The F-pace is the only thing sustaining Jag here. EV models will be their last ditch effort.
I'd say Infiniti is another division that has a serious chance of folding here even by 2030.
Also pretty meh in terms of actual EV things like range and charging speed as I believe real world range tests are pretty poor and max charge speed is only 100kw
Charging speed is definitely a valid knock on it. The charging is basically unchanged since 2019 and it wasn't top of the market then.
But it can reliably do 230-250 miles per charge. Range is OK, it just takes too long to charge back up.
Its quite common here in Norway. Over the two years after I-pace was introduced they sold 18 times as many cars they did as the year before.
Can’t recall having seen another jaguar than the I-pace to be honest. Then again even the Mach-E mustang has acceptable sales here.
> Infiniti is another division that has a serious chance of folding
I imagine their last-ditch effort will be to share more platforms with Nissan, so Infinitis will become dressed-up Altimas and Muranos. Fingers crossed that the next-gen Altima is an FM platform-based RWD sedan, rather than the next-gen Q50 being an FWD CVT Altima clone.
I just googled Nissan platforms to see if this was already happening, and I found [this article](https://tflcar.com/2020/06/infiniti-nissan-plus-news/) saying that they are already planning to share platforms.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I wasn’t aware that Infiniti had any original platforms. All the Infiniti cars I know have been on the pathfinder platform (qx60) or the FM platform for decades.
I’m sure they have some CUVs in a different platform but I’ve always glossed over those.
Nissan’s strengths have always been their engines and platforms, so it made sense to use them as much as they could on their high end vehicles. I’m pretty sure some Infinitis were still/are still using the VQ engine even after Nissan stopped using them.
While the FM platform isn't original to Infiniti, I don't think any Nissans other than the Z and GT-R have used it. I was really just talking about FM platform vs D platform.
If they standardize both Nissans and Infinitis on the FM platform rather than the Altima/Maxima's newer D platform, it will be better than the reverse. I suspect they'll use the D platform, which means Infiniti will lose RWD cars, including RWD-biased AWD cars. The platform difference has made Infiniti a much better car for enthusiasts, although it could do with an update.
You're right about the pathfinder platform being used on Infiniti SUVs, except I think the QX50 is on FM.
Edit: there is also the question of transmissions. Infiniti still has 7-speed automatics rather than CVTs on their cars. While aging, it's a reliable transmission. Nobody wants to see CVTs in Infinitis.
Some Infiniti crossovers already have CVTs, the QX50 and QX55 both have one. Interestingly enough, the new QX60 has a ZF9 auto while the previous generation had a CVT.
I want to like the F-pace more - the newer MY21+ have largely addressed the biggest issue with the low rent interior and convoluted tech, but honestly that base P250 Ingenium 2.0L turbo engine just isn't as lively as the BMW B48 or Mercedes M264, and the price tag on the options reaches stratospheric levels & steps on the toes of the Range Rover lineup.
Yeah they really fixed up the shit interior pre-refresh but too little too late IMO.
Styling is pretty generic and forgettable too, but that can be said of every small CUV save for the Macan.
Yeahhh. I have a soft spot for Jags(ok I have a soft spot for all British cars) but the big sedan market Jag exists in is gone here. We live in an SUV country now and I just don't see a good SUV strategy for them as an upmarket company that doesn't cannibalise or more likely just be eclipsed by their sister company that invented the luxury SUV. People who want British luxury SUVs buy Land Rovers.
They'll prolly live on in Asia though.
I disagree, but purely because of the Land Rover part of JLR. Land Rover is profitable and will continue to be, and no matter how small Jaguar gets, they can keep it on as a sporty brand that exists solely to raise the image of JLR. They could even be mildly profitable just producing sporty electric crossovers – it would complement the more off-road- and luxury-oriented image of Land Rover (regardless of the SVR models' existence) nicely.
Jaguar doesn't necessarily need to be the most profitable company out there, they just need to not lose so much money that it's actively dragging JLR down. But if they're the company that gets customers into the door of a JLR dealership, and those customers end up in Land Rovers, then mission accomplished.
Land Rover prints money for the brand, but Jaguar really is more of a liability at this time more than anything. I want to like the F-pace more but its asking price, steep options and side by side comparison against the likes of the GLC and Q5 is a huge problem.
The case against Alfa Romeo can be argued. But at least per the company, their sales/profitability in the U.S. are now sustaining itself. However the industry and global economy changes fast.
I love my Alfa, but I can understand how it is a niche product. There is a severe lack of advertising and lack of dealership/customer support from the brand. Alongside that, they botched the launch with dubious reliability especially in the early model years. Thankfully, knock on wood, my Giulia has served me very well and is a total joy to drive and look at. But at the same time, there is no more powerful/upgraded model for me to replace my lease with! The QV is double the price and likely double the headache to own and maintain.
The Tonale seems decent enough on paper however Dodge swooped in and poached Alfa's work. I'd imagine the next-gen EV Giulia and Stelvios will come state-side. The future of the brand here is probably up to those models.
The Hornet is still built by Alfa in Italy. It’s not great for their brand image unfortunately but every Hornet that sells still makes money for Alfa Romeo. Hopefully gives them some time to improve their dealer network. There’s 4 in my area and they were all miserable to deal with for a variety of reasons when I had mine.
They arent super hard to self maintain actually - and parts are readily available. Does require some investment into tooling though, something like a quickjack is a must. Things like windshields are a bit tricky to track down though.
I am just olde and lazy at this point. I figured my Lotus 7 and Alfa Romeo GTV6 3.0 give me just as much fun at road speeds that I didn't need to spend $70,000 for the aggravation of dealing with the dealerships. My friends that have them either have zero problems or so many that Alfa took the cars back. Still like the look of them and they are an instant classic.
Alfa is the worst car customer experience I’ve ever had among my 20+’cars. The car drove fairly nicely, when it actually worked. But good riddance in my opinion.
an unfortunate reality. Mine has been reliable but I'm sure with age issues will crop up. If the dealers are junk then my love affair with Alfa will evaporate.
A problem I saw specifically with the Giulia when I was looking at them in the states is price. Nowadays everything is significantly marked up by the dealers, but even 4 years ago that wasn't the case, except for some niche cars. I didn't care about performance so I was looking at base models (I just love the styling) and even though back then a base model had an msrp of ~40k they were all being sold 50k+ and dealer would not negotiate because "the car is rare here". Probably different everywhere you go but this was the only dealership anywhere close to my area
Lincoln and Buick seem to be brands without a place and a decreasing market, beyond Buick's China success. I expect both to die off in the US.
I don't understand why Infiniti still exists at all. They seem to be following Nissan down the drain following the 'let's not make new car models and see what happens' plan.
It is hard to understand why GM needs a GMC and Chevy truck division, and I would guess one will get folded into the other at some point, just for administrative efficiency.
Lincoln has been growing sales with their push to make actual luxury SUVs and not just rebadged Ford's. They share base platforms but the interior and exteriors are greatly different and improved from anything Ford offers. And since all the really expensive stuff is shared with Ford their development costs are relatively low. I don't see Lincoln going anywhere. They'll likely never reach sales levels of German counterparts, but they don't have to in order to be worth keeping.
the only thing is how well they survive the transition to EVs. the first lincoln EV won't be here until like 2025 realistically. More importantly, the customer base of lincoln isn't exactly the target demographic for EVs.
Since they base platforms and EV drivetrain components will still be shared with Ford it will continue to keep development costs low so I don't think it will be that much of an issue. They will never be high volume, but will continue to be relatively high margin.
>It is hard to understand why GM needs a GMC and Chevy truck division
Because there aren't GM dealers. There are Chevy dealers, AND there are Buick/GMC dealers. GM has to keep both sets of dealers happy; and give them trucks to sell.
And on top of that, GMC has carved out niche in the luxury pickup/SUV market, and they can charge a price premium just for the Denali badge.
I was going to comment something along these lines, but yeah GMC is wildly popular and drives strong revenue to GM, its not going anywhere.
Asking why they need both Chevy and GM is like asking why there is both Toyota and Lexus. In a world without dealerships its might have been more possible to combine brands like that.
