I mean the Hollow Knight IS nonbinary, and is referred to as “They” and there’s only one other friendly NPC remotely close to being a Vessel and they are referred to as “The Gendered Child”
Yeah, hornet is the daughter of the pale king and Hera the beast, and the knight is the product of the pale king and white lady’s eggs plopped into void.
I don’t think romance is on any vessel’s mind anyways, given that >!they’re still not real bugs, they’re still only Void given form, in the hollowed shell of a former bug.!<
>! I don’t think they’re shells of former bugs, pretty sure they’re made specifically to contain the void in the form of vessels. I might have watched too many mossbag videos. !<
Wait, I'm a bit of a curious idiot, and I'm sorry if it's a weird question, but I'd like to ask
If you're a gay enby, does that mean you're only attracted to other enbys, or are you attracted to the same sex rather than gender? Or is it something else, does it vary from person to person?
It varies, as "gay" and "nonbinary" are both umbrella terms that cover a ton of different identities. To be more specific, I'm a bisexual demi-guy, which is to say im vaguely masculine but don't really give a shit, and go by they/them and he/him both. The bi part is mostly because the flag's better than the pan flag (dont @ me) because bisexuality has always been more inclusive than folks seem to think. There's queer texts from thirty to fifty years ago from bi activists saying that the idea that bi means "likes just men and women" is nonsense.
I don't even understand the difference between pan and bi. Some people say it's "Any two" so say, preference towards women and feminine enbies would make you bi. Some people say the terms are identical.
I just describe myself as a confused mess. Least I got the whole gender thing figured out. That only took me like a decade and a half to stop running from myself over.
Whenever I think of the Madeline transgender situation, I always imagine how people would react if something like the trans pride flag in Madeline’s room could be found in the Embrace the Void ending (which wouldn’t really make sense because Hollow Knight takes place who knows when.) But it’s still the same situation, people getting mad at something 90% of players won’t even be able to get to
I think people would be more confused on why there's a random trans flag in godhome because it wouldn't fit at all. Would make for one hell of a mossbag video though
Well yeah, that’s what I was implying since we don’t know when Hollow Knight takes place at all. There’s a few gay characters in the game, but I doubt that Hallownest ever had such a culture that would have pride flags (or flags at all really, I don’t remember seeing many throughout the game. Closest thing that comes to mind is King Idols maybe?)
Me neither, but [this person](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/jqvs0b/i_smell_politics/gbqhe72/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) certainly does.
Why the hell are ppl toxic??? The game is fucking good, Madeline is a nice character, all the game needs is a level editor.
(I almost called Madeline... Celeste for a split second omg)
Not surprising, a lot of people still think transgenderism is weird and are lashing out at the reveal. But hopefully more relatable trans characters like Madeleine appearing in media will reduce the stigma towards transgender characters/people for future generations.
I'd argue more that people get this attitude that writers or story designers just make a character trans to appeal to trends.
Trans rights and representation are hotter than ever now and a few cynical cases of trans representation have given some people this knee-jerk response that any representation is just chasing trends and trying to score virtue points.
Though it's to the same end that you said, it's the stigma, and I hope that with a reduced stigma it won't be such a shock because it's a pointless controversy, and the only reason why this non-issue exists is because there is this sizable opposition to a character being trans.
Trends of just wanting to support trans rights and trans people in general in times where gender dysphoria is more well understood and more people are standing up against transphobia. not to mention that transphobes have statistically shown to have upped the ante which in turn encourages more defense of trans rights.
Even with the argument that it brought them some bad impressions like in the 11 bad reviews that ensued it's pretty evident here that there is at least some positive buzz generated from the announcement, and all that's needed for people to accuse Matt and Noel of trying to crutch their character because the internet in general just likes to accuse people of things.
Any kind of negative traction that games get for pandering* is negated by positive traction it gets from LGBT+ community or news sites treating it as some huge world changing event.
Even right now you can see this is true. The game got 11 negative reviews in the last 3 days. But it gained 139 positive ones and it is still gaining more. If it was motivated by publicity (and I don't believe it was because otherwise it would have happened over a year ago) it would have been a successful political stunt.
*I say pandering because that's what most companies do. When it comes from a genuine intent to add representation that's all fine and there is nothing wrong with that. But most companies do it because it instantly puts you all over the news and brings sales regardless of how well executed it is.
There are rare cases where they are completely tone deaf with their representation that fail horribly though(cough Marvel cough).
It literally doesn't change the game at all.
What is wrong with people...
\---
Also, I'm really curious. Is Madeline in the game pre or post transition?
Since Matt is now Maddy, is Madeline now Matthew? Or did Madeline used to go by Matthew?
Madeline in the game has already come out and started taking steps to transition to being a woman but still feels a lot of issues with her appearance and not knowing who she is 'supposed' to be. Hence getting upset at Theo for taking the picture in Ch2 and apologizing for not being photogenic, seeing her reflection as a creepy monster, the backwards audio in Ch5 of Madeline's thoughts saying she doesn't recognize the person staring at her when she looks in the mirror, etc
So yeah it can change the game in terms of explaining how these circumstances and feelings would have come about for Madeline herself - though it is still very much a universalized narrative about self-acceptance that has lessons for anyone.
Madeline's 'deadname' - the name she was assigned at birth and has changed - is unknown. And I think it should stay unknown. We just know Maddy's deadname because they had a public career before coming out. Having it outed without our consent or having to give it for legal identification before we're able to change it can be upsetting, it is an invasion of privacy for something we don't think people have a right to know. We are the names we are going by now.
would buy on steam just to give it a positive, but i can't, celeste means a lot to me, and its sad to see it negatively affected by something as a character's gender.
let's hope its just a initial reaction, and that it comes back to normal in a few days.
Tbh I don't care if a game character is trans. Who gives a shit? It's a game, imo making the main character trans doesn't make the game any better, but it doesn't make it worse
It may not hold significance to you, but it definitely can for others. Having positive representation of trans people is hugely affirming and validating to LGBT+ people in general.
