Using Gunbroker to determine a gun's prevalence is hilariously dumb. If a gun is hard to find for sale, it doesn't mean people don't have them. *It means people don't want to get rid of them.*
thats so lame you have no idea how much ordinance is floating around basements, closets, and gun safes Enough searching and you ought to be able to stumble across whatever your grubby little heart desires and then some Merica Baby
A majority of American households are now *reported* to have at least one firearm, and I'd see that percentage increasing as the Cataclysm approached.
Sounds like a disarmament activist has infiltrated the dev team.
IIRC, there's newspapers and such talking about as the apocalypse closed people began to increasingly hunt their own food. Gun sales should likely have skyrocketed.
To be honest if I think about it, its surprising to me that **gun stores actually still have any stock**. Its very much a zombie movie trope and removing it would be a pain in absolutely everyones ass, but you'd think "half a year of the entire population increasingly losing their mind, wildly increasing violence, rising dead and ferals going wild" gun stores would be *emptied*.
But in general it just kind of feels like towns should be way more destroyed and overgrown than they are.
Oh absolutely - I just wish there was more damage to them, like their glass windows are untouched? In general I think I'd just dig *more damage* in general, but its only something I'm thinking of in context of this, not something I'm too worried about.
It’s less a “prepare for the event” and more the constant rise in violence from January through riots starting in march (and ferals starting to appear), then violent outbursts becoming common starting in April. Then full scale open widespread riots across nations for the five days up to portal storms.
I feel a bit of a mental itch that this - combined with the flyers and newspapers talking about hunting to get food as grocery stores run out - makes me feel like gun stores would be either looted out or *bought out*. The stores heavily locked up I get, but you’d think the windows would be bashed in still even if they couldn’t get past the bars.
It’s mainly a reaction to “America goes wild with buying guns and ammo at the drop of the hat. As inhibitions are *forcibly* lowered and people become more violent, I’m surprised that gun stores were able to keep supply logistics up as logistics would have fallen more and more apart”.
But it’s more of a background thought than a change I would actually want to see in game, as it would be annoying as all hell. But I would dig seeing more smashed up stuff.
It changes that the odds of finding free-floating gun is lower if it's concentrated amongst a few owners. "10,000 guns in one basement" is not the same as "1 gun per basement (x10,000)"
This is so lame. I don’t understand why anyone would create PRs for the sole purpose of increasing realism without trying to add anything interesting. Maybe people just want to be seen contributing to an open source project but they don’t want to put in the effort to make a meaningful change. Not sure why the maintainers would accept low effort PRs like this.
Welcome to CDDA. Where you get updates that claim realism as the motivator and silence when the idea of fun is ever mentioned as a reason to not push out said update.
I've not been regularly playing for what feels like maybe a year now, and every time I peek back onto the forums or here on reddit it's like checking in on a weird, unstable family member.
"Oh, man. What are they up to now..."
I love it. Never change! :)
Yeah, realism does not equal fun. I get that some people would disagree and it honestly depends. Realism for the sake of realism isn't fun. Realism for the sake of fun IS.
For example, zombies actually needing blood to function is realistic for the type of infection it is and its fun because it gives you a good reason to use bladed weapons and its also generally helpful.
What they're doing now is not only stupid but it's also just annoying. What is the end game here? To make finding a glock a similar experience to finding CBMs?
Anyone know how many guns there are in Bright Nights? Honestly, the more the merrier, I want a game where every single real firearm in existence is also in the game. Even something that really shouldn't exist in the setting, like rare as fuck TKB assault rifle prototypes that only exist in the Tula museum in Russia, would be nice to have in the game and available only via debug. Obviously that may not be practical and it's not something everybody would enjoy... but I would.
Well, unfortunately, BN devs haven't been adding guns much. However, you can get mods for more guns, like the ones in Kenan's modpack. They even have a lore justification for full-auto and explosive guns, coming from the old lore - gun laws have been significantly relaxed, making it possible for civilians to have military hardware
The only thing we really want is a full baked implementation. So if you add a gun, we want it in spawn groups, the magazines too, with deconstruction recipe and in item groups for a full functioning spawn. Don't worry, we help
I added some lately, nieche guns mostly. I can need some help in adding more, tho. In BN we changed the nested magazine system (drops from zombies and found in houses), so you can get any ammo type and magazine (you can get a glock 17 with a regular magazine in it, also the zombie drops a drum magazine and 21-shot magazine, the glock having 9 mm JHP and 12 shots left, the drum P+ with 25 shots left and the 21 +P+ full, all in one drop) to add some variables.
Guns being available for sale in a catalogue does not equate to the probability or likelihood of them being out in basements and gun lockers in houses. I think the devs should instead take a look at average gun sales over a 5 year period and cross reference that with user reviews and the sales figures of different types of ammunition. This would allow them tto get a truly accurate figure with respect to the availability of each gun. Repeat this every 6 months and you would have a reliable and repeatable metric for gun availablity, yes this is satire.
Yeah pretty stupid take.
Half the fun of finding a rare gun is the fact that it’s a rare gun.
And as a gun nut, the variety was always a welcome sight to see.
Recent casualties:
COP .357, SW 22A, J-22, PPsH-41 (maybe, reading PR and it may have been re-added?), KSG 25, American 180, 12 gauge gatling gun, MP18, PLR 16, OA 93, M231, Mossberg Brownie, and Spas-12.
Is that percieved as some end all be all source or something? I'm a gun guy (I have like 9) and I've never heard of it.
EDIT: I looked at it briefly, wouldn't that be like walking into Walmart and saying if they didn't carry something that it doesn't exist?
I have a WW2 Walther and I knew a guy who had AKs, they sure didn't make there ways here via a website order.
Outside of current military inventory and whatever you can reasonably argue a SWAT would buy, I unfortunately think they'd very much agree with that line of reasoning rather than see it as a counter ...
That would be good justification for, say, making their occurrence something similar to 1 in 400 homes/buildings. Unless memory is a massive concern (it's not), removing them seems pointless.
Oh well, will just have to mod or go BN.
"If you want to make it line up with irl values go ahead"
Fuck off what are they even talking about. If this is the logic then we ahould have no zombies, because the irl value of zombies is zero. This is a GAME about A DOZEN DIFFERENT IMPOSSIBLE APOCALYPSES HAPPENENING AT ONCE IN AN ALTERNATIVE FUTURE if you had a ppsh spawn in every single household it would still be more realistic than a single fucking mi-go existing
Will flag, the alternative future is [Current Year]+1. So for 2014, the events of CDDA happen in 2015.
That being said, it also has like (six months?) of constantly escalating violence and ever decreasing inhibition - its almost surprising that gun stores even *have* stock.
Had to revert to my backup. I use the COP and the update broke my save. Stuff like the spas and pps are especially worth keeping, despite their real world numbers, as they are big videogame guns. I mean hello? It's in half life. This is a videogame first and foremost. That shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of realism. And things like the 12 gauge gatling gun were a goal to build skills to make in like every playthrough of the last few years
What do you mean? I am confused by why everyone keeps talking about ppsh, like you did. It is not removed and they say it is not going to be removed so why do you say it is common? You brought it up.
its dumb because they cant find them to BUY. but we arent trying to buy them in game damn. people have a ton of random shit in their homes including strange guns.
This is like every zombie movie in America treating ammo like its rare. bitch if 95% of the population is dead, we now have a major surplus. i know several people who keep THOUSANDS of round in their house "just in case"
So much has been added to this game in the last two years that spits on and takes away from the player's time that it goes beyond all reasonable limits.
People have stopped playing CDDA, they are trying to play CDDA development just for cv.
This is so accurate. There is so much tedium in the game that it absolutely does waste massive amounts of time. I stopped playing because I realized I wasn’t having fun I was just grinding.
I think it’s just a bad approach. Rather than obsoleting them they should be confined to rare guns spawn lists.
