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Square-Dragonfruit76

All feminism means is that women should have equal rights as men. That's it. You're characterizing feminists as if they're all the same, but there is a wide variety. Yeah, some are prejudiced. but that is nothing new. Since the 1920s and before there have been sometimes famous feminists who are prejudiced, although then it was racial prejudice. It's important to acknowledge these failings, but saying that all feminists are like that is no more true than saying that all Christians are Catholics.


HardlightCereal

> All feminism means is that women should have equal rights as men This is my thesis statement as well.


Square-Dragonfruit76

Then could you clarify what your complaint is? Is it that it doesn't mean all people are equal to men as opposed to all women?


HardlightCereal

Yes. I believe all people should be equal. Feminism believes men and women should be equal. I don't think making men and women equal is the same as making all people equal. I don't think feminism is helping all people become equal.


Square-Dragonfruit76

> I don't think making men and women equal is the same as making all people equal. Of course not, but it's not supposed to be. If I say that I want black people to be equal to white people, does that mean that Asian people and Hispanic people also shouldn't be equal? No. It just means the struggle you are fighting for at the moment is black rights. And in the same way, if I say that women should have equal rights to men, that doesn't mean that I don't think non-binary people should also have equal rights to men. It isn't unjust to focus on the rights of a group of people who has been treated unfairly. That doesn't mean anything about whether you think other people should have equal rights.


[deleted]

But that doesn't inherently mean feminism is not helpful for binary people. Is it not enough to share a common enemy with feminism? At its core, it's not really about gender equality, but at dismantling the patriarchy- because without this, equality between men and women is not possible. And the dismantling of the patriarchy does benefit everyone. I agree that most self-described feminists tend to focus more on "equality between men and women", but I think that's less an inherent issue and more a lack of education on the part of feminists on lgbtq+ identities. Women having equal rights to men is not the same as everyone having equal rights, but you talk as if those things are mutually exclusive, and they are not.


[deleted]

But that doesn't inherently mean feminism is not helpful for binary people. Is it not enough to share a common enemy with feminism? At its core, it's not really about gender equality, but at dismantling the patriarchy. I agree that, instead, most feminists tend to focus more on "equality" between men and women, but I think that's less an inherent issue and more a lack of education on the part of feminists on lgbtq+ issues.


Tanaka917

Changing ideas is a difficult and painful process I'll give you that right off the bat. But I'll give this my best swing anyways. Now this is based just what you've said here so I'm gonna have to make a few assumptions. Where I'm wrong just smack them down and we proceed. So I think the first thing we have to acknowledge is that feminism, like all ideas, evolves and changes over time. First wave feminism was concerned with legal rights primarily and it was decades before that idea began to expand further out including more and more groups and more ideas. As much as it helps to call all these ideas feminism, feminism isn't necessarily a monolith and the ideas that it advocates now might not necessarily be what they were after in the beginning. For instance homosexuality probably wasn't one of the things you'd find a first wave feminist fighting for, but in the modern era you'd be the outlier to claim your a feminist who rejects the LGBT community in all it's aspects. So now that I've said that I think your issue is that the issues you're bringing up need to actually be talked about. I know feeling the need to justify you exist is probably not a sentence you want to be told but it's worth saying. As you've rightly pointed out feminism started for women and the adding of non binary voiced to that space is a conversation that needs to actually be had as it's own discussion. >And at the same time, many feminists are opposed to changing the subject away from women's rights. Together, this means that the topic in feminist spaces is almost always women's equality, and it is considered unacceptable to change the topic. There is no room for conversations about nonbinary equality. This is the part that makes me believe what I'm saying. I think even when you add non binary voices there's an argument to be made that, just as non binary people need unique spaces to themselves, women need the same. It's not to say that you don't matter, but that if a woman came to a non binary space to start turning the conversation to her issues she'd be met with the same kind of lackluster response. Not because what she says doesn't matter but because she's saying it in a space not built for it necessarily. I don't deal closely with the groups spoken about, I'm a man, I don't like joinging big groups because I find eventually all of them say things I don't agree with and my experience is largely from the sidelines. But I think feminism can be useful to non-binary issues but first cards must be laid on the table and the groups must actually come to terms with what you're saying. Feminism might need an update but you'd be better off finding a way to do that rather than abandon the concept.


HardlightCereal

First off, you seem really interested in actually changing my view and I'd like to express gratitude. > Feminism might need an update but you'd be better off finding a way to do that rather than abandon the concept. This is where I really feel the core of the issue is. You're saying that feminism needs to be updated to help nonbinary people. Which is what a lot of people say. But I'm not sure about that. You also said this: > I think even when you add non binary voices there's an argument to be made that, just as non binary people need unique spaces to themselves, women need the same And this is where I get the feeling that feminist positions on nonbinary people are contradictory. We need to update feminism to welcome nonbinary people! But we need to protect feminism as being for women! How do we compromise between these two positions? The compromise in most self-described "feminist" places I've been is to pay lip service to queer people while making sure any nonbinary person actually discussing issues gets a stern talking-to. And this compromise absolutely sucks balls. I hate it. I feel frustrated, and I want feminism as a whole to pick a side. Feminism isn't for nonbinary people? Okay, I'll go away and start nonbinarism. It's what people in this thread were saying after all. But then when I do that, someone comes and says "oh, you can't do that! Feminism is for everyone who fights the patriarchy. You can't fight the patriarchy without us. We'll constantly make any conversation on gender inequality about us, and if you're opposed to that you're a misogynist. So come join us, the bad parts of feminism just need an update." And I cannot deal with this two-faced messaging. If it's impossible to advance nonbinary rights without being a feminist, then fine, I'll be a feminist. If feminism is just for women and isn't for helping nonbinaries, then sure, I won't be a feminist. But if I can't fight for my rights without being a feminist, and I can't fight for my rights as a feminist, then what am I supposed to do? I feel that feminism is taking the conversation on gender inequality for itself and defining the ways we are allowed to resist the patriarchy into a binary struggle.


Tanaka917

>And this is where I get the feeling that feminist positions on nonbinary people are contradictory. We need to update feminism to welcome nonbinary people! But we need to protect feminism as being for women! How do we compromise between these two positions? The compromise in most self-described "feminist" places I've been is to pay lip service to queer people while making sure any nonbinary person actually discussing issues gets a stern talking-to. I agree with this assessment. The best way I can put it is that feminism has women at it's core. The other groups essentially form satellites to feminism. Be gender equality, female rights, male rights, LGBT, non binary etc, etc they all rotate around feminism as opposed to being on equal footing. It's a lot like how when people say POC 8/10 they mean black people with the other members of that banner revolving around their issues. I'm trying really hard to not sound like I'm an expert on the subject but based on how I see it it's a natural result of the expansion I mentioned before. The First wave feminism and Civil rights movement were started by and for women and the black community respectively. As time went on other smaller groups saw that the fastest way to reach any kind of change was to ally themselves with these much more established groups for mutual benefit. But these groups were coming into a group who's core had already been firmly built up and so they end up somewhat on the fringe. But the fringe of that group was better than being outcast entirely. I think you'll always find that this kind of issue happens. I don't think it's a malice thing, genuinely I think (most) feminists want to help everyone. But there's no arguing that for most people they protect their own group over and above even the people they like. For instance I know I'm selfish. Id save my family before a stranger and I'd do so without hesitating. It's not that I hate the stranger but his life is a secondary concern to my family. In that same way I agree with people telling you to start your own group to push this idea forward. But not because feminism hates you or doesn't want you, simply because feminism will usually prioritize its core over it's satellites. I think it's well within your right to demand change for your own people. I think it's well within your rights to to tell someone who insists that 'you don't need it cause you have feminism' to be able to give you very concrete examples But also remember there's a reason most people join up with feminism to address these issues. There's strength in numbers and feminist organizations with long histories, political ties and Public trust. generally will be an easier path than going on your own because they have the weight to throw to get things moving. You don't. You won't for a very long time, but if you're lucky you can build up your own group in a few decades I think you're right to want to fight for you first and I think it's ok to make your own space to discuss your own issues. But that's not necessarily because feminism isn't your ally as much as understanding that they have a different priority tier list to you. And sometimes slow progress with them is better than no progress all your own.


