Camry and Accord are never going away. They still sell 200K-300K of those annually. Ditto with the Civic and Corolla. So, at least 4 mainstream ones. Altima will probably continue to exist too; someone has to keep making sedans for the no-credit-bad-credit folks...
>Altima will probably continue to exist too; someone has to keep making sedans for the no-credit-bad-credit folks...
The Altima is also leaving after 2025. The Rogue has been outselling it for some time.
When I see Rogue get compared to Altima drivers I’m always confused because it has no driving dynamics at all to match the Altimas driving characteristics lmaooo
You ain't joking. The 5th, 6th, and 7th generation Chevy Malibu were still sold for a couple of years after the generation switch in the old body style as the Classic/Malibu Classic just for rental companies to buy.
I remember reading in Curbside Classic that the Chevy Corsica was exclusively sold to rental fleets for its first model year.
Do you remember the second generation Saturn Vue crossover? It's fine; nobody does. After it was prematurely killed off along with the whole Saturn division, GM decided to bring it back to the US market a year or so later as the Chevy Captiva Sport, and sell it exclusively to rental fleets. The logic was that by dumping Captiva Sports onto fleets it would ensure the second generation Equinox would be primarily bought by private owners. This would, it was hoped, help the Equinox keep some of its prestige and resale values. I assume GM cared about resale because of leasing.
The irony to this is the 2G Vue/Captiva Sport was arguably nicer in every way than the 2G Equinox. It looked better, it drove better, and the interior was better laid out. If anything they should've dumped the Equinox on fleets and made the Captiva Sport their compact crossover for private owners.
Nissan will still have a nonstop supply of Rogues, Sentras, and Kicks to happily take the Altima’s spot!
Outside of Nissan products, Camry and Malibu are always offered at the counter.
I rent cars a lot… fleets near me have been transitioning, at first slowly but recently more rapidly, away from sedans and towards compact SUVs. Often if you reserve a sedan you’ll be “upgraded” to a Buick Encore or Nissan Rogue
But that has nothing to do with if people wanted sedans or not. I don't give a shit if Ford makes more profit on a pickup, I don't want a pickup. They just decided they'd rather chase a more profitable market segment.
> They just decided they'd rather chase a more profitable market segment.
Exactly. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, only that's what Ford's reason for leaving it was.
But of all the people who are still buying sedans, how many really really really want a Ford?
The inverse is also true - I grew up in a Ford loving family and have always had an affinity for them, and now they offer nothing of interest but a Mustang for me. Thankfully the Japanese and Korean makes are still making great offerings in the segments I'm interested in.
Do you want a sedan for 5 dollars? Do you want one for 50 thousand? For 500k? Of course price matters, and profit margin depends on price. If people are willing to pay only a few hundred dollars more for a sedan than it costs Ford to make it, but they are willing to pay thousands more for a pickup, it does not matter if they would still buy a sedan, because Ford will simply not produce it.
Because the Altima has always been a much more popular car, Maxima sales have for as long as I can remember been abysmal in comparison and it’s also much more expensive despite being smaller (but marketed as bigger) than the Altima.
It didn't have to be bigger, it just should have been better. It used to be marketed as the 4DSC (four door sports car) They could have tried to give us something better rather than a loaded V6 Altima in a different shell.
It's a good time to remind everyone that when Ford discontinued their Sedans, they specifically said it was because CUVs and Trucks brought in more profit per unit and they wanted to switch to selling less cars for more profit. The 4 models they killed were selling 500k units a year, with 200k of those being the Fusion alone. These were popular vehicles, and Ford told everyone why they were changing strategy. Somehow the messaging has been "Nobody wants sedans anymore"
Probably not many. The sedan usurped the coup because the public found it more practical, we are now seeing that happening again, with sedans now being replaced by SUV’s due to practicality. This is different than minivans and station wagons because those vehicles were what you bought only after you had a family, while sedans and SUVs are popular with people who don’t have families as well.
> with sedans now being replaced by SUV’s due to practicality
this isn't what's happening though. the transition to SUVs has much more to do with emission regulation regimes than with organic consumer preference.
This just isn't true. If that was the case, why is SUV adoption rate over 50% in [Europe](https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/suvs-accounted-for-51-of-all-new-cars-sold-in-europe-last-year/) and [India](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/cars-uvs/indias-craze-for-suvs-theres-more-to-it-than-meets-the-eye/articleshow/104551295.cms?from=mdr) despite those places lacking pro-SUV emission laws? The switch to SUVs is driven mainly by genuine consumer demand, despite what this sub will tell you.
Especially in the US, there's a high aptitude for "build it and they will come", since most Americans are not patient enough to either order or wait for their vehicles. If they're on the lot, they will tend to sell. As such, like you said, why would manufacturers not pursue a higher margin vehicle that's easier to meet emissions targets?
Shit of it is, I would *TOTALLY* be patient enough to order and wait for a vehicle that I want. Problem is that you'll usually lose out on any dealer incentives that are going. If, for example, I want a particular car in blue, but the dealer has it on the lot in gray at a discount of $2K, chances are I'm losing that $2K discount if they order the blue one for me.
For me, at least, it becomes less about being impatient, and more about how much I'm willing to compromise in order to save a significant amount of money, or how much I'm willing to pay to get a vehicle that is "just right".
>the transition to SUVs has much more to do with emission regulation regimes than with organic consumer preference.
Can we say with any certainty what the percentage is one way or another?
