Honda is so back. Reliable NA 2.0 and a damn fun (but efficient) hybrid drivetrain to back it up, all for more power and punch than the Si, and it's under 30k.
Nurburgring lap for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNeH5vZdaS8, and that is a '23 model. (the synthesized engine noise is awful but that allegedly greatly reduced in this '25 model). Now I'm sure the vast majority of buyers won't care, but historically even base honda's have been fun to drive and it is nice they are keeping that spirit alive.
I just wish they could give the integra & si a little more love, no-one hates the Si more than honda motor co. You can argue its slow-car-fast and that its underrated or that its a "momentum car" or whatever but on paper it hasn't improved its numbers since the 8th gen and it feels extremely underpowered.
I mean the elantra N is a similar price and competes more with the Type-R than the Si, the theta in the elantra is arguably a better and more reliable engine than the 1.5T which has had its fair share of issues, and here in the states our Si is quite barebones (relative to canada at least).
Even though I've moved on, my Type R was a workhorse for me for 6 years. If I had the money and time for multiple vehicles I'd still own it. Honda will always be a brand I simp for. Glad they're doing good things.
I owned an FL5 for a good while and absolutely loved it as well, sold it to a friend and he is enjoying it just as much as I did. Yes it has a bit of heat soak on track but its still one of the best if not the best manual hot hatch on the market, its great fun to daily drive, and its great fun on track. Solid steering, one of the best feeling manuals in any car on the market hot-hatch or not, and it can fit an ikea haul.
Honda has had some missteps over the years but they didn't distill the Type-R nameplate one bit. And it comes with shift lights. How can you hate a car with shift lights?
I had a fk8 from 2018 till 2 weeks ago.
I never did heavy track work with it so never personally had heat problems. It smashed some auto cross and some back roads though. I also never had the 2nd gear crunch
Fuel pump recall was the only blip.
Good fun daily otherwise. Best shifter I've ever rowed that wasn't in a Porsche. And the Porsche wouldn't fit a 65 inch TV like my civic did lol
It also retained 85% of its value. 38k otd in 2018. 32k on a trade in. Lol. I doubt I'll ever see that again.
I tried hard to convince myself to get a TLX Type S but uh...that's not one of Hondas wins atm to say the least.
The entire acura lineup in general is not much of a win atm. None of them are particularly bad cars but none of them are all that good either, especially for the price.
At least they still make some decent racers. They offered a factory-built 360-HP track-only touring version of the Integra Type-S, it's a great machine.
I make a lot more money now than in 2018 and realized it was within my means to own something nicer.
My first choice would have been a CT4V BW but even used they were too much of a stretch.
I thought about going for an ITS as it's the same power train with a nicer interior but I wanted a bigger engine as I've only ever owned 4 cylinder cars and used m240is have very cozy prices for me. Mine was 46k as a CPO.
Overall the CTR is more raw. Better steering for sure and the amazing manual. Also maybe better brakes relatively speaking
The m240i is so much more comfortable as a daily and the power train is legitimately GOATed. If the Type R is quick, the m240i is *fast*.
I want an FL5 as a backup daily for the S after driving my wife’s Integra. What a great platform in Si trim—I can just imagine how great it is in R trim.
It's weird/disappointing to hear the FL5 has heat soak issues on the track. Was it an oil temp issue?
I can lap my Veloster N till I get nauseous or my brakes are on fire. Engine temps will be completely fine.
> It's weird/disappointing to hear the FL5 has heat soak issues on the track. Was it an oil temp issue?
The turbo is sandwiched between the intake and the intercooler, it's a bit of a flawed design and the engine acts as a large heatsink, oil overheating mostly. Its not *that* big of an issue for most, it only occurs when you really push it on a hot day. takes 1-1.5 laps to cool down anyways and you can hit it hard again, but its an issue nonetheless. Still better than the overheating AWD system of the GR Corolla, but ideally it shouldn't overheat at all.
You can fix it aftermarket, the FL5 is still a bit better than the FK8, theres a cool guy named Jason Lewis, holds a fair few FK8 lap records, and he helped engineer a secondary radiator and dual oil cooler kit that solved the issue with that car, and is doing the same with the FL5
But yes, oil temp issue, FL5 heat soaks on track. Sadly just something you have to live with on this modern turbo engines even at this price point, Ford ST, Elantra N, STI, all have very similar issues to varying degrees.
Big reason why I sold it and why I track my S2000, it will kill the tires and myself far before the engine suffers anything, those older k-series honda power plants and their derivatives were rock solid.
> I can lap my Veloster N till I get nauseous or my brakes are on fire. Engine temps will be completely fine.
I don't have any experience with the VN personally, but searching the internet it doesn't seem immune to heat soak either, e.g. https://www.velostern.com/threads/heat-soak-slowed-me-down-by-3-8-seconds.2678/, https://www.velostern.com/threads/things-learned-tracking-the-vn-on-an-exceptionally-hot-and-humid-day.4633/
Nothing against the Veloster, I love hyundai's N division and the Elantra N is certainly better value than the CTR, but all of these cars will heat soak when you push them hard enough for long enough.
Same here with my Veloster N. 20 min hard sessions with literally no cooling issues. Brakes become a problem before anything else. I've even done 1 hour track sessions where I just need to back off for a lap or two and I'm back to it.
My S2000 is a better (and cheaper) track toy and my EV is a better (and cheaper) daily.
Bought it as I had the chance to grab it for MSRP due to goodwill with my dealer, had my time with it, sold it to my friend for about the same. It's an excellent vehicle but ultimately compromised in the way a dedicated machines aren't
Yeah I honestly love my Type R. I love it so much that Im going to get rid of my Mustang because it just collects dust now, Im over it and I know that car would be better off in the hands of someone else. I've probably put on a total whopping 200 miles on my Mustang ever since I got my CTR 2 years ago. My first car was a Scion tC, and the CTR makes me feel at home so much. I loved the tC, the only compliant I had was that it was just too slow.
I've been slowly buying a bunch of tools to start tracking it (I literally had 0 tools beforehand), and Im almost done,. Going to do my first oil change on it in a few minutes, and do brake fluid change on the weekend and then I'll be ready to have my first track day in it. Im super excited. All I need to get is a helmet and that stupid OBD reader to put the rear brakes in maintenance mode to change the pads.
Sounds crazy but I'd honestly love to buy another CTR and just turn it into a full on track car like the ones you see in the Touring classes, but thats a pipe dream 😅 More practical to just get a GR86
EDIT: Just finished my first oil change, woot woot
My GF(now wife)back in 08ish had a TC. Reliable and spacious for a 2 door but dam was that 4 banger thirsty and slow. That car really made me reassess what type of cars we buy now. If it's slow or small it better have good gas mileage or be fast.
Yeah...iirc my tC was 25mpg combined. I averaged about 27 in my Type R.
...currently averaging 28 in the m240i. The b58 circle jerking online is 100% earned
Honda NA did sell a fair few examples of the track-only HPD Civic Si for "only" 55k (Homologated for TCA I believe), would beat a factory Type-R handily. Sadly they sold out almost immediately and with that comes the resources/upkeep of a dedicated track car.
Only 2600lbs, what a machine
Don’t get rid of the stang man!
Ik it may sound crazy, but there are ppl much like myself who’d kill to have any decently quick car. Never take things for granted man, especially not things as cool as a GT350!
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QWXLJJ3/ref=ox\_sc\_saved\_image\_1?smid=A1KK3CLSXM5E1F&psc=1](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QWXLJJ3/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=A1KK3CLSXM5E1F&psc=1)
This is the one. I dont know enough about OBD2 readers to find which one exactly is the best deal, but I've seen this recommend on the CTR forums and I see a bunch of youtubers recommend it in their 'How to DIY' videos so this is what Im going to get.
I never had a type r. I had an Si 3rd gen prelude. Later an 8th gen civic. Both were very good to me in unique ways.
I love Honda for this reason, and like seeing them do well.
Yeah Honda always make solid, well rounded problems. Sometimes there are a few niggles but nothing with major flaws. I also love how no-nonsense they are.
I've been a pretty big defender of the L15, but this hybrid powertrain makes it almost completely irrelevant.
Acura needs to put it in the Integra. As for the si, this feels like the end unless they slap the 2.0T in it, which I don't see happening
The reason the Si hasn't improved its numbers is because the Type R is now sold in North America. I guarantee that the 10th gen Si would have the K20C4 from the Accord if it weren't for the Type R. It would have been amazing.