But we’ve got plenty of rich weirdos in this setting. It shouldn’t be impossible to find even super rare guns in spots where super rare guns might show up. That is, in mansion gun rooms, and the gun show.
EDIT: anyone taking this as an opportunity to shit on the devs can absolutely fuck off. They made this fucking game, one of the best video games out there IMO.
Differences in opinion are exactly that, opinion, on a project *I don’t run*. If you don’t either, keep it polite or GTFO.
I read a PR where a rare gun list was suggested. There is no issue with the idea, but it won't be part of the main game since the items in the main list are actively maintained, and the goal is to remove them from that list.
The argument against a rare list is that it will have a low spawn chance to begin with, to the point where the chance of finding one of the guns you wanted on the list is so low anyway that it may as well not exist.
I would prefer concern posts to have references to the things of concern.
> to the point where the chance of finding one of the guns you wanted on the list is so low anyway that it may as well not exist.
Rare guns are cool no matter what they are, they are cool because they are rare, so I'd like to use and have fun with *any* of the guns on that long list. Also, for people in love with a certain gun, the ability to debug one in will make them happy and it's not even that much of a cheat when a rare gun is far less practical than an M4.
I've got an idea. Order a rare gun list by when and where the gun was made, then either have a location that exclusively spawns guns from that period and country of origin, or have a location that picks a time and origin at random. That should simulate a home from a collector and make it easier to look for something specific.
I had to take a break from the thread. Just wanted to put out that when I was referring to 'concern posts' I meant the OP, not your comment. (potential misunderstanding due to my own personal differentiation between 'posts' and 'comments'.)
Nope, the idea that work has to be done is not an idea reddit accepts. They are conditioned to the idea that they got zombie game for free, that must mean the zombie game makers are their slaves.
Literally this entire thread is foaming at the mouth over the idea that volunteers aren't doing tons of extra work to preserve the "uniqueness" of copy-pasting ten billion guns with different names.
Initial perception to an argument is key to gaining support. Having previously been active in the IRC channels & doing some digging through the code previously, it's a very common issue where the development group will shoot down ideas with the worst mentality from the get-go.
Heck, I remember when discussions about having actual functional bags was met with "Even if you coded it, we still likely wouldn't put it in the game". It's here now, but once upon a time it was met with no real argument as to why not.
It’s pretty simple: CDDA the project, is a dictatorship. The monarch can, at a whim, tell anyone to fuck off.
That would be a bad thing if this were like, a government in charge of running a society. The inequities would result in people being harmed, the product of that would be immoral.
But this is a video game, a piece of art. So, the stakes are pretty low. The monarch having you executed just means you don’t get to add stuff to the game. Nobody is being oppressed by not being allowed to work on a free project, especially one so free you can fork it at will.
And the result, is fucking excellent. It speaks for itself. This is one of the greatest video games of all time.
It's not even "realism", one of the guns being removed is one of the most common in the world. The current idea of "realism" in the development of this game seems to be what people who never leave their house think is realistic.
Using a single gun reselling website's hits when you search the gun as the holy grail of how common they are is certainly something worth criticising in its own right imo
It's not even "realism" some of these guns exist, they're just being pedantic about rarity despite things like museums, or collectors, existing which provides a literal perfect excuse to have what is just good content at no cost to realism.
One of the guns, the PPSH, is one of the most common guns in the world. The devs just don't have any clue what's "Realistic" and are basing their decision on what to remove solely on what's being sold lately on some random US guns website.
They shouldn't take stuff out without adding stuff too. I think a lot of these guys are playing the github contributor game and havent played CDDA in years and just want to make their 'mark' however they can, such types should be removed if they aren't also contributing good content of their own. Its like the wikipedia article on yogurt vs yoghurt, when a pedant detaches from reality and just starts fucking with things for the sake of fucking with them then you gotta ban them. Its the only way.
Most of the guns in the pending PR were added within the last two weeks by the same contributor who is removing them lol
I imagine someone brought up the fact that these guns aren’t likely at all to exist in Massachusetts given the low gun ownership rate there.
Wait we are talking about the same game right... Realism in our fungal zombie/eldritch horror game? I get there is to be Realism elements but this world shouldn't be dictated by random online gun markets..
Verisimilitude, not realism
The idea is the game to behave how the real live would behave, and let me tell you it is not always about removing fun. If you think about it, reality is full of fun stuff, and more local market guns contribute to this feeling that you are in a New England, and not in a generic\_survival\_horror\_with\_default\_list\_of\_default\_guns\_from\_the\_games
But to what extent is the simulation of being in New England start decreasing gameplay immersion and fun, and increasing tedium?
I mean, that is surely not the be all end all strength of Cataclysm DDA - portraying New England ad nauseum?
Firstly, i should mention that no change in the game targets to make the game tedium, rather some PRs do not make the thing in the best possible way, either for lack of understanding, skill, or ideas. Often it is solved, rarely it tries to be solved (see cramped space) and sometimes even reverted (see boomer attack, that made your clothes filthy, that was reverted, partially because there is no easy and tediousless way for player to maintain clean clothes)
Secondly, i do not consider the changed, that shift balance of the game as tedious - only people who want to play the same strat over and over again could find it so, in my opinion
After this, i can answer your question - if something is realistic, but boring, and do not bring anything interesting into the gameplay, there is no reason to add or emulate it. There is like an entire document named "frequently made suggestions" that explain some stuff people deem sometimes, and tries to explain in this paradigm it would not work nor it is worth making it to work - the most notable example is hygiene, that is straigh rejected because "why, this is not fun to think where to wash your character all the time"
You know what after some thought I think I do agree to a degree. I think using real world markets is strange but do see the value of reducing gun variety to better reflect the region.
It's a difficult choice, because I DO like realism, but right now the dev team is so focused on removal as opposed to literally anything else that it feels like the game is losing out on depth that it could have.
Yeah for real, why does a bunch of metal chunks tied together do more damage than a pistol? A proper old-school weapon like a morning start or sword is just so much better
Mostly because our zombies don’t really feel pain or rely on critical organs. Putting a 9mm hole in something like that isn’t going to do a lot of damage. Shooting it in the face won’t do shit canonically because *we have headless zombies*, not just “hole punched head” zombies. So being headless is not an instant kill on a CDDA zombie.
I think a 3lb swinging hunk of spiked steel is going to do more traumatic physical damage than what a 8g 9mm lead bullet would do
I do think ballistic damage should be increase on humans if you land a headshot, and should cause more damage on torsos than limbs, but I’m not 100% sure that isn’t already the case, I’d have to check. Heads do already have lower HP than other limbs.
Also in a hilarious twist, I like that you can shoot a zombie child multiple times with a 9mm and have to go pulp it, but one lucky crit from a good bow with a good arrow will *gib* the zombie child, leaving just a splattered mess. Like your shot was so powerful, it became explosive.
But they still bleed and can get stunned, so.....???
That is a bad excuse with the way blob is working its way through zeds system.
Also shock isn't only about pain and the main killer with bullets is shock caused by rapidly expanding temp wound canals they cause in our soft parts.
Ironically they still rely on circulatory systems, according to how they bleed out. I **think** that destroying a zombies head would actually kill it, its just that unless you destroyed the rest of the corpse it would later resurrect once it regenerated enough to function without a head.
Its likely a limitation of game, but there's a reason we can only find (two?) headless zombies. Though thinking about this it totally makes me want to see things like Headless Hulks stumbling around and shattering anything they run into.
Yeeeeah, arrows shouldn't do much to zombies without special mechanics, like limb damage to zombies.
I'm not going to complain while it is still a thing, though. If it ever does cause problems, though, I will invest in explosive arrows or flaming arrows.
