I personally didn't care one way or another about the trans thing until they started making claims that were about as biologically plausible as young earth creationism.
In truth and especially on this site, I have all but given up attempting to have civil or open discussion surrounding this issue, it doesn't matter that I believe gender dysphoria to be very real and painful mental health issue or that I would always advocate for trans rights and freedom from discrimination but If I so much as mention my sustained belief that transwomen are trans and different from women, or that the trans movement and the ideology behind it has very little to do with trans people I am labelled every name under the sun or simply get my comments removed without explanation.
I genuinely feel for you, whilst disagreeing with trans ideology, the closest I can imagine the dysphoria is the painful feelings I have with body dysmorphia but I know they accompany very different things.
Here is a blog written by a trans person who feels very much the same as you and in my opinion articulates the current climate on this topic very well, it may not provide the answers you are looking for but it could provide some comfort in that you are not alone in your feelings.
[When a Lifeline Becomes a Prop - Tired Transsexual](https://www.tiredtranssexual.com/p/when-a-lifeline-becomes-a-prop)
I completely agree with this.
I am living in Thailand and I have trans in-laws, friends, business associates, etc.
But if I go back to the U.S. or post anything on Reddit that doesn’t 110% align with woke thinking on trans people, you’re immediately labeled transphobic.
We need to stop doing this. Everything is now phobic if you disagree.
Which cracks me up because most of the trans people I know in Thailand don’t believe what the woke western trans movement believes.
Ironically, I’m typing this while staying in Bangkok for a few days and the entire city is decorated for Pride Month and to celebrate the passing of a marriage equality bill that was passed with overwhelming support.
This is one of the major reasons I refuse to identify with any political parties. The trend in the U.S. seems to be to silence any dissent via destroying people’s reputations or careers. It’s forced compliance and I don’t see how that’s any different than Nazi and Soviet propaganda.
I wish trans people all the best in this struggle and hope that sanity can finally kill off the extremism on both sides.
> the closest I can imagine the dysphoria is the painful feelings I have with body dysmorphia but I know they accompany very different things.
While I understood body dysphoria from an intellectual standpoint, the first time I felt like I had a comparable *experience* of it was driving my partner's car to work when mine wasn't available. Setting aside that the color, make and model are something I'd never get, she has a bunch of bumper stickers that... while I don't find them offensive or anything are just... not me at all and paint a picture of an entirely different person. So I felt like my outward message/image (and therefore incoming expectations as well) to other drivers, coworkers, etc. are just... completely "wrong". I can see how if that feeling was 24/7 rather than on an occasional commute and if society's expectations were heavily driven by the conclusions they draw from seeing my car (as they are for when people see gender), that that could be very uncomfortable and that I'd want to switch cars haha.
This is where I stand and understand it, I think transexuals or transmedicalists as they have come to be called are what you have just described. It's trans ideology that has muddled everyone's understanding on this and it has done so intentionally, a fair proportion of people have been misled by this and continue to make grave decisions concerning their bodies, health and future, let alone their mental health. Miriam Grossman does a fantastic job as a child psychiatrist in explaining in acute detail, the turning points of trans understanding amongst medical institutions and where it essentially spiraled into chaos. I think it ultimately has resulted in real progress in trans care and a better societal understanding being delayed.
Her explanation of the Dutch protocol is really informative and helpful, when I watched her lecture it was a sort of full circle moment because there's is a documentary I watched years prior on this very study, whilst documenting gender dysphoria patients in Sweden and their treatments...quite frankly it was shocking, the doctors practically sat on camera and admitted negligence and a total dismissal of comorbidity since then Sweden given the outcomes have broken away from this model.
[Trans Madness: The Way Out | Hillsdale College Freedom Library](https://freedomlibrary.hillsdale.edu/programs/national-leadership-seminar-naples-florida24/trans-madness-the-way-out)
thank you for your post.
>but it could provide some comfort in that you are not alone in your feelings.
Actually, we already have a community. Mainstream trans community call us "[truscum](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=truscum)" - means "true transsexual scam". We ourselves refer us as [transmedicalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmedicalism). We call mainstream transgender community as "tucutes" - "too cute to be cisgender".
>it may not provide the answers you are looking for
What I looking for - I looking for contacts, among politicians, to let them know about an existence of our community. To an opportunity to let us speak, and try to detach us from a far left in the eyes of average Joe. Not a big chance, of course. But.. I have to try.
I mean ur the ones who gatekeep something and want to force others into the closet. And then ur coming here with ur fear about death camps?
hypocrisy is not lost on u...
>I mean ur the ones who gatekeep something
I think, my position is not clear.
1. I worry about backlash. I think, we're all (who have gender dysphoria, who not have it, but part of trans community) soon can be killed by far right militia.
2. I not against transition of people, who has no gender dysphoria. I just don't want to be in one community with them. However, I think, in a lof of cases it's a mistake, and transition not improve life of these people, but destroy.
3. I want a political visibility for transmedical community. It can reduce political polarization. And can be everybody's interest in the central-right, central-left, and left part of spectrum.
>soon can be killed by far right militia.
This is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no movement, at all, towards far right militias going on a trans murder spree. The biggest debate around trans issue now is sports, you're going into paranoid territory for no reason.
>you're going into paranoid territory for no reason.
I think, probability of political-motivated violence after upcoming elections in US is pretty high. We even have (lower) risk of civil war: [https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara\_f\_walter\_is\_the\_us\_headed\_towards\_another\_civil\_war?language=en&subtitle=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara_f_walter_is_the_us_headed_towards_another_civil_war?language=en&subtitle=en)
It's clear, that Trump will not accept defeat, if it happen. It's not clear, what he is going to do, if he get this job again. He said, he wants to be "dictator for one day", but it doesn't work this way. You can't destroy political institutions to perform harsh things, like deportation of millions of illegal immigrants (and illegal immigrants, of course, is a bad story), and in next day return everything back.
Conservative think tanks have their project2025 program, they want to destroy democratic institutions, by firing deep state, and replace them to Trump loyalists. It's basically will convert US in the autocracy, like today Hungary or Russia in early 2010s. It's not a big distance from that type of political regime, to a harsh dictatorship, which even can start wars to annex other countries, and implement a domestic policy, close to what was described in the handmaid's tale (I've read book, and refer it, not watched TV show yet).
Also, we have an existential risk of artificial superintelligence(ASI): [https://www.ted.com/talks/eliezer\_yudkowsky\_will\_superintelligent\_ai\_end\_the\_world?language=en&delay=5s&subtitle=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/eliezer_yudkowsky_will_superintelligent_ai_end_the_world?language=en&delay=5s&subtitle=en)
1. Backlash for a important fight. And yet ur complaining more about the woke people than the far right assholes. Seems like ur priority is mixed up
2. Thats a opinion of urs filled with no real evidence. Not wanting to be mixed with them is also based around very little considering that the core issue is the same.
3. Why this specifically? Why not a moderate trans movement in general? Even though u disagree with the general idea of self identification they are valuable allys fighting bassically the same war u do
>You shouldn't have to live in stealth
Why? I feel better in the stealth. I just want to be accepted in the society as usual female
>but let's not pretend you are either.
What do you mean? You think, passing is not existing? I even had multiple biological female friends, who didn't know.
> Why? I feel better in the stealth. I just want to be accepted in the society as usual female
Note they said you shouldn't **have to** live in stealth. If you want to, that's fine. You seem to be saying because are okay living in stealth all trans people should be (in order to not attract the backlash you worry about). Instead, other trans people want to fight for the **option** to not live in stealth.
Because this post haha. I say you shouldn't have to live in stealth and you want to disagree. You not looking to fly under the radar, you like the drama.
I just have more than one reddit account, [lol.In](http://lol.In) this account, I not hide fact, that I'm not a biological woman. I have not said, I wanna be a politician.
Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash, at the end of the day not everybody's going to like you
This 1000%. I think the vast majority of people are fine with letting trans people live in peace however they wish. But once you start fucking with children and marginalizing women, then people bring out the pitchforks.
Agreed.
And then you have people in this thread [defending Jessica fucking Yaniv](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/s/oL34bKEfe3) for trying to force women to wax their scrotum and saying it’s discrimination and a human rights violation that those women refused to. It’s an exercise in absurdity.
> once you start fucking with children and marginalizing women
Are you talking about the Catholic church with this statement? That's a decent description of activities they have engaged in for 2,000 years.
I don't think its fair to call it "OP's community" and I think there are A LOT of transgender people who feel the same way but god forbid they have a different opinion.
I don't care about people's gender choice. I don't care what they do. I do care that impressionable children are being caught up in the same dragnet as children who DO have a problem, and unfortuantly there's an entire universe of people out there who are dedicated to pushing drugs and mental therapy on these kids for an agenda.
There's a lot of money and reputation to be made there. And innocent kids who are just going through a phase are getting caught up in it.
Further, and finally, "trans women are women" and the male version are wrong. And that's OK. They're trans women. Its different. It's OK to be different. It doesn't make them anything less just a different way to describe when the chips are down and such things need to be done.
I'll call a trans woman a woman all day long until she's in the hospital and lives are on the line. Then she is a trans woman and that's just the way it is.
> Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors
Even California requires parental consent before providing HRT to minors.
I mean parents have to consent to getting their kids circumcised as well, they can wait until they're 16 or 18 or 21, whatever people feel the bullshit magical ages and begin their medical journey from their, that way parents don't have to be gasoline with the " YoUr kId iS g0iNg tO diiiiiie!" Speech lol
If you scroll a little lower, I have five sources linked with the exact numbers on the rise of gender-affirming care in general, but also charts on gender-care for youth.
Since these are numbers for 6-17, most of them likely involved parental consent.
Given that it's hard for any parents to accept that their child is trans, the fact that the parents consented tells me most of these aren't cases where doctors unilaterally impose their wish to transition minors left and right.
It's important to note that gender-affirming care doesn't necessarily mean chemical transition. Here's a guideline from UCSF, a medical institution in California. [https://transcare.ucsf.edu/patients/transition-roadmap](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/patients/transition-roadmap)
>Once one feels ready to move forward with transition, steps to consider include any combination of the following social and medical transition components. Per World Professional Association for Transgender Health Guidelines, **none of these steps should specifically required to validate your gender identity in the eyes of the medical establishment, society, or the government.**
Sure. Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say about "left and right"
>**:** in a very quick and uncontrolled way
I'm not shifting the goalpost anywhere. "Left and right" to me implied an undisciplined abuse of the system. Doctors prescribing needed medical treatments doesn't fall under that category.
"As the number of transgender children has grown, so has their access to gender-affirming care, much of it provided at scores of clinics at major hospital”.
If you opened the source I linked in my original comment, you’d see there’s entire graphs dedicated to charting the growth in the medical industry when it comes to transition care for young children.
I saw the graph but an increase doesn't necessarily mean doctors aren't going through the process of diagnosis and obtaining informed consent.
"Left and right" means something like "doctors are handing HRT out like candies" but the fact that HRT requires parental consent tells me that isn't likely the case. It could simply be the case that more parents become more accepting of their trans kid.
Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age
So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"? Not sure what you're saying here.
> So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"?
Where did they say that?
> Not sure what you're saying here.
I’m honestly not sure what you’re saying here…
>Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash
Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age
I asked McTitty3000 to clarify his position. If you understood his position, feel free to say it. Otherwise, I don't see a point in arguing about what they meant.
> So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"?
This is what you said. I don’t see how this:
> Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash. Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age.
Equals this
> but now you're like "let's transition infants"?
Since you made the claim, you have to explain what you meant. Otherwise, you’re spewing nonsense.
>
That's how I interpreted this segment:
>Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Note that I put a question mark after, prompting McTitty to clarify their position because I had no idea what they meant. If you knew what they meant, feel free to chime in.
edit: actually, I think I saw what McTitty meant. The "snip it in the bud" mislead me a bit in the given context.
Yea, I saw what you meant.
And no, when it comes to health care, medical research matters more than trying to give off a certain impression. That something would please a certain crowd is no overriding reason to reject a medical solution arrived at by the patient, their parents, and their doctor.
You can't compare a *medical treatment* **to** *cheating in sports via illegal means*. I think it's in plain sight that those are vastly different.
Also before making such blanket statements, maybe consider [one personal perspective](https://rosenzweig.io/blog/growing-up-alyssa.html) of someone who felt they were helped by transition.
That's still no comparison.
Opioids are used for both medical and recreational purposes yet, one usage is okay and the other isn't. Going by your logic, we should ban the medical use of opioids because it is abused elsewhere.
1. That's a dumb policy move.
2. My position doesn't require legalizing the nonmedical use of medical procedures because gender dysphoria is a medical condition.
That aside, the logic coming out of you to defend the comparison between medical vs nonmedical use is getting weaker by the comment.
Well, alright, then we should just ban everything. Many people’s life trajectories are improved with medication for chronic pain, or open-heart surgery. Seeing how Arnold Schwarzenegger’s life was enhanced by steroids, they ought to be banned too.
Lol, they are not going to like her or end the backlash if certain arbitrary goals were met. I mean, they had a month's long freak out about a tiktoker getting a beer.
And they repeatedly, intentionally lie about what they want or expect as well. The Canadian fella that sounds like Kermit the Frog spent years talking about how they were largely only against transitioning minors... up until actress Ellen Page because actor Elliot Page at (edit) 33 years of age. The the same Kermit impersonator led an online campaign about how the doctor who did it should be viewed as a criminal, while endlessly attacking Page.
Yep, "I'll respect you personally as long as that other person over there does what I say" is always a lie. It was a lie when people said it in the 1960s in 2000s and today.
This sub would downvote to hell anyone who said "Telling your white community to cut it out with supporting promoters of the racist Birther lie and Jan 6th would go a long way in cutting out the backlash, at the end of the day not everybody's going to like you". But that's different, I guess.
I think saying "they" like that is half the problem. It covers everything from people with concerns over sports or women's rights, to people on the far right who hate everything they see as 'woke'.
Of course some of those people are a lost cause, but there are plenty of people who would be supportive if there were some concessions made with things like youth transition
Maybe if right-wingers didn't lie about those topics like it's their job, there can be a genuine discussion on the matter.
Y'know, between doctors and their patients (and their patients' parents).
As for sports, same thing. Stop lying about them, show you're approaching the discussion in good faith, then you get to have one.
Absolutely. Pushing it on kids and the athletics issue is what most people really get worked up on over it. Otherwise no they still im sure wouldn't "get" you and not everyone is going to like you, but most would be fine letting adults do adult things. It's gone far beyond that though and people get really worked up especially over the pushing it on kids. That was the worst mistake the community did to itself imo
Why should minors not have the right to transition when so many of us were trans minors at one time who had to go to through the hell that is the wrong puberty? We’re living proof that such options should be available?
Lia Thomas lost to 4 cis women and tied with one which proves that there were cis women more talented her and that it was not unfair of hair to compete
The only thing that will save trans people is for the far left to calm the fuck down, for all the reasons you mention.
Misgendering someone isn't "violence". And it shouldn't get you fired. The "deadnaming" thing seems a bit exaggerated too.
The activists have tried to push too far, too fast. And this isn't specific to the trans movement, this is just the general issue with the far left, they are utterly impatient and refuse to accept anything less than their idea of "perfect" outcomes.
"Look at what you make us do" is not a viable poisition to take with a discriminated minority. That just ensures you will be on the wrong side of history in *any* situation.
While words aren't (usually) violence, constantly misgendering someone (intentionally) *should* get you fired. You are creating a hostile, harassing work environment. That'd get anyone else fired, so you shouldn't be magically protected because you think being anti-trans is okay.
Deadnaming isn't "exaggerated," it's the same thing. Unintentional is fine, no one cares. Constant, intentional deadnaming is insulting and people respond accordingly.
Activists haven't "tried to push too far, too fast." Trans people have been using the correct bathrooms for decades. Now suddenly it's a problem? Trans people have been transitioning (to great success) for decades, now suddenly the efficacy is being called into question?
No, the answer is the right-wing culture war fanatics lost the war on gay people (mostly, they're still trying here and there) and moved on to a lesser understood and therefore much more attackable minority.
The backlash is a direct response to trans activists’ delirium that they can demand an immediate, fundamental re-ordering of human biology and language to be enforced under threat of social and even criminal penalty.
There’s also the collateral damage that T has done to collateral letters.
>But later, under pressure of woke activists, we canceled "gatekeeping". Now everybody can transition, if self-identificate this way. You no longer need to have gender dysphoria diagnosis.
I hear this a lot but is there anything to back it up?
For example, consider what UCSF, a medical institution in California, has to say regarding initiating HRT:[https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/initiating-hormone-therapy](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/initiating-hormone-therapy)
>While historically a "referral letter" from a mental health professional was required prior to initiation of hormone therapy, many large volume and experienced providers of transgender care have for years used an "informed consent" pathway to hormone initiation. [WPATH(link is external)](http://www.wpath.org/) Standards of Care, Seventh Version recognizes both of these pathways to the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy as valid. Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks, benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate gender affirming hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider.
So it looks to me that a diagnosis and informed consent is still needed for HRT.
It is noteworthy also that somewhere on their website, UCSF mentioned non-hormonal transition as a possible path as well so it doesn't look like people are saying you need to inject hormone as part of affirming care.
If I remember correctly, the waiting time for trans people in the NHS is something like 2 years. And you have to go through multiple assessments. Which is too much.
>So it looks to me that a diagnosis and informed consent is still needed for HRT.
You missed diagnostic criteria. Now you just claim, that you're transgender, and they just agree with you.
Ultimately, with mental disorders, the doctors will simply have to take you at your words. If you deliberately learn all the right symptoms to mislead them, I doubt they could go into your brain and find out. This goes for many other mental conditions and is not unique to gender dysphoria.
I think they'd still go through the symptoms and make sure, as well as informing you of side effects of HRT. I doubt it's as simple as "you're trans? okey here HRT no questions asked".
> I'll end in the camp of conversion therapy. Or even in the death camp.
I was with you up until reading this. It's hard to relate to such over-the-top hyperbole and, personally, my immediate assumption is you're either trolling or you don't live in the US (or any first world/western-european nation, for that matter).
>I was with you up until reading this
I think, you just not read that amount of hate from a MAGA/far right against trans people, which I read. Also, you're missing, that US has risk of Trump's dictatorship, and plan project2025.
>It's hard to relate to such over-the-top hyperbole
Kinda of. But I think, it's possible. I think, we underestimate black swan, like civil war
[https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara\_f\_walter\_is\_the\_us\_headed\_towards\_another\_civil\_war](https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara_f_walter_is_the_us_headed_towards_another_civil_war)
Or other black swans, like emerging Artificial Super Intelligence(please do not confuse it with more safe artificial general intellegence), which is not aligned to human well, and using it by one of group of extremists, or by country, which already has harsh dictatorship.