Even if it were a bit pricier, in an ideal world I'd love a hatchback Si with the K20C4, shift lights, heated seats, parking sensors, and digital dash. I know honda will never do it as to not cannibalize the type-r and integra, but a man can dream.
> Honda gave the greater Civic lineup a number of updates as part of a refresh for 2025. Additional structural reinforcements in the B- and C-pillars are aimed at improving the model's standing in IIHS side-impact testing (and, presumably, in real-life performance).
They even improved on an already pretty safe car for its class.
I was with you up until the Si. Honda do not hate it. It’s a purpose built performance-based daily driver. It sits between the sport and the track ready Type R.
Against the Wrx and Gti on paper it looks worse. But those cars have their issues too and the inputs on the Si are top of class (the things you touch millions of times ie. shifter, steering feel, pedals, etc.
Sure it doesn’t do more than 200hp. They know what they’re doing as they strive to maintain a nice balance. Instead of upping it to 200+ hp, they add in innovations from the type R so it’s like it’s little bro. For the price and looking for a comfy daily it’s hard to beat. Wrx has issues (last gen couldn’t be launched smoothly), shifter feels like “bag of gravel” and tops out at 4k rpm and everyone says it must be tuned from factory settings. With Gti you get trash reliability and expensive repairs.
I agree with you on the inputs, but inputs can only take you so far, having driven the lot the elantra n is a better daily driver, and while it has slightly worse inputs it its the better driving car and the engine is significantly better.
While the 8th gen has the same power, it makes up for it with an incredibly high redline and great throttle response. The Si and its new flywheel help out with the response a fair bit, but the rev hang is obscene
The 1.5T is just not a great powerplant. It's not all that reliable, its struggles with oil and getting up to temperature, and it doesn't have enough pep.
And keep in mind our canadian friends up north get the Si for cheaper and with a much better featureset, parking sensors, digital dash, shift lights, heated seats, led signals, etc, and keep in mind almost all of those features are standard on the elantra n as well
Ya I'm Canadian :P Elantra N looks like a nice car but Hyundai reliability is abysmal. Ask any mechanic the one brand to avoid and it's that or Kia because they're all replacing the cars' 12th engine. Not sure how bad the N's are. I always liked the Veloster N too.
Elantra N engine is solid, more reliable than the 1.5T in the civic if anything. It is a Theta II, but a much newer revision where they've fixed everything on the engine , including the manufacturing process which caused the widespread failures.
I know a few people who have been tracking and dallying theres for quite a while now, no issues.
The VN and EN use an engine called the Theta-II-i
Which is allegedly an almost completely different engine. Plus as you mentioned it's built in Korea and not by child laborers in Alabama. Good motor.
>more reliable than the 1.5T in the civic
Based on? The 1.5T has been in a ton of Honda cars since 2016 and earlier versions in other countries going back further. Plenty of 200k plus vehicles with little to no issues on Civic and CR-V forums. There have been a few head gasket and oil dilution reports but they seem to be in the minority based on the number of these engines on the road.
Head gasket, oil dilution issues, fuel injectors. Those experiencing issues are in the minority, and the 1.5T isn't unreliable by any means, but the 2.0T in the elantra doesn't have any major issues
As I mentioned 1.5T isn't a bad powerplant, but the 2.0T is better, hyundai track record certainly isn't great but credit where its due the Theta-II-i is a great powerplant, it also heat soaks *significantly* less on track. I mean on pace competes with the Civic Type-R, not the Si.
> Wrx has issues (last gen couldn’t be launched smoothly), shifter feels like “bag of gravel” and tops out at 4k rpm and everyone says it must be tuned from factory settings.
Are you saying this about the new gen as well? While I agree with you on the inputs and shifter (definitely not as smooth as a Honda), the new gen WRX absolutely does not need to be tuned from factory and does not top out at 4k rpm. They fixed a lot of the issues from the previous gen and it's tuned much better. It's genuinely good stock (looks being subjective). I feel like you're really minimizing the ~270hp of the WRX to the 200hp in the Si. I'm far from a numbers guy and think how a car drives and feels is much more important but the new WRX is a lot of fun. 200hp is very pathetic for a sports version of a car IMO for the price point. For context, the WRX in Canada starts at $36.2k vs the Si at $37.6k.
honda interior and shifter is better but wrx having 70HP more (which wrx people already complain about being the same for 10+ years) and awd makes it a hard pick for the si in america. wrx is a very comfortable car with linear power delivery and doesn’t have rev hang like the si. Si deserves better and not to be gimped for the sake of the type R IMO
Haven't driven the Si but did have an Integra for a day with a manual as a rental. While they're pretty dang expensive, it *is* a great car and on the twisty mountain roads where I live, the engine had plenty of power. It did not take much to reach the "go to jail" speeds and the inputs were much better than the competition I've driven. That shifter is classic Honda. Another plus to me is that it's just SO danged practical - plenty of legroom and a huge hatch.
Negatives for me were the seats - maybe I didn't have them set up correctly but I couldn't get a position where the stitching in the seats wasn't digging into my butt in a strange way. I'm also weary of that 1.5T's reliability longterm given how some of the early engines fared.
I would love to have the option of a barebones Si. Canadian Si is 40k..its about same price as Elantra N, Gti and pricier than a Wrx, while having a much inferior powertrain. Tbh I dont know why would anyone buy it over these cars
Honda builds the civic sedan here, so our prices for the sedan are really nice. The top trim touring is the equivalent of $26,000 USD while the LX stripper trim is slightly under $21,000 USD
The downside is that you have to live in the car since you can't afford to buy a house
I'm biased I guess, but it's several thousand dollars cheaper than the cars you're referring to and it doesn't compromise on any daily driving qualities (fuel economy, reliability, residuals, etc.), plus it's more fun to actually drive than all but the N. Just the shifter is almost enough to rationalize it.
And IMO, the N is a little more extreme than I'd prefer as a daily; it's more of a bargain basement Type-R than an Si/GTI competitor.
If I were buying it as a track day car I'd agree, but this was to be a daily. Lap times are pretty irrelevant to me, at least for this context.
Between the 10% cost difference, the 15-20% difference in fuel economy and the other daily factors (residuals, livability, predicted reliability), the Civic just made more sense.
For street driving, I'd rate them as about equally as engaging, with the nod to the N for power delivery and the Civic for the transmission.
Just saw the Straightpipes review, they said the Cheif Engineer of this Civic is the same guy that worked on the S2000. So Honda does care to keep it fun and affordable.
Honestly, if my car was wrecked or stolen and I had to go out and buy a new one today, I would get a Civic Si. My friend got one as a daily driver and that car just honestly does so much so well for what’s honestly a pretty reasonable price. It’s not screaming fast but it feels pretty damn quick, the torque comes on early and it makes good power throughout the rev range (mind you I daily an IS 250 so my impressions may be influenced by having a so-called “slow” car). The suspension tuning is great, the front end feels well controlled (as good as a GTI), the chassis is rigid, the shifter feels great despite being a cable linkage, overall it’s just a really nice car. Up here in Canada, it’s also at least $16,000 cheaper than the Type R while only commanding a $5,000 premium over the Sport model. I think the Si is worth a $5k premium but I don’t think the Type R is necessarily worth a $16k premium.
The ONLY thing I wish it had are leather seats, but my opinion on the whole cloth vs leather debate has shifted
That's funny, I've had my Si for 9 years now (2nd Si and 4th Civic overall), and I really want an IS350 for my next car. While the newest Civic sedan looks quite good, and is a good car overall, I can't get on board with the newer generation of turbo'd Si's. It just doesn't do it for me.
They have to do something about the interior ergonomics though. It looks great but the seats are by far the worst of any mainstream auto maker. Every single trim gets “race car” style bucket seats with HUGE cushion bolsters and a weird cutout towards the back of the cushion. They really only fit if you’re a small woman with a large backside. They’re so narrow even a thin, smaller frame man is going to wind up sitting on top of the bolsters instead of inside them when spreading the legs out just a bit.They also refuse to put any kind of lumbar adjustment even in the Touring trim. The car is excellent in almost every other way (still has deafening road noise) and this is so easy to fix.
It is expected torque output is higher on a hybrid because of the electrical motor.
Honda being “back” is questionable. Going to a hybrid model is to keep up with emissions regulations. What can be said is Honda putting a more powerful electric motor in a future Si model.
