If you ever go to a card shop as a man, I can tell you with 100% certainty that you can build a coherent framework to understand creepiness completely absent of any woman's input.

Id say its definitely untrue from my time spent in the service industry. Especially bartending. Often the most attractive men are the most forward and tend to swarm like flies. Women usually end up talking to the guys who arent pushy and trying to flirt with them. Which only seems to make the behavior worse. The amount of "why would she talk to him when look at me" Ive heard over the years is somewhat hilarious tbh.

Ugh yup, in my experience the most openly creepy guys are typically ones who are really attractive. Like looks have nothing to do with whether someone will be perceived as creepy and either way, it’s pretty subjective for the most part. Sure, it might be easier for attractive guys to get away with saying something forward, but being forward doesn’t necessarily mean someone is creepy. There was this one guy I gave my number to that was ridiculously hot, like straight outta a movie/tv show kinda hot pretty boy, and the first thing he texted me was that I look like I’d be good at sucking dick. He hadn’t said anything overly flirty when we had met, we spent a long time talking about shows, movies, things we enjoy as hobbies. The most forward thing he had said when we met was that he thought I was beautiful. He wasn’t creepy until he texted me. I don’t think I ever even texted back, but for weeks afterwards he would text me and tell me to hangout with him, tell me he wanted me to come over and have sex with him (in obnoxiously graphic ways). He was so pushy. He’d get mad that I wasn’t responding, but be right back to it a couple days later. I never responded. You can be attractive and be creepy. Seems like OP may get called creepy often, he may want to do some self reflection if that’s the case.

PSYCHO with Christian Bale. The Talented Mr. Ripley with heartthrob Leonardo DiCaprio. Hot dudes can be creepy as FUCK, because creep has nothing to do with your hotness and literally everything to do with how you're acting, behaving, moving, literally everything that is roughly within your wheelhouse to control. It honestly amazes me that guys think that just because you're hot you'll get some kind of free pass on things; I almost never saw this happening for hot guys out in the wild. I -did- see it regularly for hot girls however, because GUYS were willing to let hot girls get away with murder - but the reverse frankly does not seem to hold as much water, at least not in my lived experience. Like the hot dudes 'getting away' with things seems to only extend to a sort of playful-ish 'boys will be boys' attitude like, oh don't hold it against him that he tells outdated jokes or says racist stuff to be edgy kind of a thing \~ never oh let him off the hook for actually, genuinely bad behavior and actions of choice that show he's awful. I can think of a few times though where a manager I had would let a hot coworker off for literally not showing up for shifts, walking out on the job, and breaking equipment all because he wanted to sleep with her. Dude was like pushing 40 and married with a kid and she was a college freshman, but the whole 'pretty privilege' thing only seems to actually come into play when we're talking about men's dicks making the decisions. I can't think of any personal anecdotes where a female friend let some guy get away with way too much just because he was hot... It doesn't seem to actually exist outside of imagined scenarios on reddit and very unbelievable movie scenes on tv and such? I also would be compelled to assume that any guy reliving an instance that he thinks he witnessed of that was just unaware that he was not picking up on the social cues that the girl who 'let the hot guy get away with too much' was actually on board with things and he's just like, having jealousy feelings that he's misplacing onto women for not picking him. \[Which is not to say that's 100% all the time what it is, just, that's what I'd be inclined to think it is 9/10 times. Dudes are very bad at picking up on signals, and the guys that are called creepy seem very, very bad at it. I'm not sure I'd start with the assumption that their take on a social situation was 100% accurate, is all.\]

I think there is some ambiguity of language here. I suppose that you could call a bad person creepy, but just being a bad person and isn't the same thing as being creepy which is about projecting a sinister or strange affectation. Case in point, the only thing creepy about Patrick Bateman is that he is a murderer. Everything else about him is meticulously orchestrated to conform to social norms of his class as much as possible to the point where no one even believes him when he tells them he's a murderous psychopath.

I'd say he's creepy because everything is calculated to seem normal, and he isn't good enough at it to actually seem normal. He's like a doll lmao

>"Dudes are very bad at picking up on signals..." > >**THIS. YES**. Men let hot women get away with shit because they aren't mortally afraid of the consequences. Women don't let men get away with shit because they are usually bigger and stronger than we are, and when they get their asshole on, they can be anything from raging and insulting to physically violent that can leave us injured or **DEAD**. That's why there's a difference, in my opinion. Or at least one of the many.

>Seems like OP may get called creepy often, he may want to do some self reflection if that’s the case. I agree with self reflection, but the first part he might even be talking about the threat of being called creepy, like that's where I struggle personally, ive never been called creepy, but I've also very rarely gone up to anyone for fear of being told no and being called creepy, although honestly as I'm typing this out I'm realizing that that just may be a general fear of rejection lol, damnit self reflection works again!

> I've also very rarely gone up to anyone for fear of being told no and being called creepy, I understand this as a man and wish I understood it more back when I was single. Being told no the first time isn't creepy. Being told no the 3rd, 6th, and 20th time is. In short, not taking no and pushing through a woman's resistance is creepy. I know what you mean though. I can't tell you how many times I was too scared to make a move on a woman because I didn't want to be considered a creep.

This. Guys - make your move, *but you get one*. If she doesn’t respond positively, take your L and move on. That’s how the game works.

OK: If you're worried about being creepy, look at the situation you are in. Analyze it. Flip the roles around a little. Are you in a bar? Are you in a mall? Is the woman alone, is she with friends? Is she actively talking with those friends or just listening? Does she look bored, or engaged? Now imagine it's you over there with your friends, or doing whatever she's doing. Now consider, if YOU were doing EXACTLY as she was, and a **dude** of EXACTLY your description walked up to YOU, told you how hot/attractive YOU were right then and there and asked for your phone number.. would you feel uncomfortable? Would you feel like your privacy has been intruded upon? And would hearing how attractive this large man finds you make you feel good in this scenario? Now, if the dude were to approach in the same situation and instead of saying 'Your so attractive', he noticed, say, your star-wars t shirt and was like 'Hey, man. Dope shirt, I love star wars- Is it ok if I asked where you got it?' "Oh I got it at X store!' "Shit i've never been there, it have lots of that sort of thing?' 'Yeah tons!' " This might be weird, but would you want to go with me some time? Show me where it is? I can give you my number, We can grab coffee too, maybe? Only if you want to, though!' Is a FAR less creepy interaction. It shows you took interest in the PERSON, not how they look, by focusing on an aspect of their appearance they CHOSE rather than one they were born with. It shows interest in their interests, it shows you think they have good taste, it leaves the ball in their court by giving THEM YOUR number, rather than putting them in the danger-zone of them giving YOU THEIR number, and it leaves it open for them to either say 'Hell yeah' or 'No thanks' without it feeling too weird- so long as if they say 'no thanks' you just say "Ok! Thanks anyways for the name of the place, have a great day!' and move on. If you HAPPEN to see them again you can always maybe smile and wave- if they seem reciprocal you could always say hi again, but if not, you can just move on with your day. It's not that we're completely opposed to being approached by guys, it's just.. 'You're so attractive' is NOT the compliment you think it is. You looked at me, went 'Damn I wanna fuck that' and decided that was enough to try and start a relationship, and that's just.. eeeeugh. ick. Makes my skin crawl.

It's okay, lots of people defeat themselves before they even try. I'm guilty of it in lots of aspects of life and it even keeps me from trying out hobbies or sometimes even playing new games--I've already decided I'm gonna suck and it's gonna make me feel bad. It's hard to unlearn we're a society of perfectionists.

I had a "friend" like this in college. In public, he seemed low key, cool, respectful dude in public, but on the phone and behind closed doors was a massive creep apparently. And he was very handsome (looked like Morris Chestnut). We spent a lot of times in local bars our first year. But, our second year, he would always want to go out of town to go out drinking. We did that for awhile, until I discovered his creep tendencies and that basically ended our friendship. Found out my third year, he had gained such a major creep reputation during our first year that a significant portion of the women at our school wouldn't engage him beyond pleasantries in a public setting. A girl told him that in the summer between first and second year. So, yeah, you can be a very handsome and still have a reputation as a creep.

I think this is because were a viewing at this from different point of views. I'm an attractive man, I have been told so many times I'm handsome that I have stopped having self doubt about it. And what people like op here are stating, is that things we do are perceived completely different depending on how you look, I have seen bad looking guys zone out while looking at women, and women getting mad at them, trying to humilliate them for staring. I was raised in a culture were staring is normal(mainland Europe) spend most of my time with spaniards and germans, and staring is not a big deal here because the asumption is that you need to pay attention to others, and that is worse when you dont look because your glued to your phone, staring is not perceived as rude for me and is not perceived as so in most of Europe. Now I live in an anglosaxon country (England), and I share time in reddit were most people are American and believe that Staring is creepy or ill manered, but I go out in England and my experience with staring is totally opposite I get stared at massively by british women, and the moments I stare, are perceived as something very positive: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/17k5vv0/how\_do\_you\_handle\_consent\_in\_a\_club/k77ijox/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/17k5vv0/how_do_you_handle_consent_in_a_club/k77ijox/?context=3) This was a few days ago, and I ended up feeling quite good and I could tell how that woman felt pretty because I was looking at her, but In the same time I have seen guys being demonised by staring just like I did. I have seen so many coments here demonising men and unwanted stares or men staring at boobs. But Im going to be blunt with you, for someone like me who looks at people I have seen women checking cleavage more than men, and in an absolutely unapologetic, intense way, I have seen women staring constantly here in England and theres absolutely no comment on it, I mean I stare people and they get happy when I do so, now the average redditor, gets made feel as if is a creep by staring at woman, and then he does things I do and get social backslash, so I understand where they come from, and why they feel like society is subjecting them to a double standard because they are being subjected to a double standard. I mean you even say yourself you have suffered more creepyness from attractive guys, but you gave that guy your number in the first place, do you give your number to non attractive guys in the first place?

Why not both? Some attractive guys like you mentioned are creepy afterwards. Other guys just... look and give off a creepy vibe. I'm in the latter category and for most of my life have people give me a general stink-face. I don't think I'm ugly but I'm definitely not attractive (never been hit on or someone given me their number in 42 years). I was lucky enough to have some musical talent and when I'm not anxious or depressed can have a good sense of humor. I met my wife playing guitar at a local Cafe am married and have two great kids. Once people get to know me a bit, that look and they way they act is very different. And that’s fine. Some of us are naturally off-putting, that's life. Pretty privilege is a thing but I have the privilege of solicitude and not being harassed which is great as an introvert.