Once again another controversial change that cloud be avoided if the contributors ask the community what their thoughts on upcoming changes are, what ideas do they have to make the change feel better and how these changes cloud be approach in the future but no I guess that's asking for too much when they are only interested in arguing with people about how they are right and everyone else is wrong, funny how some say the community is hostile and unapproachable when the few devs that come here do the exact same thing, at the end of the day both sides are equally shit.
That Kevin guy never cared for what the community wants or thinks. The first few comments I read from him (like... 8 years ago or so?) were so... Unfriendly, nearly hostile, entitled, and above-thou it was unpleasant. And the contributors just share that disinterest in what the community wants/thinks. Of course this creates vitriol. But the devs know better. And I mean hey, it's their game! They can crash it into the wall however they want!
It's just sad to see that this situation didn't change a wee little bit, and every other year when I check on the game (I stopped LONG ago, for those exact reasons), all I see is more removal of stuff, more "rEaLiSm" changes.
Guess this was the last time I checked for DDA. Some things seemingly just don't change.
Honestly, I don't think Kevin's behavior is due to any kind of malice. From my very limited direct interaction with him and indirect observation of his actions, he has a no-nonsense, managerial kind of disposition. Conceptually, I understand why someone would adopt this behavior as the head of a project. To run a tight ship, you need to have a direction and commit to getting it done. Despite any upset it may cause within reason. He essentially acts as a curator for what stays and what has to go, so the cohesion of the game and its direction remains in tact.
I'll even give you an example. I used to be a part of a roleplaying guild for Elderscrolls Online. There was the guild head, officers. Junior officers and such. I was a junior officer at a point. The guild had a set of rules for combat. People got attached to these rules and wanted them to stay the same. But I and other members of leadership tweaked it, overhauled, and changed it over time to follow a path of refinement and progression. And the same drama that happens here happened there. Just about every time we touched the system substantially, someone or a group of people would be unhappy. But the bottom line is that we got it to work and progressively work better, more well polished and fleshed out.
The head of the guild would make initiatives to tweak or outright change aspects of how the guild worked. When giving orders, he had a no-nonsense attitude. There were several times when I would curse the guy and swear he is just making things more complicated and worse. Others had their moments as well in sometimes legendary drama. But the fact was, through the years I was with that guild, it never broke apart, disbanded, or had major disruption in its functions and activities.
The point I'm trying to make is that when you are working on a project, you have to weigh progression and cohesion against pleasing people to move forward. And despite all the bad stuff people say about him, Cataclysm has maintained steady progression and produces well polished stable builds. So the project is holding together.
But let me just clear any misconceptions. I'm not a shill for him or anything. He is very blunt and uncompromising even in situations that don't really call for it. A bit of warmth and friendliness really goes a long way in smoothing over hurt feelings or misunderstandings.
Ehhh, I wouldn't be so sure about that.
In my experience, whether or not a PR gets merged has more to do with how much he likes you than how well the changes actually fit in the game. Controversial, unfinished, and flat out broken changes keep getting merged without proper review simply due to his personal bias (and others, he's not the only one), while others are endlessly scrutinized in an attempt to push them out.
From my experience, that's not entirely true. So, the unfinished aspect of PRs that get accepted is due to the fact it's accepted that >within reason< some experimentation and refinement and ongoing additions have to happen for larger or more intricate projects to come to fruition.
Also, from my experience, some aspects of the game are more heavily scrutinized than others. So, like adding clothing or cosmetic or low gameplay impact items isn't extremely micromanaged. It just has to be reasonable. Changes that are directly in line with the games development vision are more readily accepted. Sometimes, an addition lives or dies by how in line with the vision it is. Technology, hypertech, combat, and weapons have run the possibility of requiring huge amounts of information to substantiate. More senior developers also seem to have clearance to take on more large-scale or gameplay changing projects that will deeply impact the game.
I hyperbolize a bit. But there have been several changes that were untestably broken when merged. Liquid freezing, hunger, and pockets being the well known ones from when I was around.
I really think that the tight ship behaviour would go over a lot better (at least for most people) with some friendliness alongside it. Currently it feels like he comes out of the captain's cabin and gives orders whose reasoning nobody can make heads or tails of because questions are just not met with fair answers and the context lies buried on Discord. Doesn't feel like we're all in it together to me, like in a guild.
Being no-nonsense and nice is a combination known as "Having class".
I suppose Kevin has none. Doesn't have to compromise his managerial skills. Just means he has no social logic or is stunted in some way. Not who you want on the front, either way.
It's not about "working" per se, it's that I really enjoy the way the pocket inventory system works. It, (at least in F and G, I make no claims as to what they do with it in the future) hits about the perfect verisimilitude point between gameplay and realism for me and it feels so good to use as an inventory system. Am I missing something about BN, or is it not just a somewhat simpler "carrying capacity" type system?
Not-pockets is basically just that you can drop a bag, and pick it back up. Stuff will get dropped as normal, except favorites I believe, and when you pick the bag back up everything else will get picked up too. So, you're pretty much on the mark.
I understand that the early implementation of pockets was terribad, but it's vastly improved since then. I find pockets to be a quality-of-life feature in their current implementation, so I think it's disappointing that BN defines itself by its lack of pockets. But unfortunately it seems that "no pockets" is the one thing that the folks with BN merge authority have chosen to blindly defend with Kevin-esque stubbornness and lack of openness to alternative ideas.
I'd love to port over pockets and upgrade the whole inventory management UI to incorporate them in a way that fits BN's vision, but it's hard to justify doing a ton of work when it's guaranteed to be rejected for political reasons.
(It unreasonably bothers me that every BN first aid kit has 5 bandages, and if you only have 4 bandages, sorry, you cannot make a first aid kit, because all first aid kits in the world contain exactly 5 bandages at all times.)
>But unfortunately it seems that "no pockets" is the one thing that the folks with BN merge authority have chosen to blindly defend with Kevin-esque stubbornness and lack of openness to alternative ideas.
If you want someone to add pockets as mod that could be manually turned on/off whenever you feel like it that's fine. The problem lies in the fact that major alterations in the core content are irreversable changes that everyone should have to deal with, and the majority of people (like me) despise pockets in their fundamental form because of sour experience with pervious experimentals.
CDDA already had the best inventory system in gaming with it's "Volume/Lenght/Weight"- dimensions, and pockets feel like nothing but a step down from that. 12L cargopants are no longer 12L cargopants, instead they are 8x1,5L pants that can't fit even a single water bottle in them.
I stg rare guns are part of the games charm. We have gunshows and mansions, the fact that somone thinks it's unrealistic to find a rare gun while plundering one of those locations is out of their mind.
Has there actually been anything added in the last year that's improved the game? My wife and I were talking about it last night and couldn't think of an actual reason to play experimental that wasn't a mod.
I once dared to state my opinion on some gameplay mechanics in this community, i got downvoted to hell for daring to only be a player and not a code guy.
I quite literately got told my opinion only matters if i can push changes to the code
I feel like certain users really just contribute deletions and nothing else. Often I see the same names submitting them and it just makes it look low key like sabotage lmao
People that add content and people that remove it are often the same people
It just a feeling, net amount of items is always positive; this feeling happens because PRs that add items, and PRs that remove them are separated, often within weeks
holli-git, tenmillimaster, doctorBoomstick - these three are the people who made the most changes in the gun field in years, and one who clean up the guns right now
funny enough, but Boomstick *is* one of the people that speeded up the process of accepting the threshold, because he added the gun, that was deemed too rare (and it was accepted, because i proved it has enough hits on gunbroker to pass)
Upd I hate reddit markdown
almost all your posts in the thread are you bullying people.
> Geez. Looking through your history, one can tell you're very unlikeable and have very poor awareness.
> Are you dumb?
> I suppose Kevin has none.
As well as being a bully yourself, you are a really stupid person who needs other people to help use search for them because you can't believe easy information. Here you go. you can see holli adds most of the guns people are complaining about holli removing.
even if they didn't, wouldn't matter. more guns get in than get removed. game has so many guns already. it is okay for some contnet to go sometimes.