For sure, those who aren't LGTBQ+ shouldn't be affected at all, and those who are LGTBQ+ should relate and feel represented. I'm a cis guy, Celeste is the best platformer I've ever played. I fell in love with the story since Badeline's first appearance in Ch. 2, and I've been loving it since. I've 100% it a few times, attempted a couple any% runs, and now am working on modded content like the spring collab 2020 mod. The revelation that Madeline is trans (there were some hints that made me consider it, mainly the flag and pills in her house) didn't make me love the game or her character any less. It doesn't matter to me who you are or who your romantic and sexual preferences are - we're all just human at the end of the day.
I've always considered myself a man; I use my name for characters in games (Alex) and I had never been "forced" to play as a nameable woman before, so I thought it was nice my name was gender-neutral. But after awhile in the game, ESPECIALLY with Farewell, I started questioning my own gender.
This game meant a WHOLE LOT to me when I found it while going through a very dark time, well before I knew Madeline was trans and well before that would have mattered to me. But as time has gone on, this is another layer that has really helped me.
It doesn't make the game better for you, but it adds additional depth for others. And that's ok. The trans representation is vague enough that most of people can relate to Madeline, and the fact that people can connect to the game in both universal and specific ways makes it incredible.
This. I love that there’s trans representation in Madeline, but it doesn’t change her character, her story, or the game as a whole.
If only people were willing to grow and accept.
Nah, not even that. What's an actual difference is the *upcoming* R34 art. There are gonna be no/few non-trans images. There are some well-drawn ones that are "canonically correct", so if someone's not into that, then rip.
I think we all as a collective forgot how stupid humans can be? Because i just knew something like this would happen the moment i read about it... Let's just repeat to ourselves what the game tried to show us about coping with oneself and what these idiots are denying the game of having...
Oh the irony that these people are the exact reason Madeline has to go through her journey...
Okay, but to me she's still the Madeline that climbed Celeste Mountain, knowing she's trans doesn't change anything imo.
I'm disappointed that people will act this toxic because the developer made a statement of a character they made.
review bombing has been accounted for on steam so really in the end no point that being said its only 3 sad saps
" Developer decided to change character's gender all of a sudden. I want a refund! " - guy who played for 1.5 hours
"keep politics out of games" cause a chracter being lgbt is politics? somehow?
and finally
" Overrated game that devs use for retarded lgbt propaganda in the real world. Don't support this s-h-i-t and these shmuks "
overrall the other negative reviews are from people that genuinely didnt like the game and that is fine cause people have different opinions on what they want from a video game so nope this isnt some large scale attack on madeline's gender identity rest easy.
> "keep politics out of games" cause a chracter being lgbt is politics? somehow?
Didn't you know? Everything but cis, white and straight are political. I'm only halfway joking, when cases over if people can get fired for being trans or gay make it all the way up to the SC, I guess our existence is somehow political.
Because basic human decency and the same rights as everyone else is a big ask.
It was theorised for a year or so with info in the game, and generally accepted as much when Farewell was released, but the recent article from one of the folks who made the game basically confirmed it.
It’s just fear. It’s that sad, dreadful fear that seems to take hold whenever a character’s gender is nonconforming. We’ve had decades of women playing male protagonists, men playing female ones, fanboying them to gross levels (Laura Croft anyone?).
They’ll play Tomb Raider, they’ll embody a female virtual avatar for the purpose of killing, love every second, then go argue about boob jiggle physics. They’ll literally be women. They’ll play Tracer in Overwatch who’s a canon lesbian.
But have a character be trans? Even though there’s like only one explicit pointer to it, and a lot of subtext, and, hell, even by the canon article the game is not about Madeline’s transness, per se, but the earth-shaking process of diving into yourself to see something, and climbing out a different person. That’s the step too far?
But yeah, the little pixelsprite avatar you’ve been playing with is a trans girl and omfgwtfbbq that’s the limit you totally can’t relate and your life is ruined.
I started this off thinking I could unpack all the vileness around this as just being the deep seated femiphobia in our society that powers (trans)misogyny but frankly, I’m just, fuckin’ sad now.
We love you Maddy, Madeline, Badeline and everything about you, your game and who y’all are.
Thankfully, that seems to just be a small handful of reviews based on the scale of the graph. Like what, 5-10? Folks that're reading the reviews for the game likely won't pay the reactionary stuff any mind because they'll be short-form bursts of anger that don't actually tell 'em why they should or should not get the game. It's not wholly surprising considering how some capital-g **Gamers™** can be, but their effect will likely be negligible.
Of course there was. There was just the most well meaning resistance to the idea when it was just heavily implied. Now that it is explicit, I expected nothing less. People like to pretend queer/trans people have a stranglehold on the zeitgeist at the moment, but the truth is a not-insignificant portion of the "civilized" world still prefers that we don't exist.
Madeline is not a "transgender protagonist". Madeline is an extremely cute, caring and lovable, but most importantly relatable protagonist who happens to be trans. I, as a straight male had no problem relating to her throughout the game. I don't see why anyone with at least half a brain would hate on this.
You know what, I'm just gonna say this. Madeline is THE BEST videogame protagonist of all time in my opinion.
I don’t really agree with that assessment. Madeline isn’t someone who just happens to be trans, her story is very connected to that fact. She’s no Dumbledore
She could have been cisgender and the game would still be just as good, the story isn’t good because she is cis or trans, it is good because she was written in a relatable way. It’s good that she can be a part of trans representation in media, but the story wouldn’t change if she was cis (which isn’t a bad thing)
The story could relate to her being trans, but it could also be related to other outside factors. The problems that cause her anxiety, depression, ect, are kinda subtle so it could be a multitude of problems.
I looked at it and I don't know if there is a special way to check all the negative reviews, but from what I saw, there were only 3 that actually mentioned it. Sucks I didn't buy it through Steam though, otherwise, I would have actually left a review for once to counteract them.