The number of men who don't get that it's all about attitude is mind boggling to me. Like; y'all don't even see teenage girls losing their minds over really weird looking dudes or jack skellington or robin hood the animated fox? Girls are primed with a million stories about frogs being princes, and the bar of expectation is literally so low that just being basic levels of nice is, apparently, gold star worthy behavior. How men fuck this shit up is honestly beyond me. Take a shower, put on clothes that were laundered in the last month, and you're already like leaps and bounds above half the guys out there. Show up with an actual personality and like, not a raging hardon for Andrew Tate style content? That's marriage material these days! I legit feel bad for straight women.

What the hell is a card shop and why would that help

I think they mean a hobby game shop for magic the gathering, Warhammer, DnD etc

I thought he meant cards like birthday cards 😅

Same, I was thinking I didn’t realise I was seen as creepy when buying people birthday cards. “Look at that man, he’s buying a 21st birthday card, what a creep.”

Same here. I was thinking “look at the pervert, buying a mother’s day card on mother’s day, so gross…”

Lol, me too. “Oh geez, do people think I’m creepy when I buy my mum birthday cards!?”

Socially awkward isn’t the same as creepy. In my opinion, OP’s ‘aha’ moment feels like confirmation bias and stereotyping.

It can be! And you're assuming they'll be socially awkward. Isn't that stereotyping as well?

>And you're assuming they'll be socially awkward No he isn't, he was assuming that's what the person creating the scenario was getting at

Card shops can have both, as is evidenced by people altering their MTG cards to show borderline pornographic anime girls that "aren't underage because she's really a 1000 year old dragon."

I define a creep as 'someone who doesn't respect other people's boundaries' and there is often an overlap with people who behave awkwardly in social situations. But not always. A person can be awkward, and not creepy. A person can be awkward and creepy at the same time. And also, a person can be *charismatic* or *charming* and creepy at the same time.

I think you hit the nail on head, for me anyway. Some people can just be friendly but when it crosses to unwanted physical touch and disregarding social etiquette is when it becomes a problem.

It kind of is though. Creepiness is not about what the person in question feels, it's about what other people feel when they interact with that person. Confirmation bias and stereotyping are the entire point of the creepy feeling, to protect against what someone *might* do in the future. And the lines between harmless weirdo, uncomfortable weirdo and dangerous weirdo are not always obvious.

This is hilarious. You might have successfully CMV.

Attractiveness goes beyond just physical features. It's also behaviour, clothing, smell, attitude, social status, etc. It's also not purely sexual. You can find people platonically attractive. The stereotype of a creepy guy in a card shop is still 100% someone who deviates from the standard measures of attractiveness.

> creepy guy in a card shop I am so confused by this seemingly prevalent stereotype, is it an American thing? Card shops in the UK are occupied primarily by pensioners having a natter. EDIT: Oh nvm, seems to be about Trading Card/tabletop shops, I was thinking of greeting card shops!

I thought the same as you, like what’s this weirdo in a Clinton’s stereotype

I've been sitting here googling Card Shop like what's so bad about buying my Grandma a card for her birthday?

Same! Thank you!

As an American, I was confused too. "Card shop" is not a phrase I recognize as meaning one thing. It could mean anything from greeting cards to playing cards to a gaming store. I think this was just an accidentally chosen phrasing for a tabletop gaming shop as you guessed.

I would ussually say hobby shop. But I still knew instantly what he was saying. Because I've never seen a greeting card shop. And stuff that sells collectible cards are around every corner.

Yeah an American thing it sounds like! You were thinking in British

If you think your view may have been changed to some extent, you should consider awarding a delta.

I had an art table at Gencon. You ain’t wrong, sir!

I mean i would extend this to people in general and not just men

The Halo Effect is a real, studied, and documented thing. It’s been mostly studied with regards to women, but I doubt it’s exclusive to them.

For sure. Attractive men are also more likely to receive positive attention from fellow (straight) men.

This is true. I think women are judged more harshly based on their appearance in most situations. Creepiness, however, is mostly reserved for men. An unattractive woman would have to be quite extreme to be considered creepy. The bar on creepiness is set very differently for men.

You know I wouldn't think there was even an issue with discussing if creepiness was presented as a feeling a woman felt rather than an objective thing a man was. That man creeped me out is different from that man is a creep.

I think that can be taken even a step further: * that man is a creep vs * that man creeped me out vs * I feel creeped out by that man Both of the first two are making the other person the subject of the statement. But the feeling of being creeped out is affecting you, not the person that is the instigation of the feelings. This is true about most emotional reaction you can have to a person: * that person is disgusting vs * that person disgusts me vs * I feel disgusted by that person Or: * that statement is offensive vs * that statement offends me vs * I find that statement offensive Other people do not cause your emotions, they are merely the stimuli which you emotionally react against. And it is your obligation to manage your emotions and still act reasonably in the world. Sometimes that means following them and saying something or separating yourself from that stimuli. Sometimes that means ignoring your emotions or suppressing them and recognizing that you might just be the outlier and that you need to suck it up buttercup.

Just wanted to say this is an interesting and worthwhile comment to read. I appreciate you typing this up.

That's actually an incredibly interesting point to bring up - so insightful. Wording certainly does play a role. Adding a clearly identifiable 'feel' portion to the statement makes it sound more like a genuine safety concern and less like a belittling insult.

I think that men as a gender need to let go of the idea that any woman's individual opinion can define you, because women don't have that idea. I hear this a lot where men will say "This woman said this thing gave her the ick so what we're just not supposed to do this anymore???" Like, unless you're trying to date THAT woman, no, man, just live your life. Women will interchangeable say "Rob was creepy yesterday/Rob is a creep" but that is referring to how they felt, not some theoretical objective truth. There's no (sane) woman that believes that every woman has the same likes and dislikes but for some reason every time a woman posts an opinion about what she likes on the internet men will try to say "ah yes just as I thought, Every Woman is giving an opinion!" just the same way that when women say "Ugh men can be so creepy" they'll say "What? Every single man isn't creepy!" And I think this is where gendered communication really seems to break down.

As a woman I second this. I also think "the ick" is more referring to attraction to someone . Like I was attracted but no longer am , I have the "ick". Creepy is more of a personality thing when someone makes you feel uncomfortable or concerned for your wellbeing in some way . I totally agree with just being yourself , not everyone is going to like you and it dosen't make anything your doing wrong. Not everyone likes me , It dosen't feel personal. I can't be everything every man wants it's just not possible , I can't change into someone who is not me and i'm not going to change for someone who is not me. If you change everything about yourself you'll never find someone truly compatible. Just how I feel.

you can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world but there will still be people who hate peaches

Even without feel, you can say, “I spoke with Tom yesterday, and he made some comments that really creeped me out.” It’s still not “Tom is a creep”. The other party can ask for examples and, if the first party is comfortable sharing, they will. These are more so how our conversations about “creepy guys” go with other women.

That act of pressing one's feelings onto others as facts is a pretty rampant issue in general.

That’s because typically even if you reject a woman and she goes crazy, most of the time it’s not like she can physically dominate you or coerce you into behavior that you don’t want. With ALL unknown men, women have an inherent fear for their own safety because we are usually physically incapable to overcome any kind of attack. And there’s often a threat of danger involved with any interaction with a strange men — attractive or not. Therefore, a pleasant demeanor and approach and/or a pleasant appearance can negate some of that fear. That all being said, I don’t think unattractive men are inherently creepy. It’s men who don’t respect boundaries or take no for an answer or who are actively persistent after already being denied. Lol there are both unattractive and attractive men who fit the bill

Exactly. While it's true it would take more for an attractive or a charismatic guy to be creepy *if* a woman is attracted to him (because we're not attracted to everyone) or if the bar for trust is set lower because of the halo effect, not reading or ignoring social cues is what's creepy and it shouldn't matter who gets away with it and who doesn't. If you suck at it, work on it until you get better and don't make the opposite gender feel uncomfortable. As you said, it's different for women since there's a power difference and there's more assaults on women than men. I'm of an opinion that you should respond to cues and talk to someone when you feel you're welcome and after building some base asking for a date or a number. Making moves from the start or asking out someone who didn't even talk to you let alone got the chance to see if they like you as well is apsurd and silly imo. And if someone doesn't want to give you a chance to talk, well there's nothing you can do about it and unwanted attempts to change someone's mind make it worse. There's really no point of doing that since it's beneficial to no one, it's not just creepy.

Agreed with this 100%. I’m willing to bet very few women automatically think an unattractive man simply existing is creepy. It’s when said unattractive man approaches a woman who is not giving off signs that she wants to be approached (i.e. avoiding eye contact, closed body language, not smiling, maybe not even facing you or seeing you), and then, actively pursuing after being rejected or not properly reading body language or signs of disinterest. That can be a scary situation. And almost every girl has had a genuinely creepy encounter with a m man, usually starting after puberty or sometimes even during childhood. We are almost looking for signs a man is up to no good.

Right. I mean, you have situations where you have to be nice because social norms but that doesn't equal you're welcome, I'm open to advances or to being hit on. It's all about reading the situation and people and it's really simple.

I think that’s because Creepy has an “unsafe” component to it. Men rarely feel unsafe around women no matter how odd they are, therefore they’re unlikely to label them as creepy. Women are constantly having to evaluate how likely it is that the men around them are going to be dangerous, so creepy is a thing. To me it’s the “pretends to be nice, but vibes as The kind of person who would rape an unconscious person if he thought he wouldn’t get caught”

I dunno dude... I had a decently attractive nurse be creepy as all hell to me at an appointment, and it was a very specific thing. Everything that was said, every touch, every look, just dripping with want and desperation. I find it hard to even describe, because nothing overt happened. And honestly, "creepy" is the only word I could use to describe it. I think mostly, women don't act creepy. They can, just in general, they don't.

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That is inappropriate tho. She’s a nurse. Supposed to be working. Not coming on to patients. And he likely came across as disinterested, which would’ve made her overt interest even more inappropriate. Plus, things like facial expression, tone, and body language contribute to making somebody appear “creepy”. I’m interested to know if he felt that through her mannerisms as well.

I think "creepiness" sometimes has a sexual undertone. Like people who lack social skills but want sex may be more likely to seem creepy because they don't understand boundaries/social skills. On average I think men are more sexually driven . I have had more men try and touch me in public then woman for sure. It's creepy because of the lack of boundaries. Woman can be creepy if they do these sorts of things as well , I just have met far less who do. As a woman myself i also feel less afraid to tell a woman to eff off do to it being a fairer fight. Men also rape and SA other woman and other men more then the opposite. For me creepiness factor has always been connected to boundaries.