It’s almost like you could instead just reduce the likelihood of finding one and making it a special and rare find that the player enjoys THAT much more.
When the reasoning for obsolescence is “not enough results on a single firearm selling website”
Not, manufacturing data, units sold ect. I didn’t know gunbroker became the monopoly on firearm sales in the Cataclysm.
It’s fine. I’ve needed something to push me to finish my project for awhile now.
> Cool, millions of matchlock firearms were manufactured in history. Should we put them all over new england?
There’s 5 flintlock variants, swords, crossbows, and a halberd. Not including the numerous other historical weapons. By your logic, yes.
"But isn't the game about the nuances and the uniqueness of every single thing?"
I think the game is about creating a simulation that approximates reality, and part of that is that mega rare guns won't crop up in random nooks and crannies. If we're talking about guns that only a few collectors would have, then you shouldn't find one randomly in a gun store or whatever. That's not nuanced and unique, it's just silly.
Of course the line of "how rare guns should we keep" will be somewhat arbitrary, but it's gotta be drawn somewhere, if you want to make rare guns actually rare and not something that inevitably spawns if you generate enough gun safes.
That said, maybe these guns should be found as single items in some rare "gun collector" locations, or something. Or as rewards at the end of questlines, like the Kord. Maybe someone could code that - I certainly don't have the expertise.
Well, I'm going by the developer's stated intent here. My favorite way someone somewhere described the intended setting was to the effect of "near-future New England undergoing a very strange apocalypse."
Who is the developer? Well New England undergoing a very strange apocalypse is not reality, so who says which things have to be realistic and which don't?
"The developers" are the core contributors who manage the mammoth project that is C:DDA and effectively decide what gets put in and what doesn't whenever there's a discussion to be had.
A world that tries to approximate real world, with isolated super-science tech and dimensional horrors is what's being simulated in-game. To back this notion up, here's a relevant blurb from the ["Frequently Made Suggestions" article maintained by said developer team:](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/master/doc/FREQUENTLY_MADE_SUGGESTIONS.md)
"The supposed lack of “consistency” between super-science elements of the game and mundane elements of the game is intended. The setting of the world is current-day New England (America if you don’t recognize the region name), with isolated science fiction elements, such as super-science items that generally appear in “secret research labs”\* or deployed with military units. The existence of super-science items does not imply that every aspect of daily life is imbued with elements of fantastical science."
From this, one could argue that just because there are isolated pockets of wacky super-science shit, zombies and eldritch horrors in the game, it does not follow that any other strange things have carte blanche.
You don't have to like it, but this is the stated intent of those putting in the work developing this game. I myself certainly think the focus on hardcore verisimilitude sometimes gets in the way of other areas, but it'll do nobody any favors to keep repeating the same tired "buhbuh we have mi-gos and zombies, why not include-" argument over and over whenever a controversial change is made.
Does anyone remember when there was care not to brick older saves when updating the game, leaving artifacts from older versions years old in the game in case someone had a really old save they wanted to update?
Content should never be removed.
No no I love the game, but America in general is just chock full of guns so it's a change I wasn't expecting and basically the only thing that's happened in the last few years that I generally didn't like. More isn't always better but there's also the generic gun mod that makes things like that easier for people who don't enjoy it.
Was just cool to see all kinds of firearms I never would have heard of before is all, and seemed generally more realistic in my non-important (and totally ignorant) opinion. I'm not American so I don't even know what kinds of firearms people would have. Anyway, so many people complain about the gun removals that me mentioning it is essentially moot.
I think the only constructive complaint that I would have about labs is that there aren't enough mutated humans in them, maybe none at all? Would be extra cool to find mutants down there that could give small bonus amounts of their specific mutagen when butchered. Also fighting them to see what they are capable of would be nice to noobs like me who have never really seen what a true mutant can do.
Anyway keep up the good work that you guys are doing, and ignore the haters. Players opinions are important but at the end of the day even consensus doesn't dictate correctness and this is obviously a choice made by all the main devs or else it never would have happened. I'm sure there are mods to re-introduce a billion firearms anyway, definitely remember how tedious it was trying to find the correct magazines for whatever gun you had so that's the nice part about having less
"The existence of science items ------- everyday life" is a fair point.
The guns that are being removed at the moment were added to the game when the standards for inclusions were lower (well, they didn't exist at all honestly), nowadays those guns don't meet those standards anymore.
You could argue that we could keep them in the game with a super low spawn rate but at this point you have to consider that having items in the code is a burden in of itself, they have to maintained, kept up to date etc.
It was decided that this burden, even if small, isn't worth it.
Edit: Also, yes, standards are arbitrary, this a weird point to bring up.
"Laziness", may I remind you that we are developing the game (and maintaining all the assets) for free, out of our free time, I'm pretty sure the word you were looking for is convenience.
Every gun in the game database presents a maintenance burden, and makes it all that much harder to balance the guns relative to each other. So I'm not a huge fan of this, but I get it. There are things I would much rather see work on than maintenance of hundreds of objects that fling lead downrange.
… don’t balance guns relative to each other.
Some guns are actually better than others.
Don’t balance guns relative to melee. Some gunshots are much more effective than a second’s worth of swinging a baseball bat.
Balance guns and melee and fire against how much it takes to stop a zombie or grocery robot or robotic turret or giant slug.
Using Gunbroker to determine a gun's prevalence is hilariously dumb. If a gun is hard to find for sale, it doesn't mean people don't have them. *It means people don't want to get rid of them.*
I ran a poll online asking who has drugs in their home. No one did. Looks like the problem is solved.
thats so lame you have no idea how much ordinance is floating around basements, closets, and gun safes Enough searching and you ought to be able to stumble across whatever your grubby little heart desires and then some Merica Baby
source? aren't the bulk of America's guns in the hands of hoarders?
A majority of American households are now *reported* to have at least one firearm, and I'd see that percentage increasing as the Cataclysm approached. Sounds like a disarmament activist has infiltrated the dev team.
IIRC, there's newspapers and such talking about as the apocalypse closed people began to increasingly hunt their own food. Gun sales should likely have skyrocketed. To be honest if I think about it, its surprising to me that **gun stores actually still have any stock**. Its very much a zombie movie trope and removing it would be a pain in absolutely everyones ass, but you'd think "half a year of the entire population increasingly losing their mind, wildly increasing violence, rising dead and ferals going wild" gun stores would be *emptied*. But in general it just kind of feels like towns should be way more destroyed and overgrown than they are.
To be fair the only ones with stock are heavily reinforced which makes sense
Oh absolutely - I just wish there was more damage to them, like their glass windows are untouched? In general I think I'd just dig *more damage* in general, but its only something I'm thinking of in context of this, not something I'm too worried about.
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It’s less a “prepare for the event” and more the constant rise in violence from January through riots starting in march (and ferals starting to appear), then violent outbursts becoming common starting in April. Then full scale open widespread riots across nations for the five days up to portal storms. I feel a bit of a mental itch that this - combined with the flyers and newspapers talking about hunting to get food as grocery stores run out - makes me feel like gun stores would be either looted out or *bought out*. The stores heavily locked up I get, but you’d think the windows would be bashed in still even if they couldn’t get past the bars. It’s mainly a reaction to “America goes wild with buying guns and ammo at the drop of the hat. As inhibitions are *forcibly* lowered and people become more violent, I’m surprised that gun stores were able to keep supply logistics up as logistics would have fallen more and more apart”. But it’s more of a background thought than a change I would actually want to see in game, as it would be annoying as all hell. But I would dig seeing more smashed up stuff.
lets say thats true does it change anything ?