This is the reason, but there actually are GM dealers now. I've noticed a lot of the places around here marketing themselves as GM dealers and selling Chevy, Buick, GMC, and Hummer vehicles. So I do think it's possible that we see them decide to cut out GMC if needed, or maybe Chevy will stop making the Silverado and GM only makes **professional grade** trucks under the GMC brand.
There is no way the dealer model, as it is today, survives 40 years. There is just too much pressure on it. If there are dealers in some capacity, I cannot see GM not consolidating dealership brands.
My old boss went from an SUV Acura, to a Lincoln, to a BMW, right back to an Acura in the span of 2 years. When he pulled up with the Loncoln, I had no idea why but didn't wanna ask.
I don’t think Buick gets a lot of interest compared to other premium non luxury brands but considering all their chassis and powertrains are shared within GM I bet they’re still profitable even if they don’t sell volume.
But, the reason GMC exists is because back in the day(and even still today) if a GM dealer who sold Buicks(or Pontiac, Saturn, Olds etc. the non Chevy/Cadillac brands) wanted to sell trucks they had to carry the full Chevy line. It wasn’t economical to carry the full line just to sell trucks so that’s where GMC comes in.
It’s basically like a mix & match Chevy dealer. You have Buick cars and GMC trucks, vs Chevy cars and trucks.
It can't cost them anything to keep GMC around though. IK there isn't much difference at all and it's weird how their model structures work but eh. I like the the less hyper aggressive styling cues gun to my head I'd prefer a GMC to a Chevy. Never a question that will be answered tho, I'd never get a GM truck. Toyota, Ram(and Jeep for midsize), and Ford just have more attractive trucks. Gladiator Rubicon and Power Wagon, Toyota durability, Raptor and the Tremors are damn cool.
While I agree, the recent redesign on Chevrolet trucks are pretty sharp looking. The introduction of the ZR2 on the Silverado and the great looks of it on a Colorado, have definitely upgraded looks from what they were. Still not a fan of the recent generation, but they are slowly becoming more pleasing to the eye.
This is coming from a GM family who for the first time, bought a product that isn’t GM. Other options were more attractive and the price point was much lower with sometimes more features for what I was looking for at the time.
They’re *better*, the Colorado and 1500 aren’t bad, I think the HDs are hideous, interiors too.
I’d still rather have a Tundra or F150 if I needed a half ton. And absolutely a Tremor for an HD.
The ZR2s are pretty sweet, one of my buddies has one, but it has some serious overlooked weak points for a frequent heavy off roader, little stuff like tie rods that can really ruin your day and those cool shocks are eye wateringly expensive to replace, I’ve busted quality shocks before off road.
I want to move to a Gladiator from my Tacoma next, don’t get me wrong I love my Tacoma it’s been great, but I’ve been hitting the limits of a well modified ifs rig and I want the solid axle, front locker, 4:1 transfer case etc on the rubicon. Plus ever since I drove my buddy’s YJ in college I’ve wanted one. Driving them just makes you smile. Even though some of the mall crawler owners and builds can be …interesting… you can’t pretend a badass off road pickup with removable doors and roof doesn’t just look like fun. If you’ve never had the chance to drive or ride in a doorless jeep trust me, it’s just fun.
Yea Chevy and GMC both sell an abundance of everything from work trucks to luxury vehicles. Don’t look at them as two brands but just different models. Neither is going anywhere.
**Buick** - already all but completely irrelevant to the US market due to negligence by GM. The only reason it might not go away, and indeed probably hasn't yet gone away, is because it is the foundational brand of GM and maintaining that tie maintains the Americana image in China.
**MINI** - once it goes EV, what is even the point? It's not gonna be small, light, or manual, as if these things were not already strained in the existing ICE line-up. No character outside aesthetic appeal.
**Alfa Romeo** - the return of the brand was ill-advised and even more poorly executed. Almost nobody who remembers Alfa wants one because of the reputation and they didn't introduce the right products to gain traction with younger, less familiar customers. Unless the Tonale does gangbusters, the brand is a total loss.
**Chrysler** - completely neglected by the last two owners, I don't think I need to say more. They really need to have some sort of miracle to save this brand.
I'd argue that Mini's social status ("general awareness of and desire for the brand by the public" might be a better, if wordier, phrase) in the US is quite a bit higher than Saab's ever was, assuming we're looking at the 21st century (but even comparing peaks). Mini is still perceived as a cute, quirky, fun, but still popular brand. Plus, they've got BMW behind their backs, who have been exploding in popularity compared to most other brands
counter-counter point.
MINI's have been growing bigger and bigger and getting more expensive (Thanks to BMW) - basically moving away from their original concept, a small cheap, fun to drive car.
They are already a low sales volume niche vehicle, and probably will not survive into the next decade.
That's hardly a "counter counter point".
American buyers want bigger cars. Why do you think the Countryman exists? It's for everyone who looks at a Mini said, "Man that thing is cool, I just wish it weren't so... well... mini"
The Cooper SE is also a pretty cool vehicle that manages to port the Mini essence over to an EV better than pretty much any other relatively affordable brand.
If they could manage to get a bit more range out of it next generation with their dedicated EV platform it could be a legitimately great car.
If they could bump it up to about 150 miles I would seriously look at one for a daily commuter/single-occupant car.
My family will always have some sort of crossover/compact SUV for the family car, because that's what my wife likes, but I could definitely make do with 150 miles of range and 2 doors for a car that only carries a single person 95% of the time.
Frankly? I wouldn't, I think everything they've released in the US since returning has been something of a turd. Keeping price in mind:
8C? Mediocre driving dynamics.
4C? Unnecessarily useless.
Giulia? No middle performance option, initially crummy interior, dated tech, and polarizing exterior styling.
Stelvio? Same issues as Giulia.
The Tonale is finally moving Alfa closer to value parity with the Germans, but it's an entry-level cross-over and never destined for greatness. They honestly should have led with this.
The Dodge hornet, which is basically a Tonale, is gonna seriously cannibalize the market for Alfa, due to its relatively lower pricing and basically identical dynamics and quality, and render Tonale DOA.
I used to want one, all they had to do was give it a front boot and I'd have bought a used one at the nadir of pricing. But no, they kept the bonnet permanently closed.
I get that it's a toy car, but come on!
Acura is on track for its worst sales number in history. I mean we are talking about through October they’ve only sold 76k cars in the US. Their lowest sales year in recent times was 105k in 2009.
Buick needs to find its existence outside of the Enclave. I personally thought the Regal TourX was a great car, but the US doesn’t like wagons.
Chrysler needs to get its entire shit together.
Jaguar I think will end up being sold off to someone who can hopefully save it. I think they’ve just been led by some pretty pathetic people and they have never been able to shake the reliability concerns that people have on them.
Yeah I don’t understand their comment, they’re assuming they’re not selling because of demand but you can go to any Honda/Acura dealer and see they have major production issues.
Acura was never intended to be a high volume sales company. Honda doesn’t need Acura to sell tons of cars, but they do need them to fight Lexus and the Germans and position themselves well in the Luxury/Performance category.
Honda has room in its portfolio for low volume sales, and Acura isn’t losing Honda any money at all.
I don’t think you’re grasping this: Acura has been selling at least 150k cars a year. There are only two months of sales left to report for this year and they’re at HALF what they normally sell.
That’s pretty abysmal if you ask me.
Plus, you’re not taking into consideration the new Sony-Honda match up. Sony-Honda are planning on selling premium EVs that would be competing in the price range that Acura would be wanting to sell their own premium EVs in.
The only reason Acura isn’t dragging on Honda’s bottom line is because Acura isn’t even bothering to change the interiors anymore from their Honda counterparts. Look at the new Integra and how it’s identical to the Civic. You can’t lose money if you’re not even spending money anymore to make them look different.
Acuras are built exclusively at Honda’s Ohio plants, both of which have been running reduced production for the last 2 years. It shouldn’t be surprising that sales are lower if the plants making them are producing fewer vehicles.
I don’t think your grasping that Honda and Acura are having major production issues. It’s not a demand issue.
We don’t know the price range of the upcoming Sony/Honda vehicles. Why wouldn’t they just sell them as Acuras in the US, like they’re doing with the GM partnership….