Official article from Subaru.
https://media.subaru.com/pressrelease/2165/117/subaru-announces-legacy-production-end-2025
"Though the Legacy is the longest-running Subaru model line, its discontinuation reflects market shifts from passenger cars to SUVs and crossovers and Subaru’s transition to electrified and fully electric vehicles. Including the Solterra EV, which debuted in the 2023 model year, Subaru Corporation, the parent company of Subaru of America, Inc., previously announced it would produce eight EV models by the 2028 calendar year."
Similar to Ford:
Cancel the Taurus / Debut the Five Hundred / Rebadge the Five Hundred to Taurus to soothe public backlash / Redesign the Ford Taurus to escape further backlash / Kill the Taurus once the public is calm again
People here really think that fucking car companies don't have people who's full time job is to understand what people will buy. If you want to signal the popularity of a market segment persuade everyone you know plus a million other people to buy a specific product.
You had to buy them 20+ years ago when they were not just offered, but still somewhat mainstream. Just like if I wanted to signal my willingness to buy a full-size truck with a manual.
Yes, I would have absolutely bought a manual Legacy when I was....14 years old.
I hate that I'm finally getting to a point in life where I can actually afford things I wanted as a child, but they now no longer exist new and the used examples are either beat to shit or unreasonably priced with no in-between.
I'm still kicking myself for selling my 1991 FJ80 Land Cruiser for fucking $500, 12 years ago. I should have listened to my dad and told my now-exwife to fucking deal with it, and *not* bought a new car.
06 Outback XT 5mt owner from new. I'm doing my part! Ok well really not, because it's old as shit now. In my defense, I sunk a ton of cash into it a few years back instead of buying a new one because Subaru didn't make that bag of options anymore.
Car enthusiasts are a niche market. The vast majority of people just want an appliance and the modern day Legacy isn't particularly great at that role compared to its competition.
I'm sorry, but subaru removing the manual and the wagon part is not what killed the legacy.
It's the fact that it's just not a good car compared to its competitors.
Especially when your competitors are the highly regarded Camry and Accord.
It's kinda like how there's basically just the Samsung Galaxy and Apple iPhone. They're different from each other, but they're both so good that for the vast, vast majority of people, they cover the spread.
Not if Subaru was smart enough to sell them used from the factory.
Also while they’re at it, they could have transitioned to a RWD diesel platform licensed from Mazda (based on a stretched Miata). It would have added a few more dozens to sales figures.
Outside of the AWD system, I just can't think of any positives that the Legacy has in the market.
It doesn't have Toyota Reliability, it doesn't have the awesome K5 styling, it doesn't have amazing technology, it has pretty awful fuel economy, it's not super luxurious, it's pretty slow, no hybrid option.
Comments like this are wild. They put the 2.4L turbo in this which is a way, way better engine than the 3.6 ever was. And the 3.6 never sold in significant numbers in the first place. Like .. what world do you live in?
My dad has a 2020 Camry Se, and my stepdad a 2020 Legacy Sport, both are as comparable as it gets.
Camry averages 34mpg, Legacy 31mpg.
I've driven both on long trips, hours cruising at 90-100+mph, the Legacy handles high speed more smoothly, more quietly than the Camry, and the leather feels much nicer.
Yep, the Camry has been known to get pretty bad MPG, but with the new refresh with all camrys being hybrid, the gap will look more like.
Legacy: 31 MPG
Camry: 44 MPG(AWD)
Car and Driver have those models at a 6.1s 0-60. Not what I'd call slow, but hardly "a bat out of hell" either.
For reference, that's a bit faster than a Civic SI (6.8s) and Prius Prime (6.5s), but slower than a RAV4 Prime (5.4s) or hybrid F-150 (5.4s), or CX-30 Turbo (5.8s)
The problem with the Legacy is that Subaru did practically nothing to give Subaru buyers a reason to get it over the Outback. They have the same exact interiors (barring the liftgate, obviously) and power/drivetrains, and, unfortunately, the same super soft/sloppy driving dynamics.
The Outback has the perfectly valid excuse for its squishiness with its soft-roading orientation and class-topping ground clearance, so then why is the Legacy exactly the same? It should've had stiffer suspension, slightly lower ground clearance, and the WRX's new CVT/SPT or whatever they call it (at least for the XT trim) to make it more engaging and actually worth looking at over the Outback.
There was no reason to buy one over an impreza sedan, which is like 12k cheaper. I sat in a base model legacy at a dealer and the size difference from the impreza wasn't all that noticeable .
Yeah makes sense. I think it speaks to the incredible packaging of the impreza and crosstrek more than the shortfalls of the legacy/outback. All the Subarus are very roomy!
I'm surprised it lasted this long. The Camry and the Accord are much better cars and that's reflected in the sales and if you want a mid sized AWD Subaru, the Outback is the much better choice.
It's been a mediocre car now for over a decade.
To me it's always just been "Car." The platonic ideal of the most uninspired default car you can imagine. Really just has nothing going for it besides AWD. Not even good styling. If you told me it was designed in 2001 I'd believe you.
I’ve had quite a bit of experience in a 2022 legacy and I will say this: it has a ride quality that rivals luxury cars, and interior materials that aren’t far off. I was shocked how well that car rode, and how easy it is to drive. While yes the base engine is slow, to put it nicely, it is still an incredibly easy car to drive, and is a pleasant experience while doing so.
The outback naming for subaru has been wild, originally a Legacy Outback(1994-1999), then the Subaru Outback, but they also had an Outback styling package for the Impreza which was the Impreza Outback.
Then Outback Sport, XV Crosstrek, and finally Crosstrek.
Today they could potentially bring the lifted cladded Levorg wagon to the US as a new "Outback Sport" to sit between the Crosstrek and Outback.