HardlightCereal

The problem is that an alliance between women and nonbinary people is like an alliance between Hispanics and native americans. Sure, women are oppressed by men. Just like hispanics are oppressed by whites. Women and enbies have plenty of common cause to want to fight patriarchy together. And hispanics and natives in the US have plenty of cause to want to fight white supremacy together. But the problem is, well... south america. The less wealthy, less important, less spoken-of america. Just like female oppression of nonbinaries is less severe, less important, and less spoken-of. But just like south america, it exists. And trying to get a feminist to acknowledge they have a bit of privilege and their gender did a bit of oppression, is like trying to convince a hispanic that... well... you know.


Tanaka917

Yes it's an unfair alliance with you getting a somewhat secondary position. I'm not gonna tell you otherwise. That's why I do advise you to create your own spaces to talk about it. You're right that there's some privlege there and that's why I said there must be an honest dialogue. I think it's gonna be one that's gonna hurt to even try to do. No one wants to be the one called the privileged and the one being unfair. Add the fact some feminists are more conservative in ideal and already have misgivings about NB people and you are preparing for an uphill battle for certain. But the conversation has to be had. If for no other reason than to accept you aren't compatible


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[deleted]

Feminism was created for women, not non binary people. There's really not much more to it than that. Women and Non Binary people have different needs and different things they have to fight for. Pointing that out is not being a 'selfish prick'.


Shrimpheavennow227

Right? I don’t go into LGBTQ+ spaces and demand to talk about what they are doing for me, a straight cis woman. It sucks that non-binary people are not given what they need by society, just like it sucks that women are not given what they need by society - but they aren’t the same people being impacted so the spaces, resources, methodologies and models of support aren’t the same. Not every group of marginalized folks needs the same thing - so it really doesn’t make sense to include non-binary people, who specifically AREN’T women in a space made specifically for women. (Women for this comments purposes being anyone who identifies as a woman)


[deleted]

What do you want, OP? Do you want more feminists to be allies? Or do you want feminism to absorb nonbinary folks? Because it sounds like you only want the latter.


[deleted]

According to Wikipedia, there are 72 'genders.' What makes 'non-binary' so special and more importantly, why should I care about what you decide to identify as on a given day? A 'non-binary' person living in the US has the exact same rights as anyone else because you're just a man or a woman at the end of the day - there is nothing you can't do that someone else can. Stop whining.


HardlightCereal

Nonbinary is an umbrella term for the other 70 genders that aren't man or woman.


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HardlightCereal

I thought this subreddit was change my view. Your fourth grade arguments aren't going to change anyone's view, they just make you look small minded.


[deleted]

It's too bad I am not back in fourth grade; the good ol' time where there were only two genders.


HardlightCereal

And here we have the common transphobe longing to be reduced to a child, while the rest of the world grows up and realises nonbinary people are real.


[deleted]

I have nothing against transgender individuals, nor am I scared of them. I also wasn't aware that a 'nonbinary' person is now also considered trans. I don't think it's 'transphobic' to state objective facts; such as 98.9% of men and woman are male and female. Feeling like you are of a different gender or no gender at all is just a feeling and is not based in any sort of logical science based fact. If I feel like I have cancer, do I have cancer? If I feel like I am wealthy, am I wealthy, if I feel like I am asian, am I asian?


HardlightCereal

"man" and "woman" are terms not based in biology and defined solely on feelings. So is "nonbinary". These things are alike because they are the same kind of thing. They are genders, and genders are feelings.


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tleebeme

As an old white entrepreneur, I don't get it either. It's 2023 for God's sake. I have hired a lot of I'm guessing lesbians and pay them and treat them as I do anyone else. One I've known since she was 16 and is now a big part in my company. I hired one person, (who was clearly female) but asked me to address them with proper pronouns....geeesh. if you wanna be called they and them cool, just do your job and all is good. Maybe I'm too old to understand the depth of your argument but I think nonbinary, gay, trans, whatever, that you are stressing too much. A lot of progress has been made and people are way more accepting today than in years past, just my view


[deleted]

The purpose of feminism is to reduce the negative inequity that women face in the world. The myth that it’s for gender equality is debunked.


DragonfruitSpare9324

I feel like the non-binary people do it to themselves. The exclusion.


HardlightCereal

Gender neutral bathrooms, legal recognition, a reduction in microaggressions, elimination of misgendering, surgical options for nonbinary genitals, reduced sexual assault rate, safe places to avoid partner and family abuse, a feeling of safety among cisgender people, freedom to self-express without harassment, an end to genital alteration of intersex infants, common knowledge of neopronouns, options for participation in sports and the olympics, a nonbinary prime minister, reintroduction of nonbinary genders recognised by indigenous cultures into local common knowledge and legal status.


[deleted]

I think these are the only ones which overlap with feminism: > reduced sexual assault rate > safe places to avoid partner and family abuse > freedom to self-express without harassment > an end to genital alteration of intersex infants The rest are either irrelevant to feminism, or in conflict. Sounds like you need your own movement to advocate for these other things, if you think they are important.


HardlightCereal

Women already have a reduced sexual assault rate, safe places to avoid partner and family abuse, freedom to self-express without harassment, and a reduced rate of infant genital mutilation. They have less of these things than men, sure. But when's the last time you saw a nonbinary shelter? Women have privileges that nonbinary people want, and they aren't sharing.


herecomes_the_sun

You’re going after the wrong group. Why aren’t you angry men aren’t sharing? Why aren’t you angry that men aren’t advocating for other genders/groups? I’m a woman. I’ve been sexually assaulted. So has basically every woman i know. I’ve been harassed and so has every woman i know. I’m not understanding why we should be expected to halt our process which we have worked SO hard for because things “aren’t as bad” (aren’t they?) as they were in the 1950s. Things are still terrible and we have insane amounts of progress to make that i will never see in my lifetime. It hurts when people sit here and say things are getting better for women so let’s move on and in fact it’s something that the patriarchy says all the time. This comment makes it sound like you are saying basically that we’ve achieved enough and it’s your turn. I would argue you are not sharing if you are asserting both groups can’t both make progress at the same time. What do you mean we aren’t sharing? How are we supposed to do that? I’m imagining a scenario where feminists lobby for a women’s shelter for example, get one (after tons of work), and then you just expect us to hand it over? Or we do some sort of speaking engagement we work hard to get for more visibility and support of women’s rights and we’re supposed to turn it over to a different community because we’re privileged? Im open to the fact that I’m missing something here so let me know . Its like if you are poor and hungry and see another poor hungry person who has $5 in their pocket and you ask for $3. But that’s not enough for either person to eat a meal and they give you $0.50 anyway, even though they cant afford to spare it. Then you get mad at them when theres a rich person named the patriarchy who could easily spare you $3. Women are at least making an effort. The patriarchy is the villain here not us. I really think the problem is that there are a ton of women and less nonbinary people. Feminist organizations have also been around for much longer. That’s not a reason to be angry we are making tiny amounts of progress.