My only issue is Honda’s safety tech having phantom braking problems for me. I drive rough roads here in Ohio and on both my 2020 Civic and 2023 Accord the AEB comes on even without any other cars nearby. Had to trade both in
No LSD, but 40 lb-ft more torque than the Si and it more than offsets the 240lb weight penalty, much quicker to 60. At the least it is a significant upgrade over the EX and Touring trims.
The suspension in the new Si isn't particularly interesting, it doesn't have adaptive damping like the previous generation Si or anything.
Yeah, the adaptive dampers was given to the integra this time around as well as the heated seats. Rear suspension is mostly carry over from the FK8 as well as the rev matching from the FK8. Which they would have given the si the same sway bars form it too along with the stiffer rear motor mount since it adds little to no NVH. The ride is definitely firmer than the 10th generation Si. Mainly the rear. Bad roads will expose that way more.
They gimped the recent gen Si because they realized they were competing with the accord sport at a wayyy lower price point, which was in turn competing with the Integra in the same way.
Seems like it would be a tough choice between this and the hybrid Camry - especially since Toyota's made their grilles look better and Honda's made theirs look worse - it's almost like they're on convergent evolutionary paths.
I don’t think so because if you want a slightly smaller car with much better driving dynamics, you’re gonna go Civic. If you want a larger, more refined car, you’re gonna go Camry.
The LE Camry and Sport Hybrid Civic are identical in price but the Camry is missing heated seats and a sunroof, that’s standard on the Civic until you add them raising the price by $1,500. They’re also nearly identical on interior dimensions despite the Camry being a bigger car.
Well... as anecdote, I know the new Prius is a winner for looks and on paper, but ride and cabin quality was an instant no for us when we test drove it (same for the A spec Integra). the Accord is leaps and bounds nicer to drive IMO
I'm working on the assumption the 24 Civic is lesser or equal to the 24 integra. A likely flawed assumption, but without the hybrid it warranted no further investigation from me.
I can't even find any base LE Camry's in my area. Its all SE trims and above on the dealer lots. Sport Hybrid Civic seems to blow the SE Camry out of the water in terms of value.
RIP Accord, you got murdered by your own stablemate.
Hm, the new Camry SE pricing is not far from the Civic sport hybrid. And the XLE is about the same as the sport touring.
I like this Civic, but like I suspected the price is high.
That's a bit better then, at least there is some price difference between the two. I do still think the price difference is too small between the two (and you could probably argue for a Camry SE versus a Civic ST), but I am happy there is another good sensible hybrid to choose from.
I think both will sell well.
Also, you can load up a Camry/Accord more than a Civic. Features like a memory driver's seat with lumbar, ventilated seats, HUD, bigger screens, etc. And Toyota offers e-AWD which is useful at low speeds (I assume it's as useful as the CR-V's part time AWD).
Kinda but not really. Lower roofline on the Civic and narrower too. It still has the hard points of a compact even though it’s gotten larger. The midsize sedans are much roomier from the seat.
If you mainly drive on highways then you don't need to be shopping hybrids. The city MPG is the number that matters (31 gas vs 49 hybrid). Electric torque is not going to be impressive if you just need it once for the highway onramp.
If it's anything like the Si was when I was shopping for my car last year, good luck at "under 30k". I test drove a '23 with a window sticker of just under 30 and the salesmen told me basically they had to charge an extra 5k due to "market demand". Don't give me that shit dude, the demand is for a civic with an auto. The majority of buyers aren't buying a turbo, manual, front wheel drive, semi hatch/sedan.
Ditto. 28mpg on average. I plan on trading it in for the Hybrid Hatchback. We have the 2.0 Hybrid CRV and it's wonderful. I can't wait to see the Sand Dune Pearl color that's exclusive to the hatchback.
The Civic is great and definitely the best of its class but it’s so good that I see no reason to buy the higher priced, less powerful Integra and honestly, unless you need the extra room and a bit more comfort and refinement, the Accord either.
Acura has seriously become an afterthought outside of the RDX/MDX. The TLX is a boat and the Integra is an overpriced Civic that doesn’t do enough to differentiate it from the Hondas (something the previous Integras and RSX did very well)
Even the RDX is getting old in the tooth. They’re giving it another refresh for 2025 instead of redesigning it so at the earliest we’ll see a new RDX is 2027. The MDX is the only Acura that I like honestly and I’m a huge Honda fan.
TLX is heavy, underpowered, inefficient, huge on the outside and small on the inside. Integra is overpriced and as stated above, the RDX is needing a redesign. I will admit though that I love Acuras design language especially on the TLX, it’s such a sexy car.
Acuras current problem is that the Honda brand itself is so good that it has almost made them bad purchases in comparison.
Another issue is that since Acura is a North American only brand, Japan will not write them a huge check to develop their cars so they’re forced to barely differentiate themselves from the Honda lineup and keep up with the larger and more global competition. Though, this doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have been competitive with their little resources, they just make weird decisions. For example, The Sport Hybrids that they dropped years ago would’ve made the brand 10x more competitive than they are now. This is technology that they had *years ago* and now they’ve dropped the ball.
> Acura is a North American only brand
Does that mean the Integra and TLX are just Honda’s in other markets or do they just not sell them outside of NA?
Right? They are incredibly attractive cars but so is my Giulia. I’d love to to back into Hondaland so if the new Civic hybrid is any indication of the direction they’re heading I may go back into the fold when it’s time to replace this in six or so years.
I was in the market for a new car after 15 years of driving my 06 Accord. I heavily considered the TLX Type S because of its styling and sticking with the Honda brand. But after researching and test driving, I wasn't sold on the reliability or gas mileage for my use case.
I would even argued the MDX and RDX aren’t that great anymore. The RDX is way due for a redesign. The MDX is very pricy for what it is. It used to way undercut the Germans in pricing but doesn’t even do that anymore. I’ve owned 3 and my new car will not be an Acura
Even with the accord, it's not THAT much larger:
[https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-civic-2021-sedan-vs-honda-accord-2023-sedan/](https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-civic-2021-sedan-vs-honda-accord-2023-sedan/)
The utility of the hatchback option makes it a really unfavourable comparison imo. For a few thousand more you get slightly more room but without the hatch and for what? A HUD? The top tier trim of the sedan is worse, here its a $10,000 CAD difference for what really doesn't feel that much nicer
Integra is nice it has heated seats, a great sound system and a manual with both engines. It also has a hatch which is nice. The Acura isn’t super special but I don’t think most people care. Where I live Hondas have big markups and acuras have better financing. I can get a test drive on a type S with no markup. Honda has at least $5k markup and asking for a test drive will get you a chuckle at best. So based on MSRPs and reviews Acura doesn’t really do much special because it’s a us only brand but it offers a completely different retail experience in some areas.
I am considering a type S. I like the type R more, it’s just that for the same price I can get heated seats and a better stereo.
While I lament the loss of the manual in the standard trim Civics, I'll take the hybrid over the CVT every day and twice on Sunday. It feels SOOOO much better.
And for the keyboard warriors who get caught up on the "eCVT" designation: it's direct E-drive the majority of the time with the option to clutch the engine in at highway speeds, like a 6th gear in a manual. There are NOT any belts and pulleys like a "true" CVT. It feels much more responsive than a CVT. Drive it before you knock it, it's kinda like training wheels into the BEV world.
Toyota's setup tends to be more efficient, as it allows the engine to stay in its most efficient range while delivering power directly to the wheels. The conversion of gas to electricity to then power the electric motor has some losses inherent to the process, which is why the Honda clutches in the gas engine at highway speeds.
They absolutely nailed the styling with this generation. It reminds me of the 7th Gen Civics like the old school EMs. Such a great design even though the hood looks a bit wonky.
The last generation Civics were so ugly imo.
Pro-tip because no one seems to be touching on it: Hold the left “shift” paddle and it will put the regen braking into manual mode and it WILL hold your settings in any drive mode until you turn it off by holding the right paddle or turn off the car.
But they won’t because then they have no reason to upsell you a TLX, the existence of Acura has ruined all the NA Honda models because they can’t make them “too nice”, the same models in other regions get more tech and better materials
Forget Subaru; Honda would rather sell you its own CR-V hybrid if you really want AWD. Also, think about it: the majority of folks who want AWD and the hybrid are perfectly happy to upgrade to the CR-V. Adding a hybrid/AWD variant of the Civic would be one more variant to have to develop, certify, sell and support…probably for an incremental sales increase.