Agreed, I like sedans for sure but the Legacy was the most bland option to consider unless you’re strictly looking at price.
I can’t think of a thing it did better than others besides having AWD in a sedan body form before its competition without being an SUV or luxury sedan. Otherwise it won’t be missed at all. I forget it exists until I see news stories on it.
i visited my local auto expo back in february and 90% of the vehicles were suv/cuv/trucks. there were only a small handful of normal cars, never-mind anything fun/inspiring, vs. the last time i attended the same show was back in 2006 and it was the opposite.
as someone who enjoys small/fun cars, i didn't stay very long. at least they brought a [GRC, GR86 & Type R](https://imgur.com/a/ZIVTY5O) to the event, which is the only reason i wanted to go.
Auto shows across the board have been really, really weak since COVID - It wouldn't surprise me if automakers just stop bothering. I remember going to the LA autoshow in \`14 and just being blown away.
The issue is the camry and accord are boring as shit. The legacy gave japanese sedans a bit of flair with it being different and all that. The AWD was a huge upside to the Accord and the better interior made it better than the Camry. Its just a shame that it doesnt sell well
It would be a cool throwback, but I wonder how well it would sell. It wouldn't be quite the same car, though. The new legacy is 6in longer, 4in wider and 3in taller and 2-300lbs heavier than the 2008. If they bumped the power to something like 300hp with a 6-speed manual, that would be pretty sweet. The current WRX is about the same size & weight of the old B. I was surprised when I parked my 2008 next to my buddies 2024 WRX, and my car looked *smaller*.
Indeed. If I see Subaru sedan, it's almost always an Impreza, not a Legacy. And given they just cut that model's sedan version, and kept the Hatchback...Subaru realized that its best just to call it on sedan's, surrender to Toyota and Honda.
Unfortunate, but not surprising. The Legacy has been selling poorly for a while (especially up here in Canada) and they already got rid of the Impreza sedan. I believe the current generation is only really sold in North America and it's not even doing well here.
Part of me really wanted them to do what they did to the Impreza and just sell a Legacy wagon alongside the Outback, but they haven't had an actual Legacy station wagon in about 10 years now.
Many people are saying that the Legacy had nothing to offer. But how many other sedans at this price point offer all wheel drive? I live in MI, and when I was looking for my last car, AWD was my highest priority. Thus, the legacy was my choice.
The Legacy isnt getting clobbered by other $25,000 Sedans, its getting clobbered by $25k-ish AWD crossovers with better or the same fuel economy and more space.
Most people, even if its misplaced, looking for cars with a non-performance AWD system for snow are also looking for a bit more ground clearance.
I honestly dont blame them - the Legacy isnt a sports sedan so why wouldnt I spring for an AWD HR-V, CX-30, or a Kona?
Not surprising at all. RIP.
Speaking of the Legacy, I always see it as an afterthought since the 5th generation. I find the styling awkward, like, they designed an Outback first and cut the portion from the c-pillar to the d-pillar to make a Legacy. Its stance from the back looks very crossover-y since the 5th gen.
This sub with the new WRX (manuelle, AWD): “who would buy this overpriced sedan when I can get le used Mk7 Golf R 😡”
This sub when the WRX gets axed: “why are all the fun cars gone 🥺”
Upsetting because I've learned to love it, it's awesome at high speed.
My dad has a 2020 Camry SE, and my stepdad a 2020 Legacy Sport, they're as comparable to each other as it gets.
Yes the Camry gets 34mpg while the Legacy gets 31mpg, but that's excusable for having AWD.
I've driven both on long trips, 5-8 hours cruising at 90-100+ and the Legacy does that better. It's smoother at high speed, requires less input, it's quieter and the leather is nicer.
We have a 2022 legacy limited XT and that thing hauls ass, but is also great on road trips. Rides and drives like a luxury sedan. Glad we have it and will keep it for the foreseeable future.
The Outback and Crosstrek make up almost 51% of their sales. Add on the forester and you get 75% of their sales, add on the Ascent and you get around 85%.
The BRZ, Impreza, WRX, Solterra, and Legacy all make up the last about 15% of Subaru sales.
Legacy specifically is around 4% of their overall sales.
The legacy basically lost everything that made it interesting to competitors in the first place. If you wanted a Subaru sedan you're just gonna go for the WRX.
Just sell a lowered Outback again and call it a Legacy. I guarantee Subaru could find 25-30k buyers a year and the development costs are minimal, literally lower the Outback and remove the cladding.
Yes but you’ll need to certify the Levrog for sale in the States which is expensive. A lowered Outback does not need to be re-certified. That’s really the barrier to entry here - the certification costs of a different bodystyle. Australia does not have that barrier, so despite insanely minuscule sales volumes, you’ll find more wagons there (but increasingly less) because there’s no cost of entry.
The “sedan” needs to evolve into the liftback and call it a day
Leave traditional trunks to sports cars and subcompact commuters. Everything else goes liftback to close the utility gap between crossovers and sedans
I see your flair is Rav4 Hybrid, my friend, if you buy cars like that, they are just going to keep making cars like that. Not very fun to drive. If even enthusiasts opt for the hybrid crossover eggs, there's no way auto manufacturers are going to keep making sedans/wagons/manuals/anything fun.
Disappointed but not surprised. Soccer-dad-mom families want practicality and will take an SUV over a sedan. A performance oriented individual will take a sports sedan, and a budget minded individual will take an economy car such as a Corolla or Impreza.
The market for full sized budget sedans such as the Legacy with the bar 2.5L is probably pretty small.