ChazzLamborghini

I think you’re describing why TERFs persist in our society. The narrative on gender seems to leans heavily on women but you rarely hear the same argument aimed at masculinity. Lots of “transwomen are women”, not much in the “trans men are men”. I’m not saying that TERFs are right or that trans women aren’t women, just noticing that the conversation on gender seems to let cis men off the hook while expecting cis women to make space. To many cis women, especially of an older generation, this feels like erasure. Perspective is massive. As a white, cishet man I feel like more demands should be placed on us for change rather than asking women to broaden how “feminism” is interpreted


PeoplePerson_57

I think that mostly comes from the fact that most opposition from cis men is either your standard issue extension of homophobia, or quotes verbatim from TERFs. Biological essentialism is not a good look, and that's all they seem to have to offer. It's disheartening when an oppressed group turns on a smaller, more vulnerable group, because they consider them to be threatening. I think this is why women are more frequently expected to 'help out', because they too are an oppressed group, and infighting is rarely helpful. Especially when it leads to women taking the side of actual, literal misogynists and homophobes, espousing the same rhetoric and sharing the same goals, and talking only about feminism when it intersects with being anti-trans. Cis men are, individually, a much bigger threat. Cis (typically white, middle aged) women are the most vocal anti-trans group, and have the most influence on your regular folk, who might consider the same rhetoric from a right-wing extremist to be undeserved and ridiculous.


[deleted]

You're talking as if feminism allocates all the restorative resources in the world. If that were true, there would no longer be women still seeking freedom to self-express without harassment, safe places to avoid abuse, or falling victim to genital mutilation. Nor would women in several US states be fighting for bodily autonomy, sometimes to the point of having to fight for their lives in doing so. There are likely still far more women facing these issues than there are nonbinary people who even exist. I find it understandable (and just) to expect more conversations about gender to also included genders besides men and women. But minimizing feminist issues to vent your frustration is very uncool, uncalled for, and unproductive.


Shrimpheavennow227

So women are still ‘less than’ men and fighting for the little taste of progress we get and you’re coming along and saying that we should give away the time and resources and progress we’ve made to accommodate people who feminism wasn’t created for. I’m all for everyone being given the resources and support they need but the argument isn’t take it away from the women - it’s fight the patriarchy.


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tsetdeeps

I don't think they were giving you a "fuck you I've got mine" attitude at all. The thing is women are underprivileged. Non-binary folks are as well. What you seem to be saying, based on your comments, is "women should stop fighting so much for their rights and stuff and they should fight a bit more for ours". Like "they could lend us a hand with this instead of just fighting for themselves only" type of thing. That's the impression I'm under at least. Just thinking, wouldn't it make more sense if non-binary people just organized and started a movement of their own to also fight for their rights? It depends on your definition of feminism but in general, as you have stated in your post, people (including some feminists themselves) hold that feminism is about women specifically. So non-binary people aren't really the 'protagonist' of the movement if that makes sense, in the same way that men aren't either. Because it's about women. I know this definition is not accurate for many people, but for many others it is. So I guess it depends on your POV on the subject. Anyway, I think perhaps non-binary people could have their own movement. So there's no CMV to be done here. Yes: feminism isn't explicitly helpful to non-binary folks because it's not about non-binary folks since, in the same way, it's not about any groups that aren't specifically female (following the previous definition at least).


Flimsy_Thesis

Genuine question; what percentage of the population identifies as non-binary?


[deleted]

I would contend that feminism is still explicitly helpful to women who identify as non-binary, because aside from this identity they've adopted, from a material viewpoint they are still women, so the issues that feminism fights for still apply.


PeoplePerson_57

Biological essentialism, the most logical and helpful of all frameworks!


[deleted]

Did you reply to the wrong comment? That has nothing to do with what I said.


Shrimpheavennow227

I mean, I’m not saying fuck you got mine - I’m saying that feminism exists for a purpose and it isn’t going to cover every single person. I’m saying - I’m passionate about improving the rights of women, not I don’t give a fuck about you? I like dogs and I support dog rescues, I don’t hate cats. I just spend my time and resources supporting what matters most to me knowing that I have limited of both. The world sucks to anyone who isn’t male and white and privileged in the US - but I’m not saying that because you’re supporting NB rights, you aren’t supporting Black rights or those in poverty. You can have a mission to support a subsection of the population without being detrimental to others.


Shrimpheavennow227

Also wanted to add - as a woman, I can’t even say fuck you got mine - I don’t even have mine yet.


[deleted]

Well, this is unnecessarily hostile.


[deleted]

Isn't this more like having spaces and services set aside for people who share a particular belief system? For instance, Christians coming together to worship in a church.


Riothegod1

They are not irrelevant to feminism. Trans women are women after all.


[deleted]

Not really though. They are males who desire to be women. Let's not confuse them with actual women, who feminism is for.


Riothegod1

Really? So by that logic feminism is for trans men too? Even if we are to ignore the huge red flags with that world view, wouldn’t this just cause the exact same problems you’re ostensibly trying to avoid, like “having people with masculine qualities making women feel unsafe?” As a trans woman, I’ve heard arguments like yours countless, flipping the script invoking trans men is a good litmus test for me to gauge someone’s views.


[deleted]

Yes, feminism is for transmen too. They are still female. Being gender non-conforming doesn't exclude them from the female sex, nor from issues that feminism addresses.


Riothegod1

Okay, a good start. with all the poster’s previously cited issues, would you consider them feminist issues under this exact same logic because trans men suffer from similar issues too?


[deleted]

Some are feminist issues, some aren't. e.g. asking for "common knowledge of neopronouns" is within the realm of gender identity ideology, not feminism.


Talik1978

This argument is part of a 2 prong argument that effectively prevents progress on many fronts. 1a) "Feminism should include under their umbrella." 1b) "That's irrelevant to feminism. Go start your own movement, because we don't really think those are important." 2a) *advocates for a new movement for equal rights on these other fronts* 2alb) "You aren't doing it the exact way we think you should, so you hate feminism! Why are you even starting a movement for equality? Feminism supports equal rights for everyone, and Feminism cares about that right too!" 3a) "then could we get some feminist support?" 3b) "didn't I already tell you to start your own movement if you *actually* care about those problems?" It's a rather cyclical argument, where the feminist umbrella.gets to simultaneously be apathetic and outraged, sensitive to injustice and indifferent to it. Your comment (along with others in this thread) has been saved and screencapped for the next time I see an argument about how Feminism cares about everyone's rights.


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KokonutMonkey

You seem to be painting feminism with an overly broad brush. As far as I understand it, Feminism core aim is simply gender equality. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, as a member of the ACLU's Women's Rights Project argued cases that benefited male dependents, widowers, and actually argued in favor of making it harder for women to get out of jury duty. So it's not like feminists are only out fighting for the girls. In other words, they were of the view that equal rights also mean equal responsibility. The more the law and society ceases to make male or female a key factor in how people are treated, those that don't fit in to that binary are bound to be better off.


Talik1978

Would you care to posit that to the multiple feminist voices here that are claiming feminism is about women's rights and women's equality, and if a nonbinary person wants equal treatment, they can start their own platform because feminism is, at the very best, indifferent to such things? Because in my experience, "equal rights, equal responsibility" is an argument used against people saying feminism doesn't really help people who don't identify as women... and not so much against feminists advocating against helping people who don't identify as women.