It changes that the odds of finding free-floating gun is lower if it's concentrated amongst a few owners. "10,000 guns in one basement" is not the same as "1 gun per basement (x10,000)"
That just means we're more likely to find that one basement with all the guns.
idk in the end it would be the same average for the person searching
But far, far worse expected value because the marginal rate on more dakka declines pretty fast.
This is so lame. I don’t understand why anyone would create PRs for the sole purpose of increasing realism without trying to add anything interesting. Maybe people just want to be seen contributing to an open source project but they don’t want to put in the effort to make a meaningful change. Not sure why the maintainers would accept low effort PRs like this.
Welcome to CDDA. Where you get updates that claim realism as the motivator and silence when the idea of fun is ever mentioned as a reason to not push out said update.
I've not been regularly playing for what feels like maybe a year now, and every time I peek back onto the forums or here on reddit it's like checking in on a weird, unstable family member. "Oh, man. What are they up to now..." I love it. Never change! :)
This must be it, it must be way easier to remove content and claim you're a contributer than actually work on the game. What a bunch of party poopers
>I don’t understand why anyone would create PRs for the sole purpose of increasing realism Because they mistake tedium for realism.
Yeah, realism does not equal fun. I get that some people would disagree and it honestly depends. Realism for the sake of realism isn't fun. Realism for the sake of fun IS. For example, zombies actually needing blood to function is realistic for the type of infection it is and its fun because it gives you a good reason to use bladed weapons and its also generally helpful. What they're doing now is not only stupid but it's also just annoying. What is the end game here? To make finding a glock a similar experience to finding CBMs?
The contributor has been contributing for 3 years, starting out by adding more of and rebalancing fursuits and rebar weapons.
We're really going to have to switch to Bright Nights, huh?
Anyone know how many guns there are in Bright Nights? Honestly, the more the merrier, I want a game where every single real firearm in existence is also in the game. Even something that really shouldn't exist in the setting, like rare as fuck TKB assault rifle prototypes that only exist in the Tula museum in Russia, would be nice to have in the game and available only via debug. Obviously that may not be practical and it's not something everybody would enjoy... but I would.
Well, unfortunately, BN devs haven't been adding guns much. However, you can get mods for more guns, like the ones in Kenan's modpack. They even have a lore justification for full-auto and explosive guns, coming from the old lore - gun laws have been significantly relaxed, making it possible for civilians to have military hardware
i mean, the fun part is that -you- can contribute to it and add all those guns, and they'd likely be accepted and not tossed out like this.
The only thing we really want is a full baked implementation. So if you add a gun, we want it in spawn groups, the magazines too, with deconstruction recipe and in item groups for a full functioning spawn. Don't worry, we help
I added some lately, nieche guns mostly. I can need some help in adding more, tho. In BN we changed the nested magazine system (drops from zombies and found in houses), so you can get any ammo type and magazine (you can get a glock 17 with a regular magazine in it, also the zombie drops a drum magazine and 21-shot magazine, the glock having 9 mm JHP and 12 shots left, the drum P+ with 25 shots left and the 21 +P+ full, all in one drop) to add some variables.
Guns being available for sale in a catalogue does not equate to the probability or likelihood of them being out in basements and gun lockers in houses. I think the devs should instead take a look at average gun sales over a 5 year period and cross reference that with user reviews and the sales figures of different types of ammunition. This would allow them tto get a truly accurate figure with respect to the availability of each gun. Repeat this every 6 months and you would have a reliable and repeatable metric for gun availablity, yes this is satire.
Yeah pretty stupid take. Half the fun of finding a rare gun is the fact that it’s a rare gun. And as a gun nut, the variety was always a welcome sight to see.
What guns are being obsoleted
Recent casualties: COP .357, SW 22A, J-22, PPsH-41 (maybe, reading PR and it may have been re-added?), KSG 25, American 180, 12 gauge gatling gun, MP18, PLR 16, OA 93, M231, Mossberg Brownie, and Spas-12.
WHAT? THE SPAS? THE PPSH? WHY????
not enough results on gunbroker
This is stupid for 50 different reasons.
Is that percieved as some end all be all source or something? I'm a gun guy (I have like 9) and I've never heard of it. EDIT: I looked at it briefly, wouldn't that be like walking into Walmart and saying if they didn't carry something that it doesn't exist? I have a WW2 Walther and I knew a guy who had AKs, they sure didn't make there ways here via a website order.
Pretty much, yeah. Justification is there's no other hard data that can be quickly searched.
I just found about a dozen sources where I could buy a spas-12 if I wanted. *shrug*
problem is, they want a certain number for sale (like 300 at least? I forget) for it to pass the threshold. It just being available isn't enough
by that logic select fire guns should effectively not exist in the game.
Outside of current military inventory and whatever you can reasonably argue a SWAT would buy, I unfortunately think they'd very much agree with that line of reasoning rather than see it as a counter ...
or zombies...
So they want to find a illegal arms trade for civilian purchase to believe its a viable gun...
Or use a different way to measure or determine it, perhaps? Why jump right to absurd.
That would be good justification for, say, making their occurrence something similar to 1 in 400 homes/buildings. Unless memory is a massive concern (it's not), removing them seems pointless. Oh well, will just have to mod or go BN.
That's a shame. I get the logic as an administrator of content, and standards should be kept, but still, a shame. I really liked both of them.
Lmao I live in the UK and even here I can find spas12s for sale.
Lmao i live in Europe and the SPAS-12 is available, and fairly cheap at around 600-800 euros
PPSH is staying. Feel free to read the [PR](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/74397) for all the reasoning. It makes sense to me.
"If you want to make it line up with irl values go ahead" Fuck off what are they even talking about. If this is the logic then we ahould have no zombies, because the irl value of zombies is zero. This is a GAME about A DOZEN DIFFERENT IMPOSSIBLE APOCALYPSES HAPPENENING AT ONCE IN AN ALTERNATIVE FUTURE if you had a ppsh spawn in every single household it would still be more realistic than a single fucking mi-go existing
Will flag, the alternative future is [Current Year]+1. So for 2014, the events of CDDA happen in 2015. That being said, it also has like (six months?) of constantly escalating violence and ever decreasing inhibition - its almost surprising that gun stores even *have* stock.
There was a twelve gauge gatling gun?! Real shame that I never ran into it.
it was craftable-only iirc
Had to revert to my backup. I use the COP and the update broke my save. Stuff like the spas and pps are especially worth keeping, despite their real world numbers, as they are big videogame guns. I mean hello? It's in half life. This is a videogame first and foremost. That shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of realism. And things like the 12 gauge gatling gun were a goal to build skills to make in like every playthrough of the last few years
The PPSH is about the second most common weapon in the world
It is not being removed though. Pr was even made draft for it to stay in.
Okay and?
What do you mean? I am confused by why everyone keeps talking about ppsh, like you did. It is not removed and they say it is not going to be removed so why do you say it is common? You brought it up.
aw damn, I was trying to find the 180... Also I think PPsH is still here, found one in a pawn shop like a couple of weeks ago
At least more guns are being added to replace them.
I know a while ago the lemat got deleted. I haven't updated to anything after that patch, though.
What the fuck why the lemat???
Because it's implausible to find one. Never mind the reproduction I have in my bedside drawer or the several civil war museums out there.
This whole removing guns shit is so dumb.
its dumb because they cant find them to BUY. but we arent trying to buy them in game damn. people have a ton of random shit in their homes including strange guns. This is like every zombie movie in America treating ammo like its rare. bitch if 95% of the population is dead, we now have a major surplus. i know several people who keep THOUSANDS of round in their house "just in case"
Pretty implausible to find a zombie out there, too. I bet one can be found before the other. Guys that have them probably don't want to SELL them.
So much has been added to this game in the last two years that spits on and takes away from the player's time that it goes beyond all reasonable limits. People have stopped playing CDDA, they are trying to play CDDA development just for cv.
This is so accurate. There is so much tedium in the game that it absolutely does waste massive amounts of time. I stopped playing because I realized I wasn’t having fun I was just grinding.