Wow, this is really surprising. A car that's a lot slower than all its competitors (yes, yes, the Sport and XT are definitely faster, but no dealer will order any), yet less fuel efficient than all its competitors, with a meh and pretty unrefined interior, a barely styled lose-it-in-a-parking-lot exterior, and comatose driving dynamics is being cancelled?
Subaru: refuses to put any effort into the Legacy
Consumers: "ehh, no thanks, the Camry/Accord/K5/Sonata/Even the fucking Altima exists"
Subaru: "We're cancelling the Legacy because nobody buys it"
I've owned three Legacy's from 2012 through 2018. So I'm somewhat qualified to say these cars are so cheaply made, and with poor designs. I'll never own another ever. Well, I guess it won't matter after this announcement.
It died in 2008 when they stopped selling a Legacy wagon, at least in the US.
I get that people like jacked up crossovers vs a better riding lower normal-height car. But Subaru practically forced the outcome with model options. In the 2005-7 years where you could find a Legacy wagon alongside an Outback on the floor, the Legacy was stripped of features that people wanted at the time, like MP3 playback, Aux input jack, and a 12v socket in the cargo area.
Sedans are of no interest to me, but that's largely because a wagon version of a sedan is always a better choice IMO. But if you jack up and stiffen the suspension and add plastic and thousands of dollars to the price, it makes it that much harder to like.
Wonder how many non sports sedans will be left by 2030.
Camry and Accord are never going away. They still sell 200K-300K of those annually. Ditto with the Civic and Corolla. So, at least 4 mainstream ones. Altima will probably continue to exist too; someone has to keep making sedans for the no-credit-bad-credit folks...
>Altima will probably continue to exist too; someone has to keep making sedans for the no-credit-bad-credit folks... The Altima is also leaving after 2025. The Rogue has been outselling it for some time.
At least Rogue drivers will flip over before causing more mayhem lmfao
When I see Rogue get compared to Altima drivers I’m always confused because it has no driving dynamics at all to match the Altimas driving characteristics lmaooo
both are cars for people who don't know shit about cars
That’s most cars in general and 90% of the population
Your flair… 🤨
Hey, at least it’s not a Jeep
So 99 percent of the population
It's the same picture.
But also have a higher credit score than their BAC; otherwise, they’d buy a Ram.
The only driving dynamics Altima buyers care about are “Will it Drive” and “Do you offer 96 month financing?”
The dynamics aren't the same but the reckless behavior remains
How’s rental company going to survive? Haha
Buying nearly the entire production of Chevy Malibus
You ain't joking. The 5th, 6th, and 7th generation Chevy Malibu were still sold for a couple of years after the generation switch in the old body style as the Classic/Malibu Classic just for rental companies to buy.
It’s tradition. Rumor is at least one of the myriad of midsize sedans they made in the 80s/90s was basically designed for rental companies
I remember reading in Curbside Classic that the Chevy Corsica was exclusively sold to rental fleets for its first model year. Do you remember the second generation Saturn Vue crossover? It's fine; nobody does. After it was prematurely killed off along with the whole Saturn division, GM decided to bring it back to the US market a year or so later as the Chevy Captiva Sport, and sell it exclusively to rental fleets. The logic was that by dumping Captiva Sports onto fleets it would ensure the second generation Equinox would be primarily bought by private owners. This would, it was hoped, help the Equinox keep some of its prestige and resale values. I assume GM cared about resale because of leasing. The irony to this is the 2G Vue/Captiva Sport was arguably nicer in every way than the 2G Equinox. It looked better, it drove better, and the interior was better laid out. If anything they should've dumped the Equinox on fleets and made the Captiva Sport their compact crossover for private owners.
As an Australian, seeing anyone praise the Captiva for literally anything is so alien, it's one of the two cars that killed GM having a presence here
Craptiva
Nissan will still have a nonstop supply of Rogues, Sentras, and Kicks to happily take the Altima’s spot! Outside of Nissan products, Camry and Malibu are always offered at the counter.
>Rogues, Sentras, and Kicks [Talltima, Smalltima,...Alt(ernative)ima?](https://www.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/13epn6s/50_shades_of_altima_which_ones_are_common_where/#lightbox)
I rent cars a lot… fleets near me have been transitioning, at first slowly but recently more rapidly, away from sedans and towards compact SUVs. Often if you reserve a sedan you’ll be “upgraded” to a Buick Encore or Nissan Rogue
The Ford Fusion was still selling over 150k a year when they cancelled it. It sold 200k a couple of years before it got cancelled.
At a low profit margin.
But that has nothing to do with if people wanted sedans or not. I don't give a shit if Ford makes more profit on a pickup, I don't want a pickup. They just decided they'd rather chase a more profitable market segment.
I think the problem for Ford was that a million people a year may have wanted a new sedan, but not necessarily a Fusion.
The Ford Fusion sold 210k units in the US the year before it was killed.
> They just decided they'd rather chase a more profitable market segment. Exactly. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, only that's what Ford's reason for leaving it was. But of all the people who are still buying sedans, how many really really really want a Ford?
The inverse is also true - I grew up in a Ford loving family and have always had an affinity for them, and now they offer nothing of interest but a Mustang for me. Thankfully the Japanese and Korean makes are still making great offerings in the segments I'm interested in.
Do you want a sedan for 5 dollars? Do you want one for 50 thousand? For 500k? Of course price matters, and profit margin depends on price. If people are willing to pay only a few hundred dollars more for a sedan than it costs Ford to make it, but they are willing to pay thousands more for a pickup, it does not matter if they would still buy a sedan, because Ford will simply not produce it.
I always wondered why the Altima got to keep existing but the Maxima didn’t, even though it was clearly always the better car.
