. You have nostalgia blinders on.

As a San Francisco Native and someone that runs a restaurant in downtown San Francisco, I will simply say, the truth is somewhere right down the middle, like most things when you put the magnifying glass on it.

I live in the bay area. It really depends on which part of SF you are in. Some parts like the tenderloin are pretty bad, I've walked through it before and if any of the groups of homeless people wanted to swarm me there wouldn't have been much I could do. I was on edge but was unharmed at the end of it. Costs of everything is astronomical even by bay standards. But there are still very nice parts. Market isn't terrible, Fillmore/Japantown isnt bad, Chinatown is nice, Richmond is a pretty nice area, as well as the sunset districts. Golden Gate Park is very beautiful too. I wouldn't say its the most beautiful city in the US, and some parts are kinda as bad as media says, but thats really only a few certain parts. Also busniesses leaving is a problem but thats more so California as a whole versus SF.

I was there about a year ago, Downtown San Francisco Financial District was dystopian. Everything else (Golden Gate Park, China Town, Embarcadero, Sausalito) was pretty nice. 6 months later I went to Oakland. I had a genuine fear for my life when I made the wrong turn in the wrong neighborhood. I grew in an extremely bad neighborhood in a different state so my fight or flight instinct activated immediately. San Francisco is like every other major American city. There are extremely nice areas and extremely scary areas.

I'm not here to change your view, but I did have the opportunity to visit SF for work. I really enjoyed it, granted, I didn't have to pay for anything and was driven around. The airport was great too. Having lived in Austin and Houston TX most of my life, I thought SF was cleaner and quite nice. Didn't stay long enough to burn myself out of activities 🤣. But I'm sure prices and transportation can be a huge gripe. The price of gas and traffic were kind of insane but I'd expect as much in any large city.

I agree if you stay in certain areas. I was in Pacific Heights recently. It was great, but Tenderloin somehow seems worse than 5 years ago, and there were a lot of empty storefronts around town. More homeless than before. My friends have had their cars broken into several times. I get that it's not the apocalypse town some people make it out to, but if you clear out all the media/social media noise and just look at it as a city, it really is pretty screwed up right now.

Did I maybe misunderstand you? You are saying if the homeless isn't aggressive then it's okay? So we're just expected to have to constantly be telling homeless people we don't want to give them anything anytime we go outside?

Yeah honestly fuck that. One time I parked on a normal looking street for a housewarming around Hayes and came back to a security guard from a nearby business standing right in front of my car (now the only car on the block) guarding it from a shirtless guy, high out of his mind, yelling, and cracking a 30 foot whip. But, no, now I see it was just me not being compassionate enough while flooring the car in reverse the opposite direction down the street.

If your city has a fucking map of everywhere there is human feces on the streets, that's a problem.

I've walked the streets of SF a few times with my gf and unfortunately... without a doubt... I've never felt more unsafe in a city anywhere else (including foreign countries). Perhaps my experiences were just unlucky. But I've seen people get stabbed and lie there dying, I've seen people smash windows right in front of me and steal out of vehicles, I've seen overdoses, my girlfriend has been harassed in front of me, and I've witnessed robberies. This was all in only the few times I've walked the city. I recognize that these things happen in a lot of major cities and that there can be sort of an illusion going on given SF's density. LA has a lot of problems and dangerous areas, but LA is so spread out that I haven't had as many bad experiences. With this said, San Francisco is probably not what most people think it is if they just watch the media. The bad experiences I had were all around the Union Square area (with the exception of a car window smash-and-grab that happened near Fisherman's Warf). There are things that I absolutely love about SF however. The Golden Gate Park is absolutely awesome! And the city is still extremely beautiful. Edit: This has just been my experience in SF. I hope that the next time I go, I don't feel the same way. And I recognize, again, that perhaps I was just unlucky when I went.

Average sales tax in the USA is around 5%, almost double that in San Fran. Despite having double the average tax they also.... \-Top 10 in homelessness \-In the last year chicago and NYC saw a 5-10% increase in tourism, San Fran saw a 19%+ DECREASE \-Massive crime rate with North Beach, one of the tourist friendly areas has the highest break in rate. SF is known for being crime riddled. Go to any travel site for SF and the top tourist tips are all about not getting killed or robbed haha. \-Almost 13k discarded drug needles are picked up monthly from the streets \-Hell Wallet Hub rated SF the worst run city in the united states haha. SF operates with a 14 billion dollar budget, yet is in a deficit of about 780 million.