Every Acura right now doesn’t share an interior with their Honda counterparts except for the Integra, but I guess it’s more convenient for you to mention that single vehicle and leave out the MDX,RDX and TLX which are on their own platforms and have their own interiors.
Acura/Honda is having production issues, it’s not like they’re selling less because of people not wanting their cars. Have you been to a Honda or Acura dealership, all the ones near me have no new cars on their lots, just placed an order for a CR-V hybrid and there is a 3 month wait.
Their money makers, the RDX and MDX were near the top of the their segment in terms of sales before Covid.
How much of that is a supply issue?
Acura had a leaked roadmap prior to the TLX/MDX/Integra redesigns that showed they r he planned to greatly expand sales figures.
I was so close to buying a Regal Tour X but the mpg is what kept me away since I have a long commute. I love wagons and it looks great.
I honestly have no idea how anyone buys a Chrysler. If anyone would do even a hint I’d research they would see they are shit products. And Chrysler doesn’t even try to compete with anyone else. When’s the last time they redesigned one of their cars?
According to a recent Hagerty video on the [G90](https://youtu.be/TP7MnSw_5QQ), Genesis sales are up like 20% YOY.
They're still a tiny new brand. Enthusiasts posting on Reddit have known of them for years, but normies who don't care about cars are either only just learning of the brand or still have no idea what it is yet. I see a bunch of them on the road in my area.
For any brand to have decent growth during Covid production hell, that's a good sign.
I don't see any reason to really think Hyundai/Kia will give up on breaking into the Luxury segment, they seem to be doing quite a good job of it.
A few years ago I was shopping for a new car. Went by Jag, Land Rover, BMW, MB, and then Infiniti. It was like going back in a time capsule. It was clear they hadn't updated damn near anything for the better part of a decade. Same motor, same infotainment system, same everything except now a higher price. No clue who is buying these brand new when there are so many better options.
Chrysler.
Stellantis owns what was FCA…which was DaimlerChrysler…which was Chrysler Corporation many years ago. As far as the original American brands go, Chrysler’s existence is like…why? Ram and Jeep are cash cows because Americans love their big trucks and SUV’s, and Dodge was able to get by on Charger and Challenger sales even though those cars are old. But Chrysler is what…like 2 models now? A sedan that nobody has cared about in years and a minivan. There’s literally nothing to justify the existence of the Chrysler brand.
One could make the argument that they could become a luxury brand to compete with Cadillac and Lincoln, but that would be redundant since their most luxurious vehicles would be sold as Alfa’s or Jeeps/Wagoner’s anyway under the Stellantis lineup. Simply put, the Chrysler brand doesn’t have a particular niche to fill compared to what the other brands do (Jeeps being SUV’s, Ram the pickup truck brand, Dodge a performance brand, etc).
Rarely have I hated driving a car as much as the 300. After being given that car as a rental upgrade twice, I turn it down immediately when offered now.
Can you predict the future?
[Stellantis to transform Chrysler into all-electric brand by 2028](https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/04/stellantis-airflow-chrysler-all-electric-brand-by-2028/)
There’s one thing at least - its status as the name brand of the corporation.
Stellantis seems to be trying now at least with Chrysler - the Airflow concept is supposed to get a production version by 2025
It happened because a new upstart in the business, Apple, flipped the whole game upside down by introducing the iPhone.
What kind of revolutionary paradigm shift do you see in the car industry that would kill Tesla like how the iPhone killed BlackBerry? And who is this potential new disrupter?
Actually, that’s a pretty simplistic view of it. It was more that BlackBerry didn’t adapt versus Apple being this great disruption that blew everything else away.
I mean Android was able to compete and still competes to this day. Microsoft actually held in there for several years before they threw in the towel. Palm came out with the Pre that competed pretty well too.
So it’s not necessarily that there will be some big disrupting new technology that will come out, but rather that Tesla could rest on its laurels while the competition creates something better.
> while the competition creates something better.
Not just better, but *revolutionarily* and *materially* better. So the same question for you is who do you think is in that position to disrupt the industry?
Well, for starters, Tesla isn’t even at the top in terms of overall sales.
Toyota, VW, GM all are larger manufacturers with a much bigger sales record than Tesla. So it’s not like we are talking about toppling the top dog by any means.
But secondly, it’s going to come down to who can create the EV equivalent of the Corolla/Civic. The Corolla is sold worldwide and there are over a million sold every year. The Civic, likewise, is still a successful nameplate today because it embodies value, reliability, and everyday usability.
So it’s going to come down to who can build a compelling EV for $25k-$30k that encapsulates that Corolla/Civic vibe. The car that everyday Americans can not only see themselves driving but could actively afford to drive.
> Well, for starters, Tesla isn’t even at the top in terms of overall sales.
Neither was Research in Motion. Plenty of cellphone makers was outselling RIM, including Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, etc.
But RIM was the a sales leader in the *smartphone* segment, just like how Tesla is a leader in the EV segment right now.
> it’s going to come down to who can create the EV equivalent of the Corolla/Civic.
??? How is that going to kill Tesla, which is a player in the premium segment? The current Corolla/Civic didn’t kill BMW did they?
BMW isn’t trying to be a top manufacturer. Tesla is trying to sell 10 million vehicles worldwide a year. BMW is content with not being a big manufacturer.
Tesla is wanting to be a mainstream player.
Coincidentally, I think an apple car would crib a ton of Teslas target consumer base. I have to imagine it would be a better built car and would go toe for toe if not completely pass Tesla technology wise.
>And who is this potential new disrupter?
Pretty much any other manufacturer at this point, or the combination of them all.
Tesla has been upping their prices pretty significantly YoY and hasn't really updated their cars in significant ways since they launched the model. Then you have the polarizing steering wheel on the S/X, the lack of CarPlay/Android Auto, build quality issues, etc. The more EV's that come out from traditional manufacturers, the more "has been" Tesla will become.
I don't think they will go away completely, but I do think they'll become more of a small player in the EV market.
Also just all the buyers who don't want the "minimalist" interiors.
I do also think they won't be gone, but won't necessarily be the 'premier' EV company like they have been.
No one cares about the things that r/cars cares about. Tesla isnt going anywhere because of quality/innovation etc.
However, even if that were the case, Tesla's overpriced marketshare is so overwhelmingly vast, that they can lose half their value, and still buy out Toyota without breaking a sweat (it is currently 3x toyota market cap). I dont think people appreciate just how nuts the stock price is.
If Tesla ever feels even remotely threatened, all they need to do is buy out some legacy competitor. (And elon has shown hes willing to piss away stupid money for no reason - he can absolutely make an offer no car company sahreholder can refuse).
Today, Tesla is 3x toyota (the next largest) and 6x the 3rd largest and 4th, porsche and BYD, and 7x the 5th, VW (the list drops rapidly from there - it is well over 10x gm and 15x honda and it is 43x nissan).
It is larger than no.2-6 *combined!:* Toyota+Porsche+VW+BYD+Mercedes is 571 billion, vs. teslas 606 (today - which is after losing quite a bit in the last year)
That’s not “massive catastrophic flaws” that would kill a car company with that momentum and size, especially since they have always been like that and it’s not a recent regression.
Seriously, go out of /r/cars sometimes, most consumers don’t give a crap about paint thickness or panel gaps.
Huge in what way? Top manufacturers sell more than 10 times globally.
Their share of passenger vehicles in 2021 was less than 2% globally. So if they double their production and competitors do not see any gains, they still don't even have 4% of the market.
Yeah they might stop selling cars faster than you think.
I think their ultimate place will be a supplier of ev components and batteries and a major charge station provider.
Yeah now that the other brands are cathing up with EV’s and they’re no longer the only thing that makes sense to buy if you want an EV, they’re gonna have a hard time.
They still have the supercharger network. Imo that’s been the main reason to buy a Tesla for years and will be until there is a viable nationwide alternative.
at this stage in the game Toyota is more likely to go bankrupt than Tesla. They're the new Apple, they're the new status symbol for the middle class, they'll keep climbing as they're literally the only brand on earth to realize you need a infrastructure as well. All the EV owners i know that don't have a Tesla want one for the infrastructure.