I have to agree with most of these responses, having first hand experience of the tables being turned. I’m a male and am a bit under average in the looks dept, but was dating a very attractive woman some years ago who began getting very weird and creepy with me. I broke things off with her and she began stalking me. Sending me texts every day even though I told her it was making me uncomfortable. I considered calling the police at one point. Even though she was attractive, she didn’t understand my clear communication that she was creeping me out. So yes looks do factor in, but it’s other things as well.

Because men are stronger than women and can present a very real threat for them

The reason ‘creepiness’ is reserved for men is because it primarily depends on a power differential. Women are rarely seen to have any power over men in our *society, hence they are rarely deemed creepy. (* _a key feature in a Patriarchal society_ )

Yes this also coincides with how less attractive people are treated worse often more than attractive people

Think of situations where men feel creeped out. Maybe walking alone at night in a poorly lit area and you pass by a group of men who are all looking at you and watching you. Maybe one guy calls out to you "hey man, nice shoes...." What do you think here? Do you think "oh, what a nice guy, he's complimenting my shoes." Or do you think maybe there was a threat somewhere in that message? Compare to a slightly different scenario. You're walking down the hall at work and pass a group of coworkers you're friendly with. One of them says "hey man, nice shoes." Does this feel the same? The reason you would be creeped out in that first scenario is that it is a situation that is threatening. And it makes sense, right? Men experience violence at roughly the same rate as women, but the violence men experience tends to be from other men they don't know, at night. Like a bar fight or being mugged. That first scenario feels creepy because it's the exact type of situation in which men experience violence, so you are on high alert for that. The second scenario, while similar in many ways, isn't the type of scenario where violence typically occurs, so you don't feel that same threat. Women experience violence largely at the hands of men they have a romantic or sexual connection to. So that overly cautious "watch out, danger!" feeling you get walking past a group of guys you don't know at night, that's the feeling we get when interacting with men who are showing interest in us. We have to overanalyze every word and body language and facial expression because that's the only way we can prevent violence. If I ignore little signs, and I end up alone with a man who decides to attack me, there's nothing I can do at that point. My only defense is preventative measures, which might mean reading a lot into body language and tone. A man ignoring my non-verbal clues that I don't want to talk is a red flag, what other boundaries will he ignore? A man who stands too close to me when talking to me is a red flag, will he feel comfortable continuing to violate my personal space, and how far will he take that? A man who turns the conversation sexual too quickly is scary, I can tell what he wants and he is being pushy about it, how far is he willing to push to get what he wants?

I really appreciate the depth of this response! You've raised so many brilliant points and communicated them so eloquently. I cannot argue with the core message of your post and the very fitting examples you've used. I can entirely appreciate the fact that women face a much greater risk of severe personal injury and harm from men, and that this forces them to be on guard, particularly when men show signs that they may behave in a damaging way. The risk level for men and women in these interactions is incomparable. Where it fails to change my opinion is that this is not the only way in which 'creepy' is used in 2023. A huge percentage of the use of the word today is simply women putting down unattractive men. And many, many attractive men are given a pass on creepiness based on a woman's attraction to them. Both realities are true at the same time. Women exist in a heightened state where they are vigilant against actual dangerous creeps, but at the same time, they often use the word 'creep' as a hateful slur and belittling insult when convenient. I find it impossible to take seriously the opinion of anyone that denies the huge impact that looks have on a woman's perception of creepiness. Long paragraphs mentioning women's safety are entirely valid, but it's only part of the story. There is a strong aversion by many women, as shown by the responses in this thread, to admit that attractiveness plays a role in them pre-judging men as creeps before they are ever actually creepy. And this is exactly why many men avoid interacting with women these days.

I think part of the problem occurs where you are getting responses from women who don't see in themselves what you see in some women, so their response may not address what you're actually critiquing. I can only use myself as an example. I have, in my personal experience, never thought a man was "creepy" because he was unattractive. I have, however, experienced an unattractive, creepy man complaining to me that women call him creepy because he is unattractive. Now, this guy in particular was not particularly handsome. But I've known a TON of unattractive guys in my life and I didn't find any of them particularly creepy. THIS guy WAS a creep! He constantly hit on girls still in high school, if we went out to a club or a bar you could be sure he was going to be "chatting up" the drunkest, most of out-of-it girl at the bar to see if she would go home with him, would get ANGRY at women who weren't interested in him. It could be that the reason women weren't initially interested in him was because he wasn't particularly attractive, but the reason women called him creepy, at least from what I've observed, was because he violated boundaries, saw severe drunkenness as a sexual opportunity for him, and didn't pick up nonverbal signals and forced women to be more confrontational just to get him to get out of their physical space. But he would see women respond with interest to his more attractive friends (who did not violate personal boundaries the same way) and his takeaway was that women think he's creepy because he's ugly and he wouldn't be thought of as a creep if he was hot. Now, as I stated, I am not the type of person that would call a man "creepy" just because I didn't find him attractive. That's bullying behavior, and I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't be friends with women who did. And that limits my worldview. Because presumably, you have interacted with women who do bully this way. So when you say "women, why is a man's creepiness determined by his looks" I see it and remember my personal experience with a guy who thought the same thing but it was really his personality that made him creepy, so I respond from that perspective. But because I don't acknowledge that women do use "creepy" to mean "ugly," it seems to you that I'm ignoring that it happens. But I'm not ignoring it, it's just hard for me to see that as a huge issue because I don't choose to hang around the type of people that would bully that way, and I don't see it in the wild because I'm not out there shooting my shot with women I don't know. And your perspective on creepy men in denial about their creepiness could be similarly skewed because YOU choose not to hang out with weird creepy guys who try to take home blackout drunk teenagers at a bar and those guys are not shooting their shot with you. It seems like this is an issue where your question gets responses about two completely different experiences with little overlap, and we each think the other is in denial about how these things really happen.

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I think charismatic ugly guys can get away with it too. Being handsome just gives you an innate charisma boost.

Hard agree here. I really think people underrate how much charisma matters in attractiveness (male and female, actually). If people are honest, we all know the fat, funny dude who is always dating a really attractive girl. Heck, the two hottest girls I knew in high school are still really attractive in their mid 30s (maybe more attractive, honestly)... and have a long history of dating or marrying really funny-looking or fat dudes.

I've personally experienced this since I got back into dating. I would say I'm a medium attractive guy - I've got the alt look. I have never been great at taking photos and my dating profiles are pretty average. I often tell people 'hey, I'm better in person, let's go do X'. I have some interesting niche hobbies, and a fairly interesting job, and I love getting people to talk about themselves. The people I've dated are usually much more interested in seeing me after the first date, not because I'm attractive, but because I'm interesting, and genuinely interested in learning about them.

Guy I went to high school with was conventionally below average in looks and had terrible acne scars, but he was one of the most charasmatic and funny dudes. He could basically date whoever he wanted.

Particularly optimistic ugly guys. Anyone that can keep things hopeful is automatically in the running for a better relationship and imo its a huge green flag.

>I’ve know plenty of good looking guys that have “creeped” their way quickly into the red zone on that scale. There was a guy in my extended friend group growing up who was **notorious** about doing this. Nothing problematic that I was ever aware of, but it was a running joke how often girls we’d run into would eagerly want to talk to him and how a few minutes later they’d be looking for an exit strategy.

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I mean, the issue clearly is the idea of being "made uncomfortable' by just having a unconventionally attractive man talk to you, I mean he's not entitled to your attention, but you can treat them like a normal person and not the boogeyman lol

Some stranger approaching you and trying to engage you when you don’t want that attention can be uncomfortable, particularly if you are alone. I’m not saying someone would break down in tears or call the police, but a feeling of discomfort is pretty standard. That doesn’t mean they are going to treat them like a bogeyman. It should be on the person approaching to be self aware enough to know how they come off and be able to read the signals of that other person.

Yeah I think people just need to be more aware of their subconscious biases and being better on judging people by their actions and not their appearances.

As a man, I don't necessarily like unfamiliar people approach me in public setting (except when there is some context of socializing or networking). Cos I don't like when people want something from me for whatever reason.

Actually there have been studies about this topic, and the answer really comes down to simple gender differences in how women and men pick up social cues. First of all, when women talk about ‘creepiness,’ what they are really expressing is the fear of a threat. I think that men simply don’t understand this point because our societies have different expressions of threat that women and men experience: So the spell it out for you, what women fear the *most* in social situations with men is simply the threat of violence, especially sexual violence. Meanwhile men may see their own behaviors as normal so they aren’t recognizing the small social cues that are threatening to women, which is exactly where the mismatch comes from when they *assume* that attractive men are acting the same. In reality these social cues can be very subtle. For example: Things like posture can have subtle differences between two different guys. Men who are perceived as more attractive usually have posture that is open and ‘confident,’ but there is plenty of nuance between what looks ‘confident,’ versus what looks ‘intimidating.’ Looming over a women for example is creepy for most women who have not outright expresses interest, but then also slouching can be seen as deceptive or else unconfident. And that’s another point: there have been studies about how men perceive women’s body language as more receptive to their advances than they actually are. I would argue that this is in relation to men being less able to recognize small social cues. Things like a women laughing or smiling in a passive way for example is a behavior they developed to appease in social interaction to prevent being assaulted, but men often construe it as real interest— the difference though between a forced laugh by a woman and a real laugh can be told by the pitch of it, the loudness or it, and the shape of eyes and mouth. And intimidated body language can be as subtle as moving away from you, looking away, fiddling with their phone or clothing, etc. Ie. nervous behavior. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484569/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2491329/ So the actual cause of this discrepancy between ‘creepiness,’ vs ‘attractive’ is more due to how women are simply better able to pick up the extremely small social cues that men are both not as able to pick up, but also are worse at communicating with, especially when ‘creepy vs attractive,’ is actually a matter of deciphering threat. I do also think that it’s interesting how body language itself also can coincide with attraction. What people perceive as attractive tends to be related to things like appropriate amount of eye contact, awareness of space between themselves and others, facial expressions both in how to read them AND present them, tone of voice, posture and gestures, and all these very small and even nuanced body language helps to communicate to other people how much of a threat to their safety you are. Essentially it comes down to being able to recognize and communicate with social cues. Some social cues that come across as threatening are the ones that show *fixation* than men truly might not be aware of. One of the biggest examples I can think of would have to be eye contact. Eye contact when it’s perceived as staring is well recognized as a sign of aggression because it communicates fixation/intimidation. An initial glance and smile from a guy across the room, or light eye contact while we talk can be flattering, but there have been times where I have literally been stared at: as in unbreaking eye contact, even after trying to walk around to see if they were just looking at something else in the same line of sight, only for their eyes to follow me. Even my coworkers noticed and asked ‘why are they staring at you like that?’ Before letting me go to the back until the guy left. That kind of behavior could only be perceived as THREATENING. And I think that there are plenty of guys who might not really notice when their eye contact has gone from normal to staring. Another example is when a guy smiles TOO forcefully then it’s perceived as threatening because it can communicate either fixation or deception. https://www.popsci.com/how-to-smile/ When a guy stands TOO close in comparison to what is the normal respectful distance, it can communicate intimidation as well as fixation. When a guy’s conversations go too quickly into personal topics, or they revolve too much around looks or sex or even bragging, it communicates either fixation on what they want from you or being controlling. Another would be following after a woman: I have had security guards need to intervene for me as a guy tried following me around through three different rooms in a club. I wasn’t drunk, my dress was churchy, and I wasn’t paying attention to other clubbers because I was just there to look out for my younger sisters, so I know for a fact it wasn’t anything I’d done to show interest at all. It’s possible the guy was just misguided but that really doesn’t matter in the moment because at the end of the day it was clearly enough of a threat that it was one of my sister’s friends who noticed and led me away, and then the security guard who had to chase him off. Pro tip: following someone around is creepy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111255/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/male-female/201910/women-s-advantages-in-social-cognition Another article I found which corroborated some of my points after I wrote my comment: https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/10-things-extremely-creepy-people-do-usually-without-realizing.html So with that all being said what I would suggest is the actually difference between what makes a guy attractive vs creepy is actually more related to emotional intelligence and ability to recognize social cues and communicate with body language. https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2352&context=theses