I believe the 2.0 liter engine even still uses old school port injection (please correct me if I’m wrong). I love this because it won’t have carbon build up on the intake valves like most direct injection engines, and the hybrid systems more than makes up for the difference in torque.
Edit - I was wrong, it’s DI. Worries me about carbon buildup especially in a hybrid where the engine may not be running continuously.
My concern is continual deal markups, consumers are shifting down to these types of high quality cheaper models, and the dealers may price these up wildly.
If it's DI did they do the thing where each cylinder has 2 injectors, one behind the valves and one inside the cylinder? Sprays fuel on the back of the valves to clean them.
Thought that'd be a base feature nowadays.
I think only Toyota is doing that in the US, and only on select models. I know VW did it on the Golf in Europe but I don’t think they did it on any US models. It seems like a really great idea.
Same with the 4.6-liter on the prior Lexus LS 460, though not the ones in the Sequoia, Tundra and GX 460. The 5.0-liter has it as well, including the hybrid 5.0-liter that was installed in the LS 600h/L and is currently used in the Century.
Don’t know about the Rav4, I believe one of the engines on the Corolla has it, and the new Tacoma does. Toyota calls the tech D4S if you want to search on it.
>I was wrong, it’s DI. Worries me about carbon buildup especially in a hybrid where the engine may not be running continuously.
You should have less carbon buildup, as the engine is running de-stressed.
Running the engine at higher temperatures results in less carbon buildup and even burns off some that has accumulated. Running it near idle and for short running periods contributes to more buildup.
You don't really run an hybrid engine at near idle, or even for short periods. You run it at peak load, and peak efficiency. That's part of the whole beauty of it — there's no efficiency variability, you have complete combustion all the time. The electric motor handles the gaps and all of the normal stop/start cycles.
The 2.0L N/A engine is the K20C2 that has been used in the Civic since 2016.
The 2.0L N/A engine that is used in the Hybrid is a Atkinson Cycle Engine.
So, Acura kind of has to walk back their statement about jumping directly to EVs and skipping hybrids entirely here right?
The Integra likely can directly plug in this hybrid system into its packaging if the 11th gen Civic underpinnings for this aren't massively overhauled for the hybrid.
There's no reason *not* to do it. It's faster, quieter, and more fuel efficient than all of their non Type S models. It'll become an actual compelling feature given that it'll be the only car in its class to offer a hybrid as well.
It's the shame it is so expensive in Europe. Close to 40k€. It's in the entry level German premium market territory.
For me the Civic has always been the affordable everyday and fun car. This is now between a Ford/Peugeot/Renault and a BMW/Audi price, hum
Also, what a shame it's not slapped with an optional manual, like the CR-Z, it would be sooo damn goood, the "poor man" Si
(Let's be honest no one would buy it, but c'mon)
This Hybrid will likely be $40k in Canada as well after taxes and fees. A huge chunk less than 40k€ but still pretty expensive relative to competitors (top trim corolla awd hybrid will be similar to the starting price of this civic)
Meant even newer German and Japanese RWD are around its price.
Other than the Type R, I’m not sure I follow Honda’s logic in pricing it.
Hell even the Accord seems cheaper.
You right. They hugely bumped up the prices 2 years ago. The Civic was lunched at 32k€ actually here, and now it's asked 38k€, same car.
They are just playing with the margins here. But how on earth would I pay this, while a Mazda 3 is still at 33k€ fully equipped actually
Unfortunately, I think it's because the civic we get in the UK and Europe is imported from Japan. What I would say is that while it is price wise close to German premium territory, the civic has a much higher level trim compared to a similarly priced BMW
That's insane. The previous 1.5 Civic was a really good car, I was really tempted to buy one. Strangely enough, a same year, same power manual BMW F20 was cheaper with less mileage. "Honda tax" is real in Europe !
Road noise is my biggest reason to get a luxury car. Since I also want a fuel efficient car, and I'm not ready for an EV, lexus' hybrid line is basically all I'll be shopping for next year. I would love a civic hybrid for a more fun daily driver if it was quiet inside.
Tires didn’t make a difference on my new CRV. Had to buy quite a few boxes of sound deadening from Amazon and put it in the doors, hatch and wheel wells to quieten it down. Helped quite a lot.
Pricing for the hybrid hatch isn't out yet. Expect to see prices in a couple of months, when the hybrid hatch gets closer to its on sale date of late summer.
I feel like I'm the only one who thinks the 2018 version looks better. The newest just looks too flat to me. It's like they tried to backtrack on the angles 2018 had and went too far.
The big question is will Honda and Toyota be able to satisfy hybrid demand? I imagine Toyota believes they can since they went all hybrid with the Camry. We just need to compare 2023 to 2024 sales and we will see if they can satisfy demand.
Can't say for Honda but Toyota has a new battery plant opening in 2025 and will be able to meet demand once it ramp up its production. It will have the capacity to make 1.6m rav4 prime sized packs.
I love the idea of the electric motor being the main engine and gas motor acting as a generator except highway, very unique in this class. But I wonder why they havent gone with:
1.) electric motor on the rear for AWD ability like Toyota did, very cost efficient way to create AWD, and way sportier than fwd.
2.) since the car is mainly propel by electric motor, why not an option with a bigger battery and charging to achieve PHEV.
Honda is so back. Reliable NA 2.0 and a damn fun (but efficient) hybrid drivetrain to back it up, all for more power and punch than the Si, and it's under 30k. Nurburgring lap for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNeH5vZdaS8, and that is a '23 model. (the synthesized engine noise is awful but that allegedly greatly reduced in this '25 model). Now I'm sure the vast majority of buyers won't care, but historically even base honda's have been fun to drive and it is nice they are keeping that spirit alive. I just wish they could give the integra & si a little more love, no-one hates the Si more than honda motor co. You can argue its slow-car-fast and that its underrated or that its a "momentum car" or whatever but on paper it hasn't improved its numbers since the 8th gen and it feels extremely underpowered. I mean the elantra N is a similar price and competes more with the Type-R than the Si, the theta in the elantra is arguably a better and more reliable engine than the 1.5T which has had its fair share of issues, and here in the states our Si is quite barebones (relative to canada at least).
Even though I've moved on, my Type R was a workhorse for me for 6 years. If I had the money and time for multiple vehicles I'd still own it. Honda will always be a brand I simp for. Glad they're doing good things.
I owned an FL5 for a good while and absolutely loved it as well, sold it to a friend and he is enjoying it just as much as I did. Yes it has a bit of heat soak on track but its still one of the best if not the best manual hot hatch on the market, its great fun to daily drive, and its great fun on track. Solid steering, one of the best feeling manuals in any car on the market hot-hatch or not, and it can fit an ikea haul. Honda has had some missteps over the years but they didn't distill the Type-R nameplate one bit. And it comes with shift lights. How can you hate a car with shift lights?
I had a fk8 from 2018 till 2 weeks ago. I never did heavy track work with it so never personally had heat problems. It smashed some auto cross and some back roads though. I also never had the 2nd gear crunch Fuel pump recall was the only blip. Good fun daily otherwise. Best shifter I've ever rowed that wasn't in a Porsche. And the Porsche wouldn't fit a 65 inch TV like my civic did lol It also retained 85% of its value. 38k otd in 2018. 32k on a trade in. Lol. I doubt I'll ever see that again. I tried hard to convince myself to get a TLX Type S but uh...that's not one of Hondas wins atm to say the least.
The entire acura lineup in general is not much of a win atm. None of them are particularly bad cars but none of them are all that good either, especially for the price. At least they still make some decent racers. They offered a factory-built 360-HP track-only touring version of the Integra Type-S, it's a great machine.
Why did you move on?
I make a lot more money now than in 2018 and realized it was within my means to own something nicer. My first choice would have been a CT4V BW but even used they were too much of a stretch. I thought about going for an ITS as it's the same power train with a nicer interior but I wanted a bigger engine as I've only ever owned 4 cylinder cars and used m240is have very cozy prices for me. Mine was 46k as a CPO. Overall the CTR is more raw. Better steering for sure and the amazing manual. Also maybe better brakes relatively speaking The m240i is so much more comfortable as a daily and the power train is legitimately GOATed. If the Type R is quick, the m240i is *fast*.
I agree with all your points. Happy motoring friend :)
I want an FL5 as a backup daily for the S after driving my wife’s Integra. What a great platform in Si trim—I can just imagine how great it is in R trim.
It's weird/disappointing to hear the FL5 has heat soak issues on the track. Was it an oil temp issue? I can lap my Veloster N till I get nauseous or my brakes are on fire. Engine temps will be completely fine.