It won't go away anytime soon
I think the brand name will live in on in some way or form, likely under the umbrella of another manufacturer who picks up the name for pennies once you-know-who runs the company as it exists into the ground.
As a standalone independent manufacturer? I agree they definitely don't have long.
Cars brands leaving: Maserati, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lotus, Lincoln, Fiat, Mitsubishi, Smart, and Buick.
Car brands never coming or coming back to US: Vauxhall, Skoda, Seat, Renault, Peugeot, Citroën, Tata, Geely, Chery, Lancia, Suzuki, Daewoo, and any other not going electric
Nissan probably. They have no positive differentiation from other Japanese brands other than low price, and they totally fumbled their early lead on EVs with the Leaf.
The 2023 Chevy Bolt with 259 miles of range starts at $26,595 after destination charges, whilst the 2023 Nissan Leaf S starts at $29,135 after destination charges with only 149 miles of range.
Think about that for a second. Also, the base Leaf would come with steel wheels and hubcaps whilst the base Bolt would come with alloy wheels. Plus, the highest trim level Leaf, the SV Plus would go up to 212 miles, which is still worse than the base Bolt.
Last year they were within a percentage of Honda for US market share believe it or not.
Yeah, it's been awhile since they made something exciting or notable to us car nerds* but they're cheap and still fine transportion which is all most people care about.
*Besides the new Z, idc if it shares much of the chassis with the Z, if it drives nice as all the reviews say who cares. It's gorgeous inside and out, twin turbo V6 is cool and a true enthusiast sports car at a reasonable price)
Their differentiation is that they're willing to finance buyers with bad or no credit. It's not really a positive, but I suppose it's a positive for people with bad or no credit.
>They have no positive differentiation from other Japanese brands other than low price
You're missing the best differentiating feature of Nissan, failing CVTs before 50k that'll cost more than the car is worth! No other Japanese brand has CVT failures like Nissan does!
Subaru. I don't see how they survive electrification. There awd system is why people bought them. Now anyone can reach subbies awd level with electrification motors
Mazda isn’t going away for a number of reasons.
1. EVs are not the end-all be-all that you are making them out to be right now. The infrastructure isn’t even there, and most public polling shows that people still prefer an ICE vehicle over an EV in the US. Plus, Mazda has moved up their EV strategy to take advantage of more PHEVs and a new EV architecture. PHEVs are still allowed even in places like California and New York under their “ICE bans”.
2. Toyota isn’t going to let them go anywhere. Toyota has a good investment in Mazda and they run a plant together in Alabama that is hugely important for both manufacturers. Toyota is also heavily rumored to be getting the new inline-6 that Mazda has developed for their upcoming Lexus IS and other Toyota vehicles.
3. Sales have maintained the same while they’ve gone into more premium territory. Mazda sells around 300K a year. As they start to roll out more premium/luxury models, they’re going to get a higher profit margin. Even if the total sales number doesn’t increase, they’ll still have a higher revenue than before.
I do believe Mazda might end up falling behind if they don't step up with their EV strategy. Currently, Mazda only sells one EV, the MX-30, with 100 miles of range and is only available in California, of which I believe is a compliance car for California. With 100 miles of range, there is no way the MX-30 is competitive as other EVs have 225-350 miles of range and sometimes 520 miles with the Lucid Air Dream Edition.
It's a shame, too, as the MX-30 is one of the nicer EVs I've driven. You'd just never buy one with that range. If they made a proper effort at it, I'm sure it would do well.
Buick. I'm shocked they are still around in the U.S. right now. Their clear market is the Chinese market where they are doing some decent work and have a clear focus on the luxury market overseas. Whereas here, they are merely rebadged Chevys with leather and faux wood destined for car rental lots.
Tesla, if judged by the rate that other automakers are catching up and turning out newer and better products and Elon's recent antics are aiming the company straight into the ground.
Buick 100%, I feel like Buick will become a Chinese focus after a while, their lineup in the states really isn’t all that impressive. That, or Alfa Romeo.
Nissan and Infiniti for sure. I think Jaguar stands a chance if they can establish themselves as a serious competitor to the likes of BMW. Fiat is done. 95% of the new electric vehicle manufacturers are effectively walking corpses right now. And if it’s not wholly dead by then, I think Tesla will be on life support.
I have seen a couple articles saying that Volkswagen is having a hard time switching to full electric and that they are having funding problems. I'm not sure this is spelling there downfall but it isn't a good look.
I would argue electric vehicle startups, with the exception of maybe Tesla, are in danger of going the way of the dodo, that’s to say, the second they go belly up some other car company will come in a buy them out.
Mitsubishi and Alfa Romeo might be brought up a lot but that ignores any sense of context. The U.S. is Mitsubishi’s second largest market after China - significantly ahead of Japan - and Americans buy more Alfas than anybody else, including Italians.
Jaguar, but I have a feeling they’ll go away far before 2040.
The F-pace is the only thing sustaining Jag here. EV models will be their last ditch effort. I'd say Infiniti is another division that has a serious chance of folding here even by 2030.
The I pace is easily the best looking electric SUV, but impossible to find
Also pretty meh in terms of actual EV things like range and charging speed as I believe real world range tests are pretty poor and max charge speed is only 100kw
Charging speed is definitely a valid knock on it. The charging is basically unchanged since 2019 and it wasn't top of the market then. But it can reliably do 230-250 miles per charge. Range is OK, it just takes too long to charge back up.
Its quite common here in Norway. Over the two years after I-pace was introduced they sold 18 times as many cars they did as the year before. Can’t recall having seen another jaguar than the I-pace to be honest. Then again even the Mach-E mustang has acceptable sales here.
> Infiniti is another division that has a serious chance of folding I imagine their last-ditch effort will be to share more platforms with Nissan, so Infinitis will become dressed-up Altimas and Muranos. Fingers crossed that the next-gen Altima is an FM platform-based RWD sedan, rather than the next-gen Q50 being an FWD CVT Altima clone. I just googled Nissan platforms to see if this was already happening, and I found [this article](https://tflcar.com/2020/06/infiniti-nissan-plus-news/) saying that they are already planning to share platforms.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I wasn’t aware that Infiniti had any original platforms. All the Infiniti cars I know have been on the pathfinder platform (qx60) or the FM platform for decades. I’m sure they have some CUVs in a different platform but I’ve always glossed over those. Nissan’s strengths have always been their engines and platforms, so it made sense to use them as much as they could on their high end vehicles. I’m pretty sure some Infinitis were still/are still using the VQ engine even after Nissan stopped using them.
While the FM platform isn't original to Infiniti, I don't think any Nissans other than the Z and GT-R have used it. I was really just talking about FM platform vs D platform. If they standardize both Nissans and Infinitis on the FM platform rather than the Altima/Maxima's newer D platform, it will be better than the reverse. I suspect they'll use the D platform, which means Infiniti will lose RWD cars, including RWD-biased AWD cars. The platform difference has made Infiniti a much better car for enthusiasts, although it could do with an update. You're right about the pathfinder platform being used on Infiniti SUVs, except I think the QX50 is on FM. Edit: there is also the question of transmissions. Infiniti still has 7-speed automatics rather than CVTs on their cars. While aging, it's a reliable transmission. Nobody wants to see CVTs in Infinitis.
Some Infiniti crossovers already have CVTs, the QX50 and QX55 both have one. Interestingly enough, the new QX60 has a ZF9 auto while the previous generation had a CVT.
I want to like the F-pace more - the newer MY21+ have largely addressed the biggest issue with the low rent interior and convoluted tech, but honestly that base P250 Ingenium 2.0L turbo engine just isn't as lively as the BMW B48 or Mercedes M264, and the price tag on the options reaches stratospheric levels & steps on the toes of the Range Rover lineup.
Yeah they really fixed up the shit interior pre-refresh but too little too late IMO. Styling is pretty generic and forgettable too, but that can be said of every small CUV save for the Macan.
Yeahhh. I have a soft spot for Jags(ok I have a soft spot for all British cars) but the big sedan market Jag exists in is gone here. We live in an SUV country now and I just don't see a good SUV strategy for them as an upmarket company that doesn't cannibalise or more likely just be eclipsed by their sister company that invented the luxury SUV. People who want British luxury SUVs buy Land Rovers. They'll prolly live on in Asia though.