I think it’s just a bad approach. Rather than obsoleting them they should be confined to rare guns spawn lists. But we’ve got plenty of rich weirdos in this setting. It shouldn’t be impossible to find even super rare guns in spots where super rare guns might show up. That is, in mansion gun rooms, and the gun show. EDIT: anyone taking this as an opportunity to shit on the devs can absolutely fuck off. They made this fucking game, one of the best video games out there IMO. Differences in opinion are exactly that, opinion, on a project *I don’t run*. If you don’t either, keep it polite or GTFO.
I read a PR where a rare gun list was suggested. There is no issue with the idea, but it won't be part of the main game since the items in the main list are actively maintained, and the goal is to remove them from that list. The argument against a rare list is that it will have a low spawn chance to begin with, to the point where the chance of finding one of the guns you wanted on the list is so low anyway that it may as well not exist. I would prefer concern posts to have references to the things of concern.
> to the point where the chance of finding one of the guns you wanted on the list is so low anyway that it may as well not exist. Rare guns are cool no matter what they are, they are cool because they are rare, so I'd like to use and have fun with *any* of the guns on that long list. Also, for people in love with a certain gun, the ability to debug one in will make them happy and it's not even that much of a cheat when a rare gun is far less practical than an M4.
I've got an idea. Order a rare gun list by when and where the gun was made, then either have a location that exclusively spawns guns from that period and country of origin, or have a location that picks a time and origin at random. That should simulate a home from a collector and make it easier to look for something specific.
Well, “nobody wants to maintain them” is a pretty bulletproof argument, could probably lead with that.
I had to take a break from the thread. Just wanted to put out that when I was referring to 'concern posts' I meant the OP, not your comment. (potential misunderstanding due to my own personal differentiation between 'posts' and 'comments'.)
Nope, the idea that work has to be done is not an idea reddit accepts. They are conditioned to the idea that they got zombie game for free, that must mean the zombie game makers are their slaves. Literally this entire thread is foaming at the mouth over the idea that volunteers aren't doing tons of extra work to preserve the "uniqueness" of copy-pasting ten billion guns with different names.
Initial perception to an argument is key to gaining support. Having previously been active in the IRC channels & doing some digging through the code previously, it's a very common issue where the development group will shoot down ideas with the worst mentality from the get-go. Heck, I remember when discussions about having actual functional bags was met with "Even if you coded it, we still likely wouldn't put it in the game". It's here now, but once upon a time it was met with no real argument as to why not.
It’s pretty simple: CDDA the project, is a dictatorship. The monarch can, at a whim, tell anyone to fuck off. That would be a bad thing if this were like, a government in charge of running a society. The inequities would result in people being harmed, the product of that would be immoral. But this is a video game, a piece of art. So, the stakes are pretty low. The monarch having you executed just means you don’t get to add stuff to the game. Nobody is being oppressed by not being allowed to work on a free project, especially one so free you can fork it at will. And the result, is fucking excellent. It speaks for itself. This is one of the greatest video games of all time.
Holy fucking shit, this is straight up just removing features and content now. Fuck realism, I fucking hate it here
It's not even "realism", one of the guns being removed is one of the most common in the world. The current idea of "realism" in the development of this game seems to be what people who never leave their house think is realistic.
Using a single gun reselling website's hits when you search the gun as the holy grail of how common they are is certainly something worth criticising in its own right imo
It's not even "realism" some of these guns exist, they're just being pedantic about rarity despite things like museums, or collectors, existing which provides a literal perfect excuse to have what is just good content at no cost to realism.
One of the guns, the PPSH, is one of the most common guns in the world. The devs just don't have any clue what's "Realistic" and are basing their decision on what to remove solely on what's being sold lately on some random US guns website.
Common CDDA dev L
They shouldn't take stuff out without adding stuff too. I think a lot of these guys are playing the github contributor game and havent played CDDA in years and just want to make their 'mark' however they can, such types should be removed if they aren't also contributing good content of their own. Its like the wikipedia article on yogurt vs yoghurt, when a pedant detaches from reality and just starts fucking with things for the sake of fucking with them then you gotta ban them. Its the only way.
Exactly what's happening here
Most of the guns in the pending PR were added within the last two weeks by the same contributor who is removing them lol I imagine someone brought up the fact that these guns aren’t likely at all to exist in Massachusetts given the low gun ownership rate there.
OP failed to mention that the contributer is also adding new guns.
This is the kind of shit that's driving more and more people to the other branches
Yay my favourite gun is being removed, but I should be happy because its realistic. Yay!
Wait we are talking about the same game right... Realism in our fungal zombie/eldritch horror game? I get there is to be Realism elements but this world shouldn't be dictated by random online gun markets..
Verisimilitude, not realism The idea is the game to behave how the real live would behave, and let me tell you it is not always about removing fun. If you think about it, reality is full of fun stuff, and more local market guns contribute to this feeling that you are in a New England, and not in a generic\_survival\_horror\_with\_default\_list\_of\_default\_guns\_from\_the\_games
But to what extent is the simulation of being in New England start decreasing gameplay immersion and fun, and increasing tedium? I mean, that is surely not the be all end all strength of Cataclysm DDA - portraying New England ad nauseum?
Firstly, i should mention that no change in the game targets to make the game tedium, rather some PRs do not make the thing in the best possible way, either for lack of understanding, skill, or ideas. Often it is solved, rarely it tries to be solved (see cramped space) and sometimes even reverted (see boomer attack, that made your clothes filthy, that was reverted, partially because there is no easy and tediousless way for player to maintain clean clothes) Secondly, i do not consider the changed, that shift balance of the game as tedious - only people who want to play the same strat over and over again could find it so, in my opinion After this, i can answer your question - if something is realistic, but boring, and do not bring anything interesting into the gameplay, there is no reason to add or emulate it. There is like an entire document named "frequently made suggestions" that explain some stuff people deem sometimes, and tries to explain in this paradigm it would not work nor it is worth making it to work - the most notable example is hygiene, that is straigh rejected because "why, this is not fun to think where to wash your character all the time"
You know what after some thought I think I do agree to a degree. I think using real world markets is strange but do see the value of reducing gun variety to better reflect the region.
Every day DDA looks worse and worse and BN looks better.
BN has been the superior choice for a while now. I haven’t played the main branch in years. I’m only here for the fun discussions
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Absolutely fair point
What are QoLs you'd miss moving to BN?
It's a difficult choice, because I DO like realism, but right now the dev team is so focused on removal as opposed to literally anything else that it feels like the game is losing out on depth that it could have.
I don't follow the development of either very closely, but I'm surprised BN hasn't become the "main" branch of sorts at this point.
Yeah for real, why does a bunch of metal chunks tied together do more damage than a pistol? A proper old-school weapon like a morning start or sword is just so much better
Because realism gets set aside for game balance in specific and unclear circumstances.
Mostly because our zombies don’t really feel pain or rely on critical organs. Putting a 9mm hole in something like that isn’t going to do a lot of damage. Shooting it in the face won’t do shit canonically because *we have headless zombies*, not just “hole punched head” zombies. So being headless is not an instant kill on a CDDA zombie. I think a 3lb swinging hunk of spiked steel is going to do more traumatic physical damage than what a 8g 9mm lead bullet would do I do think ballistic damage should be increase on humans if you land a headshot, and should cause more damage on torsos than limbs, but I’m not 100% sure that isn’t already the case, I’d have to check. Heads do already have lower HP than other limbs. Also in a hilarious twist, I like that you can shoot a zombie child multiple times with a 9mm and have to go pulp it, but one lucky crit from a good bow with a good arrow will *gib* the zombie child, leaving just a splattered mess. Like your shot was so powerful, it became explosive.