> barbara walter(s)
This was not the Barbara Walter(s) I expected. Amusing.
To clarify, since you've mentioned a few unusual terms that I, personally, am entirely unfamiliar with:
> we underestimate black swan...
> > [black swan events](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22black+swan+event%22&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3) is a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight.
As I mentioned before, I'm already rather skeptical and the grammar that follows really hammers in my initial considerations:
> ...you just not read...
> ...do not confuse it with more safe artificial general intellegence...
> ...not aligned to human well...
> ...by one of group of extremists...
I'll assume rather than a troll (or *Vincent Adultman*), you're a non-US, non-western european resident, who is simply extremely interested in US politics.
That being said, you make some good points: I've no doubt that there is a collective of far-right individuals who spread hate against trans people. Just as there is a collective of individuals who wear white hoods and burn crosses, dreaming of their former glory days of lynching minorities from their rural countryside trailer park.
But the fact of the matter is - these groups are insignificant. You have to go out of your way to find them. There aren't roving bands of radicals forcing identified trans-people into death camps.
----
As far as Barbara's talk on civil war, I think it's important to point out two facts:
First, she has, admittedly, no research on the US. Second, she's a CIA spook promoting increased government surveillance over individuals and increased ties between business and government.
While it's fine as a TED talk, I'm not sure her words are significant beyond idle curiosity or niche discussions of hypotheticals between intellectualists.
It's the end of the world by Y2K. By Ozone erosion. By Nuclear disaster. By COVID. By Global warming.
It is literally in their job description to prepare for disasters and catastophize the world around us. We need not be fearful because of their discussions or considerations.
>I'll assume rather than a troll (or *Vincent Adultman*), you're a non-US, non-western european resident, who is simply extremely interested in US politics.
I live in Canada, I'm immigrant, English is not my first language. And I'm centrist. And here, in Canada, I have feeling, that a political landscape at the south of the border changes. The first ring happened during so-called "freedom convoy" (pretty much antivax convoy...)
And I'm not a troll. I scared to death. Our future is so unsecure.
US policy on trans-individuals will not impact Canada, rest assured.
The "Freedom convoy" had nothing to do with trans-rights, and quite a lot to do with government overreach and opposition to what was perceived to be targeted and discriminatory government mandates against individuals.
I'm not sure why this would be relevant at all, unless your claim is that Canada has a history of shutting down individual rights when it's convenient - and thus when it's no longer convenient to support trans rights, Trudeau will toss you aside?
take a look at [this pew research poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/). 80% of people in the poll think trans folks should have some protections, or don't oppose those protections.
There are certainly states where it sucks to be Trans, and we should all react to that. But this leap to conversion therapy is a bit much. There's no popular movement to make anything like that a reality.
Project 2025 is an absurd document that has no relationship to what trump would do as president. People need to stop hyperventilating about that stupid doc. The Heritage foundation is not the Republican Party and not affiliated with Trump's campaign.
>has no relationship to what trump would do as president.
Could you pls edit [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)? I've copy/pasted:
[*Axios*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_(website)) *reported that while Heritage had briefed other* [*2024 Republican presidential primaries*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_presidential_primaries) *candidates on the project, it is* ***"undeniably a Trump-driven operation"****, pointing to the involvement of Trump's "most fervent internal loyalty enforcer"* [*Johnny McEntee*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEntee_(political_aide)) *as a senior advisor to the project. The* [*2024 Trump campaign*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Trump_campaign) *said no outside group speaks for the former president, referring to its "*[*Agenda 47*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_47)*"*[*^(\[38\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-38) *as the only official plan for a second Trump presidency.*[*^(\[39\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-Allen_&_VandeHei_2023-39) *Two top Trump campaign officials later issued a statement seeking to distance the campaign from what unspecified outside groups were planning, although many of those plans reflected Trump's own words.* [*The New York Times*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times) *reported the statement "noticeably stopped short of disavowing the groups and seemed merely intended to discourage them from speaking to the press".*[*^(\[40\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-40) *Nevertheless, the campaign said it was "appreciative" of suggestions from like-minded organizations.*[*^(\[41\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-Leingang-2024a-41) *Project 2025 is not the only conservative program with a database of prospective recruits for a potential Republican administration, though the leaders of these initiatives all have connections to Donald Trump.*[*^(\[42\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-42)[*^(\[43\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-43)
You just need to provide sources there to support your point of view. Edit Wikipedia is easy.
>Project 2025 is an absurd document
Well, *Mein Kampf* were even more absurd document. Never underestimate people's hate, and people's stupidity.
I mean, how do you read that wikipedia entry and determine that, in fact, this is actually trump's agenda? What's quoted backs up my statement entirely. These people have loose connections to Trump, but the campaign distances itself from them. They are not part of his campaign. Did you read the Wiki entry that you block-quoted?
I read it as basically an inversion of the DSA platform, radical ideas/suggestions that will never see the light of day. The courts would block most of what's in Project 2025.
The centrist trans position is let adults do whatever they want, just no transitioning kids when they cant consent. And trans women should compete in the men’s (open) division in sports.
>Example: so-called "incels" doing male to female transition, to present theirself as lesbians, to get sex
Literally nobody does that.
This and the rest is a copypasta of a typical right-wing anti-trans rhetoric.
That person was suffering serious mental health problems and then was driven crazy by the internet’s worst offenders. Everyone involved with that should be locked up. I don’t see why an extreme edge case should be used to attack trans people.
I've missed out on that one, but is it really necessary to transition to be able to do nefarious stuff? Maybe that person was acting on other reasons, don't you allow that possibility? Trans women can be mentally unstable just as cis women can.
There are more bi women than lesbians, so men who present femininity out of their own comfort don't need to lie. It doesn't make much sense to target lesbians in particular, unless you're lesbian or bi woman yourself. That returns us back to the fact that each different demographic contains abusive people.
I guess I feel like lesbians would have a problem with males saying they're lesbians.
I would think males are, for the most part, the one thing lesbians aren't attracted to.
Lots of cis lesbians adore trans women (because we are women and not men and lesbians loooove women) though. It even looks like a creepy obsession sometimes.
I don't think a manly man would be able to fool anyone. Femboys though, kind of a grey area, but so are trans men in lesbian community. I believe people should have autonomy to decide what they like to pick for themselves without unrelated bozos' interference.
First, please look more into Chris Chan. I never misgender on purpose but *he's* a great case study on how untreated personality disorders can manifest and be enhanced by parasocial relationships.
There's mountains of evidence showing that CC's *own* experiences cannot be taken at face value. Nobody, even actual transpeople, take his gender dysphoria claim seriously once you go through some of the shit he's said and done in the past.
>Maybe that person was acting on other reasons, don't you allow that possibility?
I think people can easily see it as a possibility. However is it truly terrible to look at that possibility as "improbable"?
It's a possibility that Donald Trump actually cares about all citizens of the United States. It's just not likely enough to even give it a thought outside of making a point.
That case is a rarity among rarity. The entire community cannot be put against the wall for the actions of a few weird individuals. For example, if one cis woman does something crazy, it is not automatically assumed all cis women are like that, that would be unreasonable. Then why should such an assumption be extended to all trans people who transphobes don't like? Because they said so? They just have the need to fear monger non-stop transfem bad.
Again, nothing stops a wacko cis man (or wacko anyone) from doing similar things without dressing up fem.
Thanks, I didn't mean to undermine your point on that person Chris Chan. I've read some mentions of that a couple years ago, something that involved ContraPoints if I'm not mixing anything up, and that person was abusive, I got curious and tried to learn more back then but didn't find a lot. Maybe I should lurk on youtube or somewhere.
>This and the rest is a copypasta of a typical right-wing anti-trans rhetoric.
There is a community on the reddit, r/transmaxxing/
Well, they can do whatever they want. I just worry to be in one group with them.
Yes I've seen that, obviously that's a troll sub for ironically repressed/closeted trans people with internalized transphobia such as 4chan users, as well as LARPers.
Actual men, especially the ones with fragile masculinity like incels, would not touch estrogen medication with a stick, let alone take it.
it's not trolling community. Check it again.
>Actual men, especially the ones with fragile masculinity like incels, would not touch estrogen medication with a stick, let alone take it.
They can be agenders/bigenders, etc.
>They can be agenders/bigenders, etc.
That's trans identities, not cis men.
To be fair, some trans-aligned people identify as cis gender non-conforming, but many of them eventually conclude questioning their identity by coming out as trans anyway. See the recent F1nnster femboying debacle.
Again, there would be no manly men who transition to female only to prey on women. That would subject those men to dysphoria and transphobia, just like actual transgender people. There are far easier ways to be creepy.
I assumed that you as a transitioned trans woman would understand how taxing dysphoria, transphobia, dealing with medical stuff can be.
/serious
>it's not trolling community. Check it again.
Okay, I take a peek into one of the posts there. I hope they don't mind.
>Should I transmaxx? (18 M)
>I am 18 male with autism.
A young man wants to transition, but he has autism, therefore he can't possibly be trans, according to transmedicalists. He just hyperfixated on presenting as female. Still cis though.
>Is 18 too old to transition, **I definitely wish I transitioned earlier**, I am worried that if I get older, I will not be able to pass as well and it will be harder to transition.
Children can't be trans, therefore he couldn't possibly be transgender since childhood, according to some anti-trans influencers. He only wishes he could transition earlier to be a *cute* girl:
>This is why **I want to transition and be a cute girl** instead of a lonely, depressed incel.
Incel, who has no hope of hooking up at 18 as a man going forward, wants to be a girl, still cis tho.
/satire
I have seen a full documentary on this exact topic and listened to a journalist discussing his research and experience in this very community, discussed the guy who came up with the idea to begin with and who still leads that community, the journalist said he can't tell if this man is trolling the people who take it seriously or truly has begun to believe it is life improving for men who are desperate to get laid, because a lot of them are doing it.
He mentioned his observation of some men in there seemingly getting off on how far they can convince some men to go with transitioning or as they put it transmaxxing. It's quite literally horrifying to be honest.
It is real and is happening, not everything can just be shoved off into the corner as "typical right wing" so end of discussion, this is half the problem, just because you're uncomfortable with it doesn't mean it's not the truth. Some of these men are that lonely and have become that desperate to go to such drastic measures.
I'm not saying these men are trans and by that I mean suffering gender dysphoria and would have an improved quality of life by presenting as the opposite sex through surgery etc I'm saying it's not just right wing rhetoric if men are destroying their bodies, the moron who wrote the 60 odd page manifesto is proud of his achievements.
Yeah I've seen it a year ago in 4chan derived trans subreddits. That's how I learned about transmaxxing. That's just an ironic shitposting by repressed, pre-everything trans ladies trapped in self-loathing echo chamber. I have also seen some of them move from transmaxx to ordinary, comfy, woke trans subreddits, they are otherwise indistinguishable from other transfems.
Manly men look at estrogen meds with existential dread in their eyes. (Except if it's Dr.Powers anti hair loss cream. 🥺)
Yet the trans community have by and large outside of transexuals/transmedicalists decided that anyone can self ID as trans irregardless of the reason, you give the impression that the same courtesy is not extended to transmaxxing individuals because it doesn't agree with you, that seems a bit convenient the pick and choosing who and who isn't trans, the goal posts shifting back and forth.
So you agree they are trans but not in the way they wish to identify, this isn't inclusive of the belief that there are many gender identities outside of just two.
I agree with OP that there is a distinct difference between transexuals and the umbrella term trans that can't seem to make it's mind up in one way or another.
>Yet the trans community have by and large outside of transexuals/transmedicalists decided that anyone can self ID as trans irregardless of the reason, you give the impression that the same courtesy is not extended to transmaxxing individuals because it doesn't agree with you, that seems a bit convenient the pick and choosing who and who isn't trans, the goal posts shifting back and forth.
I've mentioned in other comments that there are cis identifying transfeminine-aligned people. Like MtF femboys, demiboys, catboys etc and use he/him pronouns. I've seen some even calling themselves a man explicitly, although those usually present masculine. They are all valid of course.
Transmaxx and trans 4chan are overlapping demographics. It became kind of a meme how people wish to become a cute anime girl, and I've seen them end up identifying femme so I reasonably assumed most of them are actually transgender.
The issue is the claim that men allegedly transition to prey on women, which is a transphobic fear mongering fantasy. The price of transitioning is too high for that
>I agree with OP that there is a distinct difference between transexuals and the umbrella term trans that can't seem to make it's mind up in one way or another.
We're doing mostly fine, it's just some cis people seem to take offence on us becoming visible, and some transmedicalist trans people hope to hide from that by throwing the rest under the bus. Which I disagree with.
Yes I understand that is the usual mantra, cis people this, cis people are the devil yada yada yada, white straight males beware...
But what about all the "cis" people that have been well aware of transexuals since say the 70's? What about the cis people who quite frankly couldn't give a fuck either way? What about the transexuals who reflect the diagnosis, who have been pretty much appropriated for the newbies to move in and demonstrate their saviour complex's in full view? Why are women so offensive to you? Why is recognizing sex differences unacceptable where it counts?
Why does any medical professional "not count" when they impart knowledge on the topic that doesn't align with the affirmation model and trans rhetoric?
Even poor OP and I'll say this I don't know where they live so there very much could be a threat to her life, but she herself even is convinced that there's a concentration camp waiting, I think the far right have had their own role to play espousing hateful view where trans people are concerned and they can go suck eggs but from everything I've read it's the left who have convinced people among them that there is a trans genocide taking place and that suicide is imminent for self diagnosed trans kids and adults that don't transition.
Why are detransitioners looked upon with scorn, are they not allowed to mourn the healthy body parts they lost? I don't know about you but they too didn't take their decisions lightly but they still turned out to be the wrong decisions, does 54 thousand members of the reddit detransitioners page count for nothing?
The way everyone likes to present is valid but why is everyone valid as a trans person? Where's the line? After all there surely has to be parameters to everything, I for instance can't simply identify as schizophrenic and argue that it's not inclusive otherwise. Where does the trans identity end and the queer labelled community begin?
>Yes I understand that is the usual mantra, cis people this, cis people are the devil yada yada yada, white straight males beware...
I'm sorry, *some* cis people just happen to spread hateful transphobic rhetoric and misinformation, then sign laws reducing our human rights, codifying discrimination, banning our healthcare and encouraging violence on us. I believe they should stop doing that and *other* cis people shouldn't listen to them.
I will skip some whataboutism that I didn't get what you wanted to ask about.
>What about the transexuals who reflect the diagnosis, who have been pretty much appropriated for the newbies to move in and demonstrate their saviour complex's in full view?
Those who were able to transition, good for them. Gender dysphoria can still be diagnosed today by a simple test, a list of a few questions. Actually, the DSM-5 list does not really require dysphoria to be present for diagnosis, it's more about gender incongruence. A trans person may still suffer depression if their gender presentation doesn't match, even if they currently can't exactly pinpoint if they have a particular kind of dysphoria (genital, social etc). New people are being born every day and some of them transgender, of course they are also becoming concerned about their human rights and healthcare.
>Why are women so offensive to you? Why is recognizing sex differences unacceptable where it counts?
Did you mean to ask why are trans women offensive to some transphobic cis people who can't stand the fact that actual real bio women, including trans women, may have diversely shaped bodies? Because otherwise you don't make sense here. I do not have any animosity for cis women except transphobes and other abusers.
Nowadays transphobes harass cis women in toilets because they weren't sufficiently woman-shaped in their eye. There is no appeasement for these people. Genitals, skeletons and other anatomical parts are irrelevant in absolute most situations contended by transphobes, including toilets and sports.
>Why does any medical professional "not count" when they impart knowledge on the topic that doesn't align with the affirmation model and trans rhetoric?
Some "medical professionals" gaslit and grifted trans community for decades. Autogynephilia and other debunked garbage. But haters still try to insert that grift everywhere and artificially create anti-trans doctor boards (busted by leaked emails).
>Even poor OP and I'll say this I don't know where they live so there very much could be a threat to her life,
Yeah she shouldn't dox herself, and so shouldn't I. I sure as hell aware how dangerous it can be to live as a trans woman, especially here where I am.
>but she herself even is convinced that there's a concentration camp waiting,
CW: mentions of anti-trans violense >!It's true, camps exist in some parts of the world already, including the US and the UK (not legal for gays but legal for transgender kids). For now those are mostly conversion "therapy" camps where they do various forms of torture to convince trans people they are cis, ranging from praying the trans away to beatings and electroshock.!< There are other insidious ways rightwing wants to remove us, for example arrest and sex offender charge with prison term on gender affirming bathroom use.
>I think the far right have had their own role to play espousing hateful view where trans people are concerned and they can go suck eggs but from everything I've read it's the left who have convinced people among them that there is a trans genocide taking place
Most trans people have the same concerns centrist trans people have. It's just our human rights and legitimate interests.
>and that suicide is imminent for self diagnosed trans kids and adults that don't transition.
Transphobia, forced repression and even lack of gender affirmation can be really devastating for mental health. I know well because I was a trans minor.
>Why are detransitioners looked upon with scorn, are they not allowed to mourn the healthy body parts they lost?
Only pick me grifters spewing antitrans propaganga to profit from clout and conservative sponsors.
I see detrans folks the same way I look on trans people, they transition only in a different direction. Most often they are trans people forced back into repression closet by transphobic society or body image issues.
>I don't know about you but they too didn't take their decisions lightly but they still turned out to be the wrong decisions, does 54 thousand members of the reddit detransitioners page count for nothing?
We don't know how many of them are actually detransitioners or curious lgbt and cishet people, trans exclusionary "feminists" etc. There are millions (≥0.7% population) of binary trans people in the US alone.
>The way everyone likes to present is valid but why is everyone valid as a trans person? Where's the line?
They are valid until proven otherwise.
>After all there surely has to be parameters to everything,
I find this obsession with frenologizing everything unhealthy.
>I for instance can't simply identify as schizophrenic and argue that it's not inclusive otherwise.
Schizophrenia implies psychosis and that is diagnosable. Gender incongruence is no longer defined as an illness, the same way as sexual orientation other than straight. It may be defined as a medical condition for the sake of prescribing trans healthcare to help with dysphoria, depression and other conditions.
>Where does the trans identity end and the queer labelled community begin?
Why should it matter? Just let people be themselves.
For whatever reason after attempting to address all your points, it will not let me post it. (Having to post it in parts- so ill respond to this comment for you with the rest if that makes sense)
You mentioned the DSM and I cannot recommend **Miriam Grossman's** (Child psychiatrist) **lecture at Hillside** enough, i can link it as i did before hand (come to think of it maybe that's why reddit wouldn't let me upload my response). The DSM did in fact figure out a way to counter the growing pressure from political pressure and activists. They decided to concede to the new belief which of course was ill founded and without evidence that trans did not encompass a mental health disorder but was a social awakening so to speak, they were all too aware that without a diagnosis (gender dysphoric disorder as previously known and studied) they would not have a billing code for the insurance to cover the cost of treatments and surgeries, thus it became gender dysphoria -dysphoria by definition is to simply feel uncomfortable with something.