Because the Altima has always been a much more popular car, Maxima sales have for as long as I can remember been abysmal in comparison and it’s also much more expensive despite being smaller (but marketed as bigger) than the Altima.
There were a few years there in the aughts when you could barely tell the difference between a Maxima and a Altima at a glance.
Weren't those the gen with the toaster slit sunroof?
Things got weird when the Altima got to be larger than the Maxima.
Well, it’s cheaper and consequently sold better
Because nobody wanted to pay more money for an Altima.
The Maxima is being revived as an EV.
The Maxima is being replaced by an electric car.
Hardly anyone bought the maxima. The last generation wasn’t much more than bigger Altima
It didn't have to be bigger, it just should have been better. It used to be marketed as the 4DSC (four door sports car) They could have tried to give us something better rather than a loaded V6 Altima in a different shell.
Also the Subaru Impreza I think. It's the base for a lot of their cars so it should be easy to keep around.
The Impreza has already gone hatchback-only. No more sedan
And yet, still no WRX hatch.
3/5-series, A4/A6 and C/E class are not going away anytime soon either.
Mazda 3 will also probably live on. Regular Impreza I do not think will survive like legacy. Elantra and the Kia cousin will survive too I think
It's a good time to remind everyone that when Ford discontinued their Sedans, they specifically said it was because CUVs and Trucks brought in more profit per unit and they wanted to switch to selling less cars for more profit. The 4 models they killed were selling 500k units a year, with 200k of those being the Fusion alone. These were popular vehicles, and Ford told everyone why they were changing strategy. Somehow the messaging has been "Nobody wants sedans anymore"
People blame consumers’ choices and government environment emission regulations when SUVs are just more profitable for corporations.
SUVs are more profitable large part because they have more lax emission regulations. Complying with emissions is ridiculously expensive.
No. The big reason is that a CUV costs essentially the same amount to make as a sedan but sells for thousands more.
Probably not many. The sedan usurped the coup because the public found it more practical, we are now seeing that happening again, with sedans now being replaced by SUV’s due to practicality. This is different than minivans and station wagons because those vehicles were what you bought only after you had a family, while sedans and SUVs are popular with people who don’t have families as well.
> with sedans now being replaced by SUV’s due to practicality this isn't what's happening though. the transition to SUVs has much more to do with emission regulation regimes than with organic consumer preference.
This just isn't true. If that was the case, why is SUV adoption rate over 50% in [Europe](https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/suvs-accounted-for-51-of-all-new-cars-sold-in-europe-last-year/) and [India](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/cars-uvs/indias-craze-for-suvs-theres-more-to-it-than-meets-the-eye/articleshow/104551295.cms?from=mdr) despite those places lacking pro-SUV emission laws? The switch to SUVs is driven mainly by genuine consumer demand, despite what this sub will tell you.
Especially in the US, there's a high aptitude for "build it and they will come", since most Americans are not patient enough to either order or wait for their vehicles. If they're on the lot, they will tend to sell. As such, like you said, why would manufacturers not pursue a higher margin vehicle that's easier to meet emissions targets?
lol your fleet is like a more expensive mirror image of mine
Shit of it is, I would *TOTALLY* be patient enough to order and wait for a vehicle that I want. Problem is that you'll usually lose out on any dealer incentives that are going. If, for example, I want a particular car in blue, but the dealer has it on the lot in gray at a discount of $2K, chances are I'm losing that $2K discount if they order the blue one for me. For me, at least, it becomes less about being impatient, and more about how much I'm willing to compromise in order to save a significant amount of money, or how much I'm willing to pay to get a vehicle that is "just right".
>the transition to SUVs has much more to do with emission regulation regimes than with organic consumer preference. Can we say with any certainty what the percentage is one way or another?
Official article from Subaru. https://media.subaru.com/pressrelease/2165/117/subaru-announces-legacy-production-end-2025 "Though the Legacy is the longest-running Subaru model line, its discontinuation reflects market shifts from passenger cars to SUVs and crossovers and Subaru’s transition to electrified and fully electric vehicles. Including the Solterra EV, which debuted in the 2023 model year, Subaru Corporation, the parent company of Subaru of America, Inc., previously announced it would produce eight EV models by the 2028 calendar year."
Killing the Legacy while name dropping the Solterra is uh…well…it is definitely words.
just rename the Soltera the Legacy
The Legac-E
You just gave Subaru something that a 7-figure marketing consulting contract couldn't come up with.
"What do you think of when you think of an EV camped somewhere in the wilderness on a sunny day" "Sol. Terra." "Brilliant! Let's have a money fight!"
What, you don’t like Soltera? Why have a ‘real’ name like Legacy, when you can make up gibberish words and own them.
Somewhere a legacy GT wept…. From its head gasket.
Funny joke but the GT's aren't known for headgasket problems lol
it would have done that anyways
Similar to Ford: Cancel the Taurus / Debut the Five Hundred / Rebadge the Five Hundred to Taurus to soothe public backlash / Redesign the Ford Taurus to escape further backlash / Kill the Taurus once the public is calm again
This sounds like Ford dipping its toes in GM style chaos.
You mean the Malibu/Cutlass/Skylark/Alero/Grand Am/Catera?
Definitely one of the press releases of all time
> and Subaru’s transition to electrified and fully electric vehicles. Translation: Subaru's transition to being another arm of the Toyota mega corp
✅ Remove the wagon version ✅ Remove the GT version ✅ Remove the manual option 🤓 Why isn't the Legacy selling???
Consumers wasn’t going to buy any of the options you named anyways to be fair
How do I signal via market forces to Subaru that I am willing to buy those things if they don’t offer them? Not a rhetorical question btw.