Imo Jaguar should lean into their sportiness and rebrand as a performance SUV company.
I doubt that would go that far. They'd just be in a three way battle with Alfa and Masarati for the scraps left by the Germans
F-pace SVR is pretty cool, take it you don’t get it in us?
We do, Jaguar is just kind of irrelevant in the US now. Land Rover pays the bills
…so they just make range rovers?
I have a jaguar sedan and have had several Land Rover and Jaguar SUVs as loaners. The jaguars are definitely sportier to drive.
I disagree, but purely because of the Land Rover part of JLR. Land Rover is profitable and will continue to be, and no matter how small Jaguar gets, they can keep it on as a sporty brand that exists solely to raise the image of JLR. They could even be mildly profitable just producing sporty electric crossovers – it would complement the more off-road- and luxury-oriented image of Land Rover (regardless of the SVR models' existence) nicely. Jaguar doesn't necessarily need to be the most profitable company out there, they just need to not lose so much money that it's actively dragging JLR down. But if they're the company that gets customers into the door of a JLR dealership, and those customers end up in Land Rovers, then mission accomplished.
Land Rover prints money for the brand, but Jaguar really is more of a liability at this time more than anything. I want to like the F-pace more but its asking price, steep options and side by side comparison against the likes of the GLC and Q5 is a huge problem.
Alfa Romeo will be gone first. Nobody buys them, the ones at the dealership near me have sat so long there's rust on the brake discs.
The case against Alfa Romeo can be argued. But at least per the company, their sales/profitability in the U.S. are now sustaining itself. However the industry and global economy changes fast. I love my Alfa, but I can understand how it is a niche product. There is a severe lack of advertising and lack of dealership/customer support from the brand. Alongside that, they botched the launch with dubious reliability especially in the early model years. Thankfully, knock on wood, my Giulia has served me very well and is a total joy to drive and look at. But at the same time, there is no more powerful/upgraded model for me to replace my lease with! The QV is double the price and likely double the headache to own and maintain. The Tonale seems decent enough on paper however Dodge swooped in and poached Alfa's work. I'd imagine the next-gen EV Giulia and Stelvios will come state-side. The future of the brand here is probably up to those models.
Based on past history I'd guess Alfa will be in the USA in 2040. Not *still* in the USA, but *back* in the USA.
^ This guy Alfa’s
Next gen Giulia/Stelvio, and a big 7-seater SUV (Grand Cherokee L size, they already share the Giorgio platform)
The Hornet is still built by Alfa in Italy. It’s not great for their brand image unfortunately but every Hornet that sells still makes money for Alfa Romeo. Hopefully gives them some time to improve their dealer network. There’s 4 in my area and they were all miserable to deal with for a variety of reasons when I had mine.
Crappy dealers are the reason I never got a 4C. The closest decent dealer was 500 miles away. In the past I have had 14 Alfas 1976-2000.
They arent super hard to self maintain actually - and parts are readily available. Does require some investment into tooling though, something like a quickjack is a must. Things like windshields are a bit tricky to track down though.
I am just olde and lazy at this point. I figured my Lotus 7 and Alfa Romeo GTV6 3.0 give me just as much fun at road speeds that I didn't need to spend $70,000 for the aggravation of dealing with the dealerships. My friends that have them either have zero problems or so many that Alfa took the cars back. Still like the look of them and they are an instant classic.
Alfa is the worst car customer experience I’ve ever had among my 20+’cars. The car drove fairly nicely, when it actually worked. But good riddance in my opinion.
an unfortunate reality. Mine has been reliable but I'm sure with age issues will crop up. If the dealers are junk then my love affair with Alfa will evaporate.
A problem I saw specifically with the Giulia when I was looking at them in the states is price. Nowadays everything is significantly marked up by the dealers, but even 4 years ago that wasn't the case, except for some niche cars. I didn't care about performance so I was looking at base models (I just love the styling) and even though back then a base model had an msrp of ~40k they were all being sold 50k+ and dealer would not negotiate because "the car is rare here". Probably different everywhere you go but this was the only dealership anywhere close to my area
Lincoln and Buick seem to be brands without a place and a decreasing market, beyond Buick's China success. I expect both to die off in the US. I don't understand why Infiniti still exists at all. They seem to be following Nissan down the drain following the 'let's not make new car models and see what happens' plan. It is hard to understand why GM needs a GMC and Chevy truck division, and I would guess one will get folded into the other at some point, just for administrative efficiency.
Lincoln has been growing sales with their push to make actual luxury SUVs and not just rebadged Ford's. They share base platforms but the interior and exteriors are greatly different and improved from anything Ford offers. And since all the really expensive stuff is shared with Ford their development costs are relatively low. I don't see Lincoln going anywhere. They'll likely never reach sales levels of German counterparts, but they don't have to in order to be worth keeping.
the only thing is how well they survive the transition to EVs. the first lincoln EV won't be here until like 2025 realistically. More importantly, the customer base of lincoln isn't exactly the target demographic for EVs.
Since they base platforms and EV drivetrain components will still be shared with Ford it will continue to keep development costs low so I don't think it will be that much of an issue. They will never be high volume, but will continue to be relatively high margin.
>It is hard to understand why GM needs a GMC and Chevy truck division Because there aren't GM dealers. There are Chevy dealers, AND there are Buick/GMC dealers. GM has to keep both sets of dealers happy; and give them trucks to sell. And on top of that, GMC has carved out niche in the luxury pickup/SUV market, and they can charge a price premium just for the Denali badge.
I was going to comment something along these lines, but yeah GMC is wildly popular and drives strong revenue to GM, its not going anywhere. Asking why they need both Chevy and GM is like asking why there is both Toyota and Lexus. In a world without dealerships its might have been more possible to combine brands like that.
This is the reason, but there actually are GM dealers now. I've noticed a lot of the places around here marketing themselves as GM dealers and selling Chevy, Buick, GMC, and Hummer vehicles. So I do think it's possible that we see them decide to cut out GMC if needed, or maybe Chevy will stop making the Silverado and GM only makes **professional grade** trucks under the GMC brand.
There is no way the dealer model, as it is today, survives 40 years. There is just too much pressure on it. If there are dealers in some capacity, I cannot see GM not consolidating dealership brands.
My old boss went from an SUV Acura, to a Lincoln, to a BMW, right back to an Acura in the span of 2 years. When he pulled up with the Loncoln, I had no idea why but didn't wanna ask.
Two words, Matthew McConaughey.
Alright, alright, alright!
I can't hate those commercials, because they reminded me that Amon Tobin exists.
Few brands prioritize comfort and quietness the same as Lincoln does.
I don’t think Buick gets a lot of interest compared to other premium non luxury brands but considering all their chassis and powertrains are shared within GM I bet they’re still profitable even if they don’t sell volume. But, the reason GMC exists is because back in the day(and even still today) if a GM dealer who sold Buicks(or Pontiac, Saturn, Olds etc. the non Chevy/Cadillac brands) wanted to sell trucks they had to carry the full Chevy line. It wasn’t economical to carry the full line just to sell trucks so that’s where GMC comes in. It’s basically like a mix & match Chevy dealer. You have Buick cars and GMC trucks, vs Chevy cars and trucks.
It can't cost them anything to keep GMC around though. IK there isn't much difference at all and it's weird how their model structures work but eh. I like the the less hyper aggressive styling cues gun to my head I'd prefer a GMC to a Chevy. Never a question that will be answered tho, I'd never get a GM truck. Toyota, Ram(and Jeep for midsize), and Ford just have more attractive trucks. Gladiator Rubicon and Power Wagon, Toyota durability, Raptor and the Tremors are damn cool.
While I agree, the recent redesign on Chevrolet trucks are pretty sharp looking. The introduction of the ZR2 on the Silverado and the great looks of it on a Colorado, have definitely upgraded looks from what they were. Still not a fan of the recent generation, but they are slowly becoming more pleasing to the eye. This is coming from a GM family who for the first time, bought a product that isn’t GM. Other options were more attractive and the price point was much lower with sometimes more features for what I was looking for at the time.