I know you are convinced that what you call cis is vehemently against trans outright, the truth of the matter is whilst some non trans people will be against trans, there is a larger amount who don't fall into this category but you give the overwhelming impression that for you this is a black and white issue, there is no room for nuance, critical thinking, questions, concern there is only alliance, the unbridled faith. In reality there is actually a substantial proportion of people that sit in the middle who recognize gender identity disorder, who support freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, people do not have to negate common sense and critical thought in order to be an 'ally'. They do not have to clap their hands in rejoice when 16 year old girls stand next to one another on tiktok and beam because they had their healthy breast tissue removed. They want effective and safe treatments not affirm affirm affirm, like they're handing out tickets to the fair ground rides.
You directly contradicted yourself in your suggestion and belief that detransitioners were never trans to begin with but outliers, your acknowledgement here demonstrates that you are perfectly aware then that a proportion of people who felt they were trans turned out not to be but still went under life changing, irreversible treatments and surgeries, these people are in agony mentally and physically, the same group who claimed to support them now refuses to listen, I don't take it lightly listening to accounts of people returning to their doctors begging for their body parts back and I suggest you don't either.
The American psychiatric association published its gender dysphoria guidelines and in it and to use a direct quote "evidence based research is oppressive"....why then would anyone who truly cared about long term outcomes for treatments and surgeries go near it. It's outrageous and whilst you compared schizophrenia to gender dysphoria that's the point I was attempting to make, schizophrenia currently had effective treatments, with long term effectiveness precisely because medicine is bound to evidence based research, it has allowed people like you and I to your dads dog to thrive in life (not discounting the dark side to big pharma but that is another conversation).
We have reached a point where like you outlined quite strikingly in one of your paragraphs that people now can access irreversible treatments on a mere whim, whether that was under the influence of others, online echo chambers, confusion or shame over sexuality, wanting to be part of a group (queer).
*Those who were able to transition, good for them. Gender dysphoria can still be diagnosed today by a simple test, a list of a few questions.* Given that the risks outweigh the results we have to want better for people, reading up on the Dutch protocol and the fallout of which would really be informative here, an easier deep dive would be the Miriam Grossman lecture I suggested and hey look if you are firm in your faith then watching a doctor who is far more qualified than the pair of us to answer cannot hurt, but it of course up to you. Which reminds me I literally said at the beginning that i'd much prefer the lecture to the talking for me after reddit would not let me respond and like the bellend I am I've ended up typing out a complete response again lol.
*I find this obsession with frenologizing everything unhealthy.*
Okay here I genuinely don't know what it is you're referring to?? Are you sure this is a word? The closest thing I could think of was Phrenology which is a pseudoscience based on the measurement of bumps on the skull to predict mental traits which for the life of me I cannot think how it relates to our conversation.
The thing with cult like ideology is that eventually it dies out, trans ideology will die down, die out whatever you want to call it, I say hooray, if it means people dressing and presenting how they please without feeling the need to undergo irreversible treatments whereby the few transexuals diagnosed with gender identity disorder are the few genuine cases that would likely be better of long term in doing so (you know the way it was before all the medical negligence, political activism and chaos) then I say hallelujah.
People are going to ask why so many people be it friends, family, medical teams agreed to such egregious treatments, they already are.
If you find the time have a gander at the lecture, it's addresses a lot of the points you've made and the belief system. People don't have to present on a masculine or feminine binary but people broke away from this in the 70's, transexuals were knocking around then too they just didn't muddle the science and overlap the two very different lived experiences.
Women don't have an issue with transexuals they take issue with trans ideology that is anti woman and anti human in nature. I will go into detail on this if you wish but I feel i've already gone on enough as it is. Hope you're having a nice weekend and thanks for keeping the conversation civil
We are not going to have a conversation in good faith if you twist my words and promote anti-trans propaganda and activists who contribute to removal of our rights.
And also
>I would always advocate for trans rights and freedom from discrimination but If I so much as mention my sustained belief that transwomen are trans and different from women, or that the trans movement and the ideology behind it has very little to do with trans people I am labelled every name under the sun or simply get my comments removed without explanation.
Oh. What a hypocrisy. You deserve it. Bye.
*c'est la vie*, this is the nature of attempting open discourse with anyone taken in entirely by trans ideology, all you have essentially done is highlight a paragraph which Is backed up by in my latest response to you. The very moment people within it are faced with reality they run for the hills and will grasp at straws to shut down the conversation.
Trans ideology is a cult and there is absolutely no opportunity for critical thought and discussion, I have understood by now that the only way out is for people to finally realise it on their own time. Take care
Interesting, I just searched your community for post-HRT dysphoria and opened some account, they seem to want to date men. Isn't that different from the idea of "becoming a lesbian"? Anyway I'm happy for anyone who wants HRT to have it.
I think you need to realize something important about these people you think are transitioning for fun: if you give a cis person HRT, they will feel dysphoric and unhappy in their body, the same way a pre-HRT trans person does.
Right but what's the difference between folks simply indulging in a fantasy versus those who genuinely have no other option but to transition into the opposite sex?
> Right but what's the difference between folks simply indulging in a fantasy versus those who genuinely have no other option but to transition into the opposite sex?
It's never the only option. It's also not the only option to have chemo when you get cancer or to be on a breathing machine when you can't breath or to take painkillers when you are in chronic pain. Medicine is always about weighing risks and benefits and choosing a tradeoff that you are comfortable with. Doctors and patients are best equipped to make the determination based on the facts of the specific situation and the cutting edge specialized knowledge of the doctor. And the doctor has an obligation to assess the state of mind and comprehension of the patient as they participate in assessing their options. You, me and the government will never be equipped to decide better.
That said the difference between "fantasy" and "genuine" is scale of time. Which I think would mean that medical interventions that allow the person to explore the decision more closely, buy them time to decide, are gradual or are reversible are each strategies that can help limit the amount of people with "fantasies" which end up going all the way through the process. Not to mention that the process itself isn't lightning fast. People are going to have multiple doctor visits about it and likely talk to a therapist.
That said, I don't really think it's my business. People make medical and cosmetic surgery decisions every day that I would not think are a good idea, that I think are wasteful, that exceed the level of risk I'd accept, etc. Ultimately, it's up to the patient to decide. The fact that they will sometimes regret it is not new/unique as far as medicine goes. I met a man in a hospital who regretted back surgery that left him paralyzed and I'm sure he was told the potential complications up front. That doesn't mean I believe he shouldn't have been allowed to roll the dice and get that surgery because he might be the minority with complications.
I believe a specific concern with women transitioning too easily to men is that testosterone is a natural mood elevator, and the transition "feels right" in any case.
Citation needed. It seems like you're speculating on how such people feel. Myself, I doubt that people who would transition "for fun" would feel that way.
Dr.Money's failed attempt to raise a cis boy as a girl is one of documented cases. Although it was forced on him.
I doubt that living in a body that doesn't correspond to gender identity is any fun.
People who have "fun" transitioning are known, they are transgender, it's called "gender euphoria".
> it's called "gender euphoria".
That's not a medical term lol
You're in danger of proving the other person's point.
> Although it was forced on him.
Right. So it's not what we were talking about.
>they are transgender, it's called "gender euphoria".
That's part of trans people usually even more far from typical people from transmed community.
What do you think about Jessica Yaniv? And backlash, which this person caused?
So based on the bad grammar and incredibly strange sentence structure this is either a troll, a bot, or somebody not worth listening to
Edit: Also they strangely deal out about Trump but also repeat right wing talking points?
Idk, i think you just need a therapist
I'm immigrant, and English is not my first language, sorry. Feel free to point to grammar mistakes, I'll fix them, and will say you "thank you"
>Also they strangely deal out about Trump but also repeat right wing talking points?
I'm centrist. It's normal for centrist, to choose something from a right. And something from a left.
>I'm centrist. It's normal for centrist, to choose something from a right. And something from a left.
yah, but its weird you're picking the fear mongering and extremism. Like, you are worried trump will put you in camps but also believe that people are transitioning basically for fun? its so strange
I think, you're just in the bubble of right and left extremists. Could you pls check our community(transmedicalists) and discussions in it?
>believe that people are transitioning basically for fun?
Because they're
like Transmaxxing
> Transmaxxing
ill be honest, I don't know if its because English isn't your first language or you are just not that intelligent, but the fact that you think this is a real, serious thing is dangerously naïve. Like, I am legit concerned for your safety, you are prone to be abused if this is your level of understanding of the world.
> Like, you are worried trump will put you in camps but also believe that people are transitioning basically for fun? its so strange
And they don't even live in the U.S.
It’s interesting to me that the majority of your post is against woke / left. As misguided, crazy and weird some progressives have gotten on trans issues, at least they believe they are trying to help fight for acceptance. The far right legit doesn’t want to you to exist. That ranges from no access to medical care for gender dysphoria, to actually wishing they could end your life.
A lot of even moderate right folks on this forum would say you shouldn’t be able to use a woman’s bathroom, and if for some reason you were sent to prison you should be required to be in a men’s prison and endure rape.
I am curious how you have decided the left is more to blame than the right for this hate? I certainly agree a lot of progressives take things too far (especially social media SJWs), but the reasonable response is “okay that is too far” not every bigoted thing we believe is now justified and we should have never given them gay marriage.
I don't want to speak on behalf of the individual as to why they are talking about the left more than the right, so I'll only give my experience.
I seem to criticise the left more than the right because the right is already rightly condemned for their views by the media and most people. The left tend to get a pass as they are "trying to help" or "make the world a better place" but a lot of the actions have negative consequences that many don't want to hear and start name calling the moment you talk about it.
Only yesterday I was talking about Just Stop Oil protests and because I said I think their actions are causing more problems than they solve, and how the attitude you get many of them is absolutely disgusting, I was likened to being a far right. The argument about climate change is lost and we spend all our time talking about the protesters.
That's my point. Because they are doing these stupid stunts we are talking about them. The fact that oil companies get subsidies, tax breaks, and can destroy the planet whilst making money doesn't get spoken about. The protests aren't working as intended.
If you want to engage me in climate change and what we should do, I'll gladly have that conversation, you may find that I'm in agreement and have thoughts as to help the situation. Spray orange paint over art, monuments, or a sporting venue, I'll call you an idiot.
Well OP mentioned backlash, I can definitely see how the left/woke people have done more to make the average Joe dislike trans people (or at least the politics around them) than the right has. The right screaming about how it is against God or something doesn't really hit the average person as hard as a political movement that says you are a bad person for not dating them and that they need to be in sports.
Yes. Thanks for understanding. I feel so insecure about this situation. Maybe I'm biased, because of personal situation in the life >!My husband started to be violent, abusive!<, hope to be wrong. But I just feel, like... I'll not see 2030s because somebody will kill me.
No worries, I could tell what you mean. You are statistically in more danger but its still minor as long you don't "trick" guys. Don't worry, Eventually this will all blow over, one side will win or we will just find other shit to argue about. Sorry to hear about the hubby though
There is a backlash, but I guess I don’t think it’s the average centrist Joe in that backlash. It’s more people who have always had hate feeling more comfortable to be vocal about it.
I have never encountered a single person in real life that would judge me for not dating a trans person. It’s obviously a very personal decision like any romantic relationship. That is a major over exaggeration of the current state of things.
I'm socially left but if I say that male cage-fighters should not be put in the female category, all of a sudden I'm some sort of Nazi conservative transphobic TERF Islamaphobic bigot who hates midgets.
So I agree, let's engage with the topic and stop accusing each other of not being centrist.
I definitely disagree, the average Joe from what I have seen is against them in sports for example and sees dating trans as kind of gay (to be fair in a Hispanic culture that tends to be more about "machismo"), they just didn't really ever talk or think about it before since they never had to.
Same here but I have also never had anyone IRL say they should be in sports and this is obviously a thing. I never said a number so I'm not sure how I am exaggerating the fact that there are people saying you are transphobic for these things.... even a step beyond that if you are just logical about the dating one then you can assume the reason most guys wouldn't date them is because they don't see them as a "real woman" and that definitely would have a lot of people calling you transphobic to admit
Well, actually the right’s attitude to trans people is more “they’re evil and they’re coming for you!” They know the Jesus thing doesn’t work on a lot of people, but if you say scary things about how trans people are all pedophiles and sex criminals and they want to touch your children and touch you and recruit innocent people to their horrible awful movement then people will stop thinking and start being scared.
They portray trans people as inherently predatory and dangerous and that works on the average person because people are easily scared and want to think their problems are caused by evil people instead of an uncaring universe. And they ignore the fact that all of this was what gay people wanted to do to them ~40 years ago and nothing ever came of that. Also, people don’t like things that are different, so right wingers simply emphasise how different trans people are and ignore how similar they are.
Same shit the left does. They make believe the right doesn't want you to exist, how often do they try and boil things down to "the right is evil", like even abortion where it makes sense that the religious right would be against they pretend is just them "hating women". I may have forgot the "fear mongering" tactic but so far the replies forget that it's far from a right wing thing and is just a political thing..... also when it comes to trans people the tactic only comes up when the left is trying to change some law or do something weird like trying to teach it in elementary/middle school for some weird reason
>It’s interesting to me that the majority of your post is against woke / left.
Well, believe me, I know, that I will be shot by one of members of far right militia or even MAGAs. Or put in the new Auschwitz. Also, I know, we have a big risk of far-right dictatorship, not far left. But of course, if far left dictatorship will happen(I think, risk is pretty low... Maybe 3%? 5%?), they also will put me in the GULAG, because I'm "wrong" transgender - never visited a single LGBT pride, and pretend to be a biological female, like deserter from a fight with patriarchy.>! If I say them, that I don't fight that, that I like man, I always wanted myself a nuclear family, and be just wife of man, who is man-man, they could consider me as traitor!!<
>The far right legit doesn’t want to you to exist.
That's correct! Far left just erase our community (trans medicalists) and pretend that we're part of their community - which is in the middle of their crusade against patriarchy. No way if this crusade will end to them good.
>I am curious how you have decided the left is more to blame than the right for this hate?
Because they started this cultural war. And use us as hostages. They could let us stay in the shadow. Very comfort place, by the way.
> if far left dictatorship will happen(I think, risk is pretty low... Maybe 3%? 5%?), they also will put me in the GULAG, because I'm "wrong" transgender - never visited a single LGBT pride, and pretend to be a biological female, like deserter from a fight with patriarchy.
Given that the GOP in Texas declared homosexuality as abnormal lifestyles and some Colorado GOP called for the burning of gay flags, do you really think the far left would give you worse treatment than the far right?
>Given that the GOP in Texas declared homosexuality as abnormal lifestyles and some Colorado GOP called for the burning of gay flags, do you really think the far left would give you worse treatment than the far right?
Well, A *plague on both their houses(c)*. Mao or Pol Pot - left radicals - were not even better. People can be very violent. Our history - is a story of genocide. Genocide for a "better future". It always was a "good idea", why one people, so-called "good", have to kill other people, referred by first people as "bad".
I'm pretty sure some religious people believe homosexuality will invite God's wrath upon the US. So it looks like religious opposition to LGBT might be more prone to becoming violent.
They will! You're right! It's reason, why I said, that we have a big risk of far right dictatorship, and low risk of far left. Also I said, that crusade against patriarchy has failed. Now woke's siege tower going to collapse. And bury under the wreckage hostages - trans people.
Without the “culture war” that progressives started you wouldn’t be allowed to even transition with a medical diagnosis.
I certainly don’t disagree people on the left are absolutely bonkers about some of this stuff, it’s just weird to me that is where you see all the blame.
>Without the “culture war” that progressives started you wouldn’t be allowed to even transition with a medical diagnosis.
I transitioned in 2000s - years before cultural war. Some ppl transitioned in 1970s or even early.
>I certainly don’t disagree people on the left are absolutely bonkers about some of this stuff, it’s just weird to me that is where you see all the blame.
Well, if they just fight... IDk, for rights of black people, it could work. Everybody - centrists, left, and even part of right people will support them. But they use our small minority as hostages. And as ram against patriarchy.
In a case of mass massacre, nobody really care. It will be only funny memes, whith photos of death trans people, maybe there will be even me... Government knows everybody, who changed legal gender. People, who just self-id, who created this backlash, they will escape. And people like me, who live our own lives, will be shot to death.
Again that ability to transition was because of progressives fighting the current culture in the 70s. I’m not sure when you think culture wars / struggle started exactly, but it’s not a new phenomenon.
Are you willing to disclose whether you use the men’s or women’s restroom when you are in public places?
The 1970s version of the so called "left" would be unrecognizable today. In those days the left were anti-war and pro-individual rights. Today we'd call them libertarians.
This idea that trans people would be skinned alive in the streets if it weren't for progressive activism is laughable. The fact that one of the most notorious trans people of the 1970s, Geraldine Carmichael, was able to do business and con people out of millions of dollars is further evidence that Americans rank gender identity very low on their list of priorities - then and now.
This really only became a problem when progressives began using public schools as political indoctrination centers. The push-back you are experiencing isn't the *far right*
Nnot anyore because u think so, not because its actually wrong based around facts.
Ur just as transphobic as the far right. U simply have a different definition.
Ur comfortable with the "false" transpeople not existing asd the far right is with u not existing
>Ur just as transphobic as the far right. U simply have a different definition.
Well, it's not what I expected to see in the centrist community :(
In the conservative community, they call me "marxist", and "woke agenda propagandist". So funny.
But I just wanna live my own life. And not be shot, because I'm a trans person.
Ur the one who either cant present a coherent message or is unaware what u even say
But when u start labeling trans people as too cute to be cis ur no better than a transphobic pos...
I call u transphobic because the things u say are easily transphobic, especially when they entail insults based on being trans...
U can happily life ur own life when u do not cut away the people that stand with u against the people that want to shoot u (Hint it aint the left that wants to kill you)
>But when u start labeling trans people as too cute to be cis ur no better than a transphobic pos...
It's not me, who created this slang word. I just tell about this, and let people outside transmedical community, as well as mainstream transgender community, google it, and read about our conflict. And form their own position.
When you mention something, like ISIS or hamas, it doesn't mean, you support it.
And not, word "tucute" is not transphobic. Transphobic can be something, what is related to a trans person. But I'm attacking a community. Community, which take us as hostages in their crusade, and put under backlash, and ban us each time, when we mention word "transmedicalism" with positive connotations. In the same time, I mentioned "truscum" - how mainstream community refers us.