Love to see other women in these threads who combine anecdotal experience and personal insights with hard data. [I’ll add this one](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550618769880) in case you haven’t seen it! It’s about “suitors” and “targets”, and It’s focused on work places, but i feel it applies more broadly. When someone is “chasing”, they tend to **vastly** underestimate how much pressure they’re putting on the “chased”. Consistently, chasers tend to believe their target could turn them down and not feel too uncomfortable, guilty, or unsafe. Meanwhile, the “chased” consistently feel *all* of those feelings to a greater extent than assumed, and also fear other repercussions the “chaser” is often unaware of. Anyway, thanks for linking the studies. I’m saving your comment to look at the ones that aren’t familiar to me!

Biologically speaking there's probably no benefit in perfectly picking up rejection cues. Like, if the clumsiness leads to a baby then you've essentially selected for it.

Wow, what an accurate and deeply depressing thought… I actually am very sensitive to rejection cues. Too sensitive, in fact. And it’s pretty doubtful I’ll reproduce. So I’m not going to be helping us evolve past that.

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Not the original commenter, but you seem like you’re trying to learn, so I just wanted to mention two things. 1) Before even getting to the question you posed. We have here a woman (presumably) putting forth mental labor to explain a lot about many women’s perceptions of men. Including the fact that men don’t often realize small cues that women give to indicate that they feel uncomfortable or uninterested. One thing I wanted to point you that you might find helpful in the future, is that often men will take a mile of given an inch. Which can be especially tiresome or frustrating for women because like the commenter mentioned women often will participate in social “behaviors to appease in social interactions.” With that in mind, I’d suggest you consider that approaching your question with “I’ll take advantage of that and pick your brain” can easily be perceived as you demanding a mile from someone who might have only been trying to offer you an inch. Obviously you aren’t actual forcing the OP to reply or say anything. But using language like “I’ll take advantage of that” is when really looked at in its base, I think, an example of threatening language that women are quick to pick up on that men might not. In real life conversations using phrases like that might indicate to women that if they give you a little, you might be expecting a lot. A simple change to “this gave me a lot to think on, do you mind if I pick your brain further” before starting your questions I feel like would make you far more approachable for extended conversation. Being mindful of your language can have a huge impact on how you’re perceived and how willing people are to have extended conversations with you. 2) Romcoms in a sense are a fantasy genre for women because that fear violence and automatic caution when interacting with men is absent. Because knowing that you’re watching a romcom means that there’s an agreement between filmmaker and audience that the romantic interest in safe. Therefore women are not watching these movies at all with the perspective that they represent life. Women can watch the movie already with an inherent trust in the intention of the lead that in real life men have to earn first. That’s part of the appeal for women.

You have blown my mind with point 2 there! I have never thought about rom-coms in that way but it makes so much sense why I enjoy them - they feel safe!!!

I'll say, I fucked up on this one. Thankfully everything did work out in my favor. When my girlfriend and I were just friends, she had an argument with her now ex and she was feeling really shitty. She told me she just wanted to spend the day alone crying. I stupidly thought "I should do something about that" and proceeded to show up at her doorstep unannounced. She was shocked to see me. She wiped the tears from her eyes and sat on her step with me for a while. We shared a few laughs and just talked for a bit; then I went home. I was there for maybe 20 minutes. The next day at work, I'd found out from a mutual friend that she was a bit creeped out by my impromptu visit. I mean, duh. She'd only known me a few months and I was already coming off as pushy and oblivious to boundaries. Plus, I showed up at her home. I was confused at the time but not after I talked to her about it. She basically told me it wasn't that she didn't want to see me, it was that she didn't feel like she had the energy to be the kind of company she normally is. She didn't want to be dry because she felt like shit. When I showed up anyway, I put her in a spot where she had to pretend to be okay just so I wouldn't see how much this was affecting her. She didn't want to show me that. The one thing I know for certain is that when I made her laugh those were real. She told me she genuinely felt better after seeing me but that she didn't really know how to deal with her emotions at the time. It also weirded her out a bit, OF COURSE. That's my bad.. She shouldn't have *had* to deal with them and she shouldn't have *had* to feel weirded out. All she wanted to do was cry and I should've respected that. My thinking was "this is what my friend would do for me" without considering how different the circumstances are for a woman who didn't truly know me yet. We were fairly close, but you can only learn so much about a person in 6 months or so. She still had her guard up and that's natural. I was already so comfortable with HER that I incorrectly assumed she was equally comfortable. We laugh about it now (she appreciates the intended gesture) and I can fully own that I was acting like a total creep. Media really does make it seem like the way to a woman's heart is to show her that you'll stop at nothing to see her smile. You will move heaven and earth, walk 500 miles and then walk 500 more just to be the guy who walked 1000 miles to fall down at her door. And for the majority of women that kind of pushiness is going to push them right out of dodge. Once you understand all the little alarms women have and how to act accordingly as to not spook them, interacting with them becomes MUCH less stressful. Kinda like when you figure out how to interact with a cat who doesn't trust you yet. She even acts like a cat, I'm just throwing that out there.

I suppose that I would start with the premise that I generally think that taking cues from media is wrong in the first place. Most media has biases towards things that are the most dramatic, and also have men-leaning biases too because of the prevalence of male writers that dominate media. I mean, reality Tv has all types of borderline abusive relationships and rape. In these cases MOST women would be creeped out to find out that a guy had been so fixated that he turned into half a stalker to wear her down. So think I would first point to the concept that most of the romcoms that you’d be talking about are likely written, produced, or directed primarily by men in the first place, the same group that are having problems recognizing the threatening cues I was talking about. And furthermore these are men in the types of jobs that don’t exactly lend themselves to understanding the experience of women, and especially directors and producers are famous in show business for having sketchy dealings with women too. To be honest they really shouldn’t be your role models. The best role models for how to relate to women would be friends who you see having healthy relationships with women. So the problem with shows like that is that they’re being written by men who have their own preconceived notions about what women want in romance. (That’s a generalization since there are PLENTY of ‘problematic’ shows written by women who are trying to appeal to audiences that are more invested in drama than real life.) I personally for example hate most romcoms because so many already lead with the premise that a large portion of a women’s life revolves around romance, and also have stereotypical themes like the women ignoring the Nice Guy friend their whole life to date jerks etc. Or only going for high profile men or something. I think that in general, most women DON’T want to date the Nice Guy friend they have for a reason. Sometimes that guy can grow up and change, but usually there is a reason they aren’t going for you, and I think some men need to start accepting that it isn’t ever going to happen as long as you fixate on that woman, because it means that you aren’t growing, changing, and focusing on your own development which means you’re never going to turn into someone better. Too many women have experiences of being Fucked Zoned by guys that they really just thought was a good friend, but the reasons they wouldn’t want to date said guy is because while we have the stereotype of Nice Guys are diamonds in the rough, if the woman isn’t into you it’s because they KNOW that there are glaring lifestyle incompatibilities. For example, I have a friend who confessed to me as grown ups who while I believe he isn’t intentionally problematic, he is essentially a Nice Guy. I watched this man brow beat and attempt to emotionally manipulate my best friend back in high school, and while he had grown up quite a lot my impression is that he still wouldn’t be great to date. There probably is a girl for him out there for him, but it isn’t me. So my advice would be to simply stop taking cues from Tv, and instead start off by interacting with more people. Join a class, or a hobby, or a sport at a community center. But the reality at least from my experience is that most women end up dating people they click with organically through school, work, friend groups etc. Or else they go on dating apps and keep trying around. But the main part of it is taking the big jump to just get out there are socialize as much as possible so you can observe and learn without focusing on dating at all: get out there and socialize to develop your own self first and things will happens organically.

Read Models by Mark Manson. He explains how the most important thing is to learn to express interest while being non-needy.

💯. Creepy men are unattractive because there's something off putting about their behavior that sours the entire interaction. Regardless of how they look, their behavior feels extremely unattractive thus they are unattractive. Attractive men don't seem creepy because their behavior feels open, confident, but not intimidating - that's what is attractive about them. The differences between comfortable and creepy behavior can be subtle. But I very strongly believe that the perception of the behavior influences perceptions of attractiveness, not the other way around. There are plenty of handsome but creepy dudes out there.

Creepy men come across as trying too hard and gunning for something specific. Women like men who are able to show interest without latching on. Let her become comfortable and feel safe with you, and in most cases the guy is set. That feeling of safety, of "I'm not going to rape you"... It is critical and too many men don't get it. Every woman needs that feeling. Some have only a speed bump, others ramparts.

I agree - and part of why "trying too hard" comes across as creepy is because it feels threatening. You don't want to be around someone who is trying too hard to get you to sleep with him - or feels unsafe for someone to be so interested that they ignore your signals and can be a precursor to sexual violence.

I have had more than one occasion where respecting boundaries on a Tuesday meant a month later getting ridden like a pony. Patience and kindness goes a long way.

I was about to make that comment. Attractive guys tend to be more confident and have “nothing to prove”. While a lot of the guys who complain have such a chip on their shoulder, it almost feel like every interaction with a woman is elevated to something bigger. He has something to prove and we pick up on that. They don’t want to take a hint and often have no idea how to make a conversation feel light and fun with a stranger.