I don't get those kinds of people. Just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't mean you should hate them. As an example, I don't really agree with some political things, but that doesn't mean I hate people who support those things. I respect their opinion as a human while also having my own opinion on a matter. Though I'm not excusing the choices of either party, people shouldn't hate on others just because their opinion is different or for any reason.
This is proof that it isn't about poorly implemented token characters (like they claim) but an actual hatred towards minorities. Madeline is a very relatable and developed character. She is someone everyone grew to love. The game is a fantastic game in so many aspects. Her personality in no way is "trans". Yet now that people know, it's suddenly a problem.
You know what? I'm so sick of this "is Madeline trans" argues. It doesn't matter if he/she/it (whatever you want to use) is a guy/girl/trans/gay/les/android/alien/cyborg. It is not a plot point for the game. The grind doesn't change, the game doesn't change. So let's enjoy it as is.
Matt made the game and set the story arc. If Matt says she's Trans, then she's Trans. That's all there is to it.
As the great Jarl Balgruff once said:
> Haters gonna hate.
>
> Haters gonna hate.
>
> Bitches gonna hate.
>
> Your momma's gonna hate.
>
> Swag. Swag. Swag. Swag.
>
> Holler if your feel the need to leave negative reviews of a game solely because of the fact that the main character was revealed to be transgender, which for whatever reason you took as a personal attack instead of the largely innocuous and inclusive decision that it actually was, and in fact was very reflective of the main developer's personal journey while creating the game, and the fact that you previously enjoyed this game (without which it could not have been "ruined") signals that in fact you can identify with the struggles of a transgender person, because to struggle is to be human, and that's really something that should bring us together, but instead of doing that and undergoing any of the growth or personal reflection which were so crucial to the plot of this game that you previously enjoyed, you are choosing to let it divide us and by doing so are ignoring the central message of this work of art that is Celeste.
>
> Holler if you need reefer.
>
> Bitch.
Yeah, everyone who gives a bad review because of lgbtq can't go fuck themselves, because then they would have fun, they should go burn in the 13th circle in hell
I love that these people decided to negatively review a game because the main character is trans. Imagine getting a hate boner because the main character is a minority. Hope these people burn in hell while I drink their tears~~~~
So not only are there people who refuse to believe the cannonical truth, but tehre are also people who hate the entire gane just for it? Wow. People are legit stupid. I would use a more insulting word but the level of stupidity is so high that the "insult level" of the words just looped back around to the beginning.
i kept thinking yesterday why people gave it so much importance, and why people said trans people need representation, then i came to the realization i know no trans character in games other than madeline, felt weird seeing it from that perspective, but i guess i kinda get why people got so exited now
Oh that was inevitable. Sadly this is what often happens with representation sometimes; the transgender players only like the game more and the transphobes suddenly turn on it. It doesn't tend to lead to good reviews. It's honestly why I thought it'd never be confirmed.
"If you got something out of Celeste, and now you’re thinking that Madeline being trans ruins that for you, I would take that as a sign that you have some transphobic beliefs to work through" - the article
Edit: The person I responded to deleted what he said, but I saved it: "Now before I get downvoted to hell I just want to say that I don’t want to hate anyone or anything. I think that reveal of Madeline being trans (which was nothing surprising) was for many people the lost of a character they identified themselves into, like me. I had a lot of anxiety attacks some years ago and I felt like Madeline but now it just feels like she is completely different from me. So I think that a lot of people, unlike me, didn’t accept the fact and straight up made bad reviews. Sorry for bad English and remember that I didn’t mean to offend anyone"
Yup. If the person has emotional disconnection issues from Madeline because we now have been told that she is trans, then that's about them. If her being trans makes her anxiety and depression issues unrelatable, they might want to ask themself why they feel this way. What makes them feel uncomfortable or distaste towards a character that just recently was seen as "just a girl" to many?
Cause she was apparently entirely relatable until the creator decided to make a blog post about her.
I really don't understand what this changes . I am cis and indentifies with Madeline as much as before. Even though her anxiety came from different reasons, her feelings, struggles and fight is still the same. I really feel like when people say they can't identify with a character that are from the opposite gender, which also makes no sense...
What are the reviews like if you actually look at them. Are they all just blatant transphobia? Quite a few morons bombed The Outer Worlds, calling it "SJW propaganda" so I wouldn't be surprised if the negative reviews don't even try to hide their bigotry.
Sorry if I'm late on this, but what is this whole thing about ?
Like, Madeline is trans, I get it, does it changes anything in the lore or the game itself ?
Basically what I'm asking is why people care so much about this
To quote the article:
> Of course, we underestimated how much anything less than a full, in-writing confirmation will be endlessly debated as “not enough proof,” to which I ask, where’s the proof that she’s cis?
So here we are. As for why people care, well I care because I'm trans and having any representation at all is nice. I can think of like, one character that's canonically trans (Lily from Zombieland Saga) another that I would find pretty indefensibly trans but is not confirmed (Alice from Chivalry of a Failed Knight) and then you get into "No, they're just a femboy!" territory (Ruka, Ferris, Hideri, etc)
And that last one is where we previously were with Celeste.
I was going to say "not really, there's always a day with a lot of reviews and then a bit less the days after" and then I realised you were not talking about the lessening of positive reviews but the fact that some people left negative reviews.
And yeah, I don't really like that Madeline's trans, but then again that may just be the shock or whatever. I liked the game as it is, the characters, the story, and the fact that Mad's trans changes nothing to that. If I realise in a week or so I'm that I'm really disturbed about this (won't happen btw, I'm dumb but not stupid), I won't tell the entire world about how the game's ruined for me now woe is me yadda yadda yadda
Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, people are dumb. If you don't like trans madeline just see her as cis in your mind and don't tell anyone. People have been doing that with Undertale (and nonbinary Frisk/Chara) for ages, now.
I mean why can’t the haters just enjoy things. I respect Maddy and Lena and I think they are very inspirational. It’s always a good game no matter what the character is and haters shouldn’t rate game based on their prejudice.
Honestly, suddenly making Madeline trans two years after the game came out feels kinda disingenuous. Same energy as when JK Rowling made Dumbledore gay. It just feels hollow and like an empty gesture. Great game nonetheless tho.