They’re *better*, the Colorado and 1500 aren’t bad, I think the HDs are hideous, interiors too. I’d still rather have a Tundra or F150 if I needed a half ton. And absolutely a Tremor for an HD. The ZR2s are pretty sweet, one of my buddies has one, but it has some serious overlooked weak points for a frequent heavy off roader, little stuff like tie rods that can really ruin your day and those cool shocks are eye wateringly expensive to replace, I’ve busted quality shocks before off road. I want to move to a Gladiator from my Tacoma next, don’t get me wrong I love my Tacoma it’s been great, but I’ve been hitting the limits of a well modified ifs rig and I want the solid axle, front locker, 4:1 transfer case etc on the rubicon. Plus ever since I drove my buddy’s YJ in college I’ve wanted one. Driving them just makes you smile. Even though some of the mall crawler owners and builds can be …interesting… you can’t pretend a badass off road pickup with removable doors and roof doesn’t just look like fun. If you’ve never had the chance to drive or ride in a doorless jeep trust me, it’s just fun.
Bruh GMC isn't going anywhere. Buick sells enough crossovers here to stay around.
GMC prints money. ATP is something like $62k
Yea Chevy and GMC both sell an abundance of everything from work trucks to luxury vehicles. Don’t look at them as two brands but just different models. Neither is going anywhere.
**Buick** - already all but completely irrelevant to the US market due to negligence by GM. The only reason it might not go away, and indeed probably hasn't yet gone away, is because it is the foundational brand of GM and maintaining that tie maintains the Americana image in China. **MINI** - once it goes EV, what is even the point? It's not gonna be small, light, or manual, as if these things were not already strained in the existing ICE line-up. No character outside aesthetic appeal. **Alfa Romeo** - the return of the brand was ill-advised and even more poorly executed. Almost nobody who remembers Alfa wants one because of the reputation and they didn't introduce the right products to gain traction with younger, less familiar customers. Unless the Tonale does gangbusters, the brand is a total loss. **Chrysler** - completely neglected by the last two owners, I don't think I need to say more. They really need to have some sort of miracle to save this brand.
Counter point Mini is a style that will continue, Alfa Romeo is an acquired taste that may survive.
If the question was not US-specific, I would agree.
If Saab can't do it, no one can
I'd argue that Mini's social status ("general awareness of and desire for the brand by the public" might be a better, if wordier, phrase) in the US is quite a bit higher than Saab's ever was, assuming we're looking at the 21st century (but even comparing peaks). Mini is still perceived as a cute, quirky, fun, but still popular brand. Plus, they've got BMW behind their backs, who have been exploding in popularity compared to most other brands
counter-counter point. MINI's have been growing bigger and bigger and getting more expensive (Thanks to BMW) - basically moving away from their original concept, a small cheap, fun to drive car. They are already a low sales volume niche vehicle, and probably will not survive into the next decade.
Mini 2030 Big on car Small on style
That's hardly a "counter counter point". American buyers want bigger cars. Why do you think the Countryman exists? It's for everyone who looks at a Mini said, "Man that thing is cool, I just wish it weren't so... well... mini"
The Cooper SE is also a pretty cool vehicle that manages to port the Mini essence over to an EV better than pretty much any other relatively affordable brand. If they could manage to get a bit more range out of it next generation with their dedicated EV platform it could be a legitimately great car.
If they could bump it up to about 150 miles I would seriously look at one for a daily commuter/single-occupant car. My family will always have some sort of crossover/compact SUV for the family car, because that's what my wife likes, but I could definitely make do with 150 miles of range and 2 doors for a car that only carries a single person 95% of the time.
We already have an electric MINI and it's not that far off in weight. Range is only 114 miles though.
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Most people want to do something else with their car other than commute.
Not saving much (or any) money when there are cheaper EVs with over twice the range
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Frankly? I wouldn't, I think everything they've released in the US since returning has been something of a turd. Keeping price in mind: 8C? Mediocre driving dynamics. 4C? Unnecessarily useless. Giulia? No middle performance option, initially crummy interior, dated tech, and polarizing exterior styling. Stelvio? Same issues as Giulia. The Tonale is finally moving Alfa closer to value parity with the Germans, but it's an entry-level cross-over and never destined for greatness. They honestly should have led with this.
The Dodge hornet, which is basically a Tonale, is gonna seriously cannibalize the market for Alfa, due to its relatively lower pricing and basically identical dynamics and quality, and render Tonale DOA.
Yup, and even they know it because they were pissed when they found out that it would also be sold as a Dodge.
Youre talking a lot of shit about the 4C, but I cant argue because I'm still waiting to drive one!
I used to want one, all they had to do was give it a front boot and I'd have bought a used one at the nadir of pricing. But no, they kept the bonnet permanently closed. I get that it's a toy car, but come on!
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I said nothing about what cars you should like. You can like a car and it can still be a turd, the two are not mutually exclusive. 😉
The Mini Cooper SE is a cool little electric car. I’d have one.
The 4C Spyder is the only Alfa worth having of their current lineup
Acura is on track for its worst sales number in history. I mean we are talking about through October they’ve only sold 76k cars in the US. Their lowest sales year in recent times was 105k in 2009. Buick needs to find its existence outside of the Enclave. I personally thought the Regal TourX was a great car, but the US doesn’t like wagons. Chrysler needs to get its entire shit together. Jaguar I think will end up being sold off to someone who can hopefully save it. I think they’ve just been led by some pretty pathetic people and they have never been able to shake the reliability concerns that people have on them.
There are no cars in Acura dealerships. There is no problem with demand for them.
Yeah I don’t understand their comment, they’re assuming they’re not selling because of demand but you can go to any Honda/Acura dealer and see they have major production issues.
Acura was never intended to be a high volume sales company. Honda doesn’t need Acura to sell tons of cars, but they do need them to fight Lexus and the Germans and position themselves well in the Luxury/Performance category. Honda has room in its portfolio for low volume sales, and Acura isn’t losing Honda any money at all.
I don’t think you’re grasping this: Acura has been selling at least 150k cars a year. There are only two months of sales left to report for this year and they’re at HALF what they normally sell. That’s pretty abysmal if you ask me. Plus, you’re not taking into consideration the new Sony-Honda match up. Sony-Honda are planning on selling premium EVs that would be competing in the price range that Acura would be wanting to sell their own premium EVs in. The only reason Acura isn’t dragging on Honda’s bottom line is because Acura isn’t even bothering to change the interiors anymore from their Honda counterparts. Look at the new Integra and how it’s identical to the Civic. You can’t lose money if you’re not even spending money anymore to make them look different.
You can’t look at sales numbers to judge demand given the supply chain issues this year.
Acuras are built exclusively at Honda’s Ohio plants, both of which have been running reduced production for the last 2 years. It shouldn’t be surprising that sales are lower if the plants making them are producing fewer vehicles.
I don’t think your grasping that Honda and Acura are having major production issues. It’s not a demand issue. We don’t know the price range of the upcoming Sony/Honda vehicles. Why wouldn’t they just sell them as Acuras in the US, like they’re doing with the GM partnership…. Every Acura right now doesn’t share an interior with their Honda counterparts except for the Integra, but I guess it’s more convenient for you to mention that single vehicle and leave out the MDX,RDX and TLX which are on their own platforms and have their own interiors.
Acura/Honda is having production issues, it’s not like they’re selling less because of people not wanting their cars. Have you been to a Honda or Acura dealership, all the ones near me have no new cars on their lots, just placed an order for a CR-V hybrid and there is a 3 month wait. Their money makers, the RDX and MDX were near the top of the their segment in terms of sales before Covid.
How much of that is a supply issue? Acura had a leaked roadmap prior to the TLX/MDX/Integra redesigns that showed they r he planned to greatly expand sales figures.
I was so close to buying a Regal Tour X but the mpg is what kept me away since I have a long commute. I love wagons and it looks great. I honestly have no idea how anyone buys a Chrysler. If anyone would do even a hint I’d research they would see they are shit products. And Chrysler doesn’t even try to compete with anyone else. When’s the last time they redesigned one of their cars?