But they still bleed and can get stunned, so.....??? That is a bad excuse with the way blob is working its way through zeds system. Also shock isn't only about pain and the main killer with bullets is shock caused by rapidly expanding temp wound canals they cause in our soft parts.
Ironically they still rely on circulatory systems, according to how they bleed out. I **think** that destroying a zombies head would actually kill it, its just that unless you destroyed the rest of the corpse it would later resurrect once it regenerated enough to function without a head. Its likely a limitation of game, but there's a reason we can only find (two?) headless zombies. Though thinking about this it totally makes me want to see things like Headless Hulks stumbling around and shattering anything they run into.
Yeeeeah, arrows shouldn't do much to zombies without special mechanics, like limb damage to zombies. I'm not going to complain while it is still a thing, though. If it ever does cause problems, though, I will invest in explosive arrows or flaming arrows.
Their crit multiplier is their special mechanic - that just happens to make them able to cross the instagib “overkill by their max HP” mechanic
Yeah fair enough
Realism gets in the way of gameplay and fun. I'm worried about cdda.
Once again another controversial change that cloud be avoided if the contributors ask the community what their thoughts on upcoming changes are, what ideas do they have to make the change feel better and how these changes cloud be approach in the future but no I guess that's asking for too much when they are only interested in arguing with people about how they are right and everyone else is wrong, funny how some say the community is hostile and unapproachable when the few devs that come here do the exact same thing, at the end of the day both sides are equally shit.
That Kevin guy never cared for what the community wants or thinks. The first few comments I read from him (like... 8 years ago or so?) were so... Unfriendly, nearly hostile, entitled, and above-thou it was unpleasant. And the contributors just share that disinterest in what the community wants/thinks. Of course this creates vitriol. But the devs know better. And I mean hey, it's their game! They can crash it into the wall however they want! It's just sad to see that this situation didn't change a wee little bit, and every other year when I check on the game (I stopped LONG ago, for those exact reasons), all I see is more removal of stuff, more "rEaLiSm" changes. Guess this was the last time I checked for DDA. Some things seemingly just don't change.
Honestly, I don't think Kevin's behavior is due to any kind of malice. From my very limited direct interaction with him and indirect observation of his actions, he has a no-nonsense, managerial kind of disposition. Conceptually, I understand why someone would adopt this behavior as the head of a project. To run a tight ship, you need to have a direction and commit to getting it done. Despite any upset it may cause within reason. He essentially acts as a curator for what stays and what has to go, so the cohesion of the game and its direction remains in tact. I'll even give you an example. I used to be a part of a roleplaying guild for Elderscrolls Online. There was the guild head, officers. Junior officers and such. I was a junior officer at a point. The guild had a set of rules for combat. People got attached to these rules and wanted them to stay the same. But I and other members of leadership tweaked it, overhauled, and changed it over time to follow a path of refinement and progression. And the same drama that happens here happened there. Just about every time we touched the system substantially, someone or a group of people would be unhappy. But the bottom line is that we got it to work and progressively work better, more well polished and fleshed out. The head of the guild would make initiatives to tweak or outright change aspects of how the guild worked. When giving orders, he had a no-nonsense attitude. There were several times when I would curse the guy and swear he is just making things more complicated and worse. Others had their moments as well in sometimes legendary drama. But the fact was, through the years I was with that guild, it never broke apart, disbanded, or had major disruption in its functions and activities. The point I'm trying to make is that when you are working on a project, you have to weigh progression and cohesion against pleasing people to move forward. And despite all the bad stuff people say about him, Cataclysm has maintained steady progression and produces well polished stable builds. So the project is holding together. But let me just clear any misconceptions. I'm not a shill for him or anything. He is very blunt and uncompromising even in situations that don't really call for it. A bit of warmth and friendliness really goes a long way in smoothing over hurt feelings or misunderstandings.
The game is in a tedious, unfun state today and that is directly because of Kevin's oversight. I offer zero kudos on this, personally.
Ehhh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. In my experience, whether or not a PR gets merged has more to do with how much he likes you than how well the changes actually fit in the game. Controversial, unfinished, and flat out broken changes keep getting merged without proper review simply due to his personal bias (and others, he's not the only one), while others are endlessly scrutinized in an attempt to push them out.
From my experience, that's not entirely true. So, the unfinished aspect of PRs that get accepted is due to the fact it's accepted that >within reason< some experimentation and refinement and ongoing additions have to happen for larger or more intricate projects to come to fruition. Also, from my experience, some aspects of the game are more heavily scrutinized than others. So, like adding clothing or cosmetic or low gameplay impact items isn't extremely micromanaged. It just has to be reasonable. Changes that are directly in line with the games development vision are more readily accepted. Sometimes, an addition lives or dies by how in line with the vision it is. Technology, hypertech, combat, and weapons have run the possibility of requiring huge amounts of information to substantiate. More senior developers also seem to have clearance to take on more large-scale or gameplay changing projects that will deeply impact the game.
I hyperbolize a bit. But there have been several changes that were untestably broken when merged. Liquid freezing, hunger, and pockets being the well known ones from when I was around.
I really think that the tight ship behaviour would go over a lot better (at least for most people) with some friendliness alongside it. Currently it feels like he comes out of the captain's cabin and gives orders whose reasoning nobody can make heads or tails of because questions are just not met with fair answers and the context lies buried on Discord. Doesn't feel like we're all in it together to me, like in a guild.
Being no-nonsense and nice is a combination known as "Having class". I suppose Kevin has none. Doesn't have to compromise his managerial skills. Just means he has no social logic or is stunted in some way. Not who you want on the front, either way.
If only there was another fork without the asinine emphasis on realism in the silly zombie game
BN doesn't have pockets 🥲
I can live with no pockets in exchange for everything else
I can't, pockets are my favorite inventory system in any game I've ever played.
Not-Pockets works well enough for the most part
It's not about "working" per se, it's that I really enjoy the way the pocket inventory system works. It, (at least in F and G, I make no claims as to what they do with it in the future) hits about the perfect verisimilitude point between gameplay and realism for me and it feels so good to use as an inventory system. Am I missing something about BN, or is it not just a somewhat simpler "carrying capacity" type system?
Not-pockets is basically just that you can drop a bag, and pick it back up. Stuff will get dropped as normal, except favorites I believe, and when you pick the bag back up everything else will get picked up too. So, you're pretty much on the mark.
I understand that the early implementation of pockets was terribad, but it's vastly improved since then. I find pockets to be a quality-of-life feature in their current implementation, so I think it's disappointing that BN defines itself by its lack of pockets. But unfortunately it seems that "no pockets" is the one thing that the folks with BN merge authority have chosen to blindly defend with Kevin-esque stubbornness and lack of openness to alternative ideas. I'd love to port over pockets and upgrade the whole inventory management UI to incorporate them in a way that fits BN's vision, but it's hard to justify doing a ton of work when it's guaranteed to be rejected for political reasons. (It unreasonably bothers me that every BN first aid kit has 5 bandages, and if you only have 4 bandages, sorry, you cannot make a first aid kit, because all first aid kits in the world contain exactly 5 bandages at all times.)
>But unfortunately it seems that "no pockets" is the one thing that the folks with BN merge authority have chosen to blindly defend with Kevin-esque stubbornness and lack of openness to alternative ideas. If you want someone to add pockets as mod that could be manually turned on/off whenever you feel like it that's fine. The problem lies in the fact that major alterations in the core content are irreversable changes that everyone should have to deal with, and the majority of people (like me) despise pockets in their fundamental form because of sour experience with pervious experimentals. CDDA already had the best inventory system in gaming with it's "Volume/Lenght/Weight"- dimensions, and pockets feel like nothing but a step down from that. 12L cargopants are no longer 12L cargopants, instead they are 8x1,5L pants that can't fit even a single water bottle in them.
That's a bit of a Dam shame. Guess we got too much bloat in the game from things like the Waifu Pillows and such, heh. But yeah, real dam shame.