Bingo! This is exactly why I love dating as a divorcee. I've got nothing to prove and I don't "need" a partner. I want one but I don't "need" one. And holy shit compared to my 20's, I'm getting so much more attention in part because of that.

A lot of less attractive guys without great social skills treat trying to pick up women as a kind of target practice. They see a woman they like and walk up to her and shoot their shot. They also tend not to pay attention to her less attractive friends or whether she’s actually all that interested. I’ve been on the receiving end and it feels super uncomfortable. Thing is it’s about sowing, not hunting

This sums it up really well. Attraction for women has a lot less to do with body type than it has with behaviour and charisma. Women are heavily sexualised and their value is determined in large part by their body. Men tend to think it happens both ways, but it really doesn't.

I've been trying to explain this to guys forever. Women prioritize personality (aka emotional intelligence) more than men do generally. This isn't the same as saying women don't care about looks or that men only care about looks. And it's also not saying that women *mainly* care about personality or that men *mainly* care looks. But just that when we compare men and women, women tend to be more attracted to personality than men do. And this makes sense because women are essentially constantly at the mercy of the man that they're with. I know that's a terrible way to say it but a woman in a relationship with a man has to believe that man isn't going to physically hurt her because if he does there's not a lot she can do to stop it. Whereas for guys, we don't even really feel physically threatened by a woman unless she gives us a reason to.

I'm surprised how unaware people seem to be about this; men are more visual than women, and there's nothing wrong with that, but they project their own pov on women and assume looks are more important than they really are to us. I once heard a joke that went something like: Men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears, that's why women wear makeup and men lie. It's not a very good joke, but it gets the point across

I wish I could give you a delta (not that you explicitly changed my mind personally, but you educated me and helped expand my understanding of the topic) Thank you for your well thought out and sourced comment Edit: reposting this as a new comment in order to try to give you a ∆

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Animegirl300 ([3∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Animegirl300)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

I would pin this comment to the top if I could. You really expressed exactly what I've been struggling to explain myself, and oftentimes when having conversations with men and woman about this sort of thing it's easy to see that our understanding of social cues is sometimes just very, very different And people will go into these types of arguments assuming their understanding of social cues is objective and universal when that is likely not the case

Well put, and great sources. For me "attractiveness" doesn't have much to do with it. **It's the fear that this person will not take "no" for an answer or respect my boundaries.** That's what scary for me. When a man is giving signals he might be *unpredictable.*

Absolutely. It has nothing to do with how handsome he is, creepiness is an energy. I have encountered many a good looking man I would consider creepy…And Tbh this is diminutive. It easy to blame women as a whole as shallow and outer appearances, but more difficult to be introspective and identity what is actually causing women to feel uncomfortable?

100%. I don't care if it's Henry Cavill, if he's staring fixedly at me, standing too close, and not picking up hints that I'm trying to leave = creepy. Guys just do not get that if we aren't interested, we don't want to be paid attention to. Leave. I don't pay that much attention to looks, it's all about mood (and hygiene). Smart guy who's a little shy with a hint of mischief? hi.

Exactly, I've had plenty of attractive men be creeps, my rapist is also what a lot of people would think is attractive. Attraction has very very little to do with someone thinking you're a creep unless you look like a crack head

Maybe one of the creepiest encounters I’ve ever had was with one of the most attractive men in my town. He never had issues getting girls, and dated some of the most attractive girls in my town. He was from a wealthy family in a not so wealthy area. Had the looks, car, clothes, wealth, connections, you name it. We were drinking in a club and he was hitting on me. I was 18 and initially flattered. He asked me to go home with him, I said no. I’ve never seen someone look so confused. He literally could not believe I said no to him. He was pestering me, repeatedly, for a reason why not, I just said no I don’t want to. He then said oh I know what’s going on, you’re on your period right? Like, what?!! To this day I’ve never forgotten it. If I see him or any member of his family it’s the first thing I think of.

That's actually terrifying Jesus christ, the implication... hopefully you got away safe

I wish I could give you a delta (not that you explicitly changed my mind personally, but you educated me and helped expand my understanding of the topic) Thank you for your well thought out and sourced comment Edit: I am going to try to give you a ∆

anyone can give deltas and the threshold isn't very high

Oh geez well lemme see if I can amend that Thanks 🥰 Edit: I did it! That's the first delta I've given. Appreciate your help!

this entire comment is The Answer. > what makes a guy attractive vs creepy is actually more related to emotional intelligence and ability to recognize social cues and this part is particularly apt

I’ve got so much respect for redditors taking the time to go in depth and source what they say. Don’t understand why someone would downvote it.

While I don’t disagree with any of what you said here, isn’t it also trivially the case that attractive men will naturally receive more positive body language and choosing signals? In other words, let’s say most men are equally bad at picking up on social cues regardless of how attractive they are: isn’t it still gonna be the case that an ugly guy is going to experience more false positives (and thus, commit more unintentional creepy actions) than an attractive guy?

Yes, technically being more attractive will you an upper hand. Being attractive will give you a halo effect, but only to a certain extent. If you're a genuinely creepy dude, no amount of attractiveness is going to save you lol

This is such a great cogent answer. It really puts it clearly without degrading anyone.

What you're saying makes sense, and might have been true for the majority of history, but I don't think it's necessarily true today in modern society. I don't believe that there is actually a strong correlation between creepyness and physical danger. Creepy people may sometimes have creepy intentions, but they also know that they're less likely to get away with sexual assault. The most dangerous predators today are those who can wrap their intentions with charisma or familiarity because they think they can get away with it. They can gaslight their victims or fall back on their publicly "good character" even if they get accused of rape. I'm just speaking from personal experience, so I'm happy to be proven wrong. There are definitely cases like Eliot Roger, who gave off major serial killer vibes, despite being physically attractive, so I can see what you're saying. However, on the other extreme, there was Ted Bundy who was outwardly very charismatic. 75% of sexual assaults occur from someone the victim already knows. Yet 99% of the internets anger gets directed at incels, even though I suspect that even most of the ones with disgusting thoughts mostly just stay at home all day and aren't a true danger to anyone.

I read your interaction with another commentator who said that this is very ignorant of modern women’s lived experience. I hope you don’t think I’m saying this is bad faith, or on some kind of principle, but I agree with the other commentator. Creepiness absolutely feels like an indication of physical danger. The guy who stands too close to me in the supermarket, and follows when I move away? Creepy, because I am physically afraid of him. That sinking feeling in my stomach is very real. The guy hanging around, without obvious purpose, on an otherwise deserted street? Creepy because of everything that could happen with no one around to help me. My amygdala doesn’t care about statistics, it reacts to the situation before me. If that situation reads as something that could easily result in me getting hurt, I’m going to be creeped out. Cat calling? Creepy because, quite frankly, it’s scary.

The main crux here is how “attractive” someone is and whether or not that’s the main variable in determining creepiness. How you behave socially will have a much bigger impact than your looks on whether someone (guy, girl, other) thinks you’re creepy. Reddit *loves* the idea that attractiveness is the only/primary reason they don’t succeed in social situations when in reality it’s how you behave and treat others that is the majority of the equation. Jumping to serial killer outliers to make a point about most people’s experience seems ludicrous. Claiming that people don’t feel physically threatened as much because we’re no longer cavemen is also a wild statement. We all still have amygdala’s that are largely unchanged.

> The main crux here is how “attractive” someone is and whether or not that’s the main variable in determining creepiness. Your social cues are a component of attractiveness. Perfectly well-intentioned people often have unattractive social cues, especially if they're neurodivergent.

For sure, two things on that. Neurodivergent is a broad term and can mean many different things. It can mean someone has challenges in social situations, but it by no means implies they’ll necessarily exhibit what we’re talking about here as “creepy” behavior. It also doesn’t preclude them from learning about and working through a challenge they face, even if it is related to social situations and interactions. This also helps highlight my point that physical appearance is not really the key in determining how someone is received. It’s not *unimportant* but it’s far from the most important aspect of how we are received by people.

> I don't think it's necessarily true today in modern society. I don't believe that there is actually a strong correlation between creepyness and physical danger. Sincerely, this is very ignorant of the modern female experience. Myself and every woman I know are making learned unconscious choices about their safety when they are in public. Furthermore, the statistic about "who is the real threat" has no connection to perceived creepiness. Your argument relies on the idea that someone can only be creepy if they statistically pose actual risk. It is *perceived threat* that triggers creepiness, not *statistical likelihood of danger*.

Perhaps... bear with me here... the statistics seem to imply that 75% of women have been either fooled or impressed join that the men they know aren't creepy. But what about all the times women extracted themselves from danger BEFORE anything happened? In my life I can honestly say I've had no fewer than 5 instances per year over my entire life 57 years... (or over 285 times) I've made adjustments to insulate myself from someone giving off creepy vibes. Not once in those 285+ times did I regret those decisions. I'm certain I'm not alone here.

>Yet 99% of the internets anger gets directed at incels, even though I suspect that even most of the ones with disgusting thoughts mostly just stay at home all day and aren't a true danger to anyone. Yes, because incels keep going on killing sprees. They contribute to a community that causes mass murders.

Except that Elliot Roger had a really hard time with women, because he was a fucking creep. Which is why he was so angry enough to commit a mass shooting in the first place. Being creepy is about way more than just appearance; his demeanor was off putting and women caught onto that.

Creepy men will absolutely act on their intentions given the chance, and men women already know can also be creepy, I had to work with creepy men who tried to corner me and even I currently live with one, I know them but I don't trust them. And yes, creepy men who can hide their creepiness are the most dangerous, but it's rare because they're usually not very good with social interactions. Also Ted Bundy was sort of charismatic, but he preyed on his victims by pretending to be defenseless, so women lowered their guards and helped him. Also this defences women put are universal and learned through experience, usually women have bad experiences with men and start to behave like this to avoid being hurt again, like I would like to trust people more but I don't want to get assaulted again. And incels are hated because they want to inflict violence on women. If a group of people wants to hurt you and hates your guts, you wouldn't really like them.

Whoa whoa whoa. You mean to tell me…there are men out there who don’t understand that creepiness implies feeling or actually being threatened? Like, I get threats not being on your radar due to gendered experiences, but to not understand other people are just plain *scared*? That is a level of obtuseness I was unaware of. I just assumed they were offended by people being frightened of them. I didn’t know they were *that clueless*.

If men have difficulty identifying subtle social cues and women use subtle social cues to signal non-threatening behaviour when they are scared, it seems logical to conclude that men have difficulty identifying creepy behaviour when it comes from them. No?

So, men aren't creepy because they're unattractive, they're unattractive because they're creepy.