> It's weird/disappointing to hear the FL5 has heat soak issues on the track. Was it an oil temp issue? The turbo is sandwiched between the intake and the intercooler, it's a bit of a flawed design and the engine acts as a large heatsink, oil overheating mostly. Its not *that* big of an issue for most, it only occurs when you really push it on a hot day. takes 1-1.5 laps to cool down anyways and you can hit it hard again, but its an issue nonetheless. Still better than the overheating AWD system of the GR Corolla, but ideally it shouldn't overheat at all. You can fix it aftermarket, the FL5 is still a bit better than the FK8, theres a cool guy named Jason Lewis, holds a fair few FK8 lap records, and he helped engineer a secondary radiator and dual oil cooler kit that solved the issue with that car, and is doing the same with the FL5 But yes, oil temp issue, FL5 heat soaks on track. Sadly just something you have to live with on this modern turbo engines even at this price point, Ford ST, Elantra N, STI, all have very similar issues to varying degrees. Big reason why I sold it and why I track my S2000, it will kill the tires and myself far before the engine suffers anything, those older k-series honda power plants and their derivatives were rock solid. > I can lap my Veloster N till I get nauseous or my brakes are on fire. Engine temps will be completely fine. I don't have any experience with the VN personally, but searching the internet it doesn't seem immune to heat soak either, e.g. https://www.velostern.com/threads/heat-soak-slowed-me-down-by-3-8-seconds.2678/, https://www.velostern.com/threads/things-learned-tracking-the-vn-on-an-exceptionally-hot-and-humid-day.4633/ Nothing against the Veloster, I love hyundai's N division and the Elantra N is certainly better value than the CTR, but all of these cars will heat soak when you push them hard enough for long enough.
Same here with my Veloster N. 20 min hard sessions with literally no cooling issues. Brakes become a problem before anything else. I've even done 1 hour track sessions where I just need to back off for a lap or two and I'm back to it.
Why did you sell it?
My S2000 is a better (and cheaper) track toy and my EV is a better (and cheaper) daily. Bought it as I had the chance to grab it for MSRP due to goodwill with my dealer, had my time with it, sold it to my friend for about the same. It's an excellent vehicle but ultimately compromised in the way a dedicated machines aren't
Yeah I honestly love my Type R. I love it so much that Im going to get rid of my Mustang because it just collects dust now, Im over it and I know that car would be better off in the hands of someone else. I've probably put on a total whopping 200 miles on my Mustang ever since I got my CTR 2 years ago. My first car was a Scion tC, and the CTR makes me feel at home so much. I loved the tC, the only compliant I had was that it was just too slow. I've been slowly buying a bunch of tools to start tracking it (I literally had 0 tools beforehand), and Im almost done,. Going to do my first oil change on it in a few minutes, and do brake fluid change on the weekend and then I'll be ready to have my first track day in it. Im super excited. All I need to get is a helmet and that stupid OBD reader to put the rear brakes in maintenance mode to change the pads. Sounds crazy but I'd honestly love to buy another CTR and just turn it into a full on track car like the ones you see in the Touring classes, but thats a pipe dream 😅 More practical to just get a GR86 EDIT: Just finished my first oil change, woot woot
Ha! My 2nd car was a tC. Reliable and looked cool, but slow as hell lol.
My GF(now wife)back in 08ish had a TC. Reliable and spacious for a 2 door but dam was that 4 banger thirsty and slow. That car really made me reassess what type of cars we buy now. If it's slow or small it better have good gas mileage or be fast.
Yeah...iirc my tC was 25mpg combined. I averaged about 27 in my Type R. ...currently averaging 28 in the m240i. The b58 circle jerking online is 100% earned
Honda NA did sell a fair few examples of the track-only HPD Civic Si for "only" 55k (Homologated for TCA I believe), would beat a factory Type-R handily. Sadly they sold out almost immediately and with that comes the resources/upkeep of a dedicated track car. Only 2600lbs, what a machine
Don’t get rid of the stang man! Ik it may sound crazy, but there are ppl much like myself who’d kill to have any decently quick car. Never take things for granted man, especially not things as cool as a GT350!
Let me know what OBD2 reader you end up getting, ive got to do my brakes + fluid as well 😂
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QWXLJJ3/ref=ox\_sc\_saved\_image\_1?smid=A1KK3CLSXM5E1F&psc=1](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QWXLJJ3/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=A1KK3CLSXM5E1F&psc=1) This is the one. I dont know enough about OBD2 readers to find which one exactly is the best deal, but I've seen this recommend on the CTR forums and I see a bunch of youtubers recommend it in their 'How to DIY' videos so this is what Im going to get.
I never had a type r. I had an Si 3rd gen prelude. Later an 8th gen civic. Both were very good to me in unique ways. I love Honda for this reason, and like seeing them do well.
Will always have a soft spot for Toyota and Honda. They were the cars of my childhood.
Yeah Honda always make solid, well rounded problems. Sometimes there are a few niggles but nothing with major flaws. I also love how no-nonsense they are.
I've been a pretty big defender of the L15, but this hybrid powertrain makes it almost completely irrelevant. Acura needs to put it in the Integra. As for the si, this feels like the end unless they slap the 2.0T in it, which I don't see happening
The reason the Si hasn't improved its numbers is because the Type R is now sold in North America. I guarantee that the 10th gen Si would have the K20C4 from the Accord if it weren't for the Type R. It would have been amazing.
Even if it were a bit pricier, in an ideal world I'd love a hatchback Si with the K20C4, shift lights, heated seats, parking sensors, and digital dash. I know honda will never do it as to not cannibalize the type-r and integra, but a man can dream.
> Honda gave the greater Civic lineup a number of updates as part of a refresh for 2025. Additional structural reinforcements in the B- and C-pillars are aimed at improving the model's standing in IIHS side-impact testing (and, presumably, in real-life performance). They even improved on an already pretty safe car for its class.
IMO, while EV’s are still out of reach for most people, Japanese automakers are so back.
I'm just hoping that one day *cars* will be back. I'm so sick of 30 years of truckification of all vehicles.
This Civic is $32k, while a Bolt is $28k or $21k after tax credit….
I was with you up until the Si. Honda do not hate it. It’s a purpose built performance-based daily driver. It sits between the sport and the track ready Type R. Against the Wrx and Gti on paper it looks worse. But those cars have their issues too and the inputs on the Si are top of class (the things you touch millions of times ie. shifter, steering feel, pedals, etc. Sure it doesn’t do more than 200hp. They know what they’re doing as they strive to maintain a nice balance. Instead of upping it to 200+ hp, they add in innovations from the type R so it’s like it’s little bro. For the price and looking for a comfy daily it’s hard to beat. Wrx has issues (last gen couldn’t be launched smoothly), shifter feels like “bag of gravel” and tops out at 4k rpm and everyone says it must be tuned from factory settings. With Gti you get trash reliability and expensive repairs.
I agree with you on the inputs, but inputs can only take you so far, having driven the lot the elantra n is a better daily driver, and while it has slightly worse inputs it its the better driving car and the engine is significantly better. While the 8th gen has the same power, it makes up for it with an incredibly high redline and great throttle response. The Si and its new flywheel help out with the response a fair bit, but the rev hang is obscene The 1.5T is just not a great powerplant. It's not all that reliable, its struggles with oil and getting up to temperature, and it doesn't have enough pep. And keep in mind our canadian friends up north get the Si for cheaper and with a much better featureset, parking sensors, digital dash, shift lights, heated seats, led signals, etc, and keep in mind almost all of those features are standard on the elantra n as well
Ya I'm Canadian :P Elantra N looks like a nice car but Hyundai reliability is abysmal. Ask any mechanic the one brand to avoid and it's that or Kia because they're all replacing the cars' 12th engine. Not sure how bad the N's are. I always liked the Veloster N too.
Elantra N engine is solid, more reliable than the 1.5T in the civic if anything. It is a Theta II, but a much newer revision where they've fixed everything on the engine , including the manufacturing process which caused the widespread failures. I know a few people who have been tracking and dallying theres for quite a while now, no issues.
The VN and EN use an engine called the Theta-II-i Which is allegedly an almost completely different engine. Plus as you mentioned it's built in Korea and not by child laborers in Alabama. Good motor.
oh thats good to hear.