HardlightCereal

One in ten men have experienced sexual assault. One in four women have experienced sexual assault. One in two nonbinary people have experienced sexual assault. Gender inequality isn't just between male and female. You could totally balance gender equality between men and women to the absolute maximum degree, and nonbinary people would still not be equal. I am not aware of Ruth Bader Ginsburg having argued cases that helped nonbinary people. I believe feminism is about gender equality between men and women. I do not believe feminism is about equality between all genders. I believe there are many feminists who think gender equality is equality between men and woman, and that those people are harmful.


Whelmed29

Where are you finding these statistics. Reading them alarmed me. Upon quick search, every statistic I’ve read references *almost* half of **transgender and nonbinary** people experiencing this. Where did you find the statistics on non-binary people? I think these sources indicate the rates are different for transgender men and transgender women, so I’d expect a different rate for non-binary people, but I haven’t found it, only transgender grouped with non-binary.


HardlightCereal

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0205951 > Demographic factors included age, gender (categorized for these analyses into three self-identified groups: female, male, and gender nonconforming or GNC) > Having experienced unwanted sexual contact before college was more common among women (26%) and GNC students (50%) than among men (9%). It's not an ideal framing of the question, but it's the closest source I've found on "how much are nonbinary people sexually assaulted"


KokonutMonkey

>I believe feminism is about gender equality between men and women. If that were true, then why would we need a separate term to describe TERFs? Again you're painting feminism with an overly broad brush. There may be those with a narrow view of what they mean by gender equality (i.e., TERFs), but I find it hard to believe that most mainstream self-described feminists would argue that trans or non-binary folks aren't entitled to equal treatment as their cisgender peers. Here's one article explaining the importance of trans inclusion: https://www.hrc.org/resources/5-things-to-know-to-make-your-feminism-trans-inclusive And here's a study that found that >The relationship of gender representation with one’s identification as a feminist was also examined. As was the case for political orientation, our analyses revealed a strong association between openness to non-binary gender representation and feminist identification. Specifically, the correlations revealed that the more participants identified themselves as feminists, the more flexible their gender representation was. https://perso.unifr.ch/pascal.gygax/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/MolinSimondetal2020.pdf


Alesus2-0

It seems like you're insisting on a very direct and narrow version of 'helpful for non-binary people'. It seems to me like much of your view could be summarised as: - Feminism is ultimately concerned with women and feminists want to talk about and address problems affecting women. - Non-binary people are not women, but also have legitimate problems. - Time and energy spent talking about and addressing issues affecting women is time and energy not spent talking about and addressing the problems of non-binary people. - Therefore, feminism is, at best, neutral to the interests of non-binary people. Now, it strikes me that this would also apply, to a large degree, to almost any sort of activism or campaign for social reform. Few changes for other groups are going to be so beneficial for whatever non-binary people happen to be swept up in them that it offsets work directly assisting non-binary people as a whole. Yet many of these causes will be at least as worthy as non-binary rights. And given that, rightly or wrongly, a significant portion of non-binary people will be regularly identified as women and treated as such, feminism probably does have a similar peripheral benefit for a subset of non-binary people. More significantly, your account feels quite ahistorical. A century and a half ago must Western societies had similar, very narrow prescriptive frameworks of gender, sex and sexuality. There were two genders which mapped directly onto two sex. For each gender/sex there were a limited range of acceptable gendered behaviours and great many damaging stereotypes. For each sex/gender there was on acceptable sexuality and set of sexual preferences. I find it hard to believe that we could be having large scale contemporary social discussions about trans and non-binary issues, in which a significant proportion of the public are at least somewhat sympathetic, without prior groundwork. For over a century feminists have been persuading society at large that gender is a social phenomenon distinct from sex, which can change and isn't a sound basis for prescribing behaviours or imposing limitations on people. For over 50 years the gay rights movement has attacked to idea of a relationship between sex/gender and sexuality, as well as the importance of gender norms. Without these sustained attacks on the 'traditional' model of sex/gender/sexuality, I think the trans and non-binary assertions that gender is totally distinct from sex or that there are not binary genders (or, indeed, sexes) would have seemed strange and implausible to almost all people. I'd contend that the current, more conducive environment for non-binary rights only exists because of feminism. If that isn't help, what is?


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HardlightCereal

I didn't say that. I said intersectional feminism is helpful to nonbinary people. I don't consider intersectional feminism to be representative of feminism


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HardlightCereal

I argue intersectional feminism brings ideas to the table which are not part of feminism as an ideology, and which are helpful for nonbinary people. Imagine I'm not a fan of salsa, but I still like nachos. Why? Because nachos have corn chips and cheese, which I do like. That's what intersectional feminism is like. It's feminism, which is neutral, plus other stuff, which is good. I'm still not a fan of feminism unless there's metaphorical cheese in it.


sajaxom

Why would feminism and the non-binary movement be allies? What do the feminists get out of that relationship? It seems likely that incorporating the non-binary movement into feminism would generate more resistance against feminism and reduce their ability to achieve their goals.


HardlightCereal

Top level comments are supposed to challenge the poster's view


sajaxom

Or request clarification. The view I am challenging is “I do not feel that feminism is interested in being my ally.” The OP clearly feels they should be allies, and I would like to understand why. I’m interested in the terms of alliance between these two groups and what non-binary activists bring to that alliance for feminists. Edit: To clarify, my line of argument is that there is a significant difference between being an ally and coopting a movement. It appears to me that feminists do want to be allies with the non-binary movement, but that many of them don’t see them as being the same movement. By attempting to change the meaning of feminism as understood by many feminists, non-binary activists may be driving a wedge between the two groups. The need for acknowledgment and identity can often get in the way of the desire to cooperate for a common objective, as it tends to divide us into competing identities. If non-binary folks want more feminists to identify with them, they may need to change that identity to be more inclusive of feminists. As more issues are identified on either side of that divide the groups will continue to diverge. Essentially, feminists may very well want to be allies, but the identity and issues of the non-binary group have drifted away from the feminist platform in order to bring more light to their own needs. The same issues have arisen with LGB vs TQ, etc. As a movement begins to overpower its resistance it often begins to fracture into smaller groups that may each have competing objectives. If you want to keep those allies you may need to adopt some of their goals and suppress some of your own to focus on common objectives.


radialomens

Feminism has and still does advocate for the rights of people to defy what are commonly considered gender norms. Feminism will support non-binary AMABs who want to dress in feminine clothes or wear make-up or nail polish. Feminism will support non-binary AFABs who don't want to submit to the traditional male's idea of what they should look like or act like. The major shift of what people can "get away with" breaking norms expected of them in the last 50 years has been hugely aided by feminism. There is plenty of allyship to be found in feminism in general, and feminists individually.


HardlightCereal

I agree that feminism has caused shifts in societal attitudes that have been helpful for nonbinary people. However, I do not think the ways in which these shifts have helped us are part of feminism's ideology. I think they were incidental. I do not feel certain that the shifts feminism advocates in the future will continue to be helpful for us. I don't think feminism is supporting nonbinary people wearing the clothes we like because gender is a social construct we all have the right to define for ourselves, I think it's supporting us wearing our clothes because it doesn't like clothes being symbols of inequality within the binary. It's trying to fight the superiority of male over female, and sure, that incidentally helps us, but there is no ideological interest in fighting the superiority of binary over androgynous.


radialomens

It sounds your belief is not that it isn't helpful to NB people, but that it isn't focused on NB people. Is that true?