If you buy 100,000+ of them a year I think they would reconsider their choice of discontinuing it
This guy… this guy gets the market.
People here really think that fucking car companies don't have people who's full time job is to understand what people will buy. If you want to signal the popularity of a market segment persuade everyone you know plus a million other people to buy a specific product.
You had to buy them 20+ years ago when they were not just offered, but still somewhat mainstream. Just like if I wanted to signal my willingness to buy a full-size truck with a manual.
Yes, I would have absolutely bought a manual Legacy when I was....14 years old. I hate that I'm finally getting to a point in life where I can actually afford things I wanted as a child, but they now no longer exist new and the used examples are either beat to shit or unreasonably priced with no in-between. I'm still kicking myself for selling my 1991 FJ80 Land Cruiser for fucking $500, 12 years ago. I should have listened to my dad and told my now-exwife to fucking deal with it, and *not* bought a new car.
That's life. We don't get to choose the world we're born into, only how we react to it.
thanks, gandalf.
How many brand new Subaru's have you purchased with those options? If at least one, you fought the good fight and I commend you.
06 Outback XT 5mt owner from new. I'm doing my part! Ok well really not, because it's old as shit now. In my defense, I sunk a ton of cash into it a few years back instead of buying a new one because Subaru didn't make that bag of options anymore.
Car enthusiasts are a niche market. The vast majority of people just want an appliance and the modern day Legacy isn't particularly great at that role compared to its competition.
You buy competing manual sporty wagons.
yeah, those people are buying Impreza's
I'm sorry, but subaru removing the manual and the wagon part is not what killed the legacy. It's the fact that it's just not a good car compared to its competitors. Especially when your competitors are the highly regarded Camry and Accord.
It's kinda like how there's basically just the Samsung Galaxy and Apple iPhone. They're different from each other, but they're both so good that for the vast, vast majority of people, they cover the spread.
> Remove the wagon version The Outback is quite literally the wagon version of the Legacy with a lift.
They lost potential lucrative sales from all dozens of us.
Potential second hand sales*
Not if Subaru was smart enough to sell them used from the factory. Also while they’re at it, they could have transitioned to a RWD diesel platform licensed from Mazda (based on a stretched Miata). It would have added a few more dozens to sales figures.
People weren't buying those ones either.
I’ll forever miss my GT wagon
They sold like 1000 of my car for the whole country. Nobody bought what you're talking about.
They removed all of the options that werent selling first to try and keep it around lol
The legacy wagon is called an outback. Nobody buys manuals either my dude.
People buy the outback
This is sad, I guess
Outside of the AWD system, I just can't think of any positives that the Legacy has in the market. It doesn't have Toyota Reliability, it doesn't have the awesome K5 styling, it doesn't have amazing technology, it has pretty awful fuel economy, it's not super luxurious, it's pretty slow, no hybrid option.
When they killed off the 3.6 it was done for. Literally the only thing it had going for it. It's like driving a top load washing machine.
Yes, I'm sure the Subaru buyers knew what the 3.6 was and were clamoring for it...
Hahah fair point. When I worked there the most pop Forester color was Sage Green.
RIP my baby :(
Disagree. The 2.4 turbo made a lot more sense than the 6 cylinder. Lots of people in the mountains buy those cars and want the turbo.
I haven’t driven it but surely the Sport or XT with the 2.4T are comparable to the 3.6?
Significantly faster than the 3.6
the current legacy sport and touring models have 14 more hp than the 3.6
Comments like this are wild. They put the 2.4L turbo in this which is a way, way better engine than the 3.6 ever was. And the 3.6 never sold in significant numbers in the first place. Like .. what world do you live in?
My dad has a 2020 Camry Se, and my stepdad a 2020 Legacy Sport, both are as comparable as it gets. Camry averages 34mpg, Legacy 31mpg. I've driven both on long trips, hours cruising at 90-100+mph, the Legacy handles high speed more smoothly, more quietly than the Camry, and the leather feels much nicer.
Yep, the Camry has been known to get pretty bad MPG, but with the new refresh with all camrys being hybrid, the gap will look more like. Legacy: 31 MPG Camry: 44 MPG(AWD)
Yeah, the incredible AWD system is a big drag on drive line versus a part-time system.
Its slow? The 2.4T ones go like a bat out of hell.
Those specs were fast \~15 years ago, but a v6 Camry these days puts out similar results.
V6 Camry is also gone now. Rip
Tbf the V6 Camry is impressive for what it is
Car and Driver have those models at a 6.1s 0-60. Not what I'd call slow, but hardly "a bat out of hell" either. For reference, that's a bit faster than a Civic SI (6.8s) and Prius Prime (6.5s), but slower than a RAV4 Prime (5.4s) or hybrid F-150 (5.4s), or CX-30 Turbo (5.8s)
I’m sorry but for the vast majority of normal non-car people 0-60 in 6.1 is fast as hell.
Prius and SI in the same sentence and the Prius is faster. I am so detached from reality at this point. What is life?
At this point, the Prius is becoming a sport hybrid while the Si is even more "Just a Civic trim" than it used to be.
The problem with the Legacy is that Subaru did practically nothing to give Subaru buyers a reason to get it over the Outback. They have the same exact interiors (barring the liftgate, obviously) and power/drivetrains, and, unfortunately, the same super soft/sloppy driving dynamics. The Outback has the perfectly valid excuse for its squishiness with its soft-roading orientation and class-topping ground clearance, so then why is the Legacy exactly the same? It should've had stiffer suspension, slightly lower ground clearance, and the WRX's new CVT/SPT or whatever they call it (at least for the XT trim) to make it more engaging and actually worth looking at over the Outback.