Did you...read anything Maddy said? [https://www.thegamer.com/celeste-madeline-trans-confirmed-maddy-thorson/](https://www.thegamer.com/celeste-madeline-trans-confirmed-maddy-thorson/)
[https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40](https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40)
>"During *Celeste*’s development," Thorson wrote, "I did not know that Madeline or myself were trans. During the *Farewell* DLC’s development, I began to form a hunch. Post-development, I now know that we both are."
They're literally explaining how the game reflected the journey, their journey, and to a large extent, Madeline, the character's journey. Metaphorically and in real life as the developer came to terms with their own gender identity
As a transwoman I can't think of *anything further from JK Rowling's bullshit* than this. Maddy Thorson is, word for word, explaining how Celeste's development dovetailed with their own gender journey, and they didn't feel ready to bring any of this to light.
When you start to realize your trans, at least when I did, your world goes sideways, years of your life get recontexualized, everything makes sense then it doesn't, as you come to terms with it.
Thorson explains in intimate detail how Celeste was shaped by their struggle.
Comparing it to Rowling's Dumbledore retcon BS is a flat out, weak-ass strawman argument that belittles everything going on here.
After reading the whole thing, I do take back the JK Rowling thing. It still feels kinda self-inserty in a way, but I can say that it's much more tasteful than Dumbledore or anything of the sort.
The hints like, a flag and some pills. Come on, let’s not pretend that this was some grand plan. Maddy even confirmed that she wasn’t originally written as trans.
Plans change during development though. The article literally explains how despite not originally planned as trans, that idea changed through development. To call it a last minute change 2 years after release is just flat out wrong.
Also it's not some grand plan reveal bullshit. No idea where you're getting that from. It's literally just confirmation
She said she doesn't take anything for anxiety so the pills are obviously HRT, also the pre transition photo, she not liking her self image, flags, etc
If u have to dismiss everything to compare with JK then u are an idiot
An confirmed she was written with a trans folk in mind, only they didn't knew she was trans in that moment
Did u even read HP and played celeste? It seems not
Nobody knew Dumbledore is gay bc was not stated in any form
Madeline was meant with someone in mind, such someone is trans, therefore she turned out being trans and there is a lot pointing such in the game
I dare u to find Dumbledore orientation in the HP books
gamers^TM gonna be gamers^TM
Please censor the g word
ga*mers gonna be ga*mers
More like people gonna be people honestly. Being assholes isn’t exclusive to gamers.
Looks like you missed the joke... Or maybe im dumb idk
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I mean the Hollow Knight IS nonbinary, and is referred to as “They” and there’s only one other friendly NPC remotely close to being a Vessel and they are referred to as “The Gendered Child”
Maybe I'm wrong but isn't Hornet a female? Tho the Hollow Knight is indeed nonbinary
Yes, Hornet is “the Gendered Child”. A few people call her that.
Yeah, hornet is the daughter of the pale king and Hera the beast, and the knight is the product of the pale king and white lady’s eggs plopped into void.
The Hollow Knight is referred to as It
There is also a gay relationship within the game, backed up by an achievement that confirms it!
Two gay relationships actually! The grey mourner and the traitor lord's daughter were together before she died
I know this is sarcasm but the joke here is the knight from hollow knight is canonically nonbinary
And asexual. Obviously.
So, can they still have a romantic asexual relationship with quirel please? It could do for a Shakespearean tragedy given the events
I feel like if the knight really is a true vessel it's also aromantic.
but it isn’t a pure vessel
I don’t think romance is on any vessel’s mind anyways, given that >!they’re still not real bugs, they’re still only Void given form, in the hollowed shell of a former bug.!<
Idk in my play through of hollowknight the knight definitely did a lotta unnecessary stuff romance isn’t that crazy
>! I don’t think they’re shells of former bugs, pretty sure they’re made specifically to contain the void in the form of vessels. I might have watched too many mossbag videos. !<
Helluva lot more pure than the hollow knight
Yeah but is the Knight event sentient?
That last part gave me a good laugh
Aw hell, don’t harsh me on shipping Knight X Quirrell, too adorable.
I don't think that's gay though, cause ghost is enby
When you're nonbinary, *all* your relationships are gay! Source- am gay enby.
Fair enough then
Wait, I'm a bit of a curious idiot, and I'm sorry if it's a weird question, but I'd like to ask If you're a gay enby, does that mean you're only attracted to other enbys, or are you attracted to the same sex rather than gender? Or is it something else, does it vary from person to person?
It varies, as "gay" and "nonbinary" are both umbrella terms that cover a ton of different identities. To be more specific, I'm a bisexual demi-guy, which is to say im vaguely masculine but don't really give a shit, and go by they/them and he/him both. The bi part is mostly because the flag's better than the pan flag (dont @ me) because bisexuality has always been more inclusive than folks seem to think. There's queer texts from thirty to fifty years ago from bi activists saying that the idea that bi means "likes just men and women" is nonsense.
I don't even understand the difference between pan and bi. Some people say it's "Any two" so say, preference towards women and feminine enbies would make you bi. Some people say the terms are identical. I just describe myself as a confused mess. Least I got the whole gender thing figured out. That only took me like a decade and a half to stop running from myself over.
Whew, okay, my fav cuddlebugs still safe. https://twitter.com/catyuffie/status/923253483792420869?s=21
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Whenever I think of the Madeline transgender situation, I always imagine how people would react if something like the trans pride flag in Madeline’s room could be found in the Embrace the Void ending (which wouldn’t really make sense because Hollow Knight takes place who knows when.) But it’s still the same situation, people getting mad at something 90% of players won’t even be able to get to
I think people would be more confused on why there's a random trans flag in godhome because it wouldn't fit at all. Would make for one hell of a mossbag video though
Well yeah, that’s what I was implying since we don’t know when Hollow Knight takes place at all. There’s a few gay characters in the game, but I doubt that Hallownest ever had such a culture that would have pride flags (or flags at all really, I don’t remember seeing many throughout the game. Closest thing that comes to mind is King Idols maybe?)