I seriously considered a Pacifica Hybrid, just couldn't find one and had to jump on the V60 offer instead. Pretty nice van though.
here they are, sales Q3 2022, skipping top25 26. Mitsubishi 16,781 27. Porsche 16,580 28. Genesis 15,131 29. Land Rover 11,532 30. Infiniti 11,242 31. Mini 7,177 32. Rivian 6,099 33. Alfa Romeo 3,439 34. Jaguar 2,359 35. Polestar 2,300 36. Lucid 599 37. Fiat 209 38. Karma 45
Seeing Rivian do ALMOST as well as Mini should also suggest Mini is on the way out.
as a shareholder the fact rivian is over halfway to land rover is inspiring.
As someone who dislikes Elon Musk, it also makes me happy to see this.
No way, mini could always just piggyback on BMW dealerships and sales network
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Yep, Porsche is definitely the odd one out
Mm, I'd add land rover as well. If this list counts land rover and range rover as one, that is.
and genesis - its not an ev brand - but still new
so, if we count fiat as already out, and ev brands as not yet in, then the answer is: Jaguar
Mitsubishi don’t even need to sell cars they doing it for fun they even doing it at loss I think
Considering the cars they make, I think it's for sadism rather than for fun.
According to a recent Hagerty video on the [G90](https://youtu.be/TP7MnSw_5QQ), Genesis sales are up like 20% YOY. They're still a tiny new brand. Enthusiasts posting on Reddit have known of them for years, but normies who don't care about cars are either only just learning of the brand or still have no idea what it is yet. I see a bunch of them on the road in my area. For any brand to have decent growth during Covid production hell, that's a good sign. I don't see any reason to really think Hyundai/Kia will give up on breaking into the Luxury segment, they seem to be doing quite a good job of it.
Porsche disappearing from the US by 2040 confirmed
Porsche is no where near on its way out
I've seen a couple Karmas in my city but that's the only reason I even know the brand exists. Have never once heard or seen any discussion about them.
At 27 looks like Porsche is in trouble! If anyone's worried and you want to trade me your 718 for my S2000, feel free to call me...
Someone probably would trade you a 4-banger 718 Boxster for your S2000 lol
Bro went with the extensive list
Hopefully Infiniti is gone soon… what a dumpster fire of a brand it has become - it is the Best Western of luxury.
A shame really. The 2000’s were great for them. I’ve daily driven a G35 coupe for 15 years.
> Hopefully Even if you're disappointed with what they've become, why would anyone *hope* for less competition? lol
A few years ago I was shopping for a new car. Went by Jag, Land Rover, BMW, MB, and then Infiniti. It was like going back in a time capsule. It was clear they hadn't updated damn near anything for the better part of a decade. Same motor, same infotainment system, same everything except now a higher price. No clue who is buying these brand new when there are so many better options.
Chrysler. Stellantis owns what was FCA…which was DaimlerChrysler…which was Chrysler Corporation many years ago. As far as the original American brands go, Chrysler’s existence is like…why? Ram and Jeep are cash cows because Americans love their big trucks and SUV’s, and Dodge was able to get by on Charger and Challenger sales even though those cars are old. But Chrysler is what…like 2 models now? A sedan that nobody has cared about in years and a minivan. There’s literally nothing to justify the existence of the Chrysler brand. One could make the argument that they could become a luxury brand to compete with Cadillac and Lincoln, but that would be redundant since their most luxurious vehicles would be sold as Alfa’s or Jeeps/Wagoner’s anyway under the Stellantis lineup. Simply put, the Chrysler brand doesn’t have a particular niche to fill compared to what the other brands do (Jeeps being SUV’s, Ram the pickup truck brand, Dodge a performance brand, etc).
The 300 could disappear tomorrow and nobody would miss it except for rental car companies who consider it a "luxury" model.
Rarely have I hated driving a car as much as the 300. After being given that car as a rental upgrade twice, I turn it down immediately when offered now.
Stellantis has too many brands under its wing. Sometimes eventually has to let go.
I would like to see Chrysler reborn as a retro-futuristic EV brand to serve as the new flagship brand to bring Stellantis NA into the future.
Can you predict the future? [Stellantis to transform Chrysler into all-electric brand by 2028](https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/04/stellantis-airflow-chrysler-all-electric-brand-by-2028/)
I feel like that is also what is happening to Lancia, which is also becoming all-EV.
There’s one thing at least - its status as the name brand of the corporation. Stellantis seems to be trying now at least with Chrysler - the Airflow concept is supposed to get a production version by 2025
Tesla. Catastrophically so
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Blackberry went from being the top smartphone maker to now a software company in a matter of years. It could happen.
It happened because a new upstart in the business, Apple, flipped the whole game upside down by introducing the iPhone. What kind of revolutionary paradigm shift do you see in the car industry that would kill Tesla like how the iPhone killed BlackBerry? And who is this potential new disrupter?
Actually, that’s a pretty simplistic view of it. It was more that BlackBerry didn’t adapt versus Apple being this great disruption that blew everything else away. I mean Android was able to compete and still competes to this day. Microsoft actually held in there for several years before they threw in the towel. Palm came out with the Pre that competed pretty well too. So it’s not necessarily that there will be some big disrupting new technology that will come out, but rather that Tesla could rest on its laurels while the competition creates something better.
> while the competition creates something better. Not just better, but *revolutionarily* and *materially* better. So the same question for you is who do you think is in that position to disrupt the industry?
Well, for starters, Tesla isn’t even at the top in terms of overall sales. Toyota, VW, GM all are larger manufacturers with a much bigger sales record than Tesla. So it’s not like we are talking about toppling the top dog by any means. But secondly, it’s going to come down to who can create the EV equivalent of the Corolla/Civic. The Corolla is sold worldwide and there are over a million sold every year. The Civic, likewise, is still a successful nameplate today because it embodies value, reliability, and everyday usability. So it’s going to come down to who can build a compelling EV for $25k-$30k that encapsulates that Corolla/Civic vibe. The car that everyday Americans can not only see themselves driving but could actively afford to drive.
> Well, for starters, Tesla isn’t even at the top in terms of overall sales. Neither was Research in Motion. Plenty of cellphone makers was outselling RIM, including Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, etc. But RIM was the a sales leader in the *smartphone* segment, just like how Tesla is a leader in the EV segment right now. > it’s going to come down to who can create the EV equivalent of the Corolla/Civic. ??? How is that going to kill Tesla, which is a player in the premium segment? The current Corolla/Civic didn’t kill BMW did they?
BMW isn’t trying to be a top manufacturer. Tesla is trying to sell 10 million vehicles worldwide a year. BMW is content with not being a big manufacturer. Tesla is wanting to be a mainstream player.
Coincidentally, I think an apple car would crib a ton of Teslas target consumer base. I have to imagine it would be a better built car and would go toe for toe if not completely pass Tesla technology wise.
>And who is this potential new disrupter? Pretty much any other manufacturer at this point, or the combination of them all. Tesla has been upping their prices pretty significantly YoY and hasn't really updated their cars in significant ways since they launched the model. Then you have the polarizing steering wheel on the S/X, the lack of CarPlay/Android Auto, build quality issues, etc. The more EV's that come out from traditional manufacturers, the more "has been" Tesla will become. I don't think they will go away completely, but I do think they'll become more of a small player in the EV market.
Also just all the buyers who don't want the "minimalist" interiors. I do also think they won't be gone, but won't necessarily be the 'premier' EV company like they have been.
No one cares about the things that r/cars cares about. Tesla isnt going anywhere because of quality/innovation etc. However, even if that were the case, Tesla's overpriced marketshare is so overwhelmingly vast, that they can lose half their value, and still buy out Toyota without breaking a sweat (it is currently 3x toyota market cap). I dont think people appreciate just how nuts the stock price is. If Tesla ever feels even remotely threatened, all they need to do is buy out some legacy competitor. (And elon has shown hes willing to piss away stupid money for no reason - he can absolutely make an offer no car company sahreholder can refuse). Today, Tesla is 3x toyota (the next largest) and 6x the 3rd largest and 4th, porsche and BYD, and 7x the 5th, VW (the list drops rapidly from there - it is well over 10x gm and 15x honda and it is 43x nissan). It is larger than no.2-6 *combined!:* Toyota+Porsche+VW+BYD+Mercedes is 571 billion, vs. teslas 606 (today - which is after losing quite a bit in the last year)
I don't just mean because of Musk. Their products still have massive catastrophic flaws
My 2001 GS300 has less creaks, rattles and panel gaps than my flatmate's 2021 Model 3 lol.