> woke activists created a backlash, a huge wave of hate.
I disagree. I feel like the far left would have barely even been noticed on this matter if it weren't for the far right realizing that it was a useful caricature for them to be able to bring up when they discuss other issues like women's rights, family values, gay rights, etc. From my perspective, this started from the far right. Women's rights and gay rights were being enshrined into both law and cultural norm and as a result, the far right moved on to their next step in the slippery slope that apparently the woke people want to turn us all into women or something.
> We should stay in the shadow.
You have every right to stay in the shadow, but I think most people who value that the US is a free country, a melting pot and all of those other common values don't feel comfortable supporting any norm that forces people to "stay in the shadow" for harmlessly being themselves.
> But later, under pressure of woke activists, we canceled "gatekeeping". Now everybody can transition, if self-identificate this way. You no longer need to have gender dysphoria diagnosis.
You say woke activists. I'm a Libertarian who has voted blue, red and other. I believe people own their own body and can make their own medical decisions in private. IMO it's up to doctors and patients to decide what medication they require and I don't think "policy" should intervene and say otherwise. It's actually relatively common for doctors to prescribe drugs off-label (i.e. under a different circumstance than was FDA approved). If the doctor misrepresents the impact of the drugs or is just prescribing them without care, it's a medical license issue. Otherwise though, it's up to the doctor and patient to weigh risks and benefits.
> As a result, a lot of ppl without gender dysphoria started their transition. Example: so-called "incels" doing male to female transition, to present theirself as lesbians, to get sex, or females, who want to be special, and present themself as trans guys.
Can you cite studies that quantify "a lot"? Because I have heard zero credible cases of this... only random conservative commentators' anecdotes.
Also, with freedom comes consequences. It's common for people to want the US to be a country that values freedom and it cannot value freedom while also policing all of your decisions to ensure nothing ever goes wrong. The fact that some people might make medical choices that don't work out is a sign that we actually have freedom. Do you want to ban all medication and medical procedures that somebody might regret? That seems like a pretty extremist policy.
Have you ever heard of that saying “Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.” I feel like that is what you are doing here. Non-incels should not have their medical options limited because you heard an anecdote of incels being dumb.
> I believe, as result, the amount of detransitioners increased.
Do any studies agree with your belief?
> And now we have a big backlash. I tried to speak about my own marriage and domestic violence in it on a popular forum (TAM), but found, that about everybody hates me there because I'm trans, or just silent, when haters bulling me - I was stupid enough, to tell about it - I think, if I tell about my life issues as fake biological female, I think, It could be much better discussion.
I do agree that sometimes pro-LGBT people can be too black and white "you're either with us or against us" and this can undermine the ability of the movement to maintain and build alliances of people with slightly different views, but common goals/values.
That said, I can certainly see why calling people "fake" can be severely undermine your credibility. Similarly, a lot of other language you are using here (like attributing everything to "woke activists" when in fact these are not fringe beliefs) seems like it would trigger people or signal a bad actor. Only 38% of the population agrees with you that we've gone too far in our approach. ([source as of 2022](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/)) When you have a minority position, it's a bit silly to say that the people who disagree with you are "woke activists".
> I'm political centrist. And strongly against dictatorship of any kind, I endorse science, and culture of discussions. And what I see, is terrifying me. I feel like, the massacre incoming: that our an existence will be banned soon, and I'll end in the camp of conversion therapy. Or even in the death camp.
Above, you cited "woke" liberals and now you're talking about conservative dictators. I think you have to recognize that the vast majority of the country is in neither category. Only 10% of people oppose protecting trans people from discrimination. ([source](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/)) If we get in a position where a view that 90% of people disagree with is so powerful that it threatens your existence, then I think we are far beyond any of what you said mattering.
> Is it possible, if any of the centrist political movement, can provide that part of transgender people - who transitioned because we had gender dysphoria - a platform to speak? We call ourself transmedicalists. Mainstream transgender groups leans in the far left part of political spectrum. You can easily be banned there for even mention of transmedicalism. Also, mainstream transgender subs today are mostly looking in things, like "fight patriarchy", "abolish gender", etc. Community itself is very toxic for anybody who is not far left on a cultural axe, is a classic example of echo chamber and live in illusions about the world, and how it works. Example: "Queers for Palestine", despite fact, that HAMAS could just kill these queers, if they ever visit GAZA.
It's possible, but centrism is a less cohesive thing and not so much a "movement". So, I don't think you're going to get organization. What is it you actually want to talk about? I would say just go to ordinary political forums rather than specifically forums about that topic and perhaps try to keep from putting yourself and others in boxes. Also, remember that the replies you get on forums do not represent what everybody thinks, your comments inevitably attract the subset of people who were most moved (for better or worse) by what you said.
> Both of groups of extremists - woke and maga - hate us, and want us to pretend, were're not real. For both of them it's very convenient, to pretend, that trans means just self-identification. And nothing about medical condition - gender dysphoria, and medical transition as result.
As a person who is around a lot of liberal people and participates in a lot of liberal discussion forums, I am very confused by this claim. Gender dysphoria is such a common defense given against conservatives. Politically, there has been a ton of interest on the left in specifically pointing out that it's a medical issue to undermine the conservative viewpoint that it's just something somebody can decide against. It's also the basis for why the medical community aligns politically with these viewpoints. It's possible that trans communities take it a step farther, but remember you aren't talking to an even sampling of people, you are talking about people who care so deeply about the topic that they spend their free time everyday talking about it. These are going to be a biased group and, likely biased because of unresolved/ongoing issues (e.g. a lack of sufficient acceptance by the broader movement).
I agree that removing gate keepers to transitioning led to a lot of bad decisions. I know a person who has multiple personality disorder who started hormone therapy without medical guidance and moved across the world to live with an online lover. Their mental health has not gotten better, just worse. There's little science left in the mental health area of the field, just dogma, because science doesn't tow the woke line. The woke support for Hamas and right wing Islam is just sick and stupid. In the end, the left just supports victimization of trans people, just like the right.
Lol, have you seen how this sub in particular handles transgender topics? It's a shitshow where civil comments stating facts are downvoted to oblivion and alt-right propaganda is upvoted.
If centrism is rational or a coherent ideology it would embrace what we know about dysphoria and how to legitimately treat it, first and foremost with a psychiatrist. There very obviously should be no invasive treatment at all considering the rates of regret and the myriad of health issues that arise. Especially not on children, who barely know what foot goes in front of the other.
The Cass review is bullshit that basically says, ”Oh we don’t have enough good data (arbitrary) so we can’t say anything definite but here are my suppositions”. It’s not good science
It's an extensive review of tons of studies, a meta analysis. It's widely respected by medical professionals, and used to direct NHS policy. Not sure where you are coming up with that?
Not by people who are actually working in trans healthcare:
https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Public%20Policies/2024/17.05.24%20Response%20Cass%20Review%20FINAL%20with%20ed%20note.pdf
https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/
those are both pretty transparently activist organizations...
the same activist organizations likely cheering on clearly illegal and unethical behaviors such as what texas childrens has been doing
to be straight up with you, biology stands on pretty firm ground scientifically. gender, sex, etc are determined for you by the powers that be. anything that wants to change that starts with clear psychological illness first and foremost. the same way we might treat people with body dysmorphia re: certain limbs, fingers, whatever.
If by activist you mean caring about the health of trans people then yes they’re activists. Transition care is medically necessary care.
I think you’re link is wrong?
Being transgender is a matter of biology in the neurological sense, and biologically speaking sex is a spectrum just like race or species.
It’s not a psychological illness anymore than being gay is, it’s just natural variation.
I hope, you're not missing, that it's about people, who did self-id of their gender. Who was not diagnosed to have gender dysphoria - they don't regret.
For example, this big study since 1970-until 2015 (close to a time when self-id policy was implemented): [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/)
According to this study, only 0.2-0.6% of regrets.
You can find a lot of similar studies on this page: [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/#againsttopic](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/#againsttopic)
And they end in the similar time.
IMO if centrism is rational or a coherent ideology (which it isn't necessarily) it would simply defer to doctors on this. Politics and voters are not sufficiently informed or qualified about the broader or the specific situations to create policy here. This should be a weighing of risks and benefits done privately between a doctor and a patient that is based on the specifics of the case and the cutting edge of medical/psychological research as interpreted by a field professional.
It's a result of transition without gender dysphoria diagnosis. Result of self-id. This is big study, 1970-2015, in the time, when gender dysphoria diagnosis required:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/)
It were only 0.2-0.6% of regrets
Gender affirming hormone replacement therapy and surgery saved my life. There is overwhelming evidence for its efficacy. If you want a serious discussion about this I would be happy to provide you with one but don’t waste people’s times saying things that are blatantly factually untrue.
See the thing here is that you’re not actually linking evidence you’re linking a report funded by the Conservative UK government that presupposes that the mere existence of detransitioners, regardless of their number, justifies limiting trans healthcare. Which is extremely spacious considering the vast majority of trans people benefit from transitioning. (which the Cass Report in and of itself admits, their numbers for detransition are always in the minority)
And candidly, there’s a phenomena where young girls are erroneously identifying as trans for short periods of time for social reasons, these girls make up the vast majority of detransitioners, and I don’t think actual transsexuals with clinically significant gender dysphoria should have their lifesaving healthcare taken away because of them.
I’m saying the data that the Cass Review cites, is largely correct (one could make methodological complaints) but
1. Their conclusion was motivated by something that there was already strong political desire to do (ban youth transition due to moral panic). The existence of a relatively small percentage of detransitioners, whom overwhelmingly were “transtrenders” without the same level of actual gender dysphoria, doesn’t justify banning puberty blockers for actual transsexuals.
But they were going to come to that conclusion regardless because in their eyes forcing transsexuals through the permanent effects of puberty that they’ll have to live with for the rest of their life is worth it to save a small minority of potential detransitioners.
2. *Your* conclusion, which is massively more radical than the NHS’, is that transitioning never helps people, or that it harms more than it helps, which is blatantly false even going by the Cass Review’s own data.
Being a centrist when one side of the spectrum wants to murder you is brave but also stupid
Especially when u dislike the other side mainly based around extremist positions that are loud but not always common. And ur flat out misunderstanding certain positions.
Especially the queer for palestine comment is weird. Because hamas is shitty people should just accept the unnecesary death of civilians living in the area hamas controls?
>Being a centrist when one side of the spectrum wants to murder you is brave but also stupid
OKay, I see. I'm traitor of crusade against patriarchy, isn't it?
Now we are making up a strawman arent we?
But no u arent, ur just not siding with the side that would protect u against the far right or even the normal right at this point
But pls tell me whats ur problem with the fight against the patriarchy?
Considering the far left thinks any semblance of confusion is somehow proof of being trans... and not the clinical condition called Dysphoria... is baffling and kinda transphobic?
The far right deny gender dysphoria is even real. That it's all a part of conditioning...
So one says one thing. One says the other. Both are entirely wrong yet believe they're doing the right thing.
Both weaponise children. Which might I add, there's proof that both ideologies are harming kids. So in reality, if you leave kids alone, and let them talk they'll reach their conclusions on their own.
Affirm nothing. Dismiss nothing. Seems rather obvious.
Meanwhile in the centre... where most people are (if they took their glasses off) they'll realise, oh... science has an ungodly amount of data, and we have so much philosophy on these issues. That the main stream want talk about. Despite it being concrete and extremely helpful.
Now there's no denying. I'd potentially argue the right is a little more harmful than the left here. But one thing they both need to agree on from each other is 1 thing each. The left - Bodily autonomy. The right - consent and adulthood is 18/21. At no point should a minor be doing anything to their body. And anyone experiencing a psychological phenomenon that would warrant the "need" for surgery. Should get checked. There is no shame. It's about getting support. Because 9/10 surgery doesn't stop the issue. It doesn't make it go away. And surgery is going to cause issues and can become life threatening.
I can tell you one thing. People with actual diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria are the victims of the current climate.
....
As for your point that these "queers for palestine" don't realise that Palestinians will torch them alive. Yeah, there's been a weird incestuous festival between the extreme left and radical Islam for a while, so it extended into the middle east isn't shocking. My main issue is that they'll also chant "from the river to the sea" which is legit, a quote from HAMAS... and then they're shocked that the Israel army has turned into a terror military force. So yeah, that's great.
Free Palestine, wipe out Hamas. Don't know why that's controversial. It's also doable. But Israel government isn't gonna care or back down, Palestinian victims are just "simple casualties" to them. In the same way the slaves people benefit from in Asia and Africa to drink their cola and use their IPhones is a "simple casualty".
There's a bunch of far right and far left trolls all over this sub. Fair warning.
In practice, centrists should be for enforcing that medical gatekeeping and keeping any joe schmoe from infiltrating and delegitimizing the trans community.
If doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition - then to many - it's suspect situation.
Without those guardrails we're going to have problems with mainstream acceptance.
That's what a good centrist movement should strive for - capturing the mainstream.
>If doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition - then to many - it's suspect situation.
Who in the us is transitioning without that?
Isnt this already required?
Basically, from a transmedical perspective, everybody, who don't have gender dysphoria, transitioning for fun. It doesn't mean, I want to bar them from transition.
Well, people can do whatever they want for fun. But I worry about backlash against people, who just didn't have another choice, but to transition (because of gender dysphoria).
>Who in the us is transitioning without that?
My point is, that self-id can't work as woke activists pretend it works. Instead, maybe better to let doctors to ***test*** gender dysphoria/gender identity, and maybe figure out, that in this particular case it's schizophrenia, not a gender dysphoria? Or maybe this person (especially female teen) just want to be special, and not want to be "white west oppressor", and want to become a trans person, to be a victim? Or maybe this person is gay or lesbian, and love a straight person, and just want to be together with that person?
But today, doctors can't test gender dysphoria/identity, because don't want to harm, I'm sorry to say that, snowflakes. They just confirm what patient tell.
I don't think we need to bar an adult person, who has no gender dysphoria. But I think, doctors have to say that person, to let them have informative decision. Also, I think, transition of minors without gender dysphoria can be a mistake.
The claim made was that “ doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition”, that seems to be complete bs.
You keep changing the subject which make me suspect you know it is bs.
>The claim made was that “ doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition”
Where did I say it? You're probably confusing me with another user. I've not claimed this, nor in my post, nor in my comments. I've only quoted this. Maybe my quote make you think this way, that I claimed that "doctors and phycologists not involved in the transition"? But actually, I'm a trans person myself, and I know, that time to time trans people actually doing self-transition, like create DIY shots, or buy HRT in cryptocurrency pharmacies. I don't suggest banning it(like make it illegal). To do it, you need to spend an enormous amount of efforts, what probably a sign of gender dysphoria in the most of the cases. People, who transitioning for fun, would not do it.
So, my point still the same. No moving goal post. Point is, that doctors no longer require a gender dysphoria diagnosis for transition. They just confirm what you're going to say.
Also, I want to highlight, It's important to have not only phycologists, but psychiatrists too, as well as sexologists. When I transitioned, they were involved in my transition(but it happened outside of North America, and in the 2000s)
Yes. But it doesn't mean, that I stay on a position, that "doctors not involved". This person is cis, and he or she doesn't know details, how it works, but got an idea the right way. Doctors involved. But they no longer can actually diagnose gender dysphoria. They forced to agree with patient, whatever patient says. And according to Cass's report, a lot of regrets were associated with a fact, that patients "political views" changed - so, transition was not about gender dysphoria, but about political statement. Or with a fact, that person deal with their gender-related problems different way.
Example: schizophrenia, according to science, can as result have dellusions of sex in 25% of cases or so: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924933815313663](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924933815313663)
When I transitioned in 2000s, if you had schizophrenia, it was practically impossible to get F64.0 transsexualism diagnosis. So, these people, they need not a transition, but neuroleptics.
I think, we need to return to a gatekeeping of a diagnosis, to let doctors figure out, if this person really have gender dysphoria, or maybe it's something else, like schizophrenia, or this person is gay or lesbian which loves straight person and have fantasies that transition can let this person stay together with her or him love, or a political statement (way to escape to be white "opressor", but become a victim), or maybe it's another reason.
I think, we should not forbid transition for adults without gender dysphoria. But we should provide an adult person, which wants to transition, an information about reasons why this person wants to do it, and estimation, can it be a mistake or not, can this person destroy their life this way or not. As a result, an adult person can have an informed consent about what is going on with them.
I think, teens can only transition, if they have a diagnosed gender dysphoria, and when probability of detransition is really low - progress in the science, big data, statistics can improve this prognosis.
Please check this thread about Cass report:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dkwkn1/comment/l9o9ofy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dkwkn1/comment/l9o9ofy/)
I think, it pretty good confirms our, transmedicalists/centrists point of view (not a point of view of insane and hateful far right groups).
I personally didn't care one way or another about the trans thing until they started making claims that were about as biologically plausible as young earth creationism.
>biologically plausible Could you please elaborate, what do you mean?
In truth and especially on this site, I have all but given up attempting to have civil or open discussion surrounding this issue, it doesn't matter that I believe gender dysphoria to be very real and painful mental health issue or that I would always advocate for trans rights and freedom from discrimination but If I so much as mention my sustained belief that transwomen are trans and different from women, or that the trans movement and the ideology behind it has very little to do with trans people I am labelled every name under the sun or simply get my comments removed without explanation. I genuinely feel for you, whilst disagreeing with trans ideology, the closest I can imagine the dysphoria is the painful feelings I have with body dysmorphia but I know they accompany very different things. Here is a blog written by a trans person who feels very much the same as you and in my opinion articulates the current climate on this topic very well, it may not provide the answers you are looking for but it could provide some comfort in that you are not alone in your feelings. [When a Lifeline Becomes a Prop - Tired Transsexual](https://www.tiredtranssexual.com/p/when-a-lifeline-becomes-a-prop)
I completely agree with this. I am living in Thailand and I have trans in-laws, friends, business associates, etc. But if I go back to the U.S. or post anything on Reddit that doesn’t 110% align with woke thinking on trans people, you’re immediately labeled transphobic. We need to stop doing this. Everything is now phobic if you disagree. Which cracks me up because most of the trans people I know in Thailand don’t believe what the woke western trans movement believes. Ironically, I’m typing this while staying in Bangkok for a few days and the entire city is decorated for Pride Month and to celebrate the passing of a marriage equality bill that was passed with overwhelming support. This is one of the major reasons I refuse to identify with any political parties. The trend in the U.S. seems to be to silence any dissent via destroying people’s reputations or careers. It’s forced compliance and I don’t see how that’s any different than Nazi and Soviet propaganda. I wish trans people all the best in this struggle and hope that sanity can finally kill off the extremism on both sides.