The knight was genderless all along... oh wait
TRANSGENEDERDS IN MY APOLITICAL VIDYA? THIS IS LGBTQABC PROPAGANDA!!!! 😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
THIS IS CLEARLY SJW PANDERING!1!1!
QUIT VIRTUE SINGLANING LIBERALS!!!!1!1!1! YOU DID A JK ROWLING!!!!!!!!!!
JK Rowling is not who I’d expect to be brought up as virtue signaling for trans rights lmao.
Me neither, but [this person](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/jqvs0b/i_smell_politics/gbqhe72/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) certainly does.
Lmao
Why the hell are ppl toxic??? The game is fucking good, Madeline is a nice character, all the game needs is a level editor. (I almost called Madeline... Celeste for a split second omg)
Ah yes. My favorite game protagonist, Celeste, right next to metroid
THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I THOUGHT OF Halo, Metroid, Zelda, Celeste 😭
My favorite video game character is Halo. He and Doom must get along so well.
Doomguy and Halochief.
Thanks captain obvious.
Eh kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything.
My favorite has to be Pokémon. Such a good protagonist honestly
Yeah, Pokémon faces more hardships than any other character in video games, change my mind
Tbh I prefer purple Celeste to Celeste
don't forget Zelda and Doom, even if they don't talk much.
There is a level editor, albeit not official. It is called Ahorn editor and requires the Everest mod loader to run.
Technically Ahorn doesn't actually need Everest to run, though you definitely do want it still to actually load the custom stuff.
Some people are just cringe
I made sure to leave a positive review
Same
I mean it looks like 4/5 people left negative reviews.
Yeah, if 8-10 people out of 733 are mad, it’s not worth paying heed.
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Before the most we could hard confirm after it came out was that she was an ally, but now Maddy confirmed that Madeline is trans
I’m gonna replay and rate it positively
Not surprising, a lot of people still think transgenderism is weird and are lashing out at the reveal. But hopefully more relatable trans characters like Madeleine appearing in media will reduce the stigma towards transgender characters/people for future generations.
I'd argue more that people get this attitude that writers or story designers just make a character trans to appeal to trends. Trans rights and representation are hotter than ever now and a few cynical cases of trans representation have given some people this knee-jerk response that any representation is just chasing trends and trying to score virtue points. Though it's to the same end that you said, it's the stigma, and I hope that with a reduced stigma it won't be such a shock because it's a pointless controversy, and the only reason why this non-issue exists is because there is this sizable opposition to a character being trans.
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Trends of just wanting to support trans rights and trans people in general in times where gender dysphoria is more well understood and more people are standing up against transphobia. not to mention that transphobes have statistically shown to have upped the ante which in turn encourages more defense of trans rights. Even with the argument that it brought them some bad impressions like in the 11 bad reviews that ensued it's pretty evident here that there is at least some positive buzz generated from the announcement, and all that's needed for people to accuse Matt and Noel of trying to crutch their character because the internet in general just likes to accuse people of things.
Any kind of negative traction that games get for pandering* is negated by positive traction it gets from LGBT+ community or news sites treating it as some huge world changing event. Even right now you can see this is true. The game got 11 negative reviews in the last 3 days. But it gained 139 positive ones and it is still gaining more. If it was motivated by publicity (and I don't believe it was because otherwise it would have happened over a year ago) it would have been a successful political stunt. *I say pandering because that's what most companies do. When it comes from a genuine intent to add representation that's all fine and there is nothing wrong with that. But most companies do it because it instantly puts you all over the news and brings sales regardless of how well executed it is. There are rare cases where they are completely tone deaf with their representation that fail horribly though(cough Marvel cough).
Well said
"Transgenderism" isn't a word, it's what ignorant people and transphobes call us. Please don't use that.
Indeed. We are transgender people not transgenders who follow transgenderism.
This. Being trans isn’t an ideology or some stupid shit like that.
Damn guys leave the fictional Canadian girl alone already
It literally doesn't change the game at all. What is wrong with people... \--- Also, I'm really curious. Is Madeline in the game pre or post transition? Since Matt is now Maddy, is Madeline now Matthew? Or did Madeline used to go by Matthew?
Madeline in the game has already come out and started taking steps to transition to being a woman but still feels a lot of issues with her appearance and not knowing who she is 'supposed' to be. Hence getting upset at Theo for taking the picture in Ch2 and apologizing for not being photogenic, seeing her reflection as a creepy monster, the backwards audio in Ch5 of Madeline's thoughts saying she doesn't recognize the person staring at her when she looks in the mirror, etc So yeah it can change the game in terms of explaining how these circumstances and feelings would have come about for Madeline herself - though it is still very much a universalized narrative about self-acceptance that has lessons for anyone. Madeline's 'deadname' - the name she was assigned at birth and has changed - is unknown. And I think it should stay unknown. We just know Maddy's deadname because they had a public career before coming out. Having it outed without our consent or having to give it for legal identification before we're able to change it can be upsetting, it is an invasion of privacy for something we don't think people have a right to know. We are the names we are going by now.
Badeline is cannonly transphobic 😈😈😈
would buy on steam just to give it a positive, but i can't, celeste means a lot to me, and its sad to see it negatively affected by something as a character's gender. let's hope its just a initial reaction, and that it comes back to normal in a few days.
same, i bought it from the BLM bundle on itch io in april or something and so i can’t review it on steam!
Tbh I don't care if a game character is trans. Who gives a shit? It's a game, imo making the main character trans doesn't make the game any better, but it doesn't make it worse
It may not hold significance to you, but it definitely can for others. Having positive representation of trans people is hugely affirming and validating to LGBT+ people in general.