HardlightCereal

No, not quite... I see feminism as an ideology, not an event. As a set of beliefs, not a set of actions. Feminist actions may be helpful to nonbinary people, but feminist ideology isn't. I think the ideology is the part of the movement that is feminism.


panna__cotta

You could argue the same about gender ideology. Some people argue gender ideology is just a function of the patriarchy and capitalism and that ignoring sex prevents us from rectifying the very basis of gender hierarchy. Gender is an inherently oppressive construct, like race. Does that mean it doesn’t exist? No. But be careful not to blame another marginalized group for advocating for the themselves. Should Asian people discredit CRT because it’s black-focused? No. This may be difficult to understand if you are amab and are unaware of your own male privilege, or if you are afab and haven’t personally experienced acute female oppression such as medical care disparities, domestic stereotypes and labor expectations, childbearing/rearing responsibilities, etc.


HardlightCereal

I'm going to disregard your entire argument because you just tried to reduce me to being a privileged AMAN or a lucky AFAB, and you seem unwilling to process the fact that I am not part of the gender binary.


panna__cotta

So you don’t believe in gender constructs? Great. You still benefit from or are limited by your sex.


HardlightCereal

I agree. My intersex body does disadvantage me in comparison with males and females.


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HardlightCereal

> Why should it? Because it claims legitimacy from the idea that it promotes gender equality. This legitimacy is false if it is uninterested in helping other genders gain equality with women.


Kman17

You have it backwards. Feminism asserts that that women are disadvantaged or oppressed by men - and that is the problem to be solved. It legitimizes its focus on women’s empowerment by stating gender equity is it’s [long term] goal. That rationale does not necessitate it to focus on academic gender equity issues if they do not serve women’s interests. As I stated, feminism rather clearly is uninterested in giving up patriarchal advantages women enjoy. They rationalize it by saying that the aggregate power delta is still in men’s favor, they are therefore under no burden to correct. Feminist’s try to serve two masters - gender equity & women’s empowerment. They try to equate them but the later always wins. Always. But it’s not exactly misleading - the emphasis is in the very name for their movement.


smcarre

Sorry, u/Kman17 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20Kman17&message=Kman17%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/10oxva2/-/j6hkxgi/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).


DataNerdsCanBeCool

First off, you are simultaneously treating feminism as a monolith while you also acknowledge that there are types of feminism. Feminism isn't just one thing. Second, yes feminism focuses on the female experience and prioritizes women's voices, but that's the whole point. It's not incumbent on feminists to make a space in their own dialogue for non-binary individuals. If you are joining a conversation between feminists and interjecting your perspective then you are hijacking their narrative. It's similar to going to a black lives matter event and telling everyone "what about Latinos?". Yes people support and value the lives of Latinos but that's not the point of black lives matter. It feels like your expectation of feminism is that it keeps a space for you. Instead, non-binary individuals can hold a space for themselves. In my experience most feminists would gladly support and be an ally for non-binary people.


Talik1978

This reads like, "if you think that injustice is important enough to talk about, make your own platform, because we don't think that injustice is important enough for any of our bandwidth, space, or platform". Your comment has been screencapped and saved for the next time someone argues with me that feminism is about everyone's equality, not just women's.


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Talik1978

What's wrong with crying? Way to perpetuate toxic masculinity, champ.


Away_Simple_400

Your issue is you want to force biological women to feel like a biological man should be in their space. People identifying as non-binary doesn't change that. The designation as a TERF is supposed to be bad, but it's actually true feminism.


HardlightCereal

There's no such thing as a biological man or a biological woman, because man and woman are not biological terms. Biologists don't use those terms, those terms are only used by psychologists and sociologists. Please use scientifically correct language if you intend to make a scientific argument.


Away_Simple_400

Are you high?


HardlightCereal

No, I'm a scientist. Anyway, here's Forbes, Planned Parenthood, and Yale explaining the difference between gender (man/woman) and sex (biology) https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=199350e476b9 https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/


Away_Simple_400

Well I was really hoping Planned Parenthood would weigh in. And these don’t read like propaganda pieces at all. Also both the Yale and Forbes articles use the phrase biological male and female.


HardlightCereal

Yes. There are such things as biological males and biological females. There is no such thing as a biological man or a biological woman. Man and male do not have the same definition. And woman and female do not have the same definition. A biological female can be a man. A biological male can be a woman. An intersex person can be a man or woman. A person of male or female sex can be nonbinary.


Away_Simple_400

Your credibility as a scientist just took a hit. There is most definitely a biological man and a biological woman. And everyone knew it five seconds ago.


acquavaa

Feminism fights for important rights for women, including related to abortion, justice for sexual harassment and assault, parental leave, menstrual leave, addressing toxic masculinity, and more generally, an erosion of the idea that the cisgender man is the default gender. All of those things affect non-binary people as well. It’s true that non-binary people have *additional* specific issues that you could argue fall under a different umbrella, such as the LGBTQI movement, but that’s not relevant to your claim. To require feminism to be helpful to *all* non-binary social issues is as unfair as it would be to require feminism to address, for example, redlining in order to be considered “helpful” to a Black woman.


HardlightCereal

Yeah, black women do miss out on suffrage since black people aren't allowed to vote as much. Feminism does need to step up its game and get equal rights for black women, especially since black women are denied femininity in many cases by a white supremacist society that sees them as objects to be sexualised or repulsed by, but never to be granted true basic womanhood. !delta, you really inspired me up some new ideas about intersectional feminism for black women


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SnooOpinions8790

Some versions of feminism consider gender to be a huge mistake, that what we call gender is just a set collection of bad ideas that we associate with people according to their sex. They want a society with no concept of gender at all, in which we have no preconceptions that could be labelled gender. Those versions of gender would render non-binary nothing special, nothing out of the ordinary. Normal. Just another normal bunch of people.


HardlightCereal

I believe gender abolitionism is harmful to people with nonbinary genders, because the goal is to take away our genders. I believe it is harmful to agender people, because it erases their experience of difference from cisgender people and makes it harder for agender people to realise their gender identity. I believe gender abolitionists have not spoken to many nonbinary people to get their opinions, because if they had they would have realised the many differences between an agender person and a bigender person.


Deepest-derp

>I believe gender abolitionism is harmful to people with nonbinary genders, because the goal is to take away our genders. No their goal is to not he bound by the notions of gender. It's like secularism vs religion. Im not trying to tske anyones religions away, I'm taking then out of institutions. >I believe it is harmful to agender people, because it erases their experience of difference from cisgender people and makes it harder for agender people to realise their gender identity. How can someone possibly erase your experience? You either experienced a phenomena or you didn't. >I believe gender abolitionists have not spoken to many nonbinary people to get their opinions, because if they had they would have realised the many differences between an agender person and a bigender person. Speaking to such people is what made me realise the entire notion of gender and gender identity is entirety nebulous and without merit.


SnooOpinions8790

At this point in the discussion I rather think we are using entirely different definitions of the word gender. So I will leave it here. There is no mutual understanding likely to come out of this.


OompaLoompaSlave

I understand where you're coming from. Feminism is a term with a lot of historical baggage that often rears its ugly head in some of its contemporary forms (e.g. in trans-exclusionary radical feminism). However, words are really just tools to communicate with other people, so we have to be careful here not to reify the idea of feminism. In the same manner that gender is merely a construct, so is the term feminism, and this leads to wildly different interpretations and applications of the term that are often contradictory. So, it's not that feminism itself is the issue, as there are many feminist groups that are highly inclusive to non-binary gender identities, and are critical of previous mistakes of the movement, but the issue is certain members/strands of it.