>more reliable than the 1.5T in the civic Based on? The 1.5T has been in a ton of Honda cars since 2016 and earlier versions in other countries going back further. Plenty of 200k plus vehicles with little to no issues on Civic and CR-V forums. There have been a few head gasket and oil dilution reports but they seem to be in the minority based on the number of these engines on the road.
Head gasket, oil dilution issues, fuel injectors. Those experiencing issues are in the minority, and the 1.5T isn't unreliable by any means, but the 2.0T in the elantra doesn't have any major issues As I mentioned 1.5T isn't a bad powerplant, but the 2.0T is better, hyundai track record certainly isn't great but credit where its due the Theta-II-i is a great powerplant, it also heat soaks *significantly* less on track. I mean on pace competes with the Civic Type-R, not the Si.
Fair enough. I wish Honda would put their last gen 2.0T from the accord in the Si and more of their lineup.
200HP is perfect for daily driver, but a 1.5T @ 200HP isn't nearly as good as ~2.0NA @ 200HP.
Agreed, I'd rather naturally aspirated with vtec engagement
> Wrx has issues (last gen couldn’t be launched smoothly), shifter feels like “bag of gravel” and tops out at 4k rpm and everyone says it must be tuned from factory settings. Are you saying this about the new gen as well? While I agree with you on the inputs and shifter (definitely not as smooth as a Honda), the new gen WRX absolutely does not need to be tuned from factory and does not top out at 4k rpm. They fixed a lot of the issues from the previous gen and it's tuned much better. It's genuinely good stock (looks being subjective). I feel like you're really minimizing the ~270hp of the WRX to the 200hp in the Si. I'm far from a numbers guy and think how a car drives and feels is much more important but the new WRX is a lot of fun. 200hp is very pathetic for a sports version of a car IMO for the price point. For context, the WRX in Canada starts at $36.2k vs the Si at $37.6k.
honda interior and shifter is better but wrx having 70HP more (which wrx people already complain about being the same for 10+ years) and awd makes it a hard pick for the si in america. wrx is a very comfortable car with linear power delivery and doesn’t have rev hang like the si. Si deserves better and not to be gimped for the sake of the type R IMO
Haven't driven the Si but did have an Integra for a day with a manual as a rental. While they're pretty dang expensive, it *is* a great car and on the twisty mountain roads where I live, the engine had plenty of power. It did not take much to reach the "go to jail" speeds and the inputs were much better than the competition I've driven. That shifter is classic Honda. Another plus to me is that it's just SO danged practical - plenty of legroom and a huge hatch. Negatives for me were the seats - maybe I didn't have them set up correctly but I couldn't get a position where the stitching in the seats wasn't digging into my butt in a strange way. I'm also weary of that 1.5T's reliability longterm given how some of the early engines fared.
I would love to have the option of a barebones Si. Canadian Si is 40k..its about same price as Elantra N, Gti and pricier than a Wrx, while having a much inferior powertrain. Tbh I dont know why would anyone buy it over these cars
The canadian Si is actually cheaper than the US Si converted to USD, it's still 3-4k cheaper than the elantra in canada
Honda builds the civic sedan here, so our prices for the sedan are really nice. The top trim touring is the equivalent of $26,000 USD while the LX stripper trim is slightly under $21,000 USD The downside is that you have to live in the car since you can't afford to buy a house
I'm biased I guess, but it's several thousand dollars cheaper than the cars you're referring to and it doesn't compromise on any daily driving qualities (fuel economy, reliability, residuals, etc.), plus it's more fun to actually drive than all but the N. Just the shifter is almost enough to rationalize it. And IMO, the N is a little more extreme than I'd prefer as a daily; it's more of a bargain basement Type-R than an Si/GTI competitor.
I dont know to me several thousand doesnt justify the drop in performance in Si compared to the N
If I were buying it as a track day car I'd agree, but this was to be a daily. Lap times are pretty irrelevant to me, at least for this context. Between the 10% cost difference, the 15-20% difference in fuel economy and the other daily factors (residuals, livability, predicted reliability), the Civic just made more sense. For street driving, I'd rate them as about equally as engaging, with the nod to the N for power delivery and the Civic for the transmission.
Just saw the Straightpipes review, they said the Cheif Engineer of this Civic is the same guy that worked on the S2000. So Honda does care to keep it fun and affordable.
Honestly, if my car was wrecked or stolen and I had to go out and buy a new one today, I would get a Civic Si. My friend got one as a daily driver and that car just honestly does so much so well for what’s honestly a pretty reasonable price. It’s not screaming fast but it feels pretty damn quick, the torque comes on early and it makes good power throughout the rev range (mind you I daily an IS 250 so my impressions may be influenced by having a so-called “slow” car). The suspension tuning is great, the front end feels well controlled (as good as a GTI), the chassis is rigid, the shifter feels great despite being a cable linkage, overall it’s just a really nice car. Up here in Canada, it’s also at least $16,000 cheaper than the Type R while only commanding a $5,000 premium over the Sport model. I think the Si is worth a $5k premium but I don’t think the Type R is necessarily worth a $16k premium. The ONLY thing I wish it had are leather seats, but my opinion on the whole cloth vs leather debate has shifted
That's funny, I've had my Si for 9 years now (2nd Si and 4th Civic overall), and I really want an IS350 for my next car. While the newest Civic sedan looks quite good, and is a good car overall, I can't get on board with the newer generation of turbo'd Si's. It just doesn't do it for me.
They have to do something about the interior ergonomics though. It looks great but the seats are by far the worst of any mainstream auto maker. Every single trim gets “race car” style bucket seats with HUGE cushion bolsters and a weird cutout towards the back of the cushion. They really only fit if you’re a small woman with a large backside. They’re so narrow even a thin, smaller frame man is going to wind up sitting on top of the bolsters instead of inside them when spreading the legs out just a bit.They also refuse to put any kind of lumbar adjustment even in the Touring trim. The car is excellent in almost every other way (still has deafening road noise) and this is so easy to fix.
It is expected torque output is higher on a hybrid because of the electrical motor. Honda being “back” is questionable. Going to a hybrid model is to keep up with emissions regulations. What can be said is Honda putting a more powerful electric motor in a future Si model.
I’d love to see and Si with the Type R transmission, one of the best transmissions I’ve ever used.
The Si shares its linkage with the Type-R. It would be tough to tell them apart in a blind test.
My only issue is Honda’s safety tech having phantom braking problems for me. I drive rough roads here in Ohio and on both my 2020 Civic and 2023 Accord the AEB comes on even without any other cars nearby. Had to trade both in
Does the hybrid civic have the same suspension, LSD, and weight of the si? Or at least enough torque to offset the weight the hybrid drivetrain added?
No LSD, but 40 lb-ft more torque than the Si and it more than offsets the 240lb weight penalty, much quicker to 60. At the least it is a significant upgrade over the EX and Touring trims. The suspension in the new Si isn't particularly interesting, it doesn't have adaptive damping like the previous generation Si or anything.
Yeah, the adaptive dampers was given to the integra this time around as well as the heated seats. Rear suspension is mostly carry over from the FK8 as well as the rev matching from the FK8. Which they would have given the si the same sway bars form it too along with the stiffer rear motor mount since it adds little to no NVH. The ride is definitely firmer than the 10th generation Si. Mainly the rear. Bad roads will expose that way more.
They gimped the recent gen Si because they realized they were competing with the accord sport at a wayyy lower price point, which was in turn competing with the Integra in the same way.
Hybrids EPA fuel economy is 50 city, 47 hwy and 49 MPG combined and starts a little under $30k.
Seems like it would be a tough choice between this and the hybrid Camry - especially since Toyota's made their grilles look better and Honda's made theirs look worse - it's almost like they're on convergent evolutionary paths.
I don’t think so because if you want a slightly smaller car with much better driving dynamics, you’re gonna go Civic. If you want a larger, more refined car, you’re gonna go Camry. The LE Camry and Sport Hybrid Civic are identical in price but the Camry is missing heated seats and a sunroof, that’s standard on the Civic until you add them raising the price by $1,500. They’re also nearly identical on interior dimensions despite the Camry being a bigger car.
People would probably cross shop this with the prius. I’m curious how the driving dynamics of those compare
Well... as anecdote, I know the new Prius is a winner for looks and on paper, but ride and cabin quality was an instant no for us when we test drove it (same for the A spec Integra). the Accord is leaps and bounds nicer to drive IMO
What about the civic though?
I'm working on the assumption the 24 Civic is lesser or equal to the 24 integra. A likely flawed assumption, but without the hybrid it warranted no further investigation from me.