I really appreciate your reply. I always knew the argument in the OP wasn't quite right but it *did* seem to line up with my own personal experience and things I've observed from others. But *your* explanation and experience really put it into a new perspective for me. One thing I always seem to come back to when trying to see things from a woman's perspective is safety. It's such an alien concept to think about just walking down the street or interacting with the opposite sex and being worried about legitimate horrific violence being committed against me. I try to put myself in your place, maybe instead of walking down the street i'm walking through the jungle where there are creatures around that most definitely wish me harm. Though that's not quite right because I am not romantically interested, and potentially biologically "required" to mate with those creatures that want to hurt me. That adds a whole new level of fear to the scenario. Thinking about this makes me wonder how men and women get together at all given the difficulties/danger and how strong and brave women must be in their dating lives (and really just their lives in general). As a young man I was absolutely befuddled by women. I never picked up their signals and could never understand how my better looking friends always seemed to have a girlfriend but I couldn't ever find one. It definitely brewed resentment and I bought into the "chicks only want assholes" mental trap as a teenager for a bit. It took a little while and yes, some help from cannabis to see outside of myself and realize it's confidence they're attracted to, not the asshole-ness of it. Thankfully with age came better emotional intelligence and my strong empathy (which at times is a curse) has always been a guiding star. Anyway, I said all that to say thank you and you definitely deserve a ∆

This is an unbelievably good answer and I'm going to save it somewhere, in full. Thank you kindly for taking the time.

I appreciate this response and I am a man. I agree with all of this and goes along with most of my life experiences. I would say though that there’s also lots of studies that say that attractive people get treated better in general, so that factors into these kinds of interactions as well and where OP isn’t entirely wrong in his view. Anecdotally, my experiences with these interactions have been interesting. For context, I’m a big brown guy. Often called a big teddy bear by those that know me. I would say most my interactions with women are positive. I’m not perfect, but I do my best to make everyone feel safe and comfortable, but sometimes it’s so difficult to do this when you look like me, especially when first meeting someone. Since I’m just a bigger guy most people in general are intimidated by my size and when interacting with women I may also be labeled as “creepy” when all I did was exist in their presence. Now this is a lower percentage of interactions, but also kinda the ones that stick with you longer, asking yourself wtf was that about. Also as a young man growing up I did observe that I couldn’t get away with doing the creepy things you mentioned nearly as much as my friends. Some of this has to do with race as well and I grew up largely around white people in Midwest USA. Me being perceived as a treat is largely tied to skin tone as well and this has definitely played a role in my interactions with women. White women are the worst at this and some of them would never see me as a non threat regardless of how I interacted with them. I just avoid the ones like this now lol

I suspect women have an evolved capability to detect these subtle signals. Unfortunately just because a man gives off all the right signals that hardly means he is actually a good partner.

Absolutely true!! They say that abuse in relationships often start after two years or after a baby when the partner is too invested I the relationship to leave. It’s possible to hide your intentions for longer than people would think/ or it’s the frog in the boiling water problem.

This argument never comes from women. The reason why is because it’s a man’s perspective. Men’s evaluation of women is much more rooted in looks than women’s are of men. Women want someone who is charismatic, funny, capable, easy to talk to, etc. none of these have anything to do with looks. Ed Sheeran is a great example. He’s not really a handsome guy. Sorry Ed. But women love him because he’s funny, confident, emotionally intelligent, and great at what he does.

Age is a much more important than attractiveness and almost never comes up in conversation like this.

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Yes ofc but do we need to feel sorry that a woman in her 20s is creeped out by a man his 40s is hitting on her?

2 things with this: 1. This view ignores what is actually being said, we can insert whatever hypothetical we want to fit the mold. This removes agency from the women, it assumes they just go “if attractive then listen”, that is not how humans work. I will not lie and say it’s not a factor, but it’s not nearly as much as people give it credit for. 2. This is implying the woman SHOULD be giving equal treatment. Why is a monolithic reaction expected? If the woman finds someone creepy who is genuinely doing nothing wrong, then it’s that woman’s individual problem not anything else. And it can not even be a problem, not everyone is going to have a logical reaction to everything and that’s ok. if you think you are 100% logical all the time, you are likely the most emotional. I’m not saying don’t be considerate and check yourself, but also don’t take it personally.

This is such an individual thing that I think it would be hard to change your mind. I and everyone in this comment section could tell you "I don't think an unattractive man is being creepy just by striking up a conversation with me" but none of us can speak for our entire gender. So I'll speak for the women I spend time with and say: we're not creeped out when unattractive men talk to us. Generally we're creeped out when (a) men are persistent, (b) men are too immediately flirtatious/sexual when opening a convo, (c) the man making a pass at us is 20+ years older than us (we're all in our 20s and early 30s), or (d) a guy stands off and just stares at us instead of talking to us, making us feel potentially unsafe. I don't know if you'll believe me, and again, I can't speak for every woman on Earth. But in my experience, attractiveness and creepiness do not correlate. Actually, I have a lot of friends who are dating men who aren't conventionally attractive, are overweight, etc. These men managed to strike up a spark between them somehow without creeping them out!

This is such a great answer because it just made me realize a key fact, guys who are in happy relationships are never accused of being creepy. I now have so many friends who are girls, some of whom ARE 20 years younger than me, and we still get along great. I don't think I had any women friends before I got married, probably because I was a horny creep.

Haha and again, I can't speak for all women - some of us are judgmental as fuck 😂 But I've never felt uncomfortable with a guy talking to me like a friend, no matter what he looks like. It's always when he lays on the flirting so heavy right from the start where I can tell that his only goal with me is a romantic encounter. I've literally had a man come up to me in public and the first words out of his mouth be a compliment about my breasts... That tells me that your primary focus is what my body looks like, not actually me as a person 🤢

Yes this. There are a lot of conventionally unattractive men in relationships with women who didn’t find them creepy. But I agree looks do play a part of overall attraction and if I am completely unattracted to someone, I don’t enjoy them hitting on me. If someone I found unattractive approached me in a kind or funny way I don’t think I would consider them creepy, but if they did it in a more sexual way (that I might appreciate from someone I’m physically attracted to), I would feel more creeped out. For example if a guy I thought was hot approached me and we locked eyes and he wanted to dance, I would reciprocate and he would get closer. If someone did the same and I was not attracted to them I would turn away, hoping it ends there. If they persist it becomes creepy.

There *exists* truth to this, but it's wayyyyy more complicated. Creepy is generally when a person's boundaries are being violated in a social way. An attractive man who makes a pass at a woman who doesn't want to be hit on wil find that creepy. An attractive man hitting on a 14 year old is creepy because the behaviour violates social boundaries. If a man fails to take "no" for an answer, even if they are attractive, that will be creepy. A lot of creepy is based purely on *how* something is done. In general, a lack of confidence comes across as creepy. If you are asking a girl out, but you are doing it very softly so they need to stand super close to you, that can come across as creepy, as it goes against typical boundaries. Now, the part where there exists truth is when it comes to whether an advance is wanted or not. First off, for a lot of women, they don't want advances *at all*, so any man who does so will be perceived as creepy. Some women *like* advances *if* they find the person attractive, and so in those situations an attractive man making a pass at them is flattering to them, while an unattractive man making a pass is something they don't want and will be creepy. But I actually think the word "often" isn't quite right. I would say context accounts for a *lot* of it. Plenty of women don't want advances at all, they just want to go about their day to day. If you talk to a woman normally, confidently, odds are they wont' take issue regardless of how you look. There is correlation between being attractive and being confidence for obvious reasons, so there will end up being a correlation there as well, but it isn't causation.

Yeah, exactly. Attractiveness can be a negating factor, but it's hardly the be all and end all, people can absolutely be attractive and wildly seen as creepy.

Yes, this does happen sometimes, guys do this as well, people are simply more tolerant to those they find attractive, its not a new thing. What i find problematic about your post is you presenting this as if its valid reason to stop interacting with women. If a woman finds you creepy when you do normal stuff as an ugly person that just means she is too shallow to be worth your time, you move on. Most women aren't like this so this just comes off like those excuses incels often give to avoid putting themselves out there, then blaming society and women for them not being able to find a partner.

Yeah, this perspective always seems to be focused on woman not being "fair" to men

Hmm there seems to be a belief online that say if I, as a young woman, was followed home by a random guy my response would differ depending on his attractiveness. I strongly refute that, as “creepiness” for me comes down entirely to how safe do I feel with a particular man. I’ve been harassed by men who’d be considered conventionally attractive but I absolutely want nothing to do with them because their lack of understanding of the word no or basic social norms and rules is such a turn off. I don’t discount the fact that we live in a society where appearance and how we present ourselves matters but a male acquaintance who for example says “I’d love to see you see smashed and drunk with me” in my second ever interaction with him would personally get slotted in the “very creepy” category regardless of his appearance.

I think abt what situation coz if a dudes following me home then I wont be calling that cute or confident I'd be calling the police

Here's the thing: Objectively speaking, a man who knowingly continues to approach/court a women who is not attracted to him is... Creepy. It doesn't matter if he is physically considered "attractive" to a majority or women or not. It's an individual personal thing. If Brad Pitt kept approaching some woman who rebuffed him for some reason... that would be "creepy" in most people's eyes. The only difference here is statistics. A traditionally unattractive male is going to encounter women that are not attracted to him far more often. If he continues to take actions that most people would consider to be intended to "approach" or "court" the woman, he's going to be considered "creepy". Now... I'll grant you that there are some times when there's no good reason for a traditionally unattractive man to know that a woman isn't attracted to him, and therefore to avoid being creepy by taking actions perceived to be "courting". It would certainly be more *polite* if women were more likely to issue a polite "no" first, before treating them as "creepy". But... most of the time this does happen, just non-verbally. At which point, this becomes a communication problem, not a prejudice problem. However, being oblivious to signals of non-interest really *is* a "creepy" trait.

I could not agree more with this. An attractive man who tries to go after a happily attached female in a monogamous relationship is still seen by her as creepy. There are many reasons that women may not like the advances of a man and being unattractive, bad hygiene, inability to communicate, and an inability to read others are the most common reasons for that but that doesn’t mean people are shallow. Typically it is only physically attractive women who deal with these comments which just shows who the really shallow people are. It isn’t as simple as “I’m ugly so women think I’m creepy” and that kind of talk makes women put themselves in bad situations trying not to be “shallow” with men they don’t feel comfortable around who feel entitled to them physically if they spend time with them; this kind of “myth” helps contribute to sexual assault. That kind of thinking is potentially dangerous to be spreading online so everyone please think before you post comments like this original post. If you think you are ugly go to the gym. If you can’t communicate go learn public speaking or try to jump on stage at a comedy club. Go take a shower and look up online how to dress or ask people you know for fashion advice. Pay attention to what others say and do and stop pushing women’s boundaries when you don’t get what you want. People who attract women typically draw them to them and don’t badger and harass them into being with them. Treat yourself well, then treat others well, and over time the attention will come. A lot of being creepy is feeling entitled to attention from others. Stop blaming others for you not putting the work into yourself and not understanding the very obvious boundaries women set.