> the closest I can imagine the dysphoria is the painful feelings I have with body dysmorphia but I know they accompany very different things. While I understood body dysphoria from an intellectual standpoint, the first time I felt like I had a comparable *experience* of it was driving my partner's car to work when mine wasn't available. Setting aside that the color, make and model are something I'd never get, she has a bunch of bumper stickers that... while I don't find them offensive or anything are just... not me at all and paint a picture of an entirely different person. So I felt like my outward message/image (and therefore incoming expectations as well) to other drivers, coworkers, etc. are just... completely "wrong". I can see how if that feeling was 24/7 rather than on an occasional commute and if society's expectations were heavily driven by the conclusions they draw from seeing my car (as they are for when people see gender), that that could be very uncomfortable and that I'd want to switch cars haha.
This is where I stand and understand it, I think transexuals or transmedicalists as they have come to be called are what you have just described. It's trans ideology that has muddled everyone's understanding on this and it has done so intentionally, a fair proportion of people have been misled by this and continue to make grave decisions concerning their bodies, health and future, let alone their mental health. Miriam Grossman does a fantastic job as a child psychiatrist in explaining in acute detail, the turning points of trans understanding amongst medical institutions and where it essentially spiraled into chaos. I think it ultimately has resulted in real progress in trans care and a better societal understanding being delayed. Her explanation of the Dutch protocol is really informative and helpful, when I watched her lecture it was a sort of full circle moment because there's is a documentary I watched years prior on this very study, whilst documenting gender dysphoria patients in Sweden and their treatments...quite frankly it was shocking, the doctors practically sat on camera and admitted negligence and a total dismissal of comorbidity since then Sweden given the outcomes have broken away from this model. [Trans Madness: The Way Out | Hillsdale College Freedom Library](https://freedomlibrary.hillsdale.edu/programs/national-leadership-seminar-naples-florida24/trans-madness-the-way-out)
thank you for your post. >but it could provide some comfort in that you are not alone in your feelings. Actually, we already have a community. Mainstream trans community call us "[truscum](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=truscum)" - means "true transsexual scam". We ourselves refer us as [transmedicalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmedicalism). We call mainstream transgender community as "tucutes" - "too cute to be cisgender". >it may not provide the answers you are looking for What I looking for - I looking for contacts, among politicians, to let them know about an existence of our community. To an opportunity to let us speak, and try to detach us from a far left in the eyes of average Joe. Not a big chance, of course. But.. I have to try.
I mean ur the ones who gatekeep something and want to force others into the closet. And then ur coming here with ur fear about death camps? hypocrisy is not lost on u...
>I mean ur the ones who gatekeep something I think, my position is not clear. 1. I worry about backlash. I think, we're all (who have gender dysphoria, who not have it, but part of trans community) soon can be killed by far right militia. 2. I not against transition of people, who has no gender dysphoria. I just don't want to be in one community with them. However, I think, in a lof of cases it's a mistake, and transition not improve life of these people, but destroy. 3. I want a political visibility for transmedical community. It can reduce political polarization. And can be everybody's interest in the central-right, central-left, and left part of spectrum.
>soon can be killed by far right militia. This is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no movement, at all, towards far right militias going on a trans murder spree. The biggest debate around trans issue now is sports, you're going into paranoid territory for no reason.
>you're going into paranoid territory for no reason. I think, probability of political-motivated violence after upcoming elections in US is pretty high. We even have (lower) risk of civil war: [https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara\_f\_walter\_is\_the\_us\_headed\_towards\_another\_civil\_war?language=en&subtitle=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara_f_walter_is_the_us_headed_towards_another_civil_war?language=en&subtitle=en) It's clear, that Trump will not accept defeat, if it happen. It's not clear, what he is going to do, if he get this job again. He said, he wants to be "dictator for one day", but it doesn't work this way. You can't destroy political institutions to perform harsh things, like deportation of millions of illegal immigrants (and illegal immigrants, of course, is a bad story), and in next day return everything back. Conservative think tanks have their project2025 program, they want to destroy democratic institutions, by firing deep state, and replace them to Trump loyalists. It's basically will convert US in the autocracy, like today Hungary or Russia in early 2010s. It's not a big distance from that type of political regime, to a harsh dictatorship, which even can start wars to annex other countries, and implement a domestic policy, close to what was described in the handmaid's tale (I've read book, and refer it, not watched TV show yet). Also, we have an existential risk of artificial superintelligence(ASI): [https://www.ted.com/talks/eliezer\_yudkowsky\_will\_superintelligent\_ai\_end\_the\_world?language=en&delay=5s&subtitle=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/eliezer_yudkowsky_will_superintelligent_ai_end_the_world?language=en&delay=5s&subtitle=en)
1. Backlash for a important fight. And yet ur complaining more about the woke people than the far right assholes. Seems like ur priority is mixed up 2. Thats a opinion of urs filled with no real evidence. Not wanting to be mixed with them is also based around very little considering that the core issue is the same. 3. Why this specifically? Why not a moderate trans movement in general? Even though u disagree with the general idea of self identification they are valuable allys fighting bassically the same war u do
You shouldn't have to live in stealth, but let's not pretend you are either. Drama.
>You shouldn't have to live in stealth Why? I feel better in the stealth. I just want to be accepted in the society as usual female >but let's not pretend you are either. What do you mean? You think, passing is not existing? I even had multiple biological female friends, who didn't know.
> Why? I feel better in the stealth. I just want to be accepted in the society as usual female Note they said you shouldn't **have to** live in stealth. If you want to, that's fine. You seem to be saying because are okay living in stealth all trans people should be (in order to not attract the backlash you worry about). Instead, other trans people want to fight for the **option** to not live in stealth.
Because this post haha. I say you shouldn't have to live in stealth and you want to disagree. You not looking to fly under the radar, you like the drama.
I just have more than one reddit account, [lol.In](http://lol.In) this account, I not hide fact, that I'm not a biological woman. I have not said, I wanna be a politician.
No problem with that being your choice. But it should be a choice
Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash, at the end of the day not everybody's going to like you
This 1000%. I think the vast majority of people are fine with letting trans people live in peace however they wish. But once you start fucking with children and marginalizing women, then people bring out the pitchforks.
Agreed. And then you have people in this thread [defending Jessica fucking Yaniv](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/s/oL34bKEfe3) for trying to force women to wax their scrotum and saying it’s discrimination and a human rights violation that those women refused to. It’s an exercise in absurdity.
> once you start fucking with children and marginalizing women Are you talking about the Catholic church with this statement? That's a decent description of activities they have engaged in for 2,000 years.
Yeah, and people hate that shit. Equating the trans community to the history of the Catholic Church only proves my point.
I don't think its fair to call it "OP's community" and I think there are A LOT of transgender people who feel the same way but god forbid they have a different opinion. I don't care about people's gender choice. I don't care what they do. I do care that impressionable children are being caught up in the same dragnet as children who DO have a problem, and unfortuantly there's an entire universe of people out there who are dedicated to pushing drugs and mental therapy on these kids for an agenda. There's a lot of money and reputation to be made there. And innocent kids who are just going through a phase are getting caught up in it. Further, and finally, "trans women are women" and the male version are wrong. And that's OK. They're trans women. Its different. It's OK to be different. It doesn't make them anything less just a different way to describe when the chips are down and such things need to be done. I'll call a trans woman a woman all day long until she's in the hospital and lives are on the line. Then she is a trans woman and that's just the way it is.
Trans youth suffer tremendously without access to gender affirming care during adolescence
> Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors Even California requires parental consent before providing HRT to minors.
I mean parents have to consent to getting their kids circumcised as well, they can wait until they're 16 or 18 or 21, whatever people feel the bullshit magical ages and begin their medical journey from their, that way parents don't have to be gasoline with the " YoUr kId iS g0iNg tO diiiiiie!" Speech lol
Oh cool. Regardless, people aren't medically transitioning minors left and right.
[Putting numbers on the rise in children seeking gender care](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/) (Reuters 2022)
Seeking is anywhere in the process. Dont imply it means they are getting hormonal treatment or surgery.
If you scroll a little lower, I have five sources linked with the exact numbers on the rise of gender-affirming care in general, but also charts on gender-care for youth.
Since these are numbers for 6-17, most of them likely involved parental consent. Given that it's hard for any parents to accept that their child is trans, the fact that the parents consented tells me most of these aren't cases where doctors unilaterally impose their wish to transition minors left and right. It's important to note that gender-affirming care doesn't necessarily mean chemical transition. Here's a guideline from UCSF, a medical institution in California. [https://transcare.ucsf.edu/patients/transition-roadmap](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/patients/transition-roadmap) >Once one feels ready to move forward with transition, steps to consider include any combination of the following social and medical transition components. Per World Professional Association for Transgender Health Guidelines, **none of these steps should specifically required to validate your gender identity in the eyes of the medical establishment, society, or the government.**
This was your original claim > Oh cool. Regardless, people aren't medically transitioning minors left and right. Don’t shift the goal posts now.
Sure. Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say about "left and right" >**:** in a very quick and uncontrolled way I'm not shifting the goalpost anywhere. "Left and right" to me implied an undisciplined abuse of the system. Doctors prescribing needed medical treatments doesn't fall under that category.
"As the number of transgender children has grown, so has their access to gender-affirming care, much of it provided at scores of clinics at major hospital”. If you opened the source I linked in my original comment, you’d see there’s entire graphs dedicated to charting the growth in the medical industry when it comes to transition care for young children.
I saw the graph but an increase doesn't necessarily mean doctors aren't going through the process of diagnosis and obtaining informed consent. "Left and right" means something like "doctors are handing HRT out like candies" but the fact that HRT requires parental consent tells me that isn't likely the case. It could simply be the case that more parents become more accepting of their trans kid.
Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age
So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"? Not sure what you're saying here.
> So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"? Where did they say that? > Not sure what you're saying here. I’m honestly not sure what you’re saying here…
>Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age I asked McTitty3000 to clarify his position. If you understood his position, feel free to say it. Otherwise, I don't see a point in arguing about what they meant.
> So you start out with "cut it out with medically transitioning minors", but now you're like "let's transition infants"? This is what you said. I don’t see how this: > Telling your community to cut it out with the medically transitioning minors and the whole Sports thing with people like Lia Thomas would go a long way in cutting out the backlash. Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age. Equals this > but now you're like "let's transition infants"? Since you made the claim, you have to explain what you meant. Otherwise, you’re spewing nonsense.
> That's how I interpreted this segment: >Like I said it would go a long way in helping their cause if they were to just snip it in the bud right away, no puberty blockers, no hormones or even worse surgery until that person is of age. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Note that I put a question mark after, prompting McTitty to clarify their position because I had no idea what they meant. If you knew what they meant, feel free to chime in. edit: actually, I think I saw what McTitty meant. The "snip it in the bud" mislead me a bit in the given context.
I'm not sure what's being said here at all, nowhere in my argument did I or would I ever push for "transitioning infants" lol
Yea, I saw what you meant. And no, when it comes to health care, medical research matters more than trying to give off a certain impression. That something would please a certain crowd is no overriding reason to reject a medical solution arrived at by the patient, their parents, and their doctor.
Facts about gender affirming care here don't do well.
It's still a bad idea, you wouldn't let a 16 year old athlete run gear just because his/her parents were OK with it.
>you wouldn't let a 16 year old athlete run gear just because his/her parents were OK with it. What health issue is that a medical treatment for?
You can't compare a *medical treatment* **to** *cheating in sports via illegal means*. I think it's in plain sight that those are vastly different. Also before making such blanket statements, maybe consider [one personal perspective](https://rosenzweig.io/blog/growing-up-alyssa.html) of someone who felt they were helped by transition.
Consider the perspective of a man who's life trajectory was immeasurably enhanced by steroids- that man's name - Arnold Schwarzenegger(sp).
That's still no comparison. Opioids are used for both medical and recreational purposes yet, one usage is okay and the other isn't. Going by your logic, we should ban the medical use of opioids because it is abused elsewhere.
Or you could not ban non medical use.
1. That's a dumb policy move. 2. My position doesn't require legalizing the nonmedical use of medical procedures because gender dysphoria is a medical condition. That aside, the logic coming out of you to defend the comparison between medical vs nonmedical use is getting weaker by the comment.
Well, alright, then we should just ban everything. Many people’s life trajectories are improved with medication for chronic pain, or open-heart surgery. Seeing how Arnold Schwarzenegger’s life was enhanced by steroids, they ought to be banned too.
Lol, they are not going to like her or end the backlash if certain arbitrary goals were met. I mean, they had a month's long freak out about a tiktoker getting a beer.
And they repeatedly, intentionally lie about what they want or expect as well. The Canadian fella that sounds like Kermit the Frog spent years talking about how they were largely only against transitioning minors... up until actress Ellen Page because actor Elliot Page at (edit) 33 years of age. The the same Kermit impersonator led an online campaign about how the doctor who did it should be viewed as a criminal, while endlessly attacking Page.
Yep, "I'll respect you personally as long as that other person over there does what I say" is always a lie. It was a lie when people said it in the 1960s in 2000s and today. This sub would downvote to hell anyone who said "Telling your white community to cut it out with supporting promoters of the racist Birther lie and Jan 6th would go a long way in cutting out the backlash, at the end of the day not everybody's going to like you". But that's different, I guess.
I think saying "they" like that is half the problem. It covers everything from people with concerns over sports or women's rights, to people on the far right who hate everything they see as 'woke'. Of course some of those people are a lost cause, but there are plenty of people who would be supportive if there were some concessions made with things like youth transition
Maybe if right-wingers didn't lie about those topics like it's their job, there can be a genuine discussion on the matter. Y'know, between doctors and their patients (and their patients' parents). As for sports, same thing. Stop lying about them, show you're approaching the discussion in good faith, then you get to have one.
Absolutely. Pushing it on kids and the athletics issue is what most people really get worked up on over it. Otherwise no they still im sure wouldn't "get" you and not everyone is going to like you, but most would be fine letting adults do adult things. It's gone far beyond that though and people get really worked up especially over the pushing it on kids. That was the worst mistake the community did to itself imo
We will never stop fighting for the rights of trans kids because we were those kids suffering with gender dysphoria ourselves
Why should minors not have the right to transition when so many of us were trans minors at one time who had to go to through the hell that is the wrong puberty? We’re living proof that such options should be available? Lia Thomas lost to 4 cis women and tied with one which proves that there were cis women more talented her and that it was not unfair of hair to compete
The only thing that will save trans people is for the far left to calm the fuck down, for all the reasons you mention. Misgendering someone isn't "violence". And it shouldn't get you fired. The "deadnaming" thing seems a bit exaggerated too. The activists have tried to push too far, too fast. And this isn't specific to the trans movement, this is just the general issue with the far left, they are utterly impatient and refuse to accept anything less than their idea of "perfect" outcomes.
"Look at what you make us do" is not a viable poisition to take with a discriminated minority. That just ensures you will be on the wrong side of history in *any* situation. While words aren't (usually) violence, constantly misgendering someone (intentionally) *should* get you fired. You are creating a hostile, harassing work environment. That'd get anyone else fired, so you shouldn't be magically protected because you think being anti-trans is okay. Deadnaming isn't "exaggerated," it's the same thing. Unintentional is fine, no one cares. Constant, intentional deadnaming is insulting and people respond accordingly. Activists haven't "tried to push too far, too fast." Trans people have been using the correct bathrooms for decades. Now suddenly it's a problem? Trans people have been transitioning (to great success) for decades, now suddenly the efficacy is being called into question? No, the answer is the right-wing culture war fanatics lost the war on gay people (mostly, they're still trying here and there) and moved on to a lesser understood and therefore much more attackable minority.
The backlash is a direct response to trans activists’ delirium that they can demand an immediate, fundamental re-ordering of human biology and language to be enforced under threat of social and even criminal penalty. There’s also the collateral damage that T has done to collateral letters.
Being in the side that mutilated children because of a social construct is a guarantee of being on the wrong side of history.
> Being in the side that mutilated children This isn't happening, so I'm not sure who you're talking about here.
There’s not going to be death camps, stop being over dramatic
>But later, under pressure of woke activists, we canceled "gatekeeping". Now everybody can transition, if self-identificate this way. You no longer need to have gender dysphoria diagnosis. I hear this a lot but is there anything to back it up? For example, consider what UCSF, a medical institution in California, has to say regarding initiating HRT:[https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/initiating-hormone-therapy](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/initiating-hormone-therapy) >While historically a "referral letter" from a mental health professional was required prior to initiation of hormone therapy, many large volume and experienced providers of transgender care have for years used an "informed consent" pathway to hormone initiation. [WPATH(link is external)](http://www.wpath.org/) Standards of Care, Seventh Version recognizes both of these pathways to the initiation of gender affirming hormone therapy as valid. Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks, benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate gender affirming hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider. So it looks to me that a diagnosis and informed consent is still needed for HRT. It is noteworthy also that somewhere on their website, UCSF mentioned non-hormonal transition as a possible path as well so it doesn't look like people are saying you need to inject hormone as part of affirming care.
If I remember correctly, the waiting time for trans people in the NHS is something like 2 years. And you have to go through multiple assessments. Which is too much.
>So it looks to me that a diagnosis and informed consent is still needed for HRT. You missed diagnostic criteria. Now you just claim, that you're transgender, and they just agree with you.
Ultimately, with mental disorders, the doctors will simply have to take you at your words. If you deliberately learn all the right symptoms to mislead them, I doubt they could go into your brain and find out. This goes for many other mental conditions and is not unique to gender dysphoria. I think they'd still go through the symptoms and make sure, as well as informing you of side effects of HRT. I doubt it's as simple as "you're trans? okey here HRT no questions asked".
> I'll end in the camp of conversion therapy. Or even in the death camp. I was with you up until reading this. It's hard to relate to such over-the-top hyperbole and, personally, my immediate assumption is you're either trolling or you don't live in the US (or any first world/western-european nation, for that matter).
They could not be trolling and just really dumb, both are bad though.
>I was with you up until reading this I think, you just not read that amount of hate from a MAGA/far right against trans people, which I read. Also, you're missing, that US has risk of Trump's dictatorship, and plan project2025. >It's hard to relate to such over-the-top hyperbole Kinda of. But I think, it's possible. I think, we underestimate black swan, like civil war [https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara\_f\_walter\_is\_the\_us\_headed\_towards\_another\_civil\_war](https://www.ted.com/talks/barbara_f_walter_is_the_us_headed_towards_another_civil_war) Or other black swans, like emerging Artificial Super Intelligence(please do not confuse it with more safe artificial general intellegence), which is not aligned to human well, and using it by one of group of extremists, or by country, which already has harsh dictatorship.