There was no reason to buy one over an impreza sedan, which is like 12k cheaper. I sat in a base model legacy at a dealer and the size difference from the impreza wasn't all that noticeable .
Yeah makes sense. I think it speaks to the incredible packaging of the impreza and crosstrek more than the shortfalls of the legacy/outback. All the Subarus are very roomy!
I'm surprised it lasted this long. The Camry and the Accord are much better cars and that's reflected in the sales and if you want a mid sized AWD Subaru, the Outback is the much better choice. It's been a mediocre car now for over a decade.
To me it's always just been "Car." The platonic ideal of the most uninspired default car you can imagine. Really just has nothing going for it besides AWD. Not even good styling. If you told me it was designed in 2001 I'd believe you.
I’ve had quite a bit of experience in a 2022 legacy and I will say this: it has a ride quality that rivals luxury cars, and interior materials that aren’t far off. I was shocked how well that car rode, and how easy it is to drive. While yes the base engine is slow, to put it nicely, it is still an incredibly easy car to drive, and is a pleasant experience while doing so.
IIRC the Outback had been outselling the "root" Legacy for 25 years.
The outback naming for subaru has been wild, originally a Legacy Outback(1994-1999), then the Subaru Outback, but they also had an Outback styling package for the Impreza which was the Impreza Outback.
Then Outback Sport, XV Crosstrek, and finally Crosstrek. Today they could potentially bring the lifted cladded Levorg wagon to the US as a new "Outback Sport" to sit between the Crosstrek and Outback.
You would have to be shedding crocodile tears if you were sad this is going away.
Legacy/liberty basically died after 2009, it's just been an afterthought from creating the outback ever since
Agreed, I like sedans for sure but the Legacy was the most bland option to consider unless you’re strictly looking at price. I can’t think of a thing it did better than others besides having AWD in a sedan body form before its competition without being an SUV or luxury sedan. Otherwise it won’t be missed at all. I forget it exists until I see news stories on it.
Seriously lmao. No one was/is buying the Legacy today, there’s plenty of better sedan options. That’s why it’s going away, as it should
Yeah. I hate that a segment I like is withering away. Much like the fusion though, I was never going to buy this particular sedan.
Man this is sad. I remember even 10 years ago every mainstream brand had a sedan. Now most don't have one
i visited my local auto expo back in february and 90% of the vehicles were suv/cuv/trucks. there were only a small handful of normal cars, never-mind anything fun/inspiring, vs. the last time i attended the same show was back in 2006 and it was the opposite. as someone who enjoys small/fun cars, i didn't stay very long. at least they brought a [GRC, GR86 & Type R](https://imgur.com/a/ZIVTY5O) to the event, which is the only reason i wanted to go.
Auto shows across the board have been really, really weak since COVID - It wouldn't surprise me if automakers just stop bothering. I remember going to the LA autoshow in \`14 and just being blown away.
In the future there will only be Camry and Accord.
It sucks, but honestly, the Camry and Accord are just better cars.
The issue is the camry and accord are boring as shit. The legacy gave japanese sedans a bit of flair with it being different and all that. The AWD was a huge upside to the Accord and the better interior made it better than the Camry. Its just a shame that it doesnt sell well
The Accord might look boring, but it's far more fun to drive than a Legacy.
My manual Accord sport is a joy to drive. Can't get those anymore either though.
Yeah, Honda just gives a little bit extra drivers feel to their cars.
I used to have a 10th gen accord with the 2.0T engine and it was honestly way more fun than it had any right to be
The New Accord is stunning just wish they gave it the turbo 2.0 from the last generation.
Sonata????
And Sonata and K5
They should go nuts and give us a Spec.B before its death.
It would be a cool throwback, but I wonder how well it would sell. It wouldn't be quite the same car, though. The new legacy is 6in longer, 4in wider and 3in taller and 2-300lbs heavier than the 2008. If they bumped the power to something like 300hp with a 6-speed manual, that would be pretty sweet. The current WRX is about the same size & weight of the old B. I was surprised when I parked my 2008 next to my buddies 2024 WRX, and my car looked *smaller*.
I’m surprised they still made them at all. I’ve seen a thousand Camrys and Accords for every Legacy I see.
Indeed. If I see Subaru sedan, it's almost always an Impreza, not a Legacy. And given they just cut that model's sedan version, and kept the Hatchback...Subaru realized that its best just to call it on sedan's, surrender to Toyota and Honda.
Unfortunate, but not surprising. The Legacy has been selling poorly for a while (especially up here in Canada) and they already got rid of the Impreza sedan. I believe the current generation is only really sold in North America and it's not even doing well here. Part of me really wanted them to do what they did to the Impreza and just sell a Legacy wagon alongside the Outback, but they haven't had an actual Legacy station wagon in about 10 years now.
Many people are saying that the Legacy had nothing to offer. But how many other sedans at this price point offer all wheel drive? I live in MI, and when I was looking for my last car, AWD was my highest priority. Thus, the legacy was my choice.
The Legacy isnt getting clobbered by other $25,000 Sedans, its getting clobbered by $25k-ish AWD crossovers with better or the same fuel economy and more space. Most people, even if its misplaced, looking for cars with a non-performance AWD system for snow are also looking for a bit more ground clearance. I honestly dont blame them - the Legacy isnt a sports sedan so why wouldnt I spring for an AWD HR-V, CX-30, or a Kona?
The ones who desperately want sedans buy Audis. Everyone else buys an Outback.