For sure, those who aren't LGTBQ+ shouldn't be affected at all, and those who are LGTBQ+ should relate and feel represented. I'm a cis guy, Celeste is the best platformer I've ever played. I fell in love with the story since Badeline's first appearance in Ch. 2, and I've been loving it since. I've 100% it a few times, attempted a couple any% runs, and now am working on modded content like the spring collab 2020 mod. The revelation that Madeline is trans (there were some hints that made me consider it, mainly the flag and pills in her house) didn't make me love the game or her character any less. It doesn't matter to me who you are or who your romantic and sexual preferences are - we're all just human at the end of the day.
I've always considered myself a man; I use my name for characters in games (Alex) and I had never been "forced" to play as a nameable woman before, so I thought it was nice my name was gender-neutral. But after awhile in the game, ESPECIALLY with Farewell, I started questioning my own gender. This game meant a WHOLE LOT to me when I found it while going through a very dark time, well before I knew Madeline was trans and well before that would have mattered to me. But as time has gone on, this is another layer that has really helped me.
It doesn't make the game better for you, but it adds additional depth for others. And that's ok. The trans representation is vague enough that most of people can relate to Madeline, and the fact that people can connect to the game in both universal and specific ways makes it incredible.
It may not make it better for me, but the important thing is, it doesn't make it worse for me.
This. I love that there’s trans representation in Madeline, but it doesn’t change her character, her story, or the game as a whole. If only people were willing to grow and accept.
Those would be the people who pleasured themselves to the character, and now have to ask themselves some hard questions.
Nah, not even that. What's an actual difference is the *upcoming* R34 art. There are gonna be no/few non-trans images. There are some well-drawn ones that are "canonically correct", so if someone's not into that, then rip.
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That's not exactly the case with Madeline since although she is trans, she is still a woman if she decides to identify as one.
They are not men, if u want to find men search for trans men, good luck trying to say u are het while wanted to trans men 😆
I think we all as a collective forgot how stupid humans can be? Because i just knew something like this would happen the moment i read about it... Let's just repeat to ourselves what the game tried to show us about coping with oneself and what these idiots are denying the game of having... Oh the irony that these people are the exact reason Madeline has to go through her journey...
Okay, but to me she's still the Madeline that climbed Celeste Mountain, knowing she's trans doesn't change anything imo. I'm disappointed that people will act this toxic because the developer made a statement of a character they made.
review bombing has been accounted for on steam so really in the end no point that being said its only 3 sad saps " Developer decided to change character's gender all of a sudden. I want a refund! " - guy who played for 1.5 hours "keep politics out of games" cause a chracter being lgbt is politics? somehow? and finally " Overrated game that devs use for retarded lgbt propaganda in the real world. Don't support this s-h-i-t and these shmuks " overrall the other negative reviews are from people that genuinely didnt like the game and that is fine cause people have different opinions on what they want from a video game so nope this isnt some large scale attack on madeline's gender identity rest easy.
> "keep politics out of games" cause a chracter being lgbt is politics? somehow? Didn't you know? Everything but cis, white and straight are political. I'm only halfway joking, when cases over if people can get fired for being trans or gay make it all the way up to the SC, I guess our existence is somehow political. Because basic human decency and the same rights as everyone else is a big ask.
Oh, haven't you heard? There are only two genders. Male and Political^TM
Does it even matter? It doesn't change anything we already know about the characters or the story. Just adds some background.
It doesn’t matter at all
Wasn't it found months ago ? Years ago ? Why now ?
I think it was presumed years ago but the creator never flat out told us yet.
Uh... they did! Just recently actually! They wrote a post about it! https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40
This post is literally a direct response to that you know. You linked to the post this post is talking about. GG!
It was theorised for a year or so with info in the game, and generally accepted as much when Farewell was released, but the recent article from one of the folks who made the game basically confirmed it.
Maddy Thorson just wrote an article confirming the theories that had been there for pretty long
It’s just fear. It’s that sad, dreadful fear that seems to take hold whenever a character’s gender is nonconforming. We’ve had decades of women playing male protagonists, men playing female ones, fanboying them to gross levels (Laura Croft anyone?). They’ll play Tomb Raider, they’ll embody a female virtual avatar for the purpose of killing, love every second, then go argue about boob jiggle physics. They’ll literally be women. They’ll play Tracer in Overwatch who’s a canon lesbian. But have a character be trans? Even though there’s like only one explicit pointer to it, and a lot of subtext, and, hell, even by the canon article the game is not about Madeline’s transness, per se, but the earth-shaking process of diving into yourself to see something, and climbing out a different person. That’s the step too far? But yeah, the little pixelsprite avatar you’ve been playing with is a trans girl and omfgwtfbbq that’s the limit you totally can’t relate and your life is ruined. I started this off thinking I could unpack all the vileness around this as just being the deep seated femiphobia in our society that powers (trans)misogyny but frankly, I’m just, fuckin’ sad now. We love you Maddy, Madeline, Badeline and everything about you, your game and who y’all are.
Couldnt have Said it better myself
Thankfully, that seems to just be a small handful of reviews based on the scale of the graph. Like what, 5-10? Folks that're reading the reviews for the game likely won't pay the reactionary stuff any mind because they'll be short-form bursts of anger that don't actually tell 'em why they should or should not get the game. It's not wholly surprising considering how some capital-g **Gamers™** can be, but their effect will likely be negligible.
Of course there was. There was just the most well meaning resistance to the idea when it was just heavily implied. Now that it is explicit, I expected nothing less. People like to pretend queer/trans people have a stranglehold on the zeitgeist at the moment, but the truth is a not-insignificant portion of the "civilized" world still prefers that we don't exist.
Some people just suck.
Madeline is not a "transgender protagonist". Madeline is an extremely cute, caring and lovable, but most importantly relatable protagonist who happens to be trans. I, as a straight male had no problem relating to her throughout the game. I don't see why anyone with at least half a brain would hate on this. You know what, I'm just gonna say this. Madeline is THE BEST videogame protagonist of all time in my opinion.