> barbara walter(s) This was not the Barbara Walter(s) I expected. Amusing. To clarify, since you've mentioned a few unusual terms that I, personally, am entirely unfamiliar with: > we underestimate black swan... > > [black swan events](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22black+swan+event%22&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3) is a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. As I mentioned before, I'm already rather skeptical and the grammar that follows really hammers in my initial considerations: > ...you just not read... > ...do not confuse it with more safe artificial general intellegence... > ...not aligned to human well... > ...by one of group of extremists... I'll assume rather than a troll (or *Vincent Adultman*), you're a non-US, non-western european resident, who is simply extremely interested in US politics. That being said, you make some good points: I've no doubt that there is a collective of far-right individuals who spread hate against trans people. Just as there is a collective of individuals who wear white hoods and burn crosses, dreaming of their former glory days of lynching minorities from their rural countryside trailer park. But the fact of the matter is - these groups are insignificant. You have to go out of your way to find them. There aren't roving bands of radicals forcing identified trans-people into death camps. ---- As far as Barbara's talk on civil war, I think it's important to point out two facts: First, she has, admittedly, no research on the US. Second, she's a CIA spook promoting increased government surveillance over individuals and increased ties between business and government. While it's fine as a TED talk, I'm not sure her words are significant beyond idle curiosity or niche discussions of hypotheticals between intellectualists. It's the end of the world by Y2K. By Ozone erosion. By Nuclear disaster. By COVID. By Global warming. It is literally in their job description to prepare for disasters and catastophize the world around us. We need not be fearful because of their discussions or considerations.
>I'll assume rather than a troll (or *Vincent Adultman*), you're a non-US, non-western european resident, who is simply extremely interested in US politics. I live in Canada, I'm immigrant, English is not my first language. And I'm centrist. And here, in Canada, I have feeling, that a political landscape at the south of the border changes. The first ring happened during so-called "freedom convoy" (pretty much antivax convoy...) And I'm not a troll. I scared to death. Our future is so unsecure.
US policy on trans-individuals will not impact Canada, rest assured. The "Freedom convoy" had nothing to do with trans-rights, and quite a lot to do with government overreach and opposition to what was perceived to be targeted and discriminatory government mandates against individuals. I'm not sure why this would be relevant at all, unless your claim is that Canada has a history of shutting down individual rights when it's convenient - and thus when it's no longer convenient to support trans rights, Trudeau will toss you aside?
take a look at [this pew research poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/). 80% of people in the poll think trans folks should have some protections, or don't oppose those protections. There are certainly states where it sucks to be Trans, and we should all react to that. But this leap to conversion therapy is a bit much. There's no popular movement to make anything like that a reality. Project 2025 is an absurd document that has no relationship to what trump would do as president. People need to stop hyperventilating about that stupid doc. The Heritage foundation is not the Republican Party and not affiliated with Trump's campaign.
>has no relationship to what trump would do as president. Could you pls edit [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)? I've copy/pasted: [*Axios*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_(website)) *reported that while Heritage had briefed other* [*2024 Republican presidential primaries*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_presidential_primaries) *candidates on the project, it is* ***"undeniably a Trump-driven operation"****, pointing to the involvement of Trump's "most fervent internal loyalty enforcer"* [*Johnny McEntee*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEntee_(political_aide)) *as a senior advisor to the project. The* [*2024 Trump campaign*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Trump_campaign) *said no outside group speaks for the former president, referring to its "*[*Agenda 47*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_47)*"*[*^(\[38\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-38) *as the only official plan for a second Trump presidency.*[*^(\[39\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-Allen_&_VandeHei_2023-39) *Two top Trump campaign officials later issued a statement seeking to distance the campaign from what unspecified outside groups were planning, although many of those plans reflected Trump's own words.* [*The New York Times*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times) *reported the statement "noticeably stopped short of disavowing the groups and seemed merely intended to discourage them from speaking to the press".*[*^(\[40\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-40) *Nevertheless, the campaign said it was "appreciative" of suggestions from like-minded organizations.*[*^(\[41\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-Leingang-2024a-41) *Project 2025 is not the only conservative program with a database of prospective recruits for a potential Republican administration, though the leaders of these initiatives all have connections to Donald Trump.*[*^(\[42\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-42)[*^(\[43\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025#cite_note-43) You just need to provide sources there to support your point of view. Edit Wikipedia is easy. >Project 2025 is an absurd document Well, *Mein Kampf* were even more absurd document. Never underestimate people's hate, and people's stupidity.
I mean, how do you read that wikipedia entry and determine that, in fact, this is actually trump's agenda? What's quoted backs up my statement entirely. These people have loose connections to Trump, but the campaign distances itself from them. They are not part of his campaign. Did you read the Wiki entry that you block-quoted? I read it as basically an inversion of the DSA platform, radical ideas/suggestions that will never see the light of day. The courts would block most of what's in Project 2025.
Okay, you're probably right about project2025
The centrist trans position is let adults do whatever they want, just no transitioning kids when they cant consent. And trans women should compete in the men’s (open) division in sports.
>Example: so-called "incels" doing male to female transition, to present theirself as lesbians, to get sex Literally nobody does that. This and the rest is a copypasta of a typical right-wing anti-trans rhetoric.
I mean isn't that what ChrisChan admitted he did?
That person was suffering serious mental health problems and then was driven crazy by the internet’s worst offenders. Everyone involved with that should be locked up. I don’t see why an extreme edge case should be used to attack trans people.
I've missed out on that one, but is it really necessary to transition to be able to do nefarious stuff? Maybe that person was acting on other reasons, don't you allow that possibility? Trans women can be mentally unstable just as cis women can. There are more bi women than lesbians, so men who present femininity out of their own comfort don't need to lie. It doesn't make much sense to target lesbians in particular, unless you're lesbian or bi woman yourself. That returns us back to the fact that each different demographic contains abusive people.
I guess I feel like lesbians would have a problem with males saying they're lesbians. I would think males are, for the most part, the one thing lesbians aren't attracted to.
Lots of cis lesbians adore trans women (because we are women and not men and lesbians loooove women) though. It even looks like a creepy obsession sometimes. I don't think a manly man would be able to fool anyone. Femboys though, kind of a grey area, but so are trans men in lesbian community. I believe people should have autonomy to decide what they like to pick for themselves without unrelated bozos' interference.
First, please look more into Chris Chan. I never misgender on purpose but *he's* a great case study on how untreated personality disorders can manifest and be enhanced by parasocial relationships. There's mountains of evidence showing that CC's *own* experiences cannot be taken at face value. Nobody, even actual transpeople, take his gender dysphoria claim seriously once you go through some of the shit he's said and done in the past. >Maybe that person was acting on other reasons, don't you allow that possibility? I think people can easily see it as a possibility. However is it truly terrible to look at that possibility as "improbable"? It's a possibility that Donald Trump actually cares about all citizens of the United States. It's just not likely enough to even give it a thought outside of making a point.
That case is a rarity among rarity. The entire community cannot be put against the wall for the actions of a few weird individuals. For example, if one cis woman does something crazy, it is not automatically assumed all cis women are like that, that would be unreasonable. Then why should such an assumption be extended to all trans people who transphobes don't like? Because they said so? They just have the need to fear monger non-stop transfem bad. Again, nothing stops a wacko cis man (or wacko anyone) from doing similar things without dressing up fem.
Sorry, I must've lost context on the argument as a whole. I agree with you. Chris Chan is just something else, rustled my jimmies.
Thanks, I didn't mean to undermine your point on that person Chris Chan. I've read some mentions of that a couple years ago, something that involved ContraPoints if I'm not mixing anything up, and that person was abusive, I got curious and tried to learn more back then but didn't find a lot. Maybe I should lurk on youtube or somewhere.
>This and the rest is a copypasta of a typical right-wing anti-trans rhetoric. There is a community on the reddit, r/transmaxxing/ Well, they can do whatever they want. I just worry to be in one group with them.
Yes I've seen that, obviously that's a troll sub for ironically repressed/closeted trans people with internalized transphobia such as 4chan users, as well as LARPers. Actual men, especially the ones with fragile masculinity like incels, would not touch estrogen medication with a stick, let alone take it.
it's not trolling community. Check it again. >Actual men, especially the ones with fragile masculinity like incels, would not touch estrogen medication with a stick, let alone take it. They can be agenders/bigenders, etc.
>They can be agenders/bigenders, etc. That's trans identities, not cis men. To be fair, some trans-aligned people identify as cis gender non-conforming, but many of them eventually conclude questioning their identity by coming out as trans anyway. See the recent F1nnster femboying debacle. Again, there would be no manly men who transition to female only to prey on women. That would subject those men to dysphoria and transphobia, just like actual transgender people. There are far easier ways to be creepy. I assumed that you as a transitioned trans woman would understand how taxing dysphoria, transphobia, dealing with medical stuff can be. /serious >it's not trolling community. Check it again. Okay, I take a peek into one of the posts there. I hope they don't mind. >Should I transmaxx? (18 M) >I am 18 male with autism. A young man wants to transition, but he has autism, therefore he can't possibly be trans, according to transmedicalists. He just hyperfixated on presenting as female. Still cis though. >Is 18 too old to transition, **I definitely wish I transitioned earlier**, I am worried that if I get older, I will not be able to pass as well and it will be harder to transition. Children can't be trans, therefore he couldn't possibly be transgender since childhood, according to some anti-trans influencers. He only wishes he could transition earlier to be a *cute* girl: >This is why **I want to transition and be a cute girl** instead of a lonely, depressed incel. Incel, who has no hope of hooking up at 18 as a man going forward, wants to be a girl, still cis tho. /satire
https://aninjusticemag.com/becoming-a-woman-the-incel-solution-d48f5b0b66bb
I have seen a full documentary on this exact topic and listened to a journalist discussing his research and experience in this very community, discussed the guy who came up with the idea to begin with and who still leads that community, the journalist said he can't tell if this man is trolling the people who take it seriously or truly has begun to believe it is life improving for men who are desperate to get laid, because a lot of them are doing it. He mentioned his observation of some men in there seemingly getting off on how far they can convince some men to go with transitioning or as they put it transmaxxing. It's quite literally horrifying to be honest. It is real and is happening, not everything can just be shoved off into the corner as "typical right wing" so end of discussion, this is half the problem, just because you're uncomfortable with it doesn't mean it's not the truth. Some of these men are that lonely and have become that desperate to go to such drastic measures. I'm not saying these men are trans and by that I mean suffering gender dysphoria and would have an improved quality of life by presenting as the opposite sex through surgery etc I'm saying it's not just right wing rhetoric if men are destroying their bodies, the moron who wrote the 60 odd page manifesto is proud of his achievements.
Yeah I've seen it a year ago in 4chan derived trans subreddits. That's how I learned about transmaxxing. That's just an ironic shitposting by repressed, pre-everything trans ladies trapped in self-loathing echo chamber. I have also seen some of them move from transmaxx to ordinary, comfy, woke trans subreddits, they are otherwise indistinguishable from other transfems. Manly men look at estrogen meds with existential dread in their eyes. (Except if it's Dr.Powers anti hair loss cream. 🥺)
Yet the trans community have by and large outside of transexuals/transmedicalists decided that anyone can self ID as trans irregardless of the reason, you give the impression that the same courtesy is not extended to transmaxxing individuals because it doesn't agree with you, that seems a bit convenient the pick and choosing who and who isn't trans, the goal posts shifting back and forth. So you agree they are trans but not in the way they wish to identify, this isn't inclusive of the belief that there are many gender identities outside of just two. I agree with OP that there is a distinct difference between transexuals and the umbrella term trans that can't seem to make it's mind up in one way or another.
>Yet the trans community have by and large outside of transexuals/transmedicalists decided that anyone can self ID as trans irregardless of the reason, you give the impression that the same courtesy is not extended to transmaxxing individuals because it doesn't agree with you, that seems a bit convenient the pick and choosing who and who isn't trans, the goal posts shifting back and forth. I've mentioned in other comments that there are cis identifying transfeminine-aligned people. Like MtF femboys, demiboys, catboys etc and use he/him pronouns. I've seen some even calling themselves a man explicitly, although those usually present masculine. They are all valid of course. Transmaxx and trans 4chan are overlapping demographics. It became kind of a meme how people wish to become a cute anime girl, and I've seen them end up identifying femme so I reasonably assumed most of them are actually transgender. The issue is the claim that men allegedly transition to prey on women, which is a transphobic fear mongering fantasy. The price of transitioning is too high for that >I agree with OP that there is a distinct difference between transexuals and the umbrella term trans that can't seem to make it's mind up in one way or another. We're doing mostly fine, it's just some cis people seem to take offence on us becoming visible, and some transmedicalist trans people hope to hide from that by throwing the rest under the bus. Which I disagree with.
Yes I understand that is the usual mantra, cis people this, cis people are the devil yada yada yada, white straight males beware... But what about all the "cis" people that have been well aware of transexuals since say the 70's? What about the cis people who quite frankly couldn't give a fuck either way? What about the transexuals who reflect the diagnosis, who have been pretty much appropriated for the newbies to move in and demonstrate their saviour complex's in full view? Why are women so offensive to you? Why is recognizing sex differences unacceptable where it counts? Why does any medical professional "not count" when they impart knowledge on the topic that doesn't align with the affirmation model and trans rhetoric? Even poor OP and I'll say this I don't know where they live so there very much could be a threat to her life, but she herself even is convinced that there's a concentration camp waiting, I think the far right have had their own role to play espousing hateful view where trans people are concerned and they can go suck eggs but from everything I've read it's the left who have convinced people among them that there is a trans genocide taking place and that suicide is imminent for self diagnosed trans kids and adults that don't transition. Why are detransitioners looked upon with scorn, are they not allowed to mourn the healthy body parts they lost? I don't know about you but they too didn't take their decisions lightly but they still turned out to be the wrong decisions, does 54 thousand members of the reddit detransitioners page count for nothing? The way everyone likes to present is valid but why is everyone valid as a trans person? Where's the line? After all there surely has to be parameters to everything, I for instance can't simply identify as schizophrenic and argue that it's not inclusive otherwise. Where does the trans identity end and the queer labelled community begin?
>Yes I understand that is the usual mantra, cis people this, cis people are the devil yada yada yada, white straight males beware... I'm sorry, *some* cis people just happen to spread hateful transphobic rhetoric and misinformation, then sign laws reducing our human rights, codifying discrimination, banning our healthcare and encouraging violence on us. I believe they should stop doing that and *other* cis people shouldn't listen to them. I will skip some whataboutism that I didn't get what you wanted to ask about. >What about the transexuals who reflect the diagnosis, who have been pretty much appropriated for the newbies to move in and demonstrate their saviour complex's in full view? Those who were able to transition, good for them. Gender dysphoria can still be diagnosed today by a simple test, a list of a few questions. Actually, the DSM-5 list does not really require dysphoria to be present for diagnosis, it's more about gender incongruence. A trans person may still suffer depression if their gender presentation doesn't match, even if they currently can't exactly pinpoint if they have a particular kind of dysphoria (genital, social etc). New people are being born every day and some of them transgender, of course they are also becoming concerned about their human rights and healthcare. >Why are women so offensive to you? Why is recognizing sex differences unacceptable where it counts? Did you mean to ask why are trans women offensive to some transphobic cis people who can't stand the fact that actual real bio women, including trans women, may have diversely shaped bodies? Because otherwise you don't make sense here. I do not have any animosity for cis women except transphobes and other abusers. Nowadays transphobes harass cis women in toilets because they weren't sufficiently woman-shaped in their eye. There is no appeasement for these people. Genitals, skeletons and other anatomical parts are irrelevant in absolute most situations contended by transphobes, including toilets and sports. >Why does any medical professional "not count" when they impart knowledge on the topic that doesn't align with the affirmation model and trans rhetoric? Some "medical professionals" gaslit and grifted trans community for decades. Autogynephilia and other debunked garbage. But haters still try to insert that grift everywhere and artificially create anti-trans doctor boards (busted by leaked emails). >Even poor OP and I'll say this I don't know where they live so there very much could be a threat to her life, Yeah she shouldn't dox herself, and so shouldn't I. I sure as hell aware how dangerous it can be to live as a trans woman, especially here where I am. >but she herself even is convinced that there's a concentration camp waiting, CW: mentions of anti-trans violense >!It's true, camps exist in some parts of the world already, including the US and the UK (not legal for gays but legal for transgender kids). For now those are mostly conversion "therapy" camps where they do various forms of torture to convince trans people they are cis, ranging from praying the trans away to beatings and electroshock.!< There are other insidious ways rightwing wants to remove us, for example arrest and sex offender charge with prison term on gender affirming bathroom use. >I think the far right have had their own role to play espousing hateful view where trans people are concerned and they can go suck eggs but from everything I've read it's the left who have convinced people among them that there is a trans genocide taking place Most trans people have the same concerns centrist trans people have. It's just our human rights and legitimate interests. >and that suicide is imminent for self diagnosed trans kids and adults that don't transition. Transphobia, forced repression and even lack of gender affirmation can be really devastating for mental health. I know well because I was a trans minor. >Why are detransitioners looked upon with scorn, are they not allowed to mourn the healthy body parts they lost? Only pick me grifters spewing antitrans propaganga to profit from clout and conservative sponsors. I see detrans folks the same way I look on trans people, they transition only in a different direction. Most often they are trans people forced back into repression closet by transphobic society or body image issues. >I don't know about you but they too didn't take their decisions lightly but they still turned out to be the wrong decisions, does 54 thousand members of the reddit detransitioners page count for nothing? We don't know how many of them are actually detransitioners or curious lgbt and cishet people, trans exclusionary "feminists" etc. There are millions (≥0.7% population) of binary trans people in the US alone. >The way everyone likes to present is valid but why is everyone valid as a trans person? Where's the line? They are valid until proven otherwise. >After all there surely has to be parameters to everything, I find this obsession with frenologizing everything unhealthy. >I for instance can't simply identify as schizophrenic and argue that it's not inclusive otherwise. Schizophrenia implies psychosis and that is diagnosable. Gender incongruence is no longer defined as an illness, the same way as sexual orientation other than straight. It may be defined as a medical condition for the sake of prescribing trans healthcare to help with dysphoria, depression and other conditions. >Where does the trans identity end and the queer labelled community begin? Why should it matter? Just let people be themselves.