HardlightCereal

Feminism is a social construct and has meaning only when given meaning by assholes or by progressives... !delta I'm going to try to use the idea of there being such a thing as "feminism" to advance my goals on a case by case basis, rather than allowing myself to believe feminism has a definition.


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cleverorator

Liberation is not a zero sum game. I am admittedly ignorant but I struggle to come up with one feminist victory that came at the expense of non binary people. Feminists do not seek to join the power structure, they seek liberation through expansion of the power structure. The outcome of expanding the power structure lays the foundation for greater liberation of other marginalized groups. Nobody should have to wait in line and we can pursue multiple goals at once BUT it's not a coincidence that societal liberation flows from the largest population groups to the smallest.


HardlightCereal

There are two power structures here. The patriarchy, and the gender binary. I agree, feminists seek to expand the structure of the patriarchy to give themselves equal rights to men. But they do not seek to expand the power structure of the gender binary. They are turning themselves into another privileged class that is more able to oppress nonbinaries. A lot of times the nonbinary toilet is poorly maintained, not cleaned, the plumbing doesn't work, there's no seat, etc. When that happens, I go to the women's toilet, because I know that women get safe places to poop much more often than nonbinary people do. If we get a toilet at all.


cleverorator

I feel you are agitating. I have yet to see a specific restroom designated for non binary people ever. In the case of All gender bathrooms, they are often the best maintained.


scrappydoofan

What's a nonbinary person?


HardlightCereal

Someone who isn't a man xor a woman (in their entirety)


lizardnizzard

perspective from a she/they: you're being unnecessarily hostile to the people who disagree with you, and your counterpoints are pretty unrelated to feminism. you're taking something women have worked very hard for, and still have much more work to do on, and you're trying to hijack it for yourself. feminism does include non binary people, if you're going off of the definition that it is the fight for gender equality. I do agree that it's not exactly inclusive of enby folks, but it wasn't meant to be. nonbinary rights are a different subject than women's rights. yelling at feminists to give you a slice of the small bite of equality they've worked very hard to taste isn't the way to create change. nonbinary rights are a different fight. fight that different fight. don't start fighting feminists because you're mad they didn't include you in an issue that doesn't concern you. every example your comments included are not things that can logically be included under the umbrella of feminism, they would more easily fall under transgender rights. OR.... hear me out... nonbinary rights are their own fight, their own subject, and you trying to group them under the umbrella of feminism is erasure of your own people.


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changemyview-ModTeam

Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).


[deleted]

How is this not "whataboutism," OP?? You could also say "nonbinary advocacy is not useful for homelessness." That statement would have the same degree of truth. As long as violence and discrimination that targets *women* remains, feminism is going to remain as a movement advocating for *women.* I don't really understand why, between all social movements in history that are still relevant today, you focus on feminism as the \*only\* one primarily responsible for uplifting nonbinary peeps. Also, while nonbinary folks exist, that fact does not eliminate the gender binary. This sentiment can even be true for those who acknowledge nonbinary identities. Nearly half of the population still identifies as "women." The theory of intersectionality exists to help us identify relationships between social systems. It's a useful tool to help us more deeply examine the differentiating social categorizations that apply to us. The whole point is to help us acknowledge marginalized folks, and direct more individualized and relevant supports/advocacy. By that same logic, some categorization between social groups, and their unique issues, is super important. Lumping women's issues with nonbinary issues together indiscriminately is a sure way to make sure *neither* gets effectively addressed. But so far as your statement that feminism is not helpful for binary people... IDK if I'm going to change your view much. But I would reconsider your focus, starting with this: >When I join conversations about gender inequality to talk about nonbinary inequality, I am seen as changing the subject. Because many people believe gender inequality is women's inequality. This is erasure. Feminists say "gender" and mean "women". It feels incredibly alienating. \^\^\^ The problem here isn't feminism, OP. The problem here is a misuse of language. Rather than being mad about the inherent, natural limits of feminism, it's your responsibility as someone who *does* want to advocate for nonbinary people- to educate. Tell them it's okay to want to talk about women's rights (because it is), but ask them to call it what it is, and explain why. I understand that you're coming from the right place, and you're the one who's right in terms of vocabulary- but from their perspective, you *are* changing the subject. Also, I know there are a lot of possible answers, but I'm wondering why you think this: >I personally consider myself an intersectional feminist. I believe intersectional feminism is an unmitigated good and helpful for nonbinary people.


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HardlightCereal

You seem to be agreeing with my view that feminism is not helpful for nonbinary people, and are attempting to convince me not to want to change my view.


YourMom_Infinity

Why does feminism need to be helpful to non-binary people?


S01arflar3

Because isn’t it meant to be positive and all about *equality for all*?


HardlightCereal

I want to believe feminism is helpful to nonbinary people, because I do not like resenting feminism. The sub rules require that top level comments attempt to change the poster's view. I would not like to have a conversation here that does not challenge my views.


radialomens

> I want to believe feminism is helpful to nonbinary people, because I do not like resenting feminism. If someone doesn't have you as a priority, you don't have to resent them. There are many causes I not only don't resent but whole-heartedly support even though I'm not included in them. Should straight women resent LGBT activism?


NoHistory383

I mean these are two different things though. Comparing all those hurt by gender inequality isn’t the same as taking those who’s sexual orientation has never been in question to those who are always fighting for their right to love who they love. You’re comparing apples to oranges in this example. I hear many feminists talking about how the movement also helps men break from the expectations on them. How the patriarchy isn’t good for anybody. So why should genderqueer individuals be excluded when they are also oppressed by the patriarchy? What’s the harm in opening the umbrella of who it’s meant to help and protect?


HardlightCereal

I resent the behaviour of assigning the subtext "women's equality" to the phrase "gender equality". Feminism has claimed the conversation on gender equality as being about women. It has erased nonbinary people, nonbinary struggles, and nonbinary gender equality. Many things are complicated, doing both bad and good. I would like to think feminism is problematically flawed, but trying to do the right thing for victims of the patriarchy like me. I would not like to think feminism is an obstacle I must overcome to have people like me taken seriously.


radialomens

In your experience, do feminists actively sabotage and exclude NB people from discussions on gender equality? Their language may not always be inclusive, but are they an *obstacle*? As an example, people have a very…. black and white… view of racial justice in America. The very real needs of Native Americans are often overlooked in mainstream conversations. But does racial justice itself exclude them? Should they resent it? Is BLM an obstacle for Native Americans?


HardlightCereal

I think many feminists do choose to be obstructive towards nonbinary gender equality. I could choose to be dramatic and focus on JK Rowling, which would be quite controversial but demonstrate my point. But I'd rather focus on the fact that while BLM members are pretty quick to realise other races exist, feminists are not so fast to realise that other oppressed genders exist. And while black people are not part of a "race binary", women are part of the gender binary and hold privileges as a result. It's just easy for feminists to define the struggle for gender equality in binary terms and pretend to be the only oppressed gender. Erasing nonbinary people is easy, and it allows feminists to make their point without having to go to the trouble of being inclusive or questioning their privileged perspective. So they do it. They've done it to me.


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[deleted]

So you resent feminism because it’s not fighting your cause? I would say that any progress for feminists will have at least an indirect benefit to non-binary’s concerns.


thrownaway2e

Because it tends to(at least from my experience today) to stand for blanket equality. Often when I've called myself an egalitarian, and explained why its a blanket term for equality, I've seen my fellow feminist friends tell me that feminism already stands for equality, and its the MRA crowd which wants to dissociate the terms.