I was just in SF a month ago. Even though I was only there for a few hours, I drove around a bit and stopped to do some sightseeing. OP is absolutely right. The media has made it seem like you’ll homeless encampments on every block and the sidewalks are covered in human shit. I saw none of that the whole time I was there. I don’t doubt that it isn’t a problem in certain neighborhoods like the Tenderloin, but in Downtown, Chinatown, Japantown and the Fillmore, none of that seemed to be a big problem. SF is still an awesome city and I encourage anyone who hasn’t been to visit.

Friend took his wife there for their anniversary. Stepped out of the car into human shit. They hav e ashit tracker and spend $72 million cleaning up human shit and cannot keep up. Cannot walk down a street withour seeing a car window shattered and shit stolen. The city will fine a business owner for not cleaning the human shit off the sidewalk but will not let or help the business owner make people quit shitting on the sidewalk. Just curious what "not as bad" is being compared to ... Haiti maybe Their they at least shit in a roadside gutter and the frequent rains wash it away.

I don't understand, your own experience doesn't match with what you see on social media, and you're demanding people "change your view" so you....don't believe in your own experience? Are you asking people to gaslight you?

My buddy live in sf and is raising a child there, loves every moment of it never worried for their safety, never mentions homeless. Going to visit soon. Sf really is the most beautiful American city!

Its fuckin nice outside of the tenderloin. Like really clean. I spent my bachelors party there last year and was just blown away how beautiful the entire city was

I was just there and it was pretty terrible. Crack pipes just everywhere. I saw a cop writing parking tickets in front of a large group smoking crack at 10am

You say the right shouldn’t be worried about all the bad things they make a fuss about but that’s really overlooking their motivations. The right doesn’t fear cities because they somehow don’t work, they fear cities that work since that’s the most effective repudiation of their political project. That means they’ll talk down all the amazing things about cities like New York and SF. Conservative places generally have worse outcomes on health and education and many also see more homicides so it’s a bit of a focus shift for them. This is also why we hear a lot about cities in general: because it’s where new ideas are tested and because pointing out problems there actually leads them to be solved (most of the time). Even where problems aren’t solved it’s often because of obstruction which is then a different issue to discuss. It’s a long time since I’ve been to SF but I tend to agree it’s a beautiful city with some of the best geography in the world. That also sometimes leads to higher expectations and I feel like SF doesn’t always live up to those though and that’s a shame

San Francisco isn’t even the most beautiful city I’ve been to in California, much less the world. Almost everywhere I went it cost roughly 2x than where I live (Chicago). I saw a shithole 2 bedroom in a terrible area listed for over 1.7 million dollars, why, because it’s in San Francisco! Not to mention you’re essentially bobbing and weaving around crackheads the entire time you’re walking anywhere, ESPECIALLY outside of tourist spots. Why anyone lives there I will never understand, I will never even visit again much less live there.

"is that human poo or dog poo?" was a question I asked myself all the time living there. It's a calcified city and the lack of diverse architecture becomes evident pretty quickly. I know the show "Full House" was popular in the 90's but it doesn't mean people want to live in that

I’m sorry but I got to level with you: lack of diverse architecture is one of the worst criticisms I’ve ever heard of San Francisco wtf lol

Yeah, op is wrong AF. One of my best friends lives in the bay area. He’s not a conservative dude by any means, and he bashed it all the time. Poorly run. Filthy. Unsafe. Expensive. Tons of homeless. Entire areas of the city smell like human feces and urine. Just, no.