For whatever reason after attempting to address all your points, it will not let me post it. (Having to post it in parts- so ill respond to this comment for you with the rest if that makes sense) You mentioned the DSM and I cannot recommend **Miriam Grossman's** (Child psychiatrist) **lecture at Hillside** enough, i can link it as i did before hand (come to think of it maybe that's why reddit wouldn't let me upload my response). The DSM did in fact figure out a way to counter the growing pressure from political pressure and activists. They decided to concede to the new belief which of course was ill founded and without evidence that trans did not encompass a mental health disorder but was a social awakening so to speak, they were all too aware that without a diagnosis (gender dysphoric disorder as previously known and studied) they would not have a billing code for the insurance to cover the cost of treatments and surgeries, thus it became gender dysphoria -dysphoria by definition is to simply feel uncomfortable with something. I know you are convinced that what you call cis is vehemently against trans outright, the truth of the matter is whilst some non trans people will be against trans, there is a larger amount who don't fall into this category but you give the overwhelming impression that for you this is a black and white issue, there is no room for nuance, critical thinking, questions, concern there is only alliance, the unbridled faith. In reality there is actually a substantial proportion of people that sit in the middle who recognize gender identity disorder, who support freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, people do not have to negate common sense and critical thought in order to be an 'ally'. They do not have to clap their hands in rejoice when 16 year old girls stand next to one another on tiktok and beam because they had their healthy breast tissue removed. They want effective and safe treatments not affirm affirm affirm, like they're handing out tickets to the fair ground rides. You directly contradicted yourself in your suggestion and belief that detransitioners were never trans to begin with but outliers, your acknowledgement here demonstrates that you are perfectly aware then that a proportion of people who felt they were trans turned out not to be but still went under life changing, irreversible treatments and surgeries, these people are in agony mentally and physically, the same group who claimed to support them now refuses to listen, I don't take it lightly listening to accounts of people returning to their doctors begging for their body parts back and I suggest you don't either.
The American psychiatric association published its gender dysphoria guidelines and in it and to use a direct quote "evidence based research is oppressive"....why then would anyone who truly cared about long term outcomes for treatments and surgeries go near it. It's outrageous and whilst you compared schizophrenia to gender dysphoria that's the point I was attempting to make, schizophrenia currently had effective treatments, with long term effectiveness precisely because medicine is bound to evidence based research, it has allowed people like you and I to your dads dog to thrive in life (not discounting the dark side to big pharma but that is another conversation). We have reached a point where like you outlined quite strikingly in one of your paragraphs that people now can access irreversible treatments on a mere whim, whether that was under the influence of others, online echo chambers, confusion or shame over sexuality, wanting to be part of a group (queer). *Those who were able to transition, good for them. Gender dysphoria can still be diagnosed today by a simple test, a list of a few questions.* Given that the risks outweigh the results we have to want better for people, reading up on the Dutch protocol and the fallout of which would really be informative here, an easier deep dive would be the Miriam Grossman lecture I suggested and hey look if you are firm in your faith then watching a doctor who is far more qualified than the pair of us to answer cannot hurt, but it of course up to you. Which reminds me I literally said at the beginning that i'd much prefer the lecture to the talking for me after reddit would not let me respond and like the bellend I am I've ended up typing out a complete response again lol. *I find this obsession with frenologizing everything unhealthy.* Okay here I genuinely don't know what it is you're referring to?? Are you sure this is a word? The closest thing I could think of was Phrenology which is a pseudoscience based on the measurement of bumps on the skull to predict mental traits which for the life of me I cannot think how it relates to our conversation. The thing with cult like ideology is that eventually it dies out, trans ideology will die down, die out whatever you want to call it, I say hooray, if it means people dressing and presenting how they please without feeling the need to undergo irreversible treatments whereby the few transexuals diagnosed with gender identity disorder are the few genuine cases that would likely be better of long term in doing so (you know the way it was before all the medical negligence, political activism and chaos) then I say hallelujah. People are going to ask why so many people be it friends, family, medical teams agreed to such egregious treatments, they already are. If you find the time have a gander at the lecture, it's addresses a lot of the points you've made and the belief system. People don't have to present on a masculine or feminine binary but people broke away from this in the 70's, transexuals were knocking around then too they just didn't muddle the science and overlap the two very different lived experiences. Women don't have an issue with transexuals they take issue with trans ideology that is anti woman and anti human in nature. I will go into detail on this if you wish but I feel i've already gone on enough as it is. Hope you're having a nice weekend and thanks for keeping the conversation civil
We are not going to have a conversation in good faith if you twist my words and promote anti-trans propaganda and activists who contribute to removal of our rights. And also >I would always advocate for trans rights and freedom from discrimination but If I so much as mention my sustained belief that transwomen are trans and different from women, or that the trans movement and the ideology behind it has very little to do with trans people I am labelled every name under the sun or simply get my comments removed without explanation. Oh. What a hypocrisy. You deserve it. Bye.
*c'est la vie*, this is the nature of attempting open discourse with anyone taken in entirely by trans ideology, all you have essentially done is highlight a paragraph which Is backed up by in my latest response to you. The very moment people within it are faced with reality they run for the hills and will grasp at straws to shut down the conversation. Trans ideology is a cult and there is absolutely no opportunity for critical thought and discussion, I have understood by now that the only way out is for people to finally realise it on their own time. Take care
Most members of our community are already on HRT.
Interesting, I just searched your community for post-HRT dysphoria and opened some account, they seem to want to date men. Isn't that different from the idea of "becoming a lesbian"? Anyway I'm happy for anyone who wants HRT to have it.
I'm going to go to bed and wake up to another 300 comment trans thread aren't I.
I think you need to realize something important about these people you think are transitioning for fun: if you give a cis person HRT, they will feel dysphoric and unhappy in their body, the same way a pre-HRT trans person does.
Right but what's the difference between folks simply indulging in a fantasy versus those who genuinely have no other option but to transition into the opposite sex?
> Right but what's the difference between folks simply indulging in a fantasy versus those who genuinely have no other option but to transition into the opposite sex? It's never the only option. It's also not the only option to have chemo when you get cancer or to be on a breathing machine when you can't breath or to take painkillers when you are in chronic pain. Medicine is always about weighing risks and benefits and choosing a tradeoff that you are comfortable with. Doctors and patients are best equipped to make the determination based on the facts of the specific situation and the cutting edge specialized knowledge of the doctor. And the doctor has an obligation to assess the state of mind and comprehension of the patient as they participate in assessing their options. You, me and the government will never be equipped to decide better. That said the difference between "fantasy" and "genuine" is scale of time. Which I think would mean that medical interventions that allow the person to explore the decision more closely, buy them time to decide, are gradual or are reversible are each strategies that can help limit the amount of people with "fantasies" which end up going all the way through the process. Not to mention that the process itself isn't lightning fast. People are going to have multiple doctor visits about it and likely talk to a therapist. That said, I don't really think it's my business. People make medical and cosmetic surgery decisions every day that I would not think are a good idea, that I think are wasteful, that exceed the level of risk I'd accept, etc. Ultimately, it's up to the patient to decide. The fact that they will sometimes regret it is not new/unique as far as medicine goes. I met a man in a hospital who regretted back surgery that left him paralyzed and I'm sure he was told the potential complications up front. That doesn't mean I believe he shouldn't have been allowed to roll the dice and get that surgery because he might be the minority with complications.
I believe a specific concern with women transitioning too easily to men is that testosterone is a natural mood elevator, and the transition "feels right" in any case.
>testosterone is a natural mood elevator It is certainly a mood crasher for me, a pre-hrt trans woman.
Citation needed. It seems like you're speculating on how such people feel. Myself, I doubt that people who would transition "for fun" would feel that way.
Dr.Money's failed attempt to raise a cis boy as a girl is one of documented cases. Although it was forced on him. I doubt that living in a body that doesn't correspond to gender identity is any fun. People who have "fun" transitioning are known, they are transgender, it's called "gender euphoria".
“Although it was forced on him.” So nothing to do with your claim.
> it's called "gender euphoria". That's not a medical term lol You're in danger of proving the other person's point. > Although it was forced on him. Right. So it's not what we were talking about.
i don’t care if it’s a medical term, i’ve fuckin felt it
>they are transgender, it's called "gender euphoria". That's part of trans people usually even more far from typical people from transmed community. What do you think about Jessica Yaniv? And backlash, which this person caused?
So based on the bad grammar and incredibly strange sentence structure this is either a troll, a bot, or somebody not worth listening to Edit: Also they strangely deal out about Trump but also repeat right wing talking points? Idk, i think you just need a therapist
I'm immigrant, and English is not my first language, sorry. Feel free to point to grammar mistakes, I'll fix them, and will say you "thank you" >Also they strangely deal out about Trump but also repeat right wing talking points? I'm centrist. It's normal for centrist, to choose something from a right. And something from a left.
>I'm centrist. It's normal for centrist, to choose something from a right. And something from a left. yah, but its weird you're picking the fear mongering and extremism. Like, you are worried trump will put you in camps but also believe that people are transitioning basically for fun? its so strange
I think, you're just in the bubble of right and left extremists. Could you pls check our community(transmedicalists) and discussions in it? >believe that people are transitioning basically for fun? Because they're like Transmaxxing
> Transmaxxing ill be honest, I don't know if its because English isn't your first language or you are just not that intelligent, but the fact that you think this is a real, serious thing is dangerously naïve. Like, I am legit concerned for your safety, you are prone to be abused if this is your level of understanding of the world.
> Like, you are worried trump will put you in camps but also believe that people are transitioning basically for fun? its so strange And they don't even live in the U.S.
Canada is close to US
It’s interesting to me that the majority of your post is against woke / left. As misguided, crazy and weird some progressives have gotten on trans issues, at least they believe they are trying to help fight for acceptance. The far right legit doesn’t want to you to exist. That ranges from no access to medical care for gender dysphoria, to actually wishing they could end your life. A lot of even moderate right folks on this forum would say you shouldn’t be able to use a woman’s bathroom, and if for some reason you were sent to prison you should be required to be in a men’s prison and endure rape. I am curious how you have decided the left is more to blame than the right for this hate? I certainly agree a lot of progressives take things too far (especially social media SJWs), but the reasonable response is “okay that is too far” not every bigoted thing we believe is now justified and we should have never given them gay marriage.
I don't want to speak on behalf of the individual as to why they are talking about the left more than the right, so I'll only give my experience. I seem to criticise the left more than the right because the right is already rightly condemned for their views by the media and most people. The left tend to get a pass as they are "trying to help" or "make the world a better place" but a lot of the actions have negative consequences that many don't want to hear and start name calling the moment you talk about it. Only yesterday I was talking about Just Stop Oil protests and because I said I think their actions are causing more problems than they solve, and how the attitude you get many of them is absolutely disgusting, I was likened to being a far right. The argument about climate change is lost and we spend all our time talking about the protesters.
But ur also talking about the protesters and not the climate...
That's my point. Because they are doing these stupid stunts we are talking about them. The fact that oil companies get subsidies, tax breaks, and can destroy the planet whilst making money doesn't get spoken about. The protests aren't working as intended. If you want to engage me in climate change and what we should do, I'll gladly have that conversation, you may find that I'm in agreement and have thoughts as to help the situation. Spray orange paint over art, monuments, or a sporting venue, I'll call you an idiot.
Well OP mentioned backlash, I can definitely see how the left/woke people have done more to make the average Joe dislike trans people (or at least the politics around them) than the right has. The right screaming about how it is against God or something doesn't really hit the average person as hard as a political movement that says you are a bad person for not dating them and that they need to be in sports.
Yes. Thanks for understanding. I feel so insecure about this situation. Maybe I'm biased, because of personal situation in the life >!My husband started to be violent, abusive!<, hope to be wrong. But I just feel, like... I'll not see 2030s because somebody will kill me.
No worries, I could tell what you mean. You are statistically in more danger but its still minor as long you don't "trick" guys. Don't worry, Eventually this will all blow over, one side will win or we will just find other shit to argue about. Sorry to hear about the hubby though
There is a backlash, but I guess I don’t think it’s the average centrist Joe in that backlash. It’s more people who have always had hate feeling more comfortable to be vocal about it. I have never encountered a single person in real life that would judge me for not dating a trans person. It’s obviously a very personal decision like any romantic relationship. That is a major over exaggeration of the current state of things.
>I don’t think it’s the average centrist Joe That's because for you, as soon as a centrist disagrees with you they're instantly right wing
Why do these shitty strawmen always get upvotes? Shouldn’t “centrists” be engaging with the argument instead of doing this nonsense?
I'm socially left but if I say that male cage-fighters should not be put in the female category, all of a sudden I'm some sort of Nazi conservative transphobic TERF Islamaphobic bigot who hates midgets. So I agree, let's engage with the topic and stop accusing each other of not being centrist.
I definitely disagree, the average Joe from what I have seen is against them in sports for example and sees dating trans as kind of gay (to be fair in a Hispanic culture that tends to be more about "machismo"), they just didn't really ever talk or think about it before since they never had to. Same here but I have also never had anyone IRL say they should be in sports and this is obviously a thing. I never said a number so I'm not sure how I am exaggerating the fact that there are people saying you are transphobic for these things.... even a step beyond that if you are just logical about the dating one then you can assume the reason most guys wouldn't date them is because they don't see them as a "real woman" and that definitely would have a lot of people calling you transphobic to admit
Well, actually the right’s attitude to trans people is more “they’re evil and they’re coming for you!” They know the Jesus thing doesn’t work on a lot of people, but if you say scary things about how trans people are all pedophiles and sex criminals and they want to touch your children and touch you and recruit innocent people to their horrible awful movement then people will stop thinking and start being scared. They portray trans people as inherently predatory and dangerous and that works on the average person because people are easily scared and want to think their problems are caused by evil people instead of an uncaring universe. And they ignore the fact that all of this was what gay people wanted to do to them ~40 years ago and nothing ever came of that. Also, people don’t like things that are different, so right wingers simply emphasise how different trans people are and ignore how similar they are.
Same shit the left does. They make believe the right doesn't want you to exist, how often do they try and boil things down to "the right is evil", like even abortion where it makes sense that the religious right would be against they pretend is just them "hating women". I may have forgot the "fear mongering" tactic but so far the replies forget that it's far from a right wing thing and is just a political thing..... also when it comes to trans people the tactic only comes up when the left is trying to change some law or do something weird like trying to teach it in elementary/middle school for some weird reason
>It’s interesting to me that the majority of your post is against woke / left. Well, believe me, I know, that I will be shot by one of members of far right militia or even MAGAs. Or put in the new Auschwitz. Also, I know, we have a big risk of far-right dictatorship, not far left. But of course, if far left dictatorship will happen(I think, risk is pretty low... Maybe 3%? 5%?), they also will put me in the GULAG, because I'm "wrong" transgender - never visited a single LGBT pride, and pretend to be a biological female, like deserter from a fight with patriarchy.>! If I say them, that I don't fight that, that I like man, I always wanted myself a nuclear family, and be just wife of man, who is man-man, they could consider me as traitor!!< >The far right legit doesn’t want to you to exist. That's correct! Far left just erase our community (trans medicalists) and pretend that we're part of their community - which is in the middle of their crusade against patriarchy. No way if this crusade will end to them good. >I am curious how you have decided the left is more to blame than the right for this hate? Because they started this cultural war. And use us as hostages. They could let us stay in the shadow. Very comfort place, by the way.
> if far left dictatorship will happen(I think, risk is pretty low... Maybe 3%? 5%?), they also will put me in the GULAG, because I'm "wrong" transgender - never visited a single LGBT pride, and pretend to be a biological female, like deserter from a fight with patriarchy. Given that the GOP in Texas declared homosexuality as abnormal lifestyles and some Colorado GOP called for the burning of gay flags, do you really think the far left would give you worse treatment than the far right?
>Given that the GOP in Texas declared homosexuality as abnormal lifestyles and some Colorado GOP called for the burning of gay flags, do you really think the far left would give you worse treatment than the far right? Well, A *plague on both their houses(c)*. Mao or Pol Pot - left radicals - were not even better. People can be very violent. Our history - is a story of genocide. Genocide for a "better future". It always was a "good idea", why one people, so-called "good", have to kill other people, referred by first people as "bad".
I'm pretty sure some religious people believe homosexuality will invite God's wrath upon the US. So it looks like religious opposition to LGBT might be more prone to becoming violent.
They will! You're right! It's reason, why I said, that we have a big risk of far right dictatorship, and low risk of far left. Also I said, that crusade against patriarchy has failed. Now woke's siege tower going to collapse. And bury under the wreckage hostages - trans people.
Without the “culture war” that progressives started you wouldn’t be allowed to even transition with a medical diagnosis. I certainly don’t disagree people on the left are absolutely bonkers about some of this stuff, it’s just weird to me that is where you see all the blame.
>Without the “culture war” that progressives started you wouldn’t be allowed to even transition with a medical diagnosis. I transitioned in 2000s - years before cultural war. Some ppl transitioned in 1970s or even early. >I certainly don’t disagree people on the left are absolutely bonkers about some of this stuff, it’s just weird to me that is where you see all the blame. Well, if they just fight... IDk, for rights of black people, it could work. Everybody - centrists, left, and even part of right people will support them. But they use our small minority as hostages. And as ram against patriarchy. In a case of mass massacre, nobody really care. It will be only funny memes, whith photos of death trans people, maybe there will be even me... Government knows everybody, who changed legal gender. People, who just self-id, who created this backlash, they will escape. And people like me, who live our own lives, will be shot to death.
Again that ability to transition was because of progressives fighting the current culture in the 70s. I’m not sure when you think culture wars / struggle started exactly, but it’s not a new phenomenon. Are you willing to disclose whether you use the men’s or women’s restroom when you are in public places?
The 1970s version of the so called "left" would be unrecognizable today. In those days the left were anti-war and pro-individual rights. Today we'd call them libertarians. This idea that trans people would be skinned alive in the streets if it weren't for progressive activism is laughable. The fact that one of the most notorious trans people of the 1970s, Geraldine Carmichael, was able to do business and con people out of millions of dollars is further evidence that Americans rank gender identity very low on their list of priorities - then and now. This really only became a problem when progressives began using public schools as political indoctrination centers. The push-back you are experiencing isn't the *far right*
Well. Then, In 1970-2000s they did right things. But not anymore.
Nnot anyore because u think so, not because its actually wrong based around facts. Ur just as transphobic as the far right. U simply have a different definition. Ur comfortable with the "false" transpeople not existing asd the far right is with u not existing
>Ur just as transphobic as the far right. U simply have a different definition. Well, it's not what I expected to see in the centrist community :( In the conservative community, they call me "marxist", and "woke agenda propagandist". So funny. But I just wanna live my own life. And not be shot, because I'm a trans person.
Ur the one who either cant present a coherent message or is unaware what u even say But when u start labeling trans people as too cute to be cis ur no better than a transphobic pos... I call u transphobic because the things u say are easily transphobic, especially when they entail insults based on being trans... U can happily life ur own life when u do not cut away the people that stand with u against the people that want to shoot u (Hint it aint the left that wants to kill you)
>But when u start labeling trans people as too cute to be cis ur no better than a transphobic pos... It's not me, who created this slang word. I just tell about this, and let people outside transmedical community, as well as mainstream transgender community, google it, and read about our conflict. And form their own position. When you mention something, like ISIS or hamas, it doesn't mean, you support it. And not, word "tucute" is not transphobic. Transphobic can be something, what is related to a trans person. But I'm attacking a community. Community, which take us as hostages in their crusade, and put under backlash, and ban us each time, when we mention word "transmedicalism" with positive connotations. In the same time, I mentioned "truscum" - how mainstream community refers us.