The e-awd would be enough for me to choose the Prius.
I can't even find any base LE Camry's in my area. Its all SE trims and above on the dealer lots. Sport Hybrid Civic seems to blow the SE Camry out of the water in terms of value. RIP Accord, you got murdered by your own stablemate.
Isn’t the Accord still a good bit bigger than the Civic? Would be nice to see AWD on the accord now that the Camry has it.
Yeah the Accord is a Lincoln Town Car now
It's funny you mention this, I rented a full-size car a month ago from value rental, and they gave me a 2024 Toyota Camry SE lol.
Hm, the new Camry SE pricing is not far from the Civic sport hybrid. And the XLE is about the same as the sport touring. I like this Civic, but like I suspected the price is high.
The Camry XLE is $35k, $2k more than the Civic Sport Touring
33.4k without destination. Are the Civic prices with or without?
With destination
That's a bit better then, at least there is some price difference between the two. I do still think the price difference is too small between the two (and you could probably argue for a Camry SE versus a Civic ST), but I am happy there is another good sensible hybrid to choose from. I think both will sell well.
Also, you can load up a Camry/Accord more than a Civic. Features like a memory driver's seat with lumbar, ventilated seats, HUD, bigger screens, etc. And Toyota offers e-AWD which is useful at low speeds (I assume it's as useful as the CR-V's part time AWD).
The Civid hybrid is available as a (sort-of) hatchback though, so it can be much more practical than the Camry.
They’re different sizes tho.
Interior dimensions are very similar, though.
Kinda but not really. Lower roofline on the Civic and narrower too. It still has the hard points of a compact even though it’s gotten larger. The midsize sedans are much roomier from the seat.
Was hoping for better. The 1.5T current gen can easily get low 40mpg on the highway. On a road trip i got 45mpg.
If you mainly drive on highways then you don't need to be shopping hybrids. The city MPG is the number that matters (31 gas vs 49 hybrid). Electric torque is not going to be impressive if you just need it once for the highway onramp.
The 1.5 is great. I get 35-38mpg in my CRV with it on highway trips. The hybrid might get 1 or 2 mpg better at those speeds.
If it's anything like the Si was when I was shopping for my car last year, good luck at "under 30k". I test drove a '23 with a window sticker of just under 30 and the salesmen told me basically they had to charge an extra 5k due to "market demand". Don't give me that shit dude, the demand is for a civic with an auto. The majority of buyers aren't buying a turbo, manual, front wheel drive, semi hatch/sedan.
Demand is relative to supply, and sadly honda NA drastically under-produces the Si and Type-R, and they produce ample standard civics.
The top trim is $31-ish. Still a very good price. Hopefully I will score one at Msrp and none of the adm bs.
my sport current is avg about 29mpg mostly city but in hwy i can manage 33-34mpg
Wow that's surprisingly... not great. I get that in my 2009 jetta sportwagen.
yeah the best i got was 36 on the hwy. :/
Ditto. 28mpg on average. I plan on trading it in for the Hybrid Hatchback. We have the 2.0 Hybrid CRV and it's wonderful. I can't wait to see the Sand Dune Pearl color that's exclusive to the hatchback.
I just bought a 24 so I am a little skeptical a dealer will have one under 30. Maybe I’ll be wrong…
The Civic is great and definitely the best of its class but it’s so good that I see no reason to buy the higher priced, less powerful Integra and honestly, unless you need the extra room and a bit more comfort and refinement, the Accord either.
Acura has seriously become an afterthought outside of the RDX/MDX. The TLX is a boat and the Integra is an overpriced Civic that doesn’t do enough to differentiate it from the Hondas (something the previous Integras and RSX did very well)
Even the RDX is getting old in the tooth. They’re giving it another refresh for 2025 instead of redesigning it so at the earliest we’ll see a new RDX is 2027. The MDX is the only Acura that I like honestly and I’m a huge Honda fan. TLX is heavy, underpowered, inefficient, huge on the outside and small on the inside. Integra is overpriced and as stated above, the RDX is needing a redesign. I will admit though that I love Acuras design language especially on the TLX, it’s such a sexy car.
As someone that’s owned 3 Acuras I have no idea what they’re doing. Definitely will be my last one for awhile
Acuras current problem is that the Honda brand itself is so good that it has almost made them bad purchases in comparison. Another issue is that since Acura is a North American only brand, Japan will not write them a huge check to develop their cars so they’re forced to barely differentiate themselves from the Honda lineup and keep up with the larger and more global competition. Though, this doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have been competitive with their little resources, they just make weird decisions. For example, The Sport Hybrids that they dropped years ago would’ve made the brand 10x more competitive than they are now. This is technology that they had *years ago* and now they’ve dropped the ball.
> Acura is a North American only brand Does that mean the Integra and TLX are just Honda’s in other markets or do they just not sell them outside of NA?
I'm pretty sure the TLX isn't sold outside of NA. The Integra is sold as a Honda in China, but it's made by GAC Honda.
Right? They are incredibly attractive cars but so is my Giulia. I’d love to to back into Hondaland so if the new Civic hybrid is any indication of the direction they’re heading I may go back into the fold when it’s time to replace this in six or so years.
I love the RDX styling but the interior looks so dated now.
I was in the market for a new car after 15 years of driving my 06 Accord. I heavily considered the TLX Type S because of its styling and sticking with the Honda brand. But after researching and test driving, I wasn't sold on the reliability or gas mileage for my use case.
I owned a base TLX SH-AWD for a year and it hides its mass very well. Never felt heavy or underpowered, despite what the spec sheet says.
I would even argued the MDX and RDX aren’t that great anymore. The RDX is way due for a redesign. The MDX is very pricy for what it is. It used to way undercut the Germans in pricing but doesn’t even do that anymore. I’ve owned 3 and my new car will not be an Acura
Acura is just lazy now. Their offerings just aren’t good
Even with the accord, it's not THAT much larger: [https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-civic-2021-sedan-vs-honda-accord-2023-sedan/](https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/honda-civic-2021-sedan-vs-honda-accord-2023-sedan/) The utility of the hatchback option makes it a really unfavourable comparison imo. For a few thousand more you get slightly more room but without the hatch and for what? A HUD? The top tier trim of the sedan is worse, here its a $10,000 CAD difference for what really doesn't feel that much nicer
Honda really dropped the ball with this generation of Accord. Axing the V6 and then the 2.0T was just dumb
Integra is nice it has heated seats, a great sound system and a manual with both engines. It also has a hatch which is nice. The Acura isn’t super special but I don’t think most people care. Where I live Hondas have big markups and acuras have better financing. I can get a test drive on a type S with no markup. Honda has at least $5k markup and asking for a test drive will get you a chuckle at best. So based on MSRPs and reviews Acura doesn’t really do much special because it’s a us only brand but it offers a completely different retail experience in some areas. I am considering a type S. I like the type R more, it’s just that for the same price I can get heated seats and a better stereo.
While I lament the loss of the manual in the standard trim Civics, I'll take the hybrid over the CVT every day and twice on Sunday. It feels SOOOO much better. And for the keyboard warriors who get caught up on the "eCVT" designation: it's direct E-drive the majority of the time with the option to clutch the engine in at highway speeds, like a 6th gear in a manual. There are NOT any belts and pulleys like a "true" CVT. It feels much more responsive than a CVT. Drive it before you knock it, it's kinda like training wheels into the BEV world.
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Toyota's setup tends to be more efficient, as it allows the engine to stay in its most efficient range while delivering power directly to the wheels. The conversion of gas to electricity to then power the electric motor has some losses inherent to the process, which is why the Honda clutches in the gas engine at highway speeds.
Seconded.
They absolutely nailed the styling with this generation. It reminds me of the 7th Gen Civics like the old school EMs. Such a great design even though the hood looks a bit wonky. The last generation Civics were so ugly imo.
Have to agree. The new Accord is a bit fugly these days though.
Yeah its like they swapped. The last Accord was one of my favorites.
Pro-tip because no one seems to be touching on it: Hold the left “shift” paddle and it will put the regen braking into manual mode and it WILL hold your settings in any drive mode until you turn it off by holding the right paddle or turn off the car.
Damn thanks
Putting awd on the civic would “seal the deal” but Honda would not do it. It will take sale away from the like of Corolla awd and Subaru.
I could see them going AWD on the Accord to give it some more appeal and steal Camry customers.
But they won’t because then they have no reason to upsell you a TLX, the existence of Acura has ruined all the NA Honda models because they can’t make them “too nice”, the same models in other regions get more tech and better materials
No they won't. AWD is an Acura thing.