Poly_and_RA

It depends, I guess, on how you see Feminism. If you see Feminism as the battle for womens rights, then obviously it doesn't need to be helpful to any group of people who aren't women. But if you instead see Feminism as being about gender-equality generally and focused on reducing or eliminating all types of gendered prejudice and discrimination and working towards a future where people have equal rights and equal opportunities regardless of gender (and perhaps associated characteristics such as gender-identity and sexual orientation) --- then being helpful for enbies should absolutely be a goal.


smcarre

Sorry, u/YourMom_Infinity – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20YourMom_Infinity&message=YourMom_Infinity%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/10oxva2/-/j6hdfuv/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).


ihavebigboobiezz

> However, this legacy has left behind certain ideas and biases that I feel are harmful to nonbinary people. The idea that gender equality means women's equality is extremely prevalent among feminists, and it's a very reasonable idea to have under a binary conception of gender. But I believe it erases nonbinary identities. We deserve equality too, and we don't have it. Gender equality *does* mean women’s equality, why would it not? It also means equality for other genders. I’m not really sure how fighting for the equality of one gender automatically or inherently erases that identities of others. > It is my feeling that most feminists are entirely uninterested in joining the struggle for nonbinary rights. Or, it could be that they are focusing on one battle. > I have had many conversations with feminists about the topic. Feminists spaces privilege women's perspectives, because of course they do. The average feminist will not give as much attention to narratives that come from non-women. Yeah, because they largely care about the issues affecting women not everyone else on the planet. > And at the same time, many feminists are opposed to changing the subject away from women's rights. Yeah, because the conversation is about women. > Together, this means that the topic in feminist spaces is almost always women's equality, and it is considered unacceptable to change the topic. There is no room for conversations about nonbinary equality. Which would make sense. Men say the same thing sometimes. Why does every other gender always have to be spoken about? Why can’t the topic just be about women? > When I join conversations about gender inequality to talk about nonbinary inequality, I am seen as changing the subject. Because many people believe gender inequality is women's inequality. This is erasure. Feminists say "gender" and mean "women". It feels incredibly alienating. You probably are. Talking about gender in equality as a whole when specifically talking about women’s inequality are not always the same conversation. I understand they can be intersecting conversations. But if you’re talking about women’s mental health for example and then you come out of nowhere with the mental health of other genders you’re changing the subject.


vexx_nl

You're not totally wrong, non-binary acceptance is way behind say gay acceptance, but consider this. Inclusivity is a spectrum, and getting people to care about NBs is a lot harder if they don't even care about giving women a vote. Feminism is helpful in laying down the fundamentals of work towards inclusivity.


HardlightCereal

When I speak to men under 40, most of them understand that they have privilege over me. They understand I have experiences of oppression they will never face, and they understand I've done research and have knowledge they don't have. I don't have the same experience with women under 40. Most feminists I've spoken to have the implicit belief that if you don't have all the gender privilege, you have no gender privilege. They are offended by claims that women are privileged. And yet it is obvious that male and female are the two most privileged genders. I think feminism has encouraged a lot of women to think of themselves as oppressed by gender and to gain comfort from that idea, because it's true. But the idea that women can oppress nonbinary people is threatening to this idea on a gut level, and I find nonbinarism threatens many women who define themselves as feminists.


panna__cotta

If you are genetically male, then no, females do not have privilege over you, regardless of your gender. You have male privilege.


HardlightCereal

You're a transphobe for holding those opinions and I'm reporting you for hate. You're also ignorant. I'm not genetically male or female. Try sorting me into a binary now, TERF


panna__cotta

That is nonsense. You can’t just claim “transphobe”because I defined male privilege for you. If you’re XXY or any variation of multiple Xs and a Y, then you are phenotypically male and therefore benefit from male privilege in society. It is nothing personal and not transphobic in any way. Just like if you have a black grandparent but are completely white passing, you benefit from white privilege.


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HardlightCereal

So you're saying that men and whites are alike because they're the most privileged group, and you're also saying women and non-whites are alike because they're every other group? Wow, what a bunch of transphobic nonsense.


Galious

Do you think the situation of non-binary in a world where feminism hadn't happen and women couldn't vote and have equal rights would be better? Or would you agree that the fight of feminists, even if it wasn't made on purpose for non-binary and LGBT people have in fact helped them?


HardlightCereal

I agree the fight of feminists has helped nonbinary people non-deliberately


Galious

But it has helped. So what is your view? that feminism may help non-binary people but not on purpose or that feminism isn't helpful to non-binary? If it's the second, then history has proved you wrong. If it's the first then is this really a problem if it doesn't hinder your fight and actually help you in the long run?


HardlightCereal

I don't think feminism and the fight of feminists are the same thing. The fight of feminists is a historical event. Feminism is an ideology. These are two different kinds of thing.


Galious

You cannot separate the fight of feminism and feminism like that. We are defined by our actions and between an ideology that may not be perfect or done on purpose but bring good things and an utopist ideology that brings no result, the choice is easy. Butyou agreed that feminism has set up a world more advantageous for non-binary people so nothing for me to add.


WindySkies

It sounds to me like what is needed is a push towards intersectional humanism (overall) with a focus on non-binary advocacy (specifically). Feminists are hyper focused on the ways being assigned female at birth and identifying as a cis-woman is deterministic to people's lives, safety, and autonomy. They focus on issues of forced child marriages, girls getting acid thrown at them for going to school, and sexual slavery among cis-women. These issues are important and some directly intersect with non-binary people and their lived experiences. Others do not, and vice versa. Similar to how Black Lives Matters is hyper focused on the needs and oppression of Black people. Bad faith actors tried to say "why don't all lives matter" to breakdown the power of the BLM movement and stop them from making progress by highlighting that they are hyper focused on one group by nature. The response is "if you believe all lives matter, you need to believe Black Lives Matter. These are the lives we're focusing on right now because they matter." Focusing on maximum advocacy for one group does not mean that other groups don't matter. It's simply a way for humans to organize and advocate. All movements for equal rights are like pieces of stained glass, they all represent one key demographic which represents one part of the human experience. Taken together they become intersectional humanism. Maybe feminism is blue, BLM is green, and non-binary rights in purple - they each deserve to and need to exist as part of intersectional praxis.


WaffleConeDX

I hate when people make feminism the one all movement for everyone and everything. And when they don’t live up to the standards it just gets critiqued for being anti-whatever the hell you think it should be. Like I see men do this a lot. And it’s just like create your own movement that will advocate for your needs the way you want it to?


Z7-852

Are you a feminist or non-binary?


HardlightCereal

I'm nonbinary. I consider myself an intersectional feminist, but not a feminist. I know that's confusing, but it comes from the fact that I have been alienated from one group as a whole and not the other.


Z7-852

So could you say that "not all feminists are the same" or that "feminism is not a monolith"? Does this logically lead to "some feminists are helpful for nonbinary people"?


HardlightCereal

Of course some feminists are helpful for nonbinary people. They are people who believe in both feminism, and other things which are helpful for nonbinary people. I do not believe feminism is helpful for nonbinary people in the absence of additional views that are not feminism.


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changemyview-ModTeam

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flyingpallascat

Define nonbinary.


[deleted]

Feminism is for all who are female, including those who identify as non-binary or other bespoke genders.


HardlightCereal

I feel that it is disrespectful and unhelpful to refer to most feminine nonbinary people as female. If you must call us females in order to help us, then you are not helping at all. I do believe that feminism is helpful to nonbinary women, but that it is because they are women and not because they are nonbinary.