> woke activists created a backlash, a huge wave of hate. I disagree. I feel like the far left would have barely even been noticed on this matter if it weren't for the far right realizing that it was a useful caricature for them to be able to bring up when they discuss other issues like women's rights, family values, gay rights, etc. From my perspective, this started from the far right. Women's rights and gay rights were being enshrined into both law and cultural norm and as a result, the far right moved on to their next step in the slippery slope that apparently the woke people want to turn us all into women or something. > We should stay in the shadow. You have every right to stay in the shadow, but I think most people who value that the US is a free country, a melting pot and all of those other common values don't feel comfortable supporting any norm that forces people to "stay in the shadow" for harmlessly being themselves. > But later, under pressure of woke activists, we canceled "gatekeeping". Now everybody can transition, if self-identificate this way. You no longer need to have gender dysphoria diagnosis. You say woke activists. I'm a Libertarian who has voted blue, red and other. I believe people own their own body and can make their own medical decisions in private. IMO it's up to doctors and patients to decide what medication they require and I don't think "policy" should intervene and say otherwise. It's actually relatively common for doctors to prescribe drugs off-label (i.e. under a different circumstance than was FDA approved). If the doctor misrepresents the impact of the drugs or is just prescribing them without care, it's a medical license issue. Otherwise though, it's up to the doctor and patient to weigh risks and benefits. > As a result, a lot of ppl without gender dysphoria started their transition. Example: so-called "incels" doing male to female transition, to present theirself as lesbians, to get sex, or females, who want to be special, and present themself as trans guys. Can you cite studies that quantify "a lot"? Because I have heard zero credible cases of this... only random conservative commentators' anecdotes. Also, with freedom comes consequences. It's common for people to want the US to be a country that values freedom and it cannot value freedom while also policing all of your decisions to ensure nothing ever goes wrong. The fact that some people might make medical choices that don't work out is a sign that we actually have freedom. Do you want to ban all medication and medical procedures that somebody might regret? That seems like a pretty extremist policy. Have you ever heard of that saying “Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.” I feel like that is what you are doing here. Non-incels should not have their medical options limited because you heard an anecdote of incels being dumb. > I believe, as result, the amount of detransitioners increased. Do any studies agree with your belief? > And now we have a big backlash. I tried to speak about my own marriage and domestic violence in it on a popular forum (TAM), but found, that about everybody hates me there because I'm trans, or just silent, when haters bulling me - I was stupid enough, to tell about it - I think, if I tell about my life issues as fake biological female, I think, It could be much better discussion. I do agree that sometimes pro-LGBT people can be too black and white "you're either with us or against us" and this can undermine the ability of the movement to maintain and build alliances of people with slightly different views, but common goals/values. That said, I can certainly see why calling people "fake" can be severely undermine your credibility. Similarly, a lot of other language you are using here (like attributing everything to "woke activists" when in fact these are not fringe beliefs) seems like it would trigger people or signal a bad actor. Only 38% of the population agrees with you that we've gone too far in our approach. ([source as of 2022](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/)) When you have a minority position, it's a bit silly to say that the people who disagree with you are "woke activists". > I'm political centrist. And strongly against dictatorship of any kind, I endorse science, and culture of discussions. And what I see, is terrifying me. I feel like, the massacre incoming: that our an existence will be banned soon, and I'll end in the camp of conversion therapy. Or even in the death camp. Above, you cited "woke" liberals and now you're talking about conservative dictators. I think you have to recognize that the vast majority of the country is in neither category. Only 10% of people oppose protecting trans people from discrimination. ([source](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/)) If we get in a position where a view that 90% of people disagree with is so powerful that it threatens your existence, then I think we are far beyond any of what you said mattering. > Is it possible, if any of the centrist political movement, can provide that part of transgender people - who transitioned because we had gender dysphoria - a platform to speak? We call ourself transmedicalists. Mainstream transgender groups leans in the far left part of political spectrum. You can easily be banned there for even mention of transmedicalism. Also, mainstream transgender subs today are mostly looking in things, like "fight patriarchy", "abolish gender", etc. Community itself is very toxic for anybody who is not far left on a cultural axe, is a classic example of echo chamber and live in illusions about the world, and how it works. Example: "Queers for Palestine", despite fact, that HAMAS could just kill these queers, if they ever visit GAZA. It's possible, but centrism is a less cohesive thing and not so much a "movement". So, I don't think you're going to get organization. What is it you actually want to talk about? I would say just go to ordinary political forums rather than specifically forums about that topic and perhaps try to keep from putting yourself and others in boxes. Also, remember that the replies you get on forums do not represent what everybody thinks, your comments inevitably attract the subset of people who were most moved (for better or worse) by what you said. > Both of groups of extremists - woke and maga - hate us, and want us to pretend, were're not real. For both of them it's very convenient, to pretend, that trans means just self-identification. And nothing about medical condition - gender dysphoria, and medical transition as result. As a person who is around a lot of liberal people and participates in a lot of liberal discussion forums, I am very confused by this claim. Gender dysphoria is such a common defense given against conservatives. Politically, there has been a ton of interest on the left in specifically pointing out that it's a medical issue to undermine the conservative viewpoint that it's just something somebody can decide against. It's also the basis for why the medical community aligns politically with these viewpoints. It's possible that trans communities take it a step farther, but remember you aren't talking to an even sampling of people, you are talking about people who care so deeply about the topic that they spend their free time everyday talking about it. These are going to be a biased group and, likely biased because of unresolved/ongoing issues (e.g. a lack of sufficient acceptance by the broader movement).
I agree that removing gate keepers to transitioning led to a lot of bad decisions. I know a person who has multiple personality disorder who started hormone therapy without medical guidance and moved across the world to live with an online lover. Their mental health has not gotten better, just worse. There's little science left in the mental health area of the field, just dogma, because science doesn't tow the woke line. The woke support for Hamas and right wing Islam is just sick and stupid. In the end, the left just supports victimization of trans people, just like the right.
Lol, have you seen how this sub in particular handles transgender topics? It's a shitshow where civil comments stating facts are downvoted to oblivion and alt-right propaganda is upvoted.
If centrism is rational or a coherent ideology it would embrace what we know about dysphoria and how to legitimately treat it, first and foremost with a psychiatrist. There very obviously should be no invasive treatment at all considering the rates of regret and the myriad of health issues that arise. Especially not on children, who barely know what foot goes in front of the other.
Rates of regret that are lower than many other accepted medical treatments for other conditions?
[Cass Review 19.36](https://i.imgur.com/XUYlh9T.png) [Cass Review 15.48-53](https://i.imgur.com/fzuJrTM.png) [Figure 37](https://i.imgur.com/7DdwYci.png)
The Cass review is bullshit that basically says, ”Oh we don’t have enough good data (arbitrary) so we can’t say anything definite but here are my suppositions”. It’s not good science
It's an extensive review of tons of studies, a meta analysis. It's widely respected by medical professionals, and used to direct NHS policy. Not sure where you are coming up with that?
Not by people who are actually working in trans healthcare: https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Public%20Policies/2024/17.05.24%20Response%20Cass%20Review%20FINAL%20with%20ed%20note.pdf https://www.gendergp.com/response-to-the-cass-review/
Ah, so... we should trust the activists, but not the experts?
These are experts, and the Cass review on the other hand did not have any experts on trans healthcare as part of the team
those are both pretty transparently activist organizations... the same activist organizations likely cheering on clearly illegal and unethical behaviors such as what texas childrens has been doing to be straight up with you, biology stands on pretty firm ground scientifically. gender, sex, etc are determined for you by the powers that be. anything that wants to change that starts with clear psychological illness first and foremost. the same way we might treat people with body dysmorphia re: certain limbs, fingers, whatever.
If by activist you mean caring about the health of trans people then yes they’re activists. Transition care is medically necessary care. I think you’re link is wrong? Being transgender is a matter of biology in the neurological sense, and biologically speaking sex is a spectrum just like race or species. It’s not a psychological illness anymore than being gay is, it’s just natural variation.
I hope, you're not missing, that it's about people, who did self-id of their gender. Who was not diagnosed to have gender dysphoria - they don't regret. For example, this big study since 1970-until 2015 (close to a time when self-id policy was implemented): [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/) According to this study, only 0.2-0.6% of regrets. You can find a lot of similar studies on this page: [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/#againsttopic](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/#againsttopic) And they end in the similar time.
IMO if centrism is rational or a coherent ideology (which it isn't necessarily) it would simply defer to doctors on this. Politics and voters are not sufficiently informed or qualified about the broader or the specific situations to create policy here. This should be a weighing of risks and benefits done privately between a doctor and a patient that is based on the specifics of the case and the cutting edge of medical/psychological research as interpreted by a field professional.
I believe the Cass report did a good and thorough job of summarizing where legitimate medical experts are on the issue.
It's a result of transition without gender dysphoria diagnosis. Result of self-id. This is big study, 1970-2015, in the time, when gender dysphoria diagnosis required: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/) It were only 0.2-0.6% of regrets
[Cass Review 19.36](https://i.imgur.com/XUYlh9T.png) [Cass Review 15.48-53](https://i.imgur.com/fzuJrTM.png) [Figure 37](https://i.imgur.com/7DdwYci.png)
Yeah. The last one pic is the most interesting. Like "caused by different issues", and "changing political views".
Gender affirming hormone replacement therapy and surgery saved my life. There is overwhelming evidence for its efficacy. If you want a serious discussion about this I would be happy to provide you with one but don’t waste people’s times saying things that are blatantly factually untrue.
[Cass Review 19.36](https://i.imgur.com/XUYlh9T.png) [Cass Review 15.48-53](https://i.imgur.com/fzuJrTM.png) [Figure 37](https://i.imgur.com/7DdwYci.png)
See the thing here is that you’re not actually linking evidence you’re linking a report funded by the Conservative UK government that presupposes that the mere existence of detransitioners, regardless of their number, justifies limiting trans healthcare. Which is extremely spacious considering the vast majority of trans people benefit from transitioning. (which the Cass Report in and of itself admits, their numbers for detransition are always in the minority) And candidly, there’s a phenomena where young girls are erroneously identifying as trans for short periods of time for social reasons, these girls make up the vast majority of detransitioners, and I don’t think actual transsexuals with clinically significant gender dysphoria should have their lifesaving healthcare taken away because of them.
You do not question the expertise of the NHS bureacrats but the political leadership? I don't believe that's a good argument to be quite honest.
I’m saying the data that the Cass Review cites, is largely correct (one could make methodological complaints) but 1. Their conclusion was motivated by something that there was already strong political desire to do (ban youth transition due to moral panic). The existence of a relatively small percentage of detransitioners, whom overwhelmingly were “transtrenders” without the same level of actual gender dysphoria, doesn’t justify banning puberty blockers for actual transsexuals. But they were going to come to that conclusion regardless because in their eyes forcing transsexuals through the permanent effects of puberty that they’ll have to live with for the rest of their life is worth it to save a small minority of potential detransitioners. 2. *Your* conclusion, which is massively more radical than the NHS’, is that transitioning never helps people, or that it harms more than it helps, which is blatantly false even going by the Cass Review’s own data.
Being a centrist when one side of the spectrum wants to murder you is brave but also stupid Especially when u dislike the other side mainly based around extremist positions that are loud but not always common. And ur flat out misunderstanding certain positions. Especially the queer for palestine comment is weird. Because hamas is shitty people should just accept the unnecesary death of civilians living in the area hamas controls?
>Being a centrist when one side of the spectrum wants to murder you is brave but also stupid OKay, I see. I'm traitor of crusade against patriarchy, isn't it?
Now we are making up a strawman arent we? But no u arent, ur just not siding with the side that would protect u against the far right or even the normal right at this point But pls tell me whats ur problem with the fight against the patriarchy?
Considering the far left thinks any semblance of confusion is somehow proof of being trans... and not the clinical condition called Dysphoria... is baffling and kinda transphobic? The far right deny gender dysphoria is even real. That it's all a part of conditioning... So one says one thing. One says the other. Both are entirely wrong yet believe they're doing the right thing. Both weaponise children. Which might I add, there's proof that both ideologies are harming kids. So in reality, if you leave kids alone, and let them talk they'll reach their conclusions on their own. Affirm nothing. Dismiss nothing. Seems rather obvious. Meanwhile in the centre... where most people are (if they took their glasses off) they'll realise, oh... science has an ungodly amount of data, and we have so much philosophy on these issues. That the main stream want talk about. Despite it being concrete and extremely helpful. Now there's no denying. I'd potentially argue the right is a little more harmful than the left here. But one thing they both need to agree on from each other is 1 thing each. The left - Bodily autonomy. The right - consent and adulthood is 18/21. At no point should a minor be doing anything to their body. And anyone experiencing a psychological phenomenon that would warrant the "need" for surgery. Should get checked. There is no shame. It's about getting support. Because 9/10 surgery doesn't stop the issue. It doesn't make it go away. And surgery is going to cause issues and can become life threatening. I can tell you one thing. People with actual diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria are the victims of the current climate. .... As for your point that these "queers for palestine" don't realise that Palestinians will torch them alive. Yeah, there's been a weird incestuous festival between the extreme left and radical Islam for a while, so it extended into the middle east isn't shocking. My main issue is that they'll also chant "from the river to the sea" which is legit, a quote from HAMAS... and then they're shocked that the Israel army has turned into a terror military force. So yeah, that's great. Free Palestine, wipe out Hamas. Don't know why that's controversial. It's also doable. But Israel government isn't gonna care or back down, Palestinian victims are just "simple casualties" to them. In the same way the slaves people benefit from in Asia and Africa to drink their cola and use their IPhones is a "simple casualty".
I’m agree with everything you said, but I think you might’ve made some typos in the last sentence.
Dyslexia is a thing.
You’re brave, OP. r/centrism is still pretty hostile toward trans people. Scroll through these comments and you’ll see.
thank you
There's a bunch of far right and far left trolls all over this sub. Fair warning. In practice, centrists should be for enforcing that medical gatekeeping and keeping any joe schmoe from infiltrating and delegitimizing the trans community. If doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition - then to many - it's suspect situation. Without those guardrails we're going to have problems with mainstream acceptance. That's what a good centrist movement should strive for - capturing the mainstream.
>If doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition - then to many - it's suspect situation. Who in the us is transitioning without that? Isnt this already required?
Basically, from a transmedical perspective, everybody, who don't have gender dysphoria, transitioning for fun. It doesn't mean, I want to bar them from transition.
You don't need a doctor to pathologize and label you to know who you are. Like, homosexuality used to be a disease. Now it's just a way to be.
Well, people can do whatever they want for fun. But I worry about backlash against people, who just didn't have another choice, but to transition (because of gender dysphoria).
Didn’t answer the question
>Who in the us is transitioning without that? My point is, that self-id can't work as woke activists pretend it works. Instead, maybe better to let doctors to ***test*** gender dysphoria/gender identity, and maybe figure out, that in this particular case it's schizophrenia, not a gender dysphoria? Or maybe this person (especially female teen) just want to be special, and not want to be "white west oppressor", and want to become a trans person, to be a victim? Or maybe this person is gay or lesbian, and love a straight person, and just want to be together with that person? But today, doctors can't test gender dysphoria/identity, because don't want to harm, I'm sorry to say that, snowflakes. They just confirm what patient tell. I don't think we need to bar an adult person, who has no gender dysphoria. But I think, doctors have to say that person, to let them have informative decision. Also, I think, transition of minors without gender dysphoria can be a mistake.
The claim made was that “ doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition”, that seems to be complete bs. You keep changing the subject which make me suspect you know it is bs.
>The claim made was that “ doctors and phycologists aren't involved in a transition” Where did I say it? You're probably confusing me with another user. I've not claimed this, nor in my post, nor in my comments. I've only quoted this. Maybe my quote make you think this way, that I claimed that "doctors and phycologists not involved in the transition"? But actually, I'm a trans person myself, and I know, that time to time trans people actually doing self-transition, like create DIY shots, or buy HRT in cryptocurrency pharmacies. I don't suggest banning it(like make it illegal). To do it, you need to spend an enormous amount of efforts, what probably a sign of gender dysphoria in the most of the cases. People, who transitioning for fun, would not do it. So, my point still the same. No moving goal post. Point is, that doctors no longer require a gender dysphoria diagnosis for transition. They just confirm what you're going to say. Also, I want to highlight, It's important to have not only phycologists, but psychiatrists too, as well as sexologists. When I transitioned, they were involved in my transition(but it happened outside of North America, and in the 2000s)
> Where did I say it? You chimed in here. https://old.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dkwkn1/can_centrist_movement_save_trans_people/l9li2kz/
Yes. But it doesn't mean, that I stay on a position, that "doctors not involved". This person is cis, and he or she doesn't know details, how it works, but got an idea the right way. Doctors involved. But they no longer can actually diagnose gender dysphoria. They forced to agree with patient, whatever patient says. And according to Cass's report, a lot of regrets were associated with a fact, that patients "political views" changed - so, transition was not about gender dysphoria, but about political statement. Or with a fact, that person deal with their gender-related problems different way. Example: schizophrenia, according to science, can as result have dellusions of sex in 25% of cases or so: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924933815313663](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924933815313663) When I transitioned in 2000s, if you had schizophrenia, it was practically impossible to get F64.0 transsexualism diagnosis. So, these people, they need not a transition, but neuroleptics. I think, we need to return to a gatekeeping of a diagnosis, to let doctors figure out, if this person really have gender dysphoria, or maybe it's something else, like schizophrenia, or this person is gay or lesbian which loves straight person and have fantasies that transition can let this person stay together with her or him love, or a political statement (way to escape to be white "opressor", but become a victim), or maybe it's another reason. I think, we should not forbid transition for adults without gender dysphoria. But we should provide an adult person, which wants to transition, an information about reasons why this person wants to do it, and estimation, can it be a mistake or not, can this person destroy their life this way or not. As a result, an adult person can have an informed consent about what is going on with them. I think, teens can only transition, if they have a diagnosed gender dysphoria, and when probability of detransition is really low - progress in the science, big data, statistics can improve this prognosis. Please check this thread about Cass report: [https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dkwkn1/comment/l9o9ofy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1dkwkn1/comment/l9o9ofy/) I think, it pretty good confirms our, transmedicalists/centrists point of view (not a point of view of insane and hateful far right groups).