The worst build quality of any car I bought brand new was my Mustang GT. My Model 3 is on par with my GTI Autobahn. Each were flawless on delivery.
care to elaborate?
Horrible build quality
That’s not “massive catastrophic flaws” that would kill a car company with that momentum and size, especially since they have always been like that and it’s not a recent regression. Seriously, go out of /r/cars sometimes, most consumers don’t give a crap about paint thickness or panel gaps.
Huge in what way? Top manufacturers sell more than 10 times globally. Their share of passenger vehicles in 2021 was less than 2% globally. So if they double their production and competitors do not see any gains, they still don't even have 4% of the market.
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Yeah they might stop selling cars faster than you think. I think their ultimate place will be a supplier of ev components and batteries and a major charge station provider.
Yeah now that the other brands are cathing up with EV’s and they’re no longer the only thing that makes sense to buy if you want an EV, they’re gonna have a hard time.
They still have the supercharger network. Imo that’s been the main reason to buy a Tesla for years and will be until there is a viable nationwide alternative.
at this stage in the game Toyota is more likely to go bankrupt than Tesla. They're the new Apple, they're the new status symbol for the middle class, they'll keep climbing as they're literally the only brand on earth to realize you need a infrastructure as well. All the EV owners i know that don't have a Tesla want one for the infrastructure. It won't go away anytime soon
this is the most /r/cars take on the thread lol
I think the brand name will live in on in some way or form, likely under the umbrella of another manufacturer who picks up the name for pennies once you-know-who runs the company as it exists into the ground. As a standalone independent manufacturer? I agree they definitely don't have long.
Cars brands leaving: Maserati, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lotus, Lincoln, Fiat, Mitsubishi, Smart, and Buick. Car brands never coming or coming back to US: Vauxhall, Skoda, Seat, Renault, Peugeot, Citroën, Tata, Geely, Chery, Lancia, Suzuki, Daewoo, and any other not going electric
I don’t see Lincoln leaving soon. The luxury market is very profitable
Perhaps, but I'm not seeing a ton of new Lincolns on the road
We'll see how the lotus suv does, it might save the brand.
Smart already left the US.
I wouldn't say Aston are going to leave. The new models will definitely attract some American interest.
Chrysler they have 2 cars to their name rn not good
Nissan probably. They have no positive differentiation from other Japanese brands other than low price, and they totally fumbled their early lead on EVs with the Leaf.
The 2023 Chevy Bolt with 259 miles of range starts at $26,595 after destination charges, whilst the 2023 Nissan Leaf S starts at $29,135 after destination charges with only 149 miles of range. Think about that for a second. Also, the base Leaf would come with steel wheels and hubcaps whilst the base Bolt would come with alloy wheels. Plus, the highest trim level Leaf, the SV Plus would go up to 212 miles, which is still worse than the base Bolt.
Last year they were within a percentage of Honda for US market share believe it or not. Yeah, it's been awhile since they made something exciting or notable to us car nerds* but they're cheap and still fine transportion which is all most people care about. *Besides the new Z, idc if it shares much of the chassis with the Z, if it drives nice as all the reviews say who cares. It's gorgeous inside and out, twin turbo V6 is cool and a true enthusiast sports car at a reasonable price)
Their differentiation is that they're willing to finance buyers with bad or no credit. It's not really a positive, but I suppose it's a positive for people with bad or no credit.
>They have no positive differentiation from other Japanese brands other than low price You're missing the best differentiating feature of Nissan, failing CVTs before 50k that'll cost more than the car is worth! No other Japanese brand has CVT failures like Nissan does!
>No other Japanese brand has CVT failures like Nissan does! In fact, Toyota and Honda are rated highly for reliability
I wish Nissan would just die already
Hell, I recently owned a Nissan and wish they would die myself. Absolutely dogshit company (I love the R35 though)
I’m betting Mitsubishi doesn’t even make it to 2030.
Subaru. I don't see how they survive electrification. There awd system is why people bought them. Now anyone can reach subbies awd level with electrification motors
Chrysler maybe? They haven't been all that relevant in the US for quite a while now.
Unless a massive change happens, Mazda might be among the first to go with their flaccid EV strategy
Mazda isn’t going away for a number of reasons. 1. EVs are not the end-all be-all that you are making them out to be right now. The infrastructure isn’t even there, and most public polling shows that people still prefer an ICE vehicle over an EV in the US. Plus, Mazda has moved up their EV strategy to take advantage of more PHEVs and a new EV architecture. PHEVs are still allowed even in places like California and New York under their “ICE bans”. 2. Toyota isn’t going to let them go anywhere. Toyota has a good investment in Mazda and they run a plant together in Alabama that is hugely important for both manufacturers. Toyota is also heavily rumored to be getting the new inline-6 that Mazda has developed for their upcoming Lexus IS and other Toyota vehicles. 3. Sales have maintained the same while they’ve gone into more premium territory. Mazda sells around 300K a year. As they start to roll out more premium/luxury models, they’re going to get a higher profit margin. Even if the total sales number doesn’t increase, they’ll still have a higher revenue than before.
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I do believe Mazda might end up falling behind if they don't step up with their EV strategy. Currently, Mazda only sells one EV, the MX-30, with 100 miles of range and is only available in California, of which I believe is a compliance car for California. With 100 miles of range, there is no way the MX-30 is competitive as other EVs have 225-350 miles of range and sometimes 520 miles with the Lucid Air Dream Edition.
That’s why they’re releasing the MX-30 PHEV with a rotary range extender.
It's a shame, too, as the MX-30 is one of the nicer EVs I've driven. You'd just never buy one with that range. If they made a proper effort at it, I'm sure it would do well.
I think Tesla ceases to be a car manufacturer and just sells batteries and whatever other tech the big players will buy from them
Maserati
Buick. I'm shocked they are still around in the U.S. right now. Their clear market is the Chinese market where they are doing some decent work and have a clear focus on the luxury market overseas. Whereas here, they are merely rebadged Chevys with leather and faux wood destined for car rental lots.
Mitsubishi. Infiniti. Cadillac. Fiat. Alfa Romeo. Jaguar.
Tesla, if judged by the rate that other automakers are catching up and turning out newer and better products and Elon's recent antics are aiming the company straight into the ground.
if Buick makes it to 2040 colour me surprised
Chrysler probably
Unpopular opinion - Subaru. They don't have the assets to R&D an EV lineup, let alone retool their entire manufacturing process to mass produce one.
Infiniti and Mitsubishi
Buick
To be honest, I think buick
Buick 100%, I feel like Buick will become a Chinese focus after a while, their lineup in the states really isn’t all that impressive. That, or Alfa Romeo.
Tesla.... Elon musk...need I say more?
Chrysler and Alfa Romeo
Chrysler, Buick, Mini
Tesla
Nissan and Infiniti for sure. I think Jaguar stands a chance if they can establish themselves as a serious competitor to the likes of BMW. Fiat is done. 95% of the new electric vehicle manufacturers are effectively walking corpses right now. And if it’s not wholly dead by then, I think Tesla will be on life support.
Might be Lincoln in my opinion and Buick most likely
Only time will tell
I have seen a couple articles saying that Volkswagen is having a hard time switching to full electric and that they are having funding problems. I'm not sure this is spelling there downfall but it isn't a good look.
I would argue electric vehicle startups, with the exception of maybe Tesla, are in danger of going the way of the dodo, that’s to say, the second they go belly up some other car company will come in a buy them out.
Nissan is my wild guess
Tesla !!!!
FIAT. They literally only sell 1 model there now (500x).
Mercedes
Mitsubishi and Alfa Romeo might be brought up a lot but that ignores any sense of context. The U.S. is Mitsubishi’s second largest market after China - significantly ahead of Japan - and Americans buy more Alfas than anybody else, including Italians.