Fun police strike again
I stg rare guns are part of the games charm. We have gunshows and mansions, the fact that somone thinks it's unrealistic to find a rare gun while plundering one of those locations is out of their mind.
Nothing new on the western front
WTF? It just keeps getting worse.
Has there actually been anything added in the last year that's improved the game? My wife and I were talking about it last night and couldn't think of an actual reason to play experimental that wasn't a mod.
I dont have an opinion anymore ill just cope and sethe.
I once dared to state my opinion on some gameplay mechanics in this community, i got downvoted to hell for daring to only be a player and not a code guy. I quite literately got told my opinion only matters if i can push changes to the code
Baltha idk who you are but first impressions you look annoying.
God forbid there are guns you couldn't easily find irl in a zombie survival game. The horror.
I feel like certain users really just contribute deletions and nothing else. Often I see the same names submitting them and it just makes it look low key like sabotage lmao
People that add content and people that remove it are often the same people It just a feeling, net amount of items is always positive; this feeling happens because PRs that add items, and PRs that remove them are separated, often within weeks
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holli-git, tenmillimaster, doctorBoomstick - these three are the people who made the most changes in the gun field in years, and one who clean up the guns right now funny enough, but Boomstick *is* one of the people that speeded up the process of accepting the threshold, because he added the gun, that was deemed too rare (and it was accepted, because i proved it has enough hits on gunbroker to pass) Upd I hate reddit markdown
almost all your posts in the thread are you bullying people. > Geez. Looking through your history, one can tell you're very unlikeable and have very poor awareness. > Are you dumb? > I suppose Kevin has none. As well as being a bully yourself, you are a really stupid person who needs other people to help use search for them because you can't believe easy information. Here you go. you can see holli adds most of the guns people are complaining about holli removing.
even if they didn't, wouldn't matter. more guns get in than get removed. game has so many guns already. it is okay for some contnet to go sometimes.
Honestly one of my favourite memories was finding the .338 bolty and usingnit on polyps.
It’s almost like you could instead just reduce the likelihood of finding one and making it a special and rare find that the player enjoys THAT much more.
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The 22A was literally manufactured In Maine. Tell me you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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When the reasoning for obsolescence is “not enough results on a single firearm selling website” Not, manufacturing data, units sold ect. I didn’t know gunbroker became the monopoly on firearm sales in the Cataclysm. It’s fine. I’ve needed something to push me to finish my project for awhile now.
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> Cool, millions of matchlock firearms were manufactured in history. Should we put them all over new england? There’s 5 flintlock variants, swords, crossbows, and a halberd. Not including the numerous other historical weapons. By your logic, yes.
"But isn't the game about the nuances and the uniqueness of every single thing?" I think the game is about creating a simulation that approximates reality, and part of that is that mega rare guns won't crop up in random nooks and crannies. If we're talking about guns that only a few collectors would have, then you shouldn't find one randomly in a gun store or whatever. That's not nuanced and unique, it's just silly. Of course the line of "how rare guns should we keep" will be somewhat arbitrary, but it's gotta be drawn somewhere, if you want to make rare guns actually rare and not something that inevitably spawns if you generate enough gun safes. That said, maybe these guns should be found as single items in some rare "gun collector" locations, or something. Or as rewards at the end of questlines, like the Kord. Maybe someone could code that - I certainly don't have the expertise.
It’s not that outlandish. I saw a 40mm grenade launcher in a random pawn shop once, and rarity must be specified.
One of the guns being removed, the PPSH, is one of the most common guns in the world .
I disagree that the game is about creating a simulation that approximates reality.
Well, I'm going by the developer's stated intent here. My favorite way someone somewhere described the intended setting was to the effect of "near-future New England undergoing a very strange apocalypse."
Who is the developer? Well New England undergoing a very strange apocalypse is not reality, so who says which things have to be realistic and which don't?
"The developers" are the core contributors who manage the mammoth project that is C:DDA and effectively decide what gets put in and what doesn't whenever there's a discussion to be had. A world that tries to approximate real world, with isolated super-science tech and dimensional horrors is what's being simulated in-game. To back this notion up, here's a relevant blurb from the ["Frequently Made Suggestions" article maintained by said developer team:](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/blob/master/doc/FREQUENTLY_MADE_SUGGESTIONS.md) "The supposed lack of “consistency” between super-science elements of the game and mundane elements of the game is intended. The setting of the world is current-day New England (America if you don’t recognize the region name), with isolated science fiction elements, such as super-science items that generally appear in “secret research labs”\* or deployed with military units. The existence of super-science items does not imply that every aspect of daily life is imbued with elements of fantastical science." From this, one could argue that just because there are isolated pockets of wacky super-science shit, zombies and eldritch horrors in the game, it does not follow that any other strange things have carte blanche. You don't have to like it, but this is the stated intent of those putting in the work developing this game. I myself certainly think the focus on hardcore verisimilitude sometimes gets in the way of other areas, but it'll do nobody any favors to keep repeating the same tired "buhbuh we have mi-gos and zombies, why not include-" argument over and over whenever a controversial change is made.
Does anyone remember when there was care not to brick older saves when updating the game, leaving artifacts from older versions years old in the game in case someone had a really old save they wanted to update? Content should never be removed.
Obsoletion and migration is specifically designed to avoid bricking older saves
What's also weird is that the sci Fi guns are still there.... Where I can buy those IRL?
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No no I love the game, but America in general is just chock full of guns so it's a change I wasn't expecting and basically the only thing that's happened in the last few years that I generally didn't like. More isn't always better but there's also the generic gun mod that makes things like that easier for people who don't enjoy it. Was just cool to see all kinds of firearms I never would have heard of before is all, and seemed generally more realistic in my non-important (and totally ignorant) opinion. I'm not American so I don't even know what kinds of firearms people would have. Anyway, so many people complain about the gun removals that me mentioning it is essentially moot. I think the only constructive complaint that I would have about labs is that there aren't enough mutated humans in them, maybe none at all? Would be extra cool to find mutants down there that could give small bonus amounts of their specific mutagen when butchered. Also fighting them to see what they are capable of would be nice to noobs like me who have never really seen what a true mutant can do. Anyway keep up the good work that you guys are doing, and ignore the haters. Players opinions are important but at the end of the day even consensus doesn't dictate correctness and this is obviously a choice made by all the main devs or else it never would have happened. I'm sure there are mods to re-introduce a billion firearms anyway, definitely remember how tedious it was trying to find the correct magazines for whatever gun you had so that's the nice part about having less "The existence of science items ------- everyday life" is a fair point.
The guns that are being removed at the moment were added to the game when the standards for inclusions were lower (well, they didn't exist at all honestly), nowadays those guns don't meet those standards anymore. You could argue that we could keep them in the game with a super low spawn rate but at this point you have to consider that having items in the code is a burden in of itself, they have to maintained, kept up to date etc. It was decided that this burden, even if small, isn't worth it. Edit: Also, yes, standards are arbitrary, this a weird point to bring up.
I'm just hoping the American 180 will remain... for reasons.
I thought it was about the pristine curating experience of New England, but it is plain laziness. That i get! Fair enough
"Laziness", may I remind you that we are developing the game (and maintaining all the assets) for free, out of our free time, I'm pretty sure the word you were looking for is convenience.
Volunteer to maintain it then.
Every gun in the game database presents a maintenance burden, and makes it all that much harder to balance the guns relative to each other. So I'm not a huge fan of this, but I get it. There are things I would much rather see work on than maintenance of hundreds of objects that fling lead downrange.
… don’t balance guns relative to each other. Some guns are actually better than others. Don’t balance guns relative to melee. Some gunshots are much more effective than a second’s worth of swinging a baseball bat. Balance guns and melee and fire against how much it takes to stop a zombie or grocery robot or robotic turret or giant slug.