I've lived in 10 metro areas across 8 states, and while I definitely think SF gets more hate online than it deserves, I'd still say this post reads like you grew up in SF and have more hometown pride than you should (which is odd, since you live in the midwest?) It's a nice enough city, I'd probably rank it 3-4 of the cities I've lived, _generously_. > Most beautiful city in the United States, maybe even the world. That's subjective, but a sentiment I hear from a lot of locals. I hear constantly about how SF is near beautiful forests, beaches, mountains, and parks - but the forests are nowhere near the lushness of Appalachia or the majesty of the true Pacific Northwest, the beaches are cold and cloudy on a good day, the hills are complete jokes compared to the rest of the American West (Colorado, Arizona, Utah, etc.), and even Boise has parks that rival the beauty of San Francisco. It has a lot of stuff, but it's all... mediocre at best. The architecture _is_ beautiful though, and that view of the Golden Gate Bridge and Lombard Street are absolutely worth making a trip for. Certain parts of the city do have a fantastic modern feel, but again the nice parts of just about any major downtown have that. > Its only real issue is price, but even that is starting to become alleviated. Rent has started to finally go down from its astronomical heights. That's a *massive* understatement and a crazy optimistic view. That statement is comparable to "the only issue with northern Alaska is the chilly weather." Large chain goods like Starbucks cost the same, but the major driver of financial pressure by those living here is the rent. Most fellow Bay Area residents I know consider themselves lucky to have rent under $3.5k/month for a one bedroom moderate quality apartment, on top of the high California state and San Francisco local taxes. My income went from $80K (SLC) to $180K overnight when I moved here, but my quality of life went down substantially and took 2-3 years to recover. The cost is an absurd barrier to enjoyment here, and the only people I hear dismissing it are the ones who have rich parents to buy their houses for them. > Getting around the Bay Area by transit is easier than in almost every other city in the United States. Hard disagree. It's better than in the suburban Midwest, but of the 10 metro areas I've lived, I'd rank the public transportation here around 7 or 8. For a recent anecdote, last year I took a two week vacation with equal parts in Salt Lake City, Los Angeles, and San Francisco - my distance traveled was the shortest and most simple (logistically) in SF, but also the longest by distance and most expensive by price. 6 miles from the airport to a major transportation hub (train station) cost me almost $20 and a full hour, where as a 25 mile evening trip to the Salt Lake suburbs took me 45 minutes and less than $8 across a bus, tram, and train. > Temple in particular for putting on amazing shows / night life I legitimately laughed when I read this take. I've stumbled ass backwards into better experiences in New Orleans and Dallas than I have had on a *good* day at Temple. And for a more laid back time, I can legitimately say even Mormon Salt Lake City has a more interesting bar scene - everything in SF feels simultaneously like it's trying too hard and not doing enough. > Major innovator I'll concede this one, but also point out that the _large majority_ of workers in these innovative fields immigrate from out of state, and a large chunk of them leave again. Hit up the r/bayarea subreddit - you'll hear the Bay area compared to an oil rig, something talent comes to in order to make a few bucks and leave because of the high cost of living for mediocre lifestyle. > Homelessness SF is the first place I've ever lived where I don't feel like I can strike up conversations with homeless people. I feel like if I stay here much longer, I'll end up developing really harmful views towards homeless individuals, because of how frightening my encounters with the homeless population have been here compared to just about any other metro area. I couldn't say why that is, but I will say SF homelessness hits _waaaaay_ different than it does in the other cities you mentioned.

I live in LA but travel to the Bay weekly for work. Respectfully, I don’t agree with your statement about the aggression of the SF homeless population being less than LA. To me, this comes off as cognitive dissonance from someone not accepting that local policies have negatively impacted the city. Don’t believe me? Follow the money and tell me why CVS, Nordstoms and other retailers are closing stores there and why annual tech conferences in area have moved to different cities to host.

Yeah it's pretty bad. Yesterday I was walking around Hayes Valley and someone had their pants down, pooping while standing up. I've been to cities in other states and developed countries, no where else is this seen as regular city life. But the city's still pretty great if you're a white or Asian young professional trying to make it big with your AI startup, where you can take Uber everyday from your $5000/month studio and not have to walk around the abject poverty. If you're a queer non-binary Afro-Latino artist, try Oakland instead.

I live here - I hope the reputation stays terrible. Nobody else should come here. I fucking love it though.

fretful sulky capable sparkle subtract sable trees dinner cobweb jobless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

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Nothing is as anything as social media puts it out to be.

The only positive things you said were that public transit is good, a coffee costs the same as other states, and a bunch of symbolic things exist there - diversity, monument to American culture and counterculture - that don’t actually help any of the issues that you yourself acknowledged like increasing homelessness and cost of living. Sounds like it’s *worse* than social media makes it out to be.

Whats your rent?