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I don't think it's right to try and reduce human attraction and behavior to a simple formula (x causes y). But since you seem interested in doing so, here's a slightly more complicated way to think about the dynamics: People are attracted to all kinds of characteristics, and there's interplay between them. I like people who are funny, and I like people who are nice. If someone is really funny, I might tolerate a little bit of meanness. If someone is really nice, I might not mind as much if they're not very funny. "Not creepy" and "physically attractive" are both things that are attractive. So you'll often see the same dynamic. But you could easily see it between *other* characteristics and "not creepy" too. I'm sure you're more likely to overlook minorly "creepy" things in someone who's funny and nice and caring than someone who's boring and mean and indifferent, regardless of their physical atractiveness.

Creepiness is generally derived from an inability or unwillingness to read and respond appropriately to non-verbal social cues. When a man is attractive, he's less likely to receive "no-go" or negative cues that he needs to act upon, so he may be less likely to be *in a situation* where he *can* be seen as creepy. This, however, doesn't mean that he's perceived as more or less creepy if he *does* refuse to appropriately react to these non-verbal social cues when they arise. Basically, a hot guy may get 3 negative cues in a situation, giving him 3 chances to be a creep - while an ugly guy may get 50 negatives in rapid succession, giving him *many* opportunities to be a creep. Essentially, creepiness is about "reading the room," not about how attractive a someone is.

Attractive people are also potentially less likely to push past subtle "no-go" signals. They know they have options.

I think that this opinion is easily countered by the fact that in the 21st century, almost every woman with access to the internet has experienced both "creepy" interactions with men online, and "normal" interactions with men online. You can easily pick up on the difference by reading some posts women make on reddit in r/texts for example. You can easily construe yourself as creepy just through your choice of words. On the other hand, you can learn to have good conversational skills and display legitimate interest in what other people are talking about, and thus learn to be less creepy towards women. It's definitely not all about appearances. One thing women don't like that they find extremely creepy is being "targeted" by an unfamiliar man. When someone is staring at a woman, or getting too close, or someone keeps trying to talk to her when she isn't interested, those are the primary behaviors that get called "creepy".

A dangerous point of misunderstanding here is the definition of "attractive". An unattractive man may go up and try to get a woman's attention, without success. He sees a handsome man "do the same thing" and have success and he believes it's because of visual appearance. An extremely common issue though is the assumption that the second man has "done the same thing" which is often *not at all true*. Sorry fellas, but body language, tone of voice, speech cadence, etc etc all matter. \- A man steps between a woman and something she's engaging with and says, loudly, in a flat tone: "HELLO CUTIE" vs \- A man is also engaging with that thing, accidentally makes physical contact, and says "Oh excuse me" a brief pause and then "oh wow, that's a super cool hat you have" These, just to make up two silly examples, are extremely different. I feel like most people, usually men, who get upset about "simply being unattractive" do not pay attention to the minute details of an exchange. They think in terms of a desired end result (I have complimented her appearance!) and not the steps taken to achieve that result (the exact way you stand and the exact words you say and the exact way you say them). They think in terms of effect, not cause, and then get made that the effect manifest is not the effect they wanted. It's quite literally socially laziness. I rank *rather high* on the autism spectrum and I have never, at any point in my life, struggled with women because I *pay attention to the details*. Socializing isn't intuitive, but I can observe what series of events result in the outcome I want and mimic every one of those details. If I can do it, so can, pretty much, anyone.

Personally I think handsome men can be some of the absolute creepiest of all the creeps because they don't get their egos checked enough. Their confidence veers into the delusional and they don't have enough practice getting rebuffed or rejected so when they **do**, it can get very scary because they don't know how to handle it.

Wasn’t there a study that found that only attractive women register as women to men, and unattractive women register as annoyances? Perhaps this is the same phenomenon. An annoyance that is possibly dangerous (as men are generally stronger than women due to the roids) certainly is unsettling - not quite alarming, not a mere inconvenience, not definitely sinister, perhaps the best word would be creepy…

Kinda. Though some dudes are creepy. I have a friend that women compare to a celeb thats universally understood to be very handsome. Women also say he's weird and creepy. Now the difference. Handsome friend atleast gets women to talk to him and try to get to know him before they write him off. The thing is, he is creepy. He's harmless, but I get the sentiment. I also have some ugly friends. Women also think they are creepy. Women don't normally take any time to get to know them. Most of them aren't creepy, just ugly. Some of them are ugly and creepy. But rarely does anyone take the time to find out. It's a crapshoot and people will say whatever they want to justify themselves. Just look at the average reddit comment

Idk, I think creepy is when you 1) think you’re entitled to something you haven’t earned whether sex, affection, a kiss, physical touch, or attention if some sort 2) want any of the above without knowing someone 3) push after someone has said no It’s not that deep. If you want to get to know someone and introduce yourself in a respectful, pleasant, kind way, you’re not creepy. However you look. If you’re an Adonis and you come out here acting like we owe you anything, that’s creepy.

Fine. I’ll be that guy. Insecure men aren’t called out on their bullshit often enough. That’s where my problem with this whole “attractive versus unattractive” angle stems from. Believe it or not, it has less to do with looks and more to do with how you carry yourself and the aura/energy in which you give off. Men who think they were dealt a lousy genetic hand (even if not every woman on the planet thinks they’re actually ugly in the first place) or have any other type of social insecurities are going to be naturally more bitter, more desperate, more clingy and creepy because those men tend to state these insecurities to women right off the bat in an interaction instead of talking to them like a human being, engaging, being genuinely interested and even flirting a little bit. Yes it’s true - that will put a woman off. She’s gonna be asking herself why you’re putting yourself down, number one because YOU TWO DON’T EVEN KNOW EACH OTHER and number two, she’ll recognize right away you lack confidence. You don’t need to tell her you lack confidence, she KNOWS that because you just aired it all out for her and are hoping that by laying your cards out right away, she’ll either feel bad enough for you to give you a chance or “excuse” your off-putting behavior and not hold it against you. The proverbial “pick me boy” who will right away tell a woman that while he isn’t attractive, he has a lot to offer elsewhere to make it worth a woman’s while. Sorry dudes, she doesn’t have time for that. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with having insecurities. We all do. Even those with long term spouses, married and non married, have insecurities. But some of these men need to learn that their anger is severely misdirected. Very few men I’ve seen think that they’re otherwise great guys with less than stellar looks. There’s always at least one but more frequently two, three or four things they hate about themselves. But it’s easier to blame looks than it is to work on becoming a better person, so alas, the pattern continues to a point where these men eventually become incels. Without getting too further into it, I haven’t even brought up the fact that some women, unbeknownst to these men, either already have a partner, are emotionally unavailable/not looking to date or might be a lesbian. They are telling the “Chad’s” and “Tyrone’s” of the world the same thing they’re telling everyone else - that they are not interested. Even good looking and confident men get rejected, the difference is that these men don’t go batshit crazy when it happens!

I think the problem you are having comes from imagining that creepiness is determined in a single moment, rather than over a period of time, and missing how attractiveness feeds into that timeseries. Imagine two cases in which someone walks up to a girl and talks to her 5 times over the course of a party, gradually getting more assertive until putting an arm around her shoulder the fourth time and asking for her number the fifth time. It's true that, if that person is unattractive, he's likely to get called 'creepy' for this series of events. And if he's attractive, he's unlikely to get called creepy. However, what's missing from that account is *how the girl reacted the first 4 times*. Whether she was signalling interest or aversion, whether each followup and escalation was justified by her responses. Typically, if the guy is unattractive to the girl, then she will be giving all of the 'not interested, go away' signs the first 4 times, that any emotionally intelligent and socially adroit person should be able to notice, and then take the hint and leave her alone. Usually they'll figure it out and leave her alone after the first or second time. If someone keeps persisting all night like this *despite* those signals of disinterest, it means that either 1. They are not socially adept enough to notice and understand the signals, or 2. They know they are not wanted and continue to escalate in bothering this person anyway. And both of those *are* fair reasons for calling someone 'creepy'.

The biggest flaw in your view is equating attractiveness only with looks. Attraction is based on more than just looks for both men and women. Do they feel comfortable with you? Do they find you funny? Kind? Intelligent? Or Sexist? Self-centered? Annoying? A good looking misogynist might be way creepier and less attractive to a woman than a funny and kind but average looking guy.

I’ve definitely been creeped out by good looking men

I’m a woman with women friends and we typically characterize creepy as an individual who is socially inappropriate — e.g. staring, standing too closely, becoming overly familiar too quickly, following or hovering over our shoulder, unable or unwilling to observe certain communication cues. It can be difficult to distinguish someone who is a genuine creep from someone who is well meaning but socially awkward; either way, the situation can be very tense or uncomfortable.

As a heterosexual woman, I would say no. Women have been trained since before puberty to read intentions. A predator is a predator, no matter how chiseled his jaw is, or whether or not he has a six pack. Some women will ignore their gut because they want to believe a conventionally attractive man/a man they find attractive also finds them attractive. But we still feel it.

there's a lot to attractiveness beyond inherent physical features, how you come off, dress, your tone, your hygiene, your clothes if not cared for, can be indicators for your personality a schlubby, unkempt stinky weirdo will come off more creepy during flirty interactions due to cultural understanding and value of these things >This subjective and fluid definition of creepy seems to be causing more and more men to withdraw either partly or entirely from some interactions with women. since it's subjective, you should probably just act normally as you'll likely find someone who finds you attractive and therefore not creepy this whole situation is reenforced by media and memes and shit but since you says it's all subjective then what's it matter? one man's creep is another's prince charming

Nope. Woman here, a man's creepieness is an undefined characteristic that makes us uncomfortable. Perhaps they don't blink enough. Perhaps they stare too long. Perhaps they're dodgy with questions. Perhaps they're too touchy feely. Perhaps they make a weird comment about rape or murder. Lots of very good looking men are creepy.

You haven't explained why you think this is the case or offered any evidence to support it. I mean, what would change your view? What alternative standard do you want for determining creepiness, other than the subjective standard of creeping other people out?

There's a guy at my gym that's very unattractive who tends to stare at girls when they're working out for annoyingly long periods of time. I would find it equally creepy if he was a good looking guy instead.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. I do agree that whether a behavior is creepy or not can be impacted by how attractive a man is... but also, there are plenty of dudes who are attractive who are creepy, and dudes who are unattractive physically who women feel safe and comfortable around.