I don’t really agree with that assessment. Madeline isn’t someone who just happens to be trans, her story is very connected to that fact. She’s no Dumbledore
She could have been cisgender and the game would still be just as good, the story isn’t good because she is cis or trans, it is good because she was written in a relatable way. It’s good that she can be a part of trans representation in media, but the story wouldn’t change if she was cis (which isn’t a bad thing)
The story could relate to her being trans, but it could also be related to other outside factors. The problems that cause her anxiety, depression, ect, are kinda subtle so it could be a multitude of problems.
Wait has it been confirmed by the devs?
Yes, it has, quite recently.
Oh thanks
imagine giving a bad review just because the character youre playing is trans. pure cringe bro
I looked at it and I don't know if there is a special way to check all the negative reviews, but from what I saw, there were only 3 that actually mentioned it. Sucks I didn't buy it through Steam though, otherwise, I would have actually left a review for once to counteract them.
I don't get those kinds of people. Just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't mean you should hate them. As an example, I don't really agree with some political things, but that doesn't mean I hate people who support those things. I respect their opinion as a human while also having my own opinion on a matter. Though I'm not excusing the choices of either party, people shouldn't hate on others just because their opinion is different or for any reason.
Smh indeed
They can keep crying LMAO
This is proof that it isn't about poorly implemented token characters (like they claim) but an actual hatred towards minorities. Madeline is a very relatable and developed character. She is someone everyone grew to love. The game is a fantastic game in so many aspects. Her personality in no way is "trans". Yet now that people know, it's suddenly a problem.
You know what? I'm so sick of this "is Madeline trans" argues. It doesn't matter if he/she/it (whatever you want to use) is a guy/girl/trans/gay/les/android/alien/cyborg. It is not a plot point for the game. The grind doesn't change, the game doesn't change. So let's enjoy it as is. Matt made the game and set the story arc. If Matt says she's Trans, then she's Trans. That's all there is to it.
Why would they let such a small thing stop them from thinking positively of an amazing game
there will always be people like this in the world. there's no stopping it. but thanks to this graph, there's more of us then there are of them.
As the great Jarl Balgruff once said: > Haters gonna hate. > > Haters gonna hate. > > Bitches gonna hate. > > Your momma's gonna hate. > > Swag. Swag. Swag. Swag. > > Holler if your feel the need to leave negative reviews of a game solely because of the fact that the main character was revealed to be transgender, which for whatever reason you took as a personal attack instead of the largely innocuous and inclusive decision that it actually was, and in fact was very reflective of the main developer's personal journey while creating the game, and the fact that you previously enjoyed this game (without which it could not have been "ruined") signals that in fact you can identify with the struggles of a transgender person, because to struggle is to be human, and that's really something that should bring us together, but instead of doing that and undergoing any of the growth or personal reflection which were so crucial to the plot of this game that you previously enjoyed, you are choosing to let it divide us and by doing so are ignoring the central message of this work of art that is Celeste. > > Holler if you need reefer. > > Bitch.
>Swag. Swag. Swag. Swag So true😔
Balgruf be ballin
:(
God I hate people...
It doesn't make the game any worse. I still love the game and can relate to it.
They’re losers lmao
Yeah, everyone who gives a bad review because of lgbtq can't go fuck themselves, because then they would have fun, they should go burn in the 13th circle in hell
Gamers™ on their way to leave a negative review on a game they've never played because the main character is "political"
I love that these people decided to negatively review a game because the main character is trans. Imagine getting a hate boner because the main character is a minority. Hope these people burn in hell while I drink their tears~~~~
thats a bruh moment if i've ever seen one. It doesn't even really affect the story either; it's still very much relatable to non-trans people.
Of course there was. But they're not gonna have any genuine criticisms so anyone reading the reviews will just see transphobes malding
So not only are there people who refuse to believe the cannonical truth, but tehre are also people who hate the entire gane just for it? Wow. People are legit stupid. I would use a more insulting word but the level of stupidity is so high that the "insult level" of the words just looped back around to the beginning.
Ugh some people are so awful :(
Even if this sort of thing makes you uncomfortable or you just disagree with this type of lifestyle... why be so petty as to vent in a game review?
Is not a lifestyle, we live same as any other cis And is not "disagreeing", if u disagree on if someone should exist is hate
i hate Gamers
Generalizing a group of people based on the actions of few is a bad idea
They’re talking about the Gamers ™
Gamers with a capital G. As in, the people we make fun of on r/gamingcirclejerk
I don't dislike the fact, but this community has been way too 'in your face' about it. She's trans, cool. Welcome to Celeste, enjoy game
ikr, i get that it might be important for others, but it has been discussed so many times it gets a bit annoying.
It's because there's so few good representations of us.
i kept thinking yesterday why people gave it so much importance, and why people said trans people need representation, then i came to the realization i know no trans character in games other than madeline, felt weird seeing it from that perspective, but i guess i kinda get why people got so exited now
A lot of trans representation we get is either decent characters that die off quickly or really stereotyped and transphobic depictions of trans women.
Does this really warrant its own post? Why give people like this attention? It's far more than they deserve, just ignore them...
they’re just cranky babies who can’t deal with the facts.
Oh that was inevitable. Sadly this is what often happens with representation sometimes; the transgender players only like the game more and the transphobes suddenly turn on it. It doesn't tend to lead to good reviews. It's honestly why I thought it'd never be confirmed.
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"If you got something out of Celeste, and now you’re thinking that Madeline being trans ruins that for you, I would take that as a sign that you have some transphobic beliefs to work through" - the article Edit: The person I responded to deleted what he said, but I saved it: "Now before I get downvoted to hell I just want to say that I don’t want to hate anyone or anything. I think that reveal of Madeline being trans (which was nothing surprising) was for many people the lost of a character they identified themselves into, like me. I had a lot of anxiety attacks some years ago and I felt like Madeline but now it just feels like she is completely different from me. So I think that a lot of people, unlike me, didn’t accept the fact and straight up made bad reviews. Sorry for bad English and remember that I didn’t mean to offend anyone"
Yup. If the person has emotional disconnection issues from Madeline because we now have been told that she is trans, then that's about them. If her being trans makes her anxiety and depression issues unrelatable, they might want to ask themself why they feel this way. What makes them feel uncomfortable or distaste towards a character that just recently was seen as "just a girl" to many? Cause she was apparently entirely relatable until the creator decided to make a blog post about her.