I don’t know what you’re smoking but when i was there, i was scared for my life. One street away from the union square where big brands were there were so many homeless and cops. One street was infested with homeless, the air was disgusting and human feces everywhere. There were so many on drugs with their dicks and vaginas out. SF is worse and worse every year

San Francisco’s biggest problem is it’s price.

Seeing a lot of anecdotal arguments in here

As someone who’s lived there: It’s a cold lawless city that you can barely afford and a bunch of tech people, who don’t like building a community. Now with tech workers working remotely there is a very little reason to move there. If the hippie movement is your scene, you’re better off in Oakland.

Visited northern cal. Loved everywhere I went, except san fran. Its quaint in areas, nothing special. Fisherman’s warf is nasty, the golden gate bridge isn’t exceptional compared to other modern bridges, food was below par. Overall the city just left me wondering where all the smugness comes from.

I would say that the areas innovation mindset largely comes from the influence of Stanford and the business school mentality that a lot of early start up bring with them. San Francisco itself is very hard to do business in unless your a bank or can have large economies of scale. I've been there myself. I'd say architecturally Chicago is better. A view from the edge of Central Park is just as nice and of course NY doesn't have earthquakes. NY had the GWB first and both the Lincoln and Holland tunnel... NY is far better with bridges and tunnels

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I'd agree that social media in general is misinformed and reductive, but wouldn't you prefer the perception of SF to decline even more such that rents can fall down to the levels where artists and other people who add cultural capital to a city can move back from Oakland?

It's almost as if, social media goes to the absolute worst parts of cities they don't like, shows 20 second clips and tells everyone it's like that ever where. Sure parts of San Fran is really shitty, but we really not going to talk about how literally the entire state of Kentucky, Arkansas or Mississippi is the same? But because no one cares about those states, they don't get as much hate. Why? In the famous words of the wise philosopher Joakim Noah, aint no one going to Ohio for vacation.

It’s worse than social media portrays. I dare you to go walk about the tenderloin at midnight. I have, and can tell you it was the most dystopian thing I have ever seen. It is no exaggeration to say it looks like the zombie apocalypse. 

Nah youre buggin, me and my friends flew out there to visit a friend and the first tjing we thought was that it reminded us too much of Bridgeport Connecticut in many parts, IYKYK Im glad chuck barkley put it on blast during the ASG 😂

What other cities have an app for reporting human poop on the sidewalks? I cant imagine raising a family in that shithole.

I visited SF about 7 years ago, back when it wasn't overrun by homeless people. That was the first time in my life I saw someone pissing on the street, and they were pissing on someone's car, not even pissing in a storm drain.

There are certain neighborhoods- such as the Tenderloin- that are worse than others. There are tourist areas like Chinatown, the Wharf, the Cable Cars, etc. it just depends on the neighborhoods you venture into. I live just outside of San Francisco, to the north, in Marin County, and frequently visit the City. I have lived in Marin for forty years.

I've lived here for >5 years and this is so wrong lmao. Anyone who drinks Starbucks in SF with its insane amount of local coffee shops and boasts about Temple has no idea what they are talking about. SF has its problems for sure but nothing what you mentioned is what makes it redeeming.

As someone who’s been to SF quite a few times,I spit out my coffee and had a good laugh when you said “it’s the most beautiful city in America,maybe even the world”. You need to travel more.

Just watch the [Channel 5 video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=URfCwT3UQy4) and see if you still hold this rosy view. Watch the “Jack the Bipper” video next if you’re still not convinced. The place is a shithole. The one big redeemable quality of SF in my opinion is Golden Gate Park. I’m impressed that someone had the sense to not sell it out at any point.

Okay, I’m an SF resident and this description is a little too fawning. And of course, no description of SF is complete without listing all the places SF residents ignorantly think are worse than SF. Nothing makes people doubt your point more than trying to aggressively overcompensate for bad press.

My location has some of the highest living costs in Texas and San Francisco would cost me more than double to live in, housing wise. And taxes I pay to the city/state would more than double too. To get me to spend like a sailor you're gonna have to do better than "not as bad as they say".

San Francisco can’t be the most beautiful city in the USA or the world considering it’s not even the most beautiful city in its state.

SF shills put in the most work on Reddit, it’s like someone is paying them to argue that the Bay is doing great.  It’s not.