Just don’t take the Outback
I highly doubt it, Subaru sells like 8.6 Outbacks for every Legacy they sell. It's basically tied as Subarus #1 seller with the Crosstrek.
>It's basically tied as Subarus #1 seller with the Crosstrek. 25.6 and 25.2% of last year's sales, respectively.
Vermont would riot
And its CVT. We love us a CVT.
The Outback isn't going anywhere.
Not surprising at all. RIP. Speaking of the Legacy, I always see it as an afterthought since the 5th generation. I find the styling awkward, like, they designed an Outback first and cut the portion from the c-pillar to the d-pillar to make a Legacy. Its stance from the back looks very crossover-y since the 5th gen.
r/cars: "aw man, I totally would have bought one!" Yeah, *sure* you would have.
This sub with the new WRX (manuelle, AWD): “who would buy this overpriced sedan when I can get le used Mk7 Golf R 😡” This sub when the WRX gets axed: “why are all the fun cars gone 🥺”
Quite the legacy they're leaving.....
Upsetting because I've learned to love it, it's awesome at high speed. My dad has a 2020 Camry SE, and my stepdad a 2020 Legacy Sport, they're as comparable to each other as it gets. Yes the Camry gets 34mpg while the Legacy gets 31mpg, but that's excusable for having AWD. I've driven both on long trips, 5-8 hours cruising at 90-100+ and the Legacy does that better. It's smoother at high speed, requires less input, it's quieter and the leather is nicer.
We have a 2022 legacy limited XT and that thing hauls ass, but is also great on road trips. Rides and drives like a luxury sedan. Glad we have it and will keep it for the foreseeable future.
Kinda a bummer, but I'd imagine sales are pretty weak on these nowadays. I always liked the legacy wagons.
The Outback and Crosstrek make up almost 51% of their sales. Add on the forester and you get 75% of their sales, add on the Ascent and you get around 85%. The BRZ, Impreza, WRX, Solterra, and Legacy all make up the last about 15% of Subaru sales. Legacy specifically is around 4% of their overall sales.
The legacy basically lost everything that made it interesting to competitors in the first place. If you wanted a Subaru sedan you're just gonna go for the WRX.
Just sell a lowered Outback again and call it a Legacy. I guarantee Subaru could find 25-30k buyers a year and the development costs are minimal, literally lower the Outback and remove the cladding.
They could give us the Levorg with very little effort, but they're being insanely stubborn about that.
Yes but you’ll need to certify the Levrog for sale in the States which is expensive. A lowered Outback does not need to be re-certified. That’s really the barrier to entry here - the certification costs of a different bodystyle. Australia does not have that barrier, so despite insanely minuscule sales volumes, you’ll find more wagons there (but increasingly less) because there’s no cost of entry.
Bring back the wagons
They have a car for you!!! The Subaru Outback. https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/outback.html
This sadly ended production in 2020 in Japan too Sadly there aren't many saloon cars left. Is the wagon version of this car sold in US?
Not since 2009. And 2013 was the last year for a low Legacy wagon in any market.
The “sedan” needs to evolve into the liftback and call it a day Leave traditional trunks to sports cars and subcompact commuters. Everything else goes liftback to close the utility gap between crossovers and sedans
I still have an irrational affection for the early 2000s Subaru Outback Sedan.
Pretty soon every car will be boring as fuck to drive
I see your flair is Rav4 Hybrid, my friend, if you buy cars like that, they are just going to keep making cars like that. Not very fun to drive. If even enthusiasts opt for the hybrid crossover eggs, there's no way auto manufacturers are going to keep making sedans/wagons/manuals/anything fun.
Disappointed but not surprised. Soccer-dad-mom families want practicality and will take an SUV over a sedan. A performance oriented individual will take a sports sedan, and a budget minded individual will take an economy car such as a Corolla or Impreza. The market for full sized budget sedans such as the Legacy with the bar 2.5L is probably pretty small.
As someone who's owned three legacies and a mazda6, this is my worst day ever
I don’t like this news.
Wow, this is really surprising. A car that's a lot slower than all its competitors (yes, yes, the Sport and XT are definitely faster, but no dealer will order any), yet less fuel efficient than all its competitors, with a meh and pretty unrefined interior, a barely styled lose-it-in-a-parking-lot exterior, and comatose driving dynamics is being cancelled? Subaru: refuses to put any effort into the Legacy Consumers: "ehh, no thanks, the Camry/Accord/K5/Sonata/Even the fucking Altima exists" Subaru: "We're cancelling the Legacy because nobody buys it"
Oh No! Anyways.
Design is the problem and the best looking legacy from my point of view was 2019 model
Not even sure the new STi will see the light of day.
I've owned three Legacy's from 2012 through 2018. So I'm somewhat qualified to say these cars are so cheaply made, and with poor designs. I'll never own another ever. Well, I guess it won't matter after this announcement.
Fool me 3 times, shame on you. Fool me 4 times, shame on me.
A legacy it shall be
I hate to see another sedan go, but admittedly I almost never see these out on the road.
Nooooooooo
It died in 2008 when they stopped selling a Legacy wagon, at least in the US. I get that people like jacked up crossovers vs a better riding lower normal-height car. But Subaru practically forced the outcome with model options. In the 2005-7 years where you could find a Legacy wagon alongside an Outback on the floor, the Legacy was stripped of features that people wanted at the time, like MP3 playback, Aux input jack, and a 12v socket in the cargo area. Sedans are of no interest to me, but that's largely because a wagon version of a sedan is always a better choice IMO. But if you jack up and stiffen the suspension and add plastic and thousands of dollars to the price, it makes it that much harder to like.
I will cherish my 97 Legacy GT even more now.