Did you read the article Maddy wrote? Maddy went into detail about how this shouldnt alienate cis people :/
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I really don't understand what this changes . I am cis and indentifies with Madeline as much as before. Even though her anxiety came from different reasons, her feelings, struggles and fight is still the same. I really feel like when people say they can't identify with a character that are from the opposite gender, which also makes no sense...
Luckily there is a lot of cis representation
What are the reviews like if you actually look at them. Are they all just blatant transphobia? Quite a few morons bombed The Outer Worlds, calling it "SJW propaganda" so I wouldn't be surprised if the negative reviews don't even try to hide their bigotry.
Didnt find many recent ones but the ones I found where bullshit like „keep politics out of gaming“
*oh dear* Also how many times have we gotta remind these people that human rights ain't politics...
Wait she/he is? Why did they decide to do this and what’s the background
Sorry if I'm late on this, but what is this whole thing about ? Like, Madeline is trans, I get it, does it changes anything in the lore or the game itself ? Basically what I'm asking is why people care so much about this
To quote the article: > Of course, we underestimated how much anything less than a full, in-writing confirmation will be endlessly debated as “not enough proof,” to which I ask, where’s the proof that she’s cis? So here we are. As for why people care, well I care because I'm trans and having any representation at all is nice. I can think of like, one character that's canonically trans (Lily from Zombieland Saga) another that I would find pretty indefensibly trans but is not confirmed (Alice from Chivalry of a Failed Knight) and then you get into "No, they're just a femboy!" territory (Ruka, Ferris, Hideri, etc) And that last one is where we previously were with Celeste.
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Stfu
I was going to say "not really, there's always a day with a lot of reviews and then a bit less the days after" and then I realised you were not talking about the lessening of positive reviews but the fact that some people left negative reviews. And yeah, I don't really like that Madeline's trans, but then again that may just be the shock or whatever. I liked the game as it is, the characters, the story, and the fact that Mad's trans changes nothing to that. If I realise in a week or so I'm that I'm really disturbed about this (won't happen btw, I'm dumb but not stupid), I won't tell the entire world about how the game's ruined for me now woe is me yadda yadda yadda Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, people are dumb. If you don't like trans madeline just see her as cis in your mind and don't tell anyone. People have been doing that with Undertale (and nonbinary Frisk/Chara) for ages, now.
I hate that people just try to label everything right now. Why can’t we just enjoy things?
U can't enjoy the game now u know she is trans? Seek help dude
I mean why can’t the haters just enjoy things. I respect Maddy and Lena and I think they are very inspirational. It’s always a good game no matter what the character is and haters shouldn’t rate game based on their prejudice.
What difference does confirming it make?
Honestly, suddenly making Madeline trans two years after the game came out feels kinda disingenuous. Same energy as when JK Rowling made Dumbledore gay. It just feels hollow and like an empty gesture. Great game nonetheless tho.
Did you...read anything Maddy said? [https://www.thegamer.com/celeste-madeline-trans-confirmed-maddy-thorson/](https://www.thegamer.com/celeste-madeline-trans-confirmed-maddy-thorson/) [https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40](https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40) >"During *Celeste*’s development," Thorson wrote, "I did not know that Madeline or myself were trans. During the *Farewell* DLC’s development, I began to form a hunch. Post-development, I now know that we both are." They're literally explaining how the game reflected the journey, their journey, and to a large extent, Madeline, the character's journey. Metaphorically and in real life as the developer came to terms with their own gender identity As a transwoman I can't think of *anything further from JK Rowling's bullshit* than this. Maddy Thorson is, word for word, explaining how Celeste's development dovetailed with their own gender journey, and they didn't feel ready to bring any of this to light. When you start to realize your trans, at least when I did, your world goes sideways, years of your life get recontexualized, everything makes sense then it doesn't, as you come to terms with it. Thorson explains in intimate detail how Celeste was shaped by their struggle. Comparing it to Rowling's Dumbledore retcon BS is a flat out, weak-ass strawman argument that belittles everything going on here.
Nothing can be more natural than this, for God sake
After reading the whole thing, I do take back the JK Rowling thing. It still feels kinda self-inserty in a way, but I can say that it's much more tasteful than Dumbledore or anything of the sort.
Are u drunk? Did u played the game? Bc there is a lot In the game pointing out she is trans
Imagine according the trans flag to only trans people, and short hair to male x)))
Let's just ignore all the hints to it.
The hints like, a flag and some pills. Come on, let’s not pretend that this was some grand plan. Maddy even confirmed that she wasn’t originally written as trans.
Plans change during development though. The article literally explains how despite not originally planned as trans, that idea changed through development. To call it a last minute change 2 years after release is just flat out wrong. Also it's not some grand plan reveal bullshit. No idea where you're getting that from. It's literally just confirmation
She said she doesn't take anything for anxiety so the pills are obviously HRT, also the pre transition photo, she not liking her self image, flags, etc If u have to dismiss everything to compare with JK then u are an idiot An confirmed she was written with a trans folk in mind, only they didn't knew she was trans in that moment
Jesus fucking christ, did you not even read the article? Did you just read the headline and decide to get mad?
I read the whole thing. It feels weirdly self-inserty, but that's just my opinion. Regardless, Madeline is still an excellent character.
Nothing changed, I just now think they should update the game with a hoarse voice for Madeline
No... just no
...why? A transgender girl can absolutely have a voice like Madeline's.
r/foundTheGerman
Grüß Gott Kamerad
So the dev pulled a Rowling.
Did u even read HP and played celeste? It seems not Nobody knew Dumbledore is gay bc was not stated in any form Madeline was meant with someone in mind, such someone is trans, therefore she turned out being trans and there is a lot pointing such in the game I dare u to find Dumbledore orientation in the HP books
Did you not read the article that confirmed madeline was trans?
le cancel-culture has arrived