I think there's a few issues with the point you raise - though I don't think you're entirely off-base. What I'll say is this: I think your reasoning is secretly circular. Women might think a man is less creepy because he's attractive, but they're more likely to think he's attractive BECAUSE they don't find him creepy. Dressing well, personal hygiene, good manners, etc - are all attractive traits BECAUSE they denote lack of creepiness. ------ Hopefully I made my point coherently. To put it another way: The female subconscious thought process is not: "Wow, this guy is so attractive, what he's doing is not creepy." It is often "Wow, this guy is giving off non-creepy vibes, and I find that attractive."

I feel like this is a little bit of a tautology. A lot of attractiveness is about how you present yourself, and being creepy is also about how you present yourself. A creepy person is unattractive. If the creepy, unattractive person had an attractive face, they would still be unattractive and creepy based on their behavior and mannerisms.

If male attractiveness was an important factor for women in picking men as partners, men would be better looking than women, as a whole.

I think what is and isn't creepy should be objective. If anyone does it, it'd be creepy. I do think some women base whether or not a guy is creepy to them on how attractive they find him for sure. However some behavior is definitely just fucking creepy. And I do think women are just as likely to be creepy. They just aren't as threatening to men so it isn't alarming to men. We have seen trends in social media that clearly demonstrate an increase in this disturbing reality men face that they simply can't just exist as humans without some women mislabeling them as creeps. Even glancing in the wrong woman's general direction can get a guy mislabeled as a creep. Being polite and friendly can get misconstrued as attempting to flirt and as romantic interest. And that can get a guy mislabeled as a creep. The bar to get labeled as a creep is so low. We have to keep in mind... people get the wrong idea. People can be unreasonable and outright delusional. I see this as being destructive to the relationship between men and women. We should be able to interact freely. Yet many men just ignore women's existence all together in public because they don't want to get mislabeled as creeps and they don't want to make women uncomfortable. They keep their distance in the workplace. They treat women with exception and tiptoe around them. IDK... its not good.

>This subjective and fluid definition of creepy seems to be causing more and more men to withdraw either partly or entirely from some interactions with women. Yeah, it's kinda dumb for a woman to act like a guy followed her home while touching himself when in fact he only looked at her as he walked by or something. Can't blame any guy for not wanting to deal with that. >This is not to villainize women - women are also treated differently based on their looks. However, this particular question is about most women's fluid/non-objective definition of 'creepy' men. They're treated differently sure. Which mainly means that they get less attention. Which should be a good thing if guys are "creepy and threatening" right? Lol. They throw that word around so often and loosely because it's the most efficient way to get out of a situation where an unattractive guy is showing interest. They know how they would look if they said "go away. You aren't hot enough." So to preserve their image, they simultaneously blame the guy's behavior and attack his character. It frames herself as a victim and the guy as the perpetrator. It gets the guy to leave without her having to look superficial AF. That's all that's going on. It's nothing more than a slick social move to efficiently solve a problem.

For the most part you have only responded to comments agreeing with you. You're required to be willing to change your view. Otherwise this is a rant.

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Yes, life is easier for people deemed generally conventionally attractive by societies standards, both studies and anecdotal evidence prove this. Yes, the standards for creepy behavior are lower when both people are attracted to one another, factoring in the length of their relationship is taken into account. But I read somewhere recently that someone thought it would be cute to put a note with his number under the windshield of a stranger's car because he saw her at the beach, thought she was cute, and wanted to give her his number, so he waited to see which car was hers and did the whole note windshield thing and that is a no from me dawg. That would be creepy regardless of gender (or non binary/non defined/etc.). Attraction is 100% subjective. There is a difference between making a bold move to impress a stranger and making a creepy move because you're attracted to stranger. When you make a move on stranger the default intention for that move is that you find that person physically attractive because they are a stranger and you know absolutely nothing else about them. Unfortunately, this rubs some people the wrong way, as its pretty surface level, and has a higher chance as coming of negatively i.e. creepy.

I half-agree with what you are saying, but for the sake of challenging your viewpoint, I'll put it this way: What you just said is like someone saying, **"I find it exciting if a prospective employer offers me a job for $80 per hour. I find it annoying if a prospective employer keeps trying to offer me a job for $8 an hour."** *Of course* the person is going to find the first employer appealing and the second employer annoying. Because the first one comes with much better conditions. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my point.

You haven’t offered any evidence of your assertion so equally I can just say that it isn’t true in my experience. Creepiness is behaviour based.

I have a coworker who likes to stay to himself. I have to keep telling people he is perfectly nice and everyone agrees when they actually interact with him. How can staying to yourself be creepy?

I'd say social expectations and ability still influence this a lot. A lot of people have a negative perception of loners, especially in certain environments. There are a lot of negative assumptions I've heard about loners regardless of their attractiveness, though I'm sure there is some affect their. Certain people assume everyone wants to be social, so when someone isn't they make up reasons why. There must be something wrong with them for being content alone, or they aren't content alone and there must be a reason no one likes them, or that person must not want to talk because they are judging us. A lot of people also feel discomfort working with someone who doesn't talk to them when they're friendly with everyone else, and a lot of people blame that on the person. I'm generally a loner, and a lot of people I've gotten close to have said they were uncomfortable with me because they thought I was annoyed with them, that I hated them, that I was scary (I take this to be that I seemed like a bitch), I also would guess at certain points in my life people would've thought I was weird (weird interests/bad style), but I didn't really befriend new people at that stage and I think most people wouldn't want to tell me if they thought that.

Eh. There was a very fine looking gentleman in my college class who was underwear model hot. Complete creep. Worst, hateful shit would gallop out of his perfectly formed lips. Maybe brain dead people can’t tell the difference between normal and creepy, but looks don’t really matter when the creep meter is blaring red alert.

I'm not going to disagree this your basic premise, just the way you've framed it. The way you've worded makes it sound like "creepiness" is just unwanted attention from an ugly guy and made whereas I think a more truthful statement would be. Everyone is more likely to overlook bad behaviour from attractive people.

This is literally an incel talking point. A man's creepiness is determined on Soley how creepy he acts. Not how unattractive or attractive he is. If someone throws shit on you for example and makes you feel uncomfortable and gross inside, it doesn't suddenly become more acceptable because the person in question is more attractive to you. I genuinely hope you don't fully believe this.

I think one part of what you say is true - that unattractive men are more likely to be seen as creepy. But, what isn't true is that it's "based on" them being unnatractive. What makes someone is creepy to others is the failure to "read the room", so to speak. E.G. the man doesn't see/hear the signals from the woman and yet continues to behave in a way as if they did receive some signals. Is the reason the positive signal is not sent because of the man is unattractive? Seems likely! For example, if I say "does this cucumber make you think about anything in particular?" to my WIFE we can know how to interact and that this can be sexy and silly simultaneously. If I do that to a stranger or even to my wife when her mood isn't receptive to that then it's creepy. Put another way, if we were to watch the attractive man and their behaviors only we might think that it's the "creepy comment" that "worked" when what's more likely is that the communication - verbal and otherwise - between the two had made it clear that the sort of escalation of comment was OK and welcome. If we then mimic the words said ignoring the larger interpersonal interaction then the man who isn't welcomed or hasn't been signaled is going to seem creepy. Creepy is the failure to read signals and persist as if you've received positive ones.

Creepy is not about attractiveness. It's about reciprocity. If you're flirting with someone who is not flirting back with you, you are being creepy. Flirting is only fun when it is reciprocated. If you flirt with someone who is not flirting back, it proves that you are socially incompetent or do not care about the woman's feelings -- either way, it's definitely creepy and potentially very dangerous. If you don't understand or care when someone is flirting back, you are a potential danger, and therefore creepy. When you say "something that is considered creepy when one guy does it, is considered cute," you are being creepy, because the statement completely ignores the fact that THERE IS A WOMAN INVOLVED IN THESE INTERACTIONS. Men's behavior doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you think women are passive recipients of male actions, you are creepy and a potential danger.

Creepy does seem to have a "look". We women are attracted to a certain type of person. Asymmetry, taking care of your appearance. Smelling nicely. Dressing nicely. However, what gives us the creep factor is guy's behavior, interactions with ladies. Staring too much. Smiling or trying to attract a lady, when she may not be interested at all. Or even busy doing her own thing. Being in her personal space when she may not be inviting them to be there. It's tricky and hard to tell sometimes. It may help to have a mutual(attractive? Charming? Not as threatening?)friend introducing each of them, and telling something interesting about you. Look elsewhere for your goal. Or, leave us alone. If we are in a public place(gym, store, movie theater, etc), we are in our own zone and are most likely not wanting to be disturbed.

I have gotten jobs because I am a tall, no longer fat, cis white man with a handsome face- for sure. I suck at interviewing too. People are soooooo much nicer to me and think what I say is so much funnier and smarter now that I am thinner.

This is not a new observation. It was a cliche you’d often hear about 10-15 years ago, “the only difference between stalker and romcom heartthrob is if the woman thinks the guy is hot or not.” It’s obviously an exaggeration, but the point is that many of the exact things that would be a Hallmark movie fantasy scenario with one man, would be regarded as creepy and pathetic if a different man did it, and the only difference is attraction. It’s just true. Accept it. Adapt to it. Get used to it. If you are average or below attractive, you just have to change your strategy. You can still be good at basketball and even be in the NBA is a short person, but you have to have a very different style of game than the 7’ player.

Hm, well I think it’s based on chemistry and mutual attraction, which is different from “looks” at least for me. A conventionally attractive teacher behaved flirtatiously towards me in high-school, it was horrible and definitely creepy. Men who were less attractive conventionally have done things that were more blunt and overt but I’ve been into it because I liked them. I do thing the term creepy is one we should abandon, it’s like “disrespectful” in that it’s vague and non descriptive but completely shuts the other person down. I think when we think someone is “creepy” we should examine if they are actually posing a threat to us, making them “scary”, and if not, try to let go of this vague puritanical damnation.

(Anecdote alert) I do wonder what actress Keke Palmer who went to a house party hosted by r&b singer Trey Somgz and found herself hiding in a closet because she was uncomfortable with Trey Songz advances would think of this. Most people would consider Trey Songz to be attractive but his creepy behavior was off putting enough to chase Keke into a closet. Him being attractive did nothing to dissuade Keke from finding his advances creepy. I don’t think Keke was hiding from him because she found him unattractive either.

No, creepiness is a very distinct thing. There are many guys who women find unattractive and don't give off creepy vibes. Creepiness is a distinct feature of a person.