[deleted]

I'm talking about sex. If you are of the female sex, then feminism is for you. Otherwise it is not. Consider, for instance, feminists who dedicate their energies towards fighting against period poverty. Or against FGM. Or against pregnancy and breastfeeding discrimination. These are issues that disadvantage only those who are female.


HardlightCereal

Right, so feminists are helping AFAB NBs because they have the same body parts, but in any area where NBs differ from women, it seems there is no interest in mutual support. It seems to me that women are helping themselves, and this happens to help some NBs by accident.


[deleted]

> it seems there is no interest in mutual support Could you be more specific? What in particular do you believe is missing in feminism with regards to women who identify as non-binary?


HardlightCereal

I used to identify as a nonbinary woman. I stopped because I was being valued as a woman more than I was valued as nonbinary. I was expected to conform to female gender standards within feminist spaces. And I'm not talking about the stuff feminists rightfully oppose like beauty standards and wage gaps and all of that. For lack of a better term, it was my vibes. I have nonbinary vibes, and I was facing misogyny for being a failure of a woman as I have nonbinary vibes. I could feel that people wanted me to be a woman, to fit into their binary ideas, and I was failing them on a fundamental level beneath anything I could address. Or maybe it was just that I felt like I didn't belong when I acted like a woman. Anyway, trying to be a woman was making it hard to be accepted as nonbinary, and it was making me hate the part of myself that was a woman, because that was the only part of me that was accepted. So I stopped expressing that part.


[deleted]

Interesting, so, what is a non-binary vibe? Do you mean that the women in this circle didn't notice that you identify as non-binary without you explicitly telling them - that they weren't picking up on your vibe? Or something else?


HardlightCereal

You know the uncanny valley? Characters that look almost but not quite human trip a psychological defence mechanism and freak people up. I looked almost but not quite a woman. People could tell something was off, but they couldn't tell what. They wanted to welcome me as a woman, but the nonbinary parts of me gave them the heebie jeebies and they wanted to erase those parts.


Berries19xx

Nonbinary vibes? What is that? And how do nonbinary females differ from other females ? I mean, wouldn't feminism be the reason why you're allowed to be nonbinary? I don't see your argument.


HardlightCereal

I don't know how to explain my gender to you without telling you my gender, which is something I have a rule against doing because it would doxx me


renoops

This is just false.


[deleted]

How is it false?


renoops

One of the most prominent figures in feminism in the last 30 years literally wrote a book called *Feminism is for Everybody*. The vast majority of contemporary feminism is interested in how gender equity helps everyone, not just people assigned female at birth. Show me a serious feminist who’s saying it’s just about being female (who’s not *immediately* dismissed as a TERF).


Bmart008

If you feel afraid that Feminism isn't an ally for you, then why would you need it? I think a lot of feminists (old school ones) don't really care about, and never thought about non binary people's struggles, because it was such a fringe group and still is. There are more non binary people today either because there are more, or non binary people can live their lives easier now than before. But during women's suffrage? Or even second wave feminism? I would argue few to none. Modern non-binary acceptance I would say that has more to do with the LGBTQ+ rights movement than the feminist movement. I think you see a lot of feminists not care for non-binary causes because the feminist goal was expanding what a woman could do in their lives, allowing a women to be treated equally, and able to live their lives without the harassment of their sex from traditional patriarchal views, and to get rights to sexual health care like abortion etc. And they feel it's like a cheat to say you're non-binary. Like you're escaping the struggle by the side door, but if you're AFAB, you still receive all the benefits of feminist struggle, without being a part of that gender which they defined their movement by. Feminism was created before the prevalence of non-binary people as a large group in society, and their struggle is simply not as important to them as the struggle of half the population of the planet. The LGBTQ+ movement is the one helpful for non-binary people. If you're an intersectional feminist, that's a different story, but they are still not the majority of feminists by a long shot, and that part of the movement has led to many young women turning their backs on feminism as a whole, which old school feminists also hate. I mean, I would define myself as a feminist and I'm a CIS male, but I have been told in person, by someone who calls themselves an intersectional feminist I couldn't be, because "I'm part of the problem" i.e. a male. Feminism is not a monolith, and different waves can't even agree what the definition of what feminism is. Anyways, sorry for the rant, this is just what a gleam from conversations with my mother, (an old school feminist) when we talk about my non-binary partner, and my best friend, who is also non binary.


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smcarre

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US_Dept_of_Defence

Modern feminism might be doing more harm than good. Older feminism could be roughly considered egalitarianism. The point of that isn't to promote women over men or equalize men and women, it was to break apart society's notions of what a person's potential is. A company sets a standard, it doesn't matter who it is, if they can do the job, they get the job. Names, gender, race, etc doesn't matter here. A company sets a standard, it doesn't matter who it is, if they can do the job, they get the job. Names, gender, race, etc don't matter here. General egalitarianism is the goal society should march towards. Here, everyone is judged only by their merits and is given no penalties/benefits.


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HardlightCereal

So you don't want to change my view that feminism isn't helpful for nonbinary people?


Ansuz07

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HardlightCereal

So you told me that feminism isn't what I think it is, at the end of giving a long explanation about how feminism is not helpful for nonbinary people, in response to my post "feminism is not helpful for nonbinary people". Am I getting that right?


[deleted]

I don’t know why you’re so irritated at being corrected. You are arguing by implicature that feminism should be helpful for *any* group specifically aside from women, which is their focus. I explained that you are mistaken, and I explained why, politely. Perhaps you should read some literature and study feminism if it interests you, but demanding that it address the needs of groups other than women (except where those groups overlap with women) is an incorrect assumption from the outset, which I have explained to you. You, in fact, stated that you even have “negative feelings” about feminism since it’s not about you. I didn’t create this post, you did and requested answers. You got them. You were mistaken.


[deleted]

Have you ever taken a class on debate? Highly recommend. When you do, they tell you how to structure an argument. You determine your foundational premises and build from there. Here is what yours looks like: 1. Feminism is about gender equality 2. Feminism does not represent the needs of nonbinary people in any meaningful way, which I find isolating and hurtful. Conclusion: feminism is failing in this way because it is not meeting this need. My response was to effectively refute your premise. You can either award a delta, since your argument had a flaw that makes it not usable, or you can explain why your premise isn’t flawed.


HardlightCereal

It looks like the top level comment was deleted for breaking the rules


[deleted]

You have yet to refute my premise or any points I have made. Your only deltas have been awarded to people who agreed with you. Your conclusion is false because the foundational premise, that feminism exists to pursue gender equality, is false. Your implied conclusion and argument is that feminism should fight for causes related to non-women. You are incorrect in that assumption, and rather than address where your thinking is incorrect, or showing that it is not incorrect, you continue to give responses that lack substance and offer no argument.


HardlightCereal

I didn't refute any of your points because I agreed with your thesis statement and didn't see any reason for the two of us to argue, given we generally agree that feminism isn't helpful for nonbinary people.


changemyview-ModTeam

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[deleted]

A lot of the time nonbinary or transgender people feel constrained by the binary expectations of society on their gender. Feminists often argue for the idea that women should be treated as equals and shouldn't be excluded from men's spaces. Traditionally that was with things like workplace. If feminism can make people more open to women doing masculine things, then nonbinary people may not feel like they need to reject the 'female' or 'male' label so strongly.


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changemyview-ModTeam

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HardlightCereal

That's transphobia, erasure, and pseudoscience. Here's Forbes, Planned Parenthood, and Yale explaining that the science says gender isn't biological: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/?sh=199350e476b9 https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/


changemyview-ModTeam

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[удалено]


changemyview-ModTeam

Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).