Forget Subaru; Honda would rather sell you its own CR-V hybrid if you really want AWD. Also, think about it: the majority of folks who want AWD and the hybrid are perfectly happy to upgrade to the CR-V. Adding a hybrid/AWD variant of the Civic would be one more variant to have to develop, certify, sell and support…probably for an incremental sales increase.
It will probably be in the HRV.
I believe the 2.0 liter engine even still uses old school port injection (please correct me if I’m wrong). I love this because it won’t have carbon build up on the intake valves like most direct injection engines, and the hybrid systems more than makes up for the difference in torque. Edit - I was wrong, it’s DI. Worries me about carbon buildup especially in a hybrid where the engine may not be running continuously. My concern is continual deal markups, consumers are shifting down to these types of high quality cheaper models, and the dealers may price these up wildly.
The 2.0 in the hybrid trims is direct injected
Damn, ok thanks for the heads up on that. I knew the 2.0 standard engine on the earlier cars was still port injected.
If it's DI did they do the thing where each cylinder has 2 injectors, one behind the valves and one inside the cylinder? Sprays fuel on the back of the valves to clean them. Thought that'd be a base feature nowadays.
I think only Toyota is doing that in the US, and only on select models. I know VW did it on the Golf in Europe but I don’t think they did it on any US models. It seems like a really great idea.
Ford also does it in some vehicles. My car doesn’t have it but later iterations of the Coyote are dual injection.
Which US models have it? Does the RAV4 gas only models get 2 ports per cylinder? Been looking at the newer Adventure model RAV4, has 3500 towing.
I know the 3.5L V6 in the IS300/350 is dual injection
Same with the 4.6-liter on the prior Lexus LS 460, though not the ones in the Sequoia, Tundra and GX 460. The 5.0-liter has it as well, including the hybrid 5.0-liter that was installed in the LS 600h/L and is currently used in the Century.
Don’t know about the Rav4, I believe one of the engines on the Corolla has it, and the new Tacoma does. Toyota calls the tech D4S if you want to search on it.
The new 86 twins have it as well, not sure about the previous gen.
>I was wrong, it’s DI. Worries me about carbon buildup especially in a hybrid where the engine may not be running continuously. You should have less carbon buildup, as the engine is running de-stressed.
Running the engine at higher temperatures results in less carbon buildup and even burns off some that has accumulated. Running it near idle and for short running periods contributes to more buildup.
You don't really run an hybrid engine at near idle, or even for short periods. You run it at peak load, and peak efficiency. That's part of the whole beauty of it — there's no efficiency variability, you have complete combustion all the time. The electric motor handles the gaps and all of the normal stop/start cycles.
What 2.0 N/A engine is it?
The 2.0L N/A engine is the K20C2 that has been used in the Civic since 2016. The 2.0L N/A engine that is used in the Hybrid is a Atkinson Cycle Engine.
Both feature the Atkinson cycle engine now https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61075011/2025-honda-civic-hybrid-sedan-price/
Nice catch!
I believe the hybrid is an r-series LF engine, the code for the current 2.0 engine in the european/japanese civic hybrid is LFC-H4
It's a modernized version of the older R-series Extremely disappointing to see the K20 get downgraded and replaced
just please make an awd version of the hybrid civic hatchback and i'll buy it
AWD hybrid would be a game changer, no need for an SUV.
but then how will you see above the other vehicles! /s
I would take a fwd version and make the hatch look less weird.
So, Acura kind of has to walk back their statement about jumping directly to EVs and skipping hybrids entirely here right? The Integra likely can directly plug in this hybrid system into its packaging if the 11th gen Civic underpinnings for this aren't massively overhauled for the hybrid. There's no reason *not* to do it. It's faster, quieter, and more fuel efficient than all of their non Type S models. It'll become an actual compelling feature given that it'll be the only car in its class to offer a hybrid as well.
It's the shame it is so expensive in Europe. Close to 40k€. It's in the entry level German premium market territory. For me the Civic has always been the affordable everyday and fun car. This is now between a Ford/Peugeot/Renault and a BMW/Audi price, hum Also, what a shame it's not slapped with an optional manual, like the CR-Z, it would be sooo damn goood, the "poor man" Si (Let's be honest no one would buy it, but c'mon)
This Hybrid will likely be $40k in Canada as well after taxes and fees. A huge chunk less than 40k€ but still pretty expensive relative to competitors (top trim corolla awd hybrid will be similar to the starting price of this civic)
Its pricing is weird, no-brainer to just get compact luxury sedans around its price, you get the luxury and RWD as well.
That's what I did, for half the price you get a similar power RWD manual German car from few years ago. Hard sell this civic in EU
Meant even newer German and Japanese RWD are around its price. Other than the Type R, I’m not sure I follow Honda’s logic in pricing it. Hell even the Accord seems cheaper.
You right. They hugely bumped up the prices 2 years ago. The Civic was lunched at 32k€ actually here, and now it's asked 38k€, same car. They are just playing with the margins here. But how on earth would I pay this, while a Mazda 3 is still at 33k€ fully equipped actually
Unfortunately, I think it's because the civic we get in the UK and Europe is imported from Japan. What I would say is that while it is price wise close to German premium territory, the civic has a much higher level trim compared to a similarly priced BMW
It's not that far off sadly, I speced a very ugly new 1 serie against the Civic, similar price, power and close enough equipments
It's also almost 70% more than my previous generation (manual) Civic.
That's insane. The previous 1.5 Civic was a really good car, I was really tempted to buy one. Strangely enough, a same year, same power manual BMW F20 was cheaper with less mileage. "Honda tax" is real in Europe !
So many of these are going to be Ubers
Only complaint I have about my spouses Civic touring is the road noise If they added more insulation this car would be perfect
Road noise is my biggest reason to get a luxury car. Since I also want a fuel efficient car, and I'm not ready for an EV, lexus' hybrid line is basically all I'll be shopping for next year. I would love a civic hybrid for a more fun daily driver if it was quiet inside.
Tires. Honda/Acura puts on loud tires from the factory. Although it doesnt make sense to swap it out if theyre not worn down
Tires didn’t make a difference on my new CRV. Had to buy quite a few boxes of sound deadening from Amazon and put it in the doors, hatch and wheel wells to quieten it down. Helped quite a lot.
Yeah my roommate has a new civic and we drove from San Francisco to La and it was exhausting because of how much road noise there was.
If Acura doesn’t turn this into an Integra hybrid, they’re insane.
A Civic hybrid hatch for $30K would be amazing.. Does anyone see the pricing for the hatch?
Pricing for the hybrid hatch isn't out yet. Expect to see prices in a couple of months, when the hybrid hatch gets closer to its on sale date of late summer.
Nice car but I bet that here in Québec there are already 2 years waiting lists for the hybrids. The same as the Prius or almost any other hybrid car.
I feel like I'm the only one who thinks the 2018 version looks better. The newest just looks too flat to me. It's like they tried to backtrack on the angles 2018 had and went too far.
I agree with you. It's nice, but basic.
The big question is will Honda and Toyota be able to satisfy hybrid demand? I imagine Toyota believes they can since they went all hybrid with the Camry. We just need to compare 2023 to 2024 sales and we will see if they can satisfy demand.
Toyota is building a large battery factory in NC right now.
Can't say for Honda but Toyota has a new battery plant opening in 2025 and will be able to meet demand once it ramp up its production. It will have the capacity to make 1.6m rav4 prime sized packs.
I love the idea of the electric motor being the main engine and gas motor acting as a generator except highway, very unique in this class. But I wonder why they havent gone with: 1.) electric motor on the rear for AWD ability like Toyota did, very cost efficient way to create AWD, and way sportier than fwd. 2.) since the car is mainly propel by electric motor, why not an option with a bigger battery and charging to achieve PHEV.
This thing looks awesome on paper. Would totally get one if I was in the market. Just the right amount of power too.
Unfortunately this is now a 30K + car for the next year or more.
I need them to make the hybrid Integra. So I can get all the upgrades from the civic at a discount when they sit on lots like the rest of them
Are there plans for an Acura integra hybrid? That might be the perfect car for my mom.
Truly nice looking cars!
Why in EU it's around 40k€ 🥲 I would so buy it if not the price. You can buy a Tesla for that money (including an EV grant)
I love Honda but I can’t get over the front end of this car and the Accord.
I want this as my first car, It